is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
of sinne out of the soule so that it cometh in to the Church purer then the Sunne and there findes the breade of life breade of Angells the medicine of immortalitie the fouÌ„taine of all good and consummation of Sacraments the holie Eucharist to feede vppon Euery where there are Altars wherevppon is Sacrificed vnbloodilie the Lambe of God that taketh away the sinne of the world according as IESVS our high Priest Priest for euer according to the Order of Melchisedech did institute and ordaine In the way to these Altars are Tribunalls wherein those doe sitte who can open Heauen to the PeniteÌ„t where the Priest doth forgiue trespasses comitted against God Heauen approuing the Sentence of a man I will giue to thee Peeter Matt. 16. 18. the keies of the kingdome of heauen Whatsoeuer you shall loose in earth shall be loosed also in heauen whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them Ioan. 20. and whose you shall retaine they are retained Heere are the Doctors Euangelists Prophets and Pastors of whom wee reade in S. Paul Heere are Isaies Kings and Queenes Abrahams Starrs the Temples of the Holie Ghost and Gods Elect. All Tribes and People and tongues all Nations all the ends of the Earth doe come hither and adore in this Mount of our Lord in this House of God Heere the Holie Ghost still abideth illuminating directing Sanctifying and before him a hundred thousand harts burne euer in the flames of diuine loue Here some are weeping for their sinnes others meditating on the Passion others teaching and instructing the people others defining in generall Councell others conuerting Nations others adoring the souueraigne will of God others suffering for his sake In the Quire innumerable tongues are imployed daie and night in the praise of their Creator and Redeemer And round about are Watchmen that neuer hold their peace Lift vp thine eyes o IERVSALEM round about and see all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee Thy somes are come from a farre and thy daugthers are risen from thy side See and abound let thy hart maruaile and be dilated for the multitude of the Sea is conuerted and the streingth of Gentiles comes vnto thee Enlarge the place of thy tent and stretch out the skinnes of thy Tabernacles spare not make long thy cords and fasten thy nailes behold thou doest penetrate to the right hand and to the left thou art dilated to the East and to the West and to the North and to the South The Gentiles doe walke by thy light and Kings in the brightnes of thy rising Kings are thy nourcing Fathers and Queenes thy Nources The children of them that humbled thee come crouching now aÌ„d adore the stepps of thy feete Thy God hath established thee his throne as the dayes of heauen and hath made thee the pride of worlds a ioy vnto generation and generation thou art a crowne of glorie in the hand of our Lord and the Diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God 50. This Church the SPOWSE of Iesus Christ holding in her hand the BOOKE OF GOD doth contemplate and behold therin as in a glasse her OWNE SELF she beholds there her owne greatnes her owne proportion her owne face And such is the rare puritie and perfection of this glasse shee beholds there also her doctrine her inwarde composition her life and sowle The proposition of the Obiect is supernaturallie made vnto her in most cleere and euident circumstances And by the infallible operation of the All-teaching Spirit she is directed in her act By these two powerfull certaine meanes she is so constaÌ„tly setled in her faith that if the world shrink vnder feete shee will not leaue the truth Repeate now the first Chapter and reade there in PROPHECIE that which worlds of people since haue beheld with their EIES and still do reade I saie and consider it diligentlie to the end you may see how one is verified in the other that Prophecie in this Church and this Church in that Prophecie And hereby you will vnderstand at leingth by gods grace both that Prophecie and this Church to be from one and the same cause and prime author whose prouidence and power are so vniuersallie eminent that none can frustrate his designe or hinder an euent which he foretold and therfore both diuine and both from God 51. From this Church and from no other I take my direction for eternitie My owne witte might runne amisse I might mistake in the estimation of the Spirit in mee if I went alone And I were mistaken manifestlie if I followed any that swarued from the Spirit of this communitie And an other communitie like this the world neuer sawe The consent of so many worlds of people in an obscure Creede is an euident argument of a supernaturall cause vniting their vnderstandings It was ouer the world before Constantine and yet all Princes were against it in this consent and consequently of a diuine Spirit mouing them For all these Nations were neuer much lesse all this tyme of sixteene hundred yeers actualy subiect to any one Prince or State and the light of nature doth vnite many in one principle or Conclusion but by way of euidence which is not here in our Creede Further wee knowe that Schollers neuer yet agreed so generallie in things subiect vnto the naturall power of their vnderstanding neither can any man aliue finde out or assigne and defend against a Scholler any naturall cause of this vnitie in beleefe The infinite miracles illustrious and vndeniable in this Church are an euident argument that the Author of nature is in it changing the common course of things to the astonishment of the world thereby to drawe the eies of all vppon this Companie where they may see and learne the seruice of their Creator The vniformity of this Companie of Gentiles to the descriptioÌ„ made before in Prophecie and the Reprobation of the Iewish Nation left now without Temple without Sacrifice without Prophet without miracle without any argument of Gods presence and true seruice amonge them are an euident argument that this Companie and the Messias Church described in the Scripture are all one VVherefore worthily did our predecessors and wee doe worthily rest in the communion of this companie And since mortall man with his industrie caÌ„ goe no higher nor better resolue himself in diuine and heauenly â—â—â—ires being heere arriued he meetes with Gods prouidence to conduct him to securitie Is a man moued to beleeue by example aÌ„d consent here are worlds in our communion and this so ample as the like is no were to be fouÌ„d Is he moued with Miracles here are infinite The blinde see the lame walke the deade arise and of this wee haue as greate euidence as man can desire Is he moued with the common and vniforme resolution of the learned heere are generall Decrees made in Councells Oecumenicall by the wisest of all the world the prime Schollers and grauest men comming
out of the Arg. 1 words of our Sauiour Iesus Christ who promised faithfullie to send the holy spiritte vnto the Church to assist it Ioh. 14. v. 15.16 16. Ch. v 13 I will aske my father aÌ„d he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you foreuer the Spiritte of truth he shall teach you all truth Here the spiritte is promised to the Church foreuer to assist her to all truth what could be said plainer The like God before promised vnto the Church and called it his couenant Isa 59.21 to wit that the words which he putte into her mouth should neuer out of it And herevppon the Apostles beleeued that they had diuine assistance and affirmed their act and decree Acts 15.28 to be the act and decree of the holie Ghost as you reade in the Actes of the Apostles Stay here and consider well what you will do in this case if you deny the assistance you deny the word of God if you graunt it the cause is ours 23. That you may seeme to answeare you will say euer something and the more intricate it be the better it serues your turne Forsooth you graunt Assistance of the Spirit least you be seene directlie to contradict Scripture but you denie that the Church hath it The Church you saie may mistake the sense of Scripture and was mistaken many hundred yeeres together but the spirit directs you to to it your Apostle Luther and you haue hit it now at last Sillie men what are you what ground haue you for diuine assistance by what letters Patents from Gods priuate CouÌ„cell can you make this good Our Sauiour Iesus Christ hath promised the assistance of the Spiritte vnto the Church and this promise is recorded in the Scripture This holdes not you saie he hath bethought himselfe better and recalled it and made a later and an irreuocable firme promise vnto you If you be not impostors let vs see it if you showe it not as you cannot for God is God and it not chaÌ„ged you knowe what men are to thinke in such a case 24. But whie would you rob the Church of God of her legacie she doth inherite lawfullie this assistance it was bequeathed her by Iesus Christ she hath vndeniable writings to shewe for it she hath had possessioÌ„ of it longe agoe Sixteene hundred yeares she hath enioyed it It is to late for you now to commence your sute Goe first and prooue that you are the Catholique Church that the communion of Nations and of the auncient Fathers aÌ„d of the Martyrs and Saints of God haue bene with you Produce your Succession of Pastors continued euer from S. Peter bringe to light your Generall Councells which yet neuer sawe the light name the Nations you haue conuerted vnto the faith let vs heare of your miracles let vs see how the ould Prophecies all doe meete and are verified in your Church When these things are done and so well done that the world sees cleerlie your Church and not ours to be the Catholique Church then begin your sute and not now for your beggarie and want of title and imposture is yet beleeued or rather seene and felt of all the Christian world 25. If wee coÌ„sider only those whoÌ„ your selues do confesse to haue beene Heretickes heretofore you must confesse likewise that they were not Heires vnto the promises Iesus Christ made vnto his Church among which promises one was of perpetuall assistance For this promise or legacie was made and bequeathed by our Sauiour vnto his Church and confessed Heretiques were not the Church and flocke of Christ It rests therfore that you graunt that Church to inherite this legacie which is the true Church and not confessedly hereticall and false whether this Church be yours or ours This is euident Now further it is euident by the former bookes that the true Church is not yours but ours therfore the diuine assistance is in ours not in yours And this I would haue you to marke diligentlie turne downe the lâ—â—fâ— to the end I neede repeate it no more That is whensoeuer the question is about the Spiritte looke that you doe not challenge it vntill you haue prooued that yours is the Church for there is in holie Scripture no promise made of the Spiritte but vnto the Church And the like I doe saie to your fellowes either a parte or all together either moderne or more auncient if they will haue me beleeue that they haue the Spiritte of Iesus Christ let them prooue that they are the Church Neither doe I care whether the controuersie they pretend to determine by the spiritte be fundamentall or not fundamentall for I harken to no spiritte but to that in the Church therfore I say againe if they will haue me beleeue them let them prooue that they are the Church and bring such euidence as I haue demaunded heretofore which will neuer be as longe as the Scriptures and Histories are extant THE SECOND CHAPTER Wherin the last of the precedent arguments is vnfolded more at large 26. IT greeues you much that in the former Chapter I saie the diuine assistance was bequeathed vnto the Church and much you frette against me for it but cannot mend your selfe For that which I said is there prooued many waies It is a tedious thing to preach to those who shutte their eares when the word of God is deliuered who haue eies but will not see I must speake lowder yet and repeate the same ouer againe and againe that this sacred and transcendent truth of diuine assistaÌ„ce may by the operation of Gods grace enter into your sowle which errour possessing hath made deafe and dull to Gods word To runne ouer all againe would take more tyme then I can spare I will therfore inculcate the last argument onelie wherein are three texts of Scripture for assistance combined and connected all in one which I will here propose distinctlie In the first the diuine assistance is promised by God the father and I will produce the couenant In the second our Sauiour Iesus Christ doth bequeath it vnto the Church and I will bringe the words of his will registred by an Apostle In the third the confessed Church of Christ doth acknowledge the receipt of this assistance which is to be for euer hers To beginne with the first I argue thus 27. If the words of God which no doubt are the sacred truth for God speakes no lies be allwaies in the mouthes of the Pastors of Gods Church by vertue of Gods promise and prouidence this Church hath in this diuine Assistance But the words of God are allwayes in the mouthes of the pastors of Gods Church by vertue of Gods prouidence and promise therfore the Church hath in this diuine Assistance The proposition is cleere and includes proofe sufficient within it selfe because if Gods couenant and prouidence effect this thing wee speake of God effects it and is the cause of it The AssumptioÌ„ the prophet Esay
A DISPVTATION OF THE CHVRCH Wherein the old Religion is maintained V. M. C. F. E. Ierem. 6.16 Aske of the old paths which is the good way and walke in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules LAVDA BILE NOMEN DOMINI AT DOWAY By MARCK WYON at the golden Phaenix 1629. TO MY FRINDS IN ENGLAND DEARE FRINDS I haue vnderstood of your troubles and doe take comfort in your constancie Your cause is cleere your religion that which the sonne of God hath taught In former time no other was in England So much you know by the Histories and Chronicles of the country so you haue ben told by your parents who sawe the profession of it with their owne eies so your ancestors doe testifie by their wills and graues Your Churches there were built for the exercise of it as you can prooue by the generall forme of them by the crosses and pictures by the altars made for Masse Euer since the conuersion of the country from Paganisme by Sainct Augustine and his fellowes monkes it hath beene there till of late and S. Augustine brought it from Rome where it had beene common from the time of S. Peeter and S. Peeter learned it of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Those that are learned if they will looke into the Ecclesiasticall History which diuers and of late the worthy Cardinall Caesar Baronius haue compiled may see there looking vpwards to the Apostles time this Religion descending thorough all ages in sacred esteeme euer the preachers gods trumpets proclaiming it the generall councells making roome the martyrs testifying the truth of it with their blood the light of miracles accompanying it all the way and worlds of people waiting on The Societie of those that professe it is the Church and is diffused ouer the World and Catholique it is that Church which in your Creede you doe beleeue This is the spouse of the sonne of God the woman clad with the sunne manifest vnto all that willfully do not shutte their eies by her antiquitie cleere successioÌ„ vniuersality and the twelue-fold Apostolicall glorie doth crowne her heade or beginning Shee hath beene opposed by diuers Heresies but still gotte the victory bringing foorth Saincts to Iesus Christ in the labour of persecution You know the counsell of the Scripture Sonne comming to the seruice of God prepare thy soule to temptation and the affirmation of the Apostle is generall All those that will liue godly shal suffer persecutâ—on The state of the Church heere is militant and those are to be crowned that ouercome The way to heauen is full of crosses mockeries stripes and the sword helpe vs on This way those are gone of whom the world was not worthy afflicâ—ed needie in distresse This way our blessed Sauâ—our went who was heere contemned scourgel crucified It is the King of Heauens high way Our heade is gone before all blood and so entered into blisse the Apostles the Martyrs the Confessoâ—s old Simeon too and little Agnes are gone after him with their crosses and wee are bid if will liue eternally to take vp each of vs one and followe To take the spoile of your goods with ioy is to enbrace and kisse your crosse There is no deliberation when I must leaue gold or god no comparison betwixt a diamond in a gold ring and the deitie in eternitie O my deare frinds you haue each of you a Iewell within your selues richer then all the eie can see without fairer then the sunne it self and farre aboue all the disposition of the stars The vsurers Idol gold waxeth pale if you compare it to the burning sparkles of the chrysolite In your Iewell you may see heauen and earth in the compasse of the vnderstanding It hath engrauen in it the image of allmighty God and is for nature next an angell by grace companion with him as being to beare a part in the heauenly quire and there without astonishment to sing allelluia with those thousand thousand glorious queristers if the fault be not yours The Soule hauing free will had once lost it self you may by the meanes taken to recouer it know the worth The sonne of God came from heauen downe to looke it and redeemed it with that which is better then the world his life Those infinite wrongs which he suffered from men of all sorts â—hose innumerable stripes which he receaued from the soldiers whose crueltie made him all a wound the bitter passion of the crosse which no words are able to expresse was all for our redemption for the soule If you loose it now againe you wrong his loue you depriue him of his right you moue his father whose angry lookes are burning fire to reueng It is horrible to fall into the hands of the liuing God The pillars of heauen do tremble and dreade at his beck He hath measured the water with his fiste and pondered the heauens with a spanne He looketh on the earth and maketh it to treÌ„ble toucheth the mountaines and they smoke If you keepe it well he will make it a heauen wherein he with the father and the holy Ghost will dwell foreuer And your bodies he wil invest with ornaments of glory aÌ„d immortallity and place each of you in a throne with himself in the court of heauen where all are kings You shall dwell in the celestiall Ierusalem whose streete is all of pure gold and walls pretious stone where God is the Temple and the light These things God hath promised vnto those who serue him wherefore aboue all haue a care of your religion Your soule is your Iewel and Religion is the Iewel of your sowle Keepe these well and you shaâ—l be happie though persecution leaue you nothing els Each of you may haue a common wealth a kingdome within your selues if you please No State more happie no gouerment more sweete then that is where loue commaundeth and vertues do obay Let Charitie be Queene in your soule and the Vertues will all bâ— there Let men see the streingth of your faitâ— in your constancie and the sanctitie of it in tâ—e candor of your conuersation Giue all men theâ—r due to whom tribute tribute to whom Feare Feâ—re to whom honour honour In your actiâ—ns be circumspect as it becommeth Christians who beleeue the eies of God and Angels are oâ— them still and that each action is inrowled exactly to be reade and censured in the day of doome Loâ—ke oft on the liues of Saincts and by their example learne how you are to carrie your selues in yoâ—r difficulties you will do things with more ease wheÌ„ you see them doÌ„ne before you those were menâ—s wee are Be not afraid of persecution The protâ—ction of allmighty God is more then a wall of brâ—sse they who trust in him are safe mountaines in ciâ—cuite of the holy cittie and our Lord round about his people Nothing caÌ„ rob vs of our soules vnles wee will and if that be saued wee shall haue all that God hath for wee shal haue him Our
of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. 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England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because