scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
of those fathers concerning the force of Baptisme séeth not that they geue to such a childe remission of sinnes and therefore also liuerie from death therefore againe life euerlasting the kingdome of God Or let any man bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case of a child I say baptized but not communicated holding the contrarie For betwéen them the Pelagians that was not the case nor the question as I haue shewed but they brought in the Eucharist onely to proue that Baptisme is necessarie to the euerlasting life of children All which by this one place of S. Augustines will be euident euen for your owne purpose also it is plainer then the two places that your selfe alleage Augu. De pec mer. rem li. 1. ca. 20. If a child saith Augustine hauing receaued baptisme depart out of this life soluto reatu cui originaliter erat obnaxius c. Seeing the guilt is loosed to the which he was bond by birth he shal be perfite in that light which with the presence of the Creator doth lighten such as are iustified Peccata enim sola separant inter Deū homines for nothing but sinnes maketh separation betwene God and men and sinnes are loosed by the grace of Christ Then a litle after of the Pelagiās he saith They would geue to children vnbaptised saluation and life euerlasting for cause of their innocencie but shutte them from the kingdome of heauen because they are not Baptized For they haue forsooth a starting a lurking hole because our Lord said not If one be not regenerate of water and the spirit non habebit vitam he shall not haue life but he said non intrabit in Regnum Dei he shall not enter into the kingdome of God Nam si illud dixisset for if he had said that quoth they it had bene so playne that no doubt could haue risen therof How then doth S. Augustine ioyne issue with them herevpon Auferatur ergo iam dubitatio c. Say you so Now then away with doubting let vs heare our Lord not the suspitions coniectures of mortal men Why haue you a plaine word of our Lordes owne mouth for the necessitie of Baptisme also to life euerlasting Dominū audiamus inquam non quidem hoc de Sacramento lanacri dicentem Let vs heare our Lorde I say I graunt he speaketh it not of the Sacracrament of Baptisme sed de Sacramento sanctae c. but of the Sacrament of his holy table quo nemo rite nisi c. And yet neuerthelesse it serueth well to our question of Baptisme because no man commeth lawfully to that table vnlesse he be Baptized Then he bringeth forth the place Except yee eate c. you shall not haue life in you And so he triumpheth saying What seeke we further what can they answere to this if they will not be obstinate By and by he declareth though it were said of baptisme Qui non renatus fuerit He that is not regenerate and here it is not saide likewise He that doth not eate but If you doe not eate as though he spoke to men of vnderstandyng and not to Infantes yet that this place must needes pertaine also to Infantes And so it is euident that although he vnderstande the place of the Sacrament and of Infantes yet he bringeth it not to proue the necessitie of that Sacrament to Infantes but the necessitie of Baptisme to Infantes Marie perceiuing that he might be mistaken of his Reader he doth commonly though it néeded not against the Pelagians insinuate most vigilantly by the waye that in Baptisme it selfe they receyue also the other Sacrament not sacramentally but spiritually that is Augu◠pec m◠3. cap. the effect of the other Sacrament Quoniam nihil agitur aliud cum paruuli baptizantur nisi vt incorporentur Ecclesiae id est Christi Corpori membrisue socientur Because when Infantes are Baptized it is for no other cause but that they maye bee incorporated to the Churche that is to saye ioyned to the bodye and members of Christ See D◠len d◠cha ◠31. pa◠It is so therefore with children by Baptisme as it is with older people by an earnest desyre to the Eucharist for as these haue Votum explicitum an expresse desyre to it so they haue Votum implicitum a close desyre to it and that serueth them both to obtayne the effecte thereof though not in so great measure as if they receyued it also sacramently Neuerthelesse there may be iust causes to keepe it from children generally as there are iuste causes to keepe it sometyme yea at Easter also from some of the older sorte But if antiquitie dyd not counte it necessarye for chyldren at least wyse they gaue it you wyll saye to children and that is contrary to Probet semet ipsum homo 1. Co◠let a man examyne hym selfe before he receyue it Why syr is there anye feare least chyldren that are Baptized come to it vnworthyly that is beyng in mortall synne hath any adultus by penance a better warrant to presume vnto it then a childe by Baptisme Knowe you not howe S. Augustine and the whole Church holdeth that in Baptisme a childe repenteth and beléeueth by others euē so he there also examineth himselfe by others As other repenting and other beléeuing so likewise other examining is not necessarie for a child though for so great a sacrament it be more conuenient And so both the Churche now doth well not to Communicate children they also afore did not ill who did Communicate them who yet were not so many as Fulke doth make them We heard erewhile what the Tridentine Fathers said Falsification by adding Aliquando in quibusdam locis that maner was sometime in some places The third part Concerning the errors that he laieth to the Church of later times and not of old And thus much of the second sorte of errors laid by you to the auncient true Church and not also to the Churche of these later times which you take not to be the true Church Now therefore as it followeth let vs heare and examine the third last sorte of errors such as you lay to this Church of later times and not also to the primitiue Church as you call it meaning the first .600 yeares Which errors wil be so few so light in respect of those which he hath already charged the true Church withall specialy when they are duely scanned Note you that vvould the true Church that it may be both a sure confirmation to the Catholikes and a iust motiue to all others to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering that it is no lesse yea much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie as in déede also of good reason it must so be because more time hath geuen to the Holy Ghost and stil doth geue more occasions to define and declare many pointes that were
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
next witnesse Tertullian must not be beléeued because he expresseth certaine prayers which Iustinus doth not And yet betwéene them two you find no repugnance but set vpon D. Allen as afore vpon S. Chrysostome with them both at once saying And where he saith there was euer found in the celebration of the Sacrament a solemne prayer for all the departed in Christ To reproue his vanitie the order of prayers and administration of the Holy mysteries Tert. in Apolog aduersus Gentes described by Iustinus and of Tertullian also do sufficiently declare what was the vsage of the Chrystians in those purer times Because there it is expressed for whom and what they prayed Oramus etiam saith Tertullian pro Imperatoribus pro ministris eorum potestatibus seculi pro rerum quiete pro mora finis We pray also for the Emperours for their officers and powers of the world for peace for delay of the end Do you not sée that in saying we pray also for these he signifieth that these were some but not all they prayed for as if he should say Among other things we pray for these Which other things he had not cause to expresse there as he had cause to expresse these to wit for that the Christians were charged of the Heathen thus Deos non colitis pro Imperatoribus sacrificia non impenditis First you do not worship the goddes Secondly you do not bestow sacrifices with the Heathen at certaine appoynted times for the Emperours Therfore making his Apologie he expresseth the Emperours suche persons things as concerned their Romaine Empire as you may reade more amply somewhat afore This is a cleare answere and therfore inough Howe muche more considering that your selfe also confesse that Tertullian is against you Pur. 369. In so much that you are fayne to say To leaue out of our Seruice prayers and sacrifice for the dead we haue sure warrant by example of the eldest Church nearest to the Apostles times as we haue shewed out of Iustinus Martyr and Tertullian before he became an Heretike meaning a Montanist To which your cauill I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 49. And therfore Tertullian standeth vpright against you with your owne confession more at large cap. 3. pag. 15. How much more againe considering that about the very same time Arnobius to the same purpose wrote thus Cur immaniter nostra Conuenticula meruerunt dirui Arnob. li. 4 cōtra Gentes sub finē c. Why deserued our Churches to be pulled downe barbarously in which the highest God is prayed vnto peace and pardon is asked for all men for the Magistrates for friends for enemies for the liuing and for the dead So expresly he sayth to confound your arguing out of others ab authoritate negatiuè You ioyned Tertullian to Iustinus The matter ioyneth also Epiphanius to them Of him you saye Pur. 370. It is easie to be gathered by Epiphanius that the olde forme of Liturgie was but to make mention of the dead to haue them in remembraunce And because they vsed to make memory of all sorts of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time That this memory was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c. a signification that they were inferior to Christ A simple cause why they should be remembred so that neither the old forme of Liturgie liketh you in remembring the dead at al VVil you see a pure Puritane no more then the old oblatiōs for the dead thogh they were only oblations of thanksgiuing for they were taken vp of the Church in Tertullian and Montanus time by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles so you said cap. 6. pag. 53. But this shifte Epiphanius is driuen vnto because he did not consider that the memorie and oblation which the old Fathers made for al the departed in Christ was a sacrifice of thanks giuing and not of prayers for them And againe They had in deede in elder time Pur. 356. as appeareth by Epiphanius the name of oblation but it was for the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles and Martyrs Which playnly sheweth that it was but an offering of thanks giuing You are deceiued by thinking that it is but one memorie whereof Epiphanius speaketh Looke in the Liturgie of S. Iames as also of S. Basil and of S. Chrysostome diuers places of S. Augustines and you shall find two distinct memories And therfore Epiphanius saith Epip Hier. 75. Aerij li. 3. tom 1. Et pro iustis pro peccatoribus memoriā facimus Both for the iust and for the sinners we make memorie And that by tradition of the Apostles as he there saith against your friend Aerius Pro peccatoribus quidem misericordiam dei implorantes For sinners pardie requesting Gods mercy Which is not his exposition as you pretend but the very words of the Tradition that is of the memorie it selfe Pro iustis verò c. For the iust both Fathers and Patriarks Prophets and Apostles Euangelistes Martyrs and Confessors Bishops also and Anchoretes and for euery order Vt D. I. Christum ab hominum ordine separemus To the ende we may seperate our Lord Iesus Christ from mens order pondering in our mind that our Lord is not egalled to any mā althogh a thousand times vpward that man do liue in iustice For how is it possible for he is God and the other is a man Which reason of his was to déepe for your diuinitie He saw that the like memorie might be made also for our Lord him selfe if it were but a thanks giuing And therfore not being made for him likewise he conceiued that the Apostles had another reason therin so to separate the iust from Christ not only the sinners from the iust Although otherwise when the iust the sinners are not seperated but ioyned both together in some one Collet of the Church then as S. Augustine said ca. 3. pag. 16. the same one Collet is at once a propitiation for the sinners and a thanks giuing for the iust Now to the place of Origen which is another of your trumpes that you trust so much in Pur. 249.427 saying This one testimonie of Origen shal testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes And yet you are fayne to confesse not onely thus in the same place I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somewhat forwarder but also of Origen him self in another place Pur. 116. Orig. in Ie. Ho. 12. In Num. ho. 25. In psal 36. ho. 3. Ori. in Iob. lib. 3. to say But howsoeuer he doteth about passage through fire and purifications after this life yet he affirmeth in another place that the daye of Christian mens death is the deposition of payne Wherby it appeareth that either he was not constant with him selfe or els that
of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
whatsoeuer wee doe Also To geue to them that are newly Baptised a temper of mylke and hony and from the day of their Baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after v. As touching Purgatorie and Praying for the dead But for Purgatorie and Praying for the dead because his whole booke is of that matter he is most profuse in charging that auncient true Church both fathers and people thereof and therfore I must stand the longer hereabout specially because the Reader shall sée therein as in a notable example to what shamefull confessions against them selues they are driuen whensoeuer they take in hand to answere throughly to any learned Catholike that hath throughly written of any controuersie And first I will shewe what he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times secondly of the whole Churche in some of those times thirdly of the glorious originall that they referre it vnto and lastly of the shamefull original or head that he referreth it vnto and them also for it j. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it And for the first to beginne alowe and so goe vpwarde Pur. 158. Bernard saith he is a very late writer and therefore his authoritie with vs is of small accompt in such cases as he followeth the common error of his time I take this in the way without our compasse yet not without good cause that conferring the times both within and without those first .600 yeares thou maist beholde how he chargeth both a like Well then to come nowe into our compasse Pur. 166. of S. Gregorie thus he saith When the proofe commeth you leape but 600. yeares from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I will not denie but you may haue great store of such stuffe And not afore that time likewise Theodoret was an .100 yeares before S. Gregory Pur. 123. and what of him and his time Oecumenius and Theodoretus saith he were writers about that time when corruption of doctrine had greatly preuayled Againe before that time from the yeare .430 vp to .360 much about one time these did florish Augustine See M. Rishtons table Ambrose Hierome Paulinus Efrem Chrisostome Basil and Epiphanius And what of them and their time I haue alreadie rehearsed what he saith of S. Augustine vpon his booke De cura Pur. 315.317 that he woulde hold the common opinions receaued in his time and that he was willing to mainteine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time 349. As againe If he had diligently examined the Common error of his time of prayer for the dead he would not so blindly haue defended it as he doth in that booke De cura pro mortuis agenda and else where And againe In celebration of the Sacrament 326. the superstitious error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remembrance of some in the prayers as of Monica Patritius the parents of S. Augustine 78. Againe But Augustine speaketh of the amending fire in the place alleaged by M. Allen. He doth so in deede but Augustine had no ground of that fire but in the common error of his time 161. And againe Concerning Augustine that error of Purgatorie was somewhat risely budded vp in his time Then of Paulinus 322. Purgatorie in those dayes was but euen a breeding and yet not throughly shaped out of prayers for the dead and such other superstitious ceremonies as were vsed about the departed How handsomly he agréeth here with him selfe I dissemble till * Contr. 46.47 the 11. Chapter Nowe of Ambrose and others Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead as it was a Common error in his time Pur. 320 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Beda Ephraim Ambrose Moreouer Chrysostome and Ieronym allowed prayers for the dead 194. 370. Then of Epiphanius Because the olde Liturgies vsed to make memorie of all sortes of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time that this memorie was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c a signification that they were inferior to Christ a simple cause why they should be remembred but this shift he is driuen vnto So S. Augustins exposition of the like practise 279.280 August euc 110. ad dul q. 4. saying When the sacrifices either of the Altar or of any kind of Almes be offered for all men departed and baptized for the very good they are Gratiarum actiones thanks giuing for them that be not very euill they are Propitiationes procurements of mercy for the very euil although they be no succor to them being dead yet they are certayne comforts to the liuing He condemneth it likewise in these words These matters stand al vpon a false supposition that any prayers are auailable for the dead which when it can not be proued it is in vaine to shew who taketh profite by them who not And so much of that time yea and of more then that time where he said before the times of Efrem and Ambrose Let vs now ascend to Constantinus Magnus his time who was the first full Christian Emperour and beganne his raigne soone after the yeare .300 Pur. 313. In the buriall of Constantinus sayth he there is mention of prayer for his soule according to the error of the time which was * Inough for any Christian man the time euen of the first Nicen Councell also and he buried in the Gréeke Church at Constantinople Long afore that againe about the yeare .200 florished Tertullian and Origines of that time so he saith after a certaine saying of Origens alleaged By this place it is manifest Pu. 249. that Origen whom notwithstanding here a little after we shall haue for the founder of Purgatorie and the East Churche in his time acknowledged no Purgatorie paines Againe This one testimonie of Origen shall testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes Pag. To Origens place I must answere in the ninth Chapter but nowe doe you say on I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somwhat forwardes in as much as there was the seat of Antichrist appointed to be set vp Where by the waye may be noted his For the .xii. Chapter ignorance being the foundation of his malice that he knoweth not all the old heresies to haue sprong of the Gréekes wherevpon also were holden in the Gréeke Church those first foure generall Councels against them and not of the Latines but contrawise the Romaine Church specially to be commended of the fathers Vinc. Lir. cap. ix Ruf. in expo Symb num iii. For maintaining alwayes most earnestly susceptae semel Religionis integritatem the puritie of
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
they made that faith and troth wherwith they had vowed afore the thing which they would not fulfil with perseuerance So smoothly and gently doth the text folow this coÌ„struction as yet also more playnly you shall sée if you conferre nubere volunt with this that followeth Iam enim quaedam conuerâ—ae sunt retro satanam As if he had said but what do I say They will marry They will play the Apostates Yea already some are turned backe after Satan Therfore I say of these yong widowes admit them not to vow Doth he not hereby euidently expound him selfe that in suche widowes to marry he calleth to turne backe after Satan Agayne in saying Let a widowe be admitted no lesse then three score yere olde and refuse the yonger ones I will that they marry Doth he not playnely signifie that the admitted may not marry and therefore the young ones bicause they will marry after their admission do incurre damnation This is our conference of the text it selfe with it selfe But in commeth Fulke and will néedes for all that haue it meante of the faith of Baptisme and Christianitie Pur. 147. because S. Paule in the same Chapter saith of another matter that who so neglecteth to prouide for his owne familie hath denyed the faith meaning the faith of a Christian man Specially because he calleth this that we speake of the first faith Neither is pistâ—s in the Scripture vsed for a vow oâ— promise Why do not you say your selfe that both there and once afore in the same Chapter it is vsed for the vow or promise made in Baptisme And can you remember neuer a place where the faith of God is the promise of God looke Rom. 3. Who hath not heard of the thrée good thinges in mariage that S. Augustine talketh so much of Fides Proles Sacramentum faith or troth yssue and Sacrament And where you triumph in your owne conceite against S. Augustines most naturall and most certaine exposition as though by it the first faith is expounded for the last vow now sir thus the text ruÌ„neth They wil marry that is fidem dare make promise betroth them selues to another husband to a mortall man and therefore to be damned because in so doing they haue broken their first faith that is the promise that they made the troth that they plighted afore to their husband Christ in their admission among these widowes What absurditie what inconsequence is in this let any man iudge whether hangeth better together it or the exposition of your companions that D. Allen chargeth them with to wit She that breaketh her faith of Baptisme shall be damned for mariage which you say is a cauill and not worth a rush What then is your exposition That belike hangeth exactly Thus you say S. Paule saith not she shall be damned for mariage but because she hath reiected the first faith that is suche wanton young huswifes proceede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood Chritianitie and all Lo Fulke it goeth hard vvith you your selfe are compelled to graunt that which you denied to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhood and how forsake they widowhood but by marrying Ergo S. Paule saith they shall be damned for marrying So vnuincible is the texte in our exposition One texte more you alleage about mariage Pur. 17.25 to salue your Bishops ytching lust who as though it were annexum ordini saith D. Allen very aptely must out of hand for the most parte haue a wife whereas yet neuer from the Apostles time to this day Not one Mark it vvell any one Bishop or priest that is confessed to haue bene a good one did marry afterwards neither for all Iouinians plausible argumentes no not Iouinian him selfe What haue you then to defend yours withall that are so coÌ„trarie to all others A Bishop is not perfect vvith Fulke vnlesse he haue a vviâ—e Belike say you S. Paule taketh mariage to be so annexed to the order of an Ecclesiasticall minister that he neuer descrbeth the perfect paterne of a Bishop or Deacon but one of the first pointes is that he be the husband of one wife Belike you know not nor care not what you say for you should haue gathered the cleane contrarie if you had looked what he meneth by the husband of one wife A Bishop saith he must be the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. A Priest the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. The meaning thereof you might haue learned 1. Tim. 5. where he coÌ„maundeth about the choosing of a professed widow and saith quae fuit vnius viri vxor Let her be such a one as hath bene the wife of one husband So then he requireth in a Bishop Priest or Deacon to be made that he haue had onely one wife How much better then if he haue had none but is a virgin This you should haue gathered of his words and you gather the cleane contrarie that néedes he must haue had a wife or els if he be a virgin he swarueth from the perfect paterne yea more absurdly not that he must haue had one but that he must presently haue one for of that D. Allen did speake and to that you alleage S. Paule And thus gentle Reader I haue with Gods assistance gone through all the Scriptures reseruing onely a few to other places which this Heretike alleageth in his two bookes for any matter against the Catholike Church and answered euery one of them so clearly that I trust thou art fully satisfied and doest perceiue playnely that he had no cause to bragge of Scripture as in the last Chapter he did most insolently saying still an end that he cared not what was against him séeing Scripture was so expresly with him But he may and it please God who is most mercifull by this occasion better bethinke him selfe and leaue his kicking agaynst the pricke that is against our Lorde Iesus in his Church Act. 9. specially vnderstanding by this litle as he may sufficiently that much more either he or any other of his side should be throughly satisfied in all euery thing if he were present here with vs to sée and heare our dayly conference in the Scriptures as very many of his side yea and Ministers aboue a dosen diuers of them being also of no vulgar wittes haue come already haue heard our examining of the Bible specially of the New Testament ouer and ouer haue asked obiected replied whatsoeuer they liste haue to euery thing bene so well answered the prayse is Gods and his Catholike truthes and on the other side so hardly posed all I say out of the holy Scripture it selfe that euer after a few dayes they haue had more list to heare then to speake specially seacute eing vs at euery text to alleage sincerely for their side whatsoeuer they could and more then they could them selues and now are euerie one of them become so firme so sure so perfitte
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
saieth he how without Idolatrie earth may be adored without Idolatrie Christes footestoole may be adored For he tooke earth of earth because flesh is of earth and of Maries flesh he tooke flesh Et quia in ipsa carne hic ambulauit et ipsam carnem nobis manducandam c. And because he walked here in the same flesh and gaue to vs the same flesh to eate for our saluation and no man eateth that flesh but first he adoreth it we haue found how such a footestoole of our Lordes may be adored and not onely we sinne not in adoring it but we sinne in not adoring it Sée now how properly Fulk answereth hereunto Augustine in deede alloweth the adoration of the body of Christ whereof that is a Sacrament but neither can you proue out of that place that he would haue the Sacrament honored nor that the Sacrament is the very body of Christ As though the same flesh which he tooke of the Virgin Marie and in which he walked is not his very body for the same saith he we eate and we adore it before we eate bowing and prostrating our selues euen to euerie particulare holy hoste as now in the Catholike Churches you know and as S. Augustine witnesseth of his time For it foloweth in most manifest wordes Et ad terram quamlibet cum te inclinas atque prosternis non quasi terram intuearis And when thou doest bow and prostrate thy selfe vnto any earth do not consider as it were bare earth Sed illuÌ„ SanctuÌ„ but that holye one whose footestoole it is that thou adorest Et cum adoras illum ne cogitatione remaneas in carne Also when thou adorest him let not thy thought rest in flesh So as they that thought the same an hard saying Vnles a man eate my flesh Ioan. 6. he shall not haue euerlasting life Acceperunt illud stultè they tooke it folishly they thought it carnally and imagined that our Lord would cut off certaine pieces from his body and geue to them Whereas they should haue said to them selues Non sine causa dicit hoc c. He saith not this without cause but because some hidden Sacrament is therein For so he instructed the twelue that did sticke vnto him when the other had for misliking that saying plaide the Apostates Vnderstand spiritually that which I spoke You shall not eate this Body which you see and drinke that bloud which they shal shedde that shall crucifie me that is you shall not eate it drinke it in such forme so as these others imagined I commended vnto you in those words some Sacrament that is such a thing as beeing spiritually vnderstoode will giue you life Although needes it must be visibly celebrated by the visible formes of bread and wine yet it must be inuisibly vnderstood to be not the thing which is séene in the celebration but which is not séene to wit my very body and bloud my very flesh taken of the Virgin In so much that yong children Infants in S. Augustines time at celebrations of the Sacramentes August de Trin. lib. 3. ca. 10. beeing tolde with most graue authoritie whose body and bloud it is will thinke nothing els but our Lord verily to haue appeared in that forme to the eyes of men and that liquor verily to haue flowed out of suche a side beeing striken if they neuer learne by their owne or others experience as striking it and yet no bloud flowe out of it and neuer see that forme of things but at Celebrations of the Sacramentes when it is offered to God and ministred to the receauers because they know not that which is sette on the Altar and after the holy Canon is consumed whence or howe it is made by consecration like as no man knoweth howe the Angels made or assumpted those cloudes and fires to signifie that which they did announce though the Lorde or the holy Ghost was shewed by those corporal formes And therefore those children would imagine that Christ appeared here and suffered in no other forme hearing that this in the Sacrament is his body and his bloud which was shedde for vs. Nowe commeth Fulke and gathereth cleane contrarie to D. Allen as if S. Augustine saide Pur. 309. that these children would imagine nothing of the presence of Christ in the Sacrament whereas he saith playnely that hearing thus his presence in the Sacrament and that in such sort that it is his bloud whiche was shed they would imagine of no other forme of his appearing suffering signifying as playnely that they néeded onely to be instructed of his other forme and not of any difference at all otherwise betwéene him selfe in his appearing and suffering and him selfe in this Sacrament The next Doctor may be Iustinus Martyr of whose wordes you gather agaynst Transubstantiation thus Ar. 60. Here he playnely affirmeth that the substance of â—he Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies Therefore it remayneth still after consecration That will appeare by his owne words which béeing truely translated are these in his seconde Apologie for the Christians to the Heathen Emperour Antonius Pius This meate with vs is called Eucharistia To the which none is admitted but suche as beleeueth our doctrine to be true and is washed with the Lauer for remission of sinnes and to regeneraration and so beleeueth as Christ hath taught And why suche reuerence For we take not these as the common bread and a common cuppe but euen as our Sauiour Iesus Christ beeing through Gods worde incarnate had fleshe and bloud for our saluation Sic etiam per verbum precationis quod ab ipso est sacratam alimoniam quae mutata nutrit nostras carnes sanguinem illius incarnati Iesu carnem sanguinem esse didicimus So we haue learned in the Gospelles that the meate which beeing chaunged nourisheth our fleshes and bloud being consecrated through his worde of prayer is the flesh and bloud of that Iesus incarnate He saith not here that the substance of the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies as you pretend but cleane against you he sheweth that it is not absurd bread and wine to be turned into the flesh bloud of Christ seing that euery day vsually they be turned by nature into oure fleshe and bloud when we take them at diner and supper for our nourishment and that to be done by the diuine worde séeing that by Gods worde hée tooke the same fleshe and bloud of the Virgine Marie Ar. 59. You gather likewise of Ireneus his wordes and say Here you see plainely that Ireneus affirmeth the Sacrament after the Consecration to consist of the earthly substance of bread He doth not so affirme Hée there treateth against the olde Heretikes who said Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. all these bodilie creatures yea and our owne bodies also not to be of Gods making who is the Father of Christ oure Lord but of another God whome
Virgine was breaking of her vow and the fall of those men was denying of Christ in persecution but they make not against Pardons no neither of those most heinous sinnes vnlesse you thinke that the Churches binding is preiudicial to her lowsing both being giuen her of Christ For what els doth S. Ambrose there but bind that virgine as béeing her Bishop to do penance al her life Inhaere poenitentiae vsque ad extremam vitae c. Sticke to penance euen to the end of thy life and presume not that pardon may be giuen thee of mans day for he deceiueth thee that so promiseth thee For thou that hast in special sinned against the Lord because she was his vowed spouse it is meete that of him onely thou looke for remedie in day of Iudgement So that all her life he bindeth her to penance bidding her not to hope for any pardon at his hands The Emperour Theodosius he bound also Theo. hist li. 5. ca. 17. though indefinitely but after eight monethes penance loused him again with a pardon Who séeth not that all this maketh playnely for pardons and not against them Likewise S. Cyprian in that Sermon and in twenty Epistles at the least maketh playnly for Pardons in that he doth no more but reproue them that be giuen partly of such as had not authoritie to louse at least those deniers as of Lay martyrs of méere Priestes partly of suche as had authoritie but without cause without moderation and to vnpenitent persons partly moste of al both these defects concurring But otherwise although being Primate of all Affrike he reprehended a certaine Bishop for geuing pacem peace to a certaine Priest Cyp. ep 59 before he had done poenitentiam plenam full penance which manifestly was a Pardon contra decretum de Lapsis contrarie to the Councels decrée touching such deniers Pacem tamen quomodocunque à Sacerdote dei c. Yet saith he being once giuen by a Bishop the Priest of God in what maner soeuer we will not reuoke it and therefore we permit Victor to enioy the leaue to communicate which hath bene graunted him NotwithstaÌ„ding that to those Impenitents trusting also but in lay mens pardons he crieth as you alleage Nemo se fallat c. Let no man deceiue him selfe Cyp. sermo de Lapsis let no man beguile him selfe onely our Lord can giue mercy onely he can graunt pardon to sinnes as beeing coÌ„mitted agaynst him Homo Deo esse non potest maior nec remittere aut donare indulgentia sua seruns potest quod in dominum delicto grauiore commissum est ne adhuc lapso hoc accedat ad crimen si nesciat esse praedictum Iere. 17. maledictus homo qui spem habet in homine Man can not be greater then God to louse the impenitent whom God bindeth neither can the seruaunt who hath no commission remit in part or forgeue in the whole with his indulgence that which by so great a fault was committed against the Lord least furthermore to the fallen person be added this cryme also if he be ignoraunt that it was forespoken Cursed is the man that hath his trust in man Mat. 10. Dominus orandus est Dominus nostra satisfactione placandus qui negantem negare se dixit Our Lorde must be prayed vnto our Lorde must by our satisfaction be pacified who hath saide that he will denie his denier His seconde Epistle is to those Martyrs in prison instructing them not to giue pardons them selues nor to appoynt the Bishops so or so to pardon him and his and him and his but to make their suite for those whose Poenitentia est Satisfactioni proxima penaunce is very nighe to satisfaction that is almost all fulfilled and to remitte the matter to the Bishoppes power Note the antiquitie of pardons sicut in praeteritum semper sub Antecessoribus nostris factum est As in time past alwayes it was done vnder our predecessors And yet Epistle 54. the Councell giueth a plenarie to all the Deniers at once that were doing their penaunce because of another persecution at hande Epistle 52. he sheweth Clerus Romanus Sede vacante appoynted that the like pardon should be geuen to euery one in extreme sicknes But I forget my selfe to alleage so much béeing here onely to answere vij Of Purgatorie This Chapter is growen to such length and yet is Purgatorie behinde But the gentle Reader will consider I trust howe lightly any beast may trouble the pure water but that it is not so soone cleared agayne not doubting also but the varietie passeth away his wearinesse As I am likewise studious of method to put all in conuenient order for the same cause And the order that in this part I thinke good to follow is to speake first of the Churches practise and then of particular Doctors Of the Canonicall memento of Oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church First then to proue that for a certayne space after the Apostles there was no praying for the dead at least in some Churches this Companion reasoneth ab authoritate negatiuâ— negatiuely of the authoritie of Iustinus Martyr and of Tertullian to which I must ioyne Origen Epiphanius and a Councell of Spayne though him selfe vnmindfull in one place what he saith in another playnly 〈…〉 Puâ— â— affirmeth that such an argument euen of all mens authoritie is false Therefore thus he saith Seeing it is certayne by testimonie of Iustinus Martyr that there was no mention of the dead in the celebration of the Lords Supper 〈…〉 for more then an hundred yeres after Christ we must not beleeue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Wel then Chrysostome your elder ones affirmeth it as more at large you confessed the same in the 3. and 7. Chapters but you and certain of the contrarie by his elder Iustinus What be Iustinus his words Where you recite them you say agayne Pur. 259. By which it is manifest that in those first and purer days there was â—o mention at all of Sacrifice for the dead But no word so in Iustinus Yea in reporting there the order of the 〈◊〉 â—ist he saith expresly that the Bishop is long about it Iust Apol. 2. in fine you also after he is comâ—â—o Consecration And when he hath ended Those prayers and the Consecration all do answerâ— Amen as also at this day we sée at the later Eleuation where the Consecration is concluded In that long space you can find no time for memento domine defunctorum But certayne it is and manifest say you that there was none and that Chrysostome and al his felowes must not be beleued You might as wel say that in S. Augustines time also there was no mention of the dead Aug. epist 59. q. 5. because he also reporteth sometimes the summe of the Canon without naming the dead yea that your owne
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man