of Dort and unto Vedelius de Episcopatu Constantini magni who as all men know gives in that booke power enough to Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals yet he layes down at large that as the Anabaptists and Socinians following the Donatists give too little to the Magistrate so the Arminians did offend in the excesse For before the Synod of Dort they contended that under the Orthodox Magistrate the Church had of it selfe no spirituall power The Ministers of the Church did performe their office in the name of the Magistrate so that the Magistrate because he for other businesses could not preach c. he did preach by the Ministers they gave the government of the Church to the Magistrates alone they gave the calling of Ministers and their deposing to the Magistrate alone with many other such but afâ—…er the Synod they denie 't is their right and office to oblige men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods however agreeable to the word or to use any coactive power in that case c. in which they take away as much from the Magistrate as in other things they seemed to give And it may be feared however these Apologists now to ingratiate themselves and being left alone in their Church-way say they give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyteriall and that they professe to submit and to be most willing to have recourse to the Magistrates judgement and cognizance and examination of Ecclesiasticall causes yet when they shall come once to be crossed and the Parliament by the advise of the Assembly to settle the government of the Church and by their authoritie to bind them to the things agreeable to the word we shall see then what they will say of the Magistrates power there are too many speeches alreadie since the meeting of the Assembly out of their feare how things may goe which have fallen from many Independents that prognosticate they will doe by the Parliament as the Remonstrants did after the Synod of Dort by the States 2. But whatever you say here that you think you give more to the Magistrates then the principles of the Presbyterian Government will suffer them to yeeld I doe much doubt it and doe judge that in many things you give no more in Ecclesiasticals then the Presbyterians and in others you give lesse and they give more M. Robinson in his Apologie saith of himselfe and his Church that in the point of the civill Magistrate and his office they hold altogether the same thing which the Belgicke Churches doe and that to their Confession in this point they do ex animo agree Now the Belgick Churches are Presbyterians and your Church-way M. Robinsons differ not much â—…o that till you know what you give more to the civill Magistrate then M. Robinson and his Church doe I cannot beleeve you especially considering that M. Burroughes one of you in his Lectures upon Hosea speaking of the power of Magistrates in Church affaires gives no more to them then the rigidest Presbyterians namely That the King is supreame governour to governe in a civill way by civill Lawes so as to sâ—… Christ not dishonoured so as to keepe out Idolatry to protect the Church to punish enormitios that are there to defind it from enemies In that sense he is said to be the head but that title of supreame Governour being understood in a civill way is more proper Now it were easie out of Beza Calvin Zanchius and many Presbyterians to show more power given to Kings by them in matters of Religion then by M. Burroughes there so that I have more reason to judge of your principles by what M. Burroughes writes particularly and by way of answering doubts of conscience then from a Narrration in generall and from we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld In other things you give not so much to the Magistrates as the Presbyterians First whereas the a Presbyterians doe acknowledge the Protestant Prince and Magistrate an eminent member of the Church and in their greatest Assemblies and Councels give him an eminent place and power you according to your principles doe not owne him for a member of the Church neither shall his children be admitted to Baptisme nor he to the ordinances though a Protestant and Orthodoxe unlesse you account him a visible Saint c. neither doe you give him so much power or vote no not in a particular Church in any Church matters of censures admissions election of officers c. as you doe give to one of your serving men and the supreme Magistrate and his children though brought up and professing the true Religion may be and will be kept from the Sacraments all their dayes 2. The Presbyterians give to the Magistrate a coercive and coactive power to suppresse heresies schisme to correct troublers and unruly persons in the Church to tie and bind men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods made according to the word of God which power as b Voetius showes only the Remonstrants with the Libertines did not admit but all the Presbyterians doe reject such opinions that the Magistrate could not by his authoritie bind and compell men to observe the decrees of Synods conformable to the word of God now doe you allow the Magistrates such a power By your pleading for tolerations of Religion and for liberty of conscience and that conscience is not to be tied and by your speaking against impositions of things lawfull and agreeable to the word as set formes of prayer decreed by Synods and such like 't is very suspitious you allow not such a power to Magistrates and your good friend M. S. in his answer to the observations and considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration pleading your cause denies and pleads against this coercive power of the Magistrate 3. The Presbyterians give a great deale of power to the supreme Christian Magistrate in the Reformation of Religion and in repairing and building the house of God as might be showne out of Calvin Zanchius Peter Martyr c. but whether the Independents give as much when they allow private men to gather and make Churches and Ministers to do such publike workes and that without leave nay against the mind and laws of the supreame Magistrate I question There is a Tractate in my hands about a Church that goes under the name of one of you wherein civill Magistrates are cut off and Ministers too from having any power to make Churches and the immediate Independent power from Christ is given to the Saints onely to gather and combine themselves in such an Assembly without expecting warrant from any Governours what soever upon earth Saints as Saints have a right and full power to cast themselves into the fellowship without asking the consent of Governours and civill Magistrates who have no power in the marriage of their people nor should have it being an act of naturall civill
as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zeppâ—…rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grossâ—… no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without â—…nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to
spirited men and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis and to whom you speake it whom ye call Brownists and why could you not have writ who are commmonly called Brownists Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented and to whom you appeale your discourse being carried as spoken to them and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists calling them so as you would not call them But who are you that you may not speake for so much as concernes this in the language of both Houses if both Houses call them Brownists Why may not you Five terme them so but we may guesse the Reason Mr Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde and you feared lest you might be called so but let me tell you though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well observed in their late book yet the Separatists and all Sectaries may fitly be termed from the Authours and so the Separatists justly called Brownists because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method and writ so for it and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas and therefore both Houses of Parliament and others too may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way Brownists As for that last passage in this Section that last of all We had the recent and laâ—…er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation c. which without so many words you might have said New-England but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come Sure you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place and have writ First of all We had the recent and later example of New-England which wrought to my knowledge with some of you very much and that the purposes and intentions of some of you were first for New-England as you may remember some of you told me One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England and how farre he was hindered or altered by her death he knowes Another of you having sent over goods before and in particular books where he meant to follow after I have a very bad memory if these things be not so A third namely Mr Simpson when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam he alleadged that as a cause that he was intended for New-England but I must examine the Encomium made by you here of New-England and see whether to make it hold the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole the first part of the praise is Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation Are the godly men in New-England so many in number that they are almost the number of another Nation that they doe almost make such another Nation as England then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us are not almost so many here as to make another Nation but it will be found that granting all the men in New-England were godly which yet you dare not affirme seeing multitudes live there without the Church who are not accounted visible Saints yet what are they to so many people as are in England reckon up all the persons in New-England good and bad and list them and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London nay hardly to come to the twentieth part there What are they then in New-England to this whole Kingdome and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church and it is evident your affection is better to New-England then your Arithmeticke and in this particular that Proverbe of Almost must help you But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here 'T is to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way Almost another Nation in New-England and Almost another Nation of your way in old England which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers to grant you a Toleration at least of your Church-way lest you being such multitudes should c. I could tell stories what some of your way have spoken if they might not have their way but I shall spare them now The second part of your praise of New-England is And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred That there are holy and good Divines among them whom I truly love and honour I acknowledge but I judge this too transcendent a phrase and more then befits the words of sobernesse Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred It had been an expression high enough to say as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome but to say as this Kingdome hath bred how know you that and how can you affirm it You were not acquainted with many who lived before being all young men to speake of so that there might be before your times men more judicious and holy and if we may judge by the works of some men and by their lives written and by the reports from good hands of the godly ancient Ministers there were men more judicious and learned then any now in New England as Whitaker Reynolds Brightman and others and more holy as Mr Greenham Mr Banes old Mr. Dod c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent I might say but two and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them both for learning judiciousnesse and piety so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past Take the prime man of them all in new England and yet he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred Doctor Whitakers never held any opinion that was accounted erroneous nor any private peculiar opinion but what was commonly held in the Church of God as it is reported in his life but the most eminent Minister in New-England though he be an excellent and worthy man hath had his errours and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation which is in some of your hands
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
word to hinder the deposing of Mr Ward and so to have prevented so great a scandall and offence as this was To the fifth and last generall head the comparison you make between the effectualnesse and powerfulnesse of your way of submission and non-communion and that of the Presbyterians to awe and preserve Churches and Elders in their duties and to reduce Churches miscarrying where you make the sâ—…ales fall on your side rather I answer Besides some considerable things already hinted under some of the former heads especially under the fourth head which doe shew a wide difference of the effectualnesse and successe which the Presbyterian principles and way hold out over your Congregationall thâ—…e are many other to 〈◊〉 the sâ—…les which I shall now speake of according as 't is laid downe here by you in the 17 18 and 19 pages 1. That you may render your way the more specious and probable you beg the question and take for granted things denied supposing that also which never hath fallen out in the reformed Churches and you speake but to a part of the way and remedie namely excommunication anâ—… from all these false premises you make your conclusion You lay downe your way of submission and non-communion 〈◊〉 that â—…ch is the 〈◊〉 and way of Christ and to be strictly enjoyned by Christ â—…d that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are â—…ly offended to denounce such a sentence of non-communion which is a meere device of your own brains and sound out to give a colourable answer to that common and 〈◊〉 reason against the Church-way 〈◊〉 you make that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Presbyteries to be an excommunicating of whole Churches and â—…s delivering of whole Churches and their Eldere offending unto Saâ—…n which is a scandalous charge laid to tho Presbyterian government and never yet was â—…rd of in any of the reformed Churches for the space now of a hundred yeares past You lay you give more to the Magistrates power then the principle of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld whereas in some things I shall show the contrary and in other things you may out of policie at this time give more then the Scriptures allow You speake only of excommunication a part of their way whereas in combined classicall government there are many other meanes and ways from first to last to preserve and reduce from errors and offences 2. The comparison made by you between the Presbyterians and Independents stands in two things First In the Ecclesiasticall proceedings and power Secondly In the civill Magistrates power 1. For the Ecclesiasticall you make that principle of submission of Churches that miscarry and that of non-communion as effectuall as excommunication which supposing they were as I shall shew they are not yet 't is a fallacious reasoning by comparing the whole with a part for a whole of one kind may be better and more excellent then some part of another kind and yet not comparable to the whole now there are many things in Presbyteriall government besides excommunication excellent to preserve and keep the Churches Their reformation and constitution being setled by Synods and Assemblies their Ministers being ordained by Presbyteries and classes their Doctrine worship government and discipline upon serious debate and by common content drawn up then rules being fixt known and certaine their classicall meetings frequent and constant with higher Assemblies for appeales their number and abilities great their remedies and censures more solemne and more in number as deposition suspension c. all which are wanting in the Church way as I could shew at large but that this answer would be too great a volume But to come to particulars the Presbyterian is more effectuall then your Independent way 1. Because it doth prevent and preserve from those many errours divisions evils which fall in your way as is evident by experience and is founded upon good reason will fall out now how much better and more effectuall a way 't is to play the fore-game then the after-game all men know 't is better to prevent the plague and taking in poyson then to expell it government is for prevention as well as recovering if your way were as effectuall to compose differences and reduce Churches yet not so to prevent which is one of the great ends of Church government 2. Your way wraps in whole Churches in sin and guilt and you have no remedy but it must come to non-communion of whole Churches but in Presbyteriall 't is not so no example being extant among them of excommunicating whole Churches so that if an errour take one or two they are presently dealt with and the errour spreads not to a whole Church 3. In the Presbyteriall way the persons offending and sinning in Congregations are proceeded with and punished every man beares his own sin but the innocent persons suffer not but here in the way of non-communion some who are good in the Church suffer also many wayes and here is no difference made by you but all involved in the same condition 4. In your way as if all sins were equall and all offenders alike all are punished with the same sentence of non-communion but 't is not so in the Presbyteriall way 5. Your submissions and meetings are accidentall uncertaine free and at choice they may be and may not be there are many wayes to evade and put them off whereas the combinations and consociations of Churches are fixed set certaine Amongst your Churches in Holland in three or foure yeares there was but one act of submission and one meeting which is here related In that difference between those two Churches at Rotterdam there was no submission but each Church blew the trumpet of defiance against each other and so about the differences at Arnheim which the Church could not end in so long a time no Church interposed but in the classicall government there is such a subordination and dependencie such stated and fixed meetings that if men should escape one they do not all now in government and order there is a materiall difference between what men may doe or not doe and what they have tied themselves unto and must stand to In matters of civill difference referred to Arbitratours 't is one thing to submit to hearing and to counsell upon it and another thing to be bound to stand to the determination There are many will doe justly and performe such trusts whilest bound who left at liberty will doe just nothing now in your submission of Churches though you submit to a hearing yet you doe not submit to their determinations unlesse it like you you doe not submit to doe what they enjoyne but you will order your selves according to their counsell as you see occasion now men being partiall in their own cause and still their own judges what a remedie is this 't is one thing when men know they are at liberty and may doe or not doe as they see good and another
among common people and especially the female sex apt to be seduced strong in their affections and loving too much Independency but weake and easie in their understandings not able to examine grounds and reasons nor to answer you there you have vented abundantly your conceits setting fire upon the thatch of the house as Mr Iohn Goodwin in former times used to expresse it Upon which grounds and considerations no marvell though it were interpreted by some Ministers and by my selfe too I freely confesse it that you were somewhat conscious of a weake and bad Cause or of unabilitie to maintain what you asserted in difference from others or to answere the bookes written against your way and I appeale to the Reader whether this was an ill Interpretation or whether we might not justly and rationally impute such a silence to the badnesse and weaknesse of the cause c. It was ever accounted an argument of a weake and bad cause to delay and shift off the triall and hearing of it and of a bad commodity to be shy of the light and I have read it somewhere as a speech quoted out of Tertullian that opinion ought to be suspected which would be hid and you know that common saying Veritas non quaerit angulos But as for that which you present to all mens apprehensions for the confutation of that Interpretation and Construction of your silence That what ever the truth and justnessâ—… of your cause may prove to be or how slender your abilities to defâ—…nd it yet you pretend at least to so much wisedome that you would never have reserved your selves for but rather by all wayes have declined this Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe an Assembly of so many able learned and grave Divines c. I answer it is no concluding argument it followes not because there is an Assembly now sitting whereof you are members where you resolve to bring forth your grounds for your Tenets that therefore your former silence then could not be imputed to consciousnesse of a bad and weake Cause or unabilitie to maintain it and it will appeare thus because of the different times and that distance between then and now you might not see such good grounds nor be so well versed and studied in it then besides you might be in great hopes that it would be long before any such Assembly should meet as it was and when they did meet it should be long before those points should come to dispute and debate as we see hath fallen out and in the meane time you should gaine time which Polititians and wise men as you are make much account of and set that against many things whereby to worke out their ends and then you should try the spirits of men in the Assembly and see how things were like to goe and if things did not cotten to your mind you might returne back and so never discover your weaknesse but if things went on well and affaires were likely to succeed on the Parliaments side and matters must come to dispute and debate in the Assembly then you would doe as you should finde occasion and fall upon such consultations as the times would suffer then reason and dispute it when brought to a necessity and it could not be helped but yet so long as no need kept it off especially upon some hopes it might never come to that many will adventure upon a thing with more disadvantages when they see there is no remedy for it who yet so long as they can be at choise and at liberty will decline the thing out of diffidence of their strength and feare of their ability to carry it Many a man shuns fighting when he can avoid it out of consciousnesse of his weaknesse and want of skill and hopes of doing so still who yet when he must either fight or die will fight and lay about him as well as he is able and this was and is your case â—…d whereas you say what ever your Cause may prove to be c. yet you pretend at least to so much wisedome that you would never have reserved your selves for the Assembly c. I must answer you I beleeve upon good grounds and so do many more you never tooke any great content or joy in the thoughts of this Assembly but have done your utmost to delay it and to put it by God knowes your hearts and men some of your speeches about the meeting of this Assembly but seeing it could not be helped and that you could not keep it off by all your friends you could neither will nor chuse you have reserved your selves and not by all wayes declined being members of it and good reason why for otherwise you must have lost all and for ever have had your mouthes stopt for your way if being chosen of the Assembly you had declined it but by being members of the Assembly you hoped at least to doe something for your way hinder and stumble the other way keep it longer from being setled by which you should gaine and make an advantage or get a Toleration for your Churches or possibly might carry it at least in some things For without doubt you reasoned after this manner There are some ten for our way in the Assembly and we hope to bring in more of our mind as you have attempted since the sitting of the Assembly some besides there are of the Assembly fairly inclining towards us and ready to comply with us some also but little studied in the points and other more indifferent about Government now we in policie diligence speech and parts excelling many others too may have some hopes to carry it or at least to qualifie and moderate the Assembly to our way especially having observed the Ministers so desirous of peace and loath to breake with us almost upon any termes but supposing the worst whatever the issue of things might prove to be in the Assembly you had this Maxime to guide you by when men can doe no otherwise they must doe as well as they can And as for the wisedome you pretend unto not to bring forth your Tenets into publique view first on the stage of the Assembly if false and counterfeit together with your own folly and weaknesse I answer the wisedome that many have pretended to as much as you can hath deceived them and instead of truth and strength have brought forth their folly and weaknesse and wheâ—…her none of you who pretend to much wisedome have not in the Assembly brought forth into publique view upon occasion of your Tenets their folly and weaknesse I leave the Assembly to judge of that Onely before I take off my hand from this brought by you in confutation of the ill interpretation of some I cannot lâ—…t passe this testimony given by you Five to the Assembly That it is a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe an Assembly of so many able learned and grave Divines where much