This declaration and determination you take to be a grosse and a palpable errour For you are not ashamed you saie of Berengarius doctrine But Sir if this were a grosse and a palpable Errour how say you then did al those Patriarkes Archebisshoppes Bishoppes Abbates Doctours and learned Priestes grossely and palpably erre Did the Emperours both of the Grecians and of the Latines the Kinges of Fraunce Spaine England Hierusalem Cyprus whose Ambassadours and Oratours were there representing the personnes of their Princes and people to them subiecte did al these also erre with al their people and subiectes grossely and palpably This question then I demaund of you M. Iewel At these daies and in that age where was the Churche of Christe By you al erred grossely and palpably Berengarius him selfe whose doctrine was there condemned had both recanted his Heresie that you holde now and was longe before that time dead and buried There was not a man liuing at that daie who was knowen in the vnitie of the Churche to maineteine that doctrine whiche that Councel condemned and whiche you now doo mainteine Only Almaricus Almaricus is noted of the Chronographers to haue liued about the time of that Councel and to haue holden the heresie of Berengarius Pantaleō Bernard Lutzenburg Gaguinus Lib. 6. Pag. 48. But M. Iewel hath plainely renounced this Almaricus He said before of Abailard and Almarike and certaine other we haue no skil They are none of ours Then as I said there was not so muche as one man knowen at that time in the vnitie of the Churche and allowed by your iudgement to haue holden the opinion by that General Councel condemned This being so either that Councel helde the vnitie of Christes Churche or elles at that time Christe had no Churche at al. But Christes Churche endureth for euer Pag. 32. you haue your felfe before confessed it therefore we must beleue that the said Councel helde the vnitie of Christes Church and the doctrine by the Fathers of the same approued is the true and Catholique doctrine of the Churche and your Sacramentarie opinion to the contrarye at this daie is a condemned heresie In like sorte by Induction we might discourse of the other General Councelles But this one for example maie suffice to proue that the same pointes of doctrine which you cal grosse and palpable Errours M. Ievvel acknovvlegeth al the partes of doctrine vvher in he varieth from vs to be approued by the Churche in General Councelles fully discussed and confirmed in Councelles are no Errours at al but Catholike verities and truthes tried and confirmed by the highest and most infallible Authoritie that is in earth And we haue al good cause to reioise M. Iewel that by the force of truthe ye are driuen so freely and so plainely to graunt vnto vs the confirmation and Approbation of Councelles for al such pointes of doctrine as we defende against you termed by you modestly I trowe and without heate or choler Grosse and palpable Errours He must needes be a great fauourer of your secte that vpon the warrant of your mouth only wil holde the general determinations of Councelles for grosse and palpable Errours And very grosse must he be that seeth not the proude Luciferly sprite breathing forth of you in such a malapert and sawcy controllement of them whom God ordeined in their time to gouerne his Church No no M. Iewel your mouth is no iuste measure your penne is no right square your verdite is very insufficient for a dew resolutiō thereof to be taken in matters of such importance Yet haue you forsooth an example for your so doing and that of no lesse man then S. Augustine him selfe For thus you inferre to iustifie your former asseuerations Iewel Ibidem August Contra Maximin lib. 3. c. 14. Therefore vve maie iustly saie to you as S. Augustine sometime said to Maximinus the Arian heretike Neither maie I laie to thee the Councel of Nice nor maiest thou laie to me the Councel of Ariminum either of vs thinking thereby to finde preiudice against the other But let vs laie matter to matter cause to cause and reason to reason by the Authoritie of the Scriptures Harding How litle this place of S. Augustine serueth M. Iewels purpose and how falsly by him it is alleged How your therefore foloweth M. Iewel I see not The .19 Chapt. excepte you wil reason thus The later Councelles haue confirmed grosse and palpable errours Therefore you wil not that we should laye them against you no more then S. Augustine would laye the Nicene Coūcel against Maximinus the Arian See you not howe vntowardly this your therefore foloweth For admit that we graunted you that the late Councelles were erroneous which we wil not ne may not in any wise graunt you yet you wil not I trowe saie that the Nicene Councel also was erroneous If the Nicene Coūcel were not erroneous but a most Autentike and Catholique Councel what deduction can you make from the one to the other If S. Augustine had refused the Nicene Councel as you refuse the late Councelles that is if he had condemned the Nicene Councel of grosse and palpable errours as you doo condemne the later Councelles then had the example of S. Augustine serued your turne this being presupposed that these later Councelles were suche as you sclaunder them to be Now S. Augustine doth not so put of the Nicene Councel either as an erroneous Councel or as an Authoritie insufficient whereby to controlle the Heretike but partely bicause the Heretike quarelled about the name of an other Councel at Ariminum which was no lawful Councel in deede but a schismatical and heretical conuenticle and yet were there at it 800. Bishoppes but for wante of Damasus the Popes confirmation Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 23. Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 21. as Sozomenus and Theodoritus doo write it was accompted for none partely also bicause he sawe him selfe sufficiently instructed otherwise with holy scriptures to confute the Arian For these two causes to cut of occasion of longer brabling and to drawe the sooner to an issue for it was in an open disputation before a multitude not in priuate writinges carried to and fro S Augustine was content to laie aside the aduantage that he had of the Nicene Councel vpon condition the Arian would brable no more of the Councel of Ariminum This did S. Augustine of Christian policie and by occasion then ministred and not as geuing example to others to shake of al Authoritie of Councelles as you doo M. Iewel of a great many Againe you require vs to presse you no more with the late general Councelles of Laterane of Constāce of Florence of Trent and such other as the Arian required not to be pressed with the Nicene but you haue not so much as the name of one Councel of your parte for the whiche we might by waie of composition yelde our Councelles that you also might yelde
debet esse iudex in causa propria The Pope maie not be iudge in his ovvne cause Harding The Pope maie be iudge in the cause of the Churche Though Leos Authoritie be not greate in his ovvne cause The .29 Chapt. yet in the cause of the Churche being so auncient so holy so learned a Father by your owne graunt it must be very great The wordes you bring are of your owne forging Wherefore as ye haue hitherto benne a forger of Doctours Scriptures the Canon lawe and Gloses so now you are become a forger of the Ciuile lawe With what wordes the lawe is written here anonne you shal see But be it true that Vlpian said for so you should haue said The Emperour alleged for Vlpian and not the Emperour as your skil in the lawe vnskilfully telleth vs no man maie minister lawe vnto himselfe Yet neither he not the Emperour euer forbad but that a man maie truely reporte of his owne matters Now Pope Leo that holy man and great learned Clerke in the place by me alleged doth not minister lawe vnto him selfe in his owne cause but for the better gouernement of the Churche and that peace and good order maie the better be kepte in the Churche reporteth a difference or diuersitie of power to be emong Bishoppes with likenesse of Order and honour as S. Hierome in his epistle to Euagrius coÌ„fesseth them to be of one merite and of one Priestehood In declaring whereof he speaketh of the right that the Bishoppes of the See Apostolique S. Peters successours ought to haue in the gouernment of the vniuersal Church through out the whole worlde This M. Iewel was not his owne priuate cause but the cause of the whole Churche in whiche he might geue iudgement But M. Iewel guilfully seemeth to put the case as though there had ben many Catholiques that called Pope Leo to lawe for vsurping the authoritie not dewe vnto him and as thoughe he had ben defendant against them al yea as thoughe he had stepte vp into his iudgement seate and there sitting as a Iudge in his owne mater had pronunced sentence for him selfe Whiche thing he did not nor euer was there any catholique man that laid any suche kinde of vsurpation to his charge he neuer stoode as defendant nor sate as Iudge in his owne cause but discretely and truely as occasion serued signified vnto the worlde his lawful authoritie and his â—uccessours as Kinges vse to doo in their titles of honour and stiles If M. Iewel wil calle his double wiued lawier vnto him and with him peruse the lawe that beginneth Qui Iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet â— Qui iu risdiccioni ff de iurisdict omn. iudic neque vxori vel liberis suis c. whiche is the true lawe that he should haue alleged and wil consider that Princes Kinges and Emperours vse to doo in their owne causes by very order of lawe and if he wil therewith searche out the right meaning of the lawe L. in priuatis ff de inoffic testamen In priuatis iudicus pater filium vel filius patrem iudicem habere potest he shal finde both that he hath fondely vainely and rashly alleged a lawe that he vnderstoode not nor made any thing to his purpose but onely to fil vp paper with wordes and also that it is one thing to saie Nemo debet sibi ius dicere as he falsely allegeth the Lawe and that it is a farre other thing to saie Qui iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet neque vxori vel liberis suis neque libertis vel caeteris quos secum habet For so is the lawe vttered by Vlpianus As for your marginal note out of the Decrees you shew how barrein and poore your mater is that for defence of it you are faine to runne for helpe to notes put in the margent of the Glose a very poore shifte God wote To your marginal note I answere The Pope as there the Glosse saith if there be a mater in lawe betwen him and an other man about a temporal thing ought not him selfe to be iudge in that case and to take the thing into his owne possession before it be tried whose it is but to choose Vmpeeres to sitte vpon it Now marke what followeth good Reader 16. q. 6. Consuetudo tamen si vult esse Iudex in causa Ecclesiae potest esse yet if he list to be a iudge in a mater concerning the Churche he maie be Certainely no one thing more concerneth the wealth tranquillitie and good order of the Churche then that whiche Leo intreateth of in the epistle 84. to Anastasius the Bishop of Thessalonica whiche in my Confutation to good purpose I alleged Iewel Pag. 111. Concil Aphricanum cap. 105. Superbum seculi typhuÌ„ It is vvel knovven that the Pope hath sought for and claimed this vniuersal authoritie these many hundred yeres Pope Innocentius vvas therefore reproued of pride and vvorldely lordelinesse by the vvhole Councel of Aphrica Harding The Aphrican Councel vntruly reported by M. Iewel The 30. Chapt. The Pope hath not sought for that whiche our Lorde gaue vnto S. Peter no more then S. Peter sought for it at Christes graunt The fame he maie iustely claime for so muche as it perteineth to the feeding and gouernement of Christes flocke and to the strengthning of the faithful as being the Successour of S. Peter That you saie of Innocentius is vtterly false He was not so reproued of pride and worldely Lordelinesse as more like a proud worldely Lordeling then an humble plaine handler of Goddes Truthe you saie Neither be those wordes superbum seculi typhum which you laie forth in your Margent to be founde in any Epistle of the Aphrican Councel to Innocentius nor be they spoken or written at al against Innocentius as you beare vs in hande Neither was Innocentius then a liue when the Aphrican Councel was holden but departed this life long before I graunt there is extant an epistle of the Aphrican Councel to the learned Pope Coelestinus in whiche Epistle Innocentius that blessed man is not once touched Neither was the charitie of that whole Councel so smal as to speake so il of a holy Bishop so long before departed The manner of those Fathers was to praie for suche specially for the Bishoppes of Rome deceassed rehearsing their names in their Masses and in no wise to reporte so il of them How be it in that whole epistle Pope Innocentius is not so muche as once named nor spoken of There we finde these three wordes fumosum typhum seculi that is to saie the smoky pride of the worlde or the vaine stoutenesse of the temporaltie but in a farre other sense and to an other purpose then M. Iewel pretendeth Whether he rightly vnderstode the place or no I haue good cause to doubte It seemeth that the Bishop of Rome in the cause of Appiarius whom
Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
wordes be simply beleeued let my Confutation of the Apologie be vewed and there I shal be founde touching these odious pointes of these princes Variance with the Popes of their time to haue vttered these woordes farre otherwise then he here reporteth Confut. fol. 339. b. Concerning the case between these three Kinges of England and the Bishoppes of Rome for the tyme being I say litle If they did wel and the Bishoppes euil they haue their rewarde the other their punishment If otherwise or how so euer ech one at Gods iudgement shal haue his deserued measure But be it graunted al were true ye say though we know the more parte to be false Henrie the secōd S. Thomas Arch bishop of Canturbury King Iohn What though king Henrie the Second were euil entreated of Pope Alexander about the murthering of S. Thomas the Archebishop of Canturburie and King Iohn likewise of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius the thirde about the stirre he made against the Church for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop of Canturburie Henrie the .8 This is no iust cause to forsake the Churche King Henrie the eigth likewise of the Popes in our time about matters yet fresh bleeding Is this a good cause why ye who haue nothing to doo with Princes matters now ended and buried should forsake the Churche change your Faith change the whole order of Religion and condemne al before your time for a thousand yeres Bicause the Bishoppes of Rome haue done euil wil ye geue ouer the Faith of the Churche of Rome Bicause the Popes did wronge to Princes wil ye doo wrong to your selues Bicause the Popes were at Variance with these three Kinges wil ye be at Variance with God Bicause they excommunicated them wil ye excommunicate your selues I haue heard of a foole that being striken of one standing a looffe of would eftsones strike an other that stood next him But I neuer heard of any so foolish that seeing an other striken would therefore kill him selfe Verely your Apostasie and departing from the Catholique Churche is to weightie a matter to be defended with so light a reason Thou maist see good Reader that here I take not vpon me in Defence of those Popes to answere vnto these matters nor shortely as M. Iewel saith nor at length nor in light manner nor in sad manner which matters he calleth Tyrannical iniuries and iuste causes of griefe The more cleerely to shewe how litle good matter our new Vsurping Clergie haue to bring for the excuse and Defence of the Alteration they haue made in Religion and of their Schisme and departing from the Catholike Churche bicause in their Apologie they alleged these Practises of the Popes only I demaunde their tale for their better aduantage being graunted to be true whiche yet I saied expressely was knowen to be false for the more parte what reliefe their cause could haue thereby and how the euil doinges of the Bishoppes of Rome if it were graunted they did euil therein could be drawen to Defence of their owne worse doing To whiche demaunde M. Iewel by his silence in his pretensed Defence maketh al the worlde witnesse Defence Pag. 733. how vnhable he is to answere Howbeit in that place he vseth his common sleight by cutting awaie the chiefe parte of my tale wherein lyeth the weighte and so dischargeth him selfe of the paines of answering Any booke may so sone be answered Touching these Popes and these Kinges when M. Iewel or any of his felow Ministers shal truely and with sufficient reason proue vnto vs that Henrie the Second did wel when he gaue occasion that the blessed Martyr S. Thomas Archebishop of Canturburie was murdered that al King Iohns attemptes against the Churche for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop and primate of the same prouince were iuste and right and that King Henrie the eight did wel and according either to the holy Scriptures or doctrine of the auncient and learned Fathers when he tooke vpon him to be Supreme Head in earth of the Churche of England immediatly vnder Christe whiche no temporal prince euer tooke vpon him before and likewise when for maintenance of the same title he hanged headded and quartered so many holy and learned men of al degrees now blessed Sainctes and crowned Martyrs in heauen when I say either he or they or any of them shal proue this much vnto vs in such sorte as I said before then wil we say with them ô worthy Kinges ô naughty Popes yea then wil we saie too ô the crowe is white Neuerthelesse I doo not here iustifie al the deedes of the Popes But what so euer they did that is no sufficient cause why these menne should forsake their Faith and departe from the felowship of the Churche Item there Iewel But concerning the Maiestie and right of Kinges and Emperours M. Harding telleth vs they haue their first authoritie by the positiue Lavve of Nations and can haue no more povver then the people hath of vvhom they take their temporal iurisdiction Confutat Fol. 318. b. Harding If I haue herein spoken euil geue witnesse against me of euil Ye would faine finde a faulte I perceiue if ye wiste wherein You seeme not wel to vnderstand what you saie nor whereof you affirme But you allege the Scriptures Per me Reges regnant Prouer. 8. By me Kinges doo reigne And there is no power but from God very learnedly forsooth As though the auctoritie Rom. 13. that Princes haue by the positiue lawe of Nations and the power whiche they haue of the people were not of God as who vseth that meane to conueie that power vnto them Item there Iewel M. Harding euen in the selfe same booke vnder certaine general threates chargeth your Maiestie vvith disordered presumption by the example of Ozias the vvicked King vpon vvhom as he vntruly saith God sent his vengeance for the like Confut. fol. 298. a. Harding You would faine the Queenes Maiestie should conceiue hatred against me I perceiue M. Iewel and thereto you applie al your skil and cunning But Sir who deserueth more thankes at God and the Princes for the time being he that telleth them the Truthe and in time geueth warning to beware of Goddes Vengeance before it be to late or he that for his owne wordly interest holdeth his peace and leadeth them into a wrong way from the whiche if they returne not backe they are sure at length to feele either the temporal smarte of Goddes Vengeance in this life or the euerlasting smarte in the life to come Ye flatter ye flatter your Princes M. Iewel ye deceiue them ye blinde them ye worke al meanes possible that the Truthe be not brought to their vnderstanding least were it knowen and of them perceiued ye should be turned out of your welthy roumes and driuen againe to Geneua I had almost said Gehenna from whence ye came Certainely ye shutte vp the kingdome of Heauen from Princes and others so
is that you adde that our doctrine is forsaken the worlde through No M. Iewel not so Gods holy name be blessed it is not yet forsaken al England through We knowe it right wel we praise God for it and reioise therein You know it also and it greeueth you at the harteful deepely and specially that diuers haue returned from your lying Religion to the truthe of the Catholique Faithe euen in these last yeres when ye semed to haue most prospered in the sight of the worlde Suche is the nature of truth the more it is pressed downe the more it riseth vp A lie impudently auouched by M. Ievvel and sheweth it selfe Had our doctrine ben forsaken the world through your Gues I trowe in these lowe Countries and your Huguenotes in Fraunce had prospered better But what wil not you sticke to auouch which so boldely yea so impudently doo auouche such a knowen Vntruthe Vntruthe Nay so sensible and so palpable a Lie The Catholique doctrine not only contineweth in Italie FrauÌ„ce Spaine Portugal and Germanie in whole Countries and Territories but euen where your brethâ—â—n are thickest there lacke not Catholiques right many and perfitte among them Yea the Catholique doctrine is preached and published among heathens and Infidelles to the great glorie of God and to the great despite of the deuill and his ministers as it wel appeareth by your selfe M. Iewel and by your wordes whiche before I haue touched If our doctrine be forsaken the worlde through where are we M. Iewel against whom you write so busily Are we out of the worlde Where was the late general Councel with so many Bishoppes learned Doctours and Princes Ambassadours there present al condemning your hainous heresies Were they al out of the world or haue they al now changed their minde and yelded vnto you Maximilian the noble Emperour King Philip of Spaine with al his so sundry and so large Dominions besides the kingdome of Naples and Sicilia the Dukedomes of Millan Burgundie Brabant Holland Zeland Friseland Gelderland the Counties of Tyrol Flaunders Henault and Artois Charles king of Fraunce the kinges of Portugal and of Polonia The states and Princes of Italie with also many Dukedomes Free Citties States of Christendome besides al yet remaining Catholique are they al out of the worlde I can not tel whether I may cal this lye more impudent or more foolish Iewel Pag. 50. Neither there any sufficient cause to the contrarie but that Berâ—â—garius Iohn VViclef Iohn Hus D. Luther Zuinglius Oâ—colampadius and others either for learning or for truth or for iâ—â—â—â—ment in the Scriptures or for Antiquitie may vvel and safely bâ— coâ—pared vvith Lanfrancus Guimundus Abbas Cluniacensis Thoâ—â—â— VValdensis Iohn Fisher and others Harding What difference there is betwen these holy Fathers and those pestilent Heretiques The. 17. Chapt. No no Sir the oddes is exceding great Berengarius Wiclef Hus Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius non comunicabant oiÌ„bus gentibus illis Ecclesiis Apostolico labore fundatis Aug. cont Lit. Petil. lib. 2. cap. 16. did not coÌ„municate with al nations and those Churches which were founded by the Apostles labour Nay by the ful and intier coÌ„sent of al nations Christened assembled in general Councelles they were al condemned Berengarius in the great general Councel of Lateran Anno. 1205. Wiclef and Hus in the general Councel of Constance Anno. 1413. Luther and the rest among whom you may take your selfe for one in the late General Councel of Trent Contrariewise the other Fathers communicated with the whole corps of Christendome then liuing They were Bisshoppes and Doctours of that age lineally succeding in the Catholique doctrine euen from the Apostles and the Apostolike menne Againe these said Fathers are accompted and placed in honorable roumes as Lumina Ecclesiae lightes of the Churche in al Chronographies yea made and written by the Protestantes them selues namely by Henricus Pantaleon of Basil and others of your secte Berengarius on the other side with al the rest are noted in the Chronographies drawen out by ProtestaÌ„tes them selues in the rewe and line of condemned heretiques Thirdly what comparison is there betwen lewde lecherous Luther and that holy Bisshop B. Fisher and blessed Martyr of God Doctour Fisher late Bisshop of Rochester The very writinges of bothe extant doo declare the diuersitie of their spirites Luther taketh his pleasure in Ribaudrie belketh out filthinesse breatheth rancour raileth and reuelleth against the honorable states of the worlde beyonde al measure euen against thâ—t Prince him selfe that afterwarde prepared the waie for your heresies to procede lustily King Heâ—â—ie the eight The writinges of D. Fisher are wel knowen to be modest piththy and learned and at this present highly esteemed in al Christendome So are the writinges of Lanfrancus Guimundus and Cluniacensis Of the others we haue but names only leaft except Luther with the two others whose writinges yet no doubte if euer Goddes truth preuaile wil also at length come to nought and haue the like fortune as the bookes of al other heretikes haue had Iewel Pag. 50. The Councelles ye meane are very nevve and therefore beare the lesse Authoritie for that they be so many vvaies contrarie to the olde Certainely there is none of your errours so grosse and palpable but by some of your late Councelles it hath benne confirmed Harding The causes examined for which M. Iewel alloweth not the Councelles of these last 500. yeres The. 18. Chapt. Guli MalmesburieÌ„ lib. 3. de gestis Anglorum Guimundus Al. gerus lib. 1 de Sacramentis Platina in Innocentio 3. Tyrius lib. 21. cap. 26 Guido Carmelita de haeresibus Platina Palmerius Nauclerus Three causes then there are if I vnderstand you wel why you and your felowes so saucily doo condemne the General Councelles holden in Christendome within these last fiue hundred yeres as the Councelles holden at Toures in Fraunce at S. Iohn Lateran in Rome that vnder Nicolaus 2. to the number of 114. Bishoppes this vnder Innocentius 3. whereunto Patriarkes Archebisshoppes Bishoppes and Abbates out of al partes of Christendome resorted to the number of a thousand two hundred fourescore and fiue Fathers in al which the doctrine of Berengarius was condemned Also the other General Councel holden at S. Iohn Lateran at an other time to the number of 300. Bishoppes both of the East and the West Churche where the Waldenses your brethren were condemned the Councel of Constance where the doctrine of Wiclef and Hus was condemned to the number of 270. Bishoppes last of al the General Councel of Trent to the number of 198. Bishoppes where sundry of your present heresies were after mature discussion with ful consent accursed and condemned Al these and diuers other Councelles for three causes you contemne and despise First for that they are very newe Secondly for that they are contrary to the olde Thirdly bicause al our errours haue benne confirmed in them Your first cause implieth a
Al are committed to thee the one whole flocke to one Neither art thou onely the Pastour of al the sheepe but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours Demaundest thou of me howe I prooue it Forsooth out of the woorde of God Ioan. 21. For I praie you to whom I wil not saie of the Bisshoppes but also of the Apostles were al the sheepe so absolutely and indeterminately committed If thou loue me Peter feede my sheepe whiche sheepe The people of this or of that citie of this or of that countrie or kingdome My sheepe quod he Who now doth not euidently see that Christe did not appointe him certaine but assigned him al Where no distinction is made there nothing is excepted Thus you see how litle cause you had to saie why doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely without farther authoritie Iewel Pag. 103. And if this so large Commission be to Feede and feede so many vvhy then doth the Pope feede so litle Harding The Pope feedeth and why Christe appointed him to be his Vicare The stubbornesse of Heretiques is a lette The .18 Chapt. that his diligent feeding can not take place in many Howe manie Articles of the Christian Doctrine had the peruersitie of Heretiques wrapped vp in a Confusion and brought in doubte that fewe menne knewe howe to vnfolde them The Popes diligent feeding hath so by General Councelles through his authoritie and care assembled vnfolded and disclosed all the false craftes and sleightes of Heretiques that nowe euery man that wil maie haue in a readinesse by perusing the Canons of the Councelles what Doctrine is true and holesome what is false and heretical Of late yeares he emploied his diligence in calling all The Pope feedeth but some refuse his good foode and feede of Poison the Protestantes vnto the Councel of Trent he gaue them safe Conductes to come and departe without danger of their personnes and there during the time of their abode to propone argue and dispute of the pointes in cōtrouersie with al freedome VVhy the Ministers of England vvēt not to the General Councel at Trent most liberal and free Safe cōductes being graunted them But ye of England knowing your owne weaknesse and that ye were not so wel hable to prooue your doctrine in learned Assemblies as ye were with boasting Chalenges and bolde talkes to prate it out of pulpites emong the ignorant at home least with shame ye should there haue ben put to silence and prooued vnlearned wylily absented your selues Notwithstanding libertie was geuen you to come and saie for your Gospel what ye could and as it appeareth in the Actes of the same to frame your safe Conducte if ye desliked the fourme set foorth in the Councel in as ample manner for your owne safegarde and benefite as ye could deuise Iewel Pag. 103. Againe vvhere learned M. Harding to reason thus Christe is ascended into heauen Ergo the Pope is head of the vvhole vvorlde Harding Nay where learned M. Iewel to fashon suche peeuish argumentes of his owne deuise and fathering them vpon his Aduersarie to scoffe at them as if they were of his Aduersaries making If this Argument be naught let him amend it that framed it If it be ridiculous the Reader may see what a ridiculous head he hath that brought it forth My reason dependeth in this sorte If it had pleased Christ to haue remained here visibly emong vs alwaies and to haue taken continual order him selfe for the external gouernment of the Churche we should not haue needed any other general head but Christe him selfe who had ben sufficient But for asmuch as Christes bodily and visible presence through his Ascension was for good purposes taken awaie from vs that we might haue better occasion to exercise faith and the holy Sacramentes it was needeful that in his steede he should leaue some one General Vicegerent In. 24. caput Luca. and Vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose termeth him that should haue ful authoritie to rule the whole Churche The partes of this reason are wel linked together both by diuinitie and also by logique As M. Iewel hath framed it it serueth for nothing but to make sporte emong Prentises I allege not Christes Ascension for the ful and sufficient cause of hauing one general Head as M. Iewel would beare menne in hande if any be so simple to beleeue him The cause vvhy Christe hath placed his Vicare here in his stede Ambros in 24. cap. Lucae but as the occasion why he should place an other in the absence of his Visible person in his steede The necessitie of the Churche that disorder and confusion be auoided and that vnitie be kepte considered together with the great loue that Christe hath to the Churche is the ful cause why Christe placed in his steede a general Vicegerent Vicarium amoris sui the vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose calleth him Iewel Ibidem But ye saie God speaketh not novv vnto vs mouth to mouth c. Harding What rule is like to be if the Scripture be made ruler and gouernour Your drifte is in this place The. 19. Chapt. to put the whole gouernment of the Church quite from the Pope whom Chrysostome as I haue tolde you before taketh to be the vniuersal Head bicause he is S. Peters Successour and to driue vs to deliuer the whole rule vnto the Scripture and that being remoued quite from any one certaine sense and leafte to mennes Phantasies to descant vpon it What vnitie and good Order wil folowe thereof they of Germanie ye of England the Lutherans the Zuinglians the Caluinistes the Osiandrines the Zuencfeldians the Anabaptistes the new Puritanes that now spring vp so freshly and other sectes wherewith the worlde swarmeth haue tolde vs already the whiche could neuer yet come to any good vnitie and common agreement Ye leaue vs also an other sorte of gouernours Apostles Ephes 4. Prophetes Euangelistes Pastours and Doctours of whom S. Paule speaketh If these be the Gouernours appointed by holy Scripture how falleth it out that ye contrary to Scripture haue geuen the supreme gouernment of your Church of England to laye Princes some being vnder their nources gouernance some being women The cas◠thus standing if the Ministers agree not in doctrine hovv shal vnitie be made and the people kepte vnpoisoned If these forenamed the Apostles c. be the right gouernours how happeth it that they can doo nothing concerning Order to be taken for the Churche but by authoritie deriued from a mere laie power If these that is to saie the successours of the Apostles Prophetes c. be the right gouernours what if any of these iarre and fal at square emong them selues as it hath oftentimes ben seene either within the compasse of one Realme or in diuers Realmes and doo poison the people with sundry Heresies to whom shal we resorte to haue them called home and reduced vnto order whom haue
God M. Harding is not hable to shevve vs one Harding The gouernment of the whole Churche exercised by the Popes actually If the Popes manner had benne to bring menne in subiection by the Sworde and force of Armes The 20. Chapt. as it is not whiche thing Kinges haue vsed to doo then had ye as wel knowen the Popes Vniuersal Gouernment whiche you had rather cal Dominion by practise as you doo nowe knowe the Kinges Or were it so that ye fealte so sensibily the paine of Excommunication as ye doo the tormentes that Kinges vse against Rebelles when they once drawe their sworde of correction you would muche more feare to offende the Pope then ye doo now the force of Princes But your manner is alwaies to feare him that hath the sensible rodde in his hande ready at a worde to geue the stroke the Pope bicause he vseth long patience before he striketh and when he striketh his stroke bringeth no bodily paine but causeth a spiritual separation of mannes soule for his contumacie from the vnitie of the Church and from God whiche is not sensibly fealte therefore ye feare to offende Princes and vtterly set nought by the Popes autoritie But what if none of the Popes hitherto euer exercised their vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole Churche of God whiche in deede is not true is theâ—â— right therefore any thing the lesse Not at al. The Duke of Sauoie you know hath in right the Dominion and rule of Geneua yet they of the towne suche is the spirite that your holy Gospel breatheth into the people like errant Rebelles haue kept him out of his right many yeres And what if this be not true that you saie What if diuers Popes maie be named that haue ruled the whole Churche both the East and the Weast as farre as any Christian Emperour extended his Dominion Maie you not then reuoke your stoute assertion You haue read I suppose of the great councel of Chalcedon vnder Pope Leo and of the great Councel of Lateran vnder Innocentius tertius and the Councelles of Florence and of Lions How saie you I praie you finde ye not there that the Greeke Churche as wel as the Latine Churche agnised the Popes Supremacie I denie not but that a fewe Heretiques or Schismatiques perhappes might disobeie him at certaine time and in certaine places But what then So doo rebelles oftetimes disobeye their Princes His authoritie notwithstanding tooke place through the whole Churche emong obedient Christians Iewel Pag. 104. But God be thanked it appeareth already to al them that haue eyes to see that vve haue not departed from the seruile obedience of that See But vpon iust cause and good aâ—ise Harding The 21. Chapt. Yea God wote vpon as iuste causes as they of Germanie rebelled against Charles the fift that noble Prince theire lawful Emperour or if ye list vpon as iust causes as they of Geneua departed from the Duke of Sauoie their lawful Prince or if ye wil wade farther vpon as iust causes as the Huguenotes of Fraunce haue to remoue their lawful king from the godly and accustomed gouernment of his realme by open rebellion now the second time What you accompte seruile obedience Seruile obedience I know not but of this I am wel assured that such gouernment as ye and they of your spirite vse in some places when the worlde serueth your turne for the establishing of your Gospel to worke your policies maie wel be called a yoke made of harde yron whereas the Popes yoke if it must needes be called a yoke Yoke of iron yoke oâ— wood bicause ye speake of seruile obedience is but of softe wood that is to saie light and easie As al theeues would gladly departe from the obedience of their lawful Iudge and cal it Seruile if that might be allowed euen so al suche aduersaries of the Catholique Churche can thinke euery smal cause yea being no iust cause at al sufficient to departe from the obedience of the Pope the chiefe Pastour whose office is to condemne al their Heresies as al your Heresies at this daie are condemned in the Councel of Trent by the Popes authoritie Touching the argument you make à contrario sensu Pag. 104. out of the wordes of Calixtus Epistle in Gratian if you had foreseene the folie of it I dare saie Distinct 12. Non decet M Iewelâ— ArgumeÌ„â— you would neuer haue printed it for very shame The argument is this What so euer is done without discretion of Iustice against the order of the Churche of Rome it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what soeuer is done by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be againâ—â— the Order of the Churche of Rome yet ought it to be wel allowed First your duetie had benne to haue laied the causes of your departure from the Churche of Rome before some lawful Iudge and haue proued the causes so alleged both true and iuste and not to make your selues iudges both of the sufficiencie of the causes and of your departure Nexte your duetie had benne to haue weighed wel this Argument whether it receiueth any deceitful sophistication The folie of M. Ievvelles argument shevved by the like either in it selfe or in his like Is this argument trowe ye good M. Iewel What so euer thing is donne without discretion of Iustice against the order of Goddes lawe it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what so euer is donne by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be against the Order of Goddes lawe yet ought it to be wel allowed And yet is this argument in al pointes like yours Suche Diuinitie suche Logique Wel maie this Logique be allowed in your new schoole at Geneua in any learned Vniuersitie of Christendome certainely it wil not be allowed Looke what faulte ye can finde in the later Argument the same maie ye finde in your owne This later maie be a glasse vnto you to beholde your folio in the first The Glose expressely founde contrarie to M. Iew. Verely where you founde these wordes in Gratian euen there in your owne Glose vpon GratiaÌ„ you found your Argument disproued with these very wordes Hic vacat argumentum à contrario sensu Here the argument deduced of the contrarie sense is voide and holdeth not This you saw or your gatherer for you Yet you would it should out be it taken wel or otherwise Thus you delight to be striking though we can soone heale your woundes For so you thinke to persuade the simple that ye haue muche matter against vs. The places of S. Augustine and of Pius that you allege Pag. 104. make nothing against the Pope therefore I marueile why you allege them seruing you to so litle purpose Perhaps this may be your manner of reasoning S. Augustine would not haue vs to geue ouer to any Bishops be they neuer so Catholique if they happely be deceiued and be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture Ergo
his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt but of the Pope and his vvord they say in any vvise vve maie not doubt Harding Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued no man doubteth thereof But onely what is the meaning thereof And then besides to vnderstand it the better we ioine vniuersal tradition with it and in al further doubtes we say the Pope or the General Councel is the highest and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies as we see by experience betwen the Lutherans and Zuinglians Ievvel Pag. 200. 201. Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding that the scriptures be the scriptures c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false So saith S. a In prooemi in Luc. Ambrose S. b cōt Fau lib. 22. Augustin and c 80. li. 6. ca. 2. Eusebius Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures Harding If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome to discerne the true scriptures from the false shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God to expound the holy Scriptures and also to determine any question arising thereon Neither doo we say that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie but that it is to vs better knowen and as a more liuely so a more plaine teacher then the Scriptures be For if we aske the Scriptures any question Clemēs Alexand. li. strō 1 be it neuer so hard as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted They wil answer vs no more then it is written But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions if the knowledge be behooful for mannes soule health it wil euer make him to eche question an answer and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes 1. Tim. 3. For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth And as you confesse that the Church hath shewed vs which be the true Scriptures so must you likewise graunte that the Church hath the spirite of God to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases yea euen in those which be not expressely written For where is it written expressely that the church of God should haue the spirit of God for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures to approue the true Scriptures and to condemne the false forgeries Luc. 10. Mat. 18. Christe said generally of al matters He that heareth you heareth me Item he that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican Of the Sacramentes of the Churche The thirde Chapter Iewel Defence Pag. 103. 104. M. Harding saith there be seuen Sacramentes vvhich as he saith do not only signifie a holy thing but also doo make holy those to vvhom they be adhibited But hovv can Matrimonie sanctifie a man and make him holy Or by vvhat institution of Christ conteineth it grace in it selfe and povver to sanctifie Harding Ephes 5. S. Paule answereth you thus Ye husbandes loue your wiues as Christ hath loued his Church And then he proueth the wife to be the flesh of the husband as also the Church is the body of Christe And so both waies the Prophecie of Adam is verefied Gen. 2. that two shal be in one flesh Sacramentum hoc magnum est in Christe Ecclesia Sacramēt Mysterie This is a great Sacrament or a great Misterie in Christe and the Churche For we stand not now vpon the worde but vpon the thing What is that great Mysterie First Matrimonie is alwaies a coniunction of two in one both by natural consent of myndes and also if it be consummate by corporal coniunction Now by Christes institution that coniunction is also made inseparable Matt. 19. when he said That which God hath ioined together let not man separate or put a sunder Nowe then this coniunction is made to be inseparable betwen faithful persons it is directed by Christ and instituted purposely to signifie his inseparable coniunction with the Church And whiles it is instituted of Christe to signifie that thing it is made a Sacrament or Mysterie whereunto Christe geueth grace and holinesse for that purpose For when any thing or action is appointed by Christ to signifie a holy thing in Religion that action is thereby made a Sacrament and doth sanctifie the worthy receiuers of it We see that Circumcision might be made and was vsed among some Infidels and to them it was no Sacrament Gen. 17. But when the faithful were commaunded to circumcide them selues to signifie the Circumcision of the harte which Christe should make in them that beleeued by his spirit and grace then Circumcision was made a Sacrament and did sanctifie the worthy receiuer Euen so it is in Matrimonie as S. Augustine saith August lib. 1. de Nupt. Concupis cap. 10. Ephes 5. Quoddam Sacramentum nuptiarum commendatur fidelibus coniugatis Vnde dicit Apostolus viri diligite vxores vestras sicut Christus dilexit Ecclesiam A certaine Sacrament of Marriage is commended vnto the faithful married personnes Whereupon the Apostle saith ye men loue your wiues euen as Christe loued his Churche Huius proculdubio Sacramenti res est vt mas foemina connubio copulati quà m diu viuunt inseparabiliter perseuerent Nec liceat excepta causa fornicationis à coniuge coniugem dirimi hoc enim custoditur in Christo Ecclesia vt viuens cum viuente in aeternum nullo diuortio separetur The thing doubtlesse of this Sacrament is The thing of the Sacrament of Matrimonie that the man and woman ioyned together in Marriage as long as they liue continew together vndisseuered and that it be not lauful for the one to be separated from the other but for fornication For this thing is kept in Christ and the Church that he lyuing with the liuing for euer by no diuorce be separated Here we learne not only that the name but also that the thing of a Sacrament is in the Marriage of Christians which thing doth sanctifie those persons that come worthily to Marriage For as Marriage was from the beginning ordeined to begete Children so by Christ it is ordeined to a higher signification verely not to be separated whiles the parties married together doo liue and thereby to signifie Christes inseparable vniō with his Church The chief signification of Matrimonie And as that vnion of Christ with vs is an inseparable sanctification to faithful men so is the signe thereof a special sanctification to them who married in our Lorde It is knowen that as S. Augustine assigneth there are tria bona matrimonij August li. de Nuptijs Concupisc fides proles Sacramentum Three good thinges are in Mariage the faith or fidelitie of wedlocke which the man and wife must kepe rendring duetie the
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
authoritie to any heresie or errour I denie vtterly neither shal M. Iewel or any of his felowes what so euer be hable to proue the contrarie That any where I haue tolde them sadly and in good earnest that the bishop of Rome is a king if he meane the expresse name of a King I tel him here eftsones sadly and in good earnest and without Saulue la vostre that it is a starke lye Confut. fol. 280. a. The pope hath kingly power yet is he no king In the first place of my Confutation by him coted I say The pope hath a kingly power ouer his owne subiectes euen in temporal thinges and now I tel you here for example he hath it as Moyses had yet he taketh not vpon him to be a King nor chalengeth vnto him that title Neither doth he in his owne person bicause he acknowlegeth him selfe to be no King exercise the function and office of a King but committeth such charge vnto other Laye persons If ye enuie the Pope his kingly power and possessions whiche he holdeth by right beware you be not at length thought vnworthy and remoued from the landes of a Baron and the Earledom of S. Osmunde whiche you holde vnduely If that happen to come to passe where then shal we finde your good Lordship In the other place of the Confutation vpon occasion geuen by wordes of the Apologie I say that the Pope maie rule temporally Confut. fol. 305. b. and more there say I not touching this matter Item there Iewel That vnto him belongeth the right of bothe Svvordes as vvel Temporal as spiritual Confut. fol. 247. b. Harding What so euer I bring in my Confutation concerning both Swordes committed vnto the Successour of S. Peter it is S. Bernardes it is not myne Wheras the Apologie maker were it M. Iewel or who so euer it was by the multitude of the light scoffes it appeareth that he was the Penneman of it mary the stuffe I heare say was gathered by the whole Brotherhead whereas I say he steppeth forth very peartly and saith thus Confut. fo 247. a. I haue a special fansie to common a worde or two with the Popes good Holinesse and to say these thinges vnto his owne face Tel vs I praie you good holy Father c. Which of the Fathers euer said that bothe the Swordes were committed vnto you To this question the answere I make in the Popes behalfe is this Confut. fo 247. b. L. Si quis C. d. test Of the Popes teÌ„poral Svvorde De Considerat li. 4 Math. 26. Let S. Bernard writing to a Pope answer for the Pope He is a sufficient witnesse Where your selfe doo allege him much against the Pope you can not by the lawe iustly refuse him speaking for the Pope The spiritual sworde you denie not I trowe Of the temporal sworde belonging also to the Pope thus saith S. Bernarde to Eugenius He that denieth this sworde to be thine seemeth to me not to consider sufficiently the worde of our Lorde saying thus to Peter thy predecessour put vp thy sworde in the scaberd The very same then is also thine to be drawen forth perhappes at thy becke though not with thy hande Elles if the same belonged in no wise vnto thee where as the Apostles said Lucae 22. The Churche hath both svvordes by S. Bernard beholde there be two swordes here Our Lorde would not haue answered it is yenough but it is to muche So bothe be the Churches the spiritual sworde and the material But this to be exercised for the Churche and that of the Churche That by the hande of the Priest this of the souldier but verely at the becke of the Priest and commaundement of the Emperour Thus touching the Popes bothe swordes you are fully answered by S. Bernarde I trust you wil not be so vncourteous as to put him beside nor so parcial as to allow him when he seemeth to make some shewe for you and to refuse him when he is found plaine contrarie to your false assertions Vpon this place of S. Bernarde M. Iewel in the Defence sitting forsooth M. Iewels graue sentence pronounced against S. Bernarde Defence pag. 528. Ibidem as it were vpon the Benche like a Iudge hauing power to geue sentence either of life or of death saith ful grauely and Iudgelike and pronounceth this sentence S. Bernarde saith The Pope hath bothe swordes But S. Bernardes authoritie in this case is but simple But why I praie you Sir Iudge Marke the cause and profounde reason of this Iudge He liued saith he eleuen hundred yeeres after Christes Ascension in the time of King Henry the first the King of England in the middes of the Popes route and tyrannie And shal we for this cause shake of S. Bernarde Then why maie we not as wel sitte in Iudgement vpon M. Iewel and in like sorte but with more reason pronounce this sentence M. Iewel saith the bodie of Christe is not in the Euchariste the bodie and bloude of Christe are not to be adored in the Sacrament The Churche hath no externall Sacrifice no external Priesthod Praier made for the dead is vaine and superstitious There be not seuen Sacramentes but onely two and by the same grace is not conferred or geuen but onely signified The Pope is Antichriste and al that holde the olde Faith of the Churche who are Papistes perteine to the Kingdome of Antichriste c. But M. Iewels authoritie in these cases is but simple He liued almost sixteen hundred yeeres after Christe and is yet aliue in the time of Quene Elizabeth the Quene of England in the middes of the Caluinistes route and tyrannie The same sentence with a smal change of wordes maie with like reason be pronounced vppon Luther Zuinglius Peter Martyr Bucer Caluine Beza Baudie Bale Hooper Cranmare and the rest of that wicked route It were a thing worthy to be knowen why S. Bernarde should be condemned in respecte of his age and of the route whiche this man telleth vs the Popes then bare and these Apostates should be beleeued and honoured with al mennes assent yelded to their sayinges and teachinges their age being foure hundred yeeres later the tyranny crueltie vilanie and outrage whiche in sundry places by them of that side is vsed farre surmounting any what so euer seueritie of gouernement whiche the Popes vsed in that time their learning not equal with the learning of S. Bernarde their witte muche inferiour to his of eithers vertue and good life what shal I speake To compare theirs with his it were a kinde of blasphemie so holy a Father was he so dissolute Apostates are these Item there Iewel That all kinges and Emperours receiue their vvhole povver at his hande and ought to svveare obedience and Fealtie to the Pope For these be his vvordes euen in this bâ—rke so boldly dedicated vnto your Maiestie It is a great eye soare saith M. Harding to the ministers of Antichriste to see the
many as be so farre accursed of God as to beleeue your wicked generation that ye neither entre in thither your selues nor suffer others to entre The place where the wordes be with whiche you would incense the Queenes wrath against me hath no general threats as you saie but conteine such true matter as I am not a shamed of confute it if you can verely in your Defence ye haue not done it Ye confounde saie I the offices of the spiritual Gouernours and temporal Magistrates What Kinges Confut. fol. 298. a. and Princes maie doo what they be commaunded to doo and ought of duetie to doo in Goddes name let them doo and wel maie they so doo Who is he that gainesaith If by the pretensed example of Dauid and Salomon ye animate them to intermedle with Bishoply offices then beware they saie we that Goddes Vengeance light not vpon them for such wicked presumption whiche lighted vpon king Ozias for the like offence 2. Par. 26. I marueil you denie that the Vengeance of God lighted vpon king Ozias for the like Presumption to that whereunto by your monstrous lawe and Doctrine ye animate your Princes Whiche parte denie you That Goddes Vengeance lighted vpon him Or that the Presumption is like For proufe of the Vengeance ye haue the plaine Scripture 2. Paralip 26. whiche saith that Ozias pounished for presumption as he would haue burned incense to our Lorde at the Aulter of the sweete perfume whiche belonged to the office of the Priestes only to doo a Lepre rose in his forehead whereupon the Priestes draue him out of the Temple and he himselfe also made hast that he were gonne out 2. Par. 26 saith the texte eo quòd sensisset illicò plagam Domini for that streight waie he felte the plague of our Lorde Touching the Presumption it is like For in bothe it is an vndue geuing of aduenture to doo that thing which belongeth to Bishoply Priestly auctoritie aÌ„d power geuen vnto the Quene by the Parlament and priestly office And what is that which Bishoppes and Priestes maie doo whiche ye haue not by your Acte of Parlament geuen the Quene auctoritie to do What power or auctoritie is excepted where al thinges and causes be expressed where I saie by solemne othe taken before God and his holy Angelles ye binde men to acknowledge her for the chiefe and supreme Head for by your new worde Gouernoure ye take not awaie I trowe the meaning of your former worde Head in al thinges and causes as wel spiritual as temporal Ye know ye know M. Iewel this is a very large Commission for a woman to exercise in Christes Churche Tel vs not of your newe deuised Iniunction as for a poore shifte ye are wont to doo so thinne a cloke wil not fence you againste so greate a storme of weather Although the Queene that now is haue no great delite in the exercise of al manner suche auctoritie as ye haue put her in yet what if after her time there come in her place an other Prince King or Queene of an other manner courage and fansie whom it shal like wel sometimes for his pleasure strange deuotion ambitioÌ„ or pride to doo the office which by lawe of your Parlament is committed vnto him 2 Par. 26. as it is written of king Ozias that when he became mightie and of great power his harte was lifted vp and he would needes doo that whiche belonged onely to the Priestes office If it shal like suche a Prince be he your Soueraine Lorde or Soueraine Ladie to go into your Pulpites and there after your manner to raue and raile at the Pope at the Papistes and to tel the people a peece of your lusty Geneuian Gospel whereby they maie be stirred to allewdnesse and carnal libertie If I saie the Prince that shal succeede the Queene that now is shal take vpon him so to doo what wil ye saie in this case M. Iewel and your good Brethren Wil ye come vnto him and tel him Sir if it like your Maiestie you maie not so doo Wil ye saie that it belongeth to you and to such Ministers of the word as you are and to none elles Wil ye resiste him in that attempte and driue him out of the Churche if by that time ye shal haue any Church standing at al as the Priestes of Iewrie resisted and draue out of the Temple King Ozias If your hartes shal serue you so to doo and he replie against you saying that by graunt of your owne Parlament which is a most assured warrant ye haue geuen him the supreme power auctoritie and gouernement in al thinges and causes as wel spiritual as temporal and that therefore he wil vse and practise suche power as he maie by your owne graunte what haue ye then to saie Wil ye then face him out with your pretie litle worthe Iniunctions deuised by two or three Ministers Wil that serue the turne trow ye It wil not it wil not ye maie be assured Now let vs heare with what other matter M. Iewel chargeth me Item there Iewel Thus be saith vnto your Maiestie and vvith al his skil and cunning Confut. fol 277. Confut. fol. 328. a Confut. fol. 172. b Reioind 314. Conf. 87. a CoÌ„f. 269. b Rei 42. a. Conf. 43. a CoÌ„f. 269. a 323. b. 334. a. 338. a. 348. b. A bundel of Vntruthes laboureth to persuade your Maiesties Subiectes if any one or other happely of simplicite vvil beleeue him that the godly Lavves vvhiche your Maiestie hath geuen vs to liue vnder are 1 no Lavves that your Parlamentes are 2 no Parlamentes that your Clergie is 3 no Clergie our Sacramentes no 4 Sacramentes our Faith no 5 Faith The Church of England vvhereof your Maiestie is the most principal and Chiefe he calleth a 6 malignant Churche a nevve Church erected by the dâ—â—il a Babylonical Tovver a Heard of Antichriste a Temple of Lucifer a Synagoge and a Schole of Satan ful of Robberie Sacrilege Schisme and Heresie Harding First that I say thus vnto the Quenes Maiestie it is a grosse and a palpable lye and a lye in sight For al know that reade my Confutation that in my booke I directed not my wordes vnto the Quene but vnto M. Iewel and vnto his companions that conferred with him towardes the making of the Apologie That I saie in my Confutation The Lawes made in the Quenes time be no Lawes it is an other lye That I saie The Parlamentes be no Parlamentes it is likewise an other lye That I saie The Quenes Clergie is no Clergie although I said it not and so is it the fourth lye yet here I maie saie it is a very womanly Clergie if it be a Clergie at al. That I saie Their two Sacramentes are no Sacramentes The Faith of Heretikes not Faith but perfidie it is the fifth lye Sacramentes they maie be though Schismatical Heretical corrupte and polluted Sacramentes The manner
Ye are like to whitted Sepulchres Matth. 23. Liers euil beastes slow bellies Tit. 1. God shal strike thee thou painted wal said S. Paule to Ananias Act. 23. O ye foolishe Galathians Galat. 3. False Apostles guileful workers 2. Cor. 11. The enemies of the Crosse of Christe whose bellye is their God Philip. 3. O ye stifnecked and vncircumcised in hartes and eares ye haue euer resisted the holy Ghost said S. Steuen vnto the Iewes Act. 7. As Iannes and Iambres withstode Moyses so these withstand the truth 2. Tim. 3. Hye minded proude blasphemous Ibidem Their worde creapeth forth like a canker 2. Tim. 2. Their tong is ful of deadly poison Iacob 3. These Dreamers defile the flesh despise rulers and speake euil of them that are in auctoritie Iudae As beastes whiche are without reason Woe be vnto them For they haue folowed the way of Cain and are vtterly geuen to the errour of Balaam for lucres sake and perish in the treason of Chore. Ibidem Why tempte ye me ye Ypocrites said Christe Matth. 22 Wo be vnto you Scribes and Pharisees Ypocrites Mat. 23 Wo be vnto you blinde guides Ibid. O ye fooles and blinde Ibid. Ypocrite first caste out the beame out of thine owne eye and then c. Matth. 7. It were not harde Christian Reader here to lay forth a greater heape of wordes gathered out of the Scriptures which M. Iewel reproueth in me as vncourteous and vnciuile and proceding altogether of choler But these few may suffice for shewe that if we consider wordes only and not the Circumstance of the sentence and the iuste cause why they were with such vehemencie vttered the holy Ghoste may seme also chargeable of vncourteous and vnciuile speache by whose prompting the Scriptures of God haue ben written If the matter of M. Iewels greuous accusation depende of wordes considered in them selfe onely the Scriptures haue wordes that being put a parte sownde more roughly then any yet by the written or by him noted And so farre is that pretensed fault in both Testamentes nolesse then in my bookes But if al be to be weighed by the sentences wherein suche woordes be placed and by the deserte of them in whose reproufe they be vttered as reason is it should then I appeale to al men of iudgement the dew circumstances and causes wel considered whether I haue at any time passed the bowndes of a zealous defender of the Catholique Religion whereof I make profession That the vse of sharpe speache is conuenient according to the desert of M. Iewel and of his felowes LEt the rehersal of my whole sentences with their circumstance in whiche the wordes be founde that doo so much offend be differred vntil anonne And here to turne thy tale vnto you M. Iewel and vnto your felowes lette it be lawful for me to come vnto the causes by whiche I was iustly moued so to write and to the very thinges them selfe for which ye deserue so to be written of The oddes betwixte M. Ievvel and them of his side and vs. and with such courtesie of wordes to be greeted Who be you M. Iewel and who be they of your side Who am I or rather who are we For of my selfe I am content no accompte be made but only as I apply myne endeuour to defende the Churche and the Catholique Faith by you impugned As for vs say the worst ye can of vs we are Catholiques By your owne confession your doctrine hath not benne in al Churches at al times taught and therefore ye haue tolde vs we knowe not what of your Church that it is inuisible secret vnknowen and lurketh in corners no man can tel where and therefore ye are not Catholique We remaine in that we haue receiued ye are departed from that ye receiued The doctrine for whiche ye make suche sturre is it not openly knowen to al from what men ye had it and how late ye learned it Where was this fifth Gospel so muche as whispered in any knowen corner of the worlde before that lewd Augustine Frier Martin Luther brake his vowe ranne out of his Cloister and yoked him selfe to his wanton Nonne Where was your Sacramentarie doctrine preached before Frier Huskin that new named him selfe Oecolampadius likewise brake his solemne promise to God forsooke his Religion and coupled him selfe to a young yoke fellowe Before their time who heard the sownde of your Gospel Where had ye any Dioces any Bishoppe any Church any Priest any Chappel any so much as a Parrish Clerke in the whole worlde Tel vs not as ye are woont of Wiklef Huss Ierome of Prague Berengarius Bertram and a few other which were but byles and botches in the Churche and be in no wise worthy the name of Churche Forgete not what you say in your Apologie that Luther and Zuinglius came first to the Gospel Remember ye cal that time the first appearing the spring and the first grasse as it were of your Gospel If it be so how be ye Catholique or how be ye of the Catholique Churche which is so called in respecte of the vniuersalitie of times Vincētius Lirinen places and personnes As for vs on the otherside we are hable to shew you the continuance of our faith and Doctrine by orderly successions of Bishops going vpward euen from those learned and holy Fathers whom for none other cause but only for the Catholique Faith of Christes Churche most vniustly ye kepe in Prison to S. Gregorie who sent godly Preachers to conuert the English people of our countrie vnto the Faith of Christe and from S. Gregorie further vpward vnto S. Peter and S. Paule that preached the Faith in Rome and consequently vnto Christe him selfe If we would speake vnto you in the person of the Catholique Church whereof we are a parte we might say vnto you those wordes of Tertullian spoken to Heretiques Mea est possessio olim possideo prior possideo Tertul. li. Praescript aduersus haereticos habeo origines firmas ab ipsis authoribus quorum fuit res Ego sum haeres Apostolorum The Scripture and the right sense of the Scripture is my possession I am in possession of olde I claime possession by former right The Churche continueth to the worldes ende vvithout al intermission Matt. 28 Iohan. 14 I haue the assured originals from the first authours by whom it was set forth It is I that am the Apostles heire The Churche M. Iewel as ye ought to knowe continueth from Christes Ascension vnto the ende of the worlde without intermission and without exception of any age or yeres Wil ye haue vs proue it What can we say if ye wil not beleeue Christe nor God him selfe I wil be with you saith Christe al daies vnto the ende of the worlde Againe I wil beseche my Father and he shal geue you an other conforter to remaine with you for euer the Spirite of truthe whiche the worlde can not receiue God saith to Christe in
yours as the Arians had the names of that of Ariminum and certaine other Councelles holden by the Arians Your heresies God be praised haue not yet prospered so much that ye might haue hundreds of Bishoppes to assemble and determine on your side as the Arians had Therefore againe your case is very vnlike and your example of S. Augustine and the Arian very vneuen When you haue Councelles on your fitlâ— that shal make for the proufe of your Doctrine and for condemnation of our Doctrine then maye this place of S. Augustine seeme to serue your purpose Last of al your accustomed legierdemaine in citing this place openeth your falshood For in the sentence immediatly going before the wordes by you alleged S. Augustine professeth plainely the authoritie of the Nicene Councel to haue ben sufficient for conuincing of the Arian heretike Thus he saith Hoc est illud Homusion Lib. 3. ca. 14. contra MaximinuÌ„ ArianuÌ„ quod in Concilio Niceno aduersus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis patribus veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum est This is that Doctrine concerning Homusion whiche in the Councel of Nice was confirmed against the Arian heretiques with the Authoritie of Truthe and with the Truthe of Authoritie S. Augugustine falsly alleged by M. Ievv vvordes of chiefe importaÌ„ce quite lefte out Sed nunc Streight after it foloweth Sed nunc nec ega c. But now at this present neither wil I laye against thee c. as before you alleged it These wordes Sed nunc But nowe whiche importe the doing of S. Augustine to haue ben but for that present time and occasion and doo shewe that he meant not generally to renounce the Nicene Councel those wordes I saie M. Iewel you quite leafte out alleging S. Augustines wordes in such sorte as if he had peremptorily and precisely protested that the Arian had ben no more bounde to the Authoritie of the Nicene Councel then he him selfe was bounde to the Councel of Ariminum Whereas both before he plainely protested that the Catholike Fathers of the Nicene Councel had determined against the Arian heretiques veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate By authoritie of Truth and by truthe of Authoritie and also in this later saying restrained him selfe only to the time present for cause beforâ— mencioned O how would that blessed Father be agreeued if now he were a liue and sawe his sayinges so peruersly wrested to a sense by him neuer meant nor intended and that drawen to mainetenance of heresie wherein he relented for better meanes to be had towardes the Confutation of heresie In what credite and estimation S. Augustine had General Councelles The 20. Chapt. Howbeit this blessed Father touching the credite and authoritie of lawful Councelles not only in this present place as it now appeareth but also in others of his workes hath written so circumspectly and warely that excepte heretiques were of very purpose and mere wilfulnesse sette to peruerte the truthe they coulde neuer haue piked out of his sayinges so muche as any colour of aduantage to the preiudice of Councelles Contrarywise to the aduauncement of their credite and estimation he writeth in sundry places Verely to the Donatistes being confuted and conuinced by a great Assemblie of the Aphrican Bishoppes August epist 152. Ad populuÌ„ factionis Donatiaâ—a he saith Nulla excusatio iam remansit Nimium dura nimium diabolica sunt hominum corda quae adhuc tantae manifestationi veritatis obsistunt There remaineth now no excuse The hartes of menne are too too harde and too too deuilish whiche doo yet withstande the truth so clearely opened vnto them How much better may we saie this vnto you and your companions M. Iewel whose heresies haue ben detected and learnedly confuted in the late General Councel of Trent vnto the whiche out of al Catholique Countries of Christendome Bishopes and the best learned menne were assembled Againe disputing against the errour of S. Cyprian touching the rebaptizing of such as heretiques had baptized in the ende he concludeth with the Authoritie of a General Councel and protesteth that he him selfe would not haue ben so bolde as in such sorte to confute that holy Fathers opinion excepte he had had the General Councel on his side These are his wordes August de Baptismo coÌ„tra Donatist li. 2. cap. 4. Nec nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere nisi vniuersae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate firmati cui ipse sine dubio cederet si iam illo tempore quaestionis huius veritas eliquata declarata per plenarium ConciliuÌ„ solidaretur Neither should we be so bolde as to affirme so much but that we are assuredly vpholden with the authoritie of the most vniforme consent of the vniuersal Church To the which S. Cyprian him selfe would vndoubtedly haue yeelded if at that time the truth of this question being boulted out and made cleare had benne by a ful general Councel established In like manner he vrgeth the Pelagians saying August CoÌ„tra Iulianum .li. 3. cap. 1. Vestra verò apud competens Iudicium communiuÌ„ episcoporum causa modò finita est Nec amplius vobiscuÌ„ agenduÌ„ est quantuÌ„ ad ius examinis pertinet nisi vt prolataÌ„ de hac re sententiaÌ„ cuÌ„ pace sequamini Quòd si nolueritis a turbulenta vel seditiosa inquietudine cohibeamini Your matter is now ended by sufficient iudgemeÌ„t of Bishops from al partes Neither ought we now to haue further dealing with you as touching right of examination to be made but now it behoueth that yâ— folowe peacebly the verdite whiche hath 〈◊〉 pronounced of this matter And if ye wil not yet that ye be restrained from al troblesome and seditious disorder August Epist 118. ad Ianuarium Last of al speaking of General Councelles he saith Quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima authoritas their Authoritie in the Churche is most holsome And bicause M. Iewel findeth him selfe agreeued witâ— the later Councelles and is offended with the newnesse of them and claimeth by former Councels and preteÌ„deth to folow the Apostles owne Traditions let vs see what S. Augustine of whom he would so faine borow helpe if it would be wil saie for him Whereas the Donatistes for their rebaptizing of such as the Catholiques had baptized alleged th' Apostles Tradition and neglected a late General CouÌ„cel assembled against their opinion holding vpon a more auncient Tradition euen such as came from the Apostles to them in this case S. Augustine saith thus Nec quisquam dicat August li. 4. cap. 7. de Baptis coÌ„tra Donatistas quod accepimus ab Apostolis hoc sequimur Quatò robustiuo nuÌ„c dicimus Quod ecclesiae coÌ„suetudo semper tenuit quod haec disputatio dissuadere noÌ„ potuit et quod plenariuÌ„ Concilium coÌ„firmauit hoc sequimur Neither let any man saie as the Donatistes said and as Protestantes now saie we folowe that which we haue
what saie you M. Iewel Is there no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste If there be why bring you S. Hierome to proue them both one If there be not S. Augustine shal laie to your charge that you are an Aerian Aerians which secte of Heretiques being otherwise Arians had their first name of one Aerius that was an Arian Priest The heresies of Aerius who bicause he could not be ordered Bishop beganne to teache certaine new heresies The first that there was no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Priest the nexte that no praier or Sacrifice ought to be made for the Dead the third that menne ought not to keepe the solemne and the accustomed Fastes of the Churche lest they should be vnder the lawe It shal be good for you and for your better purgation that you are not an Heretique of Aerius schoole to consider of S. Hieromes places better and seâ—ke why S. Hierome spake those wordes who in other places folowing hath leaft a plaine difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste What discretion you haue in the vnderstanding of olde Authours as by you it appeareth where so euer you cal for healpe at their handes Hieron in Esai cap. 19. euen so it is seene most euidently in this place where you allege S. Hierome to proue that there be but fiue Orders in the whole Churche two of whiche neither S. Hierome nor any other olde writer euer tooke to be Orders as we speake properly of Order Ecclesiastical as it is a Sacrament hauing his necessary ministers to do dewties in the Church in the time of publique Seruice So you deceiue your selfe alwaies bicause you are so ignorant VVhat inconuenience maie folovv if in any question it shal be lauful for one to vse the diuers significations of termes at his pleasure Presbyter Diaconus Diabolus For I would be loth to saie it were malice that you see not how a terme that hath many significations is vsed whether it be vsed in his largest nature or in some proper and singular signification restrained You maie if you liste so to abuse termes saie that al Elders are Priestes as some times you doo bicause this worde Presbyter importeth the signification both of Priestes and of Elders that euery Magistrate secular is a Bishop bicause he is an ouerseer whom Episcopus signifieth that euery seruant is a Deacon bicause Diaconus signifieth a Minister that euery il man that is a quareller is the very Deuil him selfe bicause Diabolus signifieth a quareller If you wil not see and take a daie better to consider when Authours doo vse termes in some large significations and when they vse them properly in significations restrained from the Generalitie your folie wil be suche er it be longe that euerie man shal see it In the allegation of S. Clement I thinke verely you groped and sensibly fealt your owne folie where he saith Clemens Epist 2. De Con. Distinct 3. Tribus gradibus that the Sacramentes of the Diuine secretes are committed vnto three Orders vnto the Priest vnto the Deacon and vnto the Minister You sawe plainely that S. Clement named expressely three Orders distincte and yet you saie that Deacons and Ministers as touching the name are al one This place of S. Clement ioyned with your owne Confession that Deacons and Ministers Minister touching the name are al one wil inforce you to confesse that termes are diuersly restrained from their generalitie without apposition or addition at al as the terme Minister whiche is general must needes signifie some distincte Order diuers from the Deacon Emong al the Authorities that you haue brought if you had alleged any that by naming of any number of Orders had therewith excluded al other that had not ben conteined within the same you had brought somewhat to helpe your cause Pag. 97. S. Hierome S. Clement S. Dionyse as their matter and occasion serued spake of certaine holy Orders that haue preeminence in the Churche as the Bishop the Prieste the Deacon the Minister or Subdeacon but they neuer so spake of these principal holy Orders that either they expressely excluded or meant any exclusion of the lower Orders Wherefore al your talke and stoare of Testimonies are to no purpose as beinge vtterly wyde of the matter you shoulde proue Pag. 97. It pleaseth here your ministerly grauitie and great wisedom first to scoffe out al the lower or inferiour Orders whose offices our Sauiour Christe him selfe executed in his owne person and therfore to kepe Order within the Churche whiles the sacrifice of the Masse was celebrated or any other Sacrament ministred the three lower Orders were decently placed the doore keepers Inferiour Orders the Exorcistes not Coniurers M. Iewel by your licence whiche terme now in English conteineth an infaime as the lawes made against them do witnesse the Acolutes the Readers As touching the pleasure you take in scoffing Pag. 97. 98. solacing your selfe therewith in this place we can not muche woonder that you mocke and ieast at Petrus Lombardus a man farre passing you in vertue and learning seing your scorneful head could not refraine from scoffing at S. Clement the holy Martyr of Christe that liued in the Apostles time and was appointed by S. Peter to be his successour in the See Apostolique and spare not to scoffe out the Order of Deacons who tooke place in the very Apostles time You would gladly to delite your folowers for a time make them beleeue that the Deacons office was for no other purpose but to holde a fanne in their handes to keepe of flies from the Communion Cup and yet that scoffing head of yours doth knowe that the Deacons had an office more proper vnto their Order then that and yet that office as base as your mery head would it should appeare considering to whom that seruice was donne to wit that nothing should chaunce vndecently about the precious bloud of Christe vpon the Aulter coÌ„secrated was in dignitie farre passing the highest office that is donne in the presence of the honourablest wordely Prince that is And wil ye see the great witte of the man After that he hath made mery with his good felowes his Disciples and scoffed at the office of the Deacons at Patrus Lombardus that holy and learned Bishop at S. Clement that blessed Martyr at the origine and foundatio of al the lower Orders as one that had quite forgotten what fonde partes he had plaied at length he commeth in confessing plainely that sundry of the Offices of the lower and inferiour Orders in the Primitiue Churche were appointed to very good and sober purposes And yet the man would haue them al suppressed in the ende bicause Ostiarius now keepeth not the excommunicates out the Acolute waiteth not on the Bisshop the Exorcistes caste not out Deuilles the Reader openly pronounceth not the Scriptures the Deacons prouide not for the poore yea bicause the Bishop preacheth not the Gospel And
of the matter laie in any one of them But for that natural reason should partely declare to the ignorant who are not hable to conceiue deeper Argumentes that the Order whiche our Sauiour leafte in his Churche the same to be ruled by one general Head doth so sensibly sticke in euery mannes conceite that vnderstandeth the force of any good natural reason that you or any of your felowes with any heapes of impertinent sentences of al sortes of Writers with whiche you fournish vs out bookes of great bulke shal neuer be hable to prooue the contrarie Disorder not 〈◊〉 reasons M. Iewel take them as my selfe haue sette 〈…〉 marke what force they are of when they be linked in one Then ouerthrowe them if you can I am assured you can not The other three reasons to the which you say ye answered in your Replie are so by M. Stapleton returned vpon you againe and your whole answere reprooued that the worlde now seeth what smal worship ye haue wonne thereby I would aduise you to beginne againe and labour for a more sufficient answere elles you may be sure that menne wel geue you ouer for one that promiseth much and perfourmeth nothing Iewel Pag. 100. I graunt Dissension and quarelles be the sooner ended vvhen al thinges be put ouer to one man so that the same man maie liue for euer and stil continue in one minde and neuer alter Harding M. Iewel alloweth no one man to be ruler except he may liue for euer and continue in one minde which is fonde Liue for euer what a blinde answere is this The .11 Chapt. I praie you Sir did Moyses when he had the gouernement of the people of Israel make an ende of no Dissensions and quarelles emong them I weene you wil say yeas And yet he liued not emonge them for euer pardy Did not Iosue so Did not Samuel Did not Dauid Did not Salomon and others Yet I trowe you wil not say they liued for euer Doth not euery Prince dailie within his owne Realme so Euery Bisshop within his owne Diocese the Archebishop within his owne Prouince And yet ye knowe they liue not for euer Heard euer any man a fonder answere made then this The first foure General Councelles ended diuers matters of contention and yet they that were there liued not for euer For very shame cal backe this vnsauery answere againe or at least put it out of your booke at your nexte Impression if the first finde good vtterance and lye not vpon you handes Iewel Ibidem And stil continevv in one minde and neuer alter Harding That is the very cause perhappes why Archeheretiques can make an ende of no Dissension bicause their mindes doo daily 2. Tim. 3. and hourely alter as S. Paule saieth of certaine curious wemenne that were alwaies learning alwaies talking and babling of Scripture and neuer drawing to any good ende neuer atteining to the knowledge of truthe Princes bounde by M. Ievvel to continue stil in one minde You haue bounde Kinges and Princes very hard to continew stil in one minde and neuer to alter so that if one haue cause to warre against the other after warre once entred they may neuer intreate of peace They muste continew stil in one minde and neuer alter They muste keepe so precise and so holesome a diet that they maie liue for euer If they make any statute that is good and necessarie to be kepte for some one time perhappes for the space of v. or vj. yeres afterwarde when the Continuance of suche statutes shal be founde to breede greate disorder and inconuenience to the Realme it shal not be lawful for them to repeale them bicause M. Iewel hath bounde them to continew in the minde they were and neuer to alter For if they once alter how so euer and wherein so euer it be dissensions and quarelles saith he can not by them be appeased and ended and therefore good gouernment shal faile Iewel Pag. 100. But oftentimes one Pope is founde contrarie to an other Harding Answere to the contrarities in certaine Popes reprehended by M. Iewel and to the violating of Pope Formosus dead Carkasse c. Not so ofte as one king is founde contrarie to an other The .12 Chapt. Read the Stories you shal find it true But Lorde what a doo ye make here about the Contrarieties of certaine Popes and yet you shal neuer finde one Pope contrarie to an other in any article of our Faith as heauy a Maister as you are vnto them But why doo you not cal to minde what varietie of opinions ye haue had emong your selues fith ye brought your Gospel first into the Realme Remember within so shorte a time how many sortes of Communions haue benne seene how many sectes haue risen emong your selues How farre the Puritanes who haue wel nigh tried out the Quintessence of your Gospel Puritanes and perhappes at their nexte proceding wil vtterly denie God how farre I saie they are alienated and diuided from you and that not only for Square cappes and side gownes but also for other matters that in their time shal be reueled I wil saie nothing here of the Arians Anabaptistes Libertines and Atheistes who since the first planting of your Gospel haue crepte into the realme and now swarme in diuers places there vncontrolled who if they had the ful libertie ye preached when ye first laboured to supplante the Catholiques were wel like shortely to set you also beside the stoole But they for that their time is not yet come must doo as they maie and be passed ouer as not seene that al the charitable blowes of your fyrie Gospel might light vpon the Catholiques headdes Your manner alwaies is in the allegation of histories as also of other thinges to adde somwhat of your owne as you doo in telling vs how Pope Steuen vnburied his predecessour Pope Formosus â—abellicus falsified by M. Ievvel Sabellicus Ennead 9. lib. 1. where you reporte that he defaced and mangled his naked carkasse The historie maketh mention of no suche mangling and defacing of his Carkasse onely it sheweth that the forefingers of his right hande whiche had benne annointed and consecrated were cut of and that the Pontifical garmentes wherein Popes were wonte of an olde custome to be buried were taken of from his corps A man that had heard of defacing and mangling a naked carkasse would haue thought that the carkasse had benne hewed in peeces or otherwise spitefully mangled Leaue leaue that il propertie for shame M. Iewel Adde not diminishe not tel stories as you finde them and so shal you geue your Aduersarie lesse aduantage against you It is maruaile it came not into your head by diligent searche to finde out a dissension emong the Popes bicause some of them loued rather to eate fishe then fleshe some vsed to rise sooner in the morning some later some were of stature higher some lower And least your storie should be vnrequitted it were
morbum in ipso capite componit Ecclesiae in ipso vertice componit membrorum omnium sanitatem in Petroscilicet illo qui dixerat etiam si oportuerit me mori tecum non te negabo He cureth the sickenes of the whole body in Peter the very head it selfe of the Churche and in the very crowne of the head it selfe he setteth in order the health of al the members I meane in the selfe same Peter that had said Although I were driuen to die with thee Mat. 26. I wil neuer denie thee Iewel And the very Ordinarie Glose geueth these vvordes to S. Paule Non didici ab aliis tanquam à maioribus sed contuli cum illis Gloss Galat 2. tanquam cum amicis paribus I learned not of Peter and others as of my betters but I had conference with them as with my Equalles and frendes Harding Difference betwen learning and conferring together Had M. Iewel learnedly considered the difference The 24. Chapt. that is bewixt learning and conferring he would neuer for very shame haue alleged thâ—s place of the Ordinarie Glose In learning the teacher is of greater dignitie In conferring what soeuer the personnes otherwise are either of one dignitie or of diuers as touching the act of conference they make them selues equal as doth the King with his Counsel when they laie their heades together to boult out one mater Yet no man maie thereof reason that there is no difference of state betwixte the King and them of his Counsel or that euery of the Counsel is of equal state one with an other What neede S. Paule had of S. Peter to haue matters decided by his authoritie Actâ— 15. it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles when he with Barnabas and others were sent from Antioche to Hierusalem to know whether the Gentiles were bounde to be circumcised But M. Iewels happe is alwaies to fal vpon places that bringe him smal worship or aduantage of his cause The Apologie Part. 2. Cap 3. Diui. 4. pag. 107. It vvas said indifferently to them al feede ye c. Confutation Wee denie that it was said indifferently to them al Feede ye Iohan. 21. yea or that it was said at al Feede ye To Peter and none elles was it said Feede my lambes Feede my sheepe .. Which worde of Feeding so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles proueth that it was not indifferently said to al Feede ye Iewel Pag. 107. It forceth not greatly vvhat M. Hardinge denie or graunte hauing neither reason nor autoritie but onely his ovvne But if povver vvere not geuen indifferently to al the Apostles tel vs then vvherein is the â—ddes VVhat had Peter more VVhat had the others lesse Or vvhat olde Doctour or learned Father euer savv this difference Harding M. Iewel is tolde where he maie finde his demaundes answered and are also here answered in parte Though we tel you this The 25. Chapt. and proue it neuer so plainely yet stil wil you wrangle The Fathers haue infinite places for Peters preeminence aboue the rest as I haue partely here but more largely in my Answer Ansvver to your Chalenge shewed Article 4. Yea the selfe same places of the Fathers that you allege to proue the contrarie apparently within few lines after doo vtterly and in plaine wordes so refute you as your selfe knowe that for very shame you durst not to allege any whole place of certaine the olde Fathers but Iewishly lefte them circumcised as I haue shewed before in sundry allegations of S. Hierome of S. Chrysostome of S. Augustine and of others wherby the Reader hath a viewe and maie conceiue what you haue done in the reste And yet suche is your impudencie as though you walked inuisible and none were hable to detecte your false dealing you cal importunately vpon vs to shewe the oddes and to tel you what authoritie Peter had more then the reste And to declare what olde Father euer sawe any suche difference If it maie please you to reade the fourth Article of my Answere to your Chalenge M.D. Saunders booke entitled the Rocke of the Churche and M. Stapletons Returne of your Vntruthes vpon you in iustificatioÌ„ of Vntruthes which you impute vnto mee there maie you haue moe olde Fathers then ye haue yet or euer shal be hable to make reasonable answer vnto A most plain and euident testimonie of the Popes Primacie ouer al the vvorlde Chrysost homil 1. de poeniteÌ„tia In the meane time tel vs what S. Chrysostome meant when he said thus in his first homilie de poenitentia Ecclesiae primatum gubernationemque Petro per vniuersum mundum Christus tradidit Christ hath deliuered vnto Peter the primacie and gouernment of the Churche through the whole worlde When ye can shewe vs suche a plaine testimonie out of any Father that S. Peter had not the primacie and supreme gouernment deliuered vnto him by Christ you shal seeme to saie somewhat Iewel Pag. 107. 108. Christe saide equally vnto them al. Receiue the holy Ghoste whose sinnes ye forgeue they are forgeuen Goe into the whole worlde Preache the Gospel to euery creature These vvordes perceiue equally vnto al. Peter had no more the holy Ghoste no more povver to forgeeue sinnes no more commission to go into the vvhole vvorlde no more authoritie to preache the Gospel then others had Harding Why are you so copious in bye maters wherein I neuer striued with you and so barrein in the principal mater that lieth in controuersie betwixte vs Equal power was graunted to the Apostles to gather the Church this was neuer denied you But their power was not equal to rule the Church after that it was gathered from euery coaste of the worlde The which point you disproue not Iewel Pag. 108. M. Harding saithe To the Reste of the Apostles it vvas not said at al Iohan. 21. Feede ye To Peter and to none els vvas it said Feede my Lambes Feede my sheepe Yet Christe him selfe saithe Quod vni dico omnibus dico Marc. 13. That I saie to one I saie to al. Harding M. Iewel fouly falsifieth the worde of Christ him selfe What M. Iewel wil ye neuer leaue your falsifying The 26. Chapt. And are ye not a fraide to corrupte the holy Worde of the Sonne of God him selfe Is our cause so good and substantial that ye can make no shewe of truthe a-against it but by foule corruption of the Scripture Where is this written Be ye not a fraide for your aduantage to deceiue the worlde with Scripture of your owne making And were it true that S. Marke had so written how can you wreste it to your purpose Thus it is good Reader Our Sauiour gaue a general warning not onely to the Apostles but to al menne beleeuing in him to be watcheful against our Lordes comming which shal be suddeinely at suche time as they know not and therefore said Vigilate
muche as Priestes there sate in the Church where Deacons vsed to stande and the Deacons neuer durste to sitte emonge the Priestes Hiero. in eadeÌ„ epistol ad eÌ„uagriuÌ„ whiles the Bisshop was present Although he confesseth that once in the Bishoppes absence he sawe a Deacon when disorder tooke place sitting emong the Priestes and at priuate Feastes in priuate houses geuing the benediction to Priestes Whereby it is manifest that the preferring of Deacons aboue Priestes rose not of any ordinarie custome of the Churche of Rome where al states best keept due order in the Bisshoppes presence but of the priuate pride of some Deacons and of the simplicitie of the people of that Citie Therefore S. Hierome saith not Quid mihi profers Romanae Ecclesiae consuetudinem why bringest me forth the custome of the Romaine Churche but Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis consuetudinem Why bringest me the custome of one Citie The ignorant people made more of the Deacons Euseb lib. 6. Eccles histor ca. 33. bicause they were but fewe in number to wit but only seuen at one time as Eusebius maketh mention whereas at that time there were six and fortie Priestes in that Churche whom the people as S. Hierome saith for the number had in contempte Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue CoÌ„stantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tanis eiusdem meriti eiusdem est sacerdotij Beholde Reader how M. Iewel hath translated this sentence Where so euer there be a Bisshop be it at Eugubium be it at Rome be it at Constantinople be it at Rhegium be it at Alexandria be it at Tanis they are al of one worthinesse they are al of one Bisshoprike Where the nominatiue case Episcopus Bishop being of the singulare number so placed by S. Hierome with the verbe Est also of the singular number bicause it serued not M. Iewels turne guilfully in translation a change is made into the plural and thereby the meaning of the sentence cleane altered to thintent the sentence might so the rather sounde to his purpose whiche is to make al Bishoppes equal in authoritie of rule and gouernment Now S. Hieromes wordes doo signifie that a Bishop is of the same Merite and of the same Priesthood whether he be Bishop of a great Citie or of a litle And here is to be noted that M. Iewel can not yet brooke this worde Merite and whereas before he vsed the worde Preeminence being by me admonished of it now he translateth eiusdem est meriti they are al of one worthinesse Likewise he termeth eiusdem sacerdotij of one Bishoprike for of one Priesthood How so euer you bring in S. Hierome for the equalitie of Priestes with Bishoppes it forceth not It is wel knowen S. Hierome neuer dreamed of suche an equalitie as you would haue when he wrote this sentence Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet Hieron aduersus Luciferainos cui si non exors quaedam ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Eccesia efficientur schismata quot sacerdotes The sauegarde of the Churche dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest Bishop vnto whom if a peerelesse and supreme power be not yelded there shal arise so many Schismes in the Churche as there be Priestes If God haue a special regarde to the safetie of the Churche and if the Churche can not be safe without there be a peerelesse and a supreme power yeelded vnto the highest Priest whiche is a Bishop as S. Hierome saith what so euer M. Iewel saie to the contrarie God must needes allowe the hauing of suche Bishoppes as shal haue power peerelesse to rule their flockes not onely their lambes but also their sheepe to witte the Clergie the Priestes and the Deacons vnder them Hieron Lib. 1. aduersus IouinianuÌ„ He saith also Propterea inter duodecim vnus eligitur vt capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio Therefore is there one chosen emong the twelue saith S. Hierome who should be made Head that the occasion of Schisme might be taken away And that we should be put out of doubte who chose that one to be Head aboue al the reste and why Peter was rather chosen then Iohn that was so deerely beloued S. Hierome saith delatum est aetati partly in consideration of his age and partly bicause he would deliuer Iohn from the enuie that he should haue incurred if he had benne placed in that roome being so yong a man M. Iewel had neede to looke better vpon his booke and to learne by these places better to tempre the other sayinges of S. Hierome S. Hierome saith vnitie can not be kepte the Churche can not be in sauegarde Schismes can not be suppressed by equalitie of Priestes with Bishoppes Ergo there must be Bishoppes that shal haue power to rule the Priestes and the reste Thus M. Iewels equalitie wil not stande with the doctrine of S. Hierome Although saith S. Augustine after the names of honours now vsed in the Church the state of a Bishop be greater August Epist 19. then the state of a Prieste yet in many thinges Augustine is lesse then Hierome Notwithstanding we ought not to refuse and disdaine to be corrected of any man though he be our inferiour Vpon these wordes of S. Augustine M. Iewel reasoneth that the difference of power and authoritie betwixte Bishoppes and Priestes had no allowance from Scripture but by the custome of the Churche As though one thing could not be allowed both in Scripture and also by the common custome of the Churche The common custome of the Churche teacheth vs to feare God daily doth not the Scripture allowe the same To honour our Father and mother And doth not the Scripture commaunde the same But M. Iewel would faine make debate betwixt the custome of the Churche and the holy Scripture and therefore ful prouidently he hath interlaced a Parenthesis of his owne politike deuise in this manner The office of a Bisshop is aboue the office of a Prieste not by authoritie of the Scriptures but after the names of honour whiche the custome of the Churche hath now obteined I haue here before declared that there was a secte of Heretiques calles Aerians as S. Augustine reporteth who denied that there was any difference at al betwen the state of a Bisshop and the state of a Prieste August de Haresib ad Quoduult deuÌ„ Haeres 53. whiche opinion being accompted for heresie by S. Augustine ought to stop any reasonable mans mouth and to persuade him that S. Augustines opinion is quite contrarie to that which M. Iewel holdeth Iewel Pag. 1â—1 As for Pope Leo his ovvne authoritie in his ovvne cause can not be great The Emperour saithe Nemo debet sibi ius dicere ff Li. 2. de Iurisdict omniuÌ„ Iudicum 16. q. 6. Consuetudo in margine No man maie minister lavve vnto him selfe And it is noted thus in the Decrees Papa non
the Aphrican Bishoppes had deposed and remoued from his Bishprike for crimes not sufficiently proued sent his Clerkes that were his Agentes in Aphrica vnto certaine noble menne of the Countrie bearing offices vnder the Emperour to require their assistence if neede should so require whiche is as muche to saie as now we vse to speake as implorare brachium seculare to cal vpon the temporal power for helpe that iustice maie be executed With this the Aphrican Bishoppes did muche mislike and therefore besought Pope Coelestine that it should no more be donne but that maters might be ended by them being Bishoppes of that prouince without al intermedling of the laie power The wordes of the epistle are these Concil Aphâ—ican cap. 105. Executores etiam clericos vestros quibusque potentibus nolite mittere nolite concedereâ—ne fumosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi quae lucem simplicitatis humilitatis diem Deum videre cupientibus praefert videamur inducere Furthermore we beseche you that you sende no more your Clerkes that be your Agentes vnto any of the great menne and that you graunt to no suche thing hereafter leste we should seeme to bringe the smoky or vaine stoutenesse of the worlde into the Churche of Christe whiche to them that couete to see God sheweth forth the light of simplicitie and humilitie This is the Vntruthe you make vpon the Aphrican Councel in reprouing Pope Innocentius of pride and worldely Lordelinesse fully answered Now as vow haue brought an vntruth against the Pope out of the Aphrican Councel as you pretend so maie it please you to consider of the contrarie reported in the behofe of the Popes supreme authoritie in gouernment out of a Councel of Aphrica where we finde the same autoritie with these wordes auouched and acknowleged Maximè tustè debent Episcoporum iudicia negotia ecclesiastica ab ipso praesulum examinari vertice Apostolico Epist Stephani trium CoÌ„ciliorum Aphrica ad Damasum PapaÌ„ Con. 10. 1. cuius vetusta solicitudo est tam mala damnare quà m releuare laudanda Antiquis enim regulis censitum est vt quicquid horum quamuis in remotis vel in longinquo positis ageretur prouincijs non prius tractandum vel accipiendum sit nisi ad notitiam almae sedis vestrae fuisset deductum vt eius authoritate iuxta quod fuisset pronunciatum firmaretur The iudgementes of Bishops and ecclesiastical maters ought most iustely to be examined of him that is the Apostolike toppe or the crowne of the head of the Prelates whose care it is of olde as wel to condemne il thinges as to releeue good thinges For it hath ben decreed by the olde Canons that what so euer matter of the Bishoppes were in sute though it were in prouinces that be farre of from Rome it should not be ended before it were brought to the notice of that your See that it might be assured by the authoritie of the same right so as the sentence in iudgement should be pronounced By these wordes and by the whole Epistle of the Fathers of that Aphrican Councel assembled together vnder the Archebishop Stephanus it appeareth euidently how reuerently they submitted them selues and the determination of their causes and controuersies vnto the Pope and how farre of they were from the outragious sprite as to charge Innocentius or any other Pope with pride and wordely lordelinesse as M. Iewel hath fained Iewel Pope Bonifacius 2. condemned S. Augustine and al the said Councel of Aphrica and called them al heretiques and Schismatiques Inter decreta Bonifacij 2. Instigante diabolo for the same and said they vvere al * leade by the Deuil Pope Zosimus to maintaine this claime corrupted the holy Councel of Nice Harding Bonifacius 2. Fowly be lyed The .31 Chapt. It is pitie this man hath not a good mater For where he maketh so muche of nothing what would he doo had he somewhat But it is easie to saie muche in a naughty cause for one that is not a shamed to lie It can not be founde among the Decrees of Pope Boniface the .2 vnto whiche M. Iewel referreth vs nor any where els that he euer condemned that blessed and learned Father S. Augustine by name nor the Councel of Aphrica by any solemne sentence pronounced against them Verely that he called them al Heretiques and Schismatiques for the same that is to saie for the Popes vniuersal authoritie or for any thing and that they were lead by the Deuil it is an impudent lie The most greuous wordes he vttereth against them are these in an Epistle that he writeth to Eulalius the Patriarch of Alexandria exhorting him to reioise and to geue warning to other Bishoppes neare vnto him to reioise also and to geue God thankes for that the Churche of Aphrica was reconciled and returned to the obedience of the Churche of Rome from whence they had seuered them selues for the space of a hundred yeres vpon some stomake as it appeareth for that they would not admitte any Appellations of the Bishoppes of Aphrica to be made vnto the Pope whiche authoritie the Pope claimed by a Canon of the Nicene Councel CoÌ„cil Sardicen ca. 7 Bonifac. 2. Epist ad EulabiuÌ„ CoÌ„cil to 1. pag. 1057. and likewise by a Canon of the Councel of Sardica Aurelius Carthaginensis Ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostroruÌ„ Bonifacij atque Coelestini contra Romanam Ecclesiam coepit Aurelius some time Bishop of the Churche of Carthage beganne with his felowe Bishops the Deuil intising them to be proude against the Churche of Rome in the daies of Boniface and Coelestine my predecessours c. Of Heretiques and Schismatiques here is not a worde And though he said the Deuil intised them yet wil it not folowe that al they were leadde by the Deuil The Deuil intiseth many yea whom doth he not intise to euil Yet al be not leadde by the Deuil To be intised of the Deuil is one thing to be leadde is an other Touching Pope Zosimus saie what ye can folowing your Maister Caluine and when ye haue said al that ye can saie it is wel knowen ye shal neuer clearely proue Caluine Institut Cap. 1. that he corrupted the Councel of Nice For this I referre the Reader to M. Stapleton in his Returne of Vntruthes vpon M. Iewel Articulo 4. fol. 30. sequentib Peruse the place Reader and thou shalt finde thy selfe wel satisfied touching this pointe That whiche there is said in defence of Zosimus against their sclaunderous reportes M. Iewel should first haue disproued if he had minded in that mater to trie out the truthe and then haue laied it againe in our waie But he ful craftily dissembleth al and maketh as though he had not seene any such thing therby bothe to encomber vs with ofte repeating of one thing and the reader with hearing that whiche hath ben
whiche beare the name of Christians And to the Apostles Christe said Matt. 28. I am with you al daies vntil the worldes ende If he be with them til the ende they likewise are in the worlde til the worldes ende But they liued not so long in this worlde therefore it is meant that from age to age and from man to man Christe will haue alwayes some to sitte in the Chaieres and Seates of his Apostles by ordinarie Succession vntil the worldes ende Of this Succession Dauid in the person of Christ spake in spirite saying to the Church For thy Fathers Psal 44. Sonnes are borne vnto thee Thou shalt ordeine them the Chiefe Gouernours ouer al the earth The Church answereth I shal be mindeful o Lorde of thy name in euery Generation and Generation therefore the peoples shal geue praise and thankes to thee for euer and from age to age .. So that the cause why the Churche continueth are the Gouernours by God appointed vnto it and as the Churche continueth from age to age so do they gouerne from age to age For the Visible Flocke of shepe can not long lacke their Visible shepeheard at any time but that the Wolues wil enter in and disperse them a sunder Iewel VVhen Christ beganne to refourme their abuses and errours they said to him Luc. 20. Mark 11. Beda in Lucam li. 5. cap. 80. by vvhat povver doest thou these thinges and vvho gaue the this authoritie vvhere is thy Succession Vpon vvhiche vvordes Beda saith They vvould haue the people vnderstand for that he had no solenne Succession that al that he did vvas of the Deuil Harding See vvhat cōueiāce M. Ievv vseth to helpe his cause Scarse one line hath passed your handes into the whiche you haue nor conueied of your owne head the worde Succession Whereas neither S. Luke nor S Mathew nor S. Marke nor S. Paule nor S. Hierome nor the Pharisees nor Bede whom you allege vsed that worde at al. But to make your tale sound against Succession M. Ievv falsifieth al his testimonies you driue al to that point and thereby you falsifie euery place that you bring as euery man shal finde who doth conferre the matter with the Originals and so al your Defence standeth vpon fialsified Authorities But our cause God be praised for it is so strong Christes true Succession that we neede not to care though al that were true whiche you allege For albeit the Pharisees would not harken to Christes Succession yet in deede he Succeded lineally to al the Kinges and Patriarkes and thereby to the Priestes also of the best Order to wit of the Lawe of nature and not of the Law of Moyses whiche was an inferiour Lawe in respecte of that of Nature Christ therefore had not onely a most perfite Succession which is described in the Gospel from Adam til Ioseph the husbande of the Virgin Marie but also with that his Succession he stopped al the mouthes of his Enemies For thus he said to them VVhat thinke you of Christe that is of your Messias whom you looke for Matt. 22. VVhose Sonne is he They say to him the Sonne of Dauid Christ saith to them Psal 109. How then doth Dauid cal him Lorde in spirite saying The Lord hath said to my Lord sit at my right hand vntil I put thy enemies as a foote stoole vnder thy feete If then Dauid cal him Lorde how is he his Sonne And no man was hable to answer him a worde Neither durst any manne after that daye aske him any moe questions Here it is first to be noted that the Scribes and Pharisees knew Christ to haue a Succession from Dauid For his Sonne they said he must be Therefore M. Iewel in making the Pharisees to acknowledge no Succession of his hath corrupted the texte of the Gospel and vttered a great Vntruthe The Pharisees knew that Christe should succede in the very beste line but they would not attende nor consider how that Succession was now brought to passe in the Sonne of Marie who being of the howse of Dauid had miraculously brought forth Christe the perfite ende of the Lawe So likewise M. Iewel knoweth that the Churche of Christe must needes haue a perpetual Succession but he wil not consider how it is preserued chiefely in the Chaier of Peter Ioan. 21. to whom aboue al others the sheepe of Christ were committed Wel Christe then geuing the Iewes to vnderstand that he succeeded in the line of Dauid Christ not only the Sonne of Dauid but also the Sône of God would haue had them farther to consider that he also was the sonne of God and so shewed that he who was Dauids Sonne was also called the Lord of Dauid his Sonne by flesh his Lord by Godhed which thing did put them al to silence Euen so that weake mortal and some time miserable and sinful man whome sitting at Rome M. Iewel despiseth when he heareth him to be according to the gifte of God the Vicare of Christes loue as S. Ambrose calleth him in feeding his shepe Ambr. in cōmment in Luc. c. 24. and the Successour of the chiefe Apostle he is surely astoined at it and would be put to silence if he were not worse then a Pharisee For admitting that the Pope were not S. Peters Successour but onely one of the lowest Bishoppes of Christes Churche yet who would not woonder to see him keepe his Succession so notably fiften hundred yeres together wheras al the Patriarkes and thousandes of Bishops besides are so mangled and so brought to nought But now if wee adde hereunto that the same is euen by our enemies confession and euer was the first See how muche more ought they to woonder at the special prouidence of God in that behalfe Therefore euen as it was miraculous that the line of Dauid was so notably preserued in so many changes and captiuities of the Iewes right so may we say of the Bishoppes of Rome in suche sorte as smaller thinges doo imitate the greater and may in their manner be compared to the greater Iewel Cyrillus frameth the Pharisees vvordes in this sorte Cyrillus in Cathen in Luc. 20. Thou Being of the tribe of Iuda and therefore hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthood takest vpon thee the office that is committed vnto vs. Harding Here againe you adde these wordes hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthode of your owne head M. Ievv falsifieth Cyrillus by adding vvordes of his ovvne Howbeit euen there Cyrillus sheweth that Christe had right by Succession which you should not haue conceeled had you dealt truly For there it foloweth Sed si nouisses ô Pharisee scripturas recoleres quòd hic est Sacerdos qui secundùm ordinem Melchisedech offert Deo in se credentes per cultum qui legem transcendit O thou Pharisee Christe had right also by successiō if thou haddest knowen the Scriptures thou wouldest remember that this
of Christes flesh the onely meane of Resurrection to life And therefore your long talke is to no purpose which you vtter in this place They shal liue by the spirite of Christe who gaue them Faith and Charitie But doth not therefore S. Iohn speake also of real eating as though one effecte may not be wrought by diuers meanes concurring thereunto Ego saith Cyrillus id est Cyrill in Iohā li. 4. cap. 15. corpus meū quod comedetur resuscitabo eū I wil raise him that is to say my body which shal be eaten shal raise him Thus you see plainely that touching this point no lesse Clerke then Cyrillus teacheth the same that I said which you haue vniustly and rashly controlled as you haue done the reste of the Catholike Doctrine That matters of faithe and ecclesiastical causes are not to be iudged by the Ciuile Magistrate The. 14. Chapter Iewel Pag. 637. That a Prince or magistrate maie not lavvfully calae Prieste before him to his ovvne seate of Iudgement or that many Catholique and godly Princes haue not so done and done it lavvfully it is most vntrue Harding I haue tolde you M. Iewel Confut. Fol. 299. ae that the duetie of Ciuil Princes consisteth in Ciuil maters and euer said that Bishoppes ought to be obedient to Princes in suche cases whither so euer they cal them And if they make any temporal Decree the Bishoppe who hath temporal goodes vnder the Prince must obey without grudge Confut. Fol. 302. ae or gaine saying so farre as the Decree standeth with the honour of God But that in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faith mere temporal Princes haue any authoritie of them selues to cal Bishoppes and Priestes to their Seates of Iudgement or euer did it lawfully we vtterly denie Ambrosius lib. 5. Epist 32. Priestes only ought to be iudges ouer Priestes by Theosius S. Ambrose said to the Emperour Valentinian Nec quisquà m contumacem iudicare me debet quum hoc asseram quod augustae memoriae patertuus non solùm sermone respondit sed etiam legibus suis sanxit in causa fidei vel ecclesiastici alicuius ordinis eum iudicare debere qui nec munere impar sit nec iure dissimilis Haec enim verba Rescripti sunt Hoc est Sacerdotes de Sacerdotibus voluit iudicare Quinetiam si aliâs quoque arguerelar Episcopus morum esset examinanda causa etiam hanc voluit ad Episcopule iudicium pertinere Neither any man ought to iudge me as stubborne seing I affirme that whiche your father of most renoumed memorie not onely answered in worde but also established by his lawes that in a case of faith or any ecclesiastical order he ought to be iudge that is neither vnequal in office nor vnlike in right or authoritie For these are the wordes of the Rescripte That is he would Priestes to be iudges of Priestes And also if otherwise a Bishop were reproued and a cause concerning behauiour and manners were to be examined he would this cause of manners also to apperteine to the Bishoppes iudgement Vpon these wordes of Theodosius alleged and allowed by S. Ambrose An argument prouing that a Ciuile Magistrat maie not be iudge oner Priestes in causes ecclesiastical and matters of Faith thus I reason with you M. Iewel He can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faithe that is vnequal in office or vnlike in right and authoritie But the Prince is vnequal to the Bishop in office and vnlike vnto him in right and authoritie For he hath no right nor authoritie to sacrifice to preache to binde to loose to excommunicate and minister Sacramentes Therefore the Prince can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in any ecclesiastical cause or mater of Faith Againe no man hath authoritie ouer his superiour But the Bishop in maters of Faithe and Ecclesiastical causes is superiour to euery Prince Therefore in those causes the Prince hath no authoritie ouer the Bishop And if he haue no authoritie ouer him he can not cal him to his seate of iudgement Furthermore were it true that the Prince were equal with the Bishop in Ecclesiastical causes and matters of faith yet could he not cal him to his seate of iudgement ff ad S. Trebel L. ille § Tēpestiuum quia par in parem non habet potestatem bicause the equal hath no authoritie or power ouer his equal But to see M. Iewels arte in facing out this mater let vs consider the authorities that he bringeth to proue his purpose And bicause he blaseth this saying in the toppe of his margent with great letters VVhat it is to be conuēted before a Magistrate Spiegelius in verbo conuenire A Bishop conuented before the Magistrate let vs first define what it is to be conuented before a Magistrate The lawiers saie Conuenire est aliquem in ius vocare To conuent a man is to cal him into the lawe and so Conueniri coram magistratu est in ius vocari à magistratu to be conuented before a magistrate is to be called into the lawe by the magistrate To cal a man into the lawe is a iudicial acte proceding of superiour authoritie in him that is iudge both of the partie so called and also of the cause wherefore he is called As if the Maior of London would conuent any of the Citizens he must both haue iurisdiction ouer that Citizen and also authoritie to iudge in that cause for whiche the Citizen shal be conuented But no ciuil magistrate hath authoritie by vertue of his temporal office to be iudge our Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes as it is before proued and shal hereafter appeare Therefore no temporal magistrate can conuent any Bishoppe or Priest before him in any Ecclesiastical cause But let vs heare M. Iewel Cod. de Episcopis et clericis L. Nullus Iewel Pag. 637. Iustinian the Emperour him selfe vvho of al others most enlarged the Churches priuileges saith thus Nullus Episcopus inuitus ad ciuilem vel militarem iudicem in qualibet causa producatum vel exhibeatur nisi princeps iubeat Let no Bishop be brought or presented against his vvil before the captaine or Ciuil Iudge vvhat so euer the cause be onlesse the Prince shal so commaunde it Harding Seing Iustinian as you saie of al others did most enlarge the Churches Priuileges is it likely that he would most of al others breake them And whereas he made a lawe Authent 83. Coll. 6. vt Clerici apud proprios Episcopos that Clerici apud proprios Episcopos conueniantur primùm Clerkes shoulde be conuented first before their owne Bishoppes in causa pecuniaria in a money mater and afterwarde before the Ciuil Magistrate if either for the nature of the cause or for some other difficultie the Bishop could not ende it yet he
that a Christian Prince may lawfully cal a Bishop to his Consistorie for matters of Faith and Ecclesiastical causes And not hable to do that you tel vs like a Trifler that if the cause be criminal a Bishop may be conuented before the Lieutenant And in so doing you prooue that which no man denieth As Cranmare Archebishop of Cantorburie was called to the Princes Consistorie Cranmare and imprisoned in the Tower for treason against the Quenes Maiestie and afterwarde degraded and burned at Oxford for heresie So any Bishop for like treason or like hainous and criminal offence may not only be summoned to the Princes seate of Iudgement but also be cast into prison and after degradation according to the Canons be depriued of his life This we do not denie But that whiche we denie and you should prooue for I must tel you one thing often bicause you are alwaies forgetful of the very point that is in controuersie is that in matter of Faith and in Ecclesiastical causes a Prince may cal Bishops to his consistorie as their superiour and gouernour in Ecclesiastical causes This is the matter in controuersie betwen you and the Catholiques M. Iewel Let vs heare how substanrially you proue that Iewel Pag. 638. Pope Innocentius 3. him selfe confesseth De maior obedient ca. 2. Innocent 11. q. 1. Cleric nullus that the Pope may make a laie man his Delegate to heare and determine in Priestes causes The like hereof ye maie finde in your ovvne Glose Papa laico delegat causam spiritualem The Pope committeth the hearing of a spiritual mater vnto a laie man Harding If any reason may be forced vpon the Authoritie of Innocentius and the Glose to your purpose it is this The Pope may make a Laie man his Delegate to heare and determine Priests causes Ergo Bishops and Priestes may be conuented before the Ciuil Magistrate in Ecclesiastical causes But to vnrippe the rudenes of this Argument imagine M. Iewel that you were infamous for Simonie and accursed for extorsion and vniuste exactions amongest the clergie of Sarisburie Dioces vnder the name of a beneuolence towardes the setting vp of your howse And that the Metropolitane hearing of it fearing least great dishonour should rise to your Person and infamie to the Gospel as ye cal it would haue the mater examined and to that ende sendeth a commission to the Maior and Bailiffes of Sarisburie and maketh them his Delegates to examine and enquire of your doinges and that the Maior and Bailiffes vppon vertue of that Commission from the Metropolitane conuent you before them Al this then imagined to be true shal it be said that M. Iewel was conuented in a cause of Simonie and extorsion before the Maior and Bailiffes of Sarisburie as Maior and Bailiffes of Sarisburie or as commissioners and delegates from the Metropolitane If you confesse that you were conuented before them as the Metropolitanes Delegates then must you confesse that you were not conuented before them as Maior and Bailiffes of Sarisburie and mere laie Magistrates In like manner when the Pope maketh a Laie man his delegate to heare and determine Priestes causes the Priestes cause whiche is hearde and determined by that Laie man so delegated by the Pope can not be said to be heard and determined by a Laie man as a Laie man but by the Popes Delegate And seing Extr. de offic Deleg c. Sanè Delegatus gerit vices delegantis a degate susteineth the steede of him that geueth him commission the Bishop or Priest who is conuented before the Popes delegate shal be said to be conuented before the Pope him selfe and not before the Laie Magistrate as a mere Ciuile and temporal Magistrate M. Ievvel begileth his Reader vvith false allegations But what meane you M. Iewel thus to begyle your Readers with false allegations Innocentius hath no such wordes as you reporte de Maior obedient cap. 2. Innocent Neither is the Decree that is there registred the Decree of Innocentius but of Gregorius and nothing at al God wote to the purpose for which ye allege it More ouer the Glose brought out of the 11. cause and first question saith not Papa Laico delegat causam spiritualem the Pope committeth the hearing of a spiritual mater vnto a Laie man but Si Papa if the Pope doo committe a spiritual mater to a Laie man And what then M. Iewel Forsooth in that case a Clerke maie be conuented before a temporal Iudge But that temporal Iudge is the Popes delegate and deriueth his authoritie from him as the Commissioners in London haue their authoritie from the Queene So that the exceptions there alleged by the glose proue ius commune esse in contrarium that the common lawe is to the contrarie that is that no Bishop or Prieste ought to be conuented before a Ciuile Magistrate Iewel Pag. 638. Yea further ye shal finde euen in the Popes ovvne Decrees that the Pope hath committed a spiritual mater in a cause of Simonie to be heard 2. q. 5. Mennam and ended by a vvoman and that Brunichildis being a vvoman by Vertue of the Popes commission summoned a Bisshop to appeare and solemnely to make his purgation before her Harding If the Pope did euer committe any spiritual cause to a woman VVhat vvas that Brunichildis had to do in the cause of Menna by coÌ„missioÌ„ of S. Gregorie as you tel vs he did to Brunichildis Queene of Fraunce then was the Queene of Fraunce by your Confession the Popes commissioner in that cause and Delegate to heare and ende that mater of Simonie But what if we can not finde in the Popes Decrees to whiche you referre vs that the Pope euer committed a spiritual mater in a cause of Simonie to be heard and ended by a woman and that Brunichildis had neither commission from the Pope to summon a Bishoppe neither euer summoned a Bishop to appeare and solemnely to make his purgation before her What then shal we say but that M. Iewel is a shamelesse falsifier a deceiuer of al that beleeue him The wordes of that Decree being the woordes of S. Gregorie Grego lib. 11. epist 8. 2. q. 4. Mennam stand thus Mennam verò reuerendissimum fratrem coëpiscopum nostrum post quà m ea quae de eâ—… dicta sunt requirentes in nullo inuenimus esse culpabilem qui insuper ad Sacratissimum corpus beati Petri Apostoli sub iureiurando satisfaciens ab ijs quae obiecta fuerant eius opinioni se demonstrauit alienum reuerti illum purgatum absolutúmque permisimus quia sicut dignum erat vt si in aliquo reus existeret culpam in eo canonicè puniremus Ita dignum non fuit vt eum adiuuante innocentia diutius retinere vel affligere in aliquo deberemus Purgationem tamen antè duobus sibi sacerdotibus iunctis vbi accusator cessauerit eundem ex se praebere tuo commisimus arbitrio We
The Emperour Constantinus in his letters to the people of Nicomodia Theodorit li. 1. c. 19. speaking of the vvilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes saith thus Illorum temeraria praesumptio mea hoc est ministri Christi manu coercebitur Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande that is to saie by the hande of Christes seruant August cōtra epist Parme. li. 1. cap. 7. So likevvise S. Augustine saith to the Donatistes An fortè de religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Cur ergo ad Imperatorem legati vestri venerant Is it not lavvful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie shoulde pronounce in a case of Religion VVherefore then vvent your ovvne Ambassadours to the Emperour Harding If you had said M. Iewel that Constantinus in his epistle to the Nicomedians had threatned to pounishe Bishoppes and Priestes that were Arians that is cursed and abominable heretiques you had in some parte said the truthe But where you saie that he spake of the wilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes and adde not Arian Priestes and Arian Bishoppes you conceele parte of the true Storie and declare your malicious hart against Priestes and Bishoppes But to leaue that cankred spite of yours to the iudgement of God why doo ye not report the Emperours wordes as they are in your authour Theodoritus M. Ievvels corruptiō Wil you neuer leaue this your accustomed vile corruption Theodoritus saith not as you reporte but thus Theodorit lib. 1. cap. 19. Quòd si quis audacter inconsultéque ad memoriam laudē pestium illarū exarserit illius statim audacia ministri Dei hoc est mea executione coercebitur If any man be inflamed boldely and incircumspectly at the remembrance and cōmendation of those wicked and pestilent heretiques his boldenes shal be repressed straightwaie by execution done by me that am the minister of God And these threatning wordes of the Emperour are to be referred to the people of Nicodemia for to them the epistle was directed And hauing tēporal iurisdiction as power of life and death ouer them he put that terrour into their hartes that they should be neither in loue nor in admiration of those accursed Bishoppes whom he had bannished for the Arian heresie Or if M. Iewel wil haue those wordes of the Emperour to be referred as wel to the Bishoppes and Priestes as to the laie people Let him vnderstand that as it is lawful for any Prince to pounish heretiques that are excommunicate by the Churche and deliuered to the secular power be they Bishoppes or priestes So it was lawful for Constantine to pounishe these wicked Arian Bishoppes excommunicated and accused by the. 318. Bishoppes in the Councel of Nice And as the prince that now as an executour of Iustice pounisheth heretikes by death is not for that cōsideration neither iudge in causes of heresie nor supreme gouernour of the Churche So Constantine at that time had no iurisdiction ouer Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes albeit he bannished them and threatned them other pounishmēt if they fel in loue of those cursed Arians For the princes threatning of pounishment for heresie is no argument to build a superioritie in ecclesiastical causes As for the place whiche you bring out of S. Augustine you brought it before in your Replie to proue that Emperours might receiue Appeales in ecclesiastical causes Art 4. fol. 104. 105 106. And a sufficient answere was made vnto it in the Returne of Vntruthes vpon you Why conceele you that If you had ben studious of the truthe for Goddes sake you should haue yelded vnto it or if you had iudged it false haue confuted it and not let it passe in silence and now trouble the Reader with the same stuffe againe But peraduenture you wil saie that you neuer sawe that booke and therefore that you dissemble not the answer If it were credible that you would not see a booke written directely against you and one that toucheth you so neare this excuse were tolerable But seing it hath no colour of truthe there can be litle pretended to saue you from the gilte of dissimulation and hypocrisie in this case I answere you therefore as he did S. Augustine spake in that place against the stubborne Donatistes of whom Parmenianus was one whiche complained that the Emperour Constantine eos ad campum id est ad supplicium duci iussit commaunded them to be brought foorth into the fielde that is to pounishement And in reasoning against him he tooke aduantage of his owne doinges not as allowing the Appeale to the Emperour but as prouing him vnreasonable who for aduantage would appeale to the Emperour and when the Emperour had pronounced sentence against him would striue and repine at the sentence and saie that he being a temporal prince ought not to pounishe Bishoppes Like as if you M. Iewel hauing made the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche should saie in case you were condemned of heresie or of Simonie by the Prince Her grace ought not to condemne me in these cases a Catholique that flattereth her not with that title would reason against you and saie No sir Is it not laweful for the Queene to condemne you in a case of heresie and Simonie Why then made you the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche Euen so did S. Augustine reason against the Donatistes And bicause by their appeale to his Maiestie they had chosen him iudge in their cause and after said he could not condemne them S. Augustine vsed their owne weapon against them to cōuince their folie and said as you saie Is it not lawful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie should pronounce in a case of Religion Wherefore then went your owne Ambassadours to the Emperour c. But as the Catholique reasoning in suche wise against you can not be said by that to allowe the Queenes supremacie So S. Augustine in this talke against the Donatistes can not be said to allowe the Emperours authoritie in condemning of Bishoppes and other ecclesiastical causes For he answering an other Donatiste that said Augustinus epist 162. Non debuit episcopus proconsulari iudicio purgari a Bishop ought not to make his purgation before a temporal magistrate said If he be worthy to be blamed whom the temporal iudge hath absolued whereas he him selfe did not require it how much more are they to be blamed whiche would haue a temporal prince to be iudge in their cause By this it appeareth that he thought that Princes could not be iudges ouer Bishoppes Ibidem Moreouer he reporteth that Constantine who appointed iudges to heare their cause did it à sanctis Antistitibus veniam petiturus as minding to aske pardon of the holy Bishoppes for his facte And the same Emperour seing their importunitie in repairing to him as iudge said Optatus li. 1. cōtra Parmen O rabida furoris audacia Sicut in causis
the loose life of some whom the people nameth good and godly menne You haue fasly turned his wordes for he saith not as you make him to speake that they recken Fornication to be but a litle petite faulte He saith vt leue commissum neutiquam refugiunt they flee it not as if it were but a light offence Iacobus de Valentia Iacobus de Valentia whom also you allege maketh quite against you For naming Iewes and Saracenes and il Christian menne expressely he semeth not to meane the Popes Canonistes whom here you burthen with mainetenance of Fornication whiche sortâ—… of menne he would not haue letted to name had the matter ben so cleare as you sclaunder them Touching that you tel vs out of Antoninus and Alexander de Hales It is not worth the answering Mary aâ— for that you bring vs S. Augustine bicause worthily he is of great auctoritie it is wel to be weighed what he saith Thus you make him to tel his tale or rather your owne tale For his it is not as you set it forthe Iewel Pag. 361. And likevvise S. Augustine Illa Fornicatio quam faciunt August in quaest in Exod. quaestion 20. qui vxores non habent cum foeminis quae viros non habent an prohibita inueniri possit ignoro That kinde of fornication vvhiche Single menne committe vvith Single vvomenne vvhetber it be forbidden or no I can not tel Thus you haue M. Harding not onely vvhat your Canonistes but also vvhat your Schoole Doctors haue taught and thought of Simple Fornication Harding What M. Iewel M. Ievv maketh S. Augustin to be ignorant vvhether Simple Fornication be forbidden or no. are you so farre become the Deuils slaue that now he maie vse your seruice not onely to persuade menne to beleeue false Doctrine but also to leade a wicked life And the rather to perfourme this make you S. Augustine to say that he can not tel whether Simple Fornication be forbidden or no Who is to be beleeued if S. Augustine be not And if he being so great a learned man as euer Christes Churche had could not tel whether Simple Fornication be forbidden or no who is he that can tel And if there be no man that can tel vs it is forbidden the same once persuaded the inclination to the fulfilling of fleshly luste being in mankinde so general what a window yea what a wide gate shal be opened to menne to rush in and without al conscienceâ— to follow filthy pleasure But where hath S. Augustine this saying Your cotation hath thus August in quaest in Exod. quaest 20. Certainely in that shorte Chapter he saith no such thing What maie we thinke that of purpose you haue lâ—ad your Reader awaie from the place leaste your falshed should be espied and least you should be taken as they saie with the manner Truly it is not vnlike O M. Iewel though we beare with you in your common custome of falsifying the places ye allege yet thinke not that we maie wincke at you when by the vse of that sleight you open a way vnto so great wickednes and edifie vnto hel The place from whence you tooke these wordes is in S. Augustine Quaestoinum super Exodum lib. 2. quaest 71. To open and set forth the circumstance of the pointes whereof he disputeth there it were very long The learned maie reade him Hauing said that the woman committeth Aduouterie which hath carnal companie with a man that is not her husband though he haue no wife and that the man likewise committeth Aduouterie by sinning with her that is not his wife though she haue no husband Hovv fornicatioÌ„ is forbiddeÌ„ in the Decalogus He addeth further Sed vtrum si faciat c But if one doo this who hath no wife with a woman that hath no husband whether in this case bothe be holden for transgressours of the precepte he meaneth this precepte Thou shalt not committe Aduouterie The Question is for good cause moued For if they be not giltye of transgression Moechia Aduouterie called Fornication in the Scriptures then is not Fornication forbidden in the Decalogus that is to saie in the ten Commaundementes but onely Moechia that is Aduouterie howbeit al Aduouterie is vnderstaÌ„ded to be FornicatioÌ„ as the Scriptures speake For our Lord saith in the Gospel whosoeuer putteth away his wife Scriptures the cause of Fornication excepte causeth her Moechari to commit Aduouterie This he calleth Fornication if she sinne with an other man that hath a husbande whiche thing is Moechia that is Adulterium Aduouterie And so al Moechia Aduouterie in the Scriptures is called also Fornication But on the other side whether al Fornication maie be called Moechia Aduouterie vvhether fornication be called aduouterie in the Scritures in the same Scriptures I can not yet cal to my minde the example of suche a speache Now folow the wordes that M Iewel would seeme to allege and hath alleged falsely Sed si non omnis Fornicatio etiam Moechia dici potest vbi sit in Decalogo prohibita illa Fornicatio quam faciunt viri qui vxores non habent cum foeminis quae maritos non habent vtrum inueniri possit ignoro but if it be so that al Fornication can not be called also Moechia aduouterie where that Fornication which men commit that haue no wiues with women that haue no husbandes is forbidden in the table of the ten commaundementes whether it can be found or no I can not tel This is that M. Iewel S. Augustine coÌ„fessed he could not tel whether Simple Fornication were forbidden vvhat is that properly that S. Augustine here coÌ„fesseth he knevv not or no as you tel vs for he knew right wel it was forbidden but whether if al fornicatioÌ„ be not coÌ„teined in the name of Moechia aduouterie which word is expressed in the teÌ„ coÌ„maundementes that kinde of Fornication which men hauing no wiues coÌ„mit with womenne hauing no husbandes can be found forbidden he saith not al but in decalago in the table of the ten commaundementes This is that and none other thing whereof S. Augustine in that place confesseth him selfe to be ignorant Ibidem Fornication forbiddeÌ„ vnder the name of aduouterie Robberie forbiddeÌ„ vnder the name of Theafte Now that such kinde of Fornication is to be thought to be forbidden vnder the name of Moechia aduouteriâ— with these wordes he declareth there immediatly his determinate sentence and iudgement Sed si furti nomis ne benè intelligitur omnis illicita vsurpatio rei aliena non enim rapinam permisit qui furtum prohibuit sed vtique à parte totum intelligi voluit quicquid illicitè rerum proximi aufertur profectò nomine Moechiae omnis illicitus concubitus atque illorum membrorum non legitimus vsus prohibitus debet intelligi But if al vnlawful vsurpation of a thing that is an other mannes be meant by the name of Theafte for he