nothinge to beware in him selfe of y t foly let him marke these that folowe The chief Authoritie beinge acknowleged and confessed â—at fo 101. whether theÌ„ he were called by either of those names that you deny or no it is not of greate importance M. Hardinge seemeth in part willingly to yeeld Iew. 220 Againe It was as easy a matter for Christ to geue Peter the Power and Title bothe togeather as to geue him the power alone without the Title Here I can not chuse but answer some what though for desire of shortnesse I haue and must let many thinges passe which might be staied vpon Who doubteth but Christ in deede might haue geuen the Title which M. Iew. findeth lackinge togeather with the power and Authoritie ouer the Church yet for so much as he hath not done it it becometh not vs to find any imperfection in his doinges but to honor them with all Reuerence though we see no reason for them or with all humilitie to thinke vpon them whether good causes may be brought furth and alleged for them or no. And truly concerninge this matter of which we speake we may rightly iudge y t because weyght and worthinesse is in the Thinges them selues therfore he gaue the power to S. Peter As for Names and Titles because they are so easely geueu as appereth by styles of Noble men and Princes his maiestie was not ouer curiouse in them Yet he left not S. Peter without a name of honor also sayinge Thou shalt be called Cephas Io. 1. which is interpreted Petrus a rocke or Stone Which Title duly considered is of more weight and worthinesse than either the name of Head Rector Gouernor Prince Christ gaue S. Peter a Title of dignitie and power or vniuersal Bishope Which as they signifie a Preeminence aboue others so do they not warrant a Continuance a Stedfastnes a sure Ground to buyld vpon and a Principall and Chiefe Stone in the house of God as Cephas or Petros which are to say a Rocke doe for our Sauyour expressed it in the hearinge of the twelue and sayed to S. Peter only and specially Thou art Peter or a Rocke Mat. 16. and vpoÌ„ this rocke will I buyld my Church and the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it And to thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauens and what thinge soeuer thou byndest vpon Earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ what thinge soeuer thou loosest vpon Earth shal be loosed in Heauen Mary this Title of Vniuersall bishope or Head of the Church he gaue not him in plaine Termes But what of that He instituted effectuall Sacramentes yet he neuer called any of them by the name of Sacrament He taught men to beleue in the Trinitie yet the word is not found in all scripture The prophet Dauid calleth the Apostles Princes of all the Earth Psal 44. yet Christ which gaue them Authoritie ouer al sayeth no more but Goe and Preach the Gospell to al creatures Mar. 16. And againe I send you furth as sheepe emong wolues Mat. 10. Againe your master is one Christ and al ye are Brethern Mat. 23. and neuer called them Princes How then Doth M. Iew. find an imperfection in Christes doinges And thinketh he secretly in his hart that a Power is not well geuen without a Title And that if him selfe might haue ordered the matter To anger or troble the Catholikes M. Iewel makâ—th obiections against God himselfe the Name and Office should haue ben geuen both together from wheÌ„ce cometh this that a wretched and a vile creature hath to saye any thinge against his Maker The Catholike Church is coÌ„teÌ„ned The iudgement of y e highest Bishope in the earth is condeÌ„ned to hinder y â— Pope And aÌ„ger y â— Catholikes he is not afraied to dally with Almightie God him selfe And to aske of vs whether it was not an easy matter for him to geue Peter the Power and Title al together That when we shall confesse the Title was not geuen Either foolishe or blasphemous he may infer Ergo neither the Power Which argument If your selfe M. Iewel thinke to be naught what a wyse man are you so trimly to set it furth If it be good what a Miserable felow are you which dare so to speake of him that is Alwyse and Almightie As though it should not be agreable to geue a Power and not the Title Confesse that you haue ouershot your selfe in makinge so much of a weake reason Or looke to be Answeered accordingly when him selfe shal come in Iudgement for such purpose But let vs goe forward To this Church of Rome D. Har. Fo. 106. it is necessarie al that be faithfull to repaire and come togeather for the mightier Principalitie of the same Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Againe Andrew reâ—eiued not the Primacie but Peter Amb. 2. Cor. 12. Againe The Primacie or Principalitie of the Apostolike Chayre Aug. epi. 162. hath euermore bene in force in the Romaine Church Now marke what M. Iew. concludeth He answereth after his maner vnto euery one but he triumpheth not therein but in this sayinge M. Hardinge trippinge as he sayeth so nicely ouer the Doctors hath not yet once towched Iew. 254 Here begynneth the he and 〈◊〉 the thingethat was looked for and that he hath only and with such affiance take in hand For notwithstanding a great PoÌ„pe of wordes and the Names of manie holie Fathers yet hath he not hitherto shewed that the Bishope of Rome within the space oâ— six hundred yeares after Christ was euer called the Vniuersall bishope Or the head of the vniuersall Church VVhich thinge iâ— he could haue shewed I beleue he wold not so lightlie haue tripte it ouer See how ernest he is vpon the name of Vniuersall Bishop And how sore him selfe stumbleth at one simple word Tripping And how much he craketh before the end that the word he looketh for is not yet shewed But see in an other place D. Harding from the 108. leafe to the 119. of his boke proueth the necessitie of one head and authoritie of the Bishope of Rome By naturall reason By Appeales made to Rome By Excommunications directed from Rome By Elections of Bishopes confirmed by the Pope By his Approuinge or Disprouinge of Councels By restoringe of Bishopes wrongfulli coÌ„deÌ„ned to their Churches By Bishops and Patriarches reconciled vnto him And then goeinge forward in this matter Although it be a childish thinge saieth he to sticke at the name any thinge is called by yet I will bringe good witnesse for these names VNIVERSAL BISHOPE HEAD of the CHVRCH This I trow should cause M. Iew. to be more calme and quiet consideringe that he shall not tary longe but haue the very Names brought furth which he craueth so much for But he must make somewhat of nothinge aud seeme to be a Winner before his aduersarie ioyne with him And therfore he
saie Our lampes be without light And this may be saied either charitablie enough naming no persons and sorowing y e case either very discreetly against Heretikes which so obiect vnto vs the euil liues of Popes as though it were an Article of our faith that a Pope can neuer synne or our cause were vtterly destroied if so much were confessed or graunted which is so far otherwise that it proueth rather the prouidence mercie of God towardes his Church to be exceding sure greate in assisting the See of Rome in which euil men are constrained to tel Truthe y t y e hope of y e faithful might be stedfast in God August epi. 166. and not come goe at the good or euil life of any Pope These Examples I trust are sufficient and plaine enough of themselues not only to proue that M. Iewel hath very dissorderly behaued hymselfe in repeting of D. Hardings Argumentes but also to warne euery Indifferent Gentle reader of the Daunger which needes must folow if without further serche or Consideration of the mater he take that for a Trueth and Certaintie which M. Iewel once committeth vnto printing Note also that al these forsayed Argumentes which M. Iewel hath thrust out of their right waie to find fault with theÌ„ contynue yet stil in their true sense and meaning without any iust Replie or Answer to the contrarie And so must those pointes of the Controuersies betwene hym and vs remaine as wel proued on the Catholykes syde which are touched specially in these forsaied argumentes and Examples vnto which he hath geauen no direct or cleare Answer How M. Iewel disgraceth D. Har. Authorities CAP. V. IT foloweth now shortly to declare how M. Iewel Disgraceth and extenuateth the Authorities of D. Har. For emong Sophistes it is one of the kindes of Answering when they can not directly or sufficieÌ„tly put away the argument to deface then by A croked worde and a wrie mouth Or a Lippe as it were the whole mater Which the more vngracious it is the deeper it is printed in the myndes of to many And the viler it is the more it needeth to be discouered that ernest and sad Truthe may not be so easely outfaced Surely if in temporall maters where the thinges that men striue vpon are sensible this maner of dealing of which Examples shall folow out of M. Iewell be vsed the Stomakes doe so increase y â— it maketh men quickly to let goe Wordes and to come to blowes Yet God forbid that I should wisshe for any such Conclusion but this doe I meane only that if so greate offense be taken of a Temporall Iniurie much more it should greeue vs to see maters of Religion depraued And truely in Temporall causes men oftimes are to quicke but concerning the State of right faith and vnderstanding they neede not mistrust least they be to deuont and diligent Let the Examples declare whether I burden M. Iewel rightly or no. D. Har. after other causes which moued him not to discredite y â— Treatise of Amphilochius vpoÌ„ S. Basiles life miracles he sayeth at the last that this Treatise is to be seeÌ„ in the Librarie of S. Nasarius in the Citie of Verona in Italie Writen in Veleme for three huÌ„dred yeres past bearing the name of Amphilochius Bishope of Iconium 〈…〉 But A Calues skinne quod M. Iewel is no sufficient warrant of trueth In deede who can deny it Neither doth D. Harding Conclude that it is to be credited because it was writen in veleme but because it was writen so long agoe and kept to this day in a Librarie at Verona D. Harding putteth a case of foure or fyue Another Example which in time of siknesse should be desirous to Receiue And if neither the Preist be able neither other be willing to Communicate with them may not saieth he they Receiâ—e seuerally And doe not they Communicate together See now M. Iewells demeanure Alas saieth he must he leaue al the old Doctours and holy Fathers and begg at deathes dore to geat sumwhat to help his Masse Alas M. Iewel are you so vnsensible Iew. 31. Kynd hart that you thinke it to be a leaning of all Old Doctours to make an Argument of A Sicke mans case And as you haue allreadie made a Rule that no Authoritie against you shall stand but that which is taken iust out of the next six hundred after Christ will you so now perchannce contemne all Reasons as beggarly which are not without a certaine precincte of Deathes Dore I permit it to your Conscience whether this your Alas became your State Or can be suffered in an ernest Question An other Example A Third Example Here first I would aske the Indifferent Reader whether an English man borne might not vse in his writinges the Authoritie of S. Basile And whether S. Basile reporting it y â— they which lyned in wildernesse Or in Alexandria Or in Egypt had the Communion at home And kept it with theÌ„ selues And Receyued it of them selues it were not lawfull to speake it againe and to vse that Testimonie Yet M. Iewell sayeth Verely Iew. 138. if M. Harding could finde any thing in the Church he would not thus hunt the Mountaines neither would he flee for ayde into AEgypt if he could finde any neere at home What would this felow call the Liuing it self of holy men in Mountaines which nicknameth the diligent gathering of Argumentes out of their lyuing a hunting of Mountaines And calleth the vsing of the Fathers of Egypts Authoritie a fleeing for ayde into AEgypt How far I pray you will you suffer vs to goe for an Argument without Obiecting of fleeing vnto vs Yet what aske I you Leaue Or Counsel in this mater which am sure y â— Truth is not founde only in Europe but in euery place of the world where Christ is confessed Againe Who goeth farther He that goeth in his Answer beyonde Reason Or he y â— Reasoneth vpon a fact done beyonde the See called Mediterraneum And applieth it to his purpose Keepe your self warme at home M. Iewell as long as you may for if you be once out of your owne Countrie your Religion is so Vniuersall and Catholike that many myles before ye come to the Mountaines or Egypt you will be taken for a Renegate He hath alleged saieth M. Iewell of Doctor Harding two women The fourth Example Iew. 142 Disdainefully three sicke folk in their death beddes Personnes excoÌ„municate Infantes Phrenetikes and Madd men He hath alleged Napkyns Chestes Chambers Mountaines and wildernesse He alleged these in deede to proue Sole Receiuing And if your Mastership contemne the persons because they were VVomen Sicke folke Infantes Phrenetikes Or the thinges themselues because in telling of theÌ„ mention is made of Napkins Chestes Chambers and Mountaines Yet let the Indifferent Reader consider that these base Persons and Thinges were not by or for theÌ„selues respected of D. Harding but the Authoritie of
Wherefore did you mone this question whether within six hundred yeares after Christ any Communion was ministred vnto the people vnder one kind did ye it not to this end that you might conclude there vpon if no man woulde aunswer you that Christes Institution is now broken of the Catholikes which minister otherwise then they did in the Primitiue Churche Ergo the marke which you loke vnto is Christes Institution which to proue to be with vs or against vs we therefore consider the doinges of the Primitiue Church And because exaÌ„ples are fouÌ„d eneÌ„ in y e age such records as your self dare not yet deny by which we know y e receauing vnder one kind was many times vsed we coÌ„clude in y e principal y t it is not against Christes Institution to receaue vnder one kinde Do you deni y e coÌ„sequeÌ„t How caÌ„ you which haue so appeled to the primitiue Church as though you wold be coÌ„teÌ„t quiet if good testimonies of that time could be alleged againste you What say ye theÌ„ to y e AntecedeÌ„t ye coÌ„fesse it in plain words y e some receaued then vnder one kind Iew. 132. saying Neither did I deny that euer any one maÌ„ receued the CoÌ„munioÌ„ in one kind But yet you reply it was an abuse I here you wel But that is another question The. viij shift And it is another shift also much fouler theÌ„ any of the fornamed Remember your self M. Iewel I pray you and let vs conclude our matters in order The first question should haue bene â–ª VVhether Christes Institution doth stand with receauing vnder one kinde The first w t you but the second rather w t vs is whether any Communion was then ministred vnto the people vnder one kinde We proue you coÌ„fesse y â— some hath hen ministred Ergo it is time ye yeld subscribe A iij. question now if you wil shal be whether it were an abuse in y e primi tiue Church to receue vnder one kind And so furth in many other according to the circumstancies of Persons time and places But before we come to theÌ„ do you in the meane time as you promised for we haue proued y t which you denied Either yelde or take better hold fast and begin again If you striue say ye meÌ„t y t it was not OPENLY receiued vnder both kinds ORDINARIly ThaÌ„ what a trifâ—er or wraÌ„gler be you to chaleÌ„ge vs about circuÌ„staÌ„ces before we wer agreed vpoÌ„ y e substaÌ„ce of y e mater yet if you wil nedes haue OPENLY w t his felowes put in theÌ„ begin again speak more plainly for as ye haue proponed y e mater ye ace ouercoÌ„me And yet before ye begin w t those ciruÌ„staÌ„ces I warn you it wil be to no purpose because our selues may confesse vnto you y t we caÌ„ not gaine say it you shal coÌ„clude nothing against vs by it For y e churches cause is sufficieÌ„tly defeÌ„ded if receiuing vnder one kind may be proued by any auÌ„cieÌ„t exaÌ„ple w tout any exception made by you Thus it may be againe sene how M. Iew. speaketh in all this second Article to no purpose if he make the question so circumstantiall as he hath labored to haue it On the other syde the Catholike cause is sufficientlye defended both by our owne witnesses and by confession of our Aduersaries because it is proued sundry wayes that receauing vnder one kind was knowen and vsed in the Primitiue Churche and therefore vndoubtedly it is not repugnant to Christes Institution The third Article â‚ COncerning this question of the Common Prayers whether in the sixe hundred yeres after Christ they wert in a strange tonge which the People did not vnderstand what can any Catholik of these partes of the world say more then that they were in the Greeke tounge or Latine tounge only For whereas neither Authoritye of Scripture coÌ„maundeth it neither veritie of Tradition confirmeth it neither report of Historie witnesseth it neither yet any Token or Memorie signifieth it that the Publike Seruice of the Churche Easte or Weaste was within the compasse of the first six hundred yeres in any other tounge then Greeke or Latine what lightnesse muste it be to forsake the orders which we haue and take others I can not tell what 1. Cor. 14. The Apostle maketh an expresse distinction betwene the Idiote and him that supplieth the place It is no wisedome to chauÌ„ge that We haue for an other thing no maÌ„ is sure What. Of the Idiote concerning the Common Prayers he geueth no precept of the other he sayeth how shall he that supplieth the place of the Iâ—iote answer Amen vpon thy blessing Now by Tradition we haue receaued no other but Latine or Greeke Seruice Of the change of the vulgar touÌ„ge into any of these two Greek or Latin or of setting vp of these in stede of the knowen and vulgar tounge there is no mention in any writer And laste of al ther can be shewed no token or sufficient similitude that the Seruice of old tyme was in the vulgar tounge Ergo how should a reasonable man condemne that whiche hym selfe seeth so generally vsed and folowe another vnknoweÌ„ manner to which he is vncertainely referred S. Augustine saieth it but of Ceremonies August ad Ianuar ep 118. that If the whole Church throughout the world doe obserue any thing to dispute thereof it is a point of most insolent madnes And if it be so in ceremonies is it not much more so in publike Seruice For in Ceremonies because of indifferencie of theÌ„ in them selues and infirmity of some persoÌ„s which be ouer curiouse against them manie poyntes might be reasoned vpon and If manifest neede require be omitted Yet If the whole Church vse them there ought to be no question But in publike Seruice which perteyneth to the state of the Church and in which the mouing of any dout causeth the whole Religion to be shaken how is it to be suffered that she should be apposed Or that any Priuate persons without reason or authority shuld cal that into question which is generally receaued The Heretikes of this age say that the Latine Seruice for example in all the West Churche hathe not come frome the six hundred yeres after Christe Frome whence came it then Who were the planters of it Who were the mainteyners If they did it w t consent of al the Weast CouÌ„tries that is a great preiudice against your contentionsnesse How unlikely If they did it by force or violence would no man complaine of it presently Or put it in writing for instruction of the posteritie Surely this can not be but a great wonder y t the CoÌ„mon Seruice of the West Church was not generally in Latine euery where at y â— begynning And that so many thousand Churches in so many seuerall and diuerse Countries thereof should altogether most faithfully hold and kepe the same And no man yet tell
of what begynning But what should a Catholike be trobled in his mind or geue eare to Peekers of quarells If the iust and quiet Possessours of Auncient and good Landes should be made to bring foorth Euidencies and either answer to all demaundes whiche it pleaseth the Aduersarie to moue or ells to be quyte and cleane thrust out of all without any further iudgmeÌ„t would it not be accompted so vnreasonable and iniuriouse that no wise man or honest man could alowe it or suffer it What cause then is there why the troblers of quyet possessouts in Religion should be praysed and houoreâ— as ghostly Sâ—ruâ—yers I trow of all Christendome How hold you this quod he Mary what is that to thee Thou seest I hold it Yea but how came you by it Firste who gaue you the authority to aske me that question Then spare not Enchroching and busy heretikes but lay it to my charge if thou hast any euidence against me It was not so in the Primitiue Church Yes forsooth was it Bring me then sayeth he any sufficient authority of Doctor or Councell Folish felow wilt thou put me to my proofes which am in possessyon and haue long dwelt here as it can not be denied thy self being not able to shew from whence I had it except it were of the first Lordes and Patrones What right I haue the same I haue receiued And those that deliuered it to me toke it of others before them And they againe receiued it of their forefathers Neither canst y u proue any chaunge of Titles to haue come in betwene from the first Apostles Fathers to their children which now do liue Is it not therfore a sufficient defence to vs that thou canst not deny but the West Church doth vse and hath for hundred of yeres together spokeÌ„ Latiu generally in her Seruice and art not able to shew where she euer vsed English Dutch French or Spanish Thy silence in this question doth answer for vs. And it should be a demonstration to all reasonable men that vndoubtedly the publike Seruice here in the Weast was in Latin from the beginning TrafitioÌ„ for the 〈◊〉 because no other beginning therof can be shewed nor the ceasing of those vulgare Tongues which as M. Iewel getteth were once vsed can any where be found or espied Thus much should and would be said if the right way might be alowed But now present possession maketh nothing And therfore is D. Harding constrained to folow y e pleasure of y â— Extorciotier to proue that to be ours of auncient ryght y e long possession wherof without any disturbaÌ„ce coÌ„cludeth it to be our right Wherein though he hath done very well yet he bringeth nothing but M. Iewel turneth it to a gesse a likelihode a coniecture Which phrases are so common wyth him through all this Article as though he would admit no Authority or Argument but such as is taken out of the Scriptures or such as should be so euident and inuincible that he could haue no power to answer them His Phrases are these M. Harding is not able to proue this with all his gesses Iewel Againe 160 The Minor he warranteth but by a gesse only 166 Againe Reply is made and that by gesses and likelihods 180 Againe This gesse standeth vppon two poyntes And so in other places moe For this cause that it may be perceiued whether he allso vseth not Gheasses that he may learn in time to be good to others when he is fauorable to him selfe before I speake of D. Hardinges reason let vs a while hold our peace and put M. Iewel to answering Tel vs I pray you Sir for truths sake you which are so well seene in Antiquities and can appose and presse others so ernestly with obscure questions about the Primitiue Church Is it not reason that you geue better instructions which finde fault with the Catholikes opinions And iâ— the iudgment and answere of the whole Church that now is can not satisfye you should you with any conscience require your opinion to be receiued except ye bring Demonstrations for it Tell vs therfore I beseeche you without Gesses Coniectures and Like lihodes which you can not away withall was the publike Seruice of the Churche within the six hundred yeares after Christ Harding Pol. 74. in the Syriacal or Arabike in the AEgiptian AEthiopian Persian ArmeniaÌ„ ScythiaÌ„ FreÌ„ch or Britain tounge Here you may answer vnto vs This is no indifferent dealing Iew. 165 And again Sodainly he altereth the whole state of the cause and shifteth his handes and requireth me to shew But that it may appeare you deale plainly and seeke nothing but truthe Answer I pray you throughly and directly In one example or two you are content but why not in examples for all For the Syriacal tounge you speake the moste but why bring you not somewhat for eche of the other You will refer the rest to an other place vnto which straighte waits we will folowe you but presently thus you say At Paulaes funerall all the multitude of the Citye of Palestine met together Hierony mus in Epitaphio Pan 〈◊〉 The Psalmes were songe in order in Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tonge Well here in dede is mention of the Syrian Tounge and of Psalmes song in it But how proue you these Psalmes to infer the CoÌ„mon Seruice in the same tounge For by Psalmes I vnderstand Hymnes Songes and Praises made to the houor of God and memorie of S. Paula For Theodoretus reporteth as you beare me Lib. 4. cap. 10. witnesse that Ephrem made Hymnes and Psalmes in the Syrian tounge And that the same were songe at the solemne Feastes of Martyrs Lib. 4. ca. 29. Iew. 157 All Psalmes therefore were not the Psalmes of Dauid for Ephrem made new of his owne and the synginge of Psalmes at Paulaes funerall Here beginneth M. Iew. with his â—â—sses proue not but by Gheasse that they were part of the Common Seruice And therefore though ye haue brought foorth a place where mention is made of Psalmes in the Syrian tounge yet doe ye not satisfie our demauÌ„d and expectation whiche aske of Publike Seruice and looke to be playnly and euidently answered Ye adde vnto this a testimonie out of S. Augustine where he willeth the priestes to correct the errors of theyr Latine speache That the people vnto the thinge they playnly vnderstand may say Amen And what of this Iew. 156 This say you of S. Augustine seemeth to be spoken generally of all Tounges To whome seemeth it To your self I thinke and your cumpanie only An other gesse of M. Iew. And if to any other besyde it should likewise seeme so yet Seeming hangeth but vpon Gheasses and lykelihoodes And therefore is neither to be vsed of you which are to resolute to allege them neither to be named against vs which seeke now after your Euidences and perfect Instructions and must
the end of this Article these be his wordes Or rather his difinitiue sentence Although that which the Pope claymeth Extreâ—â— shiâ—â— were his very right yet by his owne Iudgement he is whorthie to lose it For Pope Gregorie saieth Priuilegium meretur amittere qui abutitur potestaâ—e Iew. 31â— He that abuseth his authoritie is worthie to lose his priuilege And Pope Siluerius sayeth Etiam quod habuit amittat qui quod non accepit vsurpat He that vsurpeth that he receaued not let him loose that he had Be it so He for his own part deserueth Like as the Temporal heades and Princes of the world wheÌ„ they doe not their office are worthie of losinge it But who shall depose them It must be done by Law and not by Insurrection And vntil lawful processe against them be ended the Common Wealthes are bound to obey them be they neuer so vnworthie Yet the Princes are made by men and raceaue Authoritie not immediatly from God but of the CoÌ„mon Wealth which doth choose them But the Pope whome Christ him selfe without Consent of men goinge before or voyce of y â— world hath made Head of his Church throughout the whole worlde who shall take his Priuilege frome him if he should be thereof vnworthie For the Prerogatiue and chiefe Authoritie geauen by God muste continew what soeuer the partye his merites are The Apostle also saieng There is no power except it be froÌ„ God and obey you Rom. 13. Prepositours and such as are set ouer you Heb. 13. And if the chosen of God 1. Reg. 24 King Dauid hauinge Saull at a vantage besought God to staye his handes that hym selfe might not kill hym sweringe that As trewlye as GOD liueth excepte God stroke hym or hys tyme were come to dye or he should be destroyed in Battayle he would not lay haÌ„ds vpon the Anoynted of God And if our Sauiour Christe commaunded the Iewes To doe that which the Scribes and Pharisies dyd saye vnto them though their lyuing and behauiour otherwise was so euill that he charged them not to doe as they dyd who dare be so bould as hurte Or dissobeye the Anoynted of God The Highest Bisshoppe in all Christendome the Successour of S. Peter lawfullye sutttrg in Chaire and Place of Instructinge and gouerning the Faithfull Wil the SuperintendeÌ„tes of the Church of England doe it By what law and reason Mary y â— Canon law shal be brought furth 11. quaest 2. pâ—iuilegium and 25. quaest 2. Sic decet caet And M. Iewel shal alleage a Glose or make a Glose vpon it Of which the whole Fraternity must coÌ„clude that if it were neuer so much proued that the B. of Rome was Called in the six hundred yeres after Christ Head of the Vniuersall Church And though it were his verye Right Yeâ— for as much he abuseth his Priuilege he deserueth to leese it And we wil haue him no more Obeied Fare well he And so breketh out this fourth Artitle into Presumptuons Contempte of Lawfull Authoritie Thus haue we the cumpasse of M. Iewels triflinge Processe First the Name he saieth can not be found and as long as that Answer will hold he Insulteth and Braggeth like Iewel him selfe Then the Calling of S. Leo Vniversal Bisshope in the Councel of Chalcedon was not a Calling of him so in deede but an Offering to cal him so And so the testymony of y â— inward Goodwill is not sufficiente but he muste haue it declared by worde of mouthe Thirdly poore Priestes and Deacons but none of the Councell of Chalcedon did geue it So by like none but Noble Personages and men of honor shall geaue Voices Fourthly though S. Peter the first Bisshope of Rome were so called yet the question is not moued of him but of the Pope So might the Successour challenge nothing of the Prerogatiue of his Predecessour Fyfthly if it were geuen but once Or twise it is no matter because our question sayth he is of the Vsual Stile So must we bringe furth a Proclamation I trow Or Scale for it Or els nothing is done Sixthly in a kinde of Speache the B. of Rome as also of Constantinople may be called by the Title of VNIVERSAL So shail it be but a Phrase only and of no weight Or Substance what so euer be alleaged for these Titles aforsayed Last of all if it were the Popes Right Yet is he worthy to leese it And so it â—ooteth no more to Reason of this question for that they haue done they wil not 〈◊〉 Such is theyr finall determination By which way of violence and force if the cause of Religion may be folowed ye will be to stronge M. Iewel not only for Oppressed Catholikes in these your prosperous daies but allso againste quiet Catholikes where they liue with the loue of their Soueraignes But if this muste needes seeme vnreasonable in Professors of a new Gospel which take vpon them to direct vs by the expresse woorde of the Lorde in the Right knowledge of all Truthe and Honesty I will truste that this Detection of you their Chiefe man of Warre Shifting Striuing Craking Dissembling Lying Triumphing c. will cause the Indifferent Reader to Beware of M. Iewel ⧠⧠⧠Thus endeth the First Booke THE SECOND Booke Declaring by more Speciall Detection of M. Iewels behauiour that it is needeful to BEWARE of hym THE proper Conueiaunce and Art which M. Iewel hath vsed in the foresayed Articles I haue for the speciall poyntes of those questioÌ„s shortly and sufficiently discouered For which his conueyance allthough the Iudifferent or Waueringe myndes should wisely BEWARE of him and his owne frendes and deere brothers the Protestantes myght with a good zeale require of him either to begyn a Newe Challenge Or defende him selfe better in the Old And thoughe I my selfe might for these causes thinke enough to be already sayed againste him Yet because Affection and Loue is not only blinde in it selfe but darkeneth also the sighte of vnderstandinge and Reason that his Fauorers will not lightly perceaue his foule fasshions except they appeere both Many and Great and Notable And because the weaker and doubtfuller in such mater are not satisfyed with suffiente but require abundauce and euidencie I will for these two sortes of mens sakes declare yet further and plainer what Worthinesse is in M. Iewels Replye Of the Common Places which M. Iewel hath ouercharged his boke withal in the first four Articles CAP. I. FIrst concerning the outward shewe only and face of his boke it is so great in quantitye so faire in sight and so Liuely as I may say by resoÌ„ of many Allegations and Authorities out of Councels Fathers Histories Law Ciuil and Canon and the Glose also therevpon that it cummeeh very quickly into ones minde to thinke that a matter of nothing should not increase to such bygnes nor an euil fauored cause so well be set furth nor Auncient witnesses be so thickly brought out
Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of
saie we neede no Councel to restore Gods Truth that was taken awaie from vs without a Councel Euerie prince is bound in the whole to see the reformation of his owne Church and Countri Neither wil God hold him excused if he saie I wil tarye til al other Princes and the whole world doe the Lyke Iosue that noble prince when he had assembled al the tribes of Israel before him thus he spake vnto them Si malum vobis videtur c. If ye thinke it il to serue the Lord ye shal haue your choise But I and my house wil serue the Lord. Is it Lawful then to refuse the Nicene Councel euen in this respect only as it consisted of Chiefe heades and Gouernours of al Christendome Tertul. aduersuâ— Praxeâ— It pleased God to plant his Church in this Realme three hundred yeres before the first General Councel was holden at Nice The Lordes hand is not shortened He is likewise hable nowe to reforme the same by his holie word without tarieing for a General Councel For Antiquitie TErtullian saieth Hoc aduersus omnes Haereses valet id esse veruÌ„ quodcunque prius c. This marke preuai leth Against al Heresies That is the Trueth that was vsed first That is false and corrupt that was brought in afterward And therefore the holy fathers in the Councel of Nice made this general shoute and agreed vpon the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let the AuncieÌ„t orders hold stil referring themselues thereby to the vse and order of the Primitiue Church Contrarywyse Valentinus Marcion and other Lyke Heretykes thought themselues wisest of al others and therefore vtterly refused as M. Harding and his felowes doe now to stand to the Apostles orders Thus Ireneus writeth of them Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 2. Dicunt se non solum presbyteris c. They wil saie y t thei are wiser not only then other Priestes but also then the Apostles and that they haue found owt the perfite trueth Against Antiquitie NOtwithstanding it appeare by S. Augustine S. Cyprian Iew. 12â— and others that Infantes in the primitiue Church in sundrie places were admitted to the holy Communion yet AFTERWARDE vpon good aduyse they were iustly remoued from it because that benig in that age they were not thought hable to examine and proue theÌ„selues according to the doctrine of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11 and so to eate of that Breade and Drinke of that Cup. By this rekening then they of the primitiue Churche vnderstode not S. Paule so wel as the aftercummers And so hath Tertullians saiâ—ing litle effect how That is the Trueth that was vsed first It wil serue also in this place al that M. Iew. hath gathered Against Fathers and custome as aboue is declared For Vnitie GOD hath other waies and meanes saieth M. Iew. then by the Gouernement of the Bishopes of Rome whereby he hath euer gouerned his Church and preserued Vnitie How proueth he this Mary S. Cyprian saieth Ideo plures c. Therefore there be many Bishopes in the Church Iew 260 that one ruÌ„ning into heresies y â— rest may help e againe Cypr. lib. 3. epi. 13. lib. 4. epi. 9. The Churche is preserued in Vnitie by y e coÌ„sent of bishopes agreing in one And to this end S. Hiecome saieth as is before alleged Nouerint Episcopi c. Let Bishopes vnder staÌ„d In epi. ad Titum cap. 1. that they ought to rule y e Church as al in one Against Vnitie IMmediatly vpoÌ„ y t forsaied wordes foloweth a CoÌ„moÌ„ place against Vnitie As if M. Iewel would plainely protest that when it maketh any thing for his syde then it shal be alowed and praised And y t when the aduersarie would turne it to his purpose then shal it be litle or nothing worthe As in example Iew. 260 Hieron contra Luciferianos S. Hierome saieth Nomine vnitatis fidei Infidelitas scripta est Infidelitie hath ben writen vnder the Name of faith and Vnitie So lykewyse saieth the wyse man In tanto viuentes ignoraÌ„tiae bello Sap. 14. tot tanta mala Pacem appellabant VVhereas they Lyued in such a warr of ignorance so many and so greate mischiefs they called Vnitie What remaineth then now to be folowed of certaintie Or what staie shal there be for a right meanyng affection and trobled conscience If no such hold is to be taken of Fathers Councels Custom c. but that the Enemie wil make it to be forsaken vtterly or daungerously doubted of what Refuge is there left or what Authoritie Shal the Bishopes which are for the tyme rule in the causes of Religion That surely is already so apointed by God and that if it were otherwise should chieflie be wyshed for and procured But what hope is there to haue this graunted of M. Iewel Or if at one time he wil yeld vnto it at an other he will deny it For sometimes he will haue all Bishops equall And what order then can be set there where no one is better then an other Sometimes he will haue differencies and distinctions of Authoritie among them Yet then how little shall that preuaile when he wil not be obedient to that Authority As in example For aequalitie of Bishops S. Hierome wryteth thus vnto Euagrius Iew. 2â— Si Authoritas quaeritur c. If we seeke for Authority the world is greater then the Citie of Rome VVheresoeuer there is a Bishop whether he be at Rome or at Eugubium or at Constantinople or at Rhegium c. he is of like worthines and of like priesthode Because we are not onely led inwardly by Gods Spirit Iew. 257. but allso outwardly by our senses therefore hath Christ appointed not one man to be his Vicar Generall ouer all but euery of his Apostles and so euery Priest to be his Vicar within his diuision So saieth Eusebius B. of Rome Caput Ecclesiae Christus est Epist 3 c. Christ is the heade of the Church And his Vicares be the Priestes that doe their Message in the Churche in the steede of Christ Euery Bishop hath a portion of the Flocke allotted vnto him Iew. 266. Cyp li. 1. Epi. 3. whiche he must rule and gouerne and yeld accoÌ„pt vnto the Lord for the same For distinction emong Bishops The Decrees of the Councel of Nice Iew. 336. Conc. Aphric Ca. 105 haue committed bothe the inferioure clerkes and also the Bishoppes vnto their Metropolitaâ—es The Fathers of the Councell of Aphrica haue decreed thus that the B. of the first See Iew. 240 Ca. 6. be not called the chief of Priests or the highest Priest or by any other like title but only the Bishop of the first See In the Councel of CoÌ„stantinople it is wryten thus Iew. 245 Const 1. Ca. 2. Let the Bishops of Alexandria haue the charge only of the East the honor of primaci euer reserued to the church of Antioch More to this place might
y â— your selfe at this place had takeÌ„ of some Cup to much which could either mocke in an ernest matter so drilie or vnderstaÌ„d a reasonable argumeÌ„t so droÌ„keÌ„ly I caÌ„ not see what necessitie is in this reason Iew. 140 The 12. Example The man is frentike Or lieth Speechlesse Ergo he caÌ„ not receiue the Sacrament bread In deede your eies herein serue you well and euery reasonable man will beare you witnesse that no necessitie is in this Argument But what necessitie was there why you should not rightly either perceaue Or report D. Hardings reason For thus it is The Sacrament was powred into the mouth of him Harâ— which in his sicknes demaunded hys housel And er he dyed fel into phrenesie or became speachlesse Ergo it was geauen vnder onekynde and in forme of wine For how thinke you M. Iewel haue you seen or reade that when men haue ben extreme sicke Breade hath ben Powred into their mouthes by reason theÌ„ it was wine which is sayed to haue ben Powred Consider also what foloweth in D. Harding owt of the Councel of Toledo where you shall fynde it proued that Some sicke men are so vnable to take the Sacrament in forme of bread y t they receiued oÌ„ly A draught of our Lordes Cup. Therefore you are much deceaued which thinke D. Har. to be as mad as you and of phrenesie or lack of Speeche to gather that they receiued in Forme of breade If the Manichees would not beleue Leo or Augustine Iew. 147 The 13. Example Wickedly that Christ had one body how muche lesse would they beleue M. Harding that Christ hath two bodies the one in the Bread the other in the cup And eche wholy in the other Where saieth D. Harding so In no place at all you maie be assured but this is that which you carpe at M. Iewel The Catholikes beleue and D. Harding for his parte confesseth that vnder either kynd whole Christ is verely present Har. Fol. 50. Christ therefore is not diuided by one Or two Or moe as your blasphemous Inâ—ention dare make but the selfesame Christ is by diuers and sundrie waies dispensed For in A naturall and lesser Example Your Anima Life Or Sowle is but one the same is Whole in your litle finger Whole in your thumbe and in euery part of your body Whole Yet you haue not I trow so many lyues by tale as you haue toes and fingers Now if your brethern Or other vnlerned wil not perceaue this true Principle that Anima est tota in toto tota in qualibet parte which yet your self I trust doe admitt how litle can they comprehend of Christes whole presence vnder either kynde of the Sacrament And how desperate are you to make some beleue that D. Hardinges opinion is that one body of Christ is in the Breade An other in the Cup Whereas you can not be ignorant of the Catholike and Receiued Faithe herein M. Hardinge The 14. Example Iew. 158 Fansie seemeth to reason thus EphreÌ„ made homilies in the Syrian tongue And S. Hierome translated the Bible into the SlauoÌ„ Tongue Ergo the Common Seruice was in the Latine or Greeke tongue Many thinges seeme vnto you M. Iew. which are not so in deede For D. Harding in these places which you allege susteineth the person not of an Opponent as to you it seemeth which maketh argument for his owne syde But of a Respondent As his boke declareth which putteth awaie the obiections of his aduersarie Har. Fol. 74. 〈◊〉 75. As in ExaÌ„ple The homilies which Ephrem made in the Syrian Tongue and the scripture which S. Hierome translated into the Slauon tongue were not part of the Publike seruice nor serued to that purpose Ergo It is to no purpose to proue by them that the Publik seruice was in the mother tongue To this effect D. Har. answereth And doth not at all gather by holy Ephrem Or S. Hierom that the Seruice was in the Latine or Greeke tongue There is a proper Place to doe euery thing in And the Opponent and Respondentes partes are distinct one from the other Here M. Hardinge taketh in hande The 15. Example Iew. 158 to Answer the Authorities by me alleged And that with this special note of Remembrance in y â— margin M. IVELS ALLEGATION SOLVTED It appeereth his Solutions be very short For what so euer be alleged it is sufficient for him to saie WHAT THEN For whereas I saied c. What a doâ—â—pon no â—ccasiâ—â— saugng M. Iew. 〈◊〉 Al this is sone Answered For M. Har. saith WHAT THEN 〈◊〉 alleged the saieing of S. Basile That the sounde c. The saieing of S. Hierome THat y â— noise c. Lykewise of Chrysostom COmmon petitions c. But WHAT THEN saith M. Harding why WHAT THEN Thinketh M. Harding that the Authoritie of Arnobius S. Ambrose S. Augustine S. Basile S. Hierome S. Chrysostome and other holy fathers is so light that he is able to blow theÌ„ all awaye with these two vaine syllables WHAT THEN Here lacketh no Inuention here lacketh no AmplificatioÌ„ but only a Iust cause to bestow them vpon For in deede D. Harding saieth vnto M. Iewel rowling in his Authorities WHAT THEN but he addeth further No man denietb you this How then M. Iewel Doth D. Har. thinke the authoritie of holy Fathers to be light Or that he is able to blowe them all awaie w t two vayne syllables No verely his Sprite is not so mightie But he directeth his WHAT THEN only to you no Father yet nor Holy one askyng to WHAT END you be so ernest in that which no man denieth you Because he reuereuceth the holy Fathers therefore doth he admit their Authorities but because it greeueth hym to see them brought furth for a shew only and countenaunce to be made on your syde without any iust occasion or purpose therfore he demaundeth of you by a WHAT THEN to shew the cause wherfore you alleged theÌ„ You draw a faire length M. Iewel but you shoote at a wronge marke Or at none rather at all But he saieth The 16. Example Iew. 199 Needelesse Feare The place of S. Paule is doubt ful c. S. Ambrose S. Augustine S. Chrysos c. vnderstode it diuersly And wil he therfore conclude thus These Fathers mistook S. Paules Sense Ergo S Paule had no sense Or diuers Doctours touching this place had diuerse Iudgements Ergo we must haue no Iudgement Troble not yourselfe M. Iewel with any of these doubtes for he geaueth you no occasion But in answering your argumeÌ„t and not in forming any of his owne he requireth of you 1. Cor. 14 that S. Paules sense where he speaketh of the blessing and speaking w t Spirit being so doubtfull as it is you should not so precisely conclude that he meaneth by Praing in Spirit â—ar Fol. 〈◊〉 y e prayeing with a noise of strange wordes after your strange Interpretation Or
crake before the people that S. Paules wordes are most manifest that al publike Seruice should be in the Vulgare Tongue Now let vs consider M. Hardinges reasons The state saieth he The 17. Example Iew. 204. Slaunderously of the primitiue Churche was farr vnlike the state of the Church we be now in Ergo we are not bound to S. Paules Commaundementes For shame of your selfe why make you D. Harding to speake so Contemptuously of the Apostle and so proudly of him selfe Har. 95. His mynd rather is that It is no Commaundement at al of the Apostle because there were necessarye occasions to geaue it in the primitiue Church which are not so necessary now And so it ceaseth to be a CoÌ„maundement vnto vs. As that women should goe couered it was his expresse CoÌ„maundement yet now I trust you make noe coÌ„science of it 1. Cor. 11 to suffer your Sisters to goe w t open face Not because you Reason thus we are not bounde to the Apostles com maundement but because the state of this tyme and that beinge diuers you would interprete that it continueth no more to be â— Commaundement Againe he saieth The 18. Example Iew. 204 Some one or other in a parisshe vnderstandeth somwhat of the Latine tongue Ergo they owght to haue the Serulce in a strange Tongue Har. fol 95. Not so M. Iewel but Ergo the latine tongue is not vtterly Strange and vnknowen And therefore not forbidden by S. Paule The People is sufficiently iâ—structed in ReligioÌ„ The 10. Exemple Iew. 204 〈◊〉 They come togeather now not so much to be instructed as to praie ergo they ought to haue the Seruice in a Strange tongue Neither is this so M. Iewel but Ergo there is no necessitie wherefore it should be in the vulgare As for this Absolute conclusion that it ought to be in Latine how can any Catholitie make it Whereas it is confessed that the Pope hath dispensed with the Slauons to haue their Seruice in the vulgare Tongue And may if cause so require permit it also vnto other Countries It were good saieth M Harding the people vnderstode the Seruice The 10. Example Iew. 206 Forgette not this good Reader that the People vnderstode their Seruice M. Harding himselfe confesseth it were good And why so Yea but remember good Reader or els marke D. Hardinges owne wordes in which he speaketh not absolutly of the people but of people hauing humble and Reuerent hartes And such to vnderstande their Seruice it were he graunteth good but see what foloweth in M. Iewel And why so doubtlesse because is forced to see and say that it would redound to the Glorie of God And to the greate Cumfort and Profite of the people Therefore he faieth it WERE GOOD whereof we maie gather this argument of the contrary Then that the people in this brute sort is kept stil in ignorance Much making of nothing not vnderstandinge any portion of their Common Seruice by M. Hardinges confession It is il And is it not lawful to doe that is Good to Redresse that Is il to seeke Gods glorie And the cumfort of his People without consent of a General Councel c. It were Good M. Iewel euery man to know The Rules of Physik to haue thereby how to helpe hymself The Statutes of the Common Law the better to keepe them The Counsel of God in working owr RedemptioÌ„ And may you then wel gather this Argument of the contrarie that it is il to be ignorant of Phisike Law Diuinitie Surely least you should take this aduantage And shew after a wise sorte your folly Shameful Craft or Errour D. Harding prouided very well but that you diuide his senteÌ„ce which is but one For after he had saied It were good the people hauing humble reuereÌ„t hartes vnderstode y e seruice Har. I denie not Although you make not only a ful point there but also an ende of your 31. diuision as who should thinke D. Har. had saied as much as he wil in this senteÌ„ce Yet there foloweth immediatly this aduer satiue yet al standeth not in vnderstan dinge By which he meaneth expresly that though it were Good the people to vnderstand their seruice yet it is not il to be vnskilful thereof because al standeth not in vnder standinge as he proueth owt of two places of S. Augustine Now see your fidelitie M. Iewel this Aduersatiue YET which openeth the matter And should goe together with y e former parte of the sentence you cut awaiâ— cleane from it And begyn your 32. diuision with it that you might seeme not to haue Reasoned al in vaine in saieing This is good ergo the other is il Whereas if you take D. Har. whole meaning you shal finde him to say no more in Effect but This is good yet y e other is not to be mislyked Haue you any Priuilege thus to peruert right Senses at your pleasure Owt of Origine M. Harding gathereth this Reason The 21. Example Few 210 The Angels are delited to heare vs reade or Praie although we of our weaknes know not throughly what we speake Ergo the people in Origens tyme had the Common Seruice in a strange tongue Not so M. Iewel although the Conclusion be true but if you add further to the Antecedent as you should doe that the Reading of Psalmes though not vnder standed do prouoke the Angels to help vs then foloweth the right consequent in deede Ergo there cometh profite to the Reader and hearer of the seruice in the Latine tongue Har. 97 â–ª though it be not vnderstanded The people The 22. Example Iew. 214 saieth M. Harding is grosse and simple And can not vnderstand the scriptures by hearing the same in the Mother tongue Ergo they must heare it pronounced in the Latine tongue This semeth to be a very simple Argument It is so in deede yet it is of your owne making which myslike it For D. Har. concludeth after an other sort saieing Ergo if our new masters wil condemne the Latine seruice in the Latine Churche Had. Fol. 98. for that the people vnderstand it not thei must also condemne for a great part y e Englishe seruice Which the common people for y e greatest parte of the Scriptures read therein doe not vnderstand Seruice in the vulgare Tongue The 23. Example Iew. 216 is cause of Schismes and errours Ergo within 6. hundred yeares afteâ— Christ it was ministred in some place in a tongue vnknowen vnto the people Falsely The force of this conclusion is euident A very child may sone see through it Much more then you see through it your selfe And doe ye not then perceaue y â— it is of your owne subtile making and none of D. Hardinges whose Reason is this The people of those countries Har. 99. where the seruice was in the vulgare tongue haue continued in schismes and Errours Ergo example is not to be