our Church both formerly and very lately Only pray consider what an unreasonable thing it is for any to pretend that they have as good ground to separate from our Church as our Church it self had to separate from Rome Surely there is a very plain and vast difference in the case since as I have often told you the Church of Rome has nothing to do with us in England and she also imposed things unlawful as conditions of Communion Neither of which can be justly pleaded by our Separatists For I hope the authority of our Church and State extends to those of our own Nation and I reckon that our obedience in this case is bound upon us by the express commands of God himself which enjoyns us to be subject to the higher Powers to Kings and all in authority under them to obey them that have the Spiritual rule over us and watch for our souls to have respect to the very custom of the Church wherein we live to consult for the peace of it and to avoid all factions and divisions By such precepts I reckon we are obliged to submit to lawful authority requiring of us nothing but what is lawful And nothing else doth our Church require for there is nothing in her Prayers or Sacraments contrary to the Word of God This holy Word neither directly or by any good consequence forbids forms of Prayer or kneeling at the Communion which is all that the people are concerned in for as to the Cross and Surplice they belong to the Minister Now one would wonder how ever any man should fancy that a Prayer becomes unlawful by my knowing it beforehand and having often used it one would think this should rather recommend it Or why should it seem unlawful to kneel in reverence to God when I receive from him such great blessings as are represented and bestow'd in the Lords-Supper and am praying that I may effectually partake of them Are these things to be compared with what the Church of Rome requires of its members Is a form of Prayer to the true God like worshipping an Image or praying to an Angel or Saint which in other words is but to ask whether saying the Lords-prayer be as much a fault as praying to the Virgin Mary Is our kneeling to God at the Communion like adoring the Host which our Church expresly declared her abhorrence of as gross Idolatry But besides all this it cannot so fitly be said that our Church separated from the Church of Rome to which she ow'd no obedience but rather that she only Reformed her self from such errors and corruptions as the Romish Church was infected with and had spread the infection amongst her neighbours But Papists properly were the Separatists who refused to hold communion with our Church after it was Reformed though this Reformation was wrought in a regular manner and by just authority as I have before shewn And yet after all shall this our Church be stiled Popish when those holy men who were chief Reformers of it and who composed and used those Prayers which are objected against laid down their lives many of them for a testimony against Popery Yea and all other Reformed Churches have profest their great honour for our Church their communion with it and have as occasion has been offered declared against those who separate from it yea the most learned and judicious Nonconformists themselves have heretofore with great zeal preach'd and written against such separation and some of them more lately So that they who separate from us and set up Churches of their own gathering in opposition to those established by Law seem to have espoused a very desperate cause which has neither Scripture Reason nor good authority to defend it Strange that the Church of England which hath generally been accounted the glory and bulwark of the Reformation the envy and vexation of the Papist that yet she her self should be deserted and condemned by those who come out of her own bowels as a Popish Church O that there were many more such Popish Churches in the world Or rather O that all Christian Churches were so thoroughly Reformed from Popery In how happy a state would Christendom then be Wherefore again let me beseech you as you have any regard to the peace and prosperity of Church and State and to the interest of Religion amongst us see that you vehemently abhor all thoughts of Separation utterly reject all temptations to it For Religions sake I say for it 's too too apparent how much this suffers by our divisions as well as the publick weal whilst we are broken into parties and factions it threatens ruin to the Kingdom thus divided against it self yea and to the Kingdom of God also that is amongst us for this consists in righteousness and peace and that joy in the Holy Ghost which flows from charity and concord But where there is strife and envy there will be confusion and disorder and every evil work censures and slanders hatred and malice sedition and rebellion biting and devouring each other till at length without the infinite mercy of God we shall be consumed one of another or by a common enemy Wherefore I will add If you have any zeal against Popery see that you live in strict communion with the Church of England as now by Law established For nothing can be more directly framed in opposition to Popery than the whole constitution of our Church and should this be broken to pieces to what shall we crumble whither shall we run who can tell us nay who cannot tell what in all likelihood will be the event If in a besieged City there be several factions that in fury against each other break down their own walls and throw open their Gates are they not like to fall into the hands of their enemies who are watching for such an advantage whatever abhorrence our Dissenters have for Popery they cannot do a thing more pleasing to the Papist or more serviceable to his cause than to reproach the Church of England as Popish and set up themselves as a party against it By this means they give their assistance for the weakning and destroying of that Church which the Papist on the other hand hath so long been endeavouring to undermine and subvert by whose overthrow though the Papist might be exalted yet themselves most probably and most justly too would be crushed in pieces by its ruins But I fear I have tired you L. So far from it that I am greatly pleased with this your serious and earnest advice which may the better secure me against all temptations to separation if hereafter I should meet with them But I hope through the grace of God I shall always live so mindful of my duty to yield obedience to my Rulers in all things lawful and to do my utmost for preservation of the peace both of Church and State that I shall never be drawn into any separating party or faction which oft occasions
in other cases T. Good reason you have to be so wary since the boast they make of antiquity being on their side is notoriously vain and false and in nothing more palpably than in the present case about the Popes Universal Supremacy For in none of the ancient Councils is any such priviledge given him any more than in holy Scripture which Councils our Church most readily embraces especially the four first Yea the direct contrary is decreed in the very first and most famous General Council that of Nice For therein it was determined as to the Jurisdiction of Bishops that ancient customs should be retain'd and that such eminent Bishops as of Alexandria and Antioch should have the same priviledges in their Precincts that the Bishop of Rome had in his By which decree they within their several limits were made as absolute as he and were not in the least subject to his power nor responsible to him for their proceedings And not to trouble you with many instances in the next age after this there was a great Council in Carthage where St. Austin himself was present in which it was expresly decreed that there should be no appeals to any foreign Bishop after matters had been determined amongst themselves This indeed gave offence to the Pope that then was who pretended that this power of receiving appeals was granted him by the Council of Nice To which the African Bishops answered they had never heard any such matter but would send purposely to Nice it self or some other neighboring Bishops to make enquiry they did so and found all to be meer fraud and forgery Such wicked arts did they of Rome use from the beginning for the justifying and promoting their proud Usurpations Something of a precedency we grant there was very anciently allow'd to the Bishop of Rome which had nothing in it of jurisdiction and power over the rest of his brethren but only was an honour granted him chiefly on account of Rome's being the Seat of the Emperour Hereupon he had many advantages above other Bishops and was capable of doing them good Offices at Court and on that account frequent application was made to him by such as needed his assistance and very often in point of meer prudence matters were brought to him from other Churches and referred to his arbitration Hither also many of the Eastern Bishops were forced to fly for refuge and succour when opprest by the Arrians By these and such like means especially by the Emperour's removal more and more into the East the Bishop of Rome strangely encreased in honour and power and at length in pride and insolence So that in succeeding times as a secular spirit of ambition and covetousness began to infect the greatest Churchmen there were most vehement contests betwixt the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople for the preheminence For in one General Council it had been determined that because the Emperour had his residence at Constantinople the Bishop of that City should have the same priviledges which the Bishop of Rome had formerly enjoy'd for the same reason And one of the Bishops of Constantinople at length took upon him to stile himself Universal Bishop thereby say learned men claiming rather honour than any jurisdiction over his brethren Yet Gregory then Bishop of Rome was so incensed at it that he positively declared that whoever should assume such a proud title was a certain forerunner of Antichrist This was about six hundred years after our Saviour And not long after it Boniface the third Bishop of Rome by means of the wicked Phocas who had murdered his Master Mauricius and was chosen Emperour in his stead got his Church to be stiled the Supreme of all other Churches though with much ado as their own Historian expresses it But this Supremacy the body of the Greek Church utterly refused to acknowledg and so does to this day though they of Rome have several times used all manner of arts and tricks to draw them into a compliance still persisting in the same methods of fraud and violence for the confirming and securing their arrogant usurpations which at first they made use of to introduce them L. But they say it 's necessary to the unity of the Church that there should be one Supreme Head and Governour T. Very true and so I have told you there is namely the Lord Jesus Christ the only Head of the Catholick Church the Unity whereof consists in the subjection of the members to this same Head by their belief of the same Doctrine and obedience to the same holy Laws and by living in mutual love and charity and Christian communion one with another And herein most plainly doth the Apostle place the unity of the Christian Church Ephes. 4. that they have one Lord one Faith c. but not in their having one chief Ruler under Christ here on Earth whether Pope or Council only they are bound to live in obedience to their own Princes and Bishops in the respective Dominions and Churches where they reside L. They say that Christ alone is the invisible Head but the Pope is the visible Head of the Church T. This is a distinction we no where meet with in holy Scripture and therefore do justly reject it as the fond imagination of their own brain coin'd only to serve a turn But instead of detaining you with any further discourse on this subject I shall refer you to the Learned Dr. Barrow's excellent Treatise which handles it at large if you have leisure to peruse it wherein this pretence of the Popes Supremacy is so shamefully exposed and so fully confuted as cannot but give abundant satisfaction to any intelligent and impartial Reader And this is done with such strength of reason and such full proof from all antiquity that I am apt to think there will scarce be found any of the Champions for the Romish cause as bold men as they be so hardy and impudent as to attempt the returning any answer to that his most solid and impregnable Discourse L. Yet it 's wonder if they do not for they seem most zealous in contending for this above all other Doctrines T. And will you blame them since if this be disown'd the whole fabrick of Popery falls to the ground For if the Pope be not Head of the Church then all Princes in their own Dominions will be found to be Supreme Moderators and Governours in all causes and over all persons as well Ecclesiastical as Civil which is our meaning when we stile the King Head of our Church and then what reformation they with their Clergy have made according to the Holy Scriptures will appear justifiable Yea then these Princes may confer all manner of Church-preferments in their own Kingdoms without asking the Popes leave or expecting his confirmation and all Ecclesiastical causes may be determined without any appeals to Rome And if the King of England may do this in his Dominions as most certainly he may then
hands and may read them as much as they please And especially those two Books Ecclesiasticus and that of Wisdom are well worthy to be read again and again as containing most excellent moral rules for the direction and guidance of our lives Consider then what an impudent thing it is for Papists to accuse our Church for putting out these Books of Apocrypha which yet are in so much use amongst us whilst they themselves endeavour in some sort to make the whole Bible Apocryphal I mean by their hiding it so much from the common people putting away not only some but even all the Books of Holy Writ very much from their sight And some of their Authors do speak so meanly and contemptibly of these holy Books which do so little service to their cause that they seem not to have so much respect for them as we have for the Apocrypha it self So that they of all people have least reason to condemn others for slighting or rejecting the holy Scriptures and our Church hath as little reason to be condemned as any other in the whole world As to his other spiteful suggestions I leave it to your self or any other impartial person to judge whether I have said any thing against the Doctrine of their Church without giving good reason for it And I can assure you I have not in this whole Discourse said one word against my conscience neither would I have you envy or hate any mans person be he Papist or what he will whilst you abstain from their errors For though I do not believe the Popish fiction of Purgatory yet I do firmly believe there is a future Judgment and an Hell prepared for the wicked and ungodly particularly for lyers and slanderers and for such as hate their neighbours upon any pretence whatever And is this all that your Author has to say L. He adds nothing more in this Chapter but advice to those who are seduced as he calls it that they should beg light from God and weigh what he has said and seek more instruction from good and learned Catholicks meaning I suppose Popish Priests chiefly T. There 's little doubt of it Now to prevent your being seduced by those who call themselves Catholicks but are not truly so I shall wish you to follow his advice so far as it 's good Humbly beg of God to enlighten your mind with the knowledg of the truth and be ever careful to do the will of God so far as you know it that so you may be the better qualified for the assistance and direction of his good Spirit which delights in men of pure hearts and humble minds Moreover I advise you to weigh impartially what is said on both sides and then be true to your own judgment and conscience in following that which has the plainest and fullest evidence of its truth I would not have you out of pride and vanity thrust your self upon disputes but when you cannot well avoid the discourses of their Priests or Gentlemen if you happen to be at any time somewhat puzled with their arguments do not hastily conclude them to be unanswerable but consult with your Minister or such as may be best able to inform and satisfie you And you may do well to furnish your self with some of those Books that are written by our Divines in defence of the Church of England against the Papists But above all Books let me earnestly request you with great diligence to study and search the holy Scriptures for in them you shall find the true way to eternal life Read there our Blessed Saviours own most Heavenly Discourses who spake as never man spake and particularly read often his most admirable Sermon in the Mount where you have the summ of Christian Religion Read also the several Epistles of the Apostles with the rest of those Scared Writings as you have opportunity and then honestly and impartially compare the Doctrines of our Church and those of the Church of Rome which differ from ours with what is taught in these same holy Books and what you shall find to be most plainly agreeable thereto that own and embrace and evermore firmly adhere to L. The Council you give me is most fair and reasonable which hitherto I have endeavoured to follow and by Gods grace will continue so to do For I can truly say it my chief design is to please God and save my soul And I cannot imagin any surer way to attain this than by studying well the Word of God wherein he hath revealed his will and the way to eternal salvation And certainly God is so good and gracious that he will not fail to direct and guide those into the right way who with sincere and honest minds do above all things desire and endeavour to know his will that they may do it Yea I look upon it as an instance of his kindness and good providence that I so happily met with you from whom I have received such full satisfaction And as for the subtle arguments of Papists I hope by that assistance which you have already given me and yet further will do I shall in a-good measure be able to answer them In the following Chapter my Author produces several of these subtilties which he calls pregnant arguments against Sectaries and these I shall desire you to consider and give an answer to T. I am very willing to do it but that I may not tire you we 'l refer this to our next meeting L. I am well content only one favour I shall request that in the mean time you would please at your leisure to send me in writing the summ of what you have now discoursed that I may have the benefit of perusing it and fixing it better in my mind T. I shall readily grant your request and praying God to lead you into and settle you in the truth shall for this time bid you farewell L. Farewell Good Sir The Second Part. CHAP. I. Containing an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants T. WELL met Friend L. I am heartily glad Sir to meet you again so soon and do return you many thanks both for the pains you took in your late Conference with me and that you was pleased as I desired to send me the summ of it in writing which I have read over again and again to my fuller satisfaction T. I shall reckon my self very well recompenced for what pains I have taken if you reap any advantage thereby L. That I have done very much I thank God For upon the review of my Popish Author so far as we have proceeded I meet not there with any objection against our Religion nor with any argument for Popery but what I can easily answer Nay more than this since I was with you I have read over the last Chapter of his Book the consiâ—eration of which you defer'd till this our second meeting and truly I have not been much gravel'd with any thing in it but can
up where they could a most cruel and bloody Inquisition for the destroying of those whom they call Hereticks even all that will not submit to their tyranny By slaughters in the open field and publick Massacres by burning at the Stake or murdering in Prison have they cut off thousands if not millions of innocent and good Christians Judge then whether are these men acted by the Spirit of Christ yea or no L. I think not since he tells us that he came into the world to save mens lives and not to destroy them T. To this let me add that whilst they keep up the name of Christianity and so may be said to sit in the Temple of God they have for their own ends most grosly corrupted this holy Religion ordering all their Doctrines and practices so as may conduce most not to the good of souls but to encrease the wealth and honour of the Pope and his Clergy Multitudes of whom especially those of higher rank have lived in pomp and pride yea wallowed in all riot and luxury and by the bad examples they give by the loose Doctrines they teach and the large Indulgences they grant upon easie terms they have done much to promote and encourage wickedness amongst the people Judg then I say whether is all this pride and ambition this sensuality and impurity this bloodiness and cruelty falshood and violence which is the very natural genius and spirit of Popery properly so called whether is it agreeable to the temper and design of Christianity L. I rather think it directly contrary thereto T. So far therefore it may justly be stiled Antichristian Yet herein do not mistake me as if I was so uncharitable as to censure all Papists to be such proud cruel vicious persons No far be it from me I hope there are many honest souls among them both of Clergy and Laity who as I have before said do according to their knowledg serve God in the simplicity of their hearts But this I assert that consider Popery as a thing distinct from Christianity the chief Doctrine of it being that of the Popes Supremacy it hath been and at this day is carried on by such ways as I have named even by force and fraud by plots and treasons by war and bloodshed And the governing part among them who are chief factors for this design the Court and Conclave of Rome with all their busie active instruments up and down the world are led and acted by such an Antichristian or Unchristian spirit as I have before described Most plainly do they prefer their own cause and party far above Christianity the greatness and glory of the Pope and his Clergy before the honour and interest of our blessed Saviour and the salvation of precious souls Insomuch that with these Grandees Religion is little more than a bare name and serves meerly for a cloak and pretence under the disguise whereof they can more effectually pursue their own carnal ends And for the obtaining of these they have so strangely altered it that by the use they make of it and the colours they give it a man would be apt to think that the great design of our Saviours coming into the world was not so much to redeem and save mankind as to advance his pretended Vicar the Pope and to make him the greatest and most absolute Monarch in the whole world Whereas in truth nothing can be more contrary to the life and temper of our Saviour and to the whole tenour of his Holy Religion than such an ambitious lordly spirit proudly affecting dominion and honour and the great things of this present world On this account then you may perceive how justly the Pope and his adherents who make it their chief business to promote this his Temporal greatness to the infinite prejudice of Christs true Religion may justly be stiled an Antichristian faction And if after all this it shall be found that there are Prophecies in the Revelation and other places of Scripture which foretell that such a great Apostasie there shall be from the purity and simplicity of Religion and that both as to time and place and many other circumstances agreeing to the Church of Rome as by many of our Learned Writers with great reason is asserted this will go very far toward a demonstration that the Pope with his Faction is indeed the Antichrist foretold in holy Scripture L. However that be it seems most evident that Popery is a Doctrine very different from true Christianity and in many things directly contrary to it and is carried on by courses no less contrary to the example and precepts of our Blessed Saviour T. And by this means I hope you do still more and more perceive that a man may be a sincere good Christian without embracing of Popery and particularly this foundation article of the Popes Supremacy On which having been so long let us proceed to somewhat else CHAP. VI. Of Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead and Indulgences L. THE next points which my Author mentions are Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead which he puts both together T. Not without cause for the latter depends on the former as they have now ordered their Prayers though neither of them upon holy Scripture as I doubt not but to manifest but tell me first what says he of Purgatory L. He says that the Apostle informs us in 1 Cor. 3. that there is a fire in the other world in which some slight faults of good people must be purged away before they can attain Heaven T. But if you read the place you 'l find no such matter There 's not a word said of fire in another world or that mens faults are done away by fire Only the Apostle is there speaking of those who add their own fancies and false Doctrines to the Truths of Christianity which Doctrines of theirs shall in due time be strictly examined and upon a narrow search shall be discovered and rejected even as the fire consumes hay and stubble And if the men that preached these Doctrines shall be found to hold the foundation so as to be preserved from destruction yet will they escape with great difficulty as a man that 's saved out of the fire And indeed this Text doth most aptly represent to us the condition of the Romish Church for whilst they retain the foundation of Christian Religion they do build thereupon hay and stubble many false and corrupt Doctrines as an excellent Writer of our Church in a Sermon upon this Text gives a full account in a little room And amongst others he reckons this of Purgatory of which with a pleasant sharpness he there says that though they have got to themselves gold and silver by this Doctrine and that of Indulgences which depends upon it yet is it as errant hay and stubble as the rest that is vain and false For neither this nor any other Text speaks a word concerning souls being held in Purgatory flames and that
articles of Faith so that no Church on Earth has any power to coin and impose new ones not revealed in the Scripture which I say acquaints us with all things needful to Salvation And this I am sure is plainly enough taught in the Scripture it self 2 Tim. 3. 15 16 17. The Holy Scriptures they then enjoy'd viz. the Writings of the Old-Testament are said to be able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesus being profitabâ—e to all things necessary thereto as you may there find it fully exprest So Joh. 20. 31. These things are written that you might believe that Iesus is Christ the Son of God and that believing you might have life through his name So that if we believe in Jesus Christ according to all that is written of him in the Gospel this Faith if it produce Obedience will certainly procure everlasting Life And indeed our own reason may well tell us that since the very design of the Holy Scripture is to reveal to us the whole Will of God in order to our Eternal happiness surely there is revealed in them all that is necessary to this end Can we imagine that those Holy Men who committed to Writing the Doctrine of our Blessed Saviour with an account of his Life and Death his Resurrection and Ascension c. that they would omit any thing which was necessary for us to know and believe in order to our Salvation when they wrote these things purposely that we might be saved Especially if we consider that they have given us a very large account of things much more than was of absolute necessity And in such abundance would they leave out things more necessary than those they have Recorded The necessary Articles of Faith are comprized in a little room and have generally been thought to be comprehended in the Apostles Creed This was the judgement of the Primitive Fathers and many Learned men of the Church of Rome have acknowledged as much Now the Articles of this Creed I hope are all contained in the Holy Scripture being there both largely exprest and frequently inculcated So that the ground-work of the Reformation remains firm and unshaken viz. that the Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to Salvation and therefore those new Articles which the Roman Church hath invented besides yea contrary to these Scriptures ought by no means to be admitted L. The Doctrine of our Church concerning the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture seems very plain and the inference you make from it clear and natural But the Sixth Argument will give you occasion to discourse further on this Subject For my Author says it will be for confirmation of his former Proposition and thus it runs We would fain have Luther Calvin and other Sectaries shew where they find written that the Gospel according to St. Matthew is Holy Scripture rather than the Gospel of Nicodemus which seeing they cannot do and yet they believe too the Gospel of St. Matthew as to Holy Scripture they must needs confess that they believe some things which are not contain'd in Scripture T. His former Argument truly stands in much need of confirmation but is like to receive little from this which he brings to strengthen and enforce it Since if we grant him the whole of it I cannot see that it will do any service to his cause or any prejudice to ours For who ever denied but that we believe some yea many things which are not contain'd in Holy Scripture We believe there is such a Country as France and such a City in it as Paris though there be nothing of them in Scripture Or which is nearer to our purpose we believe there was such a Man in the World as Iulius Casar and that the Book which goes under his name called Casars Commentaries was indeed written by him This we believe on account of the current Tradition and constant opinion of the World from his time down to this present Age there being no ground to doubt of the truth of it since all circumstances concurr to render it credible Even thus to come to the Case in hand we believe the Gospel according to St. Matthew and the other Sacred Books to be Written by those persons whose names they bear in the Title as Authors of them because this hath been the constant judgement of the whole Church of God from the very Age wherein these Books were Written to this present time And on the other hand we have good reason to reject a Book pretended to be written by Nicodemus because none such was admitted by the Primitive Church which must needs have known of it if any such Book there had been For this reason it was never own'd as Canonical by the Catholick Church in any Age since nor therefore do we now receive it as such Where now I beseech you lies the strength of this his mighty Argument L. I confess I am so far from discerning the strength of it that I do not well understand what he aims at by it T. I 'le tell you then in a few words He would by his way of arguing force us to acknowledge that Holy Scripture does not contain all things necessary to Salvation but that there are some Traditions of the Church to be received with equal reverence and esteem as particularly that such and such Books are Canonical Scripture others not and that it is on account of the authority of the Church of Rome that these Traditions are to be received and therefore lastly they hence infer that all other Traditions which their Church proposes to us are by the same reason to be received without doubting or disputing This is their common way of arguing and this Author here and in other places insinuates the same But now to shew further how little of force or solid reason there is in this smooth and subtle talk pray consider with me seriously two or three things which I shall suggest to you L. I promise you my most diligent attention T. 1 Then we must ever carefully distinguish betwixt the tradition or delivery of the holy Scripture it self from one generation to another and those other traditions whether Doctrines or customes beside the holy Scripture which yet are by the Roman Church made of equal authority with it the former we own but not the latter For we most readily grant that there hath been a tradition of the holy Scripture as that which was written by such and such men inspired by the Holy Ghost from one age to another ever since the time of its first writing and so hath it been brought down to us in these days And those Books which the Primitive Church embraced as thus Sacred and Canonical and so delivered them to succeeding ages these do we embrace with all reverence and submission as the rule both of faith and manners containing the whole will of God in order to our salvation But then for this very reason do we utterly deny