it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
the whole churche is for that time of the assemblie publike so yt may be well said that the noÌ„ber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche to heare the worde off God how small so euer yt be can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie The places quoted in the margente to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes are handled in another place That which is alledged owte of an article of the Suche churche that thinges othervvise indifferent doo after lavvfull commaundement after a sorte chaunge theyr nature we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit withe any thinge which is here in coÌ„trouersie it hathe no knot at all but is a wandring sentence which hathe no fellow For yt is not debated here what force off authoritie the thinges haue whiche the churche ordeineth but the questioÌ„ is altogether what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order The nexte diuision wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes off doing all thinges decently and orderly ys answered in that I haue shewed that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies is therbye tyed not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God but is bounde euen according to the commaundement to frame her orders in indifferent thinges Wherin the answerer althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt doothe I suppose agree with me and therfore there was no cause he should haue required any answer Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95. IF he would haue proued that which I denie he shoulde haue shewed that thes authorities affirmed that the churche in making lawes off thinges wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence And albeit he hathe subscribed to this sentence before yet in the ende off this diuision he beginnethe to sâ—lyde into his former error saying that in matters not prescribed in the scripture he can not tel whether to resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but vnto councells stories and doctors As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche in her decrees towching suche thinges and as thowghe the firste churches vvhhich had not suche stories c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God to make constitutions by I graunte the church by stories c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know how profitable or conuenient for the churche they be vvhich being that onely vvhich is looked into in ther establishing is drawne from the scriptures and not from antiquitie Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this that there be certeine thiÌ„ges lefte vnto the order of the church with this coÌ„ditioÌ„ that they be doone according to the generall coÌ„mandements off the Scripture we will houlde him by his former vvordes and will not suffer him to breake froÌ„ vs vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte but in manifest wordes eate vp his former saying Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places for the proofe off this which we denie not let yt be obserued what partly vnproper partly vngodly choise he hathe made The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers and councells are off off those which are in controuersie as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes whether there owght to be metropolitanes c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors that they are in the churches power to order yet he settethe them downe as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God off or on are owte off the churches compas to take order in As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde to those which were not present at the action off the supper and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell that a minister can not sâ—ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth which is for his owne priuate profit The first of these is coÌ„trarie to the institution and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbiddeÌ„ in the worde of god The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word maie and if nede require owght to be receiued vnto the ministery and shewing further that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3â— yt muste needes folow that the churche determining flatly that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those to whom the worde off God settethe yt open And also that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged considering that it determined not off this as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent which are not I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning that the Answ measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges is vnsealed Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis â—d prax Basil de sancto Spiritu Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient some off them vnlawfull they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche but vnder a false clocke off tradition put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire by saying that althoughe some grew in time to superstitioÌ„ and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritteÌ„ traditioÌ„s he doothe but burne his fingers the places he can not saue For yt behoueth him to shewe that certen thinges not determined in the word off God are in the churches power and thes places yff they proue any thinge proue that the churche is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed But yet it appeareth that there were thinges in the churche not expressed in the worde I graunte and more then that thinges contrarie but by what right yt doothe not appeare And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye that woulde haue debated this question with him these places wolde haue giuen him greate
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ„ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â— plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌ„gerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â— cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritâ—â— off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ— is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
affyrme that the example off the Apostles in layinge on of handes vpon hym which ys to be ordeined coun terualleth a commaundement and owght to be folowed And if where I haue said the doinges of the Apostles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches he aske how I answere that that they did in especiall cases then is to followed vvhen suche cases fall those which they did ordinarily and generally to be ordinarily and generally followed Those thinges which they did in founding off churches and before they were established to be in life maner vsed those which they did when the churches were established to be in the same maner ordered And to enter yet further into this matter Where he saithe that the argument is nothing worth which is drawen of the facte of the Apostle by the same reason he also condemneth argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Christ and muche more of all other holie men and Prophetes Wherof the scripture is full as when our Sau. Christ proueth that it was lawfull in some case to breake the corporall reste of the Sabothe by the example off Dauids eating of the shew bread As when he excused him selfe that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth where he was nourished vp rather then in Capernaum and other places by the examples off Elias and Elizeus by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation all these argumentes if M. D. had had the answeringe of them he would as it semeth haue said vnto our sauiour Christ that they are nothing worth I graunt there be some actes of our Sauiour Christ and other godlie men in the scripture vvhich being commendable in them would not be so in vs they hauinge some either extraordinarie spirite or commaundement vvhich we haue not Off which sort Idowbte not but Maister Zuinglius mente this sentence which yow alleadge As would haue bene easely seene yf yow had quoted the place I think he hathe bene alledged ād quoted aboue fortie times before and neuer a sentēce that maketh either whot or coulde to the matters in controuersie or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were so or noo this onely place was somewhat materiall and here it is not quoted But to come againe to those extraordinarie factes I saie that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commaundemēt off God and the killinge of Cosby and Zamry by Phinchas throwghe the inspiration off the spirite off God can not let vs from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull that the Magistrate only owght to punishe publike malefactors so those fewe Actes vvhich doon of our Sau. Christ the Apostles and other godlie men are not to be folowed off vs can not let vs to teache generally that there Godly deedes which lie in vs to doo owght to be followed And as I may reason notwithstanding those exāples that he is a thefe because he hath taken that vvhich an other hath labored for against his will and he is a murtherer because he hathe slaine a malefactor being no magistrate for that purpose so I may saie he dothe well for so our Sau. Christ did so did the patriarches and he dothe euill for our Sauiour Christ the Apostles the patriarches did otherwise in that case And he that shall denie this argument vvithowt shewinge some speciall and manifest reason Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that vvhich was not for the other he is vnworthie to be a scholer in the diuinitie scooles much lesse Doctor Yf therfore the Ans would haue by any Good order put me from the possession of this place he should haue shewed that S. Paul of some speciall occasion which falleth not into our ministerie vsed this circumspection in taking suche a clowde off witnesses for the assurance off Timothies good behauior or that there is some generall rule and commaundement to the contrarie But that as he hathe not done so he can not doo there being no one stepp of any such either particular cause or generall rule either mentioned or to be gathered of that place or of any other scripture It must therfore be estemed that S. Paul did that of a generall equitie and common conuēience which owght to be vsed in such graue and weightie matters off the church Yea if M. D. Would haue a litle laid a syde his inordinate desyre off mainteining that which he hath once written he should haue founde iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections then in this For if S. Paul an Apostel endewed vvith suche a gift of discretion of spirites would not take Timothy vvhich had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures and had liued in all commendation from his infancie Timothe I say whom he had now knowen as it may be verie probably shewed of some reasonable time into companye of his ministe rye withowt suche diligent circumspection how muche lesse may a Bishop in authoritie inferor vnto him in gifte of discerninge spirites not to be compared receyue into the mynistery vpon the Testymonie off one onelie a man vvhom he hathe not knowen before and vvhatsoeuer he be in knowledge of the word of God far behinde Timothy And yt is not to be let passe for further answere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius Of a deede or an example to make a lavv that yt hath bene shewed to haue bene the practise of all the Apostles at other tymes in there elections and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule but off the continuull practise of the Apostles Moreouer by defense of receiuing at the testimony of one onely what doth he els then make as easie an entrance into the highest place off the church off God as a man off any calling and wisdome ioyned with yt would make into one of the least offices of his howse for surely if he haue any regarde vnto the good order of his howse and consider that the misbehauiour off his seruāte vvhom he vvill put in any trust reacheth vnto the dishonour of him selfe and his vvhole howshold he vvill neuer admit him vvhom he knoweth not vvithowt some one mans commendation off whom he is well assured But the law of God in this behalfe is most clere which to the deciding of a vveighty matter in dowbt requireth two witnesses and if it can be thre and namely where the iudgement is of bloude yt expresly forbiddeth that iudgement should passe vpon the Testimonye of one But in the iudgement of a minister where the question is of a great numbre of destruction of bodie and soule and that for euer shall it being dowbtfull be giuē vpō one mās testimonie how sufficient so euer he be Especially seing that there owght to be greater triall and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters thē in ciuil causes which may appeare further by that which S. Paul writeth vnto Tymothie Where he
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this cōmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee haūe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
out off Bulling Muscul Heming to be preaching the gospell purely and constantly is nothing to the pourpose For we graunt yt is true but that there is further vnderstanded which may seuere hym from other ministers off the word Whereoff Caluin assigneth thes reasons one that by ascribing vnto him this degree aboue that off Pastors he might procure him more autoritie the other that he might thereby gyue the spur to stir vp and enforce him self to all carefull trauaile off answering so highe a calling Off both which reasons he assigneth a manifest cause which is that the Apostel throughout his whole epistle driueth vnto those two endes This is yet clearer for that where other titles off Apost Prophe c. be caried off the scripture from their particular vnto a generall signification this word off Euangelist set a part this place in controuersie is not vsed but to note that proper office opposed vnto other ministeries off the word And therefore the Apostel hauing occasion to speake off this word preacher shunneth as semeth the word Euangelist and vseth an other when as notwithstanding the word Euangelist was proper to holy writ and thother commen to prophane off which reason also I left a step in the place before recited Againe Eusebius howsoeuer otherwise he forgetteth him self where he speaketh off that proper office noteth it out by the same manner of speache which the Apostell saying they did the vvorcke off Euangelistes Last off all it appeareth by that the scripture setteth forth off him both before he was at Ephesus and after touchching his ministerie in many places where the Apostels had tawght before that the worcke off Euangelist is taken in that particular signification whereby it is seuered from other Ministers considering that the Euangelistes office was to water where the Apostles had planted and to be assistant vnto them His third answer is a mash and bruing of all together drinck fitter for horse then men For to be sure to make Timothe a bishop he thinketh that one at one time may be Apostle Euangelist Doctor bishop and I can not tell what which is directly against the word off god As when yt saith that God gaue some Apostels some Prophetes againe he set first Apostles secondly Prophetes c. Againe are all Apostels are all Prophetes c. Whereby appeareth that the holy gost placeth thes diuers giftes in seuerall persones and that they are one vnder an other so that onles one and the same maÌ„ may at one time be second and third inferior and superior before and after him selfe yt can not be that one at one time can be Apostle Euangelist c. hetherto perteineth which is towched in the former booke that the Apostel bringeth off the likenes off constitution off our bodies with the church that as the naturall bodie so the spirituall of the churche is best preserued and mainteined in most comelines when euery member doth his proper office and of the contrary side â—â— th one so thother is hurt and disfygured when one breaketh vpon an other Whereuppon yt is euident how vntrue yt ys which the D. doth in so great assurance set downe that one may be Euangelist and Bishop at one time Besides that he is confuted by his owne wordes For if the office off an Euangelist be to preach more feruently then others which significatioÌ„ those three which he hath set downe onely as that which putteth a differeÌ„ce betweÌ„ yt aÌ„d others caÌ„ staÌ„d theÌ„ he caÌ„ be no bishop coÌ„sidering that euery office hath his proper gift according to the measure whereof it is exequuted And yt is as absurd that a bishop should preach more ferueÌ„tly aÌ„d beyoÌ„d the measure of a bishop as yt is that a maÌ„ may leape beyond him self ouerrun himself yt is saide that one in his full age differeth from him selfe in his childhood and a man at one time may after a sort passe hym self at an other but that he should differ from him self at one and the same time as the D. iudgement implieth this is the first tydinges I haue heard off yt Againe yt is houlden off all that I haue red Zuinglius onely excepted which maketh a bishop and an Euangelist all one that both an Euangelist is not and a bishop is bound to a certaine place And this difference is thus far confessed off the D. that the Pastor is more bound to one speciall church then the Euangelist which yf yt be true a man being as he saith at one time both bishop and Euangelist may be also at one time bound and not bound vnto one place haue a speciall charge off one and indifferent off all which will be hard for him to bring to passe without he worcke miracles For his reasons whereupon this opinion standeth that Saint Paul is called a Doctor S. Mathew and Iohn being Apostels are off writers called Euangelistes they are far from prouing this Touching the fyrst Saint Paul ys not called a Doctor symply but with addition Doctor off the Gentils declaring that his Mynistry perteined not to one kingdome but vnto all which is all one with an Apostel Towching thother he should vnderstand that our question ys not off an Euangelist as writers but as Sainct Paul taketh Euangelist which can be by no meanes vnderstanded off him which writeth the storie off the gospell considering that Philip which is confessed to haue bene an Euangelist in that sense was none Yff he say that the Apostle ment to set forth twoo kindes of Euangelistes one preaching onely an other preaching and writing too I answer that Saint Paule pourposing there to set forth the liberalitie off the Lord in giuing preaching ministries vnto the church was nether so negligent a commender off the grace off God nor so drie and poore off speach but yf there had bene an other seuerall ministerie as this answer supposeth he both would and could haue vsed an other word as a seuerall dishe to haue presented this gift with And seyng the D. bringeth in S. Paul offring one onely gift of the bishoprik vnto the church in two wordes as it were two dishes what likelihood ys there that he would thrust vp so narrowly thes two giftes whereoff ech off them being more excellent then the bishoprick asketh greater roume Moreouer by the same reason that men may call Saint Mathew and Saint Iohn Euangelists becawse they wrote the stories of the gospell they may call S. Paul and Peter c. For as they wrote the storie so thes wrote the summe off the whole doctrine off the gospell They being therefore both writers off the gospell in this rule of esteeming Euangelistes by writing muste needes be a like Euangelistes For the greeke word fauoureth the one as well as the other yt being as ioyfull newes which S. Peter and Paul wrote as that which S. Mathew and Iohn For the difference off storie and summe bring not a graine weight to pull the name of
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
stand withowt him is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops and those called by the commen name of bishops are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme although the name were not is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes to pull in their vnwrittē verities owght to serue the reader for a watch word that tharbishops office needing this phisick is sick off the same disease And for the word it self although it be lawful ād very conuenient and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it yet yt is not necessarie as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ can not be mainteined For to say so were to accuse the holy writers S. Iohn especially which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time Cerinthus Ebion c. did neuer vse it But what is this vnto the Archbishop let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God and then this example may help yow And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme Yet wordes off the same weight were If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop although yow shew not this yt shall be sufficiēt if yow can not then this example maketh against yow Here also is further to be obserued that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time although the name was not is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop that although the name of vniuersall bishop was not at the first gyuen to the Pope yet the autoritie was After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops ether they must haue had autoritie then or neuer after So keeping yowr similitude if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended and in S. Paules time ether they must haue had their autoritie then or neuer after And the case is nothing like for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times they being needfull for preseruation off the churches the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power to ordein Christian Princes But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops if they had bene needfull and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them seruing so greatly to the building off the church as we are borne in hand Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times persones places wheras by his owne confession the Archbisop is temporall and arbitrarie Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places so that it may florish withowt thes But the Archbishoprick seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function ether must be planted by one off thes places or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function which is not here set forth Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together for how cleaue thes Some offices instituted off God endured for a time therfore men may deuise new offices Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time therfore man may or in this that God did abrogate certein offices therfore man may institute Which soeuer yow say as yow must needes say one the absurditie is apparant for in both the comparison is made between the autoritie off God and thautoritie off man Betwene whom how great distance there is so great difference is there between yowr argument and a iust conclusion The cleane contrarie is gathered rather For as we reason against the Papistes that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies he would haue taken off his owne so yt may be saied that God did not cut off his owne ministeries to make place for others and that if moe ministeries off preaching and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie beside Doctors and Pastors he would rather haue kept his owne then takē those vvhich men deuise Here all shiftes and coulors failing him and not being once able to lift at this reason he hath chaunged my argument For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme he hath altered yt But I will offer yt him againe yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor tharchbishop be comprehended then he is necessarie and commaunded by the vvord off God but yow say he is comprehended therfore he is commaunded and necessarie Which if it be true then yow are fallen from yowr distinction of thinges necessarie to saluacion and not necessarie off thinges arbitrarie and commaunded by the word off god But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion and as yow thowght yow could weld yt how yow deale with yt Yow say first this proposition Pastors are necessarie at all times is particular verily the masters by whom this should be iudged neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter is particular But because yow like not the forme which I vsed yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie the Archbishop as yow say is one off S. Paules Pastors therfore he is necessarie Here if yow denie the first proposition yow haue the whole councell and Senate almost of learned men against yow affirming that those two Pastor ād Doctor are amōgest the rest perpetuall offices And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor which S Paul speaketh of then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish or not to establish him yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ which if it be absurd that also must be wheroff this followeth Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor then goeth to the grownd his cōmen refuge that his office may be instituted
Bishop off the paris hes there which when by common construction yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely or vnto the reste off Egypte onely or to bothe together yt was to greate boldnes not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius but also to bringe him in so speaking But that the worde there can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before and after For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian and Cornelius liued had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin then by all reasonable vnderstanding yt muste be estemed that this worde there owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria Abilius the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no mētion He saith the same off Primus succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria the same off Iustus which succeded Primus the same of Eumenes which succeded him the same off an other Marke which succeded him the same of Celadion which succeded him the same off Agrippa whō also he calleth Agripinus which succeded him And where speaking off all the former he saide they vvere bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria off Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith he gouerned the churches in or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed yea off those which succeded Demetrius as famous and as renoumed as he there is no suche thinge For off receiued the ministerie vvhich vvas at Alexandria likewise of Dionisius which succeded Heracles that he receiued the gouernement of the churches vvhich vvere at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian and Cornelius which we haue presently in hande When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince but are conteined within the circuit off one citie vntill the time off Cyprian and Cornelius yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius but that this owght to be an other marke to know that nether Cyprian nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all further then the cyties wherin their churches were And withall appeareth the cawse why Euseb did no more particularly restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick The next diu hath nothing worth answer being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto Sauing this that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop which maketh nether whot nor kolde vnto this question seing that Pupianus was no bishop but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche But of answer to my argument that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian for that his deede vvas like as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop or iudge of iudge there is no newes wheras if yt were not a proude thinge to be bishop of a bishop c. Cypr. did with no good aduise set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop which the Ans afraied to affirme would haue his reader thinck but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places in that he denieth that he pressed him vvith further autoritie then that vvhich all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels That Cyprian did not obiecte this to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop as a prowde name but as a prowde deede is a poore exception for if yt were a prowde deede to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop yt muste be also a proude name to be called the bishop off a bishop The Answ wordes carie no meaning with them to cōclude that which this cawse requireth For what meaneth this one bishop off a Prouince had no autoritie ouer another but were equall what is this to my reason which is that forsomuche as the godly vvriters proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome vvith other bishops for that they called one another fellovves and brethren the bishops off dioceses and metropolitanes calling one an other fellovv bishop fellovv in office brother c doo therby declare that there vvas none vvhich ruled ouer an other For onles the reason be firme in the one yt is not good in the other But he answereth further Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops and brethren declared therby the function to be all one So may the Papistes answer that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes and brethren becawse they had the same function and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him But as that so this is an absurd answer The Godly writers vse not this reason to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes with the bishop of Rome which the Pope him self confesseth but to proue that they were not vnder but off the same autoritie with him which he denieth The next answer Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit is I doubt not althowgh I can not presently note the place another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason As if true humilitie did hinder any to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche or commen wealth doth put vpon him He further answereth that S. Peter calling the Bishops and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders was notwithstanding higher in degree then they I graunt but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie yt is not ment so much for honour as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges which notwithstanding had no dominion Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those with whom they carie the same yoke and degree off ministrie To that owt off Cyprian none of thē toke him self bishop off bishops he answereth he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop which how absurdly it is spoken may appeare by that a before spoken off the Africane Councell His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie for that thes wordes were
vttered off him in that Councell where an error was decreed wherof hs was cheif autor Where he might with as good right reiect all that euer Cypriā wrote For albeit this were spokē in that Councell yet yt no more perteineth nor hathe no more acquaintance with that error then this that we are iustified by faithe alone Yf he woulde conclude that Cyprians autoritie is no sufficiente proofe considering that being a man he might erre in this pointe as he did in another it is that we willingly graunte and therfore call and crie vpon the D. as loude as we can that the whole cause may be tried by the scripture from which he flieth as Darckenes before the face off the light His thirde is by thes wordes none taketh on hym to be the bishop off bishops he mente that one bishop shoulde not tyrannically rule ouer another which is vntrew for Cypr. addeth that as an either thinge likewise forbidden So that where he saith none dothe ether make him selfe bishop off bishops or bynde his fellovves by tyrannicall feare the D. off twoo sentences maketh one and Cyprians or he expoundethe that is to say But doeth he not see how still he ministreth weapons vnto the Papistes by this friuolous answer for vnto the godly learned writers alledging this place to proue that the bishops off Rome haue no autoritie ouer other bishops the Papistes may answer with the D. that all that is mente off tyrannicall autoritie Fouthly he saith thes wordes Euery bishop hathe ftee libertie and free iudgment off his ovvne povver are not mente off iurisdiction but of iudgement and opinion As if there were les daunger in letting a bishop holde what opinion he thincketh good withowt controlement of an other bishop then in letting him gouerne his churche as him semeth best withowte the same controlement So that herin the D. flying from the smoke falleth into the fire The vanitie off which answer appeareth also by that in an other place where he saith there is but one bishopricke vvheroff euery bishop holdeth one part vvholy fully in all respectes Likewise in an other place he saith he holdeth his bishoprick off Christ vvho is the cheif bishop And most plainly it is confuted by that I haue alledged owt off Cyprian Where in expresse wordes he referreth this freedome off power which euery Bishop hath not as the D. to the bishops opinion but vnto the gouernement off his church Where for confirmacion off thes answers he saith otherwise a bishop should be exempted from all controlement off Synodes and other as well as of archbishops the answer is easy For althowgh Cyprian say no one Bishop can be iudged off an other bishop yet he denieth not but he may be iudged off the church And althowgh no one bishop haue autoritie ouer him yet a Councell off bishops may correct him And that this is one off those iudgementes off Christ Cyprian ment off and that in those wordes he doth not reserue the iudgement off the bishop offending vnto the day of the general iudgemēt may be shewed by that he saith Christ set thē bishops in their charges As therfore Cyprian calleth the placing off a bishop in his charge by the churche by the elders theroff and the next bishops the placing of Christ so he meaneth that iudgement giuen against a bishop offending by the church and Synodes is the iudgement of Christ That owt off Cyprian wherin the weight off the argument lyeth euery Bishop muste rule his ovvne flock him self as he that shall make account off his deed vnto the Lord he passeth by After to the wordes off Cyprian that nether he nor his fellovves vsed compulsion tovvardes any appointed any lavv to any seing that euery one set ouer the church hathe in gouernement theroff free disposition of his owne will werof he shall gyue accoumpte vnto the lorde he saith I left owte that which gyueth the solution and therupō according to his coustome picketh a quarell to translate the whole sentence Yet nether sheweth one word nor can shew lefte owte to make for him against me Onely he saithe vndowtedly Cyprian in saing he would not deale with other bishops c. meaneth those churches and bishops which he had nothing to doo with which is very straunge seing he hath before made him archbishop almost ouerall the world After he saith he would not haue suffered them if they had bene off his owne charge which is a grosse begging off that in question for yt is debated whether he had any bishops vnder his charge And what manner off interpretacion is this vve do violence to none nor appointe lavves to none that is to none in other Prouinces and euery bishop hathe povver of the gouernment of of his ovvne churche that is euery bishop owte off Cyprians prouince what a kold saying should this be that nether he nor any of his fellowes vsed violence towardes bishops off other Prouinces With whom they hauing so small intercommuning could scarce vse violence if they would Or to say they appointed no lawes to vvhom they had no coulor to gyue any And as this interprepretacion hauing lien in the Ans rack is pulled owt of all the ioyntes so that it is vtterly false may appeare by that before alledged owt off the Councell off Carthage Where wordes of like effect are vttered by Cyprian vnto the bishops off the same Prouince he was of Last of all becawse I may not haue that credite which the Ans to vnderstand this place off Cyprian yet I trust he vvill belieue Musculus Who of this place and others concludeth that vvhen Cyprian vvrote he did neuer so much as think off the povver off Patriarches off Metropolitanes off the bishop off Rome but esteemed that all bishops ovvght to haue like care and povver euery one in his ovvne church So beside this testimonie that Cyprians priest was nether Patriarch nor Metropolitane he hathe also that he was bishop of one church which is that I haue affirmed For the autoritie vvhich the archbishops and bishops haue ▪ there is an other place yt is sufficient here to shew that they had no iurisdiction one ouer an other in Cyprians times That owt off Cyprian towching ministers sacrificing is before answered To Cyprian saying the vnitie off the church is interteined by consent off bishops one vvith an other the D. answereth they agree neuer the worse by hauing a superior aboue them Albeit they agree neuer the worse yet if they agree neuer the better he owght as an vnprofitable tree which occupieth place in the lordes orchard be rooted owt Althowgh it shal God willing appeare that the Archbishops office is the knife which cut the cordes off vnitie which both was and otherwise might haue bene mainteined amongest the bishops The first reason why tharchbishop is necessarie is because there may be one to assemble them together As thowgh that was not doon before that office was
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
consulship not in all pointes but onely in this that he should propound the matters c. as before Which appeareth in an other place and euen in this verie place when he saith yt is meete that althovvghe they be all off equall povver yet there should be one as yt vvere moderator And therfore if yow woulde haue made yowr archbishops according to Caluins measure he owght to haue no more preheminence before the simplest pastor then the Consull which spake had before his fellow Consull which helde his peace Wher he saith the prolocutor chosen for the inferior sort of clergie yet the Archbishop reteineth still his office yt shewethe that he is now but an idoll hauing put ouer the duty to other for which he is supposed to haue bene so necessarie But yt is manifest that the Prolocutor in the synode hathe all that preheminence which Peter had aboue the other Apostels and therfore which one pastor owght to haue aboue an other which is that I browght yt for The next I answere not Where I shew his vaine argument that one bishop shoulde be aboue an other because Paule an APostle was aboue Timothe an Euangelist he saith that yt houldethe because they differ not in the administring off the the worde and sacramentes but in gouernement Which is vntrew for they differed in both alike For as they differed from the Apostles in that they gouerned those onely churches ouer which they were set where the Apostles gouernement stretched vnto all churches so they could not administer the worde and sacramentes but where they were appointed where the Apostles might do yt in all places But for further confutation off this distinction I referre me to that before Where I shew his argument all one with this my Lord maior is aboue the Sherifes therfore one sherife is aboue an other he saith I should haue concluded that because my Lord Maior hath rule ouer the cytisens therfore the Apostels superioritie ouer an inferior degree off ministerie proueth that one in the same degre of ministerie may rule ouer an other Which is to ridiculous For if it were as it is not a good argument from ciuill gouernement vnto ecclesiasticall yet to saie that therfore one ecclesiasticall officer may beare rule ouer an other yea that one may beare rule ouer his fellowes off the same order becawse the magistrate beareth rule ouer priuate men cleaneth togither as goates dounge So that if there were any argument here yt ys that as my Lord maior ruleth ouer the cytisens so yt behouethe the pastor to rule ouer his flocke The next diuisiō is answered Wher he calledged Calu. that vppon that Paul willed Titus to appoint Elders saithe Titus was in autoritie and counsell aboue other Pastors and I opposed Calu. which sheweth that he did nothing in that behalfe vvithovvt the aduise off other pastors and consent off the churches he askethe whotly still for answere As if it were not answered especially when I shewed before that the superioritie that ministers can haue in suche meetinges is onely to propounde c. as is before declared Which Calu. do the expresly set forthe in the same place when he saith S. Paule commaunded him onely to be president or moderator in the election The two first sections how shamefullie they be said I leaue to the readers iudgement in the last against that I alledged owt off the Scoliaste that Paule would not haue one rule the whole I le and therfore not Titus is browght first an exposition gone abowte to be confirmed off him and Chrysostome which say that Paule committed vnto Titus Crete and to Timothie almoste all Asia As yf that might not well stand with that that Titus gouerned one citie alone for in that they had autoritie giuen them to appoint ministers in forme aforesaid in all that circuite vntill the churche there were fully established and a lawfull ministerie throwghly planted ▪ there charge in that respecte extended yt selfe to that whole circuite But when the countrey was deuided into seuerall churches and euery churche had a lawfull and complete ministery he charge before generall is now restrained vnto that one churche where Titus made his abode Euen as euerie off the 12. Princes and Aaron which deuided the land off Canaan had before partition a certein power off all which after lottes cast had onely to do with that which apperteined to them in seuerall A thowgh yf yt be graunted that Titus and Timothe continued that large gouernement during their abode there wherin I will not striue yet considering as hathe bene shewed they were Euangelistes and no Bishops nor Archbishops there can nothing grow to them hereby For as no man can haue gouernement ouer all the churches which the Apostels had but they that haue that speciall office so none can succede into the iurisdiction off Euangelistes but they onely which haue that extraordinarie ministerie And therfore Caluin in the place before cited off the D. saith there vvas not then suche equalitie c. but that one did rule ouer an other noting by the word then which the D. hathe vnfaithfully left owt that the gouernemēt which Titus had in Creta was for those times when ther were suche extraordinarie callinges Wher he saith in streightening Titus to one church I make him pastor which I donie let him learne that to haue charge in one church alone not a pastor vnles he be so tied that he can not departe withowt the churche lose his bonde Which neither Titus was nor is by any word affirmed off me Whether the rest be shamels accusations let the reader iudge The next althowghe vnworthy of answer being but bare affirmacions against my reasons is answered before As for that those wordes receiue no accusations c. must needes be vnderstanded of one which hathe other elders vnderneathe him and therfore not off euerie pastor yt argueth that the D. is spent For he knowethe that we hould that euery pastor had his elders assistan which hath and shall God willing appeare Besides that it argueth his ignorance off the state of the elder churches wher as hathe bene shewed bishops sat in iudgement off other bishops ād elders not vnderneath them That ther be not a hundreth seuerall preceptes in the three epistles to Timothe and Titus wheras in diuers verses there be sixe or seuen doth well become his bouldnes Against reason alledged owt off Augustine that the place owt off Epiphanius was of some false Epiphanius here is nothing but autoritie Howbeit not to striue for this before I come to answere yt is to be noted that this is Pigghius reason against the churche off God euen in the verie selfe same cause which we haue now in hād towching this sort of bishops For against the Waldenses firste and after against Wickleue which put no difference betwene a bishop and a priest Pigghius hath a treatise in his Hierarche wherin he pressethe them with
the way whom I iudged to be owt to light him a candle whom I saw in this poinct to grope in darcknes And if I did yt sharper then your tast can like off beside that bitter thinges are often wholesomer then sweet yow should not thinck muche to be stricken with the back off the sword which haue smitten others with the edge nor to be lightlie pricked vvith some empaire off your credit vvhich haueÌ„ thrust others throwgh in taking from them so muche as lay iâ— yow al opinion both of godlines and learning Yow doubt whether I meant good faith when I called yow a brother take heed lest in giuing no credit vnto others yow leaue no place for others to giue any to yow And if I had offended in these yet my vnthaÌ„kfulnes can not be great Yow neuer gaue me any thing in my bosome or secretly what yow haue giuen by sound off trump and openly can not be hidden But my reproches and as yow often cal them gybes can not be excused yt is not meet that I should my self sit in iudgement off my owne modestie yt ys vnreasonable also that yow the partie grieued should For as selfeloue may blinde mine eyes and as parents in their children not onely cause me not to see the blemishe but also to thinck yt an ornament so may displeasure dasel yours and cause your iudgement to decline to muche on the one side My conscience doÌ„th not hetherto accuse me in this behalfe others also whom this hath misliked vvil peraduenture be more fauourable if it be first considered that yow account diuers for pleasant speaches which are not therby to auoide that yow could not answer Of which sort is that 767. line 6. and 576. line 23. Secondly if yt be considered that yow take some thinges otherwise then I vvrote them For example where I note your homelie mirth of the curst wife and theef which stole the priests purse to haue bene vvith the baggipe and not vvith ether the harpe or lute yow expound it as thowghe I had taken my self to the countrey wherin yow were born Which verely I ment not but had regard onely to the greke prouerb wherof Tully maketh mention that those vvhich could not come to the honour to handle the harpe vvere content to vse the bagpipe Which is euident in that I oppose countrey not your countrey your mirthe to learned mirth Here also seemeth should be considered how yow haue â—oden vs vvith those reproches vvhich yow accuse me of Wherin not to waste paper in rehersall of all I will onely giue a tast of your later book for that off your other boke in which all know your intemperancie yow denie there is any suche thing because I gathered yt not Adders and Sepentes swarme amongest yovv pag. 50. A mind ful of reuengement 799. Ould rancour 2. Stomackes suche and arrogancy so great 12. Stomacke swelling 109. Boiling 56. Spirit of yowrs bursteth 37. He swelleth like the sea 423. Reueale that lump off arrogancye and ambition 467. deep dissembled hypocricie 467. A face puffed vp with arrogancy and vaineglorie 799. Maner off writing spitefull malitious contemptuous owtragious 12. Arrogant 32. Scoulding 12. pratling 512. lying 467. A shameles and wicked lie 422. Tonges vnnatural 6. VVauering wicked wretched 422. Hoat eloquence 409. Hoate Rhetoricke 45. Cynicall Rhetoricke 391. Lucians Rhetorick 489. Figure off lying 812. VVhether will this venemous mouthe reache 445. VVordes serpentine and viperous 422. He bloweth owt stormeth against me 56. Roreth like a Lyon 423. Off a diuine become a scorneful iester 577. Your veine off gybing and iesting 25. Flowting 91. Arrogant scoffs and frumpes 336. Heathnish floutes and frumpes 470. Boke pestered with moe stoutes and iestes then hardinges VVhat dronken poet prophane Philosopher or boy off grammer schole knoweth not c. 151. Heathnish confuting 25. Babishe abusing scripture 262. VVilfull deprauing 16. Conuicted wickednes 56. The Archbishop hathe cause to thanck yow for your gentilnes 374. A daunsing deuise 337. Suche a mightie man in scripture and so profound in all knowledge pag. 9. I suppose yow vse them as meanes to cast vp your melancholy which yow call zeale 39. But soft man a while yow do but dreame 209. Let him take all these wherof diuers are often repeated and if he be ashamed off them hide them yet for any word off reproche I haue vsed in either off my bookes I will finde both moe and more bitter in his later boke wheroff I haue not once made mention Where also it owght not to be forgotten how his second boke is as heauie with this kind off stuffe as his first yf not haeuier They say it is better to be beaten second because the hardnes off angre is commonly broken vpon the first But yt seemeth the Answerer dronck in more off his angre then he powred forth Lastly let it be considered whether his answers are for the most part so ridiculous that if he which is said to haue wept so muche had replied vpon him he could easelier haue houlden hoat coles in his mouth then haue absteined from those salt sayinges which he so sore complaineth off Here I omit that the scripture doth diuers times vse this kinde off reprehending Also that the most modest spirit off all the auncient writers not permitteth onely but as yt were exhortethe to a mercifull kinde off deriding So that the mind being pure the thing yt self vsed moderately to discredit sin can not be condemned His accusations vvhich touche the cause follow vvhere abbridging the magistrates autoritie often repeted but neuer proued shall be seen in the proper places There shall appeare that I haue browght it into no smaller roum then the vvord off God hath shut it and the best learned and godliest writers both nwe and ould haue plainly taught of yt In which point let yt be also here obserued how there be no wordes so fenced against all cauils vvhich the D. vvill not assay to depraue For vvhere I cited examples to proue that men are said to doo thinges wherof they are the cheif and principall and not the onely doers and amongest them alledged that off Moses which appointed officers by the peoples consent he feareth not to say that I therby pushe at the ciuil magistrat aÌ„d infinuat that the prince may not appoint vnder officers without the peoples election But let him answer what is the instrument wherwith I will not say I pushe but so much as towche yt with my litle fingar ys it because I say those gouernours were chosen with consent of the people the scripture as is after shewed doth manifestly proue yt Or did I euer teache it in pulpit mention it in disputation defend it in talk wherby these wordes might with more likelihood be haled vnto suche a sense what would this man haue done trow yow if I had as Maister Bullinger doth vpoÌ„ that place of Moses concluded that the
peoples consent owght to be in the election off their Pastor Not vnlike to this is that wherby vpon a rule brought and applied as well by other learned men as by me to the Ecclesiasticall election he would insinuate that I meant yt should be translated to the ciuill estate Where appeareth that there is no sparke off equitie in him For if the rule were giuen generally then my applying of it onely to Ecclesiasticall elections doth rather call yt from being vnderstanded off the ciuil if it be giuen of it alone then it is clere that I vsed it accordingly Beside that I haue shewed that it is far otherwise in the ciuill then in the Ecclesiasticall gouernement and that thinges vnlawful in one are notwithstanding lawful in the other But thus must I restore that I neuer toke and be accused off thinges vvhich I not onely neuer did but not so muche as knovv off Here also falseth an other accusation of flatterie off the people with iniurie to the magistrate Where him selfe gyueth me at least this testimonie that I haue bene euil scholed in that craft which haue chosen masters that can do so litle for me Yf the state off our commen wealth had bene suche as wherin the people had born the sway his accusation vntrw should yet haue had some colour off trwth An other accusation is off wrong in not setting downe his boke as one looth it should be compared and for fear my corrupt dealing should appear But this accusation lieth against the most part of learned men which hauing confuted aduersaries off the trwth haue not onely not set downe there bokes but not giuen their readers so particular addres for conference as I did Here therfore ether let him absolue me or condemn me with them That I did yt not in suche respect as he saith I haue protested the truth wheroff shall now appear And withall that notwithstanding his setting downe let the reader iudge whither he vseth as he saith off me friuolous replies childish collections fraudulent deprauing off my boke Beside that he hath passed by diuers reasons off mine vntowched yea and as shal God willing hereafter appeare guilfully left out of his own boke in one or two places And because I am entred into his dealing hauing bene tied now full two yeares to turn this stone of his writinges it wil not be amis to admonish of some of his practises wherby the reader may the better know how to turn himself in them ether present or to come if he kepe on the some course In the reste therfore off his boke beside reproches furmises c one part is spent in naked affirmacions withowt proof vented often by questions etherfond or from the purpose and in dry testimonies off men both which are as other his furniture repeated and that sometimes again and again That where the Cuckow trobleth but once a year he with his vntunable repetitions off one thing to the same purpose trobleth all the year long Yet hath he euery hand while to be short In his testimonies beside that yt shall appeare that so many as make to the cause they are almost euery one ether falsified or drawen from the meaning of the autors yt is first to be obserued that to answer the places off scripture alledged yt is verie like that he first turneth to Maister Caluin if he be against him he goeth to aske fauour at other if no body answer nothing yet he bringeth sondry times euen that nothing that is to say which maketh not for him sometime also against him Secondly where in his former boke he propoundeth certein thinges as his own not able to maintein them in this he callethe for the autors assistance of whom he hath not so muche borowed them as taken them against their willes yet he counteth yt vaine glorie to take owt off an autor and to conceale his name Notwithstanding if he had knowen from whom his collections came which he vseth and had bene thankfull to his autors in that sort he saith we owght we should often haue had in the margent for Augustin Ambrose Chrysostome c. Pigghius Hosius Harding c. To let pas diuerse reasons I gaue him which he neuer thaÌ„ked me for but hideth them as well as he can by taking them vp before hand or he came to the place where I giue them Thirdly where his autoritie is nameles and goethe vnder this generall title other learned men thinck otherwise a learned man saith so haue yt for suspected off popery For that in some off those places he can haue no other autors but Papistes as I am persuaded Last off all that he doth often bately recite them vvithowt applying them to his matter or gathering his argument off them The cause vvheroff is for that they are not hable to beare any argument the vanity wherof vvould not forthewith appeare if it vvere gathered Which is manifest for as muche as vvhere any colour off argument dothe but peep there he presseth them diligently vvhich practise he vseth in his other proofes albeit he precisely reprehendeth it in the autors off the Admonition Touching the other part of that which remaineth in his boke standing ether of his reasons against our cause or answeres off the reasons against his â—in bothe yow may obserue that the prouing off that in question by that which is likewise dowbted of occupieth a great roume In his answers to mine he will often acknowledge no argument Because yt is not set down in the precise ether order off propositions or other exact form of Sillogism Which I thinck is a streighter law then any writer hetherto hath bene bound vnto yet I will not refuse it if he vvil giue me an example the matter hauing now bene so largely debated to the vnderstanding of the simpler sort Let him therfore if he dare trust his cause deal that way an other vvhile As for diuers particular faultes in his lodgick and grammer throwgh euill translation considering that they bring no preiudice to the truth in question and hurting not the vnlearneder are quickly espied off the other I am well content to hould back Thus muche to the Answerers both generall and particular accusations and surmises in suche sort aâ— I meane God willing neuer vpon any his importunity to returne vnto againe For as for that page 21. line 3. and suche other as haue manifest confutation in the places owt off vvhich they are raised they are most vnworthy the naming Hauing spoken thus muche for their causes especially which misinformed by the D. haue no good opinion of the discipline now propounded yt remaineth to say something for theirs vvhiche acknowledging yt for the trwth off God doe not stretch forth their handes to bring yt in or at the least not with that endeuour which owght to be Wherin yt seemeth they doe not so fully consider that before alledged of the vse of the discipline the same in the churche that the
so expound it he speaketh as thowghe some one translation onely had so turned And in steed that he should haue said they plainelie and clerelie declare it he saith that yt semeth in some translation to insinuate and where he should haue said the same thinge that I haue sett dovvne he saith some suche thinge And on the other side when he speaketh of the translation Which serueth his humor He saith That yff credit may be giuen to those vvhich be notable lerned men speaking in the plural numbre as thowghe there were a numbre that had so translated it when beside the oulde translator he is not able to shew so muche as one For wher he saith that Pellicane translateth those wordes c. he is a-abused for they are the wordes off the ould translator and not off Pellicane who neuer set forth any translation I graunt that Pellicane being deceiued by the oulde interpretor so expoundeth it but what is that against so manifest both light of the texte and consent off all other learned men which all with one cōsent refuse the oulde trāslatiō as that which dooth opē violence vnto the trewth so that I perswade my self that euen the verie papistes as the monke Isiodorus Clarius hath in this point reformed the oulde trāslator And it is a mere fable that the Leuites could be sanctified easlier or in shorter time then the priestes neither is their any suche thinge in all the law of Moses For as touching the corporall pollutions that happened vnto men by touchinge of thinges which the law counted vncleane and common or off what other meanes soeuer men were made vnmeete to come either into the congregation of God or other societie of men the purgation and clensinge accordinge to the kind off pollution was the same and in the same time not onelie vnto the priestes and Leuites but also vnto the common people and this answere is manifestlie ouerthrowen by the wordes off the text for in that there were some priestes sanctified as well as the Leuites it proueth manifestly that the cause off staie was not in the time that the ceremonie off sanctifing required for then that should haue also staied the rest off the priestes And wher he saith Surelie the verie circunstance off the place doth proue that sence to be true there can no wordes be sufficient to declare this bouldnes For wher the holie ghoste doth assigne the cause off the fewnes off the priestes in the worke off the lord in plaine wordes for that the leuites were more vpprighte in hart to sanctifie thē selues then the priestes he would make vs beleue that the cause of their fewnes in that worke was that which he hath imagined wherof there is not a lettre in the scripture For that there were to few priestes to fleay the sacrifices I graunt that the Leuites helped the priestes vntill other priestes were sanctified I likewise graunte but that the cause off this fewnes was either the want off nombre off those which were in the order and degree of priesthood or for that more time was bestowed in sanctifying the priestes then the leuites which he imagineth I denie and against his imaginatiō oppose the manifest wordes of the holie goste In the place also off the 30. of the Chronicles it is manifest that the people were more earnest then either the priestes or the leuites And althowgh the answerer haue here neither corrupte translation nor vntrue exposition nor patch off reason to set against it yet he wil not yelde him selfe to the truthe The holie goste declaring the readines off the people off Iudah in assembling them selues so spedilie and withe so generall a consent and their zeale in breaking downe the monumentes of Idolatrie first at Ierusalem as appeareth bothe in the last verse of the 29. chapter and in the verse goinge before this place and afterward in the whole contrie off Iudah as appeareth in the beginning off the nexte chapter iff he had said nothinge els yet it might haue bene gathered But when he addeth immediatelie after he had spoken off the readines and zeale off the people that the Leuites and the priestes vvere ashamed Iff this be not the cause I would gladlie learne of the answerer what should be And the Rabbins althowghe they often times wringe the wordes off the texte to couer the shame off their nation and especiallie off those which were in publike charge yet durst neuer attempte to striue against suche light off wordes as be here but in bothe those places off the Cronicles confesse the faultes off their priestes and leuites And one of thē in this place giueth this reason why the priestes ād Leuites differred their sanctifiyng of them to the worke of the lorde namelie for that they could not beleue that king Ezechias mēt good faith and therfore held of and stode aloufe because they suspected that the king would returne to his fathers traine of Idolatrie as it commeth often to passe in those that serue the time which waite vppon what side the wind will turne And that owght not to seme so strange a thinge vnto the answerer considering that beside this place there is example off this vntowardnes of the priestes and Leuites in respecte off the people in an other place for when king Artaf hasta had giuen leaue vnto the Iewes to returne vnto Ierusalem for the aduancement off the seruice off God with Esra it appeareth that there were of all sortes off men which willinglie accōpanied Esra in his iorneye but of the the leuites either priestes or which were simplie leuites ther was not founde one vntil suche time as Esra was faine to vse his authoritie which the king had graunted him for the causing of them to come Vnto the three next sections being reproches I answere not for it is vnworthie to be answered which he speaketh off contrarietie with my selffe because I acknowledge the Bishops my superiors which would haue equalitie off the ministerie To the next pag. i3 I answere IT is not enowghe for yow to corrupt the holie scripture sentence by sentēce but yow must also ouerthrow at once the meaninge of thre whole chapters togither semeth it a smale thinge in your eies to cōfound thinges diuerse but yow must mingle those which are cleane contrarie For S. Paule dothe not in the eight ninthe and tenth chapters speake against those which strine aboute owtward thinges but quite contrarie disputeth against those which meinteined the free vse off all owtward thinges withowt exception not against the spiced conscience off some weake brethren that made scruple off thinges wher was none but against the senseles cōscience of those which vnder pretence off libertie off owtward thinges gaue occasion of daungerous falles vnto the weaker brethrē and which cōsidering onelie what was in the owne nature lawfull had no regard to the circumstances off place and persons wheryvpō he sheweth thinges otherwise in them selues lawfull to be throwgh circumstances as towching the
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
diuersitie betwene the lawe and the Gospell whiche I haue alledged maye be fetched from those lerned men whiche handle this poincte yt is enowghe for me so to haue helped the answerer owte withe that whiche he trauailed with that I haue not onelie shewed howe this cause is nothinge hindered but greatly helped therby Yff the plaine wordes off the Prophete Zacharie will not serue for our pourpose what shall become off your cause that hathe neuer a worde of the scripture let vs then heare why it will not serue Because forsoothe by that meanes the parentes shoulde haue powre of deathe vppon their children and therfore their muste some other sense be sowgthe then that vvhiche the vvordes doo proporte Wherunto I answere that Moses shewinge vvhat owghte be doone agaīste those false teachers whiche goe abowte secretly to vvithdrawe frō the trewe worship of God saithe that allthoughe he be his brother his soōe his dawgther or his wiffe he shal not spare but fill them Tell men owe I praie yow doothe not Moses meane there truly and as his vvordes sounde that the false teacher shall die If yow dare not denie yt then yow see yowr reason vvhiche yow heere assigne is nothing vvorthe for there also yt is commanded to the father to kill his sonne Now if yow liste to lerne yow maye perceiue that by thes vvordes vnderstanded simplie there is no powre giuen to one priuate man to kil another nor for the parente as a priuate man to kill his children but this manner off speache is grounded vppon the lawe off God vvherby yt vvas prouided that the witnesse vvhiche had accused shoulde throwe the firste stone againste the conuicted person for so muche therfore as boothe Moses and Zachary after Moses wil haue the father accuser of his owne childe if the knowledge off his inticemente to Idolatrie remaine vvithe him alone therfore also they ascribe the killinge of the giltie person vnto them as a thinge belonginge vnto the dewtie off the accuser But seeinge this sense please the yow not let vs heere what yow bringe Yf saithe he yow will referre yt to the tyme of the gospell then this is the true meaninge if to the time off the lawe then that Yf al be gospell yow speake vve muste needes beleue yow ▪ yf your wordes haue no further aucthoritie then yow gyue them by Good reason and conference off the scriptures then castinge a waye the sense whiche hathe warrante off the manyfeste wordes off the Scripture yow shoulde haue confirmed by substanciall argumentes that whiche yow haue set downe The prowde Sorbonistes and Magistri nostri off Paris did neuer vsurpe a more absolute auctoritie and more owte off rule then this is And yt is to bringe in an intollerable Tyrannie into the churche off God and lordeshippe not to be abydden Whiche when I vnderstande off all interpretations off men be they neuer so lerned and sharpe muche more off suche wooden interpretations whiche the answerer thruste the vppon vs But tell me Good Sir what difference is there betwene yowr firste interpretation and yowr seconde For iff vnder the gospell it be lawfull as yowr exposition suppose the for parentes to kyll ther children whiche shall prophecey falsely what leue yow to the Iewes wherin they differ from the Christians and tell me also howe yow differ herin from that whiche I set downe that Idolatrie ovvghte to be punished vvithe deathe vnder the gospell But pardon me I thinke I see yowr difference which is that the Iewes muste doo yt accordinge to the lawe off Moses and the Christians accordinge to the lawe off whome why kepte yow backe that Surely iff the Christians be bounde to doo yt as yowr interpretation saythe they are bounde to doo yt by the lawe off Moses for I knowe no other lawe off preceptes but that There is yet another difference whiche yowr wordes maye gyue suspicion off that is that the Christian parentes shoulde rather put them to deathe then be withdrawne by them so that the Iewes haue a symple commaundemente to put them to deathe but the Christians haue yt vnder condition yf they can not otherwise kepe still the trewe worshippe off god But where and in what shopp is this difference coyned Whose Image and superscription beare the yt the Doctors What Paules no Whitgyftes I knowe him not yt is not good For howe shall they be sure they shall not be withdrawne by him onles they procure hym to be put to deathe And althowghe they were owte off perill off beinge withdrawen how are other prouided for whome he maye corrupte And yff it were possible that poison which he hathe coulde not hurte any other where is the reuenge off Godds glorye whiche hathe bene dishonored by suche false teachinge and in the maintenance vvheroff the zeale off the children off God aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the lawe dothe consiste Thes differences betwene his interpretacions he giueth incklinge off but the folye off them was so apparante that he durste not laye them open And althowge vve haue alredy to manye interpretations by one yet here comethe the thirde And this is an allegorie whiche expoundeth killinge confutinge Where firste the answerer shoulde haue remembred that he condemned in the Admonition allygoryinge as Papistical vvhiche in deede is not so muche Papisticall as Anabaptisticall allbeit they fetched their allegorie from two famous men maister Hoper and Maister Alasco Here yt is Catholike in him that was there Papisticall in them then obserue Good reader howe he that chalenged the Admo For makinge the holy scripture a nose off wax and me that I make yt yt a shipmans hose hathe here set vpp three interpretations off one and the same place Off vvhiche althoughe neuer a one can stande vvith a nother yet becawse he thinkethe they all make for him he stickethe not euen to strike hym selffe to gyue a pricke vnto the truthe And as for maister Luther I answere withe Ierome whiche albeit he did not so well practise it him selfe yet in one place of the smaller Prophetes that cometh not now to my minde saithe that to seeke for an alligorie vvhere a Plaine and litterall sense maie be had is to seeke a knotte in a rishe Seinge therfore the scripture meaneth here as it speaketh and calleth a spade a spade and a figg a figg to expounde killinge confuttinge and corporall vveapons spirituall and heretikes heresies is by Maister Luthers Good leaue owte off season Futhermore if Maister Luther shoulde by confutinge off their herysies shut owte the corporall punishmente off deathe he hath the Answ interpretation whiche he calleth thē true meaninge off the place for enemie So that either maister Luthers meaninge was that they shoulde not onely put them to deathe but also confute their heresies or els yt serueth as well to ouerthrowe that whiche the answerer hathe set downe as that which we mainteine But obserue here I beseche yow the shamfull practise off the Answ If Maister Caluine or
then a dowsen lines of the place from whence he rente this Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen he addethe yt semethe therfore that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god and to the oulde institution as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeste a people together vvithe certaine learned and godlie bishopes ad other faithful mē hauinge skill in thinges shoulde choose a pastor and a lytle after Let therfore thes provvde bishops and folish Abbats goo shake their eares for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election shoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull instructed by the counsels off learned men for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one so ovvghte not the rude and vnlearned multitude chalenge vnto yt selfe alone so great vveighte off the election c. Let vs nowe see whether the Ans be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger Firste who denieth that Paule and Barnabas did chuse elders and ministers there When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente and direction off the action there is no reasonable man can Imagin that we shut them owte off the election But iff yow thinke that because maister Bullinger saithe they chose therfore he affirmethe that they chose alone and withowte the churche thes wordes can by no means proue yt his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth Those vvhiche thincke meaninge the papistes that the bishops and Archbishop haue povvre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture Therfore I lefte the at Crete that thovv mighteste appointe elders tovvne by tovvne and againe take heede thovv laye not thy handes rashely of any but vve ansvver that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches nor to haue them selues alone doone these thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election or ordination other men in the churche shut ovvte For the Apostels and elders did create bishops and elders in the church but communicatinge their counsaile vvithe the churches yea and vvithe the consente and approuing off the people vvhiche dothe appeare plainly by the election and ordination off Mathias c. And there citinge howe Moses did cōmunicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people he addeth And so no dovvbte did blessed Titus althovvghe he had hearde thovv shalte appoincte elders in Creta yet vnderstood that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly vvithovvte the aduise off the church And because this place is cited also to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke that the Election 14. Actes shoulde be made by Barnabas and Paule let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before sayinge That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche to chuse and ordeine fit ministers hathe been shevved before in the second sermone off this decade by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the vvorlde Ierusalem and Antioche vvheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons but also Matthias the Apostle the other did set aparte to the ministrie the tvvoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas vvherunto is added that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed or directed off Paule and Barnabas did chuse by voices elders or gouernours off the churche Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes whiche is here in question Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe that thow mighteste vnderstande that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse are not as he falsly pretendeth drawne from the godly writers but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes whose they onely be The places whiche I alledged proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture to ascribe that to the principall in an action whiche is commen to them withe other then that althowghe S. Luke had made no mention off the election off the churche but onely saide that Barnabas and Paule chose yet therby coulde not be concluded that the churche had no intereste in the election but onely this that Paule and Barnabas were the cheife in that action Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue whiche he procured onely and layed no hand vnto howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul and Barn. whiche they bothe procured ād had some doinge in and therfore that example of al is moste apte for that wherfore it is alleadged I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken seing he saith that yt rather appeareth that the people permitted the election off those gouernours to Moses The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe for after that in the 9. verse Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours in the nexte verse he saithe that the people accepted that commaundmente and thowght off yt as a thinge equall Therfore it is moste vntrwe that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe for then they woulde haue answered that yt was not meete for hym to committe the election vnto them but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled to doo yt him selfe And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse vpon the wordes I toke c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose then cōfirme yt for it semethe to haue a relation to the gyuinge ād presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses but off the people also as appeareth in the 22. verse and in the booke off numbers where the lorde doothe not onely attribute this sendinge off spies vnto Moises but vnto the people Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections ordeine those whiche were chosen before and confirme the elections whiche are made Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election so this confirmation off Moyses did not deuoure that powre off election whiche he had gyued them but theyr elections and his confirmation made vp a full creation of those gouernours Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate I haue answered Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge shewe who bore the swate in the makinge of that decree But yet in that the letters were written in the churches and not onely in the Apostels and Elders names and for that the decree is ascribed vnto them by whome the letters are subscribed yt is manifeste that that consente and subscription off the people occupied some rowme in that decree Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied that the people had to doo in yt and gaue consent but giueth asmuch to the church as I in saying the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels
gyuen vnto the people againste their vvill nether by oppression of mighty men vvhiche is detestable let the cytisens or clergie be dravven to gyue their consente And thus muche for answer to yowr Councels To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers is to fetche yt out off the higheste courte off heauen And I was not constreined vnto it for off more then halfe a score reasons brewghte whether one off them be once moued by yow I leaue it to be iudged This commaundement pinched yow so that albeit yow pretende lawghter yet I dowbte not but yt is Sardons lawghter that is to saie from the teethe owtwarde where yow saie there is no worde which signifieth an election yt is yowr olde boldnes off denying that which is as cleare as the none daies Where also yow saie that it speakinge off layinge on off handes can make nothinge for the election off the church I beseche yow syr how doo yow proue that Timothe hathe the choise of ministers ys it not by thes wordes that he is bidden not to laie on his handes and haue yow not saide that by the layinge on off handes the whole solemnitie off creatinge ministers is vnderstanded this is faste and lose and not onely as Teconius said that that vvee vvill is holie but when wee vvill and as longe as vvee vvill Belike the laying on off handes signifieth nothinge or if it doo and not the consente off the people Why doothe not the Answ tell vs what And where he goeth abowte to finde some differēce in this and that vvhich I saie off the layinge on of handes by the Eldershippe and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente speaketh ones twise and the thirde tyme accordinge to his olde manner of repeticiōs He purposely as seemeth passeth by my answer to that obiection that not the people but certeine that is to saie the elders in the name off the people did laie on their handes as it is to bee seene in other places vvhere the gouernours in the name off all the people laie on their handes vpon the sacrifice for synne Where yow will mee to speake in good earneste If I had onely to doo vvith such a trifler I woulde either answer nothinge or els as such a one is worthie but because I haue to doo with the church off God for iudgement off the iudiciall and Ceremoniall law and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing I refer my selffe to that I haue saide before Yff this I haue alledged off layinge on off handes vpon the ordeined bee a Ceremoniall lawe which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Christe then the Apostels vvere iniurious vnto his deathe that translated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnder the lawe into the churche vnder the Gospell Therfore in this poincte yow haue to doo with the Apostles and not with me For as vnder the lawe the gouernoures and the people consentinge into one action testified the same by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onely so vnder the Gospell the elders and people consentinge in the election off one doo testifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onely Where yow vvoulde proue yt abrogated because yt yt is ioined with other thinges which are abrogated I haue shewed howe that is an engyne to wreste owte off the handes off the church all the morall lawes that euer vvere vvritten Where yow saie there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes for that God had chosen them Yow mighte haue vnderstanded that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onely were vsed to the ministerie yet all that tribe was not applied that vvaies but as many as vvere thowghte enoughe to supplie that office and those also not at all aduenture but by choise accordinge to their habilitie I feare not Maister W. the iudgemente off the greateste enemies I haue and frendes yow haue in this cause but that their owne consciences shall vvitnes vvithe mee off my faithfull alledginge off the scriptures and off yowr either notable ignorance or very euill conscience And in thes iestes off yowres and accusations off my byndinge men vnto the Ceremoniall lawe and bringinge them to Iudaisme and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe Were yow not a fraide by my sides to thruste thorowghe Cyprian Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the ministerie by the voice off the people owte off the booke off nombers vvhere mention is made also off the preistes garmentes vvhich vvas ceremoniall Or vvere yow not afraide thus to handle Maister Caluin His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus vvhose speciall argumente is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers which hath an other scope He onely vppō that it vvas cōmaunded that Moses shoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation concluded that the peoples consente ovvghte to be had in the ministers choyse and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the same grounde and further also the comaundement that the people shoulde laie on their handes to conclude as muche He toke his place from thence where nether in the chapiters before nor in that owte of the vvhich he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence becawse other thinges in this chap. vvere ceremoniall but that I muste needes be thus iested on and my discretion so greatly required in handlinge the scripture Therfore I saie that I citing this place am no more Iewish then the Apostels then Cyprian then Caluin Where I alledged for the establishing off that vvhich he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law that the grovvnd of childrens baptisme standeth vpon the ceremony off Circumcision He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptisme but that the Leuiticall priesthood was no figure off the Ministery off the Gospell is deceiued For certein thinges in the Ministrie off the lawe were figures off thinges in the Ministrie off the Gospell as their anointinge signified that none maie bee admitted vnto the ministerie off the Gospell but those which haue giftes meete for that purpose as our Sauiour Christe him selffe owte off Esai expoundeth yt Euen their sacrifices vvhich off all other thinges are furthest from the ministrie of the gospell shadowed out the mortyfyinge off synne by the sworde off the worde off God that the mynisters mighte offer the people vnto God an acceptable sacrifice throwgh Iesus Christe as appeareth by Saincte Paule And the lawes off the leuiticall priesthoode are not onely figures off our ministerie but often times also rules to directe yt by therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preisthood before he vvas called off God the vvriter vnto the Hebrewes concluded the callinge off our Sauiour Christe to his preisthood so farre different from the preisthood off Aaron so wee conclude that no man maie put his foote into the ministrie oneles he bee called Thes argumentes
if Maister W. answer be good are auoided vvith a floute that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus and Nombers that they carie vs to Iudaisme c. Yt is vvell the D. hath not to doo vvith the Anabaptistes For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawse vvhich hauinge so sure groundes in the scripture ▪ is here by him laied open to their mockerie For he saith that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptisme off Children When our Sauiour Christe speaketh there onely off those vvhich vvere off discretion as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptise those whom they haue made scolers off Christe by their doctrine And therfore for so much as the Apostels coulde not teache children nor coulde not make them disciples by teachinge before their baptisme yt is manifeste that he speaketh not there off childrens baptisme And this might he haue learned for his vse in the same booke off Zuinglius oute of which he hath taken so manie thinges to no pourpose And it is not onely Maister Zuinglius answer but other learned mennes vvhich haue had to doo vvith that secte As for the promise alledged that god is our God and the God of our seede albeit that bee the grounde wherupon the holy sacramentè off Baptisme is ministred vnto infantes yet yt is not sufficiente vvithout addinge the commaundement off God touchinge the circumcision off yonge children For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promise vnto Abraham had commaunded no circumcision at all or had onely commaunded yt to be gyuen to those off discretion yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to haue circumcised his infantes yet they shoulde haue remained vnder the promes So that vvhether Yow vvill or no wee muste come to reason from circumcision vnto baptisme Neither is that yow alledge of Circumcision to haue beene a figure off baptisme sufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes vvherwith yow snare yowr selfe For albeit yt bee a figure off baptisme yet yt is aceremonie and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe and yowr answer is generall againste all reasoninge from the ceremoniall lawe vnto that which is established vnder the gospell Therfore I vpholde still that yovvr ansvveres here and in other places tende to spoile vs off diuers pillers and principall buttresses off our religion Where he saithe he condemnethe not other churches which haue appoincted other orders of electing pastors I reporte me to thè reader whether the wordes be generall and vvhether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose be likwise Nether can the D. shewe any reason why in Geneua vvhy in vvhole Dominions in Germanie Why in Scotlande in Fraunce also in the tyme off their peace this order off election by the consente off the people shoulde bee good and pernitious in England Which notwithstandinge owghte to haue bene shewed if there be anie I expounded the worde ovvght as reason vvheroff the lawe is founded and experience vvhich is often times the interpreter off the lawe tawgte me to shewe that vvhere the consente off all can not bee had ▪ there the thinge shoulde passe by the moste parte of those which haue intereste And where yow affirme that lawiers doo saie that that sentence is to bee vnderstanded of compartners or iointe tenantes in some howse or possession and not off the interest off bodies politike I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they professe and therfore iff that be shewed me I will reste in that interpretation But the reason assigned that it seldome commeth to pas that they will all consente semethe not so stronge consideringe that there is not so great violence doone vnto the wordes off the lawe which may not be founde in other places if by the worde all the moste parte be vnderstanded Especially when allthowghe all doo not agree yet all haue had free voice in that matter And where yow saie that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions that is not materiall For I laie not so muche weighte of this sentence as thowghe the cause should rise and fall vvith it I mente that as much credite mighte growe vnto the cause by this as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moste part off which kinde off reasons not onely orators but the scripture yt selfe diuers times vseth And therfore if I gaine by this lawe that the ordinarie choise off ministers owght to be by the people I hath at I loked for But yt is to be obserued that where the A founde faulte vvith me for mitigatinge the necessitie off the worde ought by this exception if it maie be he notwithstandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions wherby the necessitie which he saithe that worde importeth is quite ouerthrowne And if those condicions be trewe then be like I did well vnderstande the worde ought the vnderstandinge wheroff he can not aforde me Yt is well you be no lawier For yowe that are so liberall off a dinners talke as to tell vs off Many together and Many senerally with so many exceptions to so smale pourpose if yow had beene studied that waies woulde haue troubled vs all for then yt is like vvee shoulde haue had alwaies Cesar for Christe and Paule the lawier for Saint Paule the Apostell But marke vvhat a trymme waie he hathe founde to proue that the whole parishe chuseth when the bishopp onely chusethe that they are willinge to haue hym whom they are compelled whether they vvill or no to receiue Yea and not onely that but that euery minister is chosen by the whole realme that is to saie by those which neuer sawe him nor heard off him But hath he forgotten firste that it is our controuersie whether the parliament haue doon well in establishing off suche an order off makinge ministers and whether this egge off the bishoppes election laied in propery could by the sitting vppon off the Parliament although neuer so godly leese the poysoned nature it had before If that bee not agreed this deuise that the people chuse when the bishop be-because yt was so ordeined by all estates serueth not This libertie as hathe bene shewed is a peece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased vnto his churches by the sheddinge off his precious bloud wherin they owght to haue stood and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate or set ouer to others then to giue awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen wherunto this is annexed Moreouer we speake off an electiō wherin consente is to be gyuen as ofte as the church is destitute off a minister and he off consente ones gyuen for euer We off an election which is passed by all the howsholders off euery church he off that vvhich vvas passed by a fewe burgeses in the vvhole realme We off a free election and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue againste yowr will. Now the Papistes may clap their handes for againste all the argumentes that Maister
the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew forsomuch as according to his saying for one in the church which heareth profitablie three doo the contrarie yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche there muste be thrise as manie euill as good Onles peraduenture he will saie that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche vnto the worldes end and especially to that present churche which was vnder the crosse Ys it trewe vvhich yow heere affirme can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent Howe cometh then to passe that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche How happeneth yt that yow affirme that Timothe and Titus off their owne authorities withowt the consente ether off eldershipp or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches in Ephesus and Creata that in Cyprians times which were times of persequution the electiō vvas made in some places vvithowt the people verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner which should set the◠together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche and the institution off God had so suffred the churches woulde haue submitted them selues and their voices in their elections vnto the order of one And besides that christian humilitie and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it Onles they woulde rather quittethe church which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale which yow for yowr aduantage ascribe vnto a persequuted church HEere he denieth that he hath saide that the consent off the churche in the choise off the minister can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate All the reasons vvhich he alledged are to proue that the election vnder a Christian magistrate can nor be safelye and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche and euē here he saith it is in thes times pernicious and hurtfull But that which can not be safely and cōueniently doone owghte not be doone muche les that vvhich is pernicious and hurtfull Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake yow think as I haue saide that the churches election can not stand with the time of A Christian magistrat And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste is nothing worth For if it be daungerous if yt be inconuenient as yow say to committe the election to the churche he owgte not althowge he woulde giue it into her handes Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter because the Emperours made lawes off the election which they woulde not haue doone yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God yow are to farre wyde For wee reade that Aza made a lawe that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord should die And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God and receiue the sacramentes and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God and vnchangable nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise Yf the reasons vvhich Musc bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche can be answered then I will leaue them and followe his authoritie otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it vvith his lefte hand yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte T. C. concealed nothing subtilely in leauing owt that the ministers ovvght to be blameles he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for or againste the pourpose If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place ether he should haue omitted this or spoken yt againste his consciēce For I propounded onelye that the election off the churche was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate and cōfirmed by them and the D. can not denie but this place proueth that fully whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles or no I shewed before Therfore this disputation is with your selfe and with nothing which I set downe And if I had so set it downe whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt considering that the sentence which I lefte owghte to be shut in a parenthesis I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader As for the reasons vvhich are vsed for that pourpose the one that he would haue said decre◠and not wee decree is answered before Thother of propounding three owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles is not sufficient to proue that the Emperour did not set before him their example seing that in the principall poinctes and causes off the election amongest which the chusers are the efficient he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles Yea if it be well considered yt shall be easely perceiued that he stucke too curiously and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp of which one should be taken so in a grater multitude he would haue three out of which he would drawe one And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles were onely as yow would haue yt that the moste pure should be taken yet yow can not denie but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way to haue most incorrupt ministers that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours I will not striue with him in this point because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be wherat he breaketh owt alwaies from that which is in question Yt were an euill interpretation to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie the cheife off the citie especially considering that the decree of other Emperours vvhich followed ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people And considering that the Nouelles in latin are corrupte in many places yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code and other lawes by them especially with such open violence And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families put the heades off the citie but for this also I will not striue What ether against my cause or for yowres conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three which were chosen after that sort Likewise what gaine yow if which is vntrue or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides a man should accord yow that Charles the great was Emperour of the French and not off the Duch Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of The shelter also yow seke in those wordes according to the canons off that
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
diligent reading where not daring as it semeth say planting he hath chaunged it wheroff the question was for tilling belike becawse he remembred he had saied before that yt is proper vnto the Apostles to plant Where againe his cawse receiueth an other wound For if planting be by preaching and not by reading then in this respect preaching is more effectuall then bare reading Then that he saith killing and watering may be applied to reading he should to mainteine his cause haue saied as well or as muche To that off the people perishing vvithovvt prophecy vvhich is not bare reading but expounding and applying off scriptures he answereth that the people muste needes decay in holines and knowledge where there be no preachers but why doth he say decay and not perish as Salomon speaketh where his cause falleth flat to the ground For if the people perish where be no preachers althowgh there be readers and cōtrariwise preaching withowt bare reading saueth engendreth faith and nourisheth yt yt is manifest that the word redd is not so effectuall as preached and that by bare reading ordinarily there is no saluation and therfore also no faith both which he before denied And if the people perish withowt preaching which haue already bene lightened by it how muche more except the Lord worcke extraordinarily must they perish that neuer had preaching Where he saith both preaching and bare reading be necessary in the church yf he meane publikely as yt is true in preaching so yt is vntrue in simple reading For although yt be very conuenient which is vsed in some churches where before preaching time the church assembled hath the scriptures redd in suche order that the whole Canon theroff is oftentimes in one yeare run thorough yet a nombre of churches which haue no such order of simple reading can not be in this point charged with breach of Gods commaundement which they might be if simple reading were necessary Considering especially that some off them beside their set sermons expounding euery day paraphrastically two chapters with the principall pointes theroff taken and applied vnto their auditors gaine that which the D. owt of Bucer presupposeth to come onely by simple reading that the scripture therby is made familiar vnto the people Where he saith they be moste profitable the wine off this error so fumeth into his head that it hath taken away the vse off his toung for two thinges to one and the same end can not but very vnproperly be saied most profitable For if preaching be moste profitable to worcke faith by then is not reading if reading thē is not preaching it is true that mē sometime speake so when the questiō is not of comparison betweene those thinges they speake off but otherwise it is altogether straunge Where he saith preaching is more apt for the ignorant and vnlearned and that he denieth not this the vntruth theroff is apparant For if preaching be more profitable to the vnlearned then reading and de at least as profitable to the learned then yt is false that he hath set downe with so great assurance that reading is as effectuall as preaching seing the effect we speake off is the profit off the hearers Yet as a man strawght off his wittes striketh him selfe he ouerthroweth this also in an other place for in asking why Iosia caused the lawe to be redd ▪ except it had as great force to perswade redd as preached he signifieth the contrary off that heere affirmed Considering that the greatest part was off the commen people and that grosse as those which newly came owt off filthy idolatry Further if preaching were as meet for the learned and meeter for the rude then his reason there which imagineth that Iosia would not otherwise haue caused the law to be redd onles there had bene as great fruict in reading as preaching falleth flat Considering that the D. confesseth that preaching is more effectuall to the people and I thincke dare not deny but it is as effectuall to the learned Therfore the reason why Iosias cawsed the law to be redd was not becawse reading was as effectuall as preaching but because being both redd and preached yt profiteth more then when yt is symply redd Where he saieth marry haue bene called by bare reading he saith yt againe and againe but withowt all proofe For where altogether owt off place his pourpose being to proue that reading edifieth more then preaching he faith God vsed reading at a meanes to call Augustine yt is vaine seing the question is whether he vsed that onely meanes for yt appeareth that August had greatly profited in godlines before that time wherin he heard the miraculous voice which sent him to reading Beside that the voice he telleth off going before his reading will not suffer that that reading onely may chalenge the whole meanes off conuersion Likewise that he affirmeth owt M. For off many browght to light off the gospell by reading onely he maketh not nor as I am perswaded could make yt appeare Although yt be confessed that that may be doone by the Lordes extraordinary worcking which feedeth sometime with quarles in the wildernes Yet yt is hard to shewe any time wherein there haue bene professors off the gospell and God hath not raised vp some ministers which haue ether openly or secretly as the time required preached the word considering that euen in those desolations of the church the Lord by his tvvo vvitnesses promiseth that the church shal not be destitute off true ministers Where confessing the vvord preached and red all one I shew notwithstanding that as the fyre stirred gyueth more heat so the vvord as yt vvere blovven by preaching flameth more in the hearers then vvhen it is redd he answereth that this is to ione with the Papistes in condemning the scriptures of obscurity but reason he can shew none and it is all one as if one should be charged to haue saide that the Sonne is darck for that he affirmeth yt lighter at noone daies then at the Sonne rising Then he muste vnderstand that we place not this difference of lightsomnes in the worde which is alwaies in it selfe most lightsom red and preached but partly in the ordinance off God before noted making that the speciall meanes partly in the darcknes of our vnderstanding which withowt the aide off preaching can not come to sufficient knowledge off yt Lastely he must learne that althowghe all thinges necessary to saluacion might by reading onely be vnderstanded yet yt followeth not that a man may by reading onely be saued For yt is one thinge to haue the scripture in his head another to haue it in his heart one thinge to vnderstād yt another to beleue yt which beleef being onely able to saue ys ordinarily onely ingendred by preaching Wherby also we haue a peece off remedy against another poison spit forthe in this diuis that to those which vnderstand the scriptures they are as whot and lightsome red as preached
For where in his former assertion although not in wordes yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God ordeining pastors and Doctors for continuall functions in the church of whom there is no vse if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching that being wrung owt off his handes in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned yet rather thē all this cobweb should be vnweaued he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally but particularly and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching as off the vnlearned But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching and to make them a pillow to sleepe on or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone shame not to alledge that they cā profit as much in reading the scriptures or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study as by hearing a sermon in the church Vnto the example off the Eumuche vvhich reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach he answereth that he vnderstood yt not and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader Which although it be vntrue the wordes off his former booke being generall withowt so much as the least signification off exception yet it is nothing worth For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned for that he had no teacher to shew him the way Wherby followeth not which the Papistes conclude off this place that the people owght not to read the scriptures seing the Eunuch which both knew and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide exercised him self diligently in reading off them but this followeth that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it withowt preaching Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer Now for all the false accusations off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture c. once heare yowr one proces that yt is yow that strengh then their handes For as in popery by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse then to preach a sermon they set reading in the head and preaching in the taile so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching hasten after them and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching pastors in that he holdeth simple reading as effectuall as preaching heere in making bare reading better then preaching preferreth the readers aboue the preachers But in this later absurdity first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin but at least I should haue deuided it between them As if I were matched with Musculus but the truth is that he maketh not for him For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple which is nothing to that in hand where good reading is cōpared with good preaching And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues and contentious sermons c. compared with orderly reading For in this comparison it were not hard to proue which is blasphemy that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy then the bookes off the kinges namely if Lyuy be simply red and the other with interlining and mixture off popishe interpretation If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape would not all men hisse at him this is his refuge also to salue that he saied off homilies red better then sermons preached His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers and therfore not moued once by their doctrine in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established is insufficient for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching doo conuert men vttenly peruerted and at enmity with all truth and consequently with the ministers theroff how much more will he therby conuert papistes which by doubting whether the gospell be truth or their superstitions haue ground or no cary not that enmyty the other doo which haue no such entrance Then yow muste vnderstand that as in the Sacramētes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred worcke by his spirit but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome so yt is in preaching wherby yt cometh to passe that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading wrought it not by that meanes onely but vsed therunto the help off preaching which went before For as greene wood laied vpō fire and her with many strong blastes as laste set on fire and flaming with one and that a soft blaste is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste because it wēt immediatly before euen so the word off God blowen by preaching and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading as preaching Considering that so it might comme to passe which is absurd that contemplacion off the creatures should profit more then reading For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises and other doctrines in the creatures for example off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his in the prouision for birdes off the ayer and rich array off the lilies off the field yt may comme to passe that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching and lying as yt were dead in the heart may after by sight and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues be quickened yet none off iudgement will say that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this then preaching Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true yet he is inexcusable thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half after the wound giuen by such straunge speach which owght to haue gone with yt if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good thē preaching which is cōtrary to S. Paules meaning who sheweth that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them as off other nations because he was letted to comme and preach vnto
generall and proue that no man maie vsurpe that tytle But to cleare that matter in an other place he sheweth that it is to muche to attribute vnto a Kinge the name of the head of the church and that they are blasphemous that gyue hym yt Nowe where he saith here and repeteth p 301. that in respecte off the supreme autoritie which god hath gyuen vnto the magistrate he may be called the head off the church the supreme authoritie ouer the church being onely gyuen vnto Christe yt muste folow that this name onely belongeth to him Where partly in this diuis but more fully pag 301. he saith althowgh in respecte of life and nutriment gyuen and spirituall blessinges powred into the body off the church our Sauiour Christe is onely head yet towching the externall societie and owtward gouernement the magistrate also may be head off the church yt is first to be noted from whom this prouision was browghte hym For as Harding borowed yt off Pighius so the D. pourueiers had it from Harding or frō both For to ouerthrowe this doctrine that Christe alone is head of his church this distinction is browghte that according to the inward influence off grace Christe onely is head but according to the owtward gouernement the being of head is commen with him to others For answer wherunto I referre my self in parte to that I haue written before off the absurde distinction betwene the gouernement off the churche by the mynisterie off men instituted off our Sau. Christ and his spirituall gouernmente For that if there be no head but Christe in respecte of the spiritual gouernemente there is no head but he in respecte of the worde sacramentes and discipline administred by those whom he hath appoincted forasmuch as that is also his spirituall gouernmente And euen in the owtward societie and assemblies off the church where one or two are gathered in his name ether for hearing off the word or for praier or any other church exercise our Sauiour Christe being in the myddeste off them as mediatour muste needes be there as head and if he be there not idle but doinge the office off the head fully yt followeth that euen in the owtwarde societie and meetinges off the church no symple man can be called the head off it Seing that our Sauiour Christe doinge the whole office off the head him selfe alone leaueth nothing to men by doing wheroff they maie obtaine that tytle Wherfore whosoeuer in seeking to profite the churche according to his calling doth any thing to the preseruation off this body he doth yt as an eye an arme an eare or as some other member and not a◠head off it Now to his distinction owt off Andreas who after he confesseth that Christe is onely head as he gouerneth the church with his spirite addeth that for somuche as the church off God being visible is not onely ruled by the word but by sword off the magistrate that there be so many heades off the church as rulers off countries Where firste let it be obserued that he quoteth no place peraduenture leste some ether wordes or circumstance might gyue the answer Then that he enhaunceth his credite whith the tytle off a learned man where for any thing I haue redd and I haue redd his defence off the real presence against Beza yt might well haue bene lefte owte Howbeit both for his corruption in iudgement and otherwise I refer the learned reader to that Vrsinus a learned man hath written against him Wherby he may vnderstand howe this commendation was without discretion onely to serue the present tourne And I beseche yow Sir who is this Vergerius whom Andreas reprehendeth which you haue so nakedly set downe clothing Andrue so gorgiously This is is good reader Petrus Paulus Vergerius with whome whether the other be once to be compared ether for sownd knowledge or innocencie off lyfe I leaue to their iudgemēt which haue redd and knowē them both and withall whether if an argumēt of autoritie be off such weighte as the D. will haue yt he hath by this testimony made a hole in his owne cawse In the distinction yt ys firste to be obserued that as Andrue dissenteth from the truth so he doth from Pighius Harding and the D. for when he opposeth the gouernement by the sword vnto that off the worde making yt off the word a peece off the spirituall gouernement and then saith that there be diuers heades off the church in respecte off gouernement by the sword he gyueth to vnderstand that his Iudgement is that in respecte off the ecclesiasticall mynisterie our Sauiour Christ is onely head Which may yet better appeare in that he saith ther are so many heades as rulers of coūtries and saith not so many heades as bishops off churches And if this be not his minde yt will stand the D. vppon to bringe owt other wordes to declare yt Now Pigh Hard. and the D. vppon the bare word off Athanasius will haue heades in respecte off the ecclesiasticall gouernement they one ouer all churches he one in euery diocese Wherin the reader may see that yf this rottē seede take rooting howsoeuer the Princes honor be pretended the fruiete perteineth also to the bishops In which distinctiō off bishop head off his but not of the whole church albeit the D. woulde gladly seme to slip from the Papistes yet they will not so parte with him For beside that I haue shewed how the godly learned vppon that our Sau. Christ is head cōclude as well against heades of particular churches as against one head off the vniuersall this Iudgement off his is the deuinitie off two Popishe Councels Constance and Basile Where the Bishops those especially before partners in this robberie off our Sauiour Christ with the man off Rome and namely he off Antyoche displeased that the Pope alone should haue all that boutye to make Roume for them selues shut his headship vp in the compas off his owne countrie opening their eyes to so muche trwth as serued their owne tournes But to come to the poinct off Andrues distinction let yt be consydered fyrst that our Sauiour Christ ys in one respecte creator and preseruer of man kinde in another redemer ād vpholdder of his church For he created once ād preserueth daily as God coequal with his Father ād holy spirite but he both redemed once and daily gathereth his church as mediatour of god and man in which respect euen yet in his infynite glory he enioyeth he is an shall be vnder his father and holy goste vntill hauing put downe all rule and power he shall render the kingdome to his Father Secondly yt ys to be considered that as our Sauiour Christe doth thes in dyners respectes so he doth them by diuers means To wyt that as God symply he hath ordeined certein means to serue his prouidence in the perseruation of man kynde so as God and man he hathe ordeined other certein for the
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
conceiued off an opinion they had that those tvvo vvere not vvorthy to rule ouer them The vvordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely vvhom he had set apart for the ministerie off the gospell but his vvordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them but vnto the commen people Wheruppon it followeth that our Sauiour ioining the people vvith his disciples in the dehortations vvhich he maketh here could not as in the other place vvhere he speaketh vnto them alone speake off the proper listes and boundes of the ministerie and therfore there is no cause vvhy M. shoulde be glad that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples and Princes here so far as towcheth the disciples he maketh comparison betwene them and other ecclesiasticall ministers There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince vvhich agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell it followeth that he may be well thowght there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition damnable in bothe estates but also those thinges which being commendable in Princes agree not vnto them Off the other side all thinges coÌ„mendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall agreing likewise to theirs it followeth of necessitie that there he must needes speake against ambition onely Vnto the next diuis being reproches I answer not onely vvhere he chargeth me vvith falsehood becawse I affirme he saith the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by where nothing is wanting or to much I answer that there be not the same wordes but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke which he mainteineth not and refuseth to haue added thinges vvhich haue their ground off the word I leaue to the reader to iudge whether although my wordes are vvith the fullest yet I am far from his meaning Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract The Ans skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke saith he can finde nether head nor foot in my reason Thus I will finde both They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures thowght no ministerie lawfull not conteined in them but the Scribes and Leuites did so therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull not conteined in scripture Against this he taketh exception first to the translation which is altogether friuolus for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication and it is not vnlike but by the article the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet spoken of in the law beside the Messias but rather any Prophet extraordinary to vvhom the Lord shewed him self ether by vision or dreame the interpretation vvhich he citeth owt of Beza altereth not the argument but rather strenghtheneth it noting therby that it vvas necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet but off one which vvas especially noted and marked owt by the scripture SecoÌ„dly where he saith that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet he would not haue denied it and addeth for proofe theroff our Sauiour Christ saied he was one he is abused for our Sauiour saying that he vvas greater then a prophet and that the Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming denieth that he vvas a Prophet and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet and ministerie off the gospell more excellent then the first and inferior to the other If he vvould haue had a coulor off his defense he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him which calleth him the Prophet of the highest but that could not haue serued the turne nether For that the vvorde is there taken generally for those which teach the will off God which is often as hath bene shewed Yowr third exception that all the functions are not reckened vpp becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest or Leuite is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf and that vvas one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn Last off all where in the margent he saith that the Pharises made false argumentes and that I doo the same he speaketh vnaduisedly for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them yet that their reason vvas good herin it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture and for that our Sauiour Christ meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn asketh whether it were from heauen or off men In vvhich wordes condemning all ministeries vvhich men institute and that come not from heauen he confirmeth the Parises argument vvhich vvas that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law should haue bene gilty of breach of the law if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocatioÌ„ Thus appeareth that there vvas both bead and foot in this argumeÌ„t and that by all likelyhood true vvhich he could not impugne but by vntruth The 8. and 9. diuis vvhich follow haue as commonly the rest nothing but bare sayinges which becawse I shall meet withall againe I vvill heere passe ouer â–ª onely in the eight yt ys to be noted that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge Wherin ether he saith nothing or he would haue vnderstanded more then he dare veter For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances and ceremonies coÌ„formable to that off the Iewes it maketh nothing to the pourpose but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries then the Iewes had as his answer to that I set downe doth require then I see no cawse vvhy he should not haue so saied But that although he would say yet he durst not and therfore spaâ—â— thus vncertenly that vvheÌ„ I should shew the coÌ„trary he in this generall speach might haue some corner to hide him in Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke that is to say tharchbishoprick a new ministerie thus yt is proued That which hath diuers efficient cawses is an other and diuers but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off tharchbishop and those expressed in the word off god That there are diuers efficient cawses is manifest for that the office off Bishop Elder and Deacon being by God him self the office off tharchbishop was deuised and browght in by man And although this be proof enough to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers which haue not their offices limited by the prescript off Gods word yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall
the places harde by and lykewise a deacon three which together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare and determine the causes in debate Now if for euery accusation of a bishop there were assembled 12. bishops at the least and that when the matter required haste for euerie accusation of an elder six and off a Deacon three beside their owne bishop and that those might be taken in places harde by all men maye vnderstande that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas which might be assembled with suche commoditie For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then which is nowe how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre with so greate charges with suche longe absence from their churches with suche delaie and suspence off the purgation off them whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God and edification of their churches Herof yt may easely be seene that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop rained not onely vpon greate cities and greate townes but euen ouer litle borowghes and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde And althowghe there be diuerse cawses why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention of the bishopes of vplandishe townes as that in those tymes of persequution a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them which had a bishop and for that the stories for the moste parte keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops which by godly policie off the churche were placed in the moste peopled townes yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers which are expressedly called bishops off small townes or villages As off one Zorâ—cus Bishop of the village of Coman of Mares Bishop of a small towne called Dolicha of Asclepius Bishop of a small towne in Africa and of others vvhich partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome and partly shall be shewed God willing in discouse off Cyprians testimonies I leaue also to speake of Gregorie bishop of a small cytie called Nazâ—anzum of an other which was priest of the Castle Cumane that is Bishop both which are as well forbidden as to haue a bishop in a village I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren wheroff albeit yt is moste certein that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord who angrie with his churche sente suche a dearthe yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne were partly vnaduised partly proceeding off ambicion and that not alwaies after one sorte but taking encrease and gathering strenght with the time So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe and restraincte in the ende brake owte and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced In the Africane Councell yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour whersoeuer aÌ„d in what diocese soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche that those proselytes and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne and the Councell there confessethe that they deserued so to haue Wherupon yt folowethe that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted so manie Bishops at the leaste there might be in one onely diocese And if this were a good lawe and equall as the Councell confessethe what cause can be assigned why yt shoulde be taken awaie as appeareth yt vvas afterward In the second Councell of Carthage yt vvas decreed that those dioceses which had no bishops should haue none aÌ„d those which had should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese that the people desyring a Bishop if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto might haue another bishop Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese where there had bene none yt is apparaÌ„te that their dioceses were not the tweÌ„tith parte so large as ours For is there any likelihoode consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles as it is with vs And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy the nomber of the faithfull encreasing there might be at the instance off the churches and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined yt vttereth the cause vvhy diuerse parishes rounde abowte vvere the diocese of one bishop namely for that here and there in this aÌ„d that towne there vvas scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell were hable to make one sufficiente congregatioÌ„ to maintein the ministrie And therfore ordeined that wheÌ„ the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places then also counsell might be taken off moe Bishops Wherupon vve may gather this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop vvhether he vvoulde haue any moe Bishops throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe that the nombre off Christians increasing they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops but ordeining them Elders and Deacons together with the name off the Bishop reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie and gouernement to other belongyng And this ys that vvhich that excellent Martir of God William Tindall shortly noted vvhen the multitude off Christians encreased and the church vvas endovved vvith greate possessioÌ„s the bishops made theÌ„ substitutes vvhich they called preistes and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no in his diocese maie appeare by this shameful ambition vvhich euen theÌ„ beganne to shew yt selfe For so far vvas yt that they vvoulde departe vvith any already gotten that they assaied to encroche and sometimes by stronge hande vpon the boundes off others as appeareth by the manifolde debates which they had one with another aboute their precinctes testified in the booke of Councells Another cause off this dearthe was an order taken amongest theÌ„ that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes and other straungers from the churches as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche so he enioyed them Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese but also to other dioceses if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe which what a greate
off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell saithe in this sorte but because our prouince is spred forthe larger and hathe bothe Numidia ād Mauritania ioyning he saith not my prouince but our prouince which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled as the course off the epistle declareth Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop nether yet off two Mauritanias as the D. saieth but off one onely Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this was trowbled and from whence soeuer he haue yt Eusebius is off more credite in that matter Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion shutteth him with in the precinctes of Carthage saying he vvas bishop of the parish vvhich vvas in Carthage And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa aboute 150. yares after when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces and this weede of Ambitiō had spred yt self much further in the churche In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage had not him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania or Numidia for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea so that contrary to the D. interpretacion men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage but Afrike Spaine and almoste the whole easte partes yt is to be obserued that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred and lōgest armes at the laste he hathe met with one which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence Why hath he cut of the feet off yt why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes Because I haue not the booke I will set it downe as the bishop of Salisbury hath doone Cyprian vvas a bishop the mightiest and noblest off all bishops For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage and Afrike vvhich vntill this daie is famous off him and by his meanes but ouer all the vveast and in a manner ouer all the East likevvise ouer bothe Northe and Southe Thus appeareth he hath in this place lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde and for that the Bishop turneth vveast he turneth Spaine where if he cōplaine of the bishops translatiō althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason seing Hesperia is opposed vnto the East yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey yt is like to note Italy For so Ierome writeth that they vsed in times paste to call Hesperiam Italy especially whē it ys vttered simply withowt addyng vtter most nowe all maie vnderstād that Gregories meaning was not that Cyprian vvas ruler off all churches in the worlde in that sense the D. meaneth and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world but that he was famous amongest all and sowght vnto for coūsaile frō all partes Wherby appeareth that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste owte off their certeine congregacions was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion purchased by opiniō of singular learninge and godlines wherby others willingly woulde bothe aske and folowe their aduise in gouernement off their churches And if the D. vvil haue Cyprian archbishop and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince to haue peereles autoritie withowt controlemēt of any other Archbishop what off the Prouince of Italy ascribed vnto Cornelius what off that wherby he saithe none owghte to goe ouer sea for triall off cawses for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop for a churche a Prouince for the particular place where the quarell riseth all that circuite which is not parted by sea yet this one assertion off his that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte VVeaste Northe and Sowthe ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke hathe swallowed vp all the rest and made them all but Suffraganes and by this reckening not onely men must passe the sea but manie seas to haue ende off their cawses Laste off all iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage considering they are in the same and felowlike degree Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe in this cause and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop he will be deliuered off a Pope and a Pope off the largest cyse and longest laste he must be compelled whether he will or no to expounde this worde gouerned by consailed or excelled or some other worde as kolde and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane or archbishop Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane I haue shewed He saithe I forget my selfe which call him in one place metropolitā they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with For he might haue remembred that I said that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse or helpe off his I passe the nexte diu hauing nothing but importunate and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him that Cyprian was Metropolitane that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop that I gyue the Papistes aduantage in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope as an archbishop that is to saie nothing for ether Vnto the nexte I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer that writers passe by the title off archbishops sauing that it is to be noted that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops here to gyue some coulor vnto his answer he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all but to manie bishops c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe I referre yt to the reader That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops besides the testimonies I alledged before may be seene
althowgh yt be not expressed yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoritiâ— â–ª ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge or els he receiued yt off the Apostels But the firste is confessed vntrw therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly in that he and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour to haue made him inferior to the resâ—dâ—w I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte but the D. bancke being discouered I thincke he will chaunge his creditors Where he saith yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes as he coulde not tary for their voices it is ridiculous For I would know first what testimonie of scripture he hath to proue yt doon so soudenly Then who is so sensles as not to vnderstand that the eleuen standing with him could not in a trice ether by voice or finger lifted vp caste that charge off speaking then vpon Peter so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth no time could wante for that matter He saith further Act. the 1 and 15. considered yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste and rule the action and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices much les at euery particular meeting which first is a grosse petition off that in question Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste yet by what ether sentence or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste during his liffe Thirdly to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision let him shew vs how he can proue that S. Peter was cheif in that actioÌ„ of praier where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice likewise in the election of the deacons where the calling together off the disciples the exhortacion vnto them the praier for the Deacons chosen the laying on off handes is as indifferently giuen to all the reaste as to Peter All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste that one was president in the election But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn or Iames or any the reste can not be shewed by one title off scripture yet our D. doth assure vs and as he saith owt off the scripture that Peter was the lodesman Where I shew that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels to take vpoÌ„ him the gouernmeÌ„t is to doo him iniury he answereth he was appointed vnto yt off God and lawfully As if to be appointed off God and lawfully could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him or their electioÌ„ were not the electioÌ„ of god For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe imÌ„ediatly it is that in question wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe But this iudgemeÌ„t offmine hath no ground off scripture or ether learned or auncient autoritie What ground off scripture I haue let the reader iudge off that already and to be alledged in the next diuis For autoritie I haue shewed that Musculus whom he hath made his pillor in this behalfe affirming that Peter vvas in many places the cheife is againste him which saith he was alwaies cheife and for me as giuing therby to vnderstand that this cheiftie varied and was sometimes put vpon other Which is also confirmed by Caluin who in saying the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte that he should speake firste confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels and that he had yt not alwaies Secondly I haue here alledged the Scoliaste that all vvas doone by commen consente Wherto he answereth he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife which is vaine For if all were doone with consente then Peters forespeaking a parte of that which was done was likewise What wil he say to Gratian his good expounder which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe for he confesseth that Peter vvas chosen by the Apostles Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed that this presidentship off Peter vvas not doone imperiously vvith dominion or povvre he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction not of the king him selfe is so Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie and is before confuted For if the vvorde imperiously vvhich I vsed be taken often in euill parte yet may not I beseche yow a Prince doe princelike vvhich is the vvorde the Scoliast vseth may not the higher power doo thinges vvith powre both vvhich the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter But there is in superioritie humilitie If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded I graunte but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes will not suffer to commaund Princelike in thinges lawfull I denie yt He addeth that in rule and autoritie meaning ciuill there is seruitude If he meane to the lorde I graunte and then yt is nothing to the pourpose If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples which onely can haue place here I denie yt for the cause before assigned Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike or with powre for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand saying the king him selfe may not doe so yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically nothing with oppression which two are aswel denied vnto Princes as to bishops then the D. answer would haue serued But when he saith he did nothing princelike nothing by povvr yt is manifest he tawght that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels Where he addeth the Scoliaste saith Peter rose c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels to let pas his translation which in steed off disciples vnderstanded of all the church hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly or during his liffe both which are in controuesie there is not a worde Where in the entrance
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌ„e So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hâ—â—beit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌ„d yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌ„ce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber â—f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌ„men wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ„ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌ„d liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receâ—â—ed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons