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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18933	The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ...	Clare, John, 1577-1628.; Anderton, Lawrence, attributed name.; Anderton, Roger, d. 1640?, attributed name.	1630 (1630)	STC 5351; ESTC S122560	323,604	470

of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence

the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the Protestāt Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praē is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stear●e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it mat●reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinus●ath ●ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head ●or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now di●auo●● your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by d●shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shor● you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen ●eui●e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but

impudent assertion And first touching Dante 's He thus wryteth of S. Peter in his Italian verses O luce etern● del gran viro A cui nostro Signor lascio le chiaui Ch' ei portò giùda questo gaudio mir● In lyke sort touching Rome it selfe he thus discourseth Non pare indeg no al huomo d'intelletto Che ei su de l'alma Roma de suo impero Nel ' empirco ciel ' per padre eletto La quale el quale à voler direilvero Fur stabilite per lo loco sancto r ' fiede il successor del maggior Piero. In which verses Rome is called a reuerend Citty a holy place fortified and strenghtned euen from Heauen and finally the seate of Peter Againe Dante 's was much aduers against Pope Nicolas the third whom being dead Dante 's notwithstanding thus honored with his Verse Et se non fusse ch' aucor le me vieta I ariuerentia delle summe chiani Cheiutenesti vella vita lieta Iover ei parcle ancor più graut In which words Dante 's confesseth plainly that the reuerence which he did beare to this Pope in regard that he receaued the keyes of the Church meaning supreme authority in Christs Church was the cause why he did forbeare to wryte more sharply against hym Finally to omit many other lyke passages Dante 's saith that Boniface the eight Ne summo offitio ne Ordini sacri Guardò in se In which verse he acknowledeth that supreme authority and holy Orders did resyde in Boniface whose manners were otherwise displesing to Dante 's In this next place I will come to Petrarch who thus wryteth in acknowledging the power of the Bishop of Rome Quis quaeso non stupeat simulque non gaudeat si amicus sit Vicario IESV CHRISTI And further Romano Pontifici omnes qui Christiano nomine glortamur non modo consilium sed obs●quium insuper obedientiam debemus All we who glory in the name of Christians do owe not only counsell but duty and obedience to the Bishop of Rome Now for greater euidency of this poynt I will descend to the particular prayses geuen by Petrarch to particular Popes in his Italian booke written of the liues of Popes We there then find that of Pope Vrbanus 5. he thus writeth Fu nelle sacre Scripture dottissimo santamente visse Vrbanus was most learned in the holy Scriptures and liuod most Sanctly Of Clemens 6. he thus recordeth Fu per nome per fatti di molte virtù pieno Clement was both for his name and for his deeds replenished with much vertue Of Benedict 12. these are his words Beneditto fatto Papa reformò l'Ordine di S. Benedetto c. era feruido nella fide nelle buone operezelatore Benedict being created Pope did reforme the Order of S. Benedict c. He was feruerous in the fayth and zelous in good works c. To be short of Iohn 22. he thus saith Costuifu ottimo glorioso Pastore fece molti bein Hereticiper zelo della fide condamno This man was a very good and glorious Pastour He did many good deeds and condemned Hereticks out of his zeale to the fayth And now I ref●r to any in different iudgment whether these two Italian Poëtes Dante 's and Petrarch did thinke the Pope of Rome to be Antichrist or no as our Pamphleter semeth to vrge ●hey did and whether the former prayses can be truly applyed to Anthichrist the whoare of Babilon ●o euident it is that what the foresaide Poēts did Sa●yrically wryce was written only against some disorders in the Church of Rome and against the presumed faults of some particular Popes but neuer against their supreme dignity in the Church of Christ And as touching the former Popes by Petrarch so commended We are to remember that his prayses deliuered of them where written after the deaths of the said Popes and therefore his words could not be censured to proceede from adulation and flattery but according to his owne true and secret iudgment passed vpon those Popes In the same manner for their lyke inue●ghing against the fulnes of the Popes power and iurisdiction he alledgeth certaine obscure men to wit Dulemus Hayabalus Ioannes Biraensis Ioannes de Rupe scissa three religious Men who liued and dyed in respect of all other poynts in the Roman Church And yet touching Ioannes de Rupe scissa both this Authour and the authour of Catalogus testium veritatis From whom this man taketh it are deceaued if we may beleiue Fox who thus wrytes of hym Ioannes de Rupe scissa liued in the yere 1340. who for his rebuking of the spiritually for their great enormittes and neclecting their office was cast into prison Our Pamphleter after produceth Gerson for a Protestant of whom he thus saith Gerson saw in his ages many horrible abuses of the Church of Rome and in his wrytings spake liberally of it Is not this a learned prouf for Gersons being Protestant in all poynts of Protestancy After all the former ●nstances the Pamphleter euen for want of other matter returneth back againe to the Waldenses or Albigenses iterating with a tedious prolixity his former discou●s concerning them and this in many leaues Whereby he sheweth the extreme mendicity of his Cause and that he laboreth with all Art possible to draw out this his Treatise as is aboue said into some reasonable number of sheets But touching the Waldenses I refer the Reade● as afore I willed to the p●rticular passage of Waldo in the former Dialogue His former Extrauagancyes of discours being ended he is not ashamed to challenge S. Bernard for a Protestant of whom he thus wryteth Before our ascending thus high we might tell you of S. Bernard whom all though it is lykely at the first dash you will challenge as your owne yet when you haue well aduized of hym you may let hym go againe O perfrictam front●m and wonderfull Impudency For who is so ignorant or so bould that wil not confesse S. Bernard to haue bene a Roman Catholicke in all points He was a religious Man and Abbot of Claireuaux and Authour of many Monasteryes in Flanders and France as O siander the Protestant confesseth he also was Pryest and said Masse to his dying day as all Writers of him do testify A poynt so euident that for his being a great and eminent member of our Catholicke Church the Centurists al Protestants thus censure him Bernard●●s coluit Deum Maozim ad nouissimum vitae suae articulum And further they say of him Bernardus fuit acerrimus propugnator sedis Antichristi Bernard was an earnest defendour of the sea●e of Antichrist Here now I refer to the candid and vpright Reader what impudency it was in this Man to challenge Bernard for a member of the Protestant Church But heere touching S. Bernard I cannot but abserue

mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmēts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cu●ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refe●erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy