can begin the World a freshe And the foundation of six hundred yeres standing on sure grounde let him pull downe all that hath beene builded and shew vs some fyne peâ—ce of worke of his owne suche I trowe as shall in all Proportion agree w t the Primitiue Churche and ryse in a moste goodly Ordre of euery Hâ—ndred yeare since one aboue an other vntill he come vnto this very time in whiche he liueth and geue men to see moste plainly and euidently that his Churche now is of the same makinge without any Imperfection Or gaping of the worke that may be espied Let him I say make an Uniforme and Apte worke For if he will beginne at the ende of the six Hundred yeares and immediately ioyne thereto the state of His Congregation at this Present either it will be a Miraculous worke to see foundacions with meâ—ely high wals and a Roufe a great waye from them without any Stone Timber Staye or Workemanshippe betweene Either will it be a very Eâ—ilfauoured matter to see one peece hanging so farre from the other as Germans of Heretikes lippes doe hange togeather If therefore your building be Sure and True Ioine yeres to yeres and without all gappes or holes make the whole Perfite Close and One. But ye are as wel able to doe it and knit or ioine your Church to the Primitiue as ye are to builde vp againe Al the Abbeies in England Or proue vnto vs that the Stones of them which lie now broken in high waies or were caried out of the waie to building of Gentelmens places doe answer rightly in the forme which they haue at this present to the Foundations and Pillers remainyng yet vnto some Religious houses from whence they haue ben taken Especially this Principle of your Artificioâ—snes standing that the Testimonie of these last nine hundred yeres is not to be Alleaged or Alowed Which being so Uniust and Unreasonable as I haue declared Either let M. Iewel vtterly put out of his Replye what so euer he hath gathered and scraped out of Canons Gloses Scholemen Heretikes Historiographers and other Wryters whatsoeuer of later yeres And from hensefurth fill no more Papers with such kind of stuffe Either els let him be ashamed to bind vs to the first six hundred only himselfe not able to Conteine himselfe Or Maintaine hys cause within that cumpasse But I know I aske his losse For If he may not peeke out of all times such Signes of Defence for his cause as maâ—â— seeme to serue for it he will be quickly vndone in the best Limme he hath And without all doubt will be â—ongtied As on the other side If he will set vs haue right and suffer vs to proue our cause by godly and Lerned witnesses of what so euer Age they be so that he can make no lawfull Exception against them then is he vtterly vndone in his owne Conscience knowing that the Catholike Church doth expressely and by name condemne his Masters Heresies So that it is not otherwise likely but he will haue vs to stand fast bound to the first six hundred yeres and will reserue vnto himselfe that special Priuilege to Take and Make his vantage Where and When so euer he may 1 That M. Iewel refuseth to â—e tried by the Sentence or Testimony of the first six hundred yeres to which only he appealeth WHat Remedie then If M. Iewel shall prouoke manfully and wretchedly apoint vs a bouÌ„d which we may not go beyoÌ„d in coÌ„ming against him If he may vse xv C. yeres and odd and we not vi C. and one day ouer If he shal fetch nede lesse vagaries and we be restrained of our lawfull libertie what Remaineth â–ª Uerelye to haue pacience vntill it shall please Almighty God either to conuerâ—e his heart to repentaunce either to moue the minds of other to hauâ— a better consideration of these Matters whiche pertaine to their Saluation either to come him selfe in Iudgemente and make an ende of all Proceedings Yet this in the meane time thou maist consider indifferent Reader that we are two manner of wayes abused by M. Iewell First that ye wil prescribe vnto vs from whence we shall take our Argumentes against him Secondly that himselfe will not be content with those Condicions whiche he prescribeth vnto vs. But is this all the wrong that Maister Iewell doth vnto Us No it is nâ—t all For now I shall declare vnto thee how Himselfe will not admitte the Witnesses of the very first six hundred yeares vnto whiche he straightly byndeth vs. And what can bee more vnreasonable For in seperating the last nine Hundred from the first six and in alowing the Firste and condemning the Latter what dothe he but note vnto vs the Iâ—corruption and Puritie of Faith in those daies and not warrant the Testimonies to be good if it be taken out of the first six hundred yeres after Christ. Of the first he saieth If ani learned maÌ„ c be able to bring any one Sufficient Sentence c. that the thinges vpon which he Chalengeth vs were vsed or alowed in the Primitiue Churche for the space of six hundred yeres after Christ I am content to yeld and subscribe Of the Later yeres he saieth S. Bernard is a Doctour but of late yeres therefore his Authoritie must weigh the Lighter If therefore there be no Excellencie or Prerogatiue in the first six hundred why diuided he them so Precisely and Diligently from the later nine And If there be so Great as he seemeth to make why will not he himselfe stand vnto the Iudgment of that Primitiue Churche And that first age so chast and vndefiled Choose one of these two M. Iewel which you will And let vs see an Example and token either of your wisdome and Prudencie in Separating for some iust cause the Beginninges of the One and whole Summe of xv C. yeres from the latter endes of it either of your Iustice and Indifferencie in regarding the witnesses of the First six hundred yeres which you require to be exactly folowed of others For as you say Lyra and Teutonicus liued at the least Thirtene C. yeares after Christ Therefore their Authoritie must needes seeme the lesse Whye saye ye not also S. Leo and S. Gregorie liued fiue hundred yeares after Christe Therefore their Authoritie must nedes seme the lesse Or why put you A Difference betwene the Former and the later yeres of the xv C. in which Christ hath ruled his church And if your wisedome saw good causes wherefore you should sort y â— yeres which haue passed sence Christes Incarnation after a rare maner cul out as it were the best from the worst with what Conscience then and Equitie can you refuse to be ordered by the Testimonie of the better sort of them For if against the later nine hundred yeres which you take from vs this Exception of yours is inough to discredite them that they were Late It foloweth consequently that to the
to haue that bâ—ougâ—t oâ—t of any Olde Catholique Doctour or Father â–ª or any Olde General Councel c What other thing is this but a Mountebankes Preface to commend his wares vnto the Audience As if he should say in plainer woordes 〈◊〉 to them 〈◊〉 beloued in the Lorde you mâ—y tâ—ke me perchaunce for a Benchwhistâ—er or a man of litle knowledge and practise and altogeather vnhable to reproue the General and Catholique Doctrine of the whole world and to draw you from those Maisters and Teachers which alwaies hitherto ye haue ben ruled â—y But I shal tel you deere brethren I haue seene and readen as much as any man yea as all the learned men aliue I haue trauailed vnto the very Primitiue Church it selfe I haue bene conuersant with Old Catholike Doctors and Fathers and old General Councels As for these Priests Cardinals and Popes whom you folowe they bring nothing but Conclusions of Scholemen and deuises of Later Doctours and Ceremonies of their owne making c. But I will bring you no other thing but that which is Auncient I wil bring you back to the Institution of Christ himself You shal haue al things ministred vnto you as they were in the time of the Apostles You shal heare God himself speake vnto you The Priestes shall robbe you no more of halfe the Sacrament You shall knowe what you heare readden in the Church Ye shal haue no Supremacie of Pope no Real Presence of Christs body in the Sacrament Ye shal be brought to Old Customes which y e Councel of Nice would haue to preuaile And Tertullian shal teach you how that is true that was first ordeined And as I saied before so say I now againe If any man aliue be hable to reproue me I will become his obedient Scholer But I know there is not one that is able to doâ— it and because I know it therefore I speake it So beginneth the Mountebanke But in further processe he is proued to be so vaine in Craking So crafty in Shifting So demure in CouÌ„terseiting So false in Affirming So desperate in Abusing of his Aduersarie of old Councels and Doctours yea and of new also that it is perceiued wel inough euen of them that say God saue you my Lorde vnto him that al is not so as he saith Neuerthelesse they haue a good sporte to see the prety Shiftes and Defenses and Scapes that the Mountebanke canne make And though it be euident that he liâ—â—h yet they thinke not these maters to be so great or necessary but men may suffer them wel inough to be mainteined how so euer it be as long as neyther Trade of Merchaundise nor Study of Temporal Law nor Pastime abrode nor Pleasure at home is hindered by it For like as we may vnderstand by the maâ—ket folkes how the market goeth So when it is in sight that in Countries and Cities of greatest policy priuate mens goodes are not without punishment touched but the Common Churches of the whole Countrie are openly spoyled And when Papistes are neither suffred to speak â–ª nor to go abrode but Caluinistes Lutherans and Anabaptistes are not only suffred to speake but to speake one against the other And in one Citie or Countrie to set furâ—h and maintaine contrary Doctrines it is easy to perceiue that The vvisedome of God is but folly emong men And that al is for Policie and nothing for Religion and that men haue so forsaken the old Faith that they are not sâ—ttled in any new And that Faith in deede is almost extinguished by to much folowing of Carnal Reason and that Reason in thousandes is vtterly blinded because thei haue put from them the Obedience vnto Faith Yet this Corruption notwithâ—tanding I haue taken some paines in â—erswading with thee Indifferent reader to BEVVARE of M. Iewel Fearng in deede least to many be so in Indifferent that they passe not whether he say true or false And praying to God that they may haue A desire to know the Trueth which as yet care not for it and that other may haue a constancie to confesse the Truth when they know it And that the rest condemne not the the Truth before they know it Farevvel From Louane Quaâ—doquidem liber hic tertius contra M. Ievvellum à viris Linguae Anglicanae Sacrae Theologiae eruditissimis probatus est iudico eum tutô posse distrahi euâ—lgari Ità testor Cunerus Petri Pastor S. Petri. Louanij 3. Nouemb. 1566 ¶ Faultes escaped in the Printing Folio Page Line Fault Correction 6. 2. 1. Latines Laâ—enesse 40. 2. 12. ye he 47. 1. 6. Degrees Decrees 63. 1. 13. Dionysi of Dionysius 63. 2. 19. them then 80. 2. 2. tel lyes to tel lies 118. 2. 14. CoÌ„staÌ„â—in Constantius 141. 2. 4. y â— visible that a visible 142. 2. 15. he coÌ„clu he were conclu 160. 2. 3. primitiue Primate 181. 2. 16. the coÌ„munioÌ„ praier the Lordes prayer 191. 1. 3. peple vn peple might vn 195. 1. 7. of old Fa. of the old Fa. 197. 1. 14. ValeÌ„tians Valentinians 206. 1. 18. Suprem Preeminence 216. 2. 27. y â— it were that if it were 217. 2. 4. ar bound are not bound Ibid.  24. How say How sayed 221. 2. 10. yet if yet it 225. 2. 11. can say can truly say 230. 2. 8. gather easily gather 234. 2. 16. Trick or two Tricke or Toy In the Margent 172. 1. for is for there is 228. 1. Iew. 21. Ioan. 21. IbideÌ„  taken out of taken of The Third Booke of BEWARE OF M. Iewel IT may seeme by my Two former Bookes y â— I haue detected as great Sophistrie Brauerie Insinceritie of M. Iewels as any man lightly that hath but worldly regarde of his Trueth and Honestie may coulourably venter to practise But in comparison of that which I haue further to obiect the forsaid behauiours may seme to be perdonable For D. Harding is but one man and the same not knowen to the whole worlde and much lesse honoured of the whole He is also his Aduersary and M. Iewel taketh him selfe to be in no point perchaunse of lesse worthinesse And if in some one or two D. Harding farre passâ—th him yet in many moe on the other side he thinketh him selfe to be better And therefore when he doth handle him at his pleasure belye him Contemne him Mocke him and Tosse him without doubting or blusshing although it be very il done yet it is not exceeding il But to despise men without al doubt worthy notable To set light by them whom the whole world hath reuereÌ„ced To interprete Lawes and Canons after his own liking To disanul general couÌ„cels To corrupt Auncient Fathers To set them vp to pul them doune againe To bring them in to thrust them againe out To binde men to the Authoritie of the first six hundred yeares To appeale to the Primitiue Church only in his own cause and to drawe his Aduersarie vnto any State of Churche
persons When our Sauiour vpon a time preached in the Synagoge of the Iewes so singularly well that all men wondred at his Doctrine Hovv cummeth this felovve sayed they by all this lerning Is not this he that is the Carpenter the sonne of Mary the brother of Iames and Ioseph Are not his sisters also here dvvelling vvith vs As who should say We know his bringing vp well inough And therefore he is not so greatly to be wondered at Such is the Iudgment of carnall men euen vnto this day They measure Truthes by their Imaginacions And set a great Price on thinges that are farther out of their reach Contemning as good or better than those thinges are when they are easy to be found or alwaies present Which thing If it come of the Misery of our Nature it is to be lamented and the Remedie is to be sought for of hym which therefore toke our whole Nature synne excepted vpon him that by partaking thereof we might be purged of our sinne and Corruption If it come of the Foly of any deintines it is in some parsons to be reproued with fauor like as Children and Women are much to be borne withall in respect of their weakenesse and frailtie If it come of lacke of better Instruction Or dulnesse of vnderstanding as in the Rude and Simple of the Countrie they are to be warned as well as we may and for the rest to be â—raied for and tolerated If it come of some Pride Spite or Contention it is to be condemned and hated what so euer the person be But in M. Iewel whereof may I thinke that this Affection doth come of which I speake For you also in defining of euerlasting Trueth by Terme of yeares doe seeme to haue a spice of their disease which coutemne the good things that are nigh vnto them Shall I Impute this faule vnto the generall Miserie of our nature which was corrupted in our first Parentes God sende you theâ— Grace to resist euill motions And for this which you haue already done Repent and be sory But came it of a certaine wantones or niceues in you that as Childerne craue Dis peece or Dat peece of one and the self same meat or bread Or women loue far-fet and deere bought thinges so you will not be serued but with the Testimonies and Authorities of the firste six hundred yeres of our Lord Truely if it be so you can not loke for the Fauor that childerne and Women haue in their Infirmities Will you haue it then to be attributed vnto lacke of Lerning Or plaine Dulnesse that you are so blinde and blunt as to set at naught the Practise and Euidencies of the Catholike Church for nine hundred yeres togeather It seemeth no because the Opinion vndoubtedlye which your predecessours of late had of their owne Iudgment Knowledge and Wittinesse moued them especially to refuse the Generall and Approued Faith of the world And so I beleue they lacked no wit but only Grace and they were to wise to be Obedient and Faithful How now then Was it any Sprite of Malice or Contention that caused you to rest vpon the first six hundred yeres only that the further you went out of sight you might the more boldly shewe â—oule play Maintaine the quarell Make the victory vncertaine And trouble the lookers on If it be not so we shal easely beleue you if you shew any good Cause or Reason wherefore you haue appealed vnto the first six hundred yeres And so appealed vnto them not as the best time to finde witnesses in but as the only time neither as Preferring those Daies but as Condemning ours But let vs first see the Examples by which your fact and behauioure herein may be Euident And then after we shal the better consider it whether you haue any reason or no to make for you And what by likelihode was the cause which moued you Leontius Bishop of Nicopolis wrot the life of Ioannes Eleemosinari ' an holy man of the first six hundred yeres after Christ. Why should I not beleue Leontius Mary he wrote say you A great while after that And what of that Is S. Bedes History of the cumming of S. Augustine the Monke into England to be discredited because S. Bede began to wryte a great while after S. Augustine was departed this world Or because the next six hundred after Christ were much passed when he wrote it Are the bokes of Genesis in any poynt to be doubted of because they declare the beginning of the world and Actes Dated two thousand yeres before Moyses the wryter of them was borne Yet sayeth M. Iewel against Leontius This one Circumstance of his Latines answeareth the matter wholy And in the margine he geaueth a speciall note M. Harding rangeth without the cumpasse of six hundred yeres Vrbanus Regius a Doctor of Luthers Schoole confesseth in his boke De locis Communibus that in the first Councel of Ephesus an Order was taken for Communion vnder one kinde which he being a Lutherane would neuer haue wryten if he had not found it in some Auncient Record and worthy of credite But Vrbanus Regius say you departed this life not aboue .xx. yeres a goe and therefore is a very yong witnesse to testify a thing done so long time before In deede to testifye it as of certaine sight or knowledge it were hard for so young a witnesse but to testify it as of good Historie and Authoritie it is possyble inough for them which are .xx. yeres younger What shall we thinke of S. Bernard A man not only in his own time of most worthy Estimation and Authoritie but in all the Church euer sence of singular Credite and worthinesse If he were now aliue emong vs And might be seen and heard sensibly would there be found in all the world any man of Honestie or Discretion which considering his Holinesse Wisedome and Grauitie would thinke him A witnesse of litle weight and worthinesse Yet Father Iewel sayeth as though he had bene a Reader of Diuinitie when S. Bernard was yet but A Nouiâ—e in the Faith S. Bernard calleth the washing of feete a Sacrament I graunt But S Bernard was a Doctour but of late yeres and therefore his Authoritie must herein weigh the lesser Was he of so late yeres as Luther Zuinglius Caluine Peter Martir and other Greate Anceters of your new Religion Why dothe not the latenesse of these felowes offend you Why think you the xij C. yeres after Christ to be so farre and wide from his Trueth that no certaintie thereof maye be taken in them And Conclude Determine Protest and Defend that to be Sure and Autentike which riseth xv C. and some odde yeres after Christ Of the like kinde of Imaginacion and Answer it is where you say Lyra and Teâ—tonicus Lyued at the least thirtene hundred yeres after Christe wherefore their Authoritie in this Case must Needes
where I can finde it sometimes within sometimes without the Circle sometimes staÌ„ding nigh sometimes coursing about the field Mary Sir if such Priuileges might be graunted to Warriers it were an easie mater to prolong the Battell and to winne the praise of much manlinesse by spurring cut hither and thither and no mater how For he taketh no care hereof how truly he alleage the Testimonies of these last nine hundred yeres Or how worthie and approued Authors they be whom he alleageth but without exception he taketh all that he findeth and from the highest to the lowest from the Text to the Glose and emong Gloses from the best to the worst of them he Taketh and Draweth and Heapeth against vs Al that may seeme to helpe his Assertions Tel vs therefore I pray you M. Iewel what Equitie or Conscience you folow Will you binde the Catholikes to the first six hundred yeres And wil your selfe argue out of cumpasse May not we vse the worthie Authoritie of Bonifacius because he was Bishop of Rome in the yere of our Lord 680 and will you admit the sayinges and doinges of Luther Zwinglius and Caluine all condemned Persons through the Catholike Church and liuing xv C yeres after Christ S. Bernard you say was A man of late yeres So was Dionisius the Carthusian So were others whom I haue rekened vp in the chapiter before And therefore by your accompt of lesse Authoritie And why then doe you allâ—age not only S. Bernard but Durand Gerson Alexander Lynwod Camotensis Hugo Cardinalis Eckius Aeneas Syluius Erasmus and other I report me to the very margine of your boke by that it will appeere whether you do not stuffe your boke with Canons Constitutions Gloses Histories Interpretations of scripture Testimonies of Fathers Opinions of Scholemen c. such as altogether you scrape out of these last nine C. yeres For which your so doing if you can bring any Reason or shew any Speciall Pryuilege graunted to you against the law of Nature that you might do against an other that which you would not haue done to your selfe either of this vnreasonable Fauor and Licence you must geaue some cause or els you must suffer vs to complaine of it that you dele not with vs Indifferently But it will be thought perchaunse of others that you alleage not y â— later Wryters of any time these nine C. yeres for the Estimation or Credite which you haue them in but only because your Aduersary maketh great Price of them Suppose it were so yet you doe him greate Wronge to put him to Answering of more Witnesses than he should doe by right And to fill your Replie with those mennes sayinges whose Authoritâ—es though he doe not contemne yet he would not haue them to possesse occupie y â— place which more Auncient and worthier Persons should haue And although we think as it becometh vs of s. Bernard s. BonaueÌ„ture S. Denyse c. Yet if you would needes haue vs in Reasoning with you not to passe the Boundes and Terme of vj. C. yeres you shoulde not though we alowed the Persons neuer so much bring any of A lower degree and later age against vs either to stand in the place which S. Hierome S. Ambrose S. Augustine or S. Chrysostome should occupie either to commend that place the better by their Presence which the Auncient Fathers of the Primitiue Church doe furnishe aboundantly by themselues and which also they only should furnishe by your appointement And further I say that if you will not suffer me to take any vantage against you by the testimony of any good Man or wryter of the nine hundred yeres last past it is no equalitie that whther I will or no you should make me to Answer the sayinges which you bring against me out of those yeres whiche you passe not vpon And whereas it shall doe me no good though I proue that S. Bernard for Example in that place which you wil alleage doth not only not hinder but allso further my cause to what purpose should I spend anyetime at all in hearing or examining hys wordes which although I declare to make for me may not be lawfully vsed of me And therefore notwithstanding you iudge truly of vs herein and better of vs than of your self that we the Catholikes doe not refuse the Authoritie of later Fathers and Doctours whom the Church yet neuer condemned or despised Yet this our credite which we haue them in must not serue you for any cause or excuse why ye should bring them furth against vs except we may doe the like against you For as you haue appealed to the first vj. C. yeres thereby to let vs of our Libertie so we doe require you also not to passe that nuÌ„ber or cumpasse of those yeres thereby to cut away your superfluitie And in thus doing we are not weary of the later Doctours of Christendome nor afraid of their Iudgments but we are offended with your vainglorious and very wretched behauioure which will not keepe the law yourselfe that you prescribe vnto other Ther is I graunt A kind of ArgumeÌ„t ad hominem non ad rem to the man not to the mater As to some of our Countrie men at this present and them of the most Perfite and exquisite Trade in folowing of the Gospel if A Catholike doe saye that Father Caluine himself whose Iudgment is much praised in the Congregation was of this mind and was also Zelous in it that they did very ill which gaâ—e to king Harry the viij that he should be head of the Church this argument so taken of his Authoritie that was a Proude and Folishe And Lousie Heretike although it be nothing worth in deede and in that respect not to be vsed of A Catholike Yet to him that accompteth of Caluine as if he had bene one of y e lights of the World y â— Catholike may right wel vse it driue him by force of the Consequence either to deny Caluines Authority which he wil not Or y â— kings supremacy which he dareth not So y â— against him that is addicted to any one Opinion of his own or of other whoÌ„ he buildeth vpon to bring an Argument grounded vpoÌ„ his own Opinion iudgment thereby to make him forsake his own opinion or kepe stil in his memory the Contradiction which inwardly pincheth him It is A kind of Reasoning good and profitable And in this respect if any Catholike were so blinde singular as to set more by the Glose vpon VnaÌ„ SanctaÌ„ Extr. de Maior Obed â–ª than the Commentaries of S. Hierome and S. Chrisostome Or by Durand Gerson Lynwod c. than any of the most Auncient Fathers M. Iewel then might be suffered to argue ad hominem that is to alleage Gloses Scholemen and later Doctours to him that hath A speciall fansie vnto those more than any of the Primitiue Church But now se y â— Inequality
of the Glose as though the text were much more for his purpose For the very Glose saieth he putteth the mater vtterly out of dout Let vs see then first of al what is the Text. Lucius the Pope writing to certaine Bishops which were trobled with heretikes And shewing them where vppon to staie themselues that they might no wauer hither and thither willeth them to solow the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 praise of which thus he saieth 〈◊〉 sancts â—posâ—olica mater omnium Ecclesiarum Christ 〈◊〉 qua per Des Omnipotent is graiaâ—â— a tramite Apostolica traditiones nunquam errass probatur This holy and Apostolike Church is the mother of all churches of christ â—hichs through the Grace of almightie God hath neuer ben proued to haue erred froÌ„ the right trade end pathe of the Tradition of the Apostles Thus saieth Pope Lucius and he maketh expressely for D. Harding as far downeward as Lucius owne Popedome was â—nno Do 258. This conclusion then being certaine by the expresse text of the law what saith the Glose therevpon Doth it folow the text or no If it do not Remember then I praie you M. Iewel your charitable and affectuous wordes to D. Harding O M. Harding It is an old saying Maledicta Glosa quae corrumpit textum Accursed be that Glosing construction or Glose that corruppteth the text RemeÌ„ber wel this old saying forget not yourselfe which bring furth with so great a confidence a Glose that impugneth the text But doth the Glose folow the text If it do be ashamed man then of yourself which doe so Certainely warrant it that the very Glose putteth this mater out of doubt that the See of Rome maie erre in Faith the text it selfe making to the contrarie But of this perchaunce you haue litle regaâ—de how the Glose agreeth or disagreeth with the Text. And where you find your vantage there you are determined to take it hauing a simple and plaine eye neither loking to that which goeth before nor that which foloweth neither that which is of any side of you And so â–ª the Glose saiting that Certaine it is the Pope maie erre that is inough for yâ—u and that putteth the mater vtterly out of doubt that the Churche of Rome may errâ— You are deceaued M. Iewel through your Simplicitie For if you or your â—rindes about you had ben circumspect you woulde neuer haue broughte this Glose surth with such confidence as you haue done It is two thinges to saie The Pope maie erre and the Churche of Rome maie erre The first is graunted 〈◊〉 it maie possibly be that the Pope concerning his owne priuate mynd and opinion maie crre in vnderstanding as IoaÌ„nes 22. dyd or whom soeuer els you can name vnto vs. The second is vtterly denied that the Church of Rome can erre For that presupposeth y â— the Pope should â—e geauen ouer to decret Sette â—â—rth or determine by his Iudicial Sentence some thing contrarie to the Apostolike Faith that it should be receiued beleued in the Church Which absurditie that any error should be suffered in haue credit in that Church which is y â— Mother of al Churches that vnder the gouernement of the holy ghost which coÌ„tinueth with it is the spirit of Trueth becasue it is impossible therfore it is also impossible y â— the Church of Rome should erre in any point of y â— Faith And in such extremities where y â— Pope for his owne person is perswaded in a contrary coÌ„clusion vnto our Faith almighty God that his care ouer the church may be manifest prouideth alwaies to take such persons out of the way when they might if they had liued done harme as he did Ioannes 22. and â–ª Anastasius Now that the Glose faith no more but the Pope may erre which we wil not denie and not that the Churche of Rome may erre which was D. Hardings affirmation by whom shal I better proue it thaÌ„ by y â— glose it self which is a litle before in this very cause 24 q. 1. out of which M Iew. peeked his Certainti y â— out of doubt the See of Rome mai erre In y â— chapiter Quodcunque ligaueris the Glose vpoÌ„ a certaine word there gathereth an ArgumeÌ„t that the sentence of the whole Churche is to be preferred before the church of Rome if thei gainsay it in any point And he coÌ„firmeth it by y â— 93. Distinction Legimus But doth the Glose rest there as M. Iew. Certainly auoucheth it doth it put the mater vtterly out of doubt thâ—â— the church of Rome may erre â–ª Iudge of the mind of the Glosator by y â— words of y â— Glose For thus it foloweth Sed 〈…〉 And for coÌ„firmatioÌ„ of his belief he referreth vs to y â— Chap. 〈◊〉 which foloweth in y â— cause questions Nis faith he erraret Romana Ecclesia quod no credo posâ—e fieri quia Deus noÌ„ mitteret Arg. infra ead c. 4 Rect a c. PudeÌ„â—a Except the church of Rome should erre vvhich I beleue caÌ„not be because God vvould not suffer it As it is proued in the Chapiters folowing which begin A Recta Padenda Consider now Indifferent Reader iudge betwene vs both M. Iew. saith The Glose putteth the mater vtterly out of doubt that y â— Church of Rome may erre because it saith the Pope may err I answer y â— the Glose vpon y â— chapiter a Recta 〈◊〉 it that the Pope may Erre but in the third Chapitâ—â— before Quodâ—â—quâ— ligaueris it beleueth that it can not be that the church of Rome should erre because God vvould not permit it Wherof I gatder that the Pope to erre the Church of Rome to erre are 〈◊〉 pointes that if it be graunted vnto him y â— the Pope in his owne prinaâ— sense may hold an heretical opinioÌ„ yet y â— church of Rome for al y â— cannot erre because God wil not suffer it y â— any thing should be decreed by y â— Pope y â— is coÌ„trary to faith And this is manifest euen by y â— very Glose which M. Iewel trusteth so much y â— he toke y â— mater to be vtterli out of dout when the Glose had once spoken it What is abusing of testimonies if this be not what coÌ„science is there either in preferring of Gloses before y â— text either in expouÌ„ding of Gloses against y â— Text either in setâ—ing of one and the selfe same glose against it self wheras being rightly interpreted it agreeth wel inough w t it self either in obiecting y â— part of y â— glose against y â— Aduersarie which being grauÌ„ted hurteth nothing dissembling or not seing an other part of y â— same glose which clearly coÌ„firmeth y â— purpose of the Aduersarie except the Glose could speake more plainly for D. Harding then it hath don when it saith Credo non posse fieri quia Deus non
And how is that It foloweth Loquitur Dominus ad Peâ—rum c. Our Lord speaketh to Peter I tel thee saith he that thou art Peter and vpon this Peter or Rocâ—e I vvil builde my Church and the gates of hel shâ—lnot ouercome it Vnto the vvil I geue the keyes of the kingdome of Heauens and those thinges that thou shalt bind in earth shal be bouÌ„d in the heauens also and vvhat soeuer thou shalt loose vpon earth shal be loosed also in the Heauens And vnto the same Peter after his 〈…〉 my sheepe By these wordes then it is manifest what is Original Head and Doctrine of our heauenly Maister that is to the forsaking of which Sainct Cyprian imputeth the Proceedinges of the Diuel and of Heresies Uerely no other than that which our Sauiour by the foresaid expresse Scriptures gaue to S. Peter But now heere ariseth a greaâ—â— doubt and question that S. Peter can not wel be the Heade because euery one of the Apostles was as great in Power as he And this in deede is the Argument that M. Iewel maketh out of S. Cyprian against the Supremacie Which if Sainct Cyprian hadde not espied and Answered then should M. Iewel easily be pardoned But now what an intolerable kinde of soule dealing is this to take an Obiection out of an Olde Father and either for Hast. Or Negligence Or Craftines Or Desperatnes to let go the right answer vnto it For concerning the Obiection Sainct Cyprian thus withstandeth it saiyng And although he gaue after his resurrection lyke povver vnto al his Apostles c. yet to declare vnitie he desposed by his Authority the Original of the same vnitie begining of one By the Obiection then it scemeth that no more accompt should be made of S. Peter then of the vest of the Apostles which seuerally was as greate in power as he But by the Aunswere made with this Aduersatiue Tamen Yet it is manifest that notwithstanding the equa litie among y â— Apostles S. Peter yet was y â— First and the Head among them For Christ disposed by his Authoritie saith S. Cyprian the Original not of vnitie as you mangle it M. Iewel but of the same vnitie which vndoubtedly was in the Apostles beginning of one which is S. Peter As in the Sentence folowing more manifestly appeereth to the further opening of S. Cyprians right meaning and your false dealing For the one halfe of the Sentence is this in deede the rest also of the Apostles vvere the same that Peter vvas endevved with like fellovvship honour and povver This half M. Iewel you rest vpon and build your Conclusion that one of them had no more Priuilege than an other And why interpreted you no further Is the sentence or Sense thinke you at an ende when you haue your purpose Doth not S. Cyprian Interpret Correct Amend or Determine it with an Adnersatiue yet saying least any maÌ„ should through his former words set lesse by S. Peter or his Chaire But yet the Original commeth from vâ—itie that the Church may be shevved to be one And what other thing is this to say but that notwithstanding it to be true that the Apostles were endewed with like honour power as S. Peter was yet no manne ought to gather heereof that there was no Order among them Or that one Bishope now hath as large and absolute Authoritie as an other But this rather must folowe that because schismes and Heresies doe grow apase vvhere no Original or Head is sought for or regarded And because it should be perceiued that the Church is One in that it coÌ„sisteth of one Head vnto whome al the rest were they neuer so high or felow like must be refer red therefore Christ by his Authoritie disposed the Original of that vnitie â— endewed S. Peter with a singular Prerogatiue that he shoulde be that One in the Church from whom whosoeuer departed should not be of the Church And note wel the Cause why the beginning must rise of One vt Ecclesia vna monstretur that the Church might be shevved to be one Why Should it not be One though in euery Diocese through the world euery seueral Bishop were Chief therein No surely by S. Cyprian it should not be But in that the Head therof is but one the vnitie of her doth folow necessarily How doth it folow Mary Whosoeuer holdeth not with this Head he is not in the Church and so must none remaine within her but the Catholike obedieÌ„t Christians How caÌ„ they but agree then al in one Head if they mind to coÌ„tinue in y â— Church wheras y â— departure from hâ—m is to take an other Church bisides that whose special marke is Vnitie in one Head This conclusion then standing that S. Peter was set by the Autoritie of Christ in the first place was that no special Priuilege trow you Or was he First to that intent oÌ„ly that in reckening vp the Apostles men should know where to begin Or that in their meetings together he should sitte first Or speake first Or subscribe first How simple things are these for the wisedome of God to think of And how litle auailable to the preseruing of the Churche in Unitie if no further Preeminence were geuen him And againe if the B. of Romes authoritie now as S. Peters was then were of no more force yet beeing of so much if other would sit before him Or speake before him in any Councel should they not be Offenders against the ordinance of God How can it be otherwise whereas he appointed by his Authoritie the Original of Vnitie to begin of One Suppose then that some one transgresseth this order who shal reproue him If none how vnreasonable is it to set a law and not to include therby an authority to punish the transgressor of the Law If any who more worthy of that Office then the Chief Bishope Ergo there was in S. Peter a proper Authoritie ioyned to that dignitie of his first place which M. Ie. grauÌ„teth vnto him by which he had power to coÌ„troll them y â— should or wold â—esist that Primacie of his in how smal thing so euer it consisted And if there were such Authority Ergo some special Pâ—â—â—lege of Binding or Losing which no other of the Apostles had Except ye wil be so mad as to thinke that in coÌ„trolling of a fault committed against any Excellent Person his Inferiour should be Iudge in the mater and bind or loose at his wil or discretion I leaue it therefore as most manifest that notwithstanding the Apostles were equal in felowshipp of honour and power â–ª with S. Peter yet the Original of 〈◊〉 was appointed by our Saluiour himselfe to begin of S. Peter only and none other And this his preeminence make you it as litle as you can requiring A Proportional Authoritie to be graunted vnto him for the defense therof against al disdaine or disobedience that might be procured or
seeme the lesse No remedy M. Iewel hath so appointed Againe Bessarions Authoritie in this case can not seeme greate bothe for other sundry causes which you leaue And Also which must needes be a good cause and not forgoten for that he liued at the least fourtene hundred yeres after Christ. And againe Pope Nicolas was the second Bishop in Rome after Pope Iohane the Woman Note here that Other men recken from S. Peter downeward this man compteth from Pope Iohane An English woman as the reporter of the tale sayth borne at Magunce in Germany Which was almost nine hundred yeres after Christ. Wherfore his Authoritie might well haue bene spared Thus we see then by manifest Examples the exact Accompt that you make of the first six hundred yeres after Christ As though the whole Truthe of A mater were lost if it come to knowledge any long time after the thing was done Let vs consider now Whether any honest Cause and Reason may be alleaged for your so doing Or whether you did it without cause Or els were sturred vp with some vnlawfull Affection and Reproâ—eable Cause And here now take no skorne M. Iewel if I appose you in a few Questions For either you be hable to Answer them and that shall be to your worship either not Answering them you shall occasyon Trueth therby to be knowen And that shall be to Gods glorie and the Cumfort of the doubtfull Surely if it were to my selfe and if so much might be obtained that I should be Answered in some One thing thoroughly and be bid to choose out of all that which I haue to demaunde that One thing which seemeth strongest agaynst my Aduersary and surest of the Catholikes I would be glad of the Occasion and all other maters quite and cleane put to Silence I would speake of these fewe poyntes which folow And either wythout more wordes holde my peace If in them I were satisfied Or requâ—re that our Aduersaries neuer trouble their hearers or Readers any further with other conclusions before these fâ—we questions were Answered Therefore I pray the Indifferent Reader to consider thys plaâ—e which foloweth though thou Reade no more of all the Booke First I aske of you M Iewel whether you haue any Faith at all or no If you haue none what meddle you with any Religion except it be for Ciuil Policie sake For which to doe as you doe though it would proue you lesse mad or vnreasonable yet should you be for lacke of Faith as deade in soule and as Godlesse as any Infidel in al the world If ye haue any how came you by it for we are not borne Christians but Regenerate neither doe we receiue faith by Nature but by Teaching And faith is by hearing sayeth the Apostle Of whome then haue you heard and lerned your Faith Of them that liued and died before you were borne Or of such as preached and taught in the world sens your selfe were of remembrance If you lerned of the first how could they teache without A tongue Or how could you heare without an care For they were now deade in body and cleane dissolued and you were not yet made of body and soule nor had any instruments of senses If you lerned of the Quicke and Liuing your self also quicke and liuing were those your Teachers of such Authoritie with you that you submitted your senses and vnderstanding to theyr iudgment Or examined you by your selfe their Doctrine and Sayinges If you the Scholer did iudge of the Master you were without all doubt a Malapert and Folishe Scholer Malapert because you would breake order and proudly goe before him whome you ought meekly to haue folowed And Folishe because in maters of Faith of which we now speake all Wit and Reason of man is altogeather vnworthy and vnable to Iudge of that which is Proponed If you then folowed their Authoritie and submitted your vnderstanding and will vnto their Doctrine without Mouing or Mistrusting any doubt about it VVhat were they in all the world vnto whome you gaue such credite I aske you not this question for the time of your Childhode in which though true Faith be Habitually in them that are Baptised yet there is not that Discretion or Consideration by which they may returne their mindes vpon theyr ownâ— actes Or put a difference betwene their GraÌ„dmothers tale of Bloudy bone Raw head Bloudelesse and Ware woulf and the Churches Doctrine of Hell and the Deuill But I speake now as to one that hath Understanding and knowledge of his owne state And Experience of many thinges And Lerning inough for the purpose And such a one whose part and profession it is to be able to geaue a good Cause and Reason for the Faith and Religion which he foloweth Of you therefore I aske what Authority that was Or is which moued you to be and continue A Christian Here you must not say vnto me that you considered the wrytinges of the Fathers of the first six hundred yeres And that you gaue your minde to Reading of the Scriptures c. For what so euer such tale yoâ— tell me it will alwaies remaine to be Answered of you what Instruction or Authoritie that was which either Taught you Or 〈◊〉 you to esteeme those Auncient Doctors of the Christian Religion Or these Scriptures of which you make your self so certaine For by your selfe you could no more know the difference betwene Writers and Writers or true Scriptures and lying Fables than A Blinde man caÌ„ iudge of Colours Or a Stranger know the right way in A Wildernesse or he Rede that knoweth no letter on the booke You are not I am sure wiser thaÌ„ S. Augu. Neither haue you better thought vpoÌ„ these maters than he did He saith of himself y â— concerning the Faith which he had in Christ. He savv himselfe to haue beleued none but the established opinion of Peoples Nations and the very Common and renoumed Fame of him Than which cause if you can geue any better it is time y â— you shew it As for vs neither we finde any like And we neede not be ashamed to be perswaded by it which moued S. Augustine him selfe to come vnto Christ. And I think verely that neither you studying neuer so much for it can bring any so perswasible a Reason why you beleued Christ as this is that So many Nations and peoples of the world doe beare witnesse to him For this is so Great and so Stronge to induce vs into Faith that we should not now be desirous of visible Miracles for Prouing Or Confirming of it S. Augâ—stine moste wisely and Reasonably warning vs Quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit magnum est ipse prodigium Qui MVNDO CREDENTE non credit VVho so euer doth yet seeke after Straunge and vvonderfull thinges to make him beleue he is himselfe a straunge felovv or Greate
hard to his charge and there was but two poore places betweene me and the victorie which although he hath ouer me yet it shal not be saied that I lost it easely and he shal not crake or triumph that he came lightly by it Confer now this Example with M. Iewels forsaied wordes The place is before thee and being so plaine as it is it greueth me to spend time in Repeâ—ing and Applying it But M. Iewel goeth further he will not leaue so much as one yeres vantage to D. Harding For If Marianus Scotus accompt be true Note here that you know not your selfe what to answer absolutely then M. Harding reserueth not one yere to himself but yeldeth me backe altogeather Goe to M. Iewel be it so Let D. Harding geaue â—uer all other vantage and let it be supposed which yet is most false that he had brought nothing for the profe of the Publike Seruice in the Uulgare Tonge biside this Historye of S. Augustines planting the Christian Religion in England Thus much only then is concluded y â— iust in the vj. C. yere after Christ what so euer it was before The Publike Seruice was in some place in such a tongue as the vulgare people did not vnderstande And what now shall we say to it Where is the Uictorye On your side or D. Harding But first it would be knowen whether you at the beginning did take the vj. C. yeres Exclusiue or Inclusiue And whether you meant that if to the last day of the six hundred yere any thing should be founde against you you would subscribe Or els that if your Aduersaries Reason were not of an higher Date than the first day of the last yere of the vj. hundred you would vtterly refuse it Well how so euer it be it seemeth now that it is but a deade victorie Or a Stale and that he which will checke M. Iewel must begin againe If Marianus Scotus accompt be true â–ª c. As on the other side if it be false then is he ouercummed by four pore yeres yet as he termeth theÌ„ But consider now Indifferent Reader whether this be manly Dealing or no To refuse the Authoritie that is at this present in the world To set light by the Practise and Iudgement of the Church for ix hundred yeres space To pare euery thing so precisely by the firste six hundred yeres that If it be but a daie longer it must be cut awaie And if it be a few yeres shorter it must be the lesse estemed And if it answer iustly with the yere it self it weigheth in no side What Reason hath M. Iewel or what Example and Scripture for him Is the Truthe of God bound to the first six hundred yeres And must it not passe that cumpasse which M. Iewel hath apointed vnto it Is God a God of six hundred yeres only and not of all time and all worldes Was the Holyghost promised to tary with vs til vj. C. yeres were come and gone and not to the end of the world The kingdome of Christ which should be euerlasting and his power which should not be takeÌ„ awai must it be interpreted now to haue theyr full terme out in vj. C. yeres only What Grace haue the first vj. C Or what curse of God haue these last .ix. C. yeres Now know you also when the first vj. C. ended Or what trust haue you in them which number the yeres vnto you Some Historiographers recken one way Other recken an other way What certaintie then can you haue of theÌ„ Again those writers whome you folow either do at this present liue Or he commended vnto you by them that now line And how dare you trust either those that nowe liue and write of thinges so long sens past Or those that a greate while sens are deade your selfe not then borne to liue with them and examine their doinges Consider also how many haue wryten within the space of these last nine huÌ„dred yeres how perfite in life how Excellent in knowledge how Painfull in studies how Worthy in their owne dayes How Famous with the Posteritie How mete witnesses in the cause of God and triall of a Pure and holy Religion Abbates Monkes Friers are in these new Gospelling dayes termes of great shame and Ignominie yet what sayeth and honest Protestant against S. Bernard Rupertus Thomas Aquinas Bonauenture Dionysius the Carthusian and other such Can M. Iewel finde any fault in theyr life by any Report of brute or Fame Or any Irreligiousnes in their bookes and wrytinges which are extant for hym to consider Let him say his worst Let him leaue poring in Gloses of no Authoritie to finde some mad thing or other against the wisedome of the Church And let him confer his leisure to Reading or Examining rather of these Witnesse according to the State he taketh vpon him whose sayinges he knoweth we esteeme as we ought to doe O sayeth he these were of late daies I graunt â–ª And not only that but also and you will that they were in euyll and corrupt daies But were they corrupted in them Did they not write against corrupt liuing Did they suffer new Preachers and Apostolikes to goe out of the Church or come against y e church by their euil Doctrine Or did they communicate with Pope Cardinals Bishops Abbots or any other of all the world in their liuing Seing they neither fâ—ared hatred nor curred Fauour why should not their Testimonie be receiued no other exception being brought against them but that they liued in so late daies or such A world All is Ungodly All is Unreasonable All is Uaineglorious to appeale to the times so long past As though that God at this present had not his Church in the world Or as though ye could well folow any other but such as you heare with our owne eares Or as though the good and Lerned men of these Later yeres departed this world hundred of yeres sens were not as nigh to the first six hundred yeres as ye are and as ready to folow the best waie as ye Or as though it were A Ioly mater and a compendious waie to the Gospell to contempne all Christendome that now is and holde with that Christendome that was almoste a thousand yeres sens not knowing yet what Christianitie meaneth Nor Daring to trust it if ye knew it were it not for the Authoritie which is at this present in Christendome the Greatnesse of which hath moued you to beleue what so euer you beleue vpon any good ground Here therfore M. Iewel defend your doinges And shew vs the cause wherefore you doe or should refuse the Testimonie of the last ix hundred yeres which are against you If it be not for Childeshnesse or Wantonesse or Unsensiblenesse that you will none of so many and so graue Witnesses yet except you alleage some honest cause and reason It will remayne I beleue that you doe it vpon a very blinde Stomake and
together before Erasmus was borne and of whome you can find no one which hath denied the Dionisius of whom we speake to be S. Paules scholer And I can name some vnto you which haue not only beleued it but for reuerence and worthines of him haue geuen light to his bokes by their Commentaries But consider you M. Iewel in this place whether it be not most true in you that you seeke alwaies how to Destroye or Diminishe all thinges as much as ye can For if there be no false Doctrine in these â—okes nor any thing contrarye to good maners what should it hurt you or your cause to haue men beleue that they be the workes of that Dyonisius which was S. Paules scholar And because you shall see my meaning in an other Example as also haue it noted vnto you that Erasmus whom in disgracing of S. Denyse you bring in as A graue and lerned man is better interteined of you than he deserueth I say Before Erasmâ—s more bold surely than wise in that poynt before he began to play the Censor and by once reading of A Boke ouer to gather A priuate couÌ„cel within his owne heade and geaue A Definitiue sentence against auncient fathers workes or els for them before I say he toke so much vpon him and exequuted it not alwaies discreetly the boke ad Quirinum was embraced as S. Cyprians Erasmus yet putteth the mater in question and after great argumeÌ„ts made Pro et Con w tin himself his finall answer is that probabilius videtur non esse Cypriani it seemeth more probable that it is not S. Cyprians Wel M. Doctor and Censor S. Hierome is witnesse that it is and vseth A Chapiter thereof as an Authoritye of S. Cyprians wherefore you may perceaue that either you haue not seen al thinges either haue not remembred them Or els that your iudgment is not all of the best But let this passe that S. Hierome is directly against you was there any thing in the Boke ad Quirinum hurtful either to Faith or good Maners No verely you find no such fault in the boke Why Disputed you then whether it were S. Cyprians or no And if for your exercise sake you would needes moue the doubt you should better haue inuented an Answer against the Obiection which did hinder the Estimation of it than by needlesse making of it minister any Occasion vnto your Reader to set lesse by such a worke as by much crediting of which he could take no harme For suppose it so that being not S. Cyprians in deede I so loue and Reade the boke as if it were his what daunger hereby is cumming vnto me the Boke being Sound and good whyche I doe Reade But now on the other side the Boke being tried to be S. CypriaÌ„s or if it should not be so tried yet in trueth â–ª being hys yourselfe first doe hurt your owne Fame and Estimation in geauing so rashe A sentence And you cause me to haue leâ—sse mind vnto a good boke and to Suspect that which should not be distrusted So that in letting the titles of Bokes alone as we found them though they shoulde by putting the case so bear false names there is no Iniury done or taken if the booke be alowable but in Changing or Disgracing them when it needeth not for any harme which is to be feared in Reading of the boke it lacketh not a peece of vaine Glorie Or of angry Foly As in our case now M. Iewel of the Boke de Ecelesiastica Hierarchia you tell vs that it is Iudged of such men as neyther you nor we make greate accompt vpon that it can not be the boke of Ariopagita S. Paules disciple that is mentioned in the Actes But to what end tell you me so Is the boke to be Credited or no tell me that Is there any Heresy in it Is there any Irreligion Is there any Folie Is there any thing that you can contemne Or forbid to be readen I can not so thinke of you whereas yourselfe confesse it that the Author of the forsaid boke was An Auncient writer as it may many waies well appeare To what purpose then is it that you â—each vs that he can not be Ariopagita S. Paules disciple For If he be an Auncient and â—â—rthy writer though he should not be so old as an Apostles Scholer what is thaâ— to vs which seke after auncieâ—tnes in writers such as may suppres with graue countenaunce the lusty and high lokes of youthful Scriblers and not such as must be so old that there may not wel be A Superior And if by your owne confession the Author be Auncâ—eÌ„t though his name be not Dionisius Ariopagita what is that to the disproâ—e of the mater which we defend by him Did you thinke M. Iewel by wryring your mind in this fashion not to hinder in any respect the credite of the forsaide boke but only to shew a point of your knowledge And how that you wer not Ignorant what Erasmus Iohn Colet and others I caÌ„ not tel who thought in this mater Uanitie M. Iewel vanitie to make your own Fame the end of your doinges w tout any profit to your reader But said you so much as you haue don that the boke might be disgraced that some Scruple might be cast in the Readers way to trouble him only y â— he shuld not quietly assent vnto y â— contents therof And how can you theÌ„ excuse yourself of blind Foly and Contentiousnesse For whereas S. Denyse the Ariopagite is not he alone that must be credited but euery Auncient writer whome you doe alowe for auncient may well staÌ„d for a witnesse what wiseman would euer enterprise to diminish the Estimation of A Substantiall witnesse by casting in against him of his owne or other mennes Suspition that in some Corners he hath an other name than generally he is taken by And whereas it helpeth your cause nothing at all though Dyonisius Ariopagita were not Author of the boke de Eccles. Hierarch so y â— you deny him not to be an Auncient and credible wiâ—nesse who but Unquiet and Contentioâ—s would labour to make A question about it Surely M. Iewel if you were not more desirous of marring than making and of contrarying your aduersary than agreeing with Reason you should allwaies folowe the more Peaceable and Harmelesse Opinion And whereas you might know that for One Erasmus and Iohn Colet there haue ben in these laste thousand yeres a thousand Lerned men which haue taken S. Denyse the Ariopagite for the Author of the foresaid Boke what Quiet and Good nature would incline to the worse of the two and thynk that more probable which tendeth to the Disgracing so much as it is of a Diuine Excellent peece of worke But if there be no Remedy kepe yourself in your Trade of mistrusting Denying Spoiling the Monumentes of the Catholike and True
which forgette themselues to be Christians and in whose â—ares nothing standeth so much as Obey the higher povvers obey the King as the chief which is by the interpretation of blinde Gospellers and Flatterers that euery Prince is for his own Countrie Suprem vnder God in al maters both Ecclesiastical and Temporal such Emperours woulde not onely haue contemned the sentences of Priestes in comparison of their Maiesties Iudgement but also haue punished such as would signifie it by neuer so smal a token that the Emperour can not wel be Supreme Iudge in maters Ecclesiasticall But The Christian Emperoure durst nâ—t receiue their the Donatistes Seditiâ—usâ— and decâ—itful â—â—mplaintes in such sorte as that him self â—â—vâ—uld iudge of the sentence of the Bishopes that sate at Rome but he apointed as I haue said â—ther bishâ—pes And that for the causes aboue mentioned which were the frovvardnes and the Impudencie of the Donaâ—istes A quibuâ— tamen illiad ipsum rursum Imperaâ—orem prouocare maluerunt From â—vhich Bisshoppes for al that they châ—se to prouoke againe to the Emperour And what saied he vnto them Forsoothe he Iudged Câ—cilianum Innâ—centissimum illos improbissimos Caecilian to be most Innocent â–ª and them most vvicked Yea but you will Replie did not the Emperour 〈◊〉 Iudge vppon the mater when it had been twise before 〈◊〉 to Bishoppes True it is in deede that you saie But consider that they were Heretiques which appealed from Bysshoppes to the Emperour and that although he heard their Cause yet he detested their Contentiousnesse and thought also before vpon it to aske pardone of the Bisshoppes for medling in the matter after them For thus it foloweth in Sainct Augustine Qua in re illos quem admodum detâ—stetur audistis Atque Vtinam saltem ipsiâ—â— Iudicio insanissimis animositatibus suis finem posuissent Atque vt eis ipse cessit vt de illâ— causa post Episcopos iâ—dicaret à Sanctis Anâ—istâ—â—ibus postea veniam petiturus dum tamen illi quod vlterius dicerâ—nt non haberent s 〈◊〉 eius sententiae non obtemperarent ad queâ— ipsi proâ—ocauerunt sic illi aliquandâ— cederent Veritati In vvhich thing that they appealed vnto him after they had been with two seueral Iudges of the Clergie hovv he detested them you haue heard And Vvould God they had made an ende of their most â—utragious stomaking of the mater if it had ben for no more then for his sentence sake And as he the Emperour yelded vnto them to iudge of that cause after the Byshopes minâ—ing to askâ— pardâ—nâ— aftervvarde of the holy Bishoppes 〈◊〉 that they the Donatistes â—hould nâ—t han◠〈◊〉 say further if they vvould not obey his seâ—tence vnto vvhom they appealed So vvould God that they once yet vvould yeelde vnto the truth Consider now indifferently with me vpon this whole mater gentle Reader And this appealing of the Donatists vnto the Emperour and his hearing of the whole cause being not once or twise but very oft alleged by M. Iew. it is worth while to be wel remembred that which I haue already said that which by occasion hereof may be further gathered and wel be noted See then first what busie Heretikes these Donatistes were and how ful they were of Shiftes and Quarels making From the Emperour to Rome From Rome they go to the Emperour againe From him then by appointement and agreement they goe to Arls and the Bisshops there And froÌ„ Arls they returne with complaint to the Emperour yet againe At last the Emperour himself heareth y â— cause yet would they not stand to the Emperours sentence but mainteined stil their false Bishope whom to put in the See of Carthage they thruste out Cecilian and they continued stil in their heresie accompting al the Christians of y â— world accursed which were not of the syde of Donatus Such is the nature and practise of Heretikes they pretend conscience they commend holy and Auncient Fathers They appeale to the Primitiue Church They craue for General Councels for free disputations for surcease of Inquisition for Seruice in the vulgar tongue for Commâ—â—â—on in both kindes and other such thiâ—ges moe If the Princes 〈◊〉 resist them in any point straite waies they make exclamations they sturre vp angers â—hey complaine of sentence geauen vpon them before they be heard of the lack of ghostly coÌ„solation which should come to the people by vnderstanding of Scriptures and receiuing the Sacramentes of the penalties of lawes and Statutes What is it so litle thâ—t they wil not murmur against if they maie not haue their fâ—l wil â–ª In respect then of peace and publike tranquilitie â–ª if you wil not striue w t them vpoÌ„ materâ— indifferent but dispense with them in theyr requestes or demaundes yet will they not suffer the Catholikes to be in rest And if you put them out of feare of the Inquisition they wil troble yet the whole Countrie with preaching in the open field And if you prouide a General Councel to satisfie them they will not come at it if at euery masse there should be Communicantes they wil not alow the Sacrifice And when the Prince is made by them the Supreme Gouernour vnder God â–ª in any countrie yet wil they stoutly disobey y â— prince in a smal mater of wearing a 〈◊〉 gowne cap. So y â— al y â— they doe is 〈◊〉 to mainteine talke and finde alwaies somewhat in whiche they maie occupie the Catholikes vntil that at length when theyr power is so greate that they â—are meete in field with their Aduersaries they maie boldely and dâ—sperately leaue al reasoning conferring Applealing demaunding protesting and Lawleying and with open face comâ— against the Catholikes Pull downe Churches 〈◊〉 officies Take awaie Sacramentes Alter the staâ—e of common weales hang draw and quarter Priestes Set Inquisition againste Catholikes And confirme their Gospel by terrour These and suche like thinges we in our daies see by experience Constantinus the Emperour dyd not see so much Yet fearing the busie nature of Schysmatykes and hoping by faire demeanes to bring the Donatistes to a peace with al Christendome he yelded as much vnto them as he could and as ye haue heard he receiued theyr prouoking to hym not because he thought that hym selfe was the chiefest Iudge in all the world euen in maters Ecclesiastical but because he hoped in yelding vnto the Donatistes in al their requestes aboute apointynge or changing of y â— Iudges to bring them at length vnto suche a remembrance of themselues that they should cease for shame to make any further brable about that in which by euery Iudge that dyd heare the cause they were condemned Now if at those daies either the wyse and lerned aboute hym or he hymselfe had beleued the hearing of causes Ecclesiastical to belong vnto his court or consistorie what needed hym to boroweâ— point of the law to accompte vpon askyng of pardon of the Bishopes for his meddling with that
must be vsed necessarily one Restriction at the least of the lawes Generalitie Wherefore then doth M. Iewel so lyke dodger come in with such Rules as deceaue the simple Reader and fil his papers to no purpose Wherefore maketh he Obiections which he knoweth to haue casie answer Or why hath he no care by what meanes he bringeth his maters to passe so that for the present he say somewhat to his Aduersarie Upon confidence of these general Rules which at the first feeme reasonable he carieth the Readers away with him into blinde knowledge maineteyning his owne heresies and their errours by the superficial wordes of the Ciuile Law either not atteiuing to the sense thereof Or quite leauing it And this wil I proue by a manifest example so much the more willingly because I shal haue in the end a further Occasion to shew an other limitation vnto this rule which M. Iewel would haue to be taken Generally D. Harding alleaged out of an Edice of Iustinians this euident place for the Supremacie of the B. of Rome Sancimus c. Vve ordeine according to the determinations of the Canons that the most holy Pope of the Elder Rome be â—ormost and chief of al Bishopes But it is worth the marking to heare how Iustinian bringeth in these words Vve Decree saith he that the holy Ecclesiastical Rules vvhich haue ben set forth and established of the foure Councels of Nice Coustantinople Ephesus and Chalcedone shal stand in stede of Lavves For vve receiue the Decrees of the foure Synodes as the â—oly Scâ—â—â—res and the Rules of them vvcâ—h serue as Lavves And therfore vve ordeine according the determinatoions of them that the most holy Pope of the Elder Rome shal be formost and Chiefe of al Priesâ—es Now vnto this so â—laine an ArgumeÌ„t for y â— Supremacie what Answereth M. Iewel Forsothe The Emperour lustinian had a special inclinatioÌ„ to the Citie of CoÌ„stantinople for that it was now gro weÌ„ in welth puissaÌ„ce c And for that it was as he saâ—th Mater pictatis nostrae the Mother of his Maiestie Wel â–ª here is some cause why he should fauour the Citie of Constantinople but what is this to Rome It foloweth For like Consideration the Emperour gaue out this special Priuilege vpoÌ„ which D Harding groundeth his Argument in fauour of the See of Rome Let this also be graâ—nted that he fauoured Rome as wel as CoÌ„stantinople But what reason can ye shew wherefore hâ— should prefer it vefore CoÌ„stantinople and sâ—t Rome in the first degree place and Constantinople in the next For by al likelyhod Constantinople being the place where he kept his court to which most resorte was made concerning maters of the Empire if the geuing of Prinilegies vnto See and Bishops had depeÌ„ded of his fauour only he would haue honored first of al the Patriarche of his Chief and Imperial Citie But is it not a manifest lie that the Emperour gaue the Chiefdom to the B. of Rome vpon a special inclinatioÌ„ which he had to y â— Citie Consider the wordes of his Edice What are they Vve Ordeinâ— saith the Emperour according â—o the determination of the CanoÌ„s that the Pope of Rome be Chief of al Priesetes He folowed then the Law of the first foure general Councels not his own InclinatioÌ„ And he honored y â— See of Rome with his Edict not because he fauored Rome in his special aâ—â—ectioÌ„ aboue al other Sees but because y â— former CouÌ„cels which he regarded as y â— Scriptures themselues as inuiolable lawes had so decreed determined y â— the B. of Rome should be Primus First or Chief of al Priestes How impudeÌ„tly then doth M. Iew. abuse y â— Emperors edict by making y â— to be y â— chief cause therof which in dede was not the cause But let him go forward And by the way least any errour happen to grow of this woorde Papa it behoueth thee Good Reader to vnderstand that Papa in olde times in the Grek tong signified a Father c. And further in S. Augustines time before the same name was geuen generally to al Bishopes c. You say truely and you proue it excedingly and if ye would be rather called Pope Iewel then Bishope Iewel be it at your owne choyse and your friendes most wise But returnem I pray you againe into the way and Aunswere the Edict of Iustinian But to returne to the mater M. Harding may not of euery thing that he readeth conclude what he listeth If he doe you can with fewer Circumstancies tel him of it But Primus â—mnium Sacerdotum â–ª is in English the First and Chiefe of al Priestes And he which hath so much geuen vnto him by General Councels of the Primitue church he is higher I trow then any of his Felowes And therefore it is much looked for that you should Answere directly to the Priuilege This Priuilege graunted vnto the Bisshop of Rome to be the First of al Priestes was not to beare the whole sway and to ouer rule al the world Ye speake like a man that were offended with tyranny and ye speake of ouer ruling But we thinke not that as the chief emong the Brothers when he hath gotten Hugonoâ—es Guses Loiterers Lutherans Caluinistes Anabaptistes and other diuine felowes inough aboute him then he beginnneth to ouer rule and ouer run the Countrie by spoiling of Churches killing of Religious persons rauishing of holy Uirgins and doing of other feates of your Gospel so the Pope may set and let pul in plucke out kil and saue and do what him listeth vpon a Furie or Brauerie but that power onely we require to be geauen him which they acknowleged that determined him to be First or Chiefe of al Priestes And we aske you of his Power that he hath to rule ouer al the world and not of ouer rule al the world For although y â— places to which his Iâ—risdiction extendeth it selfe are not limited yet his power to rule them is limited and he that ouer ruleth any one Countrie be it neuer so much his owne doth more then he ought to do by that which is ouer measure and Rule Leauing therfore to presse vs w t your odious slauÌ„dcrous termes as though any Catholike were of y â— opinion y â— the Pope might or should play y â— part of a Tyran care for no law nor reson but ouer rule al the world and beare the whole sway in the world Answer to y â— Authoritie of Iustiniaus Edict shew wherin was the Priuilege graunted vnto the Bishope of Rome It was not you say to ouer rule al the world But onely in General meetinges and Councels to sitte in place aboue al others and for auoiding of Confusion to directe and order them in their doinges How proue you this And remember that you must proue that the Priuilege graunted
is not the voice that souÌ„deth in the eares of God but the â—artines and denotioÌ„ of mind For so they shal not laugh the Bishops and ministers of the church to scorn if perchaunce they shel perceiue them to cal vpoÌ„ God either vvith barbarouse and incongrae Latine or els not to vnderstand the vvords that they speak either to point them out of order To such therfore S. Austine directeth his talke in y â— place maketh no exhortatioÌ„ at al to Priestes to learne their latine tongue better And why should M. Iew. dissemble y â— true persons of whom s. Augustine there speaketh I wil tel you There is not a place more plainer than this if it be considered to proue y â— it was not thought in S. Augustines time so necessary a mâ—tâ—r that al thinges in the Churche should be donne in a knowen Tongue as now it is auouched to be For if the Publike Seruice was euerie where executed at that tyme in the vulgar Tongue or in a knoweÌ„ one to the common people although it were not their vulgar how is it possible that the Bishopes themselues should be to seeking in the right pronouncing pointing and vnderstanding of that whiche they openly said in the Church The Syr Iohn Lacklatines of which there is much speaking among the brothers they haue ben such an occasion of ruine and perdition to the worldly wise as none hath ben greater For the euil life of Priestes although it be A greate Argument vnto them that the Religion is not effectual which hath such holy ons in it yet whiles they see in euerie kinde of Protestation or Confession many such to be found of whoÌ„ they may wel inough be ashamed they temper their Iudgement and wil not vtterly condemne a Religion for this cause only that some Professours thereof be wicked But when they see Publike Seruice to be saied of them which vnderstand it not and for them which are also as ignorant this seemeth to be so absurde that they can not conceaue howe the Spirite of God should directe their doeinges which see and suffer yea and defend that Publike Seruice maie be done in a tong which the vulgar people doe not vnderstand And in this point they are so much the more vehement because they see how all the new Gospellers folow a contrary waie and vse no lerned Tounge at all in their Ordinary Seruice but the vulgar and knowen Tounge of the Countrie where they pitch So that the Protestantes are compted herein to worke so sincerely to speake so reasonably and to chalenge so inuincibly that thousandes of the worldly wise whiles they stand in their owne iudgement fal in deede into euerlasting perâ—ition by the iudgement of the blessed and lerned Fathers For if al thinges must be don in the Church so as the people do vnderstand what is praied how should that case euer be heard of in the Primitiue Churche where some Bishoppes vnderstode not what they praied in the open Church Maie we think that any of them vnderstoode not the vulgare speache of his couÌ„trie That is verie incredible because vnto the high office of Ruling and teaching the whole People he should not be chosen which could not wel be vnderstanded of the people But maie we rather thinke that the publike Seruice was in a lerned toung sometymes not perfitly knowen of the Bishope himselfe like as vnto the vulgar people it was not knowen Of this there is no doubt Because in praieng to God deuotion and not eloquntion is required and because he might haue a good grace of preaching in his natural tongue vnto the people which yet had very simple vnderstanding of any Greeke or latine writinges And because it is plaine by S. Augustine that some such were in his tyme. How then you wil saie is Ignorance in a Bishope to be suffered I say not so neither on the other side I thinke that al is marred except euery man woman and childe maie haue the Bible in the vulgar Tounge Or that no Tounge is to be suffered in the Church of God but that which is the common and knowen tounge of the Countrie But as there is a difference betwene wincking and staring so is there a discreation and iudgement to be vsed in this mater of Tounges of which we speake And S. Augustine aloweth it not that a Bishope should not vnderstand the Latin tounge in which he praieth neither yet doth he crie out against that lacke of theirs requiring that al Publike Seruice should straitwaies be in the vulgare Tounge For after he had told it how some Bishopes praie in false and barbarouse Latine and vnderstaÌ„d not what they praie he addeth further least you should think hym to alowe Ignorance and saieth Non quia ista mâ—â—me corrigenda sint vt populus ad id quod plane intelligit dicat Amen I would that the freshe and trym Scholers comming lately from their EloqueÌ„t Lessons should not laugh y â— Bishops to skorne which speake in their praiers false Latin not because these thinges vvere not to be amended in the Bishopes to the entent the people might ansvver Amen to that vvhich they clerelie vnderstand as who should say I alow not their lacke of knowledge And it were wel that they dyd so speake as the people vnderstand them Sed tamen pie toleranda sunt ab eis qui didicerunt vt sono in soro sic voto in ecclesia benedici but yet these lackes are charitably to be borne vvithal of them vvhich haue lerned that as thinges are vvel said in court before Iudges by sounde of voice so are they vvel saied in the Church by vovve of minde Of which wordes I gather that as he would wishe it better y â— the Bishops Priestes of the Church should so speak as the people might vnderstand yet he would not haue the Seruice of the church vtterly chaunged from the Latine tonge not vnderstanded to the vulgar tounge which nor Priest nor peole could be ignorant of But euen those waÌ„tes of some Bishopes and Priestes in the true Reading Pointing and Understanding of their Publike Praiers he would to be charitably borne and suffered vpon this consideration that although in the eares of men their wordes sound not plaine and good yet in y â— sight of God the good affection of their harte is alowed Now if S. Augustine had ben of the Protestantes mind he would not haue takeÌ„ the mater so quietly but with great Stomake would haue said awaie with this murmuring of praiers not vnderstanded awaie with this Latine and Strange tounge which the Priest hymselfe knoweth not what it meaneth Awaie with this lip labour Let vs haue the Bible turned into the vulgar tounge let euery man come to the Church and singe Psalmes to the Lord let the people vnderstand what is said let vs do as the Apostle commaundeth vs let vs speake with tounges and so furth with a great tale out
S. Bregorie or Iustinian ye folow both and ye are contrary vnto your selfe at one time defying the Title at an other alleaging it Certainly Balaam notwithstanding he were a False Prophete yet he opened his mouth and Blessed the people of God Cayphas although he were a wicked Bisshop yet he pphesied and spake the truth A Seale although it be cast in Leade yet it geaueth a perfite Printe The Scribes and Phariâ—eis although they were Hypocrites and liued not wel yet they instructed the Congregation and saied wel By these Examples then it appeareth that A Doctrine is not to be forsaken because of the euil lyfe of the Preacher What faulte then is Doctour Harding in for saying that Be the Bishoppe of Romes lyfe neuer so wicked yet may we not seuer our selues from the Churche of Rome For if other causes be alleaged wherefore we should do it they are to be Aunswered but this Obiection of the euil lyfe of the Bishoppes of Rome is sufficiently confuted by these Examples which M. Iewel here hath clearely allowed Yet see the nature of the man when D. Hardinge had saied so much he could not abide it but straitewaies commeth against it with this Authoritie How be it S. Cyprian saith otherwise Plebs obsequens c. The people obeying Gods CommaundemeÌ„ts must seuer them selues from the Wicked that ruleth ouer them S. Cyprian speaketh of Basilides and Martialis Bishops that had defiled them selues with Libels in which they gaue their names to Idolatrie For which cause they were excommunicated of other Bishopes and the people were forbid to come to their Sacrifice But it is no mater to M. Iewel how the case standeth with anie Testimonie that he bringeth So desyrous he is to gaynsaie D. Harding that he falleth into Contradictions with himselfe also â–ª speaking at one time for credite to be geuen to Priestes notwithstanding theyr euil life And at an other time making it lawful to forsake the Doctrine of the Preacher or Ruler for because of his euil life When Christ had deliuered both kinds vnto his Disciples he sayd vnto them this doe ye the same that you see I haue done But where did Christ euer say Minister vn to yourselues one way and an other wai vn to the people The like Argument he maketh pa. 119. Where did Christ. caet As who should saie Christ hath not expressed it Ergo it is not to be obserued Here loe we see that M. Iewell aloweth the Argument called in Scholes Ab Autoritate Negatiue except you wil say that him selfe vseth that which him selfe alloweth not But heare now what he saith in other places of his Replie M. Harding Gheasseth thus It appereth not by Beda the Seruice was in English Ergo the Seruice was in Latine What kinde of Logique haue we here Or how may this Reason hold It concludeth Ab Autoritate negatiuâ—â— I beleue M. Harding him selfe wil not allow it The Argument in deede he wil not allow as you haue made it But for as much as Bede purposely speaketh of such thinges as concerned Religion It is not to be thought that he would haue passed it ouer in Silence if the Masse had been translated into the English tongue But how agree you M. Iewel with your selfe that can both refuse and vse one and the selfe same kind of ArgumeÌ„t You haue I trow some defense for you selfe in this mater For you say in an other place The weight of M. Hardinges Argument is taken as they name it in Scholes Ab Autoritate negatiuè and vnlesse it be in consideration of some other circumstaÌ„ce it is so simple that a very Child may sone Answere it What Circumstance then is that which being obserued maketh the Argument ab Authoritate negatiuè good Surely that Circumstance were wel worth the learning that we might perceaue both how to make such Arguments ourselues without doubt of your reprehension and also howe to warne you thereof when yourselfe goe without the Cumpasse of your owne Circumstance Perchaunce you meane hereby not more but that which you haue alreadie expressed in the first Article where H. Harding obiecteth vnto you the Common vse of this kind of Reasoning which is ab Authoriâ—ate negatiuâ—â— For thus you say and it is I beleue the moste you can say that The Argument ab Authoritate negatiuâ—â— is thought to be good when so euer prouf is taken of Gods word and is vsed not only by vs but also by S. Paule and by many of the Catholike Fathers S. Paule sayeth God sayed not vnto Abraham In thy SEEDES al nations shal be blessed but in thy SEEDE which is Christ. And thereof he thought he made a good Argument Suffer me than to make a like Argument out of Good woord and let me haue your Answer vsed it Christ saith to S. Peter Feede my sheep he said not these or them Ergo vvithout Exception he comâ—â—itted his sheep vnto S. Peter But you like not this Argument For you say it is against the Rules of Logique and that it was An Errour in Bonifacius to reason thus Dominus dixit Generaliter c. The Lord said Generally vnto Peter feede my Sheepe he said not specially feed these or them therefore we must vnderstande that he committed them vnto Peter altogeather Yet this Argument is like to that of S. Paules of SEEDES and SEEDE which in deede is not 〈…〉 negatiuè but Affirmatiuè For he presseth the woorde of the Scripture SEEDE in the Singular nuÌ„ber which to make the better obserued he biddeth it to be noted y â— it was not said SEEDES But how so euer that be M. Iewels Art may be wel inough espied which al at pleasure affirmeth and denieth saieth and vnsayeth maketh Rules and Obserueth them not and is Contradictorie vnto him self in very many places This very name the HEADE of the vniuersal Church is the very thing that we deny Then are you a very vnwise man to sett the State and Substance of your question vpon a Name And to contend vpon words affirming them to be the very thinges And there appeereth here vnto me to be a manifest Contradiction that the name should be the thing For if it were so that al this writing on both sides were no more but an Alteration of Brammarians or Rhetoricians then in deede it might be a questioÌ„ whether this woorde HEADE were euer Readen in such a Case or such an Author or euer applied to such and such a person then â—roprely the Name should be the thing But now wheras al our coÌ„flict is about the Truth of thinges that are to be beleued and we seeke not after Termes and Phrases of Speache but sense and meaning of Truthes And whereas the vnderstanding which both partes thinke to instructe is not bettered by any NAMES but by the very thinges them selues It is al togeather vnreasonable to