not answere directly and plainly 19. Ibidem qu. 58. I would also vnderstand whether M. Cartwright and his fellowes haue not confessed on their othes taken in the Starre-chamber that notwithstanding all that care that hath bene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers points and whether they did wisely to subscribe to such orders or dutifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused imperfect platforme of gouernment to the Parliament that it might be confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and last of all whether it were wisdome to dissolue a state already setled to embrace a gouernment wherupon the authors themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke euer will be and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice doth not he that holdeth his peace consent 20. Ibidem qu. 59. I desired to heare whether M. Cartwright and his companions do not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the Parliament for the receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernment commaunded by Gods word and therefore do vtterly disclaime by a most necessary implication her Maiestie to haue any preeminence and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they do not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuil magistrate but yeeld all that power to their synodes classes and consistories It may also be further demaunded of him how this forme may be deemed perfect seeing they confesse they were not yet resolued vpon diuers points M. Cartwright answereth nothing 21. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did not vnderstand Answere to the petit qu. 60. that Copinger pretended an extraordinary calling which moued him to attempt matters that might proue very dangerous It might also haue bene demaunded of him whether albeit he would not be acquainted with the particulers of his lewd purposes yet he knew not that something was in hand for his and others deliuerance out of prison and for the aduancement of the consistoriall gouernment M. Cartwright standeth mute 22. Ibidem qu. 61. I doubted whether M. Cartwright mainteyning the excommunication of princes by the eldership and other points of Fenners booke doeth not mainteine doctrine as dangerous as Sanders Rosse and Allen that mainteine the excommunication of princes by the Pope and the Popes proceedings and yet M. Cartwright resolueth me not 23. Ibidem q. 75. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright did reueile to any magistrate the letters of Copinger or his strange deseignements but he deigneth not to satisfie any such demaund 24. Ibidem qu. 92. I asked whether M. Cartwrights answere to the Rhemish annotations vpon the new Testament cōtaine not diuers points of doctrine contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this Church and all sound diuinitie and why if it bee otherwise he doth not subiect it to the censures of the learned and what saith hee nothing 25. Ibidem qu. 93. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright or some friend of his did not threaten excōmunication against a certeine marchant at Middlebourg if he would not desist pursuing a seruant of his that had wasted his goods and whether such courses bee allowable All or most of these questions M. Cartwright passeth ouer in silence and doeth not so much as touch them in his apologie how nigh soeuer they touch him Beside these questions diuers other matters were asked of of M. Cartwright in the Starre-chamber whereto he hath either answered nothing at all or nothing to purpose Being demaunded Interrog 2. how far forth he hath affirmed or alowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to bee restreined by the iniunctions vnder colour whereof diuers allow and sweare to the supremacie that otherwise cōdemne it M. Cartwright saith he is not bound to answere the secret of his opinion belike he feareth to disclose Being demaunded Interrog 3. whether he hath mainteined or allowed that the king being no pastor doctor nor elder is to be accompted among the Church gouernours and whether in a well ordered Church the prince may ordeine orders and ceremonies in the Church M. Cartwright saith hee is not bound to answere and being reexamined as the Iudges determined hee ought he persisted in his former obstinacie a plaine argument of his peruerse opinion concerning her Maiesties gouernment in causes Ecclesiasticall Being demaunded Interrog 4. whether he did acknowledge the Ecclesiastical gouernment established by her Maiestie to be lawful and allowable by Gods word M. Cartwright answered that he tooke not himselfe bound to answere and so persisted being reexamined ergo he thought it not lawfull Being demaunded Interrog 5. whether he would acknowledge the Sacraments to be duly and sincerely ministred as they be ordeined to be ministred by the booke of common prayer M. Cartwright answered that he was not bound to answere and reexamined still refused to yeeld any further answere doeth he then thinke them to be sincerely and duly administred in our Church Being demaunded whether hee thought those that fauourd not the discipline to be accompted Christian brethren in the same sence Interrog 6. and as properly as men of his opinion M. Cartwright refused to answere as to a matter impertinent behold I beseech you how he accompteth of vs that mislike his new disciplinarian deuises Being examined whether he thought the Church of England refusing the presbyteriall gouernment to be the true Church in as proper sence Interrog 7. as that Church that embraceth the same M. Cartwright according to his olde tune refused to answere and said he was not bound Being demaunded Interrog 22. how farre he hath affirmed that without breach of the peace of the church of England as it is now gouerned men might treat of alteratiō of lawes proceed to practise the new discipline he maketh a sleight vnsufficient answere Being demanded at how many classicall or synodical assemblies he had bene present Interrog 23. 24. and what was treated in them hee either staggreth or answereth not Being demanded Interrog 24. whether in their assemblies they had not treated and concluded diuers matters direct contrary to the Ecclesiasticall lawes as for example that vnpreaching ministers are no ministers that no obedience is to bee giuen to Archbishops or Bishops that their ordination was to be receiued onely as a ciuile ordinance M. Cartwright answereth that they were treated of but not concluded and prayeth not to be pressed to answer further viz. how farre these matters were liked of which argueth his dislike of Ecclesiasticall lawes and presumption in determining against them Being demaunded whether he had not treated Answere to the interrogat in Starre-chamber Interrog 27. or propounded certaine meanes of maintenance for Archbishops and Bishops deanes and other officers and ministers Ecclesiastical hauing
of this Church Fiftly I desired to be resolued Ibidem q. 22. whether all the errours of Barrowisme do not follow and may be concluded of M. Cartwrights and his consorts assertions and whether it bee a matter fit that these men should deale with that sort of sectaries and not rather be constrained publikely to recant their owne foule errors All these questions M. Cartwright answereth with silence Sixtly Ibidem q. 24. I mooued a question whether M. Cartwright and his consorts do not either flatly deny or call in question the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and whether they take not from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church likewise authoritie to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiastical courts to cal synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuoure to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statute of the princes supremacie and prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church of England and of her Maiesties subiects if M. Cartwright meant to haue satisfied the doubt concerning his opinion and conceit of her Maiesties supremacie as he goeth about it he ought to haue answered this question directly and particulerly not doing it who seeth not that he slideth away in cloudes of generalitie and priuate conceites of his owne fancy concerning this matter Seuenthly it was demaunded Answere to the petit q. 26. 29. whether by M. Cartwrights rules in those places where they are receiued the Church goods are not spoiled and the liuings of the ministery deuided and rewards of learning taken away and also whether if the same should here be receiued the like wrack would not be wrought and her Maiestie depriued of tenthes and subsidies and a great part of her reuenues and of many faithfull and loyall seruitors which by those lawes being made vnable to liue would also be made vnable to doe her seruice Hee hath nothing to answere that will make for him Eightly it was asked Ibidem qu. 30. whether M. Cartwright and his followers haue not in all places where they haue bene receiued made sectes and diuisions and hardened mens hearts and filled their minds with pride and humorous vanities to which he saith nothing Percase he knoweth it is no slander Ninthly Ibidem qu. 31. I demaunded whether it be not dangerous for this state that M. Cartwright and his partakers haue so much vrged this Church to imitate the examples of Geneua and Scotland considering the dangerous courses which they tooke and the hard effects that followed of them It cannot be denied and therefore M. Cartwright holdeth his peace 10. Ibidem qu. 33. The question was asked whether that the subuersion of the state of the Church which foloweth necessarily of M. Cartwrights disciplinarian deuises is not a great scandale and hinderance to the reformation of true Religion in other places It is most apparent and therefore M. Cartwright forbeareth to answere 11. Ibidem q. 34. It is demaunded whether M. Cartwright doe not as well subiect Princes to excommunication as Sanders or Allen or other Papistes and whether his doctrine is not as pernicious to princes authoritie as theirs It must needs be granted and therefore he passeth by and saith iust nothing 12. Answere to the petit qu. 49. A doubt is made whether M. Cartwright doth beleeue that subiects may rebel against such Kings as they accompt Papists or tyrants as some of that side haue taught and hee passeth by in a graue silence 13. Ibidem qu. 51. It is asked whether M. Cartwright and his felowes haue not assembled in synodes or rather conuenticles and there enacted decreed certeine rules orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and also subscribed them procured others to subscribe them and by all possible meanes gone about without authoritie to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her Maiestie and ancient gouernment of Christ his Church This is most true and therefore passed ouer in silence 14. Idemaunded also whether they haue not in their said orders Ibidem qu. 52. which they call holy discipline taken al authoritie in Church causes from the Christian magistrate and giuen it to their consistories and synodes in so much that the magistrate is not once mentioned in that platforme and further I would know how the sufferance of these proceedings may stand with the maiestie of a Prince and with gouernment Likewise it may be demanded of M. Cartwright how he that hath bound himselfe to this forme of discipline by his word subscription may be thought to allow of her Maiesties supreme gouernment which the lawes of this land doe giue vnto her In this case he is as silent as Harpocrates 15. Ibidem q. 53. I desired to knowe whether M. Cartwright haue not taught that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their holy discipline as they call it is neither increased nor diminished whether the prince be Christian or heathen and likewise if he do not thinke or haue not taught that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one and that a Christian king hath no more to doe with the Church gouernment then any pagan prince or Emperour hath but he will tell vs nothing 16. Ibidem q. 54. I asked M. Cartwright whether he his adherents haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent authoritie or allowance and likewise without her authoritie or knowledge haue not both made secret meetings and established diuers newe orders and broched newe opinions and all contrary to the doctrine faith and gouernment of this Church of England this string M. Cartwright dare not touch 17. Ibidem q. 55. I asked him whether hee was not presumptuous if no more in doing these things and whether he ought not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults Likewise it may bee here asked of him whether hauing both in Fenners booke and his replies and writings taught written and allowed diuers points of false-doctrine he is not to be brought to a publike recantation for satisfaction of those weake ones that hee hath offended will it please him yet to answere this question directly 18. Answere to the petit qu. 57. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright swore truely in the Starre-chamber when he affirmed on his oth that he neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery monarchie there ought to be certain magistrates like to the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to controll and depose the king and to proceed further against him seeing he called M. Fenners booke wherein these points are expresly set downe the principles and grounds of heauenly Canaan and doth not onely without all exception allow it but also highly commend it this is also a point which he dare
According to the meaning of the statute I thinke he will not take the oath for then he should declare that the Queene hath power to establish and disanull Ecclesiasticall lawes to appoint Ecclesiasticall Iudges officers and commissioners to heare appeales or to appoint delegates to heare them when they are made from Ecclesiasticall courtes to nominate Bishops to receiue first fruits and tenthes of Ecclesiasticall liuings and such like rights priuiledges as the statutes of this land giue her but that he may not nor I thinke wil not do for that the lawes of their discipline deny it if so be he would I confesse he should satisfie me in this point but hee should vtterly ruinate the foundation of his aldermens consistoriall iurisdiction to whom they giue most of these things Yea I doubt whether others would be satisfied for as in religion it is a note of an hereticall disposition to doubt of the grounds of our faith so in policie it is a note of a disloyall person to doubt of the princes lawfull authoritie which the statutes giue her In which case seeing you were once albeit now you vtterly deny it I pray you let vs not haue you too much boast of your innocencie and that in such long Prefaces as that before your short briefe especially seeing heretofore you haue written and done many things to the praeiudice of her supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes In the booke of your holy discipline wherein you hold that a perfect forme of Church gouernment such as is prescribed in Gods word is conteined you haue vtterly excluded the princes authoritie and debarred him from all gouernment for you haue not so much as mentioned him In one of the disciplinarian bookes of common prayer 1 This booke they sought to haue confirmed by act of Parliament and administration of Sacraments you leaue out the Christian magistrate in another there is some mention made of him but it is in the ende of the booke and after all the officers of the Church described Thirdly in direct termes you say that the Christian magistrate can no more be an officer of the Church 2 2. reply p. 420. then the pastors can bee magistrates how then can he be supreme gouernor of the Church that is no gouernor at all 3 2. repl 2. parl p. 147. as you say You hold also that a Christian magistrate hath no more authoritie in the Church then a heathen prince which is sufficient to exclude him out of the Church gouernment Finally you do subiect him to the excommunication of your elderships and place the magistrate among those that are to obey and the elders among commanders Fourthly you wil not deny but that the Papists deny her Maiesties supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall how then can it be said that you hold a good opinion of it when you in your books do giue her no more authoritie then they and abridge the same as farre as they doe 4 2. repl p. 48. Doe you not deny that the prince ought to be called the head of particuler and visible Churches within his dominions Do you not likewise 5 Ibidem p. 157. 167. take from him authoritie to determine of Church causes and 6 1. reply p. 192. power to ordeine lawes and ceremonies It cannot be denied your wordes are plaine all which you borow from the Papists They subiect the prince to the Pope you to your elderships neither can you shew any other difference betwixt your selfes and them For where you say first that you doe not exempt your ministers frō the punishment of the ciuil magistrate as the Papists doe their Priestes you erre in both for both would you claime immunitie for your ministers and they do not simply exempt their priestes but in certeine cases The authors of the 7 Admonition 2. p. 65. admonition would haue themselues and their companions by act of Parliament exempted from the authoritie of Iustices and from their enditings and finings In your 8 Lib. 2. reply you would haue the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate to descend from Christ as God and not as mediator whereof it followeth that Christian princes haue no rule ouer their subiects as Christians but onely as men 1 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. as Saunders also holdeth all of you deny that any appeale is to be admitted from the determination of the synode to the prince How then are not the synodes exempt from princes iurisdiction when the prince hath no authoritie ouer them yea and in Suffolke certeine of this sect in a supplication to the Lords of her Maiesties counsell affirme that it was a hard course and tending to the discredit of the ministery that their ministers should be presented before the Iudges and endited arraigned and condemned Contrarywise 2 Against the apologie of the Church p. 306. Harding saith that good Kings may put Bishops and priestes in minde of their duties and bridle both their riot and arrogancie And in 3 Ibidem p. 303. another place that a prince may make lawes for the obseruation of both tables and punish the transgressors Feckenam 4 To bishop Horne offereth to sweare that her Maiestie hath vnder God the soueraintie and rule ouer all persons within her dominions whether they bee Ecclesiasticall or temporall Fatemur personas Episcoporum qui in toto orbe fuerunt saith 5 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders Romano Imperatori esse subiectos And for ciuil causes it is their common opinion that 6 Harding reioynd f. 379. priests may be conuented before ciuil Iudges and for Ecclesiastical causes certeine 7 Act. of Parliament anno 1584. acts 2. ministers of Scotland refused to answere before the king Secondly you say that the Papists will haue the prince to execute whatsoeuer they conclude be it good or bad which you will not For you graunt the prince authoritie to set order where there is no lawfull ministery and to stay vnlawfull decrees of lawfull ministers As if the 8 Hard. confus apol p. 304. 317. Papists did not grant as much or as if Papists held that the princes were to execute wicked decrees Againe it is euident that you would haue all men to stand to the 9 Admonit determination of your synodes And albeit your synodes doe decree bad things yet you wil not giue princes authoritie to iudge them How then can they stay them will you giue them extraordinary authoritie that is your meaning But how shall wee know when they worke by ordinary when by extraordinary authoritie Beside that you deny this extraordinary authoritie as long as there is a lawfull ministery And albeit your doings be vnlawfull yet you will not be stayed by the prince Thirdly you 10 2. p. 164. affirme that you do not vtterly seclude the prince from your Churchassemblies for oftentimes a simple man and as the prouerbe saith a gardner hath spoken to purpose
THE EXAMINATION OF M. THOMAS CARTVVRIGHTS late apologie Wherein his vaine and vniust challenge concerning certaine supposed slanders pretended to haue bene published in print against him is answered and refuted By MATTHEVV SVTCLIFFE Calumniari est falsa crimina intendere Marcianus L. 1. ff ad S.C. Turpilianum ¶ Imprinted at London by the Deputies of Christopher Barker printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Anno 1596. TO M. THOMAS CARTwright Master of the Hospitall at Warwike giue these in the I le of Gernesey or els where hee shal be then resiant ALthough Sir many of your good friends and folowers haue both long looked and much desired to heare from you yet I doe assure my selfe they looked for nothing lesse then to receiue from you such a slender and trifling pamphlet as this which goeth vnder the name of your apologie they expected rather to see those famous obseruations of yours which you haue written against the Rhemish annotations vpon the new Testament which they esteeme so highly or els some such like notable learned laborious worke against the cōmon enemie I for my part when I first heard that your name was once againe come in print and that ye had now at length broken your long kept silence looked at the least for some 1 Tanquam elephanti partum great and learned volume in defence of that cause for which you haue so much practised and so long and vehemently contended and which you were wont so highly to magnifie I did well remember how you promised that for 2 In the front of his first reply Syons sake you would not holde your peace nor for Hierusalems sake take any rest as if this matter of your forged discipline were your onely Syon and that holy Hierusalem for which you contended you tolde vs further and that I thinke in very good sadnesse that 3 1. reply if euery haire of your head were a life you ought to afford them al for the defence of your cause You affirmed also that your discipline 1 Preface 1. reply is agreat part of the Gospell that it is a 2 1. and 2. reply matter of faith and an essentiall note of the Church that the Church without it is like a garden 3 Pref. 1. reply without a hedge nay finally 4 M. Cartwr table that it is Christes kingdome vpon the earth I could not therefore thinke otherwise but that now you had vndertaken the defence and accomplishment of that most glorious and necessary worke Neither could I imagine that 5 1. Thess 2. contrary to the Apostles example you would seeke for glory at mens handes or els like the princes of the Iewes 6 Iohn 12. esteeme more the praise of men then the glory of God and to come neerer you that you would abandon the defence of your Syon yea and of your holy citie Hierusalem and would suffer your hedge to go downe and your Church to lye waste and plainely would renounce a great part of the Gospell and of your new faith and all this to talke 7 The argument of M. Cartwrights booke of the vse of money and purchases of land and Hackets and Copingers matters and your owne fancifull opinions and vaine praises Yea and all that haue heard of your fame expected farre other matters then this short pamphlet like two ballades stitched together at your handes and not only expected but also desired and wished that if needes you would take penne in hand you would trauaile in your former cause rather then in this priuate quarrell betwixt your selfe and me and that also was my earnest desire not that I would haue that fire stirred which once you had kindled and is now either quenched or well couered but that I hoped that by your defence all men should clearely see first the nakednesse and weakenesse of your cause which with no eloquent gloses you could couer nor with pretence defend and next that the same is not ouerborne by authoritie as some beare men in hand but reiected repelled and despised as a new forged deuise repugnant to al antiquitie to all iustice to al reason and trueth As for this your apologie or briefe answere as you call it it satisfieth no mans expectation or desire as I thinke if you respect the principall cause it is altogether impertinent if you seeke to iustifie and cleare your selfe you haue done iust nothing that is apparent by these particulers You deny that you did execute any part of your brother Stubbes his last will an vnkinde part you must needes confesse especially if he requested you or meant to put you in trust but what is that to the matter that you haue dealt in the execution of my Lord of Leycesters will concerning the stocke of his Hospital you cannot deny Likewise most apparent it is that you haue dealt how wel I know not in diuers other ciuil causes which is sufficient to make that cause good for which I alledged that argument You say also that you haue not three or foure mannours and percase you are sorie for it but what apperteineth that to your eldership I trust you meane not if you had them to conuey them ouer to some friends in trust for maintenance of a learned ministery for want of which your consorts pretend to bee so much offended Neither is the want of land or fee any blemish to your credit for many very honest and learned men haue not so much as one quarter of your reuenues you tell vs that you leant not 300. li. to Francis Michel but only 200. pound and yet neither is greatly material whether it be rather then you would loose either 200. or one hundred pounds you would percase wish you had neuer spoken worde for your consistorie you take it in euill part that I should cal the Hospital whereof you are master your Hospitall and yet is the speach common and no harme meant not is it any aduantage to your cause whether it be called my Lord of Leycesters Hospital or your hospitall if so be you might haue had your foolish course many learned men would not haue bene so wel mainteined as the poore of your Hospital Such like be your complaints where you take your selfe charged to be a man that hath strange conceites concerning extemporall prayers and working of miracles neither of these matters apperteine to your consistorial gouernment nor greatly touch you in reputation Your acquaintance with Copingers causes and allowance of Martins libels I confesse are foule matters and touch you in your reputation yet doe they concerne the consistoriall cause but litle Besides this albeit your principall drift in this your apologie was to cleare your selfe of all notes of disloyaltie and lewd opinions and lewd practises yet haue you done none of these nay in those matters that concerne Stubbs his will the purchase of lands and lending of money wherin you seeme to haue most aduantage you do but trifle
all this now I wil briefly note but the proofes you shall see largely deduced in the discourse ensuing First where I doe make diuers questions and some that touch you very nerely you passe the most of them ouer with silence but if you would haue iustified your selfe you should haue answered them al and that in direct and plaine termes I 1 Answere to the petit p. 186. aske you whether Fenners booke which he entitleth sacram Theologiam and which you seeme to allow conteine not strange diuinitie and gladly would I know if you mislike any thing in that booke what the points are you mislike you answere nothing I 2 Ibid. p. 189. demaund of you whether Barowes erroneous conclusions doe not folow of your assertions And what say you to it forsooth nothing I aske if the Prince refuse to reforme the Church how far inferior magistrates and the people may proceed therein and thereto your answere is 1 Ibid p. 194. 195. silence I demaund of you if you and your consorts do not thinke the practises of Geneua and Scotland for the setting vp of their discipline lawfull and worthy to be folowed and to this you say 2 Ibidem p. 195. nothing I demaund further whether you and your fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles and there decreed and enacted certeine Ecclesiastical canons and rules subscribed and practsed them contrary to her Maiesties lawes and the statutes of the Realme and you also answer as to other matters I desired to be resolued whether you had disgraced her Maiesties Ecclesiastical lawes reformation gouernment you respect my desires nothing Diuers other matters likewise I demaunded of you vnto which you answere nothing nay in the matters concerning Hackets practise and Martines libels and her Maiesties supremacie you answere imperfectly and vnsufficiently you dare not set downe my whole question nor confesse al was done concerning Copinger and Martin nor wil you answere directly to those particuler points of her Maiesties supremacie which the statutes and lawes giue her and doe you thinke that this kinde of answering is sufficient to cleare you Why then let Sanders Allen and those Papists and traitors which confesse so much in termes as plainely and openly as you do as yet be cleared concerning Stubbs his wil and your dealing with Francis Michel and others you haue also peruerted my meaning and altered my words and maner of writing who then seeth not how litle meanes you had to cleare your selfe being put to these hard shifts and not daring to set downe his words whom you pretend to answere but this we shall see more euidently when wee come to the examination of the particulers of your briefe Further your answer is altogether vnsufficient you do still cry out in your tragicall maner slander slander and yet you doe not vnderstand what is slander you ought therefore to vnderstand that slander is 1 L. 1. ff ad S. C. Turpil when matters criminal are purposely and falsly obiected but those things of which you go about to purge your selfe are either not criminal or els most true in part by your selfe confessed your selfe confesse that some things obiected to you are in their owne nature indifferent how then are they slanderous that you were acquainted with Hackets and Copingers practises and disliked not Martines courses shal be proued that you would not at the first answere to certaine points concerning the Queenes supreme authoritie in causes ecclesiastical you 2 In this booke and in the question concerning that matter confesse how then can you say you are slandered because forsooth as you would insinuate you did afterwards acknowledge it now offer to sweare it and yet you wil be taken halting when you come to the particuler points of that authoritie You deny that you allowed M. Fenners strange diuinitie concerning ouerruling and deposing of Princes by inferior magistrates yet haue not I said more then your own words wil proue and iustifie That which I say cōcerning working of Miracles and extemporal prayers you wittingly as it seemeth mistake and answere not which argueth that your conscience tolde you that I said nothing therein but trueth trueth whereof you are ashamed the execution of wills and purchase of lands is not criminall beside that what I said either concerning such matters or els your maner of employment of your money in effect and substance shal be proued sufficiently what reason then had you so vnaduisedly to challenge me and so deeply to charge me with this hainous matter of slandering nay what meant you or howe durst you once talke of slanders hauing your selfe slandered the ecclesiasticall policie of the Church as vniust the reformation thereof as prophane and impure the authoritie of Bishops practised in this Church as antichristian and contrary to Gods worde the clergie of England as destitute of an ordinary and lawful calling you hauing no other order then Deacon that I know the people of this land 1 Cartwr table as refusing Christ to reigne ouer them the preaching of the word as not orderly the administration of the Sacraments in this Church as not pure nor sincere neither haue you so good reason to charge me as I haue to charge you with slandering me hauing without cause imputed this vnto mee and charged me with shifting and I know not what vnchristian dealing and hauing put foorth and excited your friend to raile on me and charge me with diuers odious matters in the preface to your booke matters which I do the lesse regard for that as hee hath rashly charged me so he hath wickedly blasphemed God saying that God hath blasted my penne with a lying spirit attributing therein the wicked act of lying to God himselfe which is the Spirit of trueth and not only to me which cōfesse my selfe to be subiect to many errors of this M. Cartwright me thinks you should haue had more care and vsed therein more diligence and not suffered such blasphemies to passe in the forefront of your booke But may you say if you haue not slandered me yet you haue wronged me as if it were wrong to deale against the troubler of our peace the chiefe authour of your schisme the disturber slanderer of this Church and state and yet haue I done nothing otherwise then beseemed mee In my first bookes I dealt with you no further then the cause constreined me your importunitie that first began to oppugne the Church prouoked me In my answere to a certaine petition in the behalfe of your selfe and your side I do confesse I dealt with you more particulerly but I was drawen to it by the authors odious questions and courses When the petitioner said Quaere of Matth. Sutcliffe who is euer carping at M. Cartwrights purchases why he may not sel his fathers lands and buy others with the money how could I satisfie the man vnlesse I touched you particulerly blame therefore him that began
the braule if you finde your selfe therewith agreeued and not mee that did nothing but defend my selfe and answere What should I speake of the harshnesse and roughnesse of your stile your booke it selfe albeit I say nothing will herein say sufficient against so megre and wretched a discourse what neede I say any thing Yet partly least you should enter into presumption as if you had triumphed ouer me and sufficiently iustified your selfe and partly also to represse that hautines of spirit that possesseth you and maketh you so impatient of due reproofe and partly to cure your followers of that mad humor that maketh them suppose you to be a man without blame and error I haue vndertaken to examine to looke into this treatise of yours more particulerly although otherwise most vnworthy to be refuted or looked vpon and the rather for that your friend that hath made the preface before your booke doeth make such great brags of this defence and standeth so confidently vpon your innocencie and would haue all my writings esteemed and iudged according to this rule I haue also added such questions as you omitted praying your answer for my satisfaction if you mislike this course blame your selfe that drew me forth to iustifie my doings and would not giue mee any rest by your importunitie but if you doe still like it and will further proceede to charge mee with slandering you then for your owne credite if not at my request set downe my wordes truely and wholy and forbeare to forge and deuise matters calumniously I haue shewed you both in this booke and in my answere to M. Throkmorton a precedent deale not worse with mee then I haue done with you but percase all this request is needlesse for I trust his example who now is silent as it seemeth for ought he dare auowe wil teach you not to stirre coles well couered too rashly nor to prate of needlesse matters foolishly nor to runne wilfully into danger when no man driueth you This my answere albeit you looke not for it I dedicate to your owne selfe and not without iust cause challenges they say require answer and 1 Iueunda rerum verissitudo one good turne requireth another all men that haue good minds yeld 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like for like and pay home 3 Quod a se allatum est id sibi relatum puter Terent. in prol phorm as much as they haue receiued yea gratefull mindes 4 Vberiore mensura quam acceperis Cicer. ex Hesiod pay all with ouerflowing measure I doe not looke for any thankes at your hands I know it is an vngratefull world yet if you will patronize this booke and vouchsafe to stay the vnbridled tongues of your disciples that in their Bacchanall banquettes and disciplinarian feastes degorge their malice and speake their pleasures of whom they list I wil accept it at your hands as a fauour and put it into the reckening of your good doings More I haue to say vnto you but the rest you shall receiue in my answere to your challenge praying you to thinke nothing ouermuch nor lightly to condemne any thing before you haue talked with your friend Master Throkmorton to whom I doubt not but you will discommend me and therefore I desire not to be commended to him and so committing and commending you both to your sober thoughts I bid you a dieu MATTHEVV SVTCLIFFE ¶ To the Reader IT may be gentle Reader that either thou mayest thinke mee contentious that haue entred into this quarrell with M. Cartwright being a matter very friuolous no way to any good purpose or els very idle and at great laisure that haue nothing els to busie my selfe withall vnlesse I doe dispute and talke of Hackets Penries matters and M. Cartwrights landes and liuings and also of his domesticall and inward affaires and his priuate conceits and opinions But yet if thou wilt be pleased to consider either the great credite and fame which M. Cartwright hath amōg his followers that admire all his vanities or els the importunitie of him that made the preface to his booke that would haue all my writings measured by this false and deceiuable line of M. Cartwrights apologeticall challenge by the which hee supposeth him to bee cleared and mee to be quite disgraced and therefore seeketh to discredite all that I haue written in the common cause by the supposed vntruethes and slanders vttered against him of which he taketh me as conuicted I trust thou wilt pardon mee although I doe examine euen these fond toyes and fancies not worth a straw and grant that it is to some good purpose if I doe cleare my selfe of those fonde and ridiculous imputations which hee would so willingly and yet doeth so vnhandsomely fasten vpon me I was not ignorant that wise men doe well perceiue this to bee an vncertaine and deceitfull rule considering that such as write best are not voyde of errours and very learned men doe often slip yet such is the iustice and clearenesse of my cause in this controuersie betwixt M. Cartwright and me that I would not feare for once to allowe this rule and to make the most simple iudge of my dealings herein the which helpe seeing my cause doth afford me I thought it not conuenient to leaue to such clamorous aduersaries any pretense of aduantage I am therefore to pray thee not to accompt mee for this cause either contentious and quarrelsome or els vnwilling to accept of conditions of peace but rather to pitie mee whom such contentious fellowes with their vaine iangling and clamarous complayning will not suffer to rest I did neuer challenge any as yet but still wrote against those that had first entred into voluntary quarrels against this Church and state such was my discourse against Bellarmine and the Papists such also were those two bookes which I wrote against the whole fraternitie of the disciplinarians and their extrauagant fancies neither had I to doe either with the authour of the petition or with M. Iob Throk before they did challenge me seeing then this my answere to M. Cartwright is of the same nature why should the same bee more blamed then my other doings As for my leisure I assure thee it was neuer lesse for yet there are not many dayes passed since the Fleete returned wherein I was with others in her Maiesties seruice in the iourney of Guadix and to set my things in order and to refresh my selfe of my former trauailes some time is required as for idlenesse I doe detest it and M. Cartwright and his friendes I thinke will thereof discharge me yet if his peremptory dealing and his proloquutors insolencie would haue suffered mee to rest I could nowe haue bene content to put ouer M. Cartwrights briefe vntill the next returne but being prouoked by both either to yeelde my selfe to haue done notorious wrong or els to make answere although my other busines was great and my ease none
at all yet haue I thought good to sende them both away with a quicke dispatch to rake vp some new accusation or rather calumniation against me at some other time This certes is the cause that specially mooued me to looke into this newe matter although both for the basenesse of the subiect and vnsufficiencie of the handling of the cause most vnworthy to bee answered read or regarded for I pray what doeth it concerne but M. Cartwrights priuate causes with which were I not drawne to it I am most vnwilling to meddle yea and in this cause of his owne how doeth he be haue himselfe doeth hee not forbeare to answere the greatest and most of those questions which are demaunded of him the examination of particulers and the reading of this treatise will declare it To come to the argument of this pamphlet let vs see how he handleth it he saith and in great wordes giueth out that I haue slaundred him and that forsooth in two diuers pointes whereof the first as hee saith concerneth common maners the second toucheth his owne estate but when hee descendeth from the toppe of his high stile to talke of particulers either hee doeth not rightly alledge my wordes and so faileth in his ground or els frankly confesseth as much as I say or els the matters wherewith he taketh himselfe to be charged are not criminall but suppose I had spoken somewhat that might offend him yet I trust his estate is not so high but that it may be touched I doe not thinke hee desireth any royallestate as some haue done neither any priuiledged place such as licencious persons seeke for mine owne part I must needes say that I haue not read a more fond and friuolous dispute Like to M. Cartwrights booke is that preface which beareth a great roume in this small treatise like lippes like lettise both vaine both deuoyde of wit and learning yet of the two the preface is more fond aduancing M. Cartwright to the state of innocencie and more odious being fraught with diuers rayling reproches the authour seemeth to Master Iob Throkmorton an olde friend of mine who by commending of M. Cartwright sought to be reuenged on mee And what he could not winne by commending him that he seeketh by rayling and 1 Inter hypocritas faceros sanniones faceti trendentes contra me dentibus suis Psalm 35. gnashing his teeth vpon me such mery malicious fellowes well doeth the Prophete describe in his 35. Psalme and such dealing is not strange in that gentleman to whom I wish no other paine then that for his scorning and rayling for which his owne friendes call him gibing Iob he doe not in the ende weepe full bitterly I had thought the euill speede and successe hee had in his last letter would haue admonished him to surcease writing either of letters or prefaces But he is of the number of those whom no harme will make wise and percase is content especially for M. Cartwrights sake to suffer some fewe gentle blowes in deduction of those paines which otherwise he hath deserued Against both the preface and M. Cartwrights briefe challenge I haue published this briefe answere by which I trust by Gods grace to defend my rightfull cause thou thereby shalt reape this profite thou shalt see that these men so they could reteine their old credit could be content to see the cause of their discipline deserted yea and M. Cartwright and M. Throkmorton will I trust make so good vse of it as to learne to master their affections and to tame their hauty minde and to rest when they are in the wrong and to forbeare to drawe men into quarrels that wisheth them all humilitie and meekenesse that should bee in men of their sort I woulde to God that these that so eagerly pursue mee for supposed matter against themselues would in the ende come home and make an amends for that publike slaunder and disgrace they haue offered to the state But what do I wish that which will not bee had such men as are settled in their wicked purposes and courses wil not lightly giue ouer that which once though vnaduisedly they haue begun I would therefore if their heades will not bee aduised yet wish their followers to take heed how they be abused by them and to looke for better ground then such froward leaders strange conceits This answere I pray thee read with patience and looke not for any great learning in it for it was deuised on the sudden and beside that it is framed vpon a base subiect and a light matter of fact and very needlesse if M. Carwright could so haue bene contented Is it possible to draw water out of flint or likely that wee shall gather grapes on thistles M. Cartwright doeth not boast of miracles as hee saith and I neuer professed that I could worke them what fruite then is to bee expected out of this rockie soile Well such as it is I pray thee accept this discourse and I would it were better for thy sake The best is it shall not be long nor I hope tedious and therefore leauing all other preambles I come now to the examination of the booke it selfe But first a few wordes concerning the two diuers titles that this petit pamphlet hath in two seuer all places put before it ¶ 1 The answere to the two Titles The first title is this A briefe Apologie of Thomas Cartwright against 2 Whatsoeuer therefore hee is charged with and is not here answered is no slander all such flanderous accusations as it pleaseth M. Sutcliffe in his seuerall pamphlets most 3 I doe him no wrong iniuriously to loade him with Vnder that title is written this posic A 4 Apply this to Iob Throk and you shall see it fitteth him well hauing bene silenced with shame ynough righteous man abhorreth lies but the vngodly shameth himselfe and is put to silence Prou. 13.5 ¶ The second title is set downe in these wordes A 5 Note that hee saith briefe and forgot answere that is in the written copy which sheweth that in deede this which M. Cartwr◠saith is no answer briefe of Thomas Cartwright to the printed slaunders of M. doctour Sutcliffe deane of Exeter so farre as they concerne the same Thomas Cartwright ¶ The Answere ALthough titles of bookes be according to the authors fancies for the most part and therefore not much to bee regarded yet forasmuch as there is some matter in them worthy to bee marked I thought good to beginne with them The first thing that I obserue is the contrarietie and repugnance that is in the titles which argueth that the authors could not well tell what to make of this treatise The second is the notorious falsehood conteined in the titles which declareth their bad dealing The last is a plaine confession of the aduersary against himselfe for if all slanderous accusations be answered then whatsoeuer M. Cartwright is charged with and not answered in
lost their Ecclesiasticall preferments of which hee then doubted not so friendly was he to vs he saith that hee is not bound to answere a plaine and euident proofe that in his conceit he had cast vs all out of our liuings Being demaunded Ibidem interrog 29. whether in a certeine assembly in the county of Cambridge he being present it was not concluded that Homilies and the Apocryphall scriptures were not to be read in the Church that the calling of Bishops was vnlawfull and that notwithstanding any sentence of depriuation giuen by them the ministers of the disciplinarian faction were to continue their ministery and the discipline to be taught and to bee practised by those that were well instructed he denieth that he is bound to answere whereby it appeareth how presumptuous hee was in going about to dissolue her Maiesties Ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernment TO conclude this point compare I beseech you this answer and apologie of M. Cartwrights with my questions and the interrogatories whereupon he was examined in the Starre-chamber throughout and you shall find that he passed by most of my questions in silence not once daring to touch them or to looke vpon them and that hee was no way able to cleare himselfe of those matters that were obiected against him in the Starre-chamber and I thinke he will not sure I am he cannot deny so much to be true if he doe let him take what time hee will and directly and particulerly answere these questions and interrogatories in his next apologie but I know he neither meaneth so to doe nor can well do it I do therefore conclude first that if as he saith and disputeth in his whole answere all questions be charges or as the title hath accusations then is hee accused and charged with diuers enormous matters Secondly if he hath answered all slanderous accusations in this his apologie then that all these things which are not answered are truely obiected and are no slanders Which being granted it will followe that his friend had small skill that painted him out in the proper lineaments as he saith of innocencie and if he say that this is nothing but a cauill then let him the next time answere all these matters directly and sufficiently and I my selfe will giue him not onely the robe of innocencie which his friend bestoweth on him but also wil crowne him with a garland of glorie and place him in the triumphant charet of victory to his perpetuall honour among all his folowers that like of his disciplinarian forgeries Those wordes also out of the Prouerbes which are set vnder the first title are a most euident testimonie against the author of the Preface who likewise seemeth to haue fitted to himselfe this sentence for if righteous men abhorre lyes why hath he tolde his Lady so many vaine tales and fables forsoth because hee is an vngodly felow and therefore that is come to passe that foloweth in the sentence the vngodly shameth himselfe and is put to silence for M. Iob Throkmorton in his rude and euil shapen letter hath shamed himselfe and as a man that is at the ende of his role hauing reeiued his answere is put to silence Let M. Cartwright take heed that his happe be not like his felowes and that for expected glory he receiue not shame and stoppe when hee hath runne his course in a suddein silence This sentence therefore albeit the same neither agree with the Hebrew text nor with the olde Latine translation nor with the Geneuian translation in English yet shall passe for once without correction In the second title M. Cartwright calleth me doctor I trust he doeth it not in scorne for the time was when himselfe desired both the degree and title of doctour and yet could not haue it percase hee was put backe for his innocencie sure somewhat it was that made the Vniuersitie deny that to him that it vseth to deny but to very few and for iust causes Beside that hee would haue doctors to be chiefe men in the new commonwealth of his consistory and great pillers of the disciplinarian state He doth also call mee deane of Exeter giuing mee an office which himselfe hath condemned as antichristian but his sentence is declared erroneous and foolish For what reason hath a master of an Hospitall to condemne a deane the time was I thanke him when hee seemed very carefull how deanes and others which hee had determined by his magistrale authoritie should loose their liuings should be mainteined but now hee is acquited of that care and turned along to looke to his domesticall affaires May it therefore please him to let deanes alone and looke to his owne reckenings if not hee shall well vnderstand that deanes are in honestie and otherwise aboue such as hee is though hee were master of more then one Hospitall and that himselfe is no such man but that we may talke of him without incurring scandalum magnatum This answere hee calleth a briefe and what briefe forsooth a briefe to printed slanders as if there were any relation betwixt briefes and slanders or els as if slanders were properly said to be printed Sure if M. Cartwright were so wise as he is taken to be hee would neuer haue printed these slanders himselfe nor published this simple weake discourse nor without cause or good purpose brought his name into question But seeing he would needes haue it so who can be against it should the consistoriall elders proclaime a fast and desire God to turne his minde Nay seeing he will make himselfe the subiect of this dispute and call me forth to contend with him let vs begin and see what either his friend in his preface or himselfe in his briefe returnable 10. dayes before this terme can say for their defence and least either might complaine of wrong they shall both speake in their owne natural language List therefore I pray you for here comes in the prologue a goodly graue fellow ye neede not doubt ¶ The preface set before M. Cartwrights booke and the answere to it IF thou be desirous good Reader to 1 Will you see the counterfeite of a dizard see the right portraiture of 2 He meaneth folly for innocencie dwelleth not here about innocencie truely set foorth vnto thee in her 3 A very proper piece of worke proper lineaments then read this discourse which is not 4 Not lōg nor wise nor learned long ¶ The Answere STrange it were I confesse and worth the seeing if a man might see the right portrait of innocencie and that truely set foorth in her proper colours and lineaments as this preface promiseth but alas where is she and how shal we come to haue a sight of her howe shall we knowe her and discerne these proper lineaments that he speaketh of The prefator like a monte banke he pointeth to this discourse which hee imagineth to be a rare peece of workmanship painted out by M. Cartwright as it
Cartwrights owne wordes and confession for if hee had thought him vnworthy to be talked with he would not so often haue heard of him nor sent him ouer to be conferred with all by others Lastly that Copinger was neither frantike nor so accounted of appeareth by his well written letters by his questions by his sober behauior by his cunning practises and lastly by the opinion of 1 He calleth Edm. Copinger his deare brother Iob Throk and P.W. that wrote to him as a man of some note among that sect neither seemeth hee to haue other folly then the common folly of puritans who being otherwise not vnwise yet hold frantike foolish opinions Thirdly he saieth that if he had bene guiltie and not detected of these matters that either the commissioners in that cause had not vsed diligence or faithfull dealing therein which is a very dishonourable surmise against men of such honour and no way concludeth for M. Cartwr purpose for we may not thinke but that they saw both Wiggingtons and M. Cartwrights and others dealing and were notwithstanding content with the punishment of the chiefe heads of that conspiracie Besides that time that bringeth matters to knowledge hath declared things that then lay hid and Iob Throkmorton and M. Cartwright themselues haue told tales His last argument to prooue his innocencie is this that Arthington cannot accuse him of these matters which is rather a ridiculous conceit then a sound argument for those that manage any such wicked plot do not make all their partakers acquainted with all their secrets Neither doeth he auoyd such matters as may bee alleaged to iustifie so much as I sayd against him nay he doeth not onely mistake my obiection but the reasons also He saieth that the first reason of my accusations was drawen from his conference yet I doe not accuse M. Cartwr nor doe I obiect that which he pretendeth nor doe I reason as he saieth yet if to prooue that M. Cartwr had intelligence of Copingers matters I sayd there did letters and messages passe betwixt them it is no bad reason nor is it answered Neither doe I say because they salted together that M. Cart. was guiltie of Copingers practises yet if they fasted and prayed together that God would giue good successe to the matters then intended it is not likely but M. Cartwright vnderstood what was intended for who doeth pray for such things as hee knoweth not Thirdly I should reason ridiculously to say that euery one whom the traitors named and praysed were priuie to their treasons I would therefore wish that M. Cartwr would shew where I do thus reason as he doeth charge me yet if I should say that M. Cart. did so demeane and cary himself hat these traitors supposed they had great interest in him and therefore praysed him so highly I thinke I should not say amisse Further methinkes it is some fault to giue occasion as he hath done to the Baroists and these Hacketians thus furiously to oppugne the church Therefore doeth S. Augustine 1 De eiuit Dei lib. 20. 21. say that the last iudgement is deferred that heretikes and schismatikes that hurt after their death by their actions writings and examples may receiue punishment according to their demerites But saieth M. Cartwr their prayse was excessiue and I am not woorthy to beare the bookes after many that liue in this age yea and in this church of our land A goodly matter and woorthie to be noted as if any did either charge him or suppose him to be so admirably well learned or as if that were the question here and not rather what mad conceit these mad fellowes had of him Hee saieth therefore further that they commended him as he was first and not as he was now A matter that I neuer heard before this nor can beleeue for Copinger did still speake of him with reuerence and all that euer heard the wordes as farre as I can learne say as I haue reported But whether it bee so or no sufficient it is that these traitors had such a great conceit of his writings which he doeth auowe and many doe very well like and these traitors commended as setting foorth the groundes of those things for which they did striue and in tumultuous sort seeke to winne them My report therefore is very right and M. Cartwright by his fauour is fowly either mistaken or in his owne ginnes taken Lastly sayth he M. Sutcliffe concludeth that I was a medler in these matters vpon aduantage of certeine words of a letter of one Iohn Bowman of Oundle true but neither doth this conclusion amount so farre as M. Cartwright would force it for I doe not there conclude that he consented to Copinger as he doth affirme nor can he deny but that my reason is good to shew him to be a busie medler in these causes therefore doth he answere first that he neuer wrote to M. Wiggington in his life to his remembrance as if many things of his come not from him by his seruants and frends which he neuer wrote and as if it were not his practise to deale all by third persons as appeareth in this matter of his with Copinger Hee answerreth therefore further that it might be some writing of the Court matters in the Starchamber as if M. Cartwright or any els were so simple that he could not distinguish the Court from the Starre chamber Now that this writing should come to Wiggintons hands and at such time as Hacket was with him it is a plaine presumption that M. Cartwright had some interest in Wigginton and Hacket and these two in him vnlesse he would haue vs surmise that all happened by chance without any purpose of his and that the Court matters Bowman speaketh of were rather concerning the ciuill state then their disciplinarian causes Wherefore if we consider Copingers letters to M. Cartwright that doe plainely argue the approbation of his purpose though percase not the particular meanes for feare of himselfe and also M. Cartwrights answere of extraordinary callings not ceased now especially in the ruines of the Church which Copinger tooke as granted and the messages sent to and fro by M. Hockenhull 1 Confessed by M. Cartwright betwixt M. Carwright and Copinger and how that M. Cartwrights 2 Proued by their letters Copingers examinatiō frendes viz. M. P.W. M. Egerton M. Vdall M. Charke and a certeine lawyer who in these causes kept nothing backe from him knew of the dangerous course that Copinger had entred into and how that M. Cartwright had 3 That Cartwr confesseth M. Egerton did the like put him ouer to be conferred withal by others of his frends and how he himselfe had 4 That doth Copinger affirme once appointed him a time to confer with him which for feare of danger he durst not holde and how 5 M. Throk letters to a lady M. Throk acquainted him with all matters that had passed
haue the consent of many worthy churches and godly learned both of this and 13 Speake not this for shame for before Caluins time your fancies were neuer heard of other ages I would be ashamed for that singular mercy God had shewed mee by her Maiesties most gratious gouernment to come 14 Yet I haue beene in many places in her Maiesties seruice where I could not see you behind M. Sutcliffe in any duty that my poore hand is able to reach vnto 15 What is this to Fenners cause And that hee 16 If I dare you it is because I knowe you cannot dareth me not once but sundry times to answere touching these matters of discipline I thinke it not so 17 Why did you then first begin this braule fit for mee to vndertake it there being so many better able thereunto then I especially in this declining and forgetfull age of mine and yet if my answere might haue either that 18 At Geneua you may haue both allowance of print or passage that his hath and none other were found I my selfe in this weakenesse I am in would not be behinde with answere to any thing that he hath bene able to alledge in this behalfe 19 A ridiculous surmise if there be any thing in his writings the answere where of is not already set downe by such as haue written in that cause and that my silence in the cause of discipline is not altogether of the 20 I do thinke M. Cartwright able to do and write well but not in this cause inabilitie or feare M. D. Sutcliffe would so willingly fasten or rather force vpon mee let this be for an 21 An argument most weake for it is more easie to refute the Rhemâ—sts false annotations then to establish newe found conceits argument that where I was set 22 That should be done by the learned fathers of the church on worke by the right honourable Sir Francis Walsingham for the answere of the annotations of the Iesuites vpon the New testament had trauailed therein to a rude and first draught of a great part thereof vnderstanding from some in authority that I might not deale with it I did not onely not set any thing out my selfe but also 23 Good for you and for the cause earnestly laboured by letters and frends here and in Scotland both the hinderance of the printing some parts thereof which being brought to Sir Francis afterward much against my will came into the hands of diuers to whom I would 24 Such is the pride of these men they will not suffer their doings to be corrected neuer haue let them come In the margine oueragainst these words hinderance of the printing is this note placed And 25 This note serueth to vnderproppe the former weake argument but to no good effect for the vnsufficiency of this might deter him from attempting the other labour if he stayed the publishing of that whereunto he was once allowed by authority it is not in all likelyhood to be thought that he would hastily publish any thing of himselfe howsoeuer he might be persuaded of the trueth of it Matth. Sutcliffe In this answer there are two principall questions that should haue bene resolued by M. Cartwright if he meant to conclude ought against me the first is whether he did highly commend M. Fenners booke or no wherein this strange position mentioned in the title of his answere is conteined the second whether granting so much as I charged him withall he was herein slandered as in euery of his seuerall accusations he pretendeth of these two questions M. Cartwright resolueth nether with what face then can hee say that he is slandered not being able to deny any thing which I say nor to iustifie his wrong imputation of slaunder did hee thinke that I should neuer returne to looke into these matters if he did what hope hath he to make them good Beside this wrong where I say that Fenner giueth authoritie to inferior persons as indeed he doth he cunningly foisteth in superior persons as if either he meant to 1 If he say that a prince may be ouerruled by inferiors he denieth the princes souereignty if in such common wealths where the magistrates haue indeed superiors he deny their authority he speaketh as a man ignorant of antiquitie and state denie the princes supremacie or their authoritie if any such may be that haue authoritie ouer the prince or king as the Romanes had ouer kings that were their vassals and tributaries of which wee talke not nor make any question such goodly discourses maketh M. Cartwright all muffled about the eyes with the maske of innocency so that he could see nothing vnlesse it were to misalledge my words and to answere nothing to purpose yet least his clients and followers might thinke he had sayd great matters let vs examine euen this nothing He sayth that M. Fenner giueth no such authority as is sayd but where the lawes of the land doe establish such an authoritie as the Ephori in Lacedaemonia had A matter as I shewed that made not to purpose and which is also very false for M. Fenner as M. Cartwright should not be ignorant speaketh of lawes drawn out of the word of God to which all princes ought to submit their scepters further he speaketh generally he therefore that taketh it otherwise doth both mistake and misconstrue Driuen from this ground hee flieth to the second and sayth that hee is not of M. Fenners iudgement which sitteth him not well to say vnlesse he will contradict himselfe in his epistle for the matters conteined in M. Fenners booke hee calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 leges iuracoelestis Canaan Now I trow he wil not deny Gods lawes or as he calleth them the lawes of heauenly Canaan beside this he reuiewed the book and corrected it as appeareth by these words Cupiebam saith 2 The words of M. Cartwrights epistle before M. Fenners booke M. Cartwright libelluÌ„ hunc quem sanè praeclarum abs te accepi nec indignum vt ei legendo vadimonium quod dicitur deseratur pro voto postulato tuo meliorem cultiorem ad te remittere ad quam rem quid attulerim tu apud te statues hauing then corrected what he thought amisse will not M. Cartwright defend the rest especially hauing made all so neat and fine thirdly as those that 3 l. lex cornelia ff de iniuriis §. si quis librum publish and commend or write or make books conteining slandrous matter are to answere for whatsoeuer is therein conteined so they that publish and commend books conteining hereticall and trecherous and leud opinions are to answere for them much rather in what case then is M. Cartwr that by his excessiue commendations hath giuen vent to this booke which no wise man I thinke will valew is not he periured that denieth that doctrine on his oth which is conteined in the
the giftes hee had so diligent was his wife to rake in rewards that many braue men of good desert that serue her maiestie in her warres would bee content the shame onely except to exchange the commodity of their places with him but if these men haue not what they would or if their pillowes lie not right they thinke all men doe them wrong that doe not pitie them yea albeit they murmure at their iudges yet would they haue no man to open their mouth against them Lastly he entreth into comparison with me and saieth bee would be ashamed to come behind me in any duetie wherein it had bene good if he had hired M. Throk or some of his friends to speake for him This domesticall testimonie of himselfe sauoureth strongly of folly and arrogancie is litle to be respected yea albeit his deserts were greater yet is the comparison odious and loth I am to follow M. Cartwright in this vanitie yet thus much I may say for my selfe that I neuer was imprisoned for any vndutifull and disloyall opinions and misdemeanors as he hath bene neither did I euer hide my head in corners as hee hath done nor did I euer so neerely touch her maiesties royall prerogatiue her reuenues and her lawes as M. Cartwright did nor euer haue I written bookes in defence of a new gouernment of the church nor maintained the same directly against lawes as he hath done and doeth Againe I thinke M. Cartwright was neuer employed in her maiesties seruice as I haue bene now this fourth time yea while I was in her seruice in the iorney of Guadix hee emploied all his time and labour in setting foorth and printing this most simple briefe ô what brags would he make if euer he had done her maiestie seruice that is not now ashamed to brag of his duetifull behauiour towards her maiestie whose whole time hath bene emploied in oppugning that ecclesiasticall gouernment which by her authoritie is established so litle doeth he shame to looke into the crooked course of his whole life and studie For answere therefore to this obiection M. Cartwright doth insinuate that all other matters being equall he is behind me onely in his iudgement in matters of discipline which is vntrue for notwithstanding that iudgement he might haue done her maiestie seruice if he had would as I haue done Beside that this onely dealing of his about his fancifull discipline is matter sufficient to conuict him of notorious misdemeanors and vndutiful cariage of himselfe as hath bene declared neither is his defence of any moment where he saieth that many are of his opinion for in euery lewd practise there are lightly many consorts and heretikes and schismatikes want no folowers Beside that it is vntrue that many worthy churches and godly learned of this and other ages are of his opinion for before Caluins time his discipline was neuer heard of and albeit now some churches doe embrace his opinions herein yet doe they not consent with M. Cartwright in many points nor I thinke did they allow any negotiation and practise for the establishing of his new discipline in this land by forging railing libelling and disloiall dealing Would therfore M. Cartwr doe me this fauour in two other sheetes of paper to shew that godly learned men of other ages were of his opinion and that other churches allow his courses hee should cleare himselfe of the suspicion of a great and notorious vntrueth The rest of M. Cartwrights answere in this place is nothing but an idle digression nothing pertinent to the clearing of the obiection concerning his iudgement of Fenners booke and the authoritie by him giuen to certeine Ephori to ouerrule princes yet least hee should compleine hee were not answered I am to craue pardon if I examine this also He saith first that although I dare him not once but sundry times to answere touching these matters of discipline yet it is not so fit for him to vndertake it To this I answere first that albeit I should dare him yet it is no slander to his worship that I dare him it is rather shame for him that hee commeth not forth being dared Secondly he doth mee wrong to say I dare him for he dare do any thing yea things very absurd and vnlawfull But in deed I doe in diuers points challenge him to mainteine his bolde and rash assertions and that not to stirre contention but to shew that albeit he dare do it yet he can not mainteine his cause Thirdly I do mainteine that there is no man that hath more reason to answere in these causes then hee and that first for that he in this Church first of all in large books defended these opinions Now why should any bee thought more fit to speake then hee that first made challenge and entred the liftes in defence of this cause Secondly there is none whom that side doth more desire should answere then M. Cartwright Thirdly they imagine that none is more able Fourthly the cause of others is deserted Fiftly none promised or bragged so much as he Lastly of all men I would that M. Cartwright should specially answere that when it appeareth how the patriarch of discipline can say nothing his followers that are abused might soonest be mooued to change opinion And if neither his aduersaries prouocation nor his friends desire nor his owne reputation nor his cause deserted nor his owne great words and brags do moue him I see no excuse he can haue but the impossibilitie of defence and the vntrueth of matters heretofore defended by him He pretendeth age and forgetfulnesse but the first is not sufficient the second is absurd for he ought not to forget his duty nor what he is to say for himselfe Hee saith also that others are more able but I dare say he beleeueth it not and his friendes by no meanes will admit it Therefore when no iust excuse can be alledged of silence he proceedeth saying that if either his answere might haue allowance of print or passage himselfe in that weaknesse hee is in would not be behinde to answere any thing that I haue bene able to alledge in these matters as if hee might not as well print and passe his bookes at Geneua or Heidelberg as he did his first and second replies Beside that if the matters he standeth on be such as he saith then ought he to care for no allowance nor passage for if discipline bee a part of the Gospell and so constantly to be defended as that he ought to giue his life for it yea so many liues as he hath haires of his head these are no iust excuses why he should flie backe Further when hee printed his first bookes he desired neither passage nor allowance why then should hee nowe desire it more then then Is his heate of zeale cooled or is he growne wise nay he saith he is growne weake percase he hath taken some rheume or cold that hath disordred the records of his fancie which
is the proper seate of his discipline But this is no allowable excuse especially seeing he doubteth not but to answer whatsoeuer I haue bene able to alledge for so he saith Yet his friendes doe rather looke for performance For his bragges I say nothing but as the Poet saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let vs see your promises atchieued and then crow out your victory 1 In Theatet Plato saith it is a crauenly cocke that crieth so loud before the fight That M. Cartwright meaneth not to deale further in this matter I take this as a presumption for that hee doubteth whether there bee any thing in my writings which is not answered already by those that haue written in that cause for that is onely a cloake for his sluggishnesse and the weakenesse of his consistoriall discipline but such a cloake as beareth out neither wind raine nor Sunne I wonder that he should make such an exception and that not without some note of a hard forhead and conscience For he knoweth that the books I haue writen whereof one is in Latine the other in English are directly against their discipline which argument none to my knowledge euer handled seuerally and purposely either before mee or after mee Other bookes that haue bene written in this cause are rather for defence of the present gouernment then against their newe discipline How then can my bookes be saide to be answered in other treatises that are rather written to oppugne our gouernment then to defend theirs especially seeing in my bookes all these arguments are answered which here and there others haue written for the new discipline Somewhat I confesse hath bene written since but nothing to the purpose nor orderly nor schollerly As for M. Beza it pleaseth him to raile on me giue me euil language which God forgiue him and I forgiue forget but to the matter he answereth nothing Nay his discourse is such as rather we do pitie the man for his age and weakenes then value any thing he hath said and yet both M. D. Sarauia hath answered him and so haue I and haue the booke ready to be printed if any beginne but once to stirre in the cause Wherefore good M. Cartwright either let me haue publike or priuate answere to content mee or els leaue of your bragging promises if not whatsoeuer you say all your folowers will mislike you and your aduersaries take your silence for confession In the end of this answere of his he goeth about to prooue that his silence proceedeth not altogether from inabilitie or feare because hauing proceeded to a rude 1 His answere consisting of diuers pieces collected by diuers of the fraternity in Cambridge knowen to be of small sufficiency he hath no such cause to tell vs of his great labours taken learning shewed therein draught of an answere to a great part of the Iesuiticall annotations vpon the New testament of which hee maketh a great bragge yet being countermanded he did not publish them nor as he sayth in the margent vseth hastily to publish any thing howsoeuer he might be persuaded of the trueth of it but of all others this reason is most simple and least concludent for the case is farre different betwixt the publication of his answere to the Rhemish annotations which I know not why he calleth Iesuiticall or his answere being pieced together by diuers other and this expected defence of discipline for that was neuer expected at his hands nor promised nor could without others helpe be performed this was both much expected and in his first replies in effect promised and this he thought himselfe once able to performe beside that all his partakers desired his defence of the new discipline which they expected would be a worke very compleat and the rather they desired it because others abandoned the cause but his answere to the Rhemish annotations wrought out in the monasterie of S. Laurence for the most part very rudely beside his owne followers none expected some wise men thought meet should be stopped both for the discordance of the parts for that by his simple dealing in many points especially concerning discipline he betrayed our cause and did giue more aduantage to the aduersary then all his side would haue done good and lastly for that M. D. Fulke very sufficiently and learnedly before him had dealt in the cause neither doth any well aduised man thinke it expedient that he should deale in the publike cause vnlesse his writings might be publikly reuiewed before they were printed which his haughtie spirit could by no meanes endure the which appeareth by his wordes in this place for albeit some part of the preface to his booke was brought to those that had authority to peruse it yet he signifieth that if he could haue chosen it should neuer haue come to their hands it was not therefore his moderation that stayd the printing for he confesseth that some parts were already going to the presse but the insufficiency of his worke and the authors pride that would admit no correction and lastly for that D. Fulke of blessed memory a man more iudicious and learned then he had trauailed therein more sufficiently and perfectly before him and thus much by the way to take away his friuolous excuses of his silence in the cause of discipline in which first he was so fiery and furious Now let vs returne to his foresayd briefe of slanders M. Cartwrights answere being charged how that vpon the comming forth of Martin he is reported to haue said that it was no matter if the bishops were so handled seeing they would take no warning Let it be iudged sayth hee what 1 What guiltines of conscience is it that suffreth him not to deny it christian loue it is to commit such things to print vpon a 2 It is to be testified by witnesse bare report and if the reporters had bene named as in other cases where he doth call out the persons by their names the trueth might haue the better appeared for me I am able to produce witnesses that the first time that euer I heard of Martin Marprelate I testified my great misliking and griefe for so naughty and so disorderly a 3 You misliked the course but not at the first nor that BB. should be abused course as that was and therefore where fol. 51. p. 1. hee asketh when I will condemne the vnlawfull and vnciuill practise of Martin and Penry I aske againe what 4 You take on you the office of a doctour or pastour which is an office to do that very sufficient office or charge I haue to publish condemnation vpon euery vnlawfull and vnciuill 5 This touched your cause neerer then other writings writing that commeth abroad and yet I haue witnesses that euen publikly when I was allowed to preach I condemned all dealing 6 Note that he misliked not Martin but all dealing in that kinde because his side was