Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	authority_n	church_n	see_v	1,737	5	3.7569	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88948	A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.	1647 (1647)	Wing M1275; Thomason E386_9; ESTC R201478	144,474	133

as_o we_o see_v that_o in_o some_o case_n one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o ordination_n whereupon_o it_o must_v needs_o follow_v either_o that_o one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o any_o authoritative_a call_n or_o else_o that_o ordination_n be_v in_o effect_n but_o the_o same_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o so_o there_o be_v no_o such_o difference_n between_o they_o as_o be_v pretend_v but_o so_o many_o pastor_n send_v a_o pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o answ_n take_v your_o own_o word_n for_o answer_n pag._n 496._o we_o never_o read_v that_o in_o the_o apostle_n church_n a_o man_n be_v obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n and_o therefore_o election_n by_o the_o people_n in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n as_o act._n 1._o 26._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o rev._n 2._o 1_o 2._o act._n 20._o v._n 28._o must_v be_v our_o rule_n any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n as_o act._n 6._o 5._o it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o pag._n 465._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o all_o incorporation_n have_v power_n by_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n to_o choose_v their_o own_o ruler_n and_o officer_n and_o that_o christ_n have_v provide_v the_o same_o in_o a_o eminant_a manner_n for_o his_o church_n and_o therefore_o for_o this_o passage_n that_o many_o pastor_n may_v send_v a_o pastor_n to_o be_v pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o we_o desire_v that_o he_o will_v take_v his_o own_o money_n for_o payment_n chap._n xxv_o whether_o a_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o election_n or_o in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o whether_o of_o those_o be_v great_a and_o whether_o be_v prior_n or_o posterior_n whether_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o act._n 13._o 1_o 2_o 3._o do_v prove_v that_o the_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o presbytery_n and_o that_o such_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o a_o consumatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n also_o whether_o rom._n 10._o 15._o do_v prove_v that_o a_o man_n can_v be_v a_o minister_n except_o some_o presbytery_n ordain_v he_o afore_o the_o people_n choose_v he_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o the_o people_n do_v send_v a_o minster_n to_o themselves_o and_o whether_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v not_o aswell_o discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n to_o be_v ordain_v as_o his_o fitness_n to_o be_v elect_v pag_n 493._o if_o the_o people_n may_v elect_v officer_n then_o in_o some_o case_n they_o may_v ordain_v they_o also_o because_o ordination_n be_v less_o than_o election_n and_o depend_v upon_o it_o as_o a_o necessary_a antecedent_n and_o it_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o consummation_n of_o election_n or_o the_o admission_n of_o a_o person_n into_o the_o possession_n of_o that_o office_n whereto_o he_o have_v right_o before_o by_o election_n if_o then_o a_o single_a congregation_n may_v elect_v which_o be_v the_o great_a they_o may_v ordain_v which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o for_o this_o he_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 46_o 47._o and_o then_o give_v answer_v thereto_o in_o these_o word_n ordination_n be_v the_o more_o and_o election_n the_o lesser_a for_o ordination_n be_v a_o act_n authoritative_a of_o the_o presbytery_n 1._o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n take_v ordination_n as_o we_o take_v it_o for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n on_o a_o church_n officer_n and_o then_o we_o think_v it_o be_v less_o than_o election_n as_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n use_v at_o a_o minister_n entrance_n into_o his_o office_n but_o not_o at_o all_o of_o the_o essence_n thereof_o nor_o be_v we_o alone_o or_o the_o first_o that_o have_v so_o think_v for_o to_o omit_v other_o he_o that_o write_v the_o book_n call_v the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la affirm_v pag._n 114._o that_o it_o be_v no_o essential_a but_o a_o ceremonial_a part_n of_o ordination_n which_o may_v be_v sufficient_o make_v without_o it_o and_o say_v that_o angelus_n de_fw-fr clavasio_n peter_n martyr_n and_o other_o both_o papist_n and_o protestant_n affirm_v the_o same_o and_o in_o pag._n 116._o he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o service_n or_o ministry_n not_o of_o authority_n and_o no_o more_o than_o a_o external_a compliment_n or_o ceremony_n allege_v dr._n ames_n &_o other_o for_o the_o same_o tenant_n but_o now_o election_n be_v more_o than_o a_o ceremony_n that_o may_v be_v omit_v mr._n rutherford_n himself_o be_v judge_n for_o in_o his_o pag._n 496._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n a_o minister_n be_v never_o obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n but_o that_o they_o still_o have_v the_o election_n of_o their_o minister_n and_o this_o he_o say_v must_v be_v our_o rule_n so_o that_o any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o p._n 202._o he_o tell_v we_o out_o of_o chrysostome_n that_o all_o election_n of_o pastor_n be_v null_a without_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o people_n whereby_o it_o seem_v that_o election_n be_v something_o essential_a and_o so_o consequent_o more_o than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n which_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n which_o may_v be_v absent_a and_o yet_o a_o man_n have_v all_o the_o essentials_n of_o a_o minister_n notwithstanding_o as_o for_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n there_o speak_v of_o i_o conceive_v can_v not_o be_v any_o act_n of_o superior_a authority_n but_o only_o a_o approbatory_a sign_n or_o rite_n which_o may_v be_v use_v by_o inferior_n towards_o your_o superior_n for_o timothy_n be_v a_o evangelist_n how_o can_v any_o ordinary_a presbytery_n have_v authority_n over_o he_o or_o give_v office_n or_o authority_n to_o he_o beside_o it_o be_v not_o say_v that_o timothy_n receive_v his_o gift_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o by_o the_o prophecy_n and_o by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o paul_n hand_n and_o with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n now_o between_o those_o two_o phrase_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o hand_n and_o with_o the_o same_o there_o be_v great_a difference_n the_o one_o import_v some_o cause_n or_o authority_n or_o power_n the_o other_o import_v no_o more_o but_o a_o approbatory_a rite_n or_o a_o sign_n use_v in_o a_o solemn_a commend_v of_o one_o to_o god_n by_o prayer_n altar_n damascen_n pag._n 161._o of_o which_o more_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o the_o plea_n for_o the_o church_n in_o new_a england_n part_n of_o the_o second_o chap._n 12._o quest_n 2_o 4._o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o author_n may_v argue_v thus_o the_o people_n may_v ordain_v ergo_fw-la they_o may_v preach_v and_o baptise_v for_o all_o the_o three_o be_v presbyterial_a act_n give_v to_o man_n in_o office_n answ_n we_o read_v in_o mornay_n de_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la chap._n ●_o that_o of_o old_a time_n it_o be_v a_o argument_n rise_v in_o the_o church_n he_o may_v baptise_v he_o may_v administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n but_o such_o argue_v as_o mr_n rutherford_n use_v they_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v baptise_v this_o we_o remember_v not_o that_o we_o have_v read_v in_o any_o author_n except_o in_o he_o nor_o do_v we_o think_v the_o consequence_n the_o same_o inasmuch_o as_o in_o the_o one_o the_o argument_n proceed_v from_o the_o great_a to_o the_o less_o and_o in_o the_o other_o from_o the_o less_o to_o the_o great_a and_o yet_o affirmative_o in_o both_o thus_o the_o argument_n be_v understand_v by_o the_o forename_a author_n of_o the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la who_o in_o pag._n 100_o speak_v of_o these_o word_n of_o mornay_n lay_v down_o the_o argument_n thus_o he_o can_v baptise_v he_o can_v consecrate_v and_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n which_o be_v the_o great_a and_o more_o honourable_a action_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o this_o kind_n of_o argue_v for_o my_o part_n i_o think_v to_o be_v good_a but_o for_o that_o of_o mr._n rutherford_n i_o see_v no_o more_o consequence_n therein_o then_o if_o one_o shall_v say_v he_o that_o may_v do_v the_o lesser_a may_v do_v the_o great_a also_o in_o which_o i_o see_v no_o strength_n of_o consequence_n at_o all_o pag._n 493_o 494._o whereas_o some_o say_v act._n 6._o 3_o 4_o 5._o election_n of_o seven_o man_n to_o be_v deacon_n go_v before_o ordination_n or_o imposition_n of_o hand_n v_o 6._o answ_n election_n of_o the_o people_n go_v before_o ordination_n in_o the_o

with_o that_o scripture_n either_o for_o one_o purpose_n or_o another_o and_o therefore_o can_v be_v true_o say_v to_o have_v use_v the_o word_n allege_v in_o way_n of_o clear_n doubt_n concern_v the_o same_o and_o albeit_o in_o another_o place_n cap._n 3._o pag._n 22._o et_fw-la sequ_fw-la i_o do_v purposely_o speak_v to_o that_o scripture_n yet_o in_o that_o place_n there_o be_v no_o mention_n at_o all_o of_o the_o word_n by_o he_o allege_v nor_o of_o any_o such_o like_a and_o where_o such_o word_n be_v to_o be_v find_v there_o that_o scripture_n be_v not_o mention_v at_o all_o now_o who_o know_v not_o that_o a_o man_n may_v be_v much_o wrong_v when_o the_o word_n which_o he_o have_v speak_v be_v take_v and_o apply_v to_o such_o a_o purpose_n for_o which_o he_o do_v never_o bring_v they_o nor_o intend_v they_o but_o to_o let_v this_o pass_v let_v we_o hear_v what_o our_o reverend_a author_n say_v against_o the_o word_n allege_v in_o his_o answer_n the_o cause_n of_o appeal_v say_v he_o be_v not_o because_o inferior_a judicature_n may_v err_v for_o so_o we_o may_v appeal_v from_o all_o judicature_n even_o from_o a_o general_a council_n for_o it_o may_v err_v pag._n 315._o lin_v ult_n answ_n be_v not_o this_o the_o very_a same_o that_o be_v say_v in_o the_o answer_n pag._n 13_o 14._o the_o page_n which_o he_o here_o undertake_v to_o answer_v be_v it_o not_o there_o say_v as_o for_o classicaticall_a provincial_n and_o national_n synod_n there_o be_v none_o of_o these_o but_o those_o case_n of_o deficiency_n and_o possibility_n of_o partiality_n may_v befall_v the_o best_a of_o they_o and_o therefore_o if_o for_o these_o cause_v the_o single_a congregation_n may_v not_o be_v independent_a but_o there_o may_v be_v appeal_v from_o they_o the_o synod_n be_v subject_n to_o the_o like_a there_o may_v be_v liberty_n of_o appeal_v from_o they_o also_o for_o as_o the_o congregation_n may_v be_v partial_a and_o err_v so_o we_o suppose_v it_o will_v not_o be_v deny_v but_o the_o classis_fw-la may_v err_v the_o provincial_n synod_n may_v err_v the_o national_n may_v err_v yea_o general_a council_n may_v err_v and_o so_o by_o this_o reason_n not_o synod_n nor_o general_a council_n may_v have_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n but_o there_o may_v be_v liberty_n of_o appeal_v from_o they_o also_o these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o those_o very_a page_n which_o here_o mr._n rutherford_n pretend_v to_o answer_n and_o disprove_v or_o confute_v but_o in_o stead_n of_o a_o confutation_n we_o see_v we_o have_v nothing_o but_o a_o plain_a confession_n or_o affirmation_n of_o his_o own_o that_o the_o thing_n be_v even_o so_o as_o be_v affirm_v by_o we_o before_o now_o why_o he_o shall_v make_v a_o show_n of_o take_v away_o or_o weak'n_a that_n which_o we_o have_v say_v and_o then_o in_o stead_n of_o accomplish_v what_o he_o undertake_v to_o do_v no_o more_o but_o only_o to_o say_v the_o same_o thing_n again_o which_o we_o have_v say_v before_o what_o reason_n i_o say_v he_o have_v for_o this_o i_o know_v not_o but_o plain_a it_o be_v that_o for_o the_o particular_a in_o hand_n the_o answer_n which_o he_o pretend_v to_o weaken_v be_v not_o yet_o weaken_v at_o all_o but_o rather_o strengthen_v and_o confirm_v by_o his_o apparent_a yield_v the_o cause_n and_o affirm_v the_o same_o that_o be_v before_o affirm_v by_o we_o but_o say_v he_o pag._n 316._o the_o true_a cause_n viz._n of_o appeal_n to_o high_a court_n be_v 1._o because_o they_o do_v not_o so_o frequent_o err_v 2._o they_o be_v not_o so_o incline_v and_o dispose_v to_o err_v for_o many_o eye_n see_v more_o than_o one_o and_o do_v more_o seldom_o miscarry_v in_o take_v up_o the_o right_a object_n 3._o because_o we_o conceive_v more_o equality_n and_o less_o partiality_n in_o high_a court_n answ_n these_o three_o reason_n seem_v much_o what_o the_o same_o or_o to_o hang_v one_o upon_o another_o for_o therefore_o they_o do_v more_o seldom_o err_v because_o they_o be_v not_o so_o dispose_v and_o incline_v to_o err_v and_o they_o be_v not_o so_o incline_v because_o they_o be_v more_o in_o number_n and_o because_o there_o be_v in_o they_o more_o equality_n and_o less_o partiality_n so_o that_o upon_o the_o matter_n it_o be_v but_o one_o reason_n viz._n because_o though_o they_o may_v err_v yet_o not_o so_o frequent_o and_o likely_a as_o the_o congregation_n yet_o be_v they_o three_o reason_n or_o be_v they_o but_o one_o let_v we_o consider_v what_o force_n there_o be_v in_o this_o sa●ing_n to_o take_v away_o entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n from_o a_o congregation_n and_o to_o establish_v the_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o the_o same_o unto_o a_o synod_n for_o this_o be_v the_o thing_n that_o shall_v be_v clear_v first_o of_o all_o it_o may_v be_v a_o question_n whether_o synod_n do_v more_o seldom_o err_v then_o the_o presbytery_n of_o congregation_n and_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o doubt_n be_v because_o the_o promise_n of_o the_o presence_n of_o ch●●st_n be_v not_o make_v mere_o to_o multitude_n or_o greatness_n of_o number_n but_o if_o they_o be_v but_o two_o or_o three_o gather_v together_o in_o his_o name_n his_o promise_n be_v that_o he_o will_v be_v present_a in_o the_o midst_n of_o they_o math._n 18._o 20._o now_o the_o promise_n of_o his_o presence_n be_v to_o so_o small_a a_o number_n gather_v together_o in_o his_o name_n why_o may_v not_o a_o congregation_n and_o its_o presbytery_n be_v so_o gather_v though_o they_o be_v a_o lesser_a number_n than_o synod_n and_o counsel_n yet_o be_v partaker_n of_o the_o benefit_n of_o this_o promise_n for_o the_o preserve_n of_o they_o from_o error_n as_o well_o as_o those_o great_a assembly_n 〈…〉_z not_o but_o in_o multitude_n of_o counsellor_n there_o be_v safety_n nor_o do_v i_o doubt_v but_o synod_n and_o council●_n gather_v together_o in_o the_o name_n of_o christ_n may_v expect_v the_o per●●●●ance_n of_o this_o promise_n of_o our_o saviour_n presence_n but_o the_o thing_n i_o doubt_v of_o be_v this_o whether_o a_o congregationall_a church_n of_o saint_n furnish_v with_o a_o able_a and_o faithful_a presbytery_n for_o of_o such_o only_o do_v i_o speak_v may_v not_o by_o virtue_n of_o this_o promise_n be_v as_o frequent_o preserve_v fro●_n error_n as_o those_o great_a assembly_n of_o synod_n and_o council_n posito_fw-la that_o the_o synod_n and_o council_n do_v as_o frequent_o come_v together_o as_o the_o congregation_n do_v for_o otherwise_o i_o grant_v the_o synod_n meet_v more_o seldom_o may_v err_v more_o seldom_o but_o let_v the_o comparison_n be_v equal_a in_o respect_n of_o the_o time_n of_o assemble_v and_o come_v together_o and_o then_o i_o doubt_v whether_o synod_n 〈◊〉_d preserve_v from_o error_n any_o often_o than_o the_o forementioned_a lesser_a assembly_n it_o be_v well_o know_v what_o n●zianzen_n say_v of_o synod_n or_o council_n in_o his_o time_n viz._n that_o he_o have_v never_o see_v good_a and_o happy_a end_n of_o any_o of_o they_o and_o that_o evil_n be_v not_o so_o much_o redress_v as_o increase_v thereby_o epist_n ad_fw-la procop●um_fw-la quae_fw-la est_fw-la numere_fw-la 42._o refer_v whitak_n de_fw-fr concill_n q._n 1._o cap._n 3._o true_a it_o be_v nazianzen_n live_v as_o dr._n whi●●●_n observe_v pessimis_fw-la &_o turbulentissimia_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la temporibus_fw-la in_o very_o corrupt_a and_o troublesome_a titue_n when_o by_o reason_n that_o valens_n the_o emperor_n be_v averse_a from_o the_o truth_n heretic_n much_o prevail_v and_o corruption_n great_o increase_v and_o this_o may_v make_v the_o good_a man_n something_o more_o to_o dislike_v all_o council_n then_o there_o be_v cause_n nevertheless_o his_o word_n do_v apparent_o witness_v that_o in_o his_o time_n synod_n and_o council_n do_v not_o seldom_o err_v but_o very_o often_o so_o that_o he_o for_o his_o part_n have_v never_o see_v good_a that_o have_v come_v by_o any_o of_o they_o then_o which_o saying_n i_o suppose_v one_o will_v not_o speak_v more_o hardly_o of_o a_o particular_a congregation_n and_o its_o presbytery_n and_o therefore_o by_o this_o testimony_n of_o his_o my_o doubt_n be_v increase_v whether_o the_o matter_n be_v in_o 〈…〉_z mr._n rutherford_n do_v say_v viz._n that_o synod_n and_o council_n do_v rariùs_fw-la erra●●_n more_o seldom_o err_v then_o such_o a_o particular_a congregation_n as_o here_o i_o be_o speak_v of_o but_o suppose_v it_o be_v so_o as_o he_o do_v affirm_v and_o i_o will_v not_o deny_v it_o only_o as_o i_o say_v i_o doubt_v of_o it_o yet_o i_o do_v not_o see_v what_o great_a matter_n he_o can_v gain_v thereby_o for_o the_o further_a of_o his_o purpose_n that_o there_o must_v be_v liberty_n of_o appeal_v from_o particular_a congregation_n unto_o class_n and_o synod_n as_o unto_o high_a court_n for_o if_o this_o be_v the_o reason_n 〈◊〉_d

his_o page_n 482._o allege_v mr._n tompson_n and_o i_o pag._n 16_o 17._o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v that_o though_o some_o have_v appeal_v as_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n from_o the_o pope_n to_o a_o general_a council_n yet_o not_o from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n answ_n as_o he_o one_o of_o these_o page_n have_v nothing_o at_o all_o concern_v this_o matter_n and_o therefore_o may_v well_o have_v be_v spare_v so_o neither_o of_o they_o both_o do_v make_v any_o mention_n of_o luther_n either_o of_o one_o purpose_n or_o other_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v some_o marvel_n why_o he_o shall_v be_v mention_v as_o thus_o speak_v of_o by_o we_o who_o do_v not_o speak_v of_o he_o at_o all_o so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n for_o any_o purpose_n whatsoever_o nor_o do_v the_o rest_n of_o the_o word_n of_o appeal_n from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n agree_v with_o we_o as_o we_o have_v set_v they_o down_o in_o the_o 16._o page_n allege_v and_o therefore_o that_o our_o mind_n and_o meaning_n may_v appear_v let_v i_o relate_v our_o own_o word_n which_o be_v these_o how_o this_o example_n sc_n of_o cramners_n appeal_n to_o council_n relate_v by_o mr._n fox_n do_v suit_n the_o present_a question_n we_o do_v not_o understand_v for_o his_o appeal_n be_v not_o from_o a_o particular_a congregation_n but_o from_o the_o pope_n nor_o be_v it_o from_o a_o synod_n but_o to_o the_o next_o general_a council_n which_o from_o that_o day_n to_o this_o have_v not_o yet_o be_v assemble_v nor_o call_v if_o we_o must_v hold_v a_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n to_o such_o a_o judicatory_a as_o cranmer_n appeal_v unto_o than_o the_o supremacy_n of_o synod_n provincial_a and_o national_a be_v utter_o take_v away_o these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o the_o place_n allege_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n now_o what_o do_v he_o answer_v thereto_o in_o matter_n doctrinal_a say_v he_o some_o as_o luther_n and_o other_o have_v just_o appeal_v from_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n though_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n do_v it_o not_o answ_n say_v it_o be_v true_a that_o cranmer_n do_v it_o not_o yet_o for_o luther_n how_o can_v it_o be_v that_o he_o shall_v be_v a_o instance_n both_o of_o such_o as_o do_v it_o not_o and_o of_o such_o as_o do_v it_o for_o luther_n and_o other_o have_v just_o do_v it_o and_o yet_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n be_v two_o of_o they_o that_o do_v it_o not_o these_o be_v saying_n which_o seem_v not_o to_o agree_v again_o if_o luther_n do_v so_o appeal_v why_o be_v no_o proof_n allege_v for_o confirmation_n of_o what_o here_o be_v affirm_v which_o if_o there_o have_v be_v we_o may_v have_v consider_v thereof_o but_o since_o there_o be_v not_o we_o may_v be_v allow_v to_o forbear_v assent_n till_o that_o which_o be_v here_o naked_o affirm_v be_v further_o strengthen_v by_o some_o proof_n or_o other_o to_o make_v it_o good_a last_o if_o luther_n or_o other_o have_v just_o appeal_v from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n then_o why_o will_v it_o not_o be_v lawful_a for_o other_o upon_o like_a occasion_n to_o do_v the_o like_a and_o if_o so_o then_o as_o we_o argue_v in_o the_o answer_n the_o supremacy_n of_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n presbytery_n be_v utter_o take_v away_o and_o so_o by_o this_o mean_n cause_n and_o controversy_n may_v still_o be_v depend_v and_o never_o come_v to_o be_v determine_v so_o long_o as_o this_o world_n shall_v endure_v which_o whether_o it_o be_v agreeable_a to_o the_o wisdom_n of_o christ_n and_o good_a of_o his_o people_n let_v the_o wise_a judge_n though_o very_o i_o profess_v i_o can_v see_v what_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n can_v be_v in_o a_o general_a council_n there_o may_v be_v some_o mere_o doctrinal_a power_n if_o such_o a_o council_n can_v be_v have_v and_o that_o be_v all_o answ_n for_o my_o part_n i_o be_o altogether_o of_o the_o same_o mind_n but_o here_o i_o have_v a_o quere_z or_o two_o to_o propose_v to_o our_o reverend_a brother_n serious_a consideration_n first_o of_o all_o how_o this_o passage_n do_v agree_v with_o that_o which_o himself_o have_v write_v pag._n 387._o where_o he_o say_v it_o may_v be_v make_v good_a that_o a_o power_n dogmatic_a be_v not_o different_a in_o nature_n from_o a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o that_o we_o read_v not_o of_o any_o society_n which_o have_v power_n to_o meet_v to_o make_v law_n and_o decree_n which_o have_v not_o power_n also_o to_o back_v their_o decree_n with_o punishment_n yea_o he_o say_v further_a that_o if_o the_o jewish_a synodry_n may_v meet_v to_o declare_v judicial_o what_o be_v god_n law_n in_o point_n of_o conscience_n and_o what_o not_o far_o more_o may_v they_o punish_v contravener_n of_o the_o law_n for_o anomothetick_a power_n in_o a_o society_n which_o be_v the_o great_a power_n and_o be_v in_o the_o fountain_n must_v presuppose_v in_o the_o society_n 〈◊〉_d lesser_a power_n which_o be_v to_o punish_v anomothetick_a power_n ministerial_a can_v want_v a_o power_n of_o censure_v so_o that_o whereto_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o say_v there_o may_v be_v in_o a_o general_a council_n some_o 〈◊〉_d doctrinal_a power_n without_o any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_n in_o this_o other_o place_n he_o say_v these_o power_n do_v not_o differ_v in_o nature_n nor_o can_v the_o former_a be_v without_o the_o latter_a but_o do_v always_o presuppose_v the_o same_o as_o that_o which_o be_v lesser_a and_o which_o it_o can_v want_v now_o how_o these_o thing_n do_v agree_v i_o be_o not_o able_a to_o understand_v next_o of_o all_o how_o do_v this_o passage_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n agree_v with_o that_o which_o be_v write_v p._n 308_o 309._o where_o he_o say_v it_o be_v by_o accident_n and_o not_o through_o want_n of_o inate_a and_o intrinsical_v power_n that_o the_o court_n of_o a_o catholic_n council_n can_v not_o in_o a_o ordinary_a and_o constant_a way_n exercise_v the_o power_n which_o christ_n have_v give_v to_o she_o and_o what_o that_o power_n be_v he_o express_v in_o two_o or_o three_o line_n proceed_v viz._n a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o relax_v from_o excommunication_n even_o national_a church_n if_o the_o lord_n shall_v be_v please_v to_o give_v the_o christian_a church_n a_o general_a council_n this_o day_n may_v lawful_o in_o a_o jurisdictiall_a way_n declare_v the_o faction_n of_o the_o romish_a pretend_v catholic_n to_o be_v mystical_a babylon_n which_o in_o excommunication_n in_o the_o essence_n and_o substance_n of_o the_o act_n and_o again_o this_o of_o our_o saviour_n tell_v the_o church_n be_v necessary_o to_o be_v apply_v to_o all_o church_n and_o court_n of_o christ_n even_o to_o a_o general_a council_n and_o in_o page_n 304._o he_o tell_v in_o that_o a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n though_o he_o call_v it_o extraordinary_a and_o remote_a and_o which_o be_v but_o rare_o to_o be_v put_v forth_o in_o act_n be_v give_v to_o the_o catholic_n visible_a presbytery_n of_o the_o whole_a catholic_n visible_a church_n in_o all_o which_o place_n he_o plain_o affirm_v there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n in_o a_o general_a council_n which_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o do_v as_o plain_o deny_v three_o if_o there_o be_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n in_o a_o general_a council_n then_o how_o shall_v it_o appear_v that_o there_o be_v such_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o the_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n presbytery_n which_o be_v far_o less_o yea_o and_o that_o there_o be_v in_o these_o presbytery_n a_o power_n independent_a and_o supreme_a without_o appeal_n to_o any_o other_o for_o such_o power_n there_o must_v be_v in_o some_o of_o they_o if_o there_o be_v any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o they_o at_o all_o since_o we_o be_v tell_v there_o be_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o the_o general_a council_n to_o appeal_v unto_o now_o how_o shall_v it_o appear_v that_o any_o such_o independent_a supreme_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v give_v to_o any_o of_o those_o presbytery_n where_o be_v the_o text_n of_o scripture_n that_o speak_v of_o such_o power_n for_o our_o part_n we_o know_v of_o none_o but_o do_v still_o think_v that_o this_o power_n be_v place_v by_o christ_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o its_o presbytery_n and_o be_v the_o rather_o strengthen_v in_o this_o apprehension_n for_o that_o the_o reason_n which_o be_v wont_a to_o be_v give_v against_o the_o congregation_n power_n and_o wherein_o our_o brethren_n be_v wont_a to_o place_v their_o great_a strength_n sc_n that_o appeal_n be_v juris_fw-la naturalis_fw-la and_o that_o defect_n in_o the_o part_n be_v to_o be_v supply_v