more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
of this your assertion woulde assuredlie gett you the victorie in all the rest you contende aboute without all further dispute But the manifest falsitie of your affirmation doth not only make your cause desperate but also deepelie woundeth your creditt hauinge no care to affirme so apparant vntruthes without the slenderest shewe of proofe or probabilitie att all PILK Besides we doe not finde in anie auncient creede either that of the Apostles or of Nice or in anie other of the auncient counsells that the churche was stiled the catholâ—cke Roman Finallie howe canne a parte be the whole Nowe the Roman churche thoughe shee were pure in her farthest extent is but a parte of the vniuersall churche CHAMP Haue you not yett learned howe vaine a thinge it is to argue ab authorita â— neâ—a ua Produce you some aun ient creede where the churche is called the christian churche which thoughe you cannot doe yett I hope you will not denie the catholicke churche to be rightlie so called Neither is the Roman church taken for a parte of the catholike churche as you either falselie or foolishlie surmise but for the whole as the kinge of England is not taken onlie to be kinge of Englande but of the rest of his kingdomes also the whole takinge name of one parte as is ordinarie euen in common speach which you cannot be ignorant of PILK Yett you say this vniuersall particular churche admitteth a larger Canon then the protestants you meane the Apocripha And so it standeth her in hand otherwise shee might bid a dieu to diuerse profitable points that helpe her to vphoulde her Monarchie But the churche of God before Christ receiued them not but the same which the protestants doe embrace Neither read we that Christe or anie of his Apostles did cite anie testimonie out of them to confirme any doctrâ—ne by them which they did out of all the canonicall bookes Besides if we followe S. August iudgment whereby we may discerne suspitious writinge from canonicall then these wil easilie appeare to be conterfaites First saith he they are not such as the churche credited received into canonicall authoritie Secondlie there be manie thinges imbarked in them which Apostolicall rule of faith and sound doctrine doth contradict both these are verified of the Apocripha For neither the churche of God before Christ receiued them to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. which Christe woulde haue reprooued them for if they had without iust cause reiected them as well as he did reprehend them for the misinterpretinge of the canonicall bookes neither yett longe after Christe did the Christian churche imbrace them And besides in the bookes them selues there are certaine brandes whereby they may be discerned from the canonicall First the addition vnto the booke of Hester saith that Mardocheus had receiued rewardes for the detection of the conspiracie of the kinges Chamberlaynes the true Hester sayth he receiued none The suppositius Hester saith that Haman intended the the destruction of Mardocheus for detectinge the Eunuches Hest. 12. 6. The true Hester saith for denyinge him worshippe Hester 3. 5. The true Hester the kinge looked gratiouslie vppon her the conterfeit he looked angerlie The booke of Baruch saith that the cittie of Hierusalem was taken and burnt at the same tyme Ieremie teacheth the contrarie the bookes of the kinges The additions vnto Daniell say that when Danyell deliuered Susanna he was a childe the true Daniell saith that he with two others made by the kinge were chiefe ouer 120. princes that they might take all the accompts of the kingdome and the kinge might not be troubled But children vse not to be sett ouer such affaires Commentitiues Daniell saith in the storie of Bell that he was fed by Abacucke 14. 36. whereas Abacucke prophesied longe before the captiuitie 1. 6. In the booke of Tobie cap. 12. 15 the Angell calleth himselfe Raphaell the Angell of the Lorde but chapter the 5. 12. he is of the kinred of Ananias and Azarias the greate if he be the Angell of the Lorde he cannot be the sonne of a man As true is that medecine wherwith the deuill is driuen away but corporall creatures vse not to make anie impression into a substance simply intellectuall as deuills be In Iudith the cruell murther committed by Symeon and Leui is propounded to be imitated cap. 8. 23. which Genesis the 49. is reprehended and accursed The booke of wisdome is falselie intituled as it had been composed by Salomon whereas the author of it was Philo the Iewe. Ecclesiasticus craueth pardon if he come shorte in some wordes which the penmen of the holy Ghost vsed not to doe In the bookes of the Maccabies a parricide is commended that layde handes on himselfe which is forbidden by the lawe So your longe Canon hath but certayn inches that are true and perfect the rest are but leaden and crooked yet for all this you say CHAMP That the catholike Romane churche admitteth a larger Canon that is as the Manuall saith moe bookes and parcells of the Bible for holy scripture then the protestants doe is so manifest that you dare not denie it Nowe whether these bookes and parcells of bookes be apocripha or noe is in controuersie you affirminge them so to be and we denyinge it Which question cannot here be disputed or discussed for confoundinge of matters Onlie this I say by the way to your obiections made against them that if you doe stand to S. Aug iudgment in this pointe to whome you make shewe to appeale the cause is lost on your parte and if you will not beleeue me reade his seconde booke de Doctrina Christiana cap 5. 6. and be your owne iudge Againe your exceptions against the bookes in controuersie are such as if they were admitted for sufficient to prooue them Apocripha I dare vndertake to prooue all or the most parte of the bookes in the Bible to be Apocripha And this I will make good whensoeuer you dare vppon equall conditions to chalenge me therunto See therfore I pray what a friende you are to the holy scripture that open such and so wide a gappe to take quite away all scripture And this shall suffice for answere to all your tedious discourse in this section Manuall Catholike position the first That all such articles as by her the Catholike Roman churche and the protestants are beleeued and holden for articles of faith are not so expressely contayned in the holy scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof PILK This position is so doubtfullie sett downe as if of purpose you would walke in a cloude that your reader might not perceiue you For if by expresselie you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that all articles of faith are not contayned in holy scriptures in so manie wordes but if you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is
vnderstoode him you would neuer haue dreamed of anie Antithesis betwixt my position his doctrine Hee speakinge manifestlie of that seruice which is due onlie vnto God called of diuines Latria whereof my position is not meant And if to make your Antithesis good you will contend that there is no other religious woshippe or seruice but onlie that which is called Latria and is only due vnto God learne of S. Aug to correct your sencelesse errour Who disputing against Faustus and haueinge confessed the religious worshippe of Martyrs to preuent your errour addeth these wordes But with that worshippe which in Greeke is called Latria and in Latin cannot be expressed in one worde being a seruice due onlie to the diuinitie we neither worshippe nor teache to be worshipped but God onlie Reade the whole chapter and see his doctrine more at large and you shall finde that in S. Aug. opinion Christian religion doth not forbidde the religious worshippe of maâ—tirs who are no more to be called dead men then Abraham Isaac and Iacob of whom our Sauiour himselfe testifieth that they are liuinge Matt 22 32 PILK To pray to the angells and Saincts in heauen is lawfull and derogateth no whit at all from the mediation of Christ The martirs are nominated in their place and order but yett are not prayed vnto by the priest that offereth Sacrifice That prayer which is not made by Christ not onlie doth not abolish sinne but it selfe is turned into sinne CHAMP Thoughe I be alreadie wearie of your impertinencies yett will I not stick to refute this last which is as apparant as the rest First therefore thoughe you take the wordes of S. Aug. as nakedlie as you sett them downe yett doe they sounde noe Antithesis with my position hee onlie denyinge that Sacrifice is to be offered to martyrs which the manuall affirmeth not Secondlie S. Aug. speaketh onlie of such inuocation as the heathens vsed to theire false Gods as you your selfe cannot denie if you would but read that same chapter which is by you alleaged and therfore his doctrine cannot coÌ„tradict my position which maketh not Saincts to be Gods nor yett to be worshipped as such Furthermore in this your allegation I note the shamefull beggarie and miserie of your cause which is such that you cannott begge or borrowe of the holy Fathers the least seeminge couer for one soare without gaulinge or discoueringe another For whilst you would couer your heresie of not prayinge to Saincts with a patch borrowed of S. Aug you shameleslie discouer and lay open that other heâ—esie of yours wherein you denie the sacrifice of the churche I will sett downe S. Aug wordes that all such as are not as wilfullie blinde as your selfe may see both your vanitie in this Antithesis the confutation of your heresie against the sacrifice of the newe Testament The Gentils saith he built temples erected alters ordered priests and did sacrifice to such Gods to witt Hercules Romulus and the like But we builde not churches to our Martyrs as to Gods but memories as to men departed whose soules liue with God neither doe we erect altars there to Sacrifice thereon to the Martyrs but we Sacrifice to one God whoe is our God and the God also of the Martyrs in which sacrifice they are named in theire place and rancke as men of God who vanquished the world in confessinge him bu they are not inuocated to witt as Gods by the priest that sacrificeth for he sacrificeth to God and not to them thoughe he sacrifice in their memorie because he it the priest of God and not of them And the sacrifice is the Boddie of Christ c. Your other testimonie out of S. Aug. vppon the psalme 108. is yett more foolishlie alleaged As thoughe for soothe those prayers which are made to God by his Saincts were not made vnto him by his sonne our Sauiour Your peruersitie hath made you intollerablie ignorant if you thinke so Againe S. Aug. there speaketh nothinge of prayers made to Saincts but of prayers made by Iudas who sellinge and betrayinge Christ did not onlie not pray by him but against him which being so hence I gather that if you sawe and read S. Aug. your selfe you haue a most wicked minde wittinglie labouringe to induce youâ—lesse carefull and warie reader into errour A degree of malice almost proper to the deuill himselfe PILK The like may bee verified of the rest CHAMP If you cal this verifyinge I desire you should alway plead against me and neuer for me For hitherto haue you not verified anie apparant contrarietie betwixt my position and the fathers doctrine thoughe you bragginglie pretend to bringe direct contradiction betweene them And in this dare I stand to the iudgment of your owne patron of Canterburie vppon condition that he will read the places in the fathers cited by you I will except that of S. Cyprian brought for the 7. Antithesis which though no more true indeede then the rest yett hath it a more apparancie in wordes then the rest and so is willinglie vnderstoode by your selfe and all the aduersaries of S. Peters primacie After your Antithesis you putt downe a roll of forged positions as thoughe I had imposed them vppon you and your fellowe protestants To which I answere first in generall that if it had not pleased you to winke att and ouerlooke that which I say neither confusedlie nor obscurelie in my preface you would not if you would haue sayd the truth charge me with forgeing anie positions against you I will here sett downe myne owne wordes which shall cleare me of that imputation I thinke euen with mine aduersaries if they be not wilfullie malignant Thus therefore I say there First I jett downe the Catholike Roman beliefe in direct and plaine positions c. And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholike doctrine to the end that the indfferent reader may more easilie iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy Scripture And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if hee wil prooue any thinge to purpose That is if he will prooue anie thinge against the Catholike Faith which onlie I vndertake in the Manuall to prooue and not to impugne or disprooue the protestants further then the proofe of one contradictorie is the disproofe of the other Without reason therefore doe you charge me with forgeinge positions thoughe amongst these which I sett downe vnder this note in the margent Protestants positioÌ„s some were founde which they doe not mantayne which whether it be so or no we shall presentlie examine for I putt the position contradictorie to the Catholike vnder the title of protestant position for this cause as I haue sayde before that if anie protestant will denie or impugne the catholike position prooued by me he may see the direct position which he is to prooue If therefore there be anie
the scriptures for decidinge thereof no such thinge but he geueth diuerse rules or markes whereby he that is in doubte whether parte to followe may iudge who hath the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures And after one or two rules he addeth this Vt autem manifestius dicam But that I may speake more plainlie they to witt heretikes haue certayne men of whom they are named for the sect is named of the author but wee to witt the catholikes haue not our name of anie man And a little after answeringe to the same question more fullie he addeth What are we cutt off from the church haue we Archeheretickes are we surnamed of anie man haue we a captayne anie particular man as these haue Marcion these Manicheus a thirde Arrius and other heresies haue theire sect masters As Lutherans haue Luther Caluinists haue Caluin and the like And though we haue the name of anie one â—et is is not of the father of anie heresie but of those who are our pastours and doe gouuerne the churche We haue not Maisters vppon Earth as all heretikes haue God forbidde we haue one in heauen Thou wilte say that they pretende the same But they haue a name that accuseth them and giueth them theire names Thus farr S. Chrisostome whereby it appeareth not onlie how impertinent or fraudulent Mr. Pilkinton is in his allegations but also of what moment the auncient fathers esteemed the argument taken from the surnames of sects for the discouerie of theire heresies and false doctrines PILK Loe in these cases wherein scriptures were produced on both sides the fathers fledd for resolution vnto other scriptures where it appeareth your inferrence to be without coherence that if there be not a iudge without the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saue mens soules seeinge that composinge of controuersies reconcilinge of differencies clearinge of doubtes manifestation of truth is not from without to be fetched but in the testament it selfe to be learned that we may knowe scriptures and them onlie to be the supreme iudge from whence decision of doubtes in matters of faith is to be deriued CHAMP Marke iudicious reader whether this be anie other thinge then that which I sayde in this section One chieâ—e ground of the prosestants doctrine to be that the wordes of the scripture are the iudge of all controuersies For the which Mr. Pilk hotly reprehendeth me of fraude and falsehodde See his wordes a little before at this marke †in the margent and maruell at his witt iudgment and memorie Nowe to the purpose Noe one of all the testimonies alleaged by you doth say that where scriptures are produced by both partes they are sufficient to decide the controuersie Thoughe I doe not denie but for the moste part the inequallity is so greate in the catholike partie as it also falleth out in the cause betweene the protestaÌ„ts and catholikes at this day that anie man of indifferent witt iudgment and desire to find out the truth may see on whether side the scripture standeth But that they are not absolutelie sufficient where there is obstinacie on anie side I shall make your selfe to coÌ„fesse thoughe peruerse enoughe or else I shall much marueill that by the verie example vsed by S. Optatus and S. Aug and approoued here by your selfe Put therefore the case that the children of a deceased father contend aboute the inheritance euerie one of them challenginge it as appertayninge to himselfe in proofe or confirmation of his clayme alleageth the testament and will of his father which he protesteth to be cleare for him and against his competitours beinge rightlie vnderstoode persisting most stifly in his opinion and in deffence of his right clayme as he is perswaded The case beinge putt thus which is the verie same with ours in the controuersy of religion will you say in the sinceritie of your hearte that the sole will or testament of the father is a sufficient iudge to decide this difference and to bringe the parties to an accorde And that there needeth not anie other iudge or arbiter to determine vppon the true sence and meaninge of the fathers will whereby they all pretende to make theire clayme and to grounde theire title you will not I thinke say yea to this question And well I wote that were the case your owne betwixte your selfe your bretheren concerninge a temporall inheritance experience which though shee be the mistres of fooles is not for all that a foolish mistres woulde teach you that it is a meere Paradoxe to maintayne that the sole testament of your deceased father could in this case decide the controuersie amongst you his disagreeinge children So that the example brought by your selfe out of the fathers is prooued to make manifestlie against you Which will yet be much more cleare if the case be putt as it is indeede with vs that these brethren doe not only contend aboute the true sence and meaninge of theire fathers testament but also aboute the testament it selfe the one contestinge the whole writinge contayned in the booke vnder the title of his will to be his true testament another not receiuinge the whole contendeth diuers partes and parcells not to belonge therunto And another yett reiectinge more as it falleth out betweene vs and the protestants Caluin castinge out of the testament of God fiue whole bookes besides some large partes of other bookes which the catholikes belieue to appertayn to his true testament Luther reiectinge besides these diuerse other whole bookes The case therefore beinge thus howe is it possible that the sole written testament of God shoulde decide the controuersie betweene these competitors and bring them to an accorde who doe not agree so much as in what bookes or writinges the testament is contayned so farre are they from beinge at accorde of the true sence and meaninge thereof It is therefore no other thinge to say in this case that the scriptures must iudge all controuersies then to say that the controuersie it selfe must be iudge of the controuersie which is more then madnes to thinke For the controuersie beinge not onlie what the scripture saith or meaneth but also what is scripture it is all one to say that scriptures must iudge and decide all controuersies and to say the controuersies themselues must decide all controuersies Againe seeinge you Mr. Pilkinton seeme to geue so much to holy scripture as to be able and sufficient to decide all doubtes and determine all differences in matter of faith Why doe you not hearken vnto them when they send you to the churche and to the pastours and doctours thereof as to liuelie iudges hauinge the keyes of knowledge to vnderstande the scriptures But you desiringe nothinge lesse then to come to a iust and competent tryall of your cause holde your selues close to that principle by which the most detestable vile and contemptible heretike that euer was may maintaine his heresie without beinge conuinced thereof as I toulde you
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say