the rest of the Christians shall they not as well bee the Church as they Arch. They say yes Latt Then the Seignorie and authoritie of the Church consisteth rather in men then in gouernment of Townes and therefore shall the Church be wel established when it shall haue many Christians and then dispoiled when it shall haue few Arch. That seemes to mee to be true Latt Now then he that is the cause of the destruction of any one Christian man dispoileth more the Church of Iesus Christ then he that taketh from the Pope his temporall dignities Arch. Let it be so Latt Then tel me now you what number of Christians haue perished since the Pope began this war to assure as you say his estate I omit the other mischiefs which wars draweth on with it Arch. Infinite Lat. Now you see that hee that hath bin the cause of this destruction hath more despoiled the church then he that should haue bereaued the Pope of his temporall dignitie But let vs see if anie man should haue caught from Iesus Christ his Cloake do you beleeue that he would haue taken Armes to haue defended it Arch. No surely Latt Why then would you haue the Pope to do it seeing you say hee was appointed to that ende that he should imitate Iesus Christ Arch. In this maner the Church should neuer keep any Signorie euerie one would pull a peece from it if they thought the Pope might not defend it Latt Whether it bee necessarie or profitable to the Church for the Popes to haue temporal seignories or not let them look to that but surely mee thinkes they might much better intende matters spirituall if they did not so much entangle themselues with temporall euen in that which you haue said you are much deceaued For if the Pope would bee content to imitate Iesus Christ and liue indeede as his Vickar hee should not onely not lose any part of his lands but rather much more should be giuen vnto him and let vs see how he holds any thing of that hee hath but by that meanes Arch. You say the trueth but now there is scarsely any charitie in the world Latt It is your selues with your euill liues that quench the fire of Charitie and in your selues it lieth to kindle and enflame it If you would Arch. You would haue vs enflame charitie by loosing all wee haue Latt And why not if it haue bene giuen you for Gods sake why should you not bee content for Gods sake to forgoe it It is most certaine that all true Christians should so do we hold possesse our goods temporal with this condicion that we should bee alwaies readie to leaue them whensoeuer we shal see it conuentent for the honor and glorie of Christ Iesus and for the common good of Christendome how much more then ought you of the Clergie to do the same yea and how much more in dutie then ought the Vickar of Iesus Christ to do it Arch. You are so holy as I neede not meddle with you suerly we haue no neede of such at Rome Latt Nether would I desire to liue among such wicked people Arch. You meane as there are now there Latt Neither yet as these that were there for in an infected flocke there is bad choise to be made Arch. What do you then account vs as bad as those Roysters Latt As bad Ney I would you were not much worse Arch. Wherefore Latt Because you are much more pernitious vnto the whole commonweale by your bad example Arch. And I pray you what be they Latt They make not profession to be the ministers of God as you doe neither haue they liuing for such as they haue neither is there any that will seeke or ought to seeke to immitate them as they should you But staie a while I haue not yet doone for hetherto haue I handled this matter calling the Pope Christs vicar now will I handle it making accoumpt or supposing the Pope is also a secular Prince as the Emperour to the end you may the more cleerely see the Error you were in And as concerning the first it is most certaine that the Pope receiued this dignitie by the fauour of the Emperour and hauing so gotten it behold what gratitude immediatlie he comforts himselfe with the King of Fraunce at his entrance into Italie and left the freendship of the Emperour Yea and some auerre that the Pope himselfe was the solisitor and causer of his entrance into Italie and notwithstanding all this the Emperour hauing the victorie against the French King was not onely content not to take from the Pope his territories of Parma and Placentia as both in Iustice and Reason he mought then haue doone but ratified the league that his Embassadour made with him yet the Pope notwithstanding not contented with this began to frame a newe league in Italie against the Emperour after the Frenche King was Prisoner But that secret practise was discouered and so tooke no effect And yet could not all this so alienate the Emperours minde but that hee sought by all honest and reasonable meanes to content the Pope and to procure him to be a meane in that peace which was intreatie betweene him and the King of Fraunce and that he should not hinder it but he was neuer able to attaine it Yet in the meane time was this peace concluded with Fraunce but so soone as the King was set at libertie the Pope began to procure a new league with him against the Emperour hauing receiued no occasion in the world at his hands so to doe and all this euen at that time when the Turkes with a puisant Armie began to enter by the kingdome of Hungary doe you thinke that this was a good parte The enemies were come to our gates and we brew warres within the house He requires the Emperour that he should not prepare any forces to resist the Turke and yet himselfe secretly prepareth to make warre vpon the Emperor Do you thinke that these were works of a Christian Prince Arch. But let vs see on the other side why the Emperour did not iustice to the Duke of Millan for if he had comitted no fault was it not good reason he should restore his state to him againe Latt Yes surely and therefore sir behold the Emperor placed Frauncis Sforsa in the state of Millan whereas he might haue tane it to himselfe seeing he hath much more right therevnto then that Duke and that onely for the peace and ease of Italy and all Christendome he was content to bestowe it on such a man at whose hands he neuer had receiued any seruice And afterward the Emperour vnderstood by his Captaines that the same Duke had conference and had taken parte in that league which the Potentates of Italie had made against him And seeing therein he had committed treason it was good reason that as a rebell disgraded he should be depriued of his state Arch. And how will you depriue a man
vnheard Latt And why not when the fault is euident and manifest or by delay might ensue inconuenience as at that time when the armie of the Emperour was in extreame danger if it had not possessed it selfe of the Citties and Villages in the state of Millane Arch. But whie did not the Emperour afterwards cause inquirie to be duely made to haue vnderstood the truthe and then to haue restored the state vnto him if hee had beene found faultlesse Latt And where haue you seene a man accused in causes criminall to answer by a Procter especially in matter of treason he might haue presented himselfe and so haue beene tryed by order of Iustice But that absenting of himselfe did sufficiently prooue he was culpable Arch. He feared the Captaines of the Emperour whome he knew to beare him small good will Latt In good faith he feared his owne iniustice for behould so soone as he was escaped out of the Castell of Millaine he ioined himselfe with the enemies of the Emperour But what had the Pope to doe in that matter if a Prince will punish his Vassall hath he to intermeddle therein Or if he had to doe therewithall and that it did appertaine vnto his office was it not sufficient that the Emperour had referred all to Don Hugo di Moncada offering him all that he could demaund What man is there in the world that would not rather enioy one with peace then two with warres if the Pope so much desired that the Duke Francis Sforsa should be restored to his estate onely because neither the Emperour should enioye it himselfe nor should giue it to the infant Don Hernando his kinsman why did he not accept that which Don Hugo di Moncada did offer on the parte of the Emperour who was content that the said state should rest in the power of the Treceros till such time as the right of the Duke might be seene and that if he were not in fault in those matters he was charged that then he should be immediatly restored and if he were found in fault and that he ought to be depriued yet the Emperour promised that neither he would take it to himselfe nor bestowe it on the Infant Don Hernando but on the Duke of Burboune who was one of those that by the Pope himselfe was first set downe for it But will you that I tell you the Pope ment to hold it himselfe and thought that the Armie of the Emperour being defeated they should be able not onely to turne him out of Lumbardie but also out of Italie and to take from him his kingdome of Naples as they had agreed and made partition among themselues And vpon this hope the Pope would not accept of that which by Don Hugo the Emperour had offered him Arch. It was not for any such matter but only because he was in league with others he would not breake his faith with them Latt This is a gentle excuse but I pray you why should he rather obserue his faith giuen to the French King for the destruction of Christendome then his former othe giuen to the Emperour for remedie of the same he should much rather haue broken the latter giuen to the French King then the first giuen to the Emperour Doe you not knowe that a vowe made to the hurte or preiudice of your neighbour ought not to be obserued how much more then such an oth as tendeth to the hurte of all Christendome the dishonour of GOD and destruction of such a multitude of people as haue suffered by meanes thereof Arch. Surelie in this I must confesse you haue very great reason but you consider not how the Emperours armie menaced to inuade the Territories of the Pope and that the Pope as a good Prince seeing you will so call him is bound to defend thē and you knowe well euen the lawe of nature permitteth euerye man to defend his owne Latt If the Pope would haue kept the league which he had made with the Emperour or would haue accepted that which was newly offered vnto him his armie would neuer haue threatned to haue entred on the Popes territorie And yet if all were as your selfe saie and that the lawe of Nature permitteth euery man to defend his owne yet tell me do you Iudge that Princes haue the same Authority ouer their people that you haue ouer your Mule Arch. Wherefore not Latt Because Beastes are made for the seruice of Man but Man onely for the seruice of God let vs see were Princes made for the people or people for the Princes sake Arch. Surely I beleeue Princes were ordeined for the peoples sake Latt Then a good Prince without respect of his perticular interest is bound to procure the good of his people onely seeing for their sake he was ordeined Arch. Indeed in reason it ought so to be Latt Well then let vs put the case that the Emperors Armie woulde haue inuaded and possessed the Territories of the Church and let vs consider whether were better for the inhabitants that the Pope should freely haue surrendred to the Emperour or in defence of them to doe as he hath doone Arch. Surely if we shall haue regard onely to the profit of the people there is no doubt if the Pope had freely giuen all those territories to the Emperour they should not haue suffered so great damage as they haue doone but shewe me a Prince that will doe this Latt I will shew you euen the Emperour himselfe doe you not know that he might with verie great reason and iustice haue tane to himselfe both the Dukedome of Millane and the Seignorie of Genua seeing there is not any that haue so good right to them as himselfe But because he saw it was better for the good of the people that hee should bestow the one on Frauncis Sforza and in the other to establish the Adorni he did it franckly and liberallie lesse regarding his owne benefite then the publique weale as euery good Prince ought Arch. If al men should do that they ought to do then both spiritual and temporall all should be the Popes Latt The Popes and why Arch. Because he would gouerne them better and more holily then any other Latt And are you not ashamed to say so do you not know that there are not any territories worse gouerned then those of the Church Arch. Yes I know it wel but I thought you had not known it Arch. But let vs consider also if the Pope plaied the part of a good Prince in taking Armes against the Emperour at whose handes hee had receiued so many benefites breaking the peace friendship he held with him Arch. The Pope did not take Armes against the Emperour but against that vnbrideled armie that committed horrible extortions and other abhominable things in the state of Millane and right and reason would those poore people should be deliuered from that Tirannie Latt I meruaile that you should say such a thing for let vs see if the Pope
of Rome to be destroied the which bee it good or bee it bad in conclusion it is the head of Christendome he ought to haue had an other manner of regarde therevnto Latt I haue already plainely shewed you that this was not doone neither by the commaundement nor by the will of the Emperour and further that your selues began to make the warre when there was a truce and notwithstanding the Emperour ratified the peace so soone as it was presented Arch. But why should he keepe in Italie such wicked people as like rauenous Woolues should come to destroie that holye Cittie Latt If you your selues would haue bin contented to haue liued in peace not haue made war vpon the Emperor when he did nothing against you there had beene indeed no cause why he should haue mainteined or sent any such people into Italie would you haue it lawfull for your selues to make warres vpon vs and not lawfull for vs to defend our selues This were in deed a gentle manner of liuing Arch. Well let it be lawfull for you in Gods name but yet not with Infidels and Heretikes Latt Surely you speake very badlie heerein for as concerning the Almanes you cannot be certaine that they are Lutherans neither is it likely or credible considering they were sent by King Ferdinando his brother that dooth persequute the Lutherans But you your selfe haue receiued into your Armie Lutherans that were fled out of Almany and with them haue you made warres vpon the Emperour And as concerning the Spaniards and Italians which you call Infidels if your meaning be to call wicked liuing Infidilitie Who are then more Infidels then your selues for where may a man finde more vices yea or so many or so publique or so free of punishment as in your court of Rome or who euer committed so great and abhominable cruelties as that Armie of the Pope in the territories of the Colonesi if those of the Emperors bee Infidels for liuing so ill why are not those of yours Infidels that are much worse If it be lawfull for you to make warres with people that you your selues repute Infidels why shall it not be lawful for vs to defend our selues with a people that we take not to be Infidels what a mockerie is this That which you doe against the Emperour you do it not against him but against his Armie but that the Armie dooth against you is not doone by the Armie but by the Emperour Arch. Well let vs say the Army did it without commaundement without consent and against the will of the Emperour And that his Maiestie was in no faulte let vs then see when it was doone whye hath hee not punished the offendours and ill dooers Latt Because he knoweth it to be a thing rather diuine then humane And because he is accustomed rather to do good for ill then ill for good And a gentill toye it were for him to chastice and punishe those that venter their liues for him and in his seruice Arch. Well then seeing ye will not chastice and punish them yet why would ye be any longer serued with such a people as had committed so horrible and abhominable outrage Latt For two respects first to auoid the mischiefe they would haue done being disbanded or cashed and also to resist the flames that your selues had kindled For a mockerie had it beene at that time when the French were marching into Italie for the Emperour to cash or dissolue his Armie Arch. I cannot well tell what to replie and surely in this you haue verie fullie perfourmed your promise and in this I must confesse I was much abused But now I would desire you to open vnto mee the causes why God hath permitted the euilles which haue bin done in Rome seeing you say it hath bene for the great good of Christendome Latt Seeing in the first you rest satisfyed I doubt not by Gods helpe but to leaue you much better contented in the second but seeing it now late wee will leaue that part for after dinner because I meane now to deteine you for my guest Arch. It shal bee sir as you commaund for hether we may afterwardes returne againe The second part Lattantio TO accomplish now that which I haue promised you hauing alreadie halfe done in performing the first part ye wil not denie me that all the vices al the deceipts that the mallice of Man was able to inuent was not conioined togither in that Cittie which with great reason ye name the holie Citie because it ought so to be Arch. Surely therin you haue great reason and God knoweth what I alwaies thought of that matter and what I felt at hart to see that Citie which in reason ought to be euen the patterne of vertues to all the world to be so full of vices chafferie deceipt and manifest villeinies Such sale made of Offices Benefices Buls Indulgences and Dispensations so shameleslie that in verie trueth it seemed a verie mockerie of the Christian Faith and that the Ministers of the Church tooke no other care but only to inuent means to scrape money The Pope pawned certaine Apostles that he had of Gold and afterwards made an imposition to be leuied by Buls pro redemptione Apostolorum It is straunge they were not ashamed to commit thinges so foule and preiudiciall to their owne dignitie Latt The very same say all they that come thence and the same did I my selfe know when I was there But come you hether If your Sonnes Arch. Ah sir speake courteouslie Latt Pardon mee I remembred not you were a Clarke albeit yee haue manie Clarkes that take no shame to haue Children but this speech I onely vse for an example Arch. Well then speake on Latt If your Sonnes should happen to haue a verie vicious and bad Scholemaister and that you did perceaue that by his vicious and bad manners hee did infect them what would you do Arch. I would manie times admonish him that he should amend but if he would not do it I would vse my aucthoritie ouer him and chastice him gently that for feare of ill he should amend if he would not for the loue of good Latt Then behold heere God is Father to vs all and hath deliuered vs vnto the Pope as vnto our Scholemaister to the end wee should learne of him and of those that are about him to liue like Christians But seeing the vices of that court of Rome were such and so great that they infected these Children of God that wee did not onely not learn of them the doctrine of Christ but rather a manner of life most contrarie God seeing that neither the Prophets the Euangelistes nor such a number of learned Doctors as haue written in times past reprouing vices and praising vertues could moue them that liued wickedly to amend and liue like Christians he sought out new means to draw them to do their duties And besides manie other verie good Maisters and Preachers sent vs in times past hee
hath sent euen in these our daies that excellēt Man Erasmus Roterodamus who with much eloquence prudence and modestie in manie of his workes discouering the vices and deceipts of the Romans Court and in generall of all the Persons Ecclesiasticall a man would haue thought it had bin ynough to haue mooued all such as in that calling liued so wickedly to haue amended for very shame of those thinges were spoken of them But when this would nothing profite them but that their wickednesse rather daily more and more encreased God sought a new meane to conuert them and therefore permitted that Frier Martin Luther to rise vp who should not onely vtterlie shame them declaring without any respect all their vices but should also draw a number of people from the obedience of these prelats to the end that such as would not be mooued with shame might at least for coueteousnes of their worldly wealth be reformed seeing how much yee should loose by the reuolt of Almanie or for ambition seeing how great a Seignorie yee should part withal if Almanie should fall from your obediēce in sort as presently it doth Arch. But that Friar hath not onely spoken euil of vs but also of God in a thousand heresies that he hath written Latt You say the truth but if your selues had not first amended that which with great reason he reprooued and not irritated him farther with your excommunications perhaps hee neuer would haue broken out into those heresies which afterwards he wrote nether should yee haue had in Germanie so great a distruction of soules and bodies as since by meanes therof hath happened Arch. But stay sir this could not be remedied without a coūcel general they say it was not fit at that time to cal a councell for that it had bin a manifest betraying of all the ecclesiastical persons so as if at that time we should haue called a general coūcel we might haue gone al to the Hospital the Pope too with vs for company Latt How so Arch. The whole states of the Empire presented certaine wrongs which they said they receaued of the apostolik Sea of many persōs ecclesiastical in euery point they required redres Latt And why then did you not redresse them Arch. Therabout we went but they alledged that seeing the rents of the church were giuen and appointed for reliefe and succour of the poore that they should bee spent that way and not in warres nor in vices nor in pride as at this day for the most part they are And then they farther desired that the people and not the clergie should haue the administration of them And then they desired that no dispensation should be giuen for money alledging that aswell the poore were the Children of God as the ritch and that giuing dispensations for money the Poore who in reason should be most priueledged were most oppressed and the Ritch contrariwise most priueledged Latt And were not you in that as I haue often bene and still am astonished in such sort as I know not what to say I see on the one side that Christ praiseth pouerty and inuiteth vs with his most perfect example thereunto but on the other side I see wee can scarsly get any thing of his Ministers but for money at Baptisme money at Bishoping money at Mariage money at Holy Orders money for Confession money for discharge of Excommunications money no not Extreame Vnction without money they will ring no Bels without money no Buriall in the Church without money no hearing of Masse in times of Interdiction without money So that it seemeth by them that Paradize is shut vp from them that haue no money Then what meaneth this that the Ritche is buried in the Church and the poore in the Church yard If Christ had meant that his Church should haue bin more partiall to the Ritch then to the Poore why doth hee councell vs to pouertie The Ritch man may marrie with his neerest kin but the poore not so albeit he be readie to die for loue of her The Ritch may eate flesh in Lent but the poore may not albeit Fish perhaps be much dearer The ritch man readily getteth large indulgences but the poore none because hee wanteth money to pay for them And of this manner yee shall finde an infinite number of other thinges and you shall not want of them that will alledge manie things to be done for the seruice of God as to found Churches and Monasteries to say many Masses manie Trentals and to buye many Tapers to burne vpon your Sepulture Iesus Christ doth councell mee to dispise and leaue all these worldly thinges to follow him and thou dost councel me to seeke them You should do me a verie great pleasure to shew me the reason they can alledge for it for as God shall saue mee I neither know nor can conceaue anie Arch. In good faith yee are now climing a good Tree but heare you I neuer brake my Braine about these matters that could yeeld mee no profite Latt Now wel mought you thee I pray God Arch. Besides all this they said that when vnto the Clergie these liberties and Immunities were first giuen which yet they hold they were then poore imparted that they had with others that were in want more then themselues but now they are much more ritch then their founders and that it seemed neither honest nor reasonable that the poorer sort of the people should be burdened with impositions when the Cleargie vpon whom they spent all should be exempted They said also that they had so many feasts dayes to obserue that workemen and labourers receiued great preiudice thereby and that by proofe it was seene that men vpon those daies did not exercise themselues in such matters as they ought but in other matters much worse then vpon other daies so that it were conuenient also to haue some moderation of these holy dayes Latt And what do you thinke that they spake amisse therein Arch. And will you defend them to Doe you not see that those Saints whose feasts you would abolish would be offended and thereby some great ill might happen vnto vs. Latt Yea but doe not you see that those Saints haue much more cause to be offended with the vices and villanies committed vpon those festiuall dayes then if men did onely worke for their liuing Surely if men did truely serue God vpon these festiuall dayes I would wish euery day festiuall but seeing this is not doone I cannot hold it ill that they were moderated if a man play the drunkard or play all day at Boules or at Dice or wander about women or other like villanies we thinke we haue not broken the feast But if another forced by extreame necessitie worke to get his meate presently they say this is an heretike I cannot skill of these seruices it greeueth men to see ritch men vpon these dayes to take all their pleasures and to laye the whole burthen on the
I trouble my head with these profound matters Latt And how profound which thinke you of greatest valew either the soule of some simple bodie or the body of a Saint Arch. This is out of question that a soule is much better then a body Latt Why then what reason haue you in seeking to honor the body of some saints as they say which perhaps notwithstanding is the boddy of some theefe to put in perrill so many soules Arch. You say the trueth and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort Latt Very well and yet euen these that should admonish are many times themselues ignorant And yet besides all this why should you put any one soule in danger without necessitie Let vs see if you would in this Towne goe to our Ladies church of Prado and knew not the waye would you not thinke it a verye great inhumanity if any man would direct you through the Riuer with greate daunger to drowne you therein when you might more safelye and more quickelye haue gone ouer by the Bridge Arch. Yes surely Latt And wherefore then do you seeke after Reliques Arch. Because many times they stir me to deuotion Latt And deuotion to what end desire you Arch. To salue my soule Latt Seeing then you may saue your Soule without perill of damning it woulde you not rather choose the more safe waie Arch. Yes and our confessors also say it is a sinne for vs wittingly to put our selues in danger to sinne Latt They say therein the very truth Arch. But yet what way haue you of greater safetie Latt The same which Christ himselfe taught to loue God aboue all things and to put in him our whole trust Arch. You say the truth But because I cannot do that I go about to doe this other Latt This is a great heresie to say you cannot do it desire at least of God grace to doe it But if you will say you do request it and that God will not doe it you make God a lyar who saith Aske and you shall haue And farther what a blindnesse is this doe you thinke to goe to heauen without fulfilling of the commaundements of God albeit you haue an Arme of a Saint or the peece of the Crosse or the whole Crosse in your house you may be an enemie to the crosse and doe you thinke to saue your selfe by the Crosse Arch. Surely I was deceiued Latt Then behold the common sort haue so much more iust cause to complaine on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions to put them in danger of their soules then you of him that should guide you through the riuer with danger to drowne you as the soule is more worthie then the bodie Arch. Well but yet the common sort are more easilye by things visible induced and directed to the inuisible Latt You say truely and therefore hath Iesus Christ left vs his holye sacrament of the Altar and hauing this I knowe not wherefore we haue need of any other Arch. And the true reliques indeed would you not haue them kept and garnished with Gold and Siluer Latt No surely Arch. Wherefore Latt Not to giue occasion of such another spoile as this of Rome nor yet to make men thinke that the Saints are pleased to possesse these things that those which are good men do glory to contemne Arch. You say well but doe you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with vs for taking away the Golde and siluer wherein their bones be inclosed and being so offended may doe vs some hurt Latt No rather I thinke they would be verie well pleased to see those thinges taken and imploied on the poore who many times perish for famin not hauing what to eate Arch. That vnderstand not I vnlesse you explaine your meaning better Latt I wil shew you plainly that Saint which whilest hee liued in this world and had need of these goods did neuerthelesse leaue them and empart them to the poore for the loue of Christ Iesu do you not beleeue that much more he would be pleased to haue the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to vse them Arch. Yes surely I think so for wee that be no Saintes yet when we die and cannot carrie our goods with vs wee are well pleased to giue them to the poore and to deuide them among Churches and Monasteries Lattan Why then tell mee wherefore should you thinke a Saint should bee greeued to haue that done with his goods now hee is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Arch. No surely I thinke a Saint would be verie wel pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Latt Then you see plainly that the Saintes who while they liued were so wel pleased to distribute their owne goods among the poore would now much more bee pleased to helpe the poore with that siluer and gold which good people haue presented vnto them after they were dead Arch. So God saue me this reason is verie good and I beleeue you say herein also the verie truth and yet surely the common sort would be offended Lattan No on my faith I dare assure you there would bee no offence taken if it were prouided that such superstitious people as regarded more theire Bellye then the Glorie of Christ Iesus shoulde not goe aboute to prouoke them to offence Arch. Surely for this matter I hold my selfe fullie satisfied Lattan Thus you see how Iesus Christ hath suffred that in Rome so greate a Sacke and spoile should bee committed on Reliques to remedie the decâ—iptes that were committed by them Archde Well this I confesse so as you will also declare vnto mee touching the small reuerence vsed towardes the Images what the reason should bee that God would suffer that Latt That I will tell you neither will I denie that it was verie ill done but God hath permitted it not without verie great cause For you may see among the common people yea and euen among many of the principall persons also that they did so muche repose themselues vppon Images and thinges visible that they had no care at all of the inuisible In my Countrey a verie good Man a Deuine going a visitation of a Bishopricke in the behalfe of the Bishoppe founde in one Church an Image of our Ladie which they saide did manie Miracles and was set ouer against an Altar of the Sacrament in comparison whereof all Images in the Worlde are lesse then nothing And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breastes before that Image of our Ladie The good man when hee saw so great an Ignominie as was thereby done to our Sauiour Iesus Christ conceiued so great a griefe as hee tooke away that Image and brake it into peeces The people so much were mooued with this act that they would haue killed him but GOD
deliuered him out of theire handes The Clergie of that Churche beeing offended for theire rentes that thereby they had lost trauelled with the people to complaine to the Bishop thinking he would presently send to burne the poore visitator The Bishoppe like a wise Man vnderstanding the matter how it passed reprooued the Visitor of the contempt hee had committed in breaking the Image into peeces but commended much his act in remoouing it from that place so that seeing there was so fewe such good Visitors in Christendome that would be agreeued with the dishonour done to GOD and to take away such superstitious God permitted these Souldiers to commit that spoile you speake of to the ende that leauing all superstition wee should in such sorte honor Images as wee do not dishonor Iesus Christ Archd. Surely this is a most Godlie consideration and farther I promise you there is great need of remedie in this matter especially in Italie Latt Nay euen here also aswell as there And if you will looke well into this matter you shal see the verie same deceipts in Images that were in Reliques Archde I knowe you saye truely but I coulde tell you of another matter that euen in thinking of it my fleshe trembleth Latt Tell it mee and be not afraid Arch. Can you imagine a greater wickednesse then to breake open the Pixe of the Altar and to let faule on the ground the holie Sacrament Is it possible any good can come of this Oh Christian eares that can endure to heare it Latt Good God and haue you seene this too Arch. No but surely all men say it was so Latt That which I haue heard was that a Souldier tooke the Pixe of Gold and left the sacrament vppon the Altar and did not throw it down on the ground as you say but howsoeuer it was a meruellous boldnesse and woorthie of great correction but in truth it is no new matter but a thing that happeneth many times amonge Souldiers and the fault is theirs which choose rather to liue in warre then in peace But if it had neuer bin heard of before do you think this to be the greatest abhomition that could be done think you that it were not much woorse to throw it into a dunghill Arch. How into a dunghill Lattan I will tell you but first tell mee which stinketh woorst before GOD a deade Dogge that lieth vpon a Doung hill or a Soule that obstinatelye continueth in his sinnes Arch. A Soule for Saint Augustine saith Quod tollerabilius fetet Canis putridus hominibus quam anima peccatrix Deo Latt Then you will not deuie me that a sinful soule is a foule filthie dunghill Arch. No surely Lattan Seeing then a Priest that rising in the Morning from his Queane that I saye no woorse of course goeth to say Masse A Prieste I saye that holdes his Benefice by Symmonye and carrieth in his hart mortall rancor against his neighbour that by right or wrong will heape vp ritches becomming obstinate in these and other vices yea in much more woorse then these goe euerie daie to receaue the Sacrament do you not thinke that to let it fall in such an one is muche woorse then to let it fall into a stinkinge Dounghill Arch. You talke to mee in a new language I know not what to answere you Lattan I meruell not though truth seeme to you a new language But behold now how this is the cause that God hath suffered these things to be done that Clarkes seeing how great abhomination it is to handle in this sort the Bodie of Christ might thereby knowe and remember that themselues haue handled it muche woorse that departing from their wicked manner of liuinge they might clense their Soules from vices and beautifye it with Vertues that Christe might come to dwell in them and not to keepe him as they doe bannished from them Arch. Now as God saue me you haue verie well satisfyed me in all my doubtes and I was euen now meruelling to see how blinded all men were in these externall thinges without hauing regard to the internall Lattan You haue verie great reason to meruell for in verie truth it is a great pittie to see the false opinions wherein the common sorte are drowned and howe backwarde wee are to become Christians and howe contrarie our woorkes are to the Doctrine of Christ Iesus and howe wee are burthened with Superstitions and in mine opinion all proceede from a pestiferous Auarice and pestilent Ambition which at this time raigneth much more among Christians then in any other time to what purpose do you thinke do they perswade the people that an Image of Woode goeth to recouer Prisoners and returnes all sweating but onelie to allure the simple sort to make offeringes to that Image to make thereof their owne profit neither haue they anie feare of GOD in this sorte to abuse and deceaue the people as thoughe our Ladie had no other meane to redeeme Prisoners but to take with her a woodden Image And albe it this bee a most ridiculous thinge yet do the common people by reason of their authoritte beleeue it and in this manner they make men also beleeue that if they cause so many masses to be said with so many candles at the second sorrow that you shall recouer that you haue lost O wretched sinner knowest thou not that in this superstition this cannot but bee a worke of the diuell And were it not better thou shouldest loose all that thou hast in the world then that thou shouldest introduce into a thing so holy a thing so wicked Euen of like accoumpt are these names which you carry about your necks to escape death by fire by water and the handes of enemyes enchantments and charmes made as the common people call them for men and beasts I cannot imagine how we came into so great a blindnesse that wee are falne into a manner of Gentillitie He that will seeke to honour a Saint should trauaile to follow his holy vertue but now in liewe thereof wee chase Buls vpon his daye besides many other abuses which are committed we say and hold it a great deuotion to kill foure Buls vpon S. Bartholmewes day and if we kill them not we are afraide that he will spoile our Vines what greater gentilitye can you wish then this what is it lesse to hould deuotion in killing foure Buls on his daie then to sacrifice foure Buls vnto S. Bartholmew I doe not thinke it ill that the people for recreation should assemble chase and kill Buls on that day but I thinke surelye that it is a wicked thing to thinke that by such acts we please God or his Saints for in truth betweene killing of Buls with such intent and sacrificing of Buls I know no difference Will you see another Heathenish custome as plaine as this Behold how we haue deuided among our Saints euen the very same offices that the gods of Paynims had insteed of Mars we haue S.