Holy Scripture or Fathers speak of receiving Christs pretious Body and Blood for remission of Sins and the nurishment of our Souls you answer In one kind whole Christ is received and all his Benefits by a Concomitancy If we go further and prove the Elements were receiv'd distinctly by the People in the Apostles time and for so many Ages after You answer Vsu non praecepto they receiv'd it so by Custom and not by Precept Phil. Yes And upon this account we are not troubled with all your proofs of both kinds administred to the People so many Ages of the Church seeing afterwards that Custom generally ceas'd in the Western Church and the contrary Custom was introduc'd and confirm'd by three General Councils Constance Basil and Trent Theoph. 'T is truth in the 13 th Century giving the Cup unto the Laity began to grow out of use a Part. 3. Quaest 80. Art 12. Ex parte Sacramenti convenit ut utrumque sumutur c. Aquinas moves the Question Whether it be lawful to receive Christs Body without the Blood And concludes That in regard unto the Sacrament it self it was convenient that both kinds should be received because the perfection of the Sacrament consists in both but in regard unto the Receivers reverence and caution was required and that therefore in some Churches it was well observ'd not to give the Cup unto the People And yet before the same Aquinas had determin'd b Quaest 74. Art 1. Quantum ad effect in unoquoque sumentium Saeâ—â—mentum hoc vales ad tuicionem c. As to the effect of every Receiver the Sacrament secures both Body and Soul and therefore the Body of Christ is offer'd for the salvation of the Body and the Blood under the Species of Wine for the Soul Phil. He saith 't is offer'd to wit by the Priest but not communicated to the People Theoph. Put the Proposition together it is this Bread and Wine are the Materials of the Sacrament requir'd in regard of the benefit and effect in every Communicate for the preservation of his Body and Soul by the Body and Blood of Christ Well Aquinas he starts the Question Whether it was lawful to receive in one kind and determins the Point very tenderly But after this Angelical Doctor as they call him the School-men follow the Cry with full Mouth That there is no Precept to receive in both and no prohibition to receive in one kind That upon many Considerations it is expedient to with-hold the Cup from the Laity That the Church hath power to order things of this nature and That after the express determination of the Church in some General Councils it is even become necessary to with-hold the Cup and an Heresie to dispute against it Now to prepare the World for this new practice of receiving only in one kind that so it might be entertain'd in some places and get ground and afford some plea of a Custom in the Church the School-men started some preliminary Questions and concluded That whole Christ was received under each kind and he that received only the Body of Christ received likewise his Blood and Soul and Divinity by a concomitancy 2 sy That the whole intent of the Sacrament as to the People all the Essentials thereof were communicated under the Species of Bread with the Body of Christ. 3 sy That he who received in both kinds had no advantage of those who receiv'd only in one kind Altho we find this last Thesis not so generally admitted among themselves yet such as oppose must not be peremtory least the People should be sensible of some injury don them in being depriv'd of that benefit which should be exhibited more in both kinds then in one Phil. By your own relation you give us opportunity to observe how they proceeded upon good grounds and in a rational way to make good their Thesis and their practice of the Communion in one kind Theoph. It was necessary they should say somthing to endere the People unto a compliance designing to cheat them of one half of the Sacrament they would impose upon their credulity and tell them the other half which they receiv'd was as beneficial as the whole Phil. You are not ignorant how they shew many good Causes and Considerations for their with-holding the Cup and notwithstanding your pretensions and claim to the practice of the Church for so many Ages on your side our Doctors shew it was always free to communicate in one kind or in both and shew the early practice of the Church for this half Communion as you call it and I hope you will now give me leave to put in their Plea Theoph. Content And if you can ballance those Autorities which I have brought I will yield the Cause Phil. I am glad to see in you some hopes of Moderation and that you will be rul'd by Reason and Autority Theoph. Taking Christs Institution and the Holy Scripture along with us Phil. 'T is suppos'd there is no express Precept of Christ to determine the Church in all Ages to give the Communion in both kinds and where the Church is left free she may use her liberty and determin as occasion serves Theoph. You beg the Question and we have urg'd Christs Institution and Example in giving the Sacrament in both kinds and his Command to them to do likewise We have urg'd the Traditions of St. Paul the practice of the Apostolical Tunes Phil. You have urged and we have answered and let the impartial Reader judg between us but besides these Instances of the Sacrament in one kind out of the Holy Scripture Luke 24. Acts 2. 42. and 20. 7. we have also Testimonies of the Primitive Church which speak on our side Theoph. We have prov'd our way abundantly by the practice of so many Ages do you so yours and then I will grant we are left free in this case every one to do as seemeth good in his eyes Phil. Not so neither when the Church hath restrain'd this liberty and forbid the Cup. Theoph. Whether your Church hath done better in the restraint then the Church for so many Ages before in allowing that Christian Liberty which you pretend for to receive in one or both kinds let the World judg but we deny any such liberty taken by the Church or allow'd by Christ to communicate in one or both kinds as the Church should please and we desire your proof Phil. First Bellarmin proves it lawful to communicate in one kind because the Church never condemn'd it Theoph. You should prove that they allow'd it But how should they condemn that which was not practic'd Could they divine a new Generation of Monks and Fryars should arise and perswade the People by subtlety and craft to lose their Spiritual Birth-right half the Legacy of Christ or rather the whole in a maim'd and undue Administration And moreover you have heard when the Manichees and other Heretics would have brought up this
Scriptures should be obscure in some places least that being evident to all Men they should be cheap and contemtible Theoph. This is in truth an occult cause the usual refuge of such as can give no reason I may call this the mystery of your Church if not the mystery of Iniquity That God design'd some things in his Word and in his Service should be concel'd from the vulgar least they should breed contemt I had thought the Word of God the more it was understood and discovered the more veneration it would procure and so all the Mysteries of the Gospel The Jews indeed had their veils and partitions and into the inner Tabernacle only the High Priest did enter once every Year and into the outward Tabernacle the Priests every day and the People stood in the outward Courts The Holy Ghost thus signifying Heb. 9. 8. That the way into the Holiest of all was not yet mado manifest while as the first Tabernacle was yet standing saith the Apostle But then speaking of their condition under the Gospel he adds Heb. 10. 19 20. But we Brethren have boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus by a new and living way which he hath consecrated for us When Christ was Crucified the veil of the Temple rent from top to bottom that which was hidden was made manifest Prophesies fulfill'd and Mysteries revel'd The Gospel is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ the great Light of the World whose property is to discover not to concele and least the Majesty of such glorious Truths and Mysteries revel'd should dazle the Eies of our Understanding lo they are clothed in Scripture with humility of speech And S t Augustin b Tom. 2. Epistola 3. ad Volusianum Invital omnes humili sermone quos non solam manifestâ Pascat sed secretâ exerceat veritate tells us The Holy Scriptures invite all to read and understand them by their great condescention to our capacities feeding all not only with manifest Truths but also with hidden verities Let us therefore never speak of design'd concelements in the Gospel of Christ wherein the mystery which hath bin hid from ages and from generations is now made manifest unto the Saints as S t Paul speaks Coloss 1. 26. And the same Apostle expresly tells us 2 Cor. 4. 3 4. If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost In whom the God of this World hath blinded the minds of them which believe not least the Light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the Image of God should shine unto them And now I pray tell me Have you found your Arguments unanswerable never believe the wit of Man can bring Demonstrations against the Truths of God Your great Champion Bellarmine hath not brought a probable Argument against the Peoples reading and hearing the Holy Scripture and Divine Service in the vulgar Tongue which is at present the Controversie between us Phil. If your self be Judge the Question is determined But I have not yet done until I have propos'd two serious Considerations more against publishing the Holy Scriptures in the vulgar Tongue wherewith Peter Sutor a Carthusian hath furnish'd me The first is this a Mulierculae in Lect. Bibl. versantes curam rei domesticae negligent Idiotae huic negotio dediti non curabant c. De tralat Bib. c. 22. p. 96. It will make Laborers Men and Women neglect their business whil'st they spend the time in reading the Scripture which they should imploy about their houshold affairs and necessary occupations Theoph. This is a great Crime tending to the ruine of many Families But alas too general experience proves the contrary that Men and Women are not so easily drawn from the cares and business of the World to mind Heavenly things from idle Communications to the Holy Scriptures You have heard how Chrysostom complains of the contrary That such as had Bibles never look'd into them bound them up in costly Covers and lock'd them up as hidden Treasures and they pretended the Incumbrances of the World for their excuse Our Blessed Savior in the Parable of the Sower sheweth Matth. 13. 22. How the cares of the world like thorns choke the good seed of Gods word And your Monks fear is least reading the Word should hinder the necessary cares and business of Life It seems of late the World is much alter'd for the better that the hearts of Men should be so endear'd unto the Holy Scripture that if they be not with-held from them Men would neglect their Callings But these are fond Imaginations you know the Holy Scriptures strictly enjoin every one to follow his calling 1 Cor. 7. 20. Promise the Blessing of God upon the diligent band Prov. 10. 4. and 12. 24. Command That such as will not labor should not eat 2 Thess 3. 10. And Solomon in the last Chapter of his Proverbs hath set forth a good Housewife so excellently that it is not possible a wise Woman minding that Chapter should neglect her business But what is your Carthusians second Consideration against publishing the Holy Scripture in the vulgar Tongue Phil. It seems you want work and you do so please your self with your conceited Answers that I am unwilling any longer to tickle your humor and to propose any more Objections Theoph. It is high time indeed to draw to a conclusion and therefore I did hasten you to that which you reserv'd and 't is my request it may be your last Proposal Phil. If you will needs hear it it is this If the common People should be permitted constantly to read the Holy Scripture in the vulgar Tongue b Facile plebs nuomuâ—â—bit cum sibi tot onera imponi comperiet praeter Scripturam Pet. Sutor ibâ—â—lem They would murmur against so many Burthens and Impositions of the Church which they find not required in the Book of God and so may become stubborn and disobedient to the commands of the Church Theoph. This hath hit the nail upon the head Never any Man spake more to the purpose in this Point It is a most ingenious confession That if the Scripture were permitted to be read by all sorts farewel to all the intolerable Burthens and superstitious Impositions of Rome As he that doth evil hateth the light so your Church requiring many unwarrantable superstitious things of her Children wisely keeps them from giving heed unto the Word of God which soon would discover her Impostures Phil. I beseech you Theophilus do not end a Controversie with a Quarrel You are my Guest and Friend and after these heats of Disputation it will concern me to divert you with such Civilities and slender Entertainment as the House at present will afford I hope you will resolve to tarry some time with me and give your self and me the opportunity to debate the other Points in difference between us You are as welcome as your Heart can wish A SECOND CONFERENCE CONCERNING The
not be receiv'd into the fuming Caldron of the Stomach and so keep the Sacrament from us all in your Patins and Chalices of pure Gold Phil. Another consideration is a Hyeme cito acescet Aestate putrescet That Wine will sooner grow sower and breed Worms if it be long kept as the Eucharist of Christs Body will not Theoph. Yes it will grow mouldy and vinew'd and besides the Mice may without care devour it But what needs this reservation of the Sacrament either in the Church or in our Houses Blessed be God we have Tranquility and Peace and if our Hearts did not draw back may Communicate often in the Church However you do not hold that Christs Blood under the Species of Wine can putrifie and what need you be so solicitous for the simple accidents of the Element of Wine Phil. Another thing is considerable b Fastidium bibentibus afferet Some persons may nauseate Wine and the common People are not us'd to drink Wine and so it may cause vomiting Theoph. Such an Instance seldom happening cannot prescribe against a general Rule of practice If the Stomach thro an occult quality should loath either Bread or Wine God would dispense with such a Man and likewise the Church And altho the common People do not drink Wine usually yet Experience shews that little Wine they take in the Sacrament never disturbs them Suppose I should tell them as you do It is Christs Flesh and Christs Blood really materially this would cause an abhorrency and loathing Men have not such Ganibal Stomachs easily to digest such Doctrines Phil. I pray forbear your Drollery and let me proceed In some remote c In quibusd 〈…〉 I le 〈◊〉 Countries near the Pole Wine cannot be had without great difficulty And shall they therefore forbear the Sacrament Theoph. Unto these Countries the Seas are open and Merchants Trade and Men should take care and be at some charge to fulfil an Ordinance of Christ for the great benefit of their Souls So in many Countries there is no Corn to make Bread but what convei'd from other places And now tell me seriously Are not these pitiful Shifts and shallow Considerations Reasons flowing from a Mans Invention rather then Judgment Shall these things ballance the Institution of Christ and the Apostles practice and of the Church for so many Ages the end and signification of the Sacrament as we have manifested at large If ye had weightier Motives most of your Doctors would not produce such as these and herein you do ingeniously declare That the wit of Man with all the advantages of Human Learning cannot speak a word of sense to justifie your unreasonable Practice against the Ordinance of Christ Phil. You make too much haste I have reserv'd the best Arguments to the last Is there not reason the Clergy should have some preheminence above the People in these great Mysteries a Alias dignitas Sacerdot I 〈…〉 um pa◠esset The dignity of the Clergy requires this difference Theoph. Their dignity appears in those things which Christ hath left to their Ministration in teaching and ruling the People distributing unto Christs Flock the Divine Food of his Word and Sacraments But the Lords Supper is common to all Gods children who are invited to feed at their Fathers table upon the same Provisions they all want spiritual Food and Nurishment for their Souls and Bodies and are all Invited to come and take the Waters of Life freely and they are Inhuman and Accursed who would forbid the Lords People to draw Water out of the Well of Salvation to cheer their Hearts with this Wine of Consolation Besides it hath bin declared before unto you out of Chrysostom and Theophilact That in the Sacraments of the Church under the Gospel the Priests and People are equally concern'd Phil. The last and weightiest Consideration is this That seeing the Church representative in three General Councils hath forbid the Cup unto the People It proceeds in them from a turbulent and Schismatical Spirit to be so clamorous and importunate to have it restor'd against the Canons of the Church I will produce the Canon of the Council of Constance which first determin'd the Sacrament unto one kind b Cana Koirn The Sacred General Council of Constance lawfully Assembled in the Power of the Holy Ghost Declares Determins and Defines That altho Christ Instituted the Sacrament after Supper and gave it to his Disciples in both kinds notwithstanding this the Sacrament ought not to be celebrated after Supper nor be received by the Faithful not Fasting And likewise altho in the Primitive Church the Sacrament was received in both kinds yet to avoid some Perils and Scandals the Custom is rationally introduc'd That the Priest Consecrating should receive in both kinds but the People only in the Species of Bread You see the Council fully approves the custom and confirms it and therefore past the severe Censure following That no Priest under pain of Excommunication c Bin. part 2. Tom. 7. Sessione 1◠Concil Constant Concil Sacrum generale Constans in Spiritu sancto legit congregattum declarat c. shall Communicate the People under both kinds And declares That such as pertinaciously affirm it to be unlawful or sacrilegious to give the Sacrament in one kind shall be proceeded against as Heretics You consider not therefore what danger you incur by arguing so peremtorily against this Point Theoph. We are not solicitous for the danger in the cause of Christ and defence of Truth and we know where your Church wants reason to justifie her practice she hath the argument of the Club with severity above mesure to maintain it But let us reason calmly in the Point What Motive induc'd the Council to make such a Decree notwithstanding the Institution of Christ and the practice of the Primitive Church Phil. Your Party generally design to load the Council with the envy of that Expression Non obstante but you may observe the Council therein only had respect unto our Saviors giving the Sacrament after Supper notwithstanding which the Church appoints it to be receiv'd in the Morning and fasting Theoph. This was not the matter then in question and needed no confirmation for in the Primitive Times the Sacrament was given in the Morning and to such as were able to forbear it was given fasting But the great concern was the Communion in both kinds acknowledged to be Christs Institution and that he gave it to his Disciples in both kinds and then immediatl◠follows Hoc non obstante c. And therefore shift it off as well as you can the words of the Council decrees for the Communion in one kind notwithstanding Christs Institution and Example and the practice of the Primitive Church But however answer my question What induc'd the Council to decree it Phil. The Motive is express'd b Cum firmissime sit credendum nullatenus dubitandum c. Because we must
hath troubled all your Doctors and they mightily labor to undermine the Testimony but if you have any thing considerable to say let us hear it Phil. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Damascen answers thus That which is rare and single gives no Law to the Church and one Swallow makes no Summer nor is one Mans judgment able to overthrow the Tradition of the Catholic Church thro-out the World Where you may take notice how he declares the Tradition of the Church thro-out the World for Images Theoph. Damascen was a great Proctor for Image worship for which Zeal Leo Isaurus put out his Eyes and we shall hereafter try how his Catholic Tradition can be made good However you find he acknowledgeth the Fact of Epiphanius who was a Learned Orthodox Bishop of the Primitive Church and his Zeal was so great against Pictures in Churches That in anothers Diocess he took upon him to reform Phil. Some conceive it was no Picture of Christ or any Saint but of an Heathen for Epiphanius speaks doubtfully a Picture * Quasi Christi aut Sancti cujusdam as suppose of Christ or some Saint Theoph. You catch at every Reed in a sinking cause Epiphanius in his Letter to the Bishop of Jerusalem saith Hee had forgot whose Picture it was but it may be of Christ or some other Saint which he could not say had it bin the Image of some prophane Person and that had bin the reason of his zeal and indignation against the Picture Phil. Many others with Bellarmin suspect this relation to be added to Epiphanius his Epistle in the close for there it is a Postscript by some ill affected to Images and urge Reasons first out of the second Council of Nice the sixth Session where Epiphanius a Deacon and Representative or Vicar of the Arch-Bishop of Sardinia in that Council undertakes to answer and confute the Definition of the Council of Constantinople against Images and shews that other Passages were falsly intitled to Epiphanius even an whole Book against Images That Epiphanius in his 80 Heresies which he publish'd includes not the Heresie of making and worshipping Images which doubtless he would have done a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. if he had thought it contrary to the rule of Christ That Epiphanius his Disciples after his decease erected a Temple in honor to him and set up his Image therein which they would not have done had they known his judgment to be against Images Theoph. This is the usual knack to suspect what doth not please but most of your Doctors acknowledg the Fact as you have heard of Damascen and Alphonsus de Castro reckons Epiphanius among the Image-breakers As for the Deacons asserting many passages of Epiphanius to be suppositious we have no reason to take his word unless his Reasons carry it and they are too weak to bear the burthen of his charge for Epiphanius in 79 th Heresie doth expresly speak against the Image of the Virgin Mary as against her worship And in truth he speaks against Images in general b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c The Divel creeping into the minds of Men under a righteous pretence sets before their eyes the Image of Men whom being dead they worship and their Images had never life and yet are worship'd likewise by adulterate minds withdrawn from the one-only true God If the Story be true that Epiphanius his Disciples did set up his Image in a Temple which they built and dedicated to his honor we answer It is no new thing for Disciples to swerve from their Masters Principles and Practice The Deacons Arguments therefore do not prove this and the other passages of Epiphanius against Images to be forg'd Phil. Bellarmin hath one or two Observations more to make this passage of Epiphanius suspected of cutting the Picture Because saith he the Adversaries of Images do not mention it Theoph. I suppose he means the Bishops in the Constantinople Council against Images Now they having cited other passages against Images out of Epipharius a Con◠Nic. 2. Act. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. declare expresly That they had not brought all his Testimonies but left them to the diligent inquiry of the Learned Phil. Bellarmin cites b Epistolarum l. 9. Epistola nona Nullum Episcoporumante Serenum fregisse Imag Christi aut Sanctorum Gregory the Great asserting That Serenus was the first Bishop who brake the Images of Christ and the Saints and therefore Epiphanius did not so before him Theoph. The Pope was not Infallible and perhaps might not read this passage of Epiphanius As this Orthodox Bishop shewed his zeal against Pictures so about the same time a pious Emperor Theodosius by an Edict did forbid even the Image of Christ c Petrus Crinitus de honestâ disciplinâ lib. 9. cap. 9. Cum sit nobis cura dillgens in rebus omnibus supremi numinis religionem tueri signum salvatoris nostri Christi nemini concedimus pingere sed quodcunque reperitur tolli jubemus Having a studious care in all things to desend the Religion of the most high God we permit none to carve or paint any Image of our Savior Christ in colours stone or any other matter and command such Pictures to be taken away wheresoever they are found resolving severely to punish all such as do contrary to our command And so we are led unto another Instance of Serenus Bishop of Marseils who brake down all the Images and Pictures in Churches thro-out his Diocess about the year 600. when Gregory the Great was Pope who writes an Epistle to Serenus reprehending the Fact as proceeding from inconsiderat zeal d Epistolarum l. 9. Epist nona Quid inconsiderato zelo succensus Sanctorum Imagines confregeris And whereas the Bishop made his Plea That he remov'd them out of Churches and brake the Images because the People were prone to worship them That he forbid the worship of them the Pope approves for it is written saith he Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve And at length he gives this advice e Si quis Imag. facere voluerit minime probibe c. If any destres to make or to have an Image forbid him not But by all means take care that no man worship them Phil. This Testimony of Gregory approves the Images of the Saints for History and Ornament altho he forbids the worship of them and we are not yet come to that point Your Instances from the Eliberitan Canon from Epiphanius and Serenus are against the Images themselves not their worship Theoph. Those Holy Bishops were offended with Pictures in Churches because they might be occasion of Idolatry the People inclining to give Religious worship to them as Serenus made his Plea Phil. Notwithstanding such panic fears you know as Bellarmin shews God placed the Cherubins in the Ark. Theoph. In the inward Tabernacle over the Mercy-seat where
horns hath little strength but could he have added to them this fifth Horn That the Word of God approveth the Invocation of the dead as of the living we must have fled before it But alas all the attemts to confirm this Doctrine of your Church out of Holy Writ have prov'd so unsuccessful that some of your own Doctors have had so much Ingenuity as to acknowledg That it is not expresly delivered in Holy Scripture So a Invocatio Sanctorum non expresse traditur in Script Eccius in his Enchiridion of Catholic Confession and therefore it must pass for an unwritten Tradition whereof Martin Peresius confesseth we have b De Trad. p. 3. consid 7. Ne vestigium ante divum Cyprianum no footsteps before Cyprian Phil. Peresius gives a rational account together with others why the Holy Apostles did not lay the foundation of this Doctrine It was say they c Causa erat humilitas mod Apostolorum nese Deos facerent out of their great humility and modesty least they should appear to establish in the Church their own Apotheosis make themselves as Gods by directing the People of God to put up their Supplications after their decease to them Theoph. Methinks That which prevail'd with the Apostles not to deliver this Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints should likewise have prevail'd with the Church never to have establish'd it and without doubt had it bin according to the will of God and profitable to the Church the Holy Apostles would never have concel'd it out of modesty and humility S t Paul declares expresly to the Church of Ephesus Acts 20. 19 20. That serving God with all humility of mind he had kept back nothing that was profitable unto them And doubtless it was presumtion and pride which introduc'd this Error tho under shew of voluntary humility for if the Apostles were afraid to recommend themselves as Gods unto the People by giving them directions to pray to them after their decease the Pope who undertakes to Canonize Saints and to encourage the People of God to pray to them in spight of the Apostles humility and fear takes the boldness upon him to make them as God Phil. You make so many Excursions that you come not to the Point How do you answer the four Particulars of Bellarmins Argument Theoph. I have already cut off the four Horns with one blow He saith That if we may not pray to the Saints departed as well as desire their Praiers when living it must be for one of those four causes fore-mentioned either they are not willing or are not able to pray for us or they cannot hear our Praiers or their Intercession would be injurious unto Christs Intercession but I say is enumeration is lame and imperfect for I have shew'd a fifth reason why not because the Word of God obligeth not to one as to the other It requires that we should desire the mutual assistance of one anothers Praiers living but not after our decease all civil commerce being intercepted by the will of God between the living and the dead Phil. Do you reckon our Invocation of the Saints departed a part of civil commerce I thought it had bin a Religious act and duty Theoph. I grant Praier to be such and therefore a part of Divine Worship to be given only to God But that Invocation of Holy Men living as you call it or as I term it That pious desire and request which one Christian makes unto another that he may enjoy the benefit of his Praiers from whence you draw an Argument for Invocation after their decease that doubtless is a civil Request wherewith Christians mutually call upon and oblige one another to remember them in their Praiers So likewise the honor which Subjects yield unto their Prince presenting their Petitions with bended knees is civil And so Children begging the Blessing of their Parents these are formally Civil not Religious Acts. A good Christian indeed gives honor to his Prince and to his Parents not only upon a civil account but also Religious it being a duty requir'd in the Word of God yet the honor it self is civil the motive unto us wherefore we give it is Religious the will and command of God Phil. You are willing to involve the Discourse with subtle Notions and nice Distinctions Such honor as you give to Princes and Parents vouchsafe to the Saints in Glory begging the assistance of their Praiers upon your knees and it shall suffice Theoph. Your self caus'd this Digression You suppos'd the Invocation of Saints departed to be a Religious act and so in truth you generally make it a great part of your Religion I have shewed how the desire and request which Christians make to one another whilst they are in the Flesh mutually to be remembred in their Praiers is a civil request and therefore no sufficient ground for your Religious Invocation of the Saints in glory But at length you are content we should make the same civil Requests to the Saints in Heaven for their Praiers as to the Faithful who are living You may observe it generally such as are in the wrong will accept of any composition But we cannot grant it for this reason because Death intercepts all civil Obligations and Commerce between Persons Parents when they are dead cease to be provident for their deer Children and these expect it not from them The rich Man departed cannot relieve the poor nor lend him Money at his need You formerly did urge there was a communion between the Church Militant and Triumphant but that is mystical as Fellow-members of Christs Body But the civil communion between Brethren and Neighbors and the relation of Parents and Children Masters and Servants Princes and Subjects Husband and Wife is interrupted altogether by death and so by consequence all those acts which depend upon or flow from that communion That Children should ask their Fathers Blessing after his decease I never yet did read your Doctors have asserted Phil. I am well confirm'd by these your Digressions That notwithstanding you would appear to slight Bellarmins Argument and pretend to cut off all the four Horns at one blow by giving a general answer yet in truth you do warily decline the force of it and are not willing to come to the four Particulars whereupon he hath insisted That seeing the Saints departed are as willing and as able to help us now with their Praiers as when they were living amongst us and seeing they know our state and can hear and receive our Addresses to them and seeing their Intercession now for us is not injurious to the Intercession of Christ therefore we have as much and more reason to Invocate them now in Heaven then when they were conversant with us upon Earth Theoph. Not excluding the confutation already given I will now take these four Particulars into consideration The two first may easily be granted if there could be mutual communion between them and us
not doubt but stedfastly believe That whole Christ his Body and Blood is contain'd under either Species of the Sacrament And therefore such a custom of giving the Sacrament in one kind introduc'd by the Church and the Holy Fathers and observ'd for a most long time let it be taken for a Law Theoph. The first part is warily penn'd c Tam sub Specie panis quam sub specie vini veraciter contineri We must stedfastly believe that whole Christ is verily contain'd as well under one Species as the other So it may be if it be in neither and so we hold Christ is contain'd in neither singly but he is signified and Sacramentally represented and really and spiritually exhibited by the Sacrament in both kinds unto the Faithful Receiver His Body that was broken for us is signified by breaking of Bread and his Blood shed by the Wine poured out of the Cup and separated from the Bread in the Sacrament and therefore at present we will dismiss this School nicety and by the Councils leave not take it for granted That whole Christ Body and Soul is in either Species Quod nullus Presbyter sub poena Excommunicat communicet Populum sub utraque Specie But the principal motive follows Seeing such a custom of giving the Sacrament in one kind hath been introduc'd and most long observ'd by the Church and Fathers we Decree it shall be taken for a Law which shall not be changed or reprobated without the Autority of the Church b Bin. Tom. 8. Concil Basil Sess 30. Sub qualibet Specie est integer totus Christus landab quoque consuet commun Laices c. The Council of Basil makes and confirms the same Decree upon the same Motives Whole and intire Christ is under either kind and the laudable custom of Communicating the Laity under one kind induc'd by Church and Fathers and hither to most long observ'd and approv'd by Doctors skilful in Gods Law and in the Holy Scripture and in Church Canons long since Let it be a Law c. Phil. Yes The Custom and Practice of the Church should prevail with sober Men not given to Faction especially when confirm'd by General Conncils Theoph. Why should not then the Custom and Practice of the Church which we have prov'd for so many Ages prevail for administring the Sacrament in both kinds especially being exactly conformable unto Christs Institution and Command and Apostolical Tradition Phil. Stay there We absolutely deny any command of Christ or of his Apostles or of the Church representative in a General Council to administer the Sacrament in both kinds and we shew two Councils forbidding it Theoph. You deny but the Scriptures affirm And the reason why no General Council determin'd the Sacrament to be in both kinds was because the Institution of Christ and the Tradition of the Apostles and the practice of the whole Church was so full and express for it It was never put to the Question as I can find until the 13 th Century and from that time when the School-men began to swarm most of them being sworn Champions of the See of Rome The laudable Custom as the Council speaks approv'd by Holy Fathers viz. Monks and Friers crept insensibly into the Church And this must be made a ground of Canons to establish the Communion in one kind and forbid the Cup and declare a Curse upon all those that shall dispute it And now when I shall declare the reason I hope your goodness will excuse that great trouble to my self and you in those numerous Quotations and Testimonies I have brought to prove the practice of the Church for 1200 Years in giving the Sacrament unto the People in both kinds It was chiefly upon this design to manifest the gross absurdity of those two Councils Constance and Basil who as you have heard do ground their Decree for one kind upon the laudable custom of the Church taken up not above 100 Years before against the Institution of Christ and the conformable practice of the Church for 1200 Years And withal to manifest their impudence in calling that a custom rationally introduc'd when such a Diutissime obs trifling Motives are brought to establish it And in saying it was diutissime observata for a long time observ'd when they cannot shew one clear Instance save in the Age immediatly before That the Sacrament was administred in public in one kind in any Christian Church Phil. It doth not become your Prudence and Moderation so to undervalue General Councils Theoph. Alass Those two pitiful Councils of Constance and Easil you may call them Oecumenical but you give no more Autority to them then you think fit As far as their Decrees suit the Genius of the Court of Rome they are confirm'd and no farther a Part. 2. Tom. 7. pag. 1134. Exparte Approbatum in iis quae consra Wicclesum c. Binius in his Notes upon the Council of Constance tells us It was approv'd in part in those Decrees against Wicliff Husse and Jerome of Prague But in the determination of the Autority of a General Council above the Pope it was abrogated by two General Councils of Florence and the Lateran b Bin. Tom. 8. Sâ—ss 34. Câ—nâ— Basil Tan suum Simâ—niacum perjurum incorig Scismaticum fide devium injurium bonarum Ecclesiâ—e pâ—â—ditorâ—m So the Council of Basil deposing Eugenius the 4 th from his Papacy As a Simoniacal and perâ— jur'd Man an incorrigible Schismatic erring from the Faith injurious and betraying the Goods of the Church And choosing Amadeus Duke of Savoy Pope called Felix the fifth and Declaring That a Council is above the Pope and hath its Power immediatly from Christ Alas for these things this poor Council is hist off the Stage of the World c Sess 11. Bin in notis in Concil â—asil p. 526. Conciliabulum Schismat c. And in the Lateran General Council under Leo the 10 th It is call'd a Schismatical and Seditious Conventicle and altogether of no Autority And yet these are the Councils upon whose Aurority you so much depend to establish your half Communion and pronounce us all Heretical and Contumacious for not submitting our Reason and our Consciences thereunto even against the Scripture and against the Fathers of the Church Phil. But the General Council of Trent hath no Exception being held 18 years and confirm'd by Pope Pius the fourth and subscrib'd by his Cardinals as appears by the Bull of Confirmation See the Council of Trent set forth in Latin by John Gallemart D. D. and Professor at Douey Theoph. Of the Council of Trent read the History of Father Paul a Frier at Venice a Man of Learning Judgment and Piety beyond compare and there you will find what just cause the World â—ath to decline the Autority and Decrees of that Cabal That great Ecclesiastical Body whose Soul and Spirit was at Rome receiving day by day Orders and Directions and
Determinations from thence in a Portmantle The Bishops and Fathers of the Council were acted more by Reasons of State and Principles of Policy then of Piety and consulted the Pope and the Conclave at Rome more then the Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church And withal you have no reason to urge us of England with the Autority of the Trent Council when none of our Bishops were there except only one fugitive And as I take it our Potent Neighbors of France have not yet accepted that Council and withal the Council is of too late an Edition to bear up its Autority against the consent and practice of so many Ages of the Church And therefore being now grown weary of the Controversie be pleas'd to answer this Question and we will conclude Why doth the Church persist so stifly to maintain the Communion in one kind against so many advantages we have shew'd and you must acknowledg on the other side especially seeing in the Council of Trent it was so much desir'd by the Emperor Charles the Fifth and by the Princes and People of Germany well affected so to make up the breach and keep many from falling away from the Church of Rome that the Council of Trent would allow the Communion in both kinds yet we find it was not granted but referr'd wholly to the Popes determination who never had leisure to take his infallible Chair and determine that Controversie Phil. To speak freely The Fathers of that Council and the Pope with his Cardinals at Rome in their Wisdom did well perceive that such as moved for the Communion in both kinds were dis-affected to the Church and made this a specious bait to catch the People They saw their Concessions in this plausible case would but make way for many complaints more and grievances to be redress'd You know not long before the Germans publish'd in Print their first a Centum gravamina Century of Grievances every Article being as a Libel against the Church Hereupon they thought it the wisest course to justifie the former Councils and stand upon their Autority and require subjection from the true Sons of the Church and as for Heretics and Schismatics either to subdue them by subtlety and force or else to slight them Theoph. This Observation of yours confirms many Passages we read of Bishops b Joannes Baptistà Hosius Episcopus Rbeatinus Lib. 4. Gonc Trid. Sess 2. Ecclesia nunquam consueverit vel minimum indulg heriticis c. in that Council giving their Vote upon the Question who mightily oppos'd the allowance of the Cup and urg'd That the Church was never observed to give the least Indulgence unto Heretics but to establish that which was diametrically opposite to their Positions c Andreas Cuâ—sta Episcopus Legionensis Another Bishop seconds this Opinion with the Example of the first General Council of Nice wherein those 318. Holy Fathers would not yield one tittle to the Arrians altho Constantine desired moderation and the Controversie had well nigh set in a flame the whole World d A verbis commoda interpretatione molliendis ex composito abstinuerunt Nay saith he they studiously rejected many Words and Expressions of the Arrians which were capable of a convenient Interpretation And thus you see with what intolerable Impudence they accounted their Christian Brethren as Heretics for following the plain Institution of Christ The Arrians found no favor in the Council of Nice from those Orthodox and Godly Fathers nor the least degree of complyance neither must the Protestants in Germany from the Council of Trent But there was somthing more in the Wind that hindred the Reformation of the See of Rome namely this That if upon the complaint of Nations and People the Pope should reform abuses especially such as had been Decreed in Councils It would be a tacite acknowledgment that the Church of Rome had solemnly erred in making such unjustifiable Decrees and so the jealous People would begin to suspect and examine all her Determinations and be easily perswaded by their Schismatical Guides that in many things the Church had miscarried and Bills of exceptions and complaint would be put up one after another as the interest and malice of her Adversaries should contrive them and therefore the safest way was ever found for the Church of Rome to stand upon her Justification against the clamors of the whole World and to put Princes in mind of their Obedience to the Church and the Obligation that lies upon them by force of Arms to subdue their contumacious Subject's and make them submit unto Rules and Disciplines of the Churches This was the sum of that smart Council which Cardinal Soderine gave unto Pope Adrian when the good old Man was much perplex'd with the Complaints and Demands of the German Princes and their People against the corruptions chiefly of the Court of Rome His Piety and Simpllcity and good Nature being not well vers'd in the Politics of Rome promted him to endeavor satisfaction and reform all such Abuses as might give just occasion of offence and grievance to their Adversaries About this great Work of Reforming he consults the Conclave and the necessity of the Times and the public Scandal of Abuses induc'd many of the Cardinals to advise a Reformation of many things which were in question But at last the subtle and experienc'd Cardinal Soderinus who had been vers'd in the Affairs of Christendom under three active Poâ—ds Alexander and Julius and Leo the 10 th turns the Scale of their Votes and absolutly disswades any appearance or attemt of a Reformation He rolls them That neâ—er any Pope with his Cardinals before thought that a coâ—â—enient way but rather by the Interest of Princes and the power of the Sword to suppress and extirpate unquiet and schismatical Spirits That no Pope cut off Heresies by a Reformation a Sed cruciatis quas vocant excitatis contra 〈◊〉 Princibus Populis Crucis simbolo in signitis but by the â—rucrats as they are call'd the Princes and People being stirr'd up against them wearing the badge of the Cross upon their Coat of Arms. Phil. I must confess Experience hath found this way the surest for so Pope Innocent the 3 d supprest the Albigenses in France and Charles the fifth the German Protestant Princes Theoph. But thro the Providence of God you find the Lutherans are yet alive in Germany and several Princes together with their Subjects reform'd themselves in spight of all opposition protesting against those Errors which the Church of Rome intends to justifie only by the Sword and by the Inquisition and the lower you draw your Observation the more success you will find God hath given unto many Kingdoms and People against the Tyranny and Innovations of Rome Phil. The Judgments of God are a great deep and you may not enter into his Secrets and judg of Truths by the Success Theoph. No my design only was to confute