it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
Bishop off the paris hes there which when by common construction yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely or vnto the reste off Egypte onely or to bothe together yt was to greate boldnes not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius but also to bringe him in so speaking But that the worde there can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before and after For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian and Cornelius liued had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin then by all reasonable vnderstanding yt muste be estemed that this worde there owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria Abilius the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no mētion He saith the same off Primus succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria the same off Iustus which succeded Primus the same of Eumenes which succeded him the same off an other Marke which succeded him the same of Celadion which succeded him the same off Agrippa whō also he calleth Agripinus which succeded him And where speaking off all the former he saide they vvere bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria off Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith he gouerned the churches in or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed yea off those which succeded Demetrius as famous and as renoumed as he there is no suche thinge For off receiued the ministerie vvhich vvas at Alexandria likewise of Dionisius which succeded Heracles that he receiued the gouernement of the churches vvhich vvere at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian and Cornelius which we haue presently in hande When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince but are conteined within the circuit off one citie vntill the time off Cyprian and Cornelius yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius but that this owght to be an other marke to know that nether Cyprian nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all further then the cyties wherin their churches were And withall appeareth the cawse why Euseb did no more particularly restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick The next diu hath nothing worth answer being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto Sauing this that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop which maketh nether whot nor kolde vnto this question seing that Pupianus was no bishop but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche But of answer to my argument that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian for that his deede vvas like as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop or iudge of iudge there is no newes wheras if yt were not a proude thinge to be bishop of a bishop c. Cypr. did with no good aduise set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop which the Ans afraied to affirme would haue his reader thinck but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places in that he denieth that he pressed him vvith further autoritie then that vvhich all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels That Cyprian did not obiecte this to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop as a prowde name but as a prowde deede is a poore exception for if yt were a prowde deede to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop yt muste be also a proude name to be called the bishop off a bishop The Answ wordes carie no meaning with them to cōclude that which this cawse requireth For what meaneth this one bishop off a Prouince had no autoritie ouer another but were equall what is this to my reason which is that forsomuche as the godly vvriters proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome vvith other bishops for that they called one another fellovves and brethren the bishops off dioceses and metropolitanes calling one an other fellovv bishop fellovv in office brother c doo therby declare that there vvas none vvhich ruled ouer an other For onles the reason be firme in the one yt is not good in the other But he answereth further Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops and brethren declared therby the function to be all one So may the Papistes answer that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes and brethren becawse they had the same function and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him But as that so this is an absurd answer The Godly writers vse not this reason to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes with the bishop of Rome which the Pope him self confesseth but to proue that they were not vnder but off the same autoritie with him which he denieth The next answer Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit is I doubt not althowgh I can not presently note the place another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason As if true humilitie did hinder any to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche or commen wealth doth put vpon him He further answereth that S. Peter calling the Bishops and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders was notwithstanding higher in degree then they I graunt but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie yt is not ment so much for honour as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges which notwithstanding had no dominion Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those with whom they carie the same yoke and degree off ministrie To that owt off Cyprian none of thē toke him self bishop off bishops he answereth he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop which how absurdly it is spoken may appeare by that a before spoken off the Africane Councell His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie for that thes wordes were
consulship not in all pointes but onely in this that he should propound the matters c. as before Which appeareth in an other place and euen in this verie place when he saith yt is meete that althovvghe they be all off equall povver yet there should be one as yt vvere moderator And therfore if yow woulde haue made yowr archbishops according to Caluins measure he owght to haue no more preheminence before the simplest pastor then the Consull which spake had before his fellow Consull which helde his peace Wher he saith the prolocutor chosen for the inferior sort of clergie yet the Archbishop reteineth still his office yt shewethe that he is now but an idoll hauing put ouer the duty to other for which he is supposed to haue bene so necessarie But yt is manifest that the Prolocutor in the synode hathe all that preheminence which Peter had aboue the other Apostels and therfore which one pastor owght to haue aboue an other which is that I browght yt for The next I answere not Where I shew his vaine argument that one bishop shoulde be aboue an other because Paule an APostle was aboue Timothe an Euangelist he saith that yt houldethe because they differ not in the administring off the the worde and sacramentes but in gouernement Which is vntrew for they differed in both alike For as they differed from the Apostles in that they gouerned those onely churches ouer which they were set where the Apostles gouernement stretched vnto all churches so they could not administer the worde and sacramentes but where they were appointed where the Apostles might do yt in all places But for further confutation off this distinction I referre me to that before Where I shew his argument all one with this my Lord maior is aboue the Sherifes therfore one sherife is aboue an other he saith I should haue concluded that because my Lord Maior hath rule ouer the cytisens therfore the Apostels superioritie ouer an inferior degree off ministerie proueth that one in the same degre of ministerie may rule ouer an other Which is to ridiculous For if it were as it is not a good argument from ciuill gouernement vnto ecclesiasticall yet to saie that therfore one ecclesiasticall officer may beare rule ouer an other yea that one may beare rule ouer his fellowes off the same order becawse the magistrate beareth rule ouer priuate men cleaneth togither as goates dounge So that if there were any argument here yt ys that as my Lord maior ruleth ouer the cytisens so yt behouethe the pastor to rule ouer his flocke The next diuisiō is answered Wher he calledged Calu. that vppon that Paul willed Titus to appoint Elders saithe Titus was in autoritie and counsell aboue other Pastors and I opposed Calu. which sheweth that he did nothing in that behalfe vvithovvt the aduise off other pastors and consent off the churches he askethe whotly still for answere As if it were not answered especially when I shewed before that the superioritie that ministers can haue in suche meetinges is onely to propounde c. as is before declared Which Calu. do the expresly set forthe in the same place when he saith S. Paule commaunded him onely to be president or moderator in the election The two first sections how shamefullie they be said I leaue to the readers iudgement in the last against that I alledged owt off the Scoliaste that Paule would not haue one rule the whole I le and therfore not Titus is browght first an exposition gone abowte to be confirmed off him and Chrysostome which say that Paule committed vnto Titus Crete and to Timothie almoste all Asia As yf that might not well stand with that that Titus gouerned one citie alone for in that they had autoritie giuen them to appoint ministers in forme aforesaid in all that circuite vntill the churche there were fully established and a lawfull ministerie throwghly planted ▪ there charge in that respecte extended yt selfe to that whole circuite But when the countrey was deuided into seuerall churches and euery churche had a lawfull and complete ministery he charge before generall is now restrained vnto that one churche where Titus made his abode Euen as euerie off the 12. Princes and Aaron which deuided the land off Canaan had before partition a certein power off all which after lottes cast had onely to do with that which apperteined to them in seuerall A thowgh yf yt be graunted that Titus and Timothe continued that large gouernement during their abode there wherin I will not striue yet considering as hathe bene shewed they were Euangelistes and no Bishops nor Archbishops there can nothing grow to them hereby For as no man can haue gouernement ouer all the churches which the Apostels had but they that haue that speciall office so none can succede into the iurisdiction off Euangelistes but they onely which haue that extraordinarie ministerie And therfore Caluin in the place before cited off the D. saith there vvas not then suche equalitie c. but that one did rule ouer an other noting by the word then which the D. hathe vnfaithfully left owt that the gouernemēt which Titus had in Creta was for those times when ther were suche extraordinarie callinges Wher he saith in streightening Titus to one church I make him pastor which I donie let him learne that to haue charge in one church alone not a pastor vnles he be so tied that he can not departe withowt the churche lose his bonde Which neither Titus was nor is by any word affirmed off me Whether the rest be shamels accusations let the reader iudge The next althowghe vnworthy of answer being but bare affirmacions against my reasons is answered before As for that those wordes receiue no accusations c. must needes be vnderstanded of one which hathe other elders vnderneathe him and therfore not off euerie pastor yt argueth that the D. is spent For he knowethe that we hould that euery pastor had his elders assistan which hath and shall God willing appeare Besides that it argueth his ignorance off the state of the elder churches wher as hathe bene shewed bishops sat in iudgement off other bishops ād elders not vnderneath them That ther be not a hundreth seuerall preceptes in the three epistles to Timothe and Titus wheras in diuers verses there be sixe or seuen doth well become his bouldnes Against reason alledged owt off Augustine that the place owt off Epiphanius was of some false Epiphanius here is nothing but autoritie Howbeit not to striue for this before I come to answere yt is to be noted that this is Pigghius reason against the churche off God euen in the verie selfe same cause which we haue now in hād towching this sort of bishops For against the Waldenses firste and after against Wickleue which put no difference betwene a bishop and a priest Pigghius hath a treatise in his Hierarche wherin he pressethe them with
vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ„ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â— plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌ„gerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â— cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritâ—â— off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ— is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
constrained by corruption off tymes maie departe from the Apostolicall election shuttinge owt the people but I denie that that is warranted by substantial argumentes Beside I haue shewed that heere in wordes against vs in his reasons he stādeth for vs Which shall beste be vnsterstanded in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole hath mangled them and snatched here and there a worde if peraduenture vntwisted he might deale with them which otherwise he coulde not breake For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage vnto the church to haue their minister thruste vppon yt vvithovvt choise off the people he answereth that subiection to magistrates is no bondage wherin he toucheth nether heauen nor earth For he should haue answered as vnto Musculus and not as vnto me considering that I alledged that owt off him off vvhome he hath taken all his reasons And therfore the note off Anabaptisme which he markethe all those vvith that saie yt is bondage vnto the churche to haue their pastor thrust vppon them lighteth vppon Musculus vvhich thus speaketh and affirmeth yt constantly Then his answer is abegging off that in question when he saith that subiection in lawfull matters is no bondage yt being in question vvhether yt be lawfull for the magistrate to take awaie the election from the church To that also owt of Musculus that the minister chosen by the church maie rule vvith a good cōscience and the people obey vnto him easelier then vvhen he cometh in againste their will and thervppon concluded that forasmuche as that manner of election is to be followed vvhich maketh moste to assure the mynisters cōscience of his calling and that the people should be more obedient vnto his doctrine therfore that onely vvas to be holden his answer is that he maie be assured otherwise and that the people otherwise will obey which if yt were true as yt is not is not sufficient for that he is not so easelie assured nor they so easely obey And vvhere as he saith that he which is assured off an inward calling need not to doubte of his owtward yow should vnderstand that the assurāce of the inward calling depēdeth a great parte of the owtward for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgemēt of the elders ād off the church touching his aptnes for the ministrie whileste he considereth that that calling is not the calling off men but off God throwgh the ministerie of men Nether is there any one excepe those vvhich are called extraordinaryly vvhich can haue assurance off any inward calling but by the means off owtwarde For if he were assured that God had called him without the calling off men he owght to obey his voice althowgh men would not call him So that this not distinction but seperation off the knowledge off an inward calling from the owtward is not onely absurde but confirmeth the Anabaptistes which boste off an inward calling where no calling off the church wente before That he addeth yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called is but a begging off the question For it being in question whether euery calling that any church vseth be lawfull and seing the minister can not be assured off his owtward calling oneles yt be lawfull it followeth that he vvhich presumeth one must needes presume the other Vppon Musculus saying that the thrustinge off the minister vppon the church vvithout her election dravveth bondage c. and the D affirming that suche elections are meet for the church vnder the christian Magistrate I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Christian Magistrate giuen off God not onely to preserue but to encrease the churches libertie To all vvhich firste the D. answereth that he giueth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth vnto him and that yt is the magistrates right to vse that kinde of appoincting off ministers which he thincketh good which is a grosse begging off that in controuersie Secondly he saith that the pastors had neuer better cause to obey their pastors neuer les cause to complaine off bondage and cōstraint then nowe when the pastors are chosen without the consente off the churches which as it is barely saied hath no reason to leane vppon is confuted by common sense so it is directly contrarie to that Musculus his author affirmeth in the wordes before alledged Onely for the matter off libertie he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church consisteth in libertie of cōscience and freedome from false doctrine wherunto I answer that it consisteth in them but not onely for to vse assemblies for the ministring of the worde and Sacramētes c. is a libertie of the church And they are not myne but Musc wordes which calleth the election by the church a libertie and the other a bondage of the church I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the lawes and goūernment off the Christian magistrate but contrariwise giue that vertue to his godly gouernment that the estate off religion maie be easelie pure with him vvhich can be hardly or not without great daunger pure without him Yow if not in wordes yet in deede make the gouernment off the christian magistrate alwaies fraught with dronkardes Idolaters whoremōgers Atheistes c. which was not so before he entred which is nothing els then to make him Lorde of misrule and in steed of a noursing father a fosterer of synne which is the iniurie I complaine off Where yow saie that it is commendation vnto the magistrate to correcte such disordered persons yow saie well but smally to the pourpose smally to your aduantage For if the church hath by benefite of the Christian magistrat besides her owne censures his helpe off ciuill punishmentes for repressing synne she hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked thē be fore maie be more easely discharged of those vnprofitable burdens I haue not therfore trāsferred the faultes off men vnto the gouernement but yow haue laied to my charge that which your felfe faulte in and I before confuted The forme off election in the Apostles tyme is not chaunged by the magistrates confirmacion For beside that that is properly no parte off the election but a thing vvhich followeth yt this right off confirmacion of elections was in the Apostles times And althoughe the practise was not generall yet there being euen in in their times some Christian magistrates as appeareth by that which hath bene spoken there can be small doubte but this forme off election had in certeine places euen during the Apostles times his approbation If it had not yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby then the forme of preaching and administring the Sacramentes when the magistrate did not allowe of them differeth from that which is nowe when he mainteineth them so appeareth that the magistrates cōfirmatiō standeth without breache of the Apostical forme of electiō which he denieth Thes
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church ād placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often cōmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte whē their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositiō is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
off this then falleth he from his conning distinction off hauing it ambitiously and by election For considering that Bernarde saith he is forbidden it and speaketh not there against the abuse but against the vse off dominion in a bishop it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop in that he is a bishop nor can be receiued off him being offred off the cyuill Magistrate The reader therfore may see that the exposition yow follow off this place doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer ād openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie yow could gaine nothing Not onely Caluin Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth but Bulling Zuing. Gualter with a a nomber of others doo expound it as I haue doon and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth And euen the very same word Maioritie which yow say in the margent off the text is proued by these places Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same As for yow albeit yow pretend Musculus c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make are taken properly owt of Pigghius which hath all those corners reasons and shiftes almost word for word as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no yow haue mustered them by fyrst second third I will also answer them seuerally And to the first I answer that although our Saui. Christ saied not no man owght to be great amongest yow yet he saied as muche for when he saith the greatest shal be as the least he that is first as seruant to all he fetching downe the greatest to the least and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other This reason I hauing answered before was vnneedfull to be here repeated so remaineth for him to proue that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles one ouer an other then he would haue saied no man owght to be great amongest yow and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this The second concludeth that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians nothing to this question For no man denieth but there owght to be superiours As for that he interlaceth off Peter◠cheifty it is answered afterward The similitudes he vseth can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other For as for heauenly bodies althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other Therfore if it proue any thing it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons doth not lift them vp in autoritie and commaundement one ouer an other but onely maketh a differēce in order ād comelines Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery where we willingly receiue order opposed to confusion refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection For the heauenly spirites what will yow alledge to proue that they haue domynion one ouer an other The place of the Ephesians thrones domynions principalities povvres if yow doo it is boldier then Augustine durst doo But if they be superiour one to an other that superioritie is answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people If they be seuered in orders one from an other that is not denied to be in officers off the church If they exercise domynion one ouer an other that is expressed in commen wealthes So that if the Answ were able to proue all these which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames yet he may see they conclude not a domynion off one minister ouer an other The third reason likewise concludeth not against this cawse and to thes two reasons I answered at large Which if the Ans would haue taken away he owght to haue shewed that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church onles one minister be superior to another but that he passeth slily by and picketh a quarell vnto the examples To his exception against the first example that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes I answer there is none but by the maisters expresse appointement And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other beside that it is enough to mainteine mine answer off equalitie off seruantes in a familie that it is so for the most part ād whē my meaning was of seruātes left in one and the same order yt is owt off time to alledge this exāple Secōdly the inequalitie there made is not of one steward ouer an other but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto and therfore this similitude maketh to shew that one minister is not ruler ouer an other but euery minister ruler off his flock Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church but by commaundment off God but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion or lordly pomp which the Answ would bring in which Musc a great man with the D. declareth when he saieth He speaketh after the commen faschion for this vvas the office of the principall seruant to gyue euery man his diet he vvas not appointed to be lord off others As for his exception against my other example of equalitie off brethren the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother and the rest is nothing les then any rule or autoritie to commaund them but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes wheroff the younger brethren had but one is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie wherof onely we speake wherin also we will not deny but one minister according to his charge off children may haue greater portion then other And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche as against the godly writers off our tyme Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops haue alledged that they called one an other brethren that they vvere fellovv seruantes Dominion here forbidden saith the Ans is not of one minister ouer an other but ouer the people wherin he is greatly deceiued For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith vvhosoeuer shall be great amongest yovv shall be yovvr minister and vvhosoeuer amongest yovv shall be fyrst shall be yovvr
stand withowt him is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops and those called by the commen name of bishops are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme although the name were not is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes to pull in their vnwrittē verities owght to serue the reader for a watch word that tharbishops office needing this phisick is sick off the same disease And for the word it self although it be lawful ād very conuenient and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it yet yt is not necessarie as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ can not be mainteined For to say so were to accuse the holy writers S. Iohn especially which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time Cerinthus Ebion c. did neuer vse it But what is this vnto the Archbishop let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God and then this example may help yow And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme Yet wordes off the same weight were If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop although yow shew not this yt shall be sufficiēt if yow can not then this example maketh against yow Here also is further to be obserued that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time although the name was not is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop that although the name of vniuersall bishop was not at the first gyuen to the Pope yet the autoritie was After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops ether they must haue had autoritie then or neuer after So keeping yowr similitude if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended and in S. Paules time ether they must haue had their autoritie then or neuer after And the case is nothing like for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times they being needfull for preseruation off the churches the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power to ordein Christian Princes But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops if they had bene needfull and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them seruing so greatly to the building off the church as we are borne in hand Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times persones places wheras by his owne confession the Archbisop is temporall and arbitrarie Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places so that it may florish withowt thes But the Archbishoprick seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function ether must be planted by one off thes places or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function which is not here set forth Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together for how cleaue thes Some offices instituted off God endured for a time therfore men may deuise new offices Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time therfore man may or in this that God did abrogate certein offices therfore man may institute Which soeuer yow say as yow must needes say one the absurditie is apparant for in both the comparison is made between the autoritie off God and thautoritie off man Betwene whom how great distance there is so great difference is there between yowr argument and a iust conclusion The cleane contrarie is gathered rather For as we reason against the Papistes that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies he would haue taken off his owne so yt may be saied that God did not cut off his owne ministeries to make place for others and that if moe ministeries off preaching and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie beside Doctors and Pastors he would rather haue kept his owne then takē those vvhich men deuise Here all shiftes and coulors failing him and not being once able to lift at this reason he hath chaunged my argument For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme he hath altered yt But I will offer yt him againe yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor tharchbishop be comprehended then he is necessarie and commaunded by the vvord off God but yow say he is comprehended therfore he is commaunded and necessarie Which if it be true then yow are fallen from yowr distinction of thinges necessarie to saluacion and not necessarie off thinges arbitrarie and commaunded by the word off god But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion and as yow thowght yow could weld yt how yow deale with yt Yow say first this proposition Pastors are necessarie at all times is particular verily the masters by whom this should be iudged neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter is particular But because yow like not the forme which I vsed yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie the Archbishop as yow say is one off S. Paules Pastors therfore he is necessarie Here if yow denie the first proposition yow haue the whole councell and Senate almost of learned men against yow affirming that those two Pastor ād Doctor are amōgest the rest perpetuall offices And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor which S Paul speaketh of then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish or not to establish him yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ which if it be absurd that also must be wheroff this followeth Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor then goeth to the grownd his cōmen refuge that his office may be instituted
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
peoples consent owght to be in the election off their Pastor Not vnlike to this is that wherby vpon a rule brought and applied as well by other learned men as by me to the Ecclesiasticall election he would insinuate that I meant yt should be translated to the ciuill estate Where appeareth that there is no sparke off equitie in him For if the rule were giuen generally then my applying of it onely to Ecclesiasticall elections doth rather call yt from being vnderstanded off the ciuil if it be giuen of it alone then it is clere that I vsed it accordingly Beside that I haue shewed that it is far otherwise in the ciuill then in the Ecclesiasticall gouernement and that thinges vnlawful in one are notwithstanding lawful in the other But thus must I restore that I neuer toke and be accused off thinges vvhich I not onely neuer did but not so muche as knovv off Here also falseth an other accusation of flatterie off the people with iniurie to the magistrate Where him selfe gyueth me at least this testimonie that I haue bene euil scholed in that craft which haue chosen masters that can do so litle for me Yf the state off our commen wealth had bene suche as wherin the people had born the sway his accusation vntrw should yet haue had some colour off trwth An other accusation is off wrong in not setting downe his boke as one looth it should be compared and for fear my corrupt dealing should appear But this accusation lieth against the most part of learned men which hauing confuted aduersaries off the trwth haue not onely not set downe there bokes but not giuen their readers so particular addres for conference as I did Here therfore ether let him absolue me or condemn me with them That I did yt not in suche respect as he saith I haue protested the truth wheroff shall now appear And withall that notwithstanding his setting downe let the reader iudge whither he vseth as he saith off me friuolous replies childish collections fraudulent deprauing off my boke Beside that he hath passed by diuers reasons off mine vntowched yea and as shal God willing hereafter appeare guilfully left out of his own boke in one or two places And because I am entred into his dealing hauing bene tied now full two yeares to turn this stone of his writinges it wil not be amis to admonish of some of his practises wherby the reader may the better know how to turn himself in them ether present or to come if he kepe on the some course In the reste therfore off his boke beside reproches furmises c one part is spent in naked affirmacions withowt proof vented often by questions etherfond or from the purpose and in dry testimonies off men both which are as other his furniture repeated and that sometimes again and again That where the Cuckow trobleth but once a year he with his vntunable repetitions off one thing to the same purpose trobleth all the year long Yet hath he euery hand while to be short In his testimonies beside that yt shall appeare that so many as make to the cause they are almost euery one ether falsified or drawen from the meaning of the autors yt is first to be obserued that to answer the places off scripture alledged yt is verie like that he first turneth to Maister Caluin if he be against him he goeth to aske fauour at other if no body answer nothing yet he bringeth sondry times euen that nothing that is to say which maketh not for him sometime also against him Secondly where in his former boke he propoundeth certein thinges as his own not able to maintein them in this he callethe for the autors assistance of whom he hath not so muche borowed them as taken them against their willes yet he counteth yt vaine glorie to take owt off an autor and to conceale his name Notwithstanding if he had knowen from whom his collections came which he vseth and had bene thankfull to his autors in that sort he saith we owght we should often haue had in the margent for Augustin Ambrose Chrysostome c. Pigghius Hosius Harding c. To let pas diuerse reasons I gaue him which he neuer thaÌ„ked me for but hideth them as well as he can by taking them vp before hand or he came to the place where I giue them Thirdly where his autoritie is nameles and goethe vnder this generall title other learned men thinck otherwise a learned man saith so haue yt for suspected off popery For that in some off those places he can haue no other autors but Papistes as I am persuaded Last off all that he doth often bately recite them vvithowt applying them to his matter or gathering his argument off them The cause vvheroff is for that they are not hable to beare any argument the vanity wherof vvould not forthewith appeare if it vvere gathered Which is manifest for as muche as vvhere any colour off argument dothe but peep there he presseth them diligently vvhich practise he vseth in his other proofes albeit he precisely reprehendeth it in the autors off the Admonition Touching the other part of that which remaineth in his boke standing ether of his reasons against our cause or answeres off the reasons against his â—in bothe yow may obserue that the prouing off that in question by that which is likewise dowbted of occupieth a great roume In his answers to mine he will often acknowledge no argument Because yt is not set down in the precise ether order off propositions or other exact form of Sillogism Which I thinck is a streighter law then any writer hetherto hath bene bound vnto yet I will not refuse it if he vvil giue me an example the matter hauing now bene so largely debated to the vnderstanding of the simpler sort Let him therfore if he dare trust his cause deal that way an other vvhile As for diuers particular faultes in his lodgick and grammer throwgh euill translation considering that they bring no preiudice to the truth in question and hurting not the vnlearneder are quickly espied off the other I am well content to hould back Thus muche to the Answerers both generall and particular accusations and surmises in suche sort aâ— I meane God willing neuer vpon any his importunity to returne vnto againe For as for that page 21. line 3. and suche other as haue manifest confutation in the places owt off vvhich they are raised they are most vnworthy the naming Hauing spoken thus muche for their causes especially which misinformed by the D. haue no good opinion of the discipline now propounded yt remaineth to say something for theirs vvhiche acknowledging yt for the trwth off God doe not stretch forth their handes to bring yt in or at the least not with that endeuour which owght to be Wherin yt seemeth they doe not so fully consider that before alledged of the vse of the discipline the same in the churche that the
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
and yet not slaine and not what are the meanes which the lorde hathe appointed for a whole and wholesome constitution off the bodie of the churche And iff excommunication or the one forme off gouernement were not necessarie for the churche because the churche which wanteth them maie be the churche by the same reason a man maie saye that the holie sacrament of the supper of the lord is not necessarie for the churche seing that in that companie where the worde of god is onelie preached and receiued there is the churche off god And hereof also the practise is to be sene in some places where the magistrate according to the churches the preaching off the word off god for certeine occasisions will not accorde the ministring off the supper Last off all M. Beza shewing the true markes of the churche addeth to the two former the discipline framed accordinge to the word con 5. 7. so that whatsoeuer necessitie commeth vnto the worde and Sacraments in that they are notes the same commeth also to the discipline by M. Bezaes Iudgement Where he quarrelleth with me as thowghe I had concluded off particulars onelie beside that he owght to know that man maie conclude a particular either affirmatiuely or negatiuely in any figure not onelie off particulars but off singulars he must vnderstand that a particular instance ouerthroweth him which opposeth matter of ceremonies and gouernemēt vnto matters off faithe and saluation generally and withowt exception His accusation against me for callinge the holie Sacramentes ceremonies considering that kind off speache is receiued amongest the diuines and I had no further occasion to speake off them then to shew they were ceremonies is vtterlie vnworthie any answere To the third Diuision pag. 81. The Answerer broileth thinges togither off the infinite mercie off god and of repentance in a moment of his vnsearchable iudgementes hauing neither heade nor fote in his talke And althowghe he would seme to saie somewhat against me yet in deede he confirmeth that which I haue set downe For when he saithe that the doctrine of free will being damnable of it selffe dothe not preiudice the mercie off god iff he meane that the merrie off God embraceth him that being infected with that error dothe by no especiall repentaunce call it backe as that which is vnknowen vnto him then he fullie agreethe with me Iff he meane that vppon speciall repentance and chaunge off minde in that pointe he obteine mercie he speaketh truelie but to no purpose off that matter whiche we haue in hande Therfore to bringe some light vnto those thinges which the A. withe his disorder darkeneth it is to be vnderstanded that first off all euerie transgression off the law be it neuer so litle off it selffe and in the owne nature is dānable Secondlie it is to be obserued that no synne vnto those whiche are throwghe faithe grafted into the bodie of Christ can bringe damnation as also withowt faithe I speake off those whiche haue vnderstanding there is none which bringeth not certaine deathe the mercie off god althoughe neuer so infinite being shut vp against all vnbeleuers Which I therfore add because the D. speaketh so confusedlie off the infinitenes off Gods mercie In the third place it must be seene what faultes vtterlie destroye the faith which is in Christ For it is cleere that those that doo not pull vp the rootes and rase the foundations of faithe can by no meanes shut the kingdome of heauen against those which are infected with them althowg he they do neuer come to the knowledge off them Wherin I thinke that no man off any Iudgement will denie that errors not in the hearers onelie but also in the teachers maye be suche as do not destroye the foundation And this thing maie be easelie shewed by diuerse places off scripture where this distinction off errors which destroie the foundations and which do not which hold the heade and which do not which are deadly and which are not may be easely gathered It remaineth onelie to see whether the erorr off fre will be amongest them whiche do not rase the foundations as I haue alledged or no. And when as one which mainteineth fre will maie holde the fre remission off sinnes in the grace off god and likewise holde that that grace is shewed vnto him for Christes sake these being the growndes off our saluation it must needes folowe that fre will dothe not rase the foundations For there is no necessitie that he who saithe that the spirite off God by the new birthe hathe giuen him power to die to synne and to liue vnto righteousnes should also affirme that it is giuen him off merite In the opinion that S. Peter had of his owne strenght and habilitie to die for Christ entangled as it may seeme with ignorance off this pointe off Religion touching the bondage off mans will he ceased not therfore to haue a true and iustifyinge faith in the sonne off God wherunto our sauiour Christ himselfe had giuen testimonie And if their were not sufficient holde in this example off Peter against the A yet in the greke doctors and some also off the latin as in Ierome especially which did not by one acte or two as Peter but by argumentes and open sayinges declare there liking of fre will this is manifest for dare the. A. saie of all thē that they beleued not the fre remission off syn̄es For Iesus Christes sake or helde not the foundation of religion all that time that they taught in the churche of god ād helde that opinion And if he graunt that they had faithe then I conclude that euen then when they helde fre will they helde the foundations which is not so in the example off beleuinge that the masse is a sacrifice for the quicke and the deade whiche he vnskilfullie comparethe withe this error off free will consideringe that that ouer throweth and turnethe vppside downe the materiall cause off our saluation which is the sacrifice off the sonne off god that he once for euer in his owne person offred for the sinnes off the worlde And therfore that error can not be in any in whom there is faithe I brought three reasons off comparison to proue that the worde off god is a rule to square out whatsoeuer thinge is to be doone in the orderinge off the church and the A. in callinge them bare wordes hathe made a quicke dispatche off them sauinge that his marginall note dothe kepe the wonte off vntrue surmisinge which vpon that I compare the gouernement with chaines and bracelets saithe that I account yt more pretiouse then the doctrine As iff the apparell which clothethe the nakednes were not alwayes more necessarie ād sometime also more preciouse then those iewels And if I had not this defence yet if I had fallen vppon an aduersary which had not bene disposed to trifle the lawe off comparisons which exacteth not likelihood in all thinges but onely in that where in
are bound in the lawe of nature to punishe a murtherer by death Christian common wealthes haue two newe bondes whereby they are tied to a more streighter obseruation of this seueritie Last of al as this iudiciall lawe was giuen of God long before Moses so not to be in the nomber off lawes corrected by the comming of our Sa. Christ yt is manifest by his owne wordes whereby he confirmed this lawe of God saying that vvhosoeuer tooke vpp the svvord should perishe vvith the svvord And there is no doubt but if he had had like occasion to speake of other ciuil punishement by death established in the lawe as he had of this he would haue brought the same confirmation of them that he did off this The exceptions against this doctrine are off no valwe For if this be the truth of God there can be no prerogatiue against yt onles he can shewe some higher court then heauen and some cheif iustice aboue the Lord yt is not denied but the punishementes by death wherewith men haue established lawes which them selues haue for their better commoditie deuised may be ether mitigated or taken away by those to whom it apperteined nether is the magistrate by any thing I haue set downe bound to mitigate the punishement of theeues for their punishement may growe by the circumstance of place as in Scithia where all thinges lying opeÌ„ to the spoile had neede to belocked vp by a streighter punishemeÌ„t and some times by the disposition of the people lighter handed then others as if one had to doo with the LacedemonieÌ„s or some other nation in whom that sinne had taken deeper roote And I will not denie â–ª but euen these crimes of murther and adulterie may varie by diuers circumstances and therefore yt is in the discretioÌ„ of the magistrate according to the quantitie of the fault to appoint the maner of death sharper or softer But that there is any place time or other circumstance which can lessen these crimes that they should not be worthie of death vpon the reasons before alledged I vtterly denie As for the casting away of the studie and large volumes of the lawe which he imagineth to followe of this assertion he deceiueth hym selfe For euen when these lawes were fully in force the Iudges thereoff by reason of their shortnes comprehending many thinges not expressed had matter enoughe to occupie the greatest diligence memorie and sharpnes of vvit that could fall into any And if he aske our lawiers vppon vvhat groundes the greatest part off their houge volumes as he calleth them stand they will answer him they partly stand vppon the plaine vvordes off the lawe off Moses and partly off reason vncorrupt which is the equitie off the lawe vrged off vs And therfore althoughe our lawes be some time in forme diuerse from the lawes off Moses yet they vvill neuer graunt him which he hath not so aduisely set downe that our healthsome lawes be contrarie to Moses lawes For both being Good one off them can not be contrarie to the other where he saith that we of the clergie should be the best iudges by this meanes c. it is to open iniurie to charge vs with that vvhich vve openly renounce and condemne in him vvhich is that in medling in ciuill affaires they put their sickle in an other mans haruest Notwitstanding if in establishing of lawes for the Godly and peaceable gouernement off the common welth there may be no assistance of the ministerie wherby the lawes should be the better coÌ„passed to the equitie prescribed in the word of God and to take heede that nothing be doon against it there is no iust cawse to vphold the Bishops presence in the Parlament howse Where he saith that the lawes which our sa Christe made Mat. 5. 19 â–ª towching diuorcement for adulterie had been to no pourpose if the adulterer should off necessitie be put to death first he may be here iustly charged with that he hath vntruly surmised off me because he bringeth in our sa Christe a maker off lawes vnder the gospell whereas he made none in those places but expounded the lawe of God vvhich he had made from the beginning The other refusals made by the Iewes off their wiues were neuer any lawes but permissions onely and therefore in there abolishement there was no lawe of God abrogated Secondly yt was necessarie to vse that exposition notwithstanding that the punishement of the lawe by death remained For beside that the Iewes being vnder the gouernement off the Romanes had those ciuill punishements by death suspended vpon the pleasure off their officers which were often corrupted our sa Christe forseing all thinges did forsee what loosenes would followe in this behalfe And therfore as the office off a Good Doctor required he instructed the conscience and taught that albeit the Magistrate failed in the execution of the lawe yet that the former yoke being broken men were at their libertie to enter into a newe contract of mariadge with other Whereby he met with the corrupt opinion off those which dreame that the knot of mariadge is not cut a sunder by adulterie duriÌ„g the life of the parties maried Of the autorities which are brought to proue that the punishements by death off the lawe off God are taken away there is not one onely but Cyrill which maketh agaynst this cause yea which doth not ether in part or alltogether ouerturne his assertion And as for Cyrill I can at no hand allowe the reason shall appeeare where the clawes of this sentence are more plainly seen Augustine in the place cited vnto Pollentius hath nothing for the Doctor For he setteth him selfe to proue vppon the place off S. Iohn that the howsband ought to forgiue his wife seing our sa Christe forgaue the adulteresse Wherin not to enter into question whether that be well reasoned of Augustine or no and to passe by the aduantage which Erasmus autoritie may giue which calleth that sentence off August a hard sentence I answer that yt is one thing to say a priuate man should forgiue his iuiuries and nother thing to say that the Magistrate is not bound to take aduengement of them A priuate man may with commendation forgyue the trespace agaynst him selfe where the magistrate shal be in great fault if he poursew not yt And iff that place of August perteine vnto the Magistrate and our Sa. Christes example proue that the Magistrate neede not punishe adultery by death yt proueth as well that he neede not punishe adulterie at all For bothe our Sa. Christe forgaue her fâ—ely and gaue no sentence of any ciuill punishement against â—â—r and Augu will haue the howsband freely forgiue his adulterous wife Nay the place off Augustine maketh against him for â—n that he exhorteth the howsbaÌ„d to spare the bloud or life of his wife yt appeareth that in the church of God in his times this crime of adulterie was punished by death Musculus albeit
his maner off speache in saying that all Moses is abrogated be hard yet I would first aske hym what aduantage he can take here for the abrogation off the Iudiciall which is not the same against the Morall Then let it be obserued howe far against the meaning of the autor the Ans hath wrong this sentence and howe he is but a snatcher at sillabels and a tearer of lerned mennes wordes from their meaning The meaning off Musculus was that these lawes abrogated as they were giuē by Moses remaine notwithstāding as they cōteined a perpetual equitie For in the same title off lawes he writeth thus There are saith he vvhich thinck that Christe did abrogate the punishement prescribed by the lavve against adulterers vvhen he saide nether doo I condemne the goo and sinne no more These be gaie fellovves they thinke not of this that our Sa. Christe came into the vvorld not to iudge or punishe but to saue sinners and yet in the meane season not to take avvay the punishementes of the lavve gyuen of God his father by Moses VVhereupon he sayde not symply I condemne the not or thovv oughtest not to be condemned off any c. And so sheweth howe if she had bene condemned according to the sentence off the lawe that the Lord would not haue saide against yt The like trust he hath vsed in alledging off M. Caluin Which albeit he saie that there be certen Iudicialls to the precise obseruation whereoff the magistrate is not bound which I did likewise set downe yet that he esteemed certen Iudicialls vnchangeable and those especially which I haue alledged it may appeare in that he calleth it the Popishe diuinitie that the sentence off our Sau. Christe in the eight off Iohn brought any grace to adulterers as towching the ciuill punishemēt And in an other place he saithe that yt is the common right or lavve of all natiōs that adulterers should be put to death which he affirmmeh also of murtherers in the place set downe by the D. and that yt is a sortishe imitation off our Sauiour and proceding from a grosse ignorance Vnder colour off the place in S. Iohn s. to release the punishement of adulterers prescribed in the lawe And in an other place speaking off the false Prophet which tourning away the people from God is commanded to be put to death he saithe that lavve is euerlasting apperteining as well vnto vs nowe as vnto the Iewes in times past and pincheth them which say otherwise As for M. Beza which is here brought yt is knowne that euen in the same booke owt of which these testimonies be cited off the Ans he proueth that heretikes owght by vertue off the lawe off God gyuen by Moses to be put to death Whereby appeareth that all these will haue certen Iudicialls off moses and those especially that giue sentence off death against the crimes which I setdowne to be still in as full force as euer they were Vnto whom I could adde Peter Martyr which hath a longe dispute off the necessarie obseruation off the punishement off the lawe against adulterers And as for Hemingius considering that he agreeth that so much remaineth off necessitie as perteineth to the lawes of nature he maketh nothing against me which both haue shewed and further am readie to shewe that all those crimes are off that kinde which by the lawe off nature ought to receiue the reward of death Howe for so much as the 8. Diuision off the 2. cha in the 3. Tract perteineth vnto this matter I will here set downe the answer off yt 8. Diuiston pa. 149. Here is to encounter withe Zacharie the Prophet Cyrill and suche a corrupte sentence off Cyrill as doothe at once bothe ouerthrowe vnder the lawe the iustice of God againste synne in the worlde to comme and vnder the Gospell all manner off corporall punishementes in this worlde to be executed by men vppon those whiche hauinge done euill repente them For yt dothe not onelye affirme but yt goethe a bowte to proue that the synne whiche was vnder the lawe punished by corporal deathe coulde not be punished off the lorde by eternall deathe which as it is a wicked error the rewarde off synne beinge not onely deathe off the body but off the sowle also so the two pillers wheroff yt standethe are as detestable For the firste whiche is that they haue suffred punishemente fo their synnes and receiued the revvarde off their vvickednes so that for that faulte vvhiche they so suffer for there can be no reuengement aftervvarde hange ouer their sovvles yt is no les despiteful to the iustice of god and iniurious to the deathe of Christe then the popishe doctrine of supererogatiō For if an adulterer by suffrīg deathe for his crime hathe āswered the iustice of god so that the lorde for that faulte can not take aduenge mente of his sowle when a man suffrethe withowte cause and for righteousnes sake howe owghte he not beside his owne purgacion for synne purchase somewhat for him that lackethe As for the other reason yt is moste false For the lorde punishe the one synne by other synnes by deathe in this worlde and by deathe in the worlde to come yt is also a false grounde off the Pelagian heretike wherwithe he woulde proue that our original corruption is no synne whiche can deserue the wrathe off god And as the former parte fighte the for the Papistes and for the Pelagians so this other standethe for the Anabaptistes men whom the aswerer pretendethe to haue war withe but to whom in deede he ministrethe weapons suche as they be to fighte againste the trewthe For yf this be not Anabaptisticall that there is no bodily punishemente laide vpon publike offenders vnder the gospell and that whatsoeuer offence he committe if he shewe tokens off repentance he maye be deliuered from bodylie punishemente I knowe not what is Anabaptisme For what murtherer is there what traitor c. whiche althoughe he be neuer so vnrepentante and obstinate in his synne hauinge hearde tell off the answerers gracious pardon will not enforce himselfe to shewe all tokens off repentance whiche if he doo the eie off mens iudgemente beinge not hable to perce further then to thes owtwarde signes they muste haue him for repentante althowghe he remaine the same whiche before And if there be one suche sentence in all either the admonition or my replie so iniurious to the office off the magistrate so pernicious vnto all manner of common welthes as this is wee refuse not that I maye also promise for the Admonitors to be taken as enemies vnto the magistrate and as ouerturners off common welthes For this is the sworde whiche S. Paule put in the magistrates hande to be drawne not of pleasure but off dewtie not againste the vnrepentante onelye but againste the vnrighteousnes off those whiche shall publikly offende whatsoeuer either striken cleane owte of his hande or els if ante
examination be necessary for a deacon yt is muche more necessary for the minister againste that he saide that the fixt off the Actes coulde not serue to proue any thinge touching the ministers election because yt was off deacons he answerethe not but passethe by quietly and maketh no wordes But his other sayinge that there is no mention made off any tryall he holdethe still for good askinge me what one worde off tryall is there I answere that albeit there be not this worde trie yet ther is that which wayeth as muche for the greake worde loke ovvte can not be seuered from a triall And if S. Luke had but vsed the symple verbe which in our tounge signifieth consider yet that off yt selffe had force to haue leade the chusers to a tryall off them which were to be chosen nowe vsinge the compounde thereby he laide vppon them a greater necessitie and a more carefull diligence off triall off them Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby to haue called the church to a diligente serche and tryall off those which were to bee choosen they woulde haue contented them selues to haue saide take from emongest you c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office which is bothe vnlike and almoste impossible seinge there were certeine thowsandes off late added vnto the churche yet euen those which are well knoweÌ„ vnto vs when they be to be chosen vnto suche great charges are to be inquired into a freshe For that knowledge off a man whiche is sufficiente for vs to liue with him in priuate societie and common course off life is not enoughe to promote him to suche a dignity in the churche and that experience off one vppon confidence wheroff wee durste truste him with our weightiest affaires is not sufficiente thereupon to commit vnto him the lordes matters So that consideringe the weighte off an ecclesiasticall office the manifolde creuisses off mans dissimulation with the dullnes off our sighte to espie them there can be no feare off too muche triall eueÌ„ off those whiche we thinke we knowe already And therfore allthoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were apte for that office yet the Apostels admonition off diligent considering whome they chose which coulde not be withowt tryall was not owte off time Againe that the Apostels giue in charge vnto the churche that they shoulde chose suche as had testimonie off there good behauiour perteineth to the examination for the churche in seking testimonie off there good conuersation tried them what they where And vnles this be tryall towching the conuersation off him which is to be chosen minister in the churche of England there is no tryall at all considering that the triall which is had is by the testimonie off certeine So I conclude that this place off the actes makinge for the examination off the Deacon is muche more stronge for the examination of the minister To the nexte section I answere not Diuis 4. What is in the begining off the boke because you set it not downe and I haue not the boke to see I will leaue to euery one to consider Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt where speaking to the Archedeacons he saithe Take heede that the persons vvhom you presente vnto vs be apre and meerâ— c. declare that the bishope passethe his election vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine seinge the election and ordination hangeth only vppon the Bishoppes pleasure And he partly seinge that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe and partly as yt semeth willinge that that gowlfe shoulde swallowe vpp all other mens interrestes in this election setteth him selfe to proue yt And where as I alledged that yt is not safe in so vveightie a mater to coÌ„mit that to the powre of one vvhich may be vvith lesse daunger doone by many he goeth abowt to proue that the bishoppe is off all other fittest for that matter Wherin obserue that the D. is quyte goone from the cause For the question is not whether he be off others most fytt but vvhether yt be fytt that he alone shoulde doe it So that if he will haue it a reasone againste the cause this yt is The bishoppe is more hable then any one to make a good examination therfore more hable to make yt then a great sorte more hable to make yt then any one therfore more hable to make yt alone then when he hath other ioyned with him Which is all one as iff he shoulde haue saide The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone then with the helpe off the lefte I doe not here take exception againste the longe experience in thes thinges which he saithe the bishoppe hathe yet he cannot haue it at his first orderiÌ„ge of ministers aÌ„d others mighte haue yt as wel as he if the examinatioÌ„ were as well permitted vnto theÌ„ as vnto him I medell not also with the bishopes either sounde learning or ruled affections which what they be in some is well knowen what theye maye be consideringe that they be not tied to the rochet yt is easie to be considered Let him be as well experienced learned affected as suche a bishopp maie be yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this but that the bishopp owght not to be shute oute in this examination Where he saithe Surely if any one man or mo be voyd off such affefections and thought meet to haue such matters committed vnto him yt is the Bishopp yt had bene good he had assured that Surely with some reason otherwise yt must as yt is be holden for an vnshamfaste begging of that which is denied And off the same sorte is that which followeth that if he be worthie the office off a bishope he maie safely be credited with al thinges incideÌ„t vnto the same for this is that which lieth between vs whether yt be incident to the office off a bishoppe to haue thonely examination off those which are chosen to the ministerie Which yff I coulde geue you I woulde to be ridd off thes importunat askinges Yâ— followethe not because ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe maie be committed to one therfore ecclesiasticall also whiche concerne the liffe to come maie be so hazarded Nay for so muche as maÌ„s insighte into ciuille affaires and iudgement in them is sharper then in matters perteininge to the churche it is cleare that there ye more helpe required in thes then in the other Besides that when as princes by takinge counsailes vnto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme and for better deciding off priuate mens causes appoincte whole beâ—ches off Iustices standing off fiue or sixe they doo sufficiently declare therby howe they haue the Iudgement off one be he neuer so wise
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
if Maister W. answer be good are auoided vvith a floute that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus and Nombers that they carie vs to Iudaisme c. Yt is vvell the D. hath not to doo vvith the Anabaptistes For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawse vvhich hauinge so sure groundes in the scripture ▪ is here by him laied open to their mockerie For he saith that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptisme off Children When our Sauiour Christe speaketh there onely off those vvhich vvere off discretion as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptise those whom they haue made scolers off Christe by their doctrine And therfore for so much as the Apostels coulde not teache children nor coulde not make them disciples by teachinge before their baptisme yt is manifeste that he speaketh not there off childrens baptisme And this might he haue learned for his vse in the same booke off Zuinglius oute of which he hath taken so manie thinges to no pourpose And it is not onely Maister Zuinglius answer but other learned mennes vvhich haue had to doo vvith that secte As for the promise alledged that god is our God and the God of our seede albeit that bee the grounde wherupon the holy sacramentè off Baptisme is ministred vnto infantes yet yt is not sufficiente vvithout addinge the commaundement off God touchinge the circumcision off yonge children For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promise vnto Abraham had commaunded no circumcision at all or had onely commaunded yt to be gyuen to those off discretion yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to haue circumcised his infantes yet they shoulde haue remained vnder the promes So that vvhether Yow vvill or no wee muste come to reason from circumcision vnto baptisme Neither is that yow alledge of Circumcision to haue beene a figure off baptisme sufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes vvherwith yow snare yowr selfe For albeit yt bee a figure off baptisme yet yt is aceremonie and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe and yowr answer is generall againste all reasoninge from the ceremoniall lawe vnto that which is established vnder the gospell Therfore I vpholde still that yovvr ansvveres here and in other places tende to spoile vs off diuers pillers and principall buttresses off our religion Where he saithe he condemnethe not other churches which haue appoincted other orders of electing pastors I reporte me to thè reader whether the wordes be generall and vvhether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose be likwise Nether can the D. shewe any reason why in Geneua vvhy in vvhole Dominions in Germanie Why in Scotlande in Fraunce also in the tyme off their peace this order off election by the consente off the people shoulde bee good and pernitious in England Which notwithstandinge owghte to haue bene shewed if there be anie I expounded the worde ovvght as reason vvheroff the lawe is founded and experience vvhich is often times the interpreter off the lawe tawgte me to shewe that vvhere the consente off all can not bee had ▪ there the thinge shoulde passe by the moste parte of those which haue intereste And where yow affirme that lawiers doo saie that that sentence is to bee vnderstanded of compartners or iointe tenantes in some howse or possession and not off the interest off bodies politike I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they professe and therfore iff that be shewed me I will reste in that interpretation But the reason assigned that it seldome commeth to pas that they will all consente semethe not so stronge consideringe that there is not so great violence doone vnto the wordes off the lawe which may not be founde in other places if by the worde all the moste parte be vnderstanded Especially when allthowghe all doo not agree yet all haue had free voice in that matter And where yow saie that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions that is not materiall For I laie not so muche weighte of this sentence as thowghe the cause should rise and fall vvith it I mente that as much credite mighte growe vnto the cause by this as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moste part off which kinde off reasons not onely orators but the scripture yt selfe diuers times vseth And therfore if I gaine by this lawe that the ordinarie choise off ministers owght to be by the people I hath at I loked for But yt is to be obserued that where the A founde faulte vvith me for mitigatinge the necessitie off the worde ought by this exception if it maie be he notwithstandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions wherby the necessitie which he saithe that worde importeth is quite ouerthrowne And if those condicions be trewe then be like I did well vnderstande the worde ought the vnderstandinge wheroff he can not aforde me Yt is well you be no lawier For yowe that are so liberall off a dinners talke as to tell vs off Many together and Many senerally with so many exceptions to so smale pourpose if yow had beene studied that waies woulde haue troubled vs all for then yt is like vvee shoulde haue had alwaies Cesar for Christe and Paule the lawier for Saint Paule the Apostell But marke vvhat a trymme waie he hathe founde to proue that the whole parishe chuseth when the bishopp onely chusethe that they are willinge to haue hym whom they are compelled whether they vvill or no to receiue Yea and not onely that but that euery minister is chosen by the whole realme that is to saie by those which neuer sawe him nor heard off him But hath he forgotten firste that it is our controuersie whether the parliament haue doon well in establishing off suche an order off makinge ministers and whether this egge off the bishoppes election laied in propery could by the sitting vppon off the Parliament although neuer so godly leese the poysoned nature it had before If that bee not agreed this deuise that the people chuse when the bishop be-because yt was so ordeined by all estates serueth not This libertie as hathe bene shewed is a peece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased vnto his churches by the sheddinge off his precious bloud wherin they owght to haue stood and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate or set ouer to others then to giue awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen wherunto this is annexed Moreouer we speake off an electiō wherin consente is to be gyuen as ofte as the church is destitute off a minister and he off consente ones gyuen for euer We off an election which is passed by all the howsholders off euery church he off that vvhich vvas passed by a fewe burgeses in the vvhole realme We off a free election and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue againste yowr will. Now the Papistes may clap their handes for againste all the argumentes that Maister
Caluin Beza Bullinger Zuinglius and others bringe to proue that the church ought to haue right in the election off their minister and that yt belongeth not to one bishopp to choose a minister they may answer that the bishop chuseth not but the church yea the whole realme For the prince and the people and the vvhole lande haue giuen that powre vnto the Pope and the pope to him so that whatsoeuer is doon in that election by the bishoppe is doon by the people But see howe I forget my selfe which alledge this vnto him as a greate absurditie whose case in this question is all one with the Papistes yet euen with him it shall be sufficient to vntie the bande which wee haue bounde our selues with onles he will haue the election still continewe in the Popes handes And indeede he calleth vs heere to the consideration off our sinnes wherby wee haue thus prodigally wasted and gyueÌ„ into the handes of straungers the liberties which were bowght with so great a price And wee haue better cawse to thinke the earnestlier off them for somuche as the Answ lawgheth vs to scorne and woulde make vs beleue that wee consente to elections when wee are a sleepe that we chuse those whom wee refuse and so other eatinge the kernels he maketh vs not a diner but a feaste with the shels To all thes accusations off the A. wherby he chargeth the ciuill elections off bodies politike if I shoulde answer that The disorder off the bishoppes election is suche the peace with Sathan and synne and contention with all goodnes that hath and dailie dooth issue by them into all the partes off the Realme so horrible the ambition of the person standinge in election so shameles the corruption off some the partiall affection off others to their kinsfolke their seruaÌ„ts their seruaÌ„ts freeÌ„ds the carelesnes of others in some the waÌ„te of sufficieÌ„t knowledge in other some of sinceritie and purenes of doctrine to be shorte in all the wante of dewe consyderatioÌ„ of weightynes of that ministerie is so apparante that as that manner off election for necessarie cawses is altered in the best ordered churches in Europe so it is desired to be altered in the churche of Englande by those which be wise godly and learned and by those which loue the godlie quietnes and prosperitie off the churche and that experience crieth that those are the worthiest ministers most apteste to set forthe the glorie off God muste profitableste for the church which are chosen with the consente of the people I saie if I shoulde answer thus I dowte not but all the worlde will witnes with me that I haue iuster cause thus to speake off the bishoppes elections off ministers then the A. hathe to speake so slaunderously off ciuill elections made by consent in townes and cities God be praised this cause off discipline wee mainteine hath bene and by Godes grace shal be vpholden withoute towche off any lawfull estate or forme off gouernment off commen wealth but yt appeareth that the Answ can not mainteine his cawse without open oppugninge off one off them And therfore to keepe the bishoppe in his throne downe muste goe all elections by manie and by the same reason all trialls off controuersies by manie all determinations and iudgmentes by manie and in a vvorde the whole estate almoste off our commen wealth muste bee remoued Yow acâ—e vs off confoundinge the commen wealth vvhich yow are neuer hable to proue here yow are taken in the verie acte doinge not by conclusion or implication but by a flatt and directe affirmation I dowbte not that wise men doo see yowr folie vvhich beinge so vnskilfull of the gouernment of the churche the knowledge vvherof you doo professe vvill take vpon yow as Phormio vnto Haniball to prescribe vvhat forme of gouernemente muste be vsed in the commen vvealth And if it vvere not beside my profession I coulde shewe that it agreeth moste bothe with the definition of a cytisen vvhich those gyue vvhich handell this matter and vvith the practise off the beste gouerned cities that the cytisens should haue this intereste off choise off their Maiors and Bailifes confirmed by experience off daungerous seditions and seperatioÌ„s from the coÌ„men wealth which haue happened by abridginge the people off this and suche liberties But for somuche as yt belongethe not vnto a diuine to medle with those but to contente him selfe with what forme off gouernemente soeuer so it be lawfull thowght good to those to whom the orderinge of that doothe perteine I leaue to speake of that matter But a man maye smell the D. farre off For this is put in for defence off that spoile which he and others by vntrew surmises moste vnnaturally made in the vniuersitie when to th ende the Idlenes couetousnes and ambition of certeine might be the more secure and without checke they by their longe and crooked talones seased vpon the authoritie off the Vniuersitie Senate But because he casteth so scornefully awaie those reasons vvhich are alledged by me I woulde knowe what he will answer to Maister Martyr who vseth the same reason I haue here saying that it is no meruaile that the church hath this righte to chuse her ministers seinge the ciuil lavves doo giue this povvre to incorporate tovvnes to chuse their Physicions and Scolemaisters Where he saith that the multitude is for the moste parte ignorant careles and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection hatred feare c. There is no vice which anie one off the churche is subiecte vnto but the bishopp is subiecte vnto the same Nether iâ— there any affection enemie vnto a good election wheroff the bishoppe is not liker to be ouercomed then either the whole churche or the greateste parte theroff What neede this goinge abowte the bushe I speake off the visible churche called by the preaching off the gospell not off those whose callinge is yet hydden and folded vp in Godes electioÌ„ And of those I saie not as yow for what can yow els doo vntrewly reporte that they can not erre in chusing their pastor but that they are not such ignorant dottrels as yow woulde make vs beleue aÌ„d such as haue no taste to discerne betwene good and bad holie and vnholie And this knowledge and discretion off good and euill is not onely in those whiche are effectually called but in those also vvhich haue onely the outward callinge without the spirite off sanctification and adoption off the children off god So that the pretence off suche ignorance as yow speake off can not fall into anie whiche are off the visible church off god The D. coulde not hale in the corrupte interpretation off the pope in this place to helpe to make vp his answer but he muste ascribe a notable vntrewthe vnto me that I shoulde goe abowte to proue that the churche can not erre in the election off the minister Where haue I pretended any suche thinge or what neede haue I to
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew forsomuch as according to his saying for one in the church which heareth profitablie three doo the contrarie yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche there muste be thrise as manie euill as good Onles peraduenture he will saie that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche vnto the worldes end and especially to that present churche which was vnder the crosse Ys it trewe vvhich yow heere affirme can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent Howe cometh then to passe that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche How happeneth yt that yow affirme that Timothe and Titus off their owne authorities withowt the consente ether off eldershipp or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches in Ephesus and Creata that in Cyprians times which were times of persequution the electiō vvas made in some places vvithowt the people verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner which should set the◠together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche and the institution off God had so suffred the churches woulde haue submitted them selues and their voices in their elections vnto the order of one And besides that christian humilitie and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it Onles they woulde rather quittethe church which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale which yow for yowr aduantage ascribe vnto a persequuted church HEere he denieth that he hath saide that the consent off the churche in the choise off the minister can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate All the reasons vvhich he alledged are to proue that the election vnder a Christian magistrate can nor be safelye and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche and euē here he saith it is in thes times pernicious and hurtfull But that which can not be safely and cōueniently doone owghte not be doone muche les that vvhich is pernicious and hurtfull Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake yow think as I haue saide that the churches election can not stand with the time of A Christian magistrat And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste is nothing worth For if it be daungerous if yt be inconuenient as yow say to committe the election to the churche he owgte not althowge he woulde giue it into her handes Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter because the Emperours made lawes off the election which they woulde not haue doone yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God yow are to farre wyde For wee reade that Aza made a lawe that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord should die And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God and receiue the sacramentes and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God and vnchangable nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise Yf the reasons vvhich Musc bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche can be answered then I will leaue them and followe his authoritie otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it vvith his lefte hand yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte T. C. concealed nothing subtilely in leauing owt that the ministers ovvght to be blameles he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for or againste the pourpose If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place ether he should haue omitted this or spoken yt againste his consciēce For I propounded onelye that the election off the churche was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate and cōfirmed by them and the D. can not denie but this place proueth that fully whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles or no I shewed before Therfore this disputation is with your selfe and with nothing which I set downe And if I had so set it downe whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt considering that the sentence which I lefte owghte to be shut in a parenthesis I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader As for the reasons vvhich are vsed for that pourpose the one that he would haue said decre◠and not wee decree is answered before Thother of propounding three owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles is not sufficient to proue that the Emperour did not set before him their example seing that in the principall poinctes and causes off the election amongest which the chusers are the efficient he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles Yea if it be well considered yt shall be easely perceiued that he stucke too curiously and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp of which one should be taken so in a grater multitude he would haue three out of which he would drawe one And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles were onely as yow would haue yt that the moste pure should be taken yet yow can not denie but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way to haue most incorrupt ministers that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours I will not striue with him in this point because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be wherat he breaketh owt alwaies from that which is in question Yt were an euill interpretation to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie the cheife off the citie especially considering that the decree of other Emperours vvhich followed ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people And considering that the Nouelles in latin are corrupte in many places yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code and other lawes by them especially with such open violence And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families put the heades off the citie but for this also I will not striue What ether against my cause or for yowres conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three which were chosen after that sort Likewise what gaine yow if which is vntrue or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides a man should accord yow that Charles the great was Emperour of the French and not off the Duch Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of The shelter also yow seke in those wordes according to the canons off that
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
the Epistell againste the circunstance off the place he alledgeth that the moste off the preceptes conteined in that epistell doo properly perteine vnto Timothe as he is a bishop Which is vntrwe especially in that sense he taketh a bishop which the Apostels neuer knewe off for there shal be scarse two sentences found in the whole epistle which agree not to euery pastor And set aside those whiche cōcerne teachinge there are very fewe not commen with him vnto an elder which onely gouerneth Beside diuers belonging vnto the whole church as well as vnto him and some rather to other partes off the church then vnto him yet iff the moste shoulde properly belonge vnto him howe can he proue that the sentence off not layinge one off handes rashly doth onele belonge vnto him he hath cyted many to proue that Saint Paule saith yt doth belonge vnto the bishop which is not denied but that yt doth onely belonge by this place off Saint Paule which is denied he hath not one Nay diuers off his authors heere alledged haue the contrarie off that he pretendeth to proue by them For Bull. I haue saide Calu. denyinge that ether Paule or Timothe did any thinge in elections withowt the consent off the church towching the bare ceremonie off layinge on the handes he dowteth whether yt were doone by one or many And Ierome althowgh he saie that the ordinacion belonged to the bishop yet I haue shewed in the former booke that he cōfesseth that that was by no order of God or rule of the Apostles by which he confesseth that the bishopps were equall vnto the reste of the elders but onely by constitutiō off men Therfore he is vntrwely cited to confirme that by this place off the Apostell the bishoppe hath ether the election or ordination vnto him selffe As for Chrysostome and Oecumenius vnto whome is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeted I answer at ones that yt semeth violent that the Apostle vsinge the worde eldershipe shoulde shutte forth those which were properly called elders And where I alledged pag. 226. that Chrisostome ment not by those wordes to put a distinctiō betwene elders by age and office I was deceiued The occasion was because he doth so in the same epistle where he had no more cause then heere and not lokinge vppon the the place when I wrote I tooke one for another But yt is to be noted that their interpretation is directly againste the D. for Chrysostome affirmeth that the Bishoppes off Ephesus which appeare to haue bene diuers in the Actes did lay on their handes and Beza that all those vvhich had the mynistrie off the vvorde are meant by the vvord presbitery So that by their iudgement one onely did not ordeine nor lay on handes both which the D. affirmeth As for the other sentence off Chrysostome with Theophilacte althowgh Paule lefte vnto Tite to doe those thinges which were ioined with most honour yt foloweth not that he lefte them to be doone otherwise then himselfe did them But he doth to much abuse his reader which would make hym beleue that he drewe this from the godly writers which he hath from professed enemies off the trwth For thes are the reasons off Pighius which to proue that the bishopp onely should choose and not the church alledged thes twoo places off Tite and Timothe which the Answerer hath Thus the firste reason off the D. with all the authorities wherwith he hath walled yt is gone to the ground for as for Ambrose testimonie yt maketh nether whot nor kolde no man dowteth but that Timothe owght to be circumspecte in ordeininge ministers The second reason is that iff the election off a bishop had off necessytie perteined vnto the people thē S. Paul would not haue writtē to Timothe of yt but vnto the churches as well as vnto him As though there were not many thinges in those epistles necessay for the churches to doo or as though they inscribed vnto Titus and Timothe are not written for the instruction of the whole churche euen in that very sentence off imposition off handes For when Saint Paule tawght that Timothe mighte not lay on his handes rashly he tawght the whole churches that they shoulde not chuse any rashely What is I besech yow in Saint Lukes two bookes dedicated vnto Theopilus which doth not aswell perteine vnto all sortes off men in the church as vnto him That the holy ghoste therfore intituleth his bookes sometimes vnto particular persons was not that the Doctrine conteined in them shoulde more perteine vnto them then vnto others but ether because he woulde lifte vpp their heade aboue the reste or for some other particuler circumstance .. And in Maister Caluines iudgement they were both written rather for instruction off other in the church then for Timothe and Titus For there beinge great resistance made vnto those younge men off diuers in the churches off Ephesus and Crete the Apostle to supporte them againste their aduersaries and to gird them with more authoritie so intituled their epistles that they mighte knowe that those thinges they did ād tawght they nether did nor taught of them selues but by his cōmaundement As therfore all thinges conteined in thes Epistles were to be knowen off Timothe and Titus so were they all to be knowen off euery one in those churches And as there are thinges in them the exercise wheroff concerned Timothe and Titus onely so there are other the exercise wheroff did at no hand apperteine to any off them As for the circumstance off the place which he saieth is against my replie he sheweth none But there is a manifest circūstance againste him which the Apostle by and by addeth kepe they selfe pure and communicate not vvith the faultes off other as iff he should saie althowghe thow canste not hinder the ordeining off insufficient officers of the church yet kepe they selfe pure Moreouer if this writing vnto Timothe alone that he should laie handes off none rashely shoulde giue him alone authoritie to ordeine and electe pastors then yt should followe that not onely the church and elders off Ephesus but the Bishopes which were there together with Timothe should haue bene shutte owte which iff the D. dare not saie beside that this holde is gone he muste recante the sole election and ordination by Timothe Yow maie easely put me owte off dowbte off that which I neuer dowbted and which I haue somewhere confessed that by the ceremonie off layinge on off handes the whole forme off orderinge is vnderstanded But off that yow shoulde proue that in that place off Saint Paule it is so vnderstanded althowghe yt is not that which can hurte our cause yow bringe not so much as maie induce vnto any the leaste suspiciō Your reason that he did electe because he did appoincte is to symple For albeit to chuse be to appointe yet euery one which appointeth chooseth not no more then yt followeth that because euery man liueth
1. Tim. 1. 18. proueth not that Timo. had his calling confirmed by miracle first becawse Prophecie is no miracle then becawse he being ordeined by putting on off handes needed no confirmaton by miracle the first is nothing but daliance in the word my meaning being apparant which is that he was by an extraordinary calling and in our Ministers vnwonted Albeit yff to haue thinges hid and which no knowledge off man is able to come vnto foretould be miraculous yt can not be denied but that a Prophecie may in a generall sense be called a miracle The other exception is friuolous considering that both Paul and Barnabas which were miraculously called of the holy gost by the voice off the Prophetes vnto acerten ministerie had notwithstanding for a further confirmacion the laying on off handes off the Mynisterie off Antioche And yt ys also vngoddly as that which directly contrarieth Sainct Paul which drawing argumentes for the confirmacion off Timothe as well off that Propheceie as off the imposition off handes esteemed them both needfull That which he addeth that there is no mention off any Euangelistship in that place off Timothe is vnworthy any answer An other answer is that Timoth. was Bishop in proofe whereoff like an euill shoomaker as one saide which putteth a great shoo on a litle foot he hath spent a whole sheet off papir When yf he had gained this point yt would serue him to small aduantage which notwithstanding how far he is from shall plainely be seen Therfore to giue the onset off this great heape his first reason that Timothe was bishop because the Epistels written vnto him conteine the office off a bishop proueth as well that he was a Deacon a widowe a man a woman old young and consequently a monstre seing he wrote off all their duties Yea rather that he was a Deacon Considering that there is nothing in the description off a Deacon which agreeth not vnto him but in the description off a bishop that which he requireth off not being giuen to vvine and not being a young Christian could haue no place in Timothies instruction nourished in the truth from his cradel and so sparing in the vse off wine that S. Paul was faine to call him to a more liberall vso off it let him shew therfore but one onely precept directed vnto Timothe in both those Epistels which is proper vnto a bishop nay let him shew one procept that onely excepted which I alledged off doing the worck of an Euangelist which owght not as well to haue bene obserued off the Apostel him self yf he had tawght where Timothe did Yf he be able to shew no one such point which maketh him to differ from other ministers of the word then all may see how vaine a reason this is which he hath made the growndsell off this cawse His second reason drawne as he calleth yt off the subscription of the second Epistle is as vaine For who is there onles be which hath his nose stuffed with selfe willed preiudice against the truth that can not easely smell that subscription not to be in the canon off the holy scripture for considering that he had in the beginning off the Epistle made the direction vnto Timothet what needed he in the subscription repete the same againe Likewise that he was first and that he was ordeined or chosen by voice sauoreth not S. Paul. Considering that yf there were any such thing both Timot. and the Ephesi knew it well and there was more cawse to write that in the former Epistel then in this whereby he calleth him from thence also in the superscription then in the subscriptiō seing it is contrary to all vse of letters to set ether the name or titles off him to whom we write in the subscription or vnderwriting of our letters This riot and disorder hardly happen vnto a man off meane Iudgement and shall we thinke that they were committed off Saint Paul or rather of God by him last off all that the subscription hath vvas vvritten and not vvritten and vvhen Paul appeared not vvhen I or vvhen I Paul appeared doth manifestly argue that yt was none off his considering that there ys no suche subscription in all his Epistles where he speaketh off him self in the third person And seing in those thinges wherein he vsed the hand off an other which copied out his letters he neuer vseth that manner of speache that he would vse yt in the subscription which can not be otherwise esteemed then off his owne hand yt is altogether incredible ▪ Where for confirmation off this he saith that it is so in the most best and auncientest greeke copies him self setdowne his answer which he is not able once to remoue For yf those subscriptiōs be vntrue as appeareth especially in that of the first epistle to the Cor. which haue testimonie off the moste best and auncientest writers as well as this how cometh yt to passe that there being the selfe same autoritie in both yt should be off such strenght in in this subscription which is off no value in the other nay when that subscription to the Cor. hath the testimonie off all greeke copies and this off his is forsaken not onely off the Syriake paraphrase but off diuerse the auncientest greeke copies howe is he not ashamed to lay such weight off this cawse in that testimonie yt is true therefore that M. Beza saith that these subscriptions were not S. Pauls but some others for the most part ether vnlearned or not so well aduised His third reason is drawne off autoritie off writere wherein not to examin howe truly he hath alledged these places as a thing vnworthy the tourning off a leafe nor to speake off his fond allegation off diuers autorities especially Chrysostome and Theodoreis which make no manner mention off any bishopely state off Timothe off Zuinglius twise cited which making thoffice off a bishop and Euangelist one serueth not to proue ether that he was more a bishop then an Euangelist or that the same may haue diuers functions at once I say not to examin these they are all yf I would vse his owne weapon ouerthrowne in a word that histories are not curious in calling men by their seuerall titles If that be true in histories which off all other seeke after euen from the cradell to the graue thinges of les importance then the office which a man hath borne ether in church or commen wealth much more is it in other writers But that writers especially when they speake by the way and not off set pourpose speake thus and call mē by vnpropertitles shal be once answered against all the rakinges both here and pag. 230. when I come to the D. argumēts whereby he proueth Prophetes Euangelistes Apostles c. In the meane season I will not sticke to cōfesse that diuers off these writers histories especially peraduenture deceiued by that subscription estemed him a bishop
out off Bulling Muscul Heming to be preaching the gospell purely and constantly is nothing to the pourpose For we graunt yt is true but that there is further vnderstanded which may seuere hym from other ministers off the word Whereoff Caluin assigneth thes reasons one that by ascribing vnto him this degree aboue that off Pastors he might procure him more autoritie the other that he might thereby gyue the spur to stir vp and enforce him self to all carefull trauaile off answering so highe a calling Off both which reasons he assigneth a manifest cause which is that the Apostel throughout his whole epistle driueth vnto those two endes This is yet clearer for that where other titles off Apost Prophe c. be caried off the scripture from their particular vnto a generall signification this word off Euangelist set a part this place in controuersie is not vsed but to note that proper office opposed vnto other ministeries off the word And therefore the Apostel hauing occasion to speake off this word preacher shunneth as semeth the word Euangelist and vseth an other when as notwithstanding the word Euangelist was proper to holy writ and thother commen to prophane off which reason also I left a step in the place before recited Againe Eusebius howsoeuer otherwise he forgetteth him self where he speaketh off that proper office noteth it out by the same manner of speache which the Apostell saying they did the vvorcke off Euangelistes Last off all it appeareth by that the scripture setteth forth off him both before he was at Ephesus and after touchching his ministerie in many places where the Apostels had tawght before that the worcke off Euangelist is taken in that particular signification whereby it is seuered from other Ministers considering that the Euangelistes office was to water where the Apostles had planted and to be assistant vnto them His third answer is a mash and bruing of all together drinck fitter for horse then men For to be sure to make Timothe a bishop he thinketh that one at one time may be Apostle Euangelist Doctor bishop and I can not tell what which is directly against the word off god As when yt saith that God gaue some Apostels some Prophetes againe he set first Apostles secondly Prophetes c. Againe are all Apostels are all Prophetes c. Whereby appeareth that the holy gost placeth thes diuers giftes in seuerall persones and that they are one vnder an other so that onles one and the same maÌ„ may at one time be second and third inferior and superior before and after him selfe yt can not be that one at one time can be Apostle Euangelist c. hetherto perteineth which is towched in the former booke that the Apostel bringeth off the likenes off constitution off our bodies with the church that as the naturall bodie so the spirituall of the churche is best preserued and mainteined in most comelines when euery member doth his proper office and of the contrary side â—â— th one so thother is hurt and disfygured when one breaketh vpon an other Whereuppon yt is euident how vntrue yt ys which the D. doth in so great assurance set downe that one may be Euangelist and Bishop at one time Besides that he is confuted by his owne wordes For if the office off an Euangelist be to preach more feruently then others which significatioÌ„ those three which he hath set downe onely as that which putteth a differeÌ„ce betweÌ„ yt aÌ„d others caÌ„ staÌ„d theÌ„ he caÌ„ be no bishop coÌ„sidering that euery office hath his proper gift according to the measure whereof it is exequuted And yt is as absurd that a bishop should preach more ferueÌ„tly aÌ„d beyoÌ„d the measure of a bishop as yt is that a maÌ„ may leape beyond him self ouerrun himself yt is saide that one in his full age differeth from him selfe in his childhood and a man at one time may after a sort passe hym self at an other but that he should differ from him self at one and the same time as the D. iudgement implieth this is the first tydinges I haue heard off yt Againe yt is houlden off all that I haue red Zuinglius onely excepted which maketh a bishop and an Euangelist all one that both an Euangelist is not and a bishop is bound to a certaine place And this difference is thus far confessed off the D. that the Pastor is more bound to one speciall church then the Euangelist which yf yt be true a man being as he saith at one time both bishop and Euangelist may be also at one time bound and not bound vnto one place haue a speciall charge off one and indifferent off all which will be hard for him to bring to passe without he worcke miracles For his reasons whereupon this opinion standeth that Saint Paul is called a Doctor S. Mathew and Iohn being Apostels are off writers called Euangelistes they are far from prouing this Touching the fyrst Saint Paul ys not called a Doctor symply but with addition Doctor off the Gentils declaring that his Mynistry perteined not to one kingdome but vnto all which is all one with an Apostel Towching thother he should vnderstand that our question ys not off an Euangelist as writers but as Sainct Paul taketh Euangelist which can be by no meanes vnderstanded off him which writeth the storie off the gospell considering that Philip which is confessed to haue bene an Euangelist in that sense was none Yff he say that the Apostle ment to set forth twoo kindes of Euangelistes one preaching onely an other preaching and writing too I answer that Saint Paule pourposing there to set forth the liberalitie off the Lord in giuing preaching ministries vnto the church was nether so negligent a commender off the grace off God nor so drie and poore off speach but yf there had bene an other seuerall ministerie as this answer supposeth he both would and could haue vsed an other word as a seuerall dishe to haue presented this gift with And seyng the D. bringeth in S. Paul offring one onely gift of the bishoprik vnto the church in two wordes as it were two dishes what likelihood ys there that he would thrust vp so narrowly thes two giftes whereoff ech off them being more excellent then the bishoprick asketh greater roume Moreouer by the same reason that men may call Saint Mathew and Saint Iohn Euangelists becawse they wrote the stories of the gospell they may call S. Paul and Peter c. For as they wrote the storie so thes wrote the summe off the whole doctrine off the gospell They being therefore both writers off the gospell in this rule of esteeming Euangelistes by writing muste needes be a like Euangelistes For the greeke word fauoureth the one as well as the other yt being as ioyfull newes which S. Peter and Paul wrote as that which S. Mathew and Iohn For the difference off storie and summe bring not a graine weight to pull the name of
not to seek corners in the diuers interpretation off the place when as that off the Actes doth in plaine and confessed speach vtter the same that is here debated off After he addeth howsoeuer the place be expounded yet it maketh not against him No if S. Peter and Paul crye neuer so highe in this language of continuall residence yet the D. is deaf and will not heare Yf both the Apostles doo not only commaund the Pastors to feed in their proper flockes not onely that they must employ their talentes but vvhere yt ys manifest that they shut owt that rouing abroad vnto other churches vvhich is pretended for Non residence I shewed how the argument is good taken from the place off the Thessal that for so much as S. Paul conceiued a great greif in being absent a small space from those to whom he was not so streitly bound as the Pastor to his flock the Pastor owght muche more to be greiued to be away from his flock And consequently thereoff must follow that if their absence sat so neer their hartes as yt owght yt would hang such plummets off their heales as should hinder them from those lightfooted leapes which he mainteineth I added also that the Pastor hauing the same dutie vnto his proper church vvhich the Apostles had tovvardes all the churches of their charge yt must follovv that as they vvere continually in their ministery tovvardes some off those churches so the Pastor should be continuall vppon the charge off his church That he bringeth against this that the Apostle did not speake this in any duty off mynistery for that a learned man noteth off that place how the sainctes desire to see one an other bodely is ridiculous as if his desire to see them could not stand with the duty off the his mynistery In the two next diuis vnto the reasons alledged off the Pastors care so much more stirred vp as he seeth the blessing of God vpon his labour and of familiar acquaintaÌ„ce needfull in a Pastor tovvardes his flock to embolden them to come vnto him both vvhich are best procured by continuall residence he answereth nothing where I alledged the singular loue by this meanes vvrought betvvene the Pastor and the flock he asketh me how I know it seing I had neuer experience in any I know yt of the cawses off loue whereoff the daily conuersation and delight to be together is one off the principall off naturall reason which I cyted owt off Aristotle that teacheth how men haue greater care ouer thinges proper vnto them then ouer those that are commen to them with moe And hauing greater care yt followweth they haue greater loue from whence the care proceedeth Likewise I know yt by experience in the Apostle S. Paul which vttereth greater affections off loue towardes the Corinth and Philip. and other with whom heremaineed longest and suffred moste for then towardes the other churches where he made not that abode nor tooke so great paines He asketh what Aristotle had to doo with non residence if yt had bene but Balams asse he should haue bene schoolemaster fit enough for some which refuse to be taught by the vvord off god But this is one off M. D. oracled which he saith owght to be belieued considering that speaking off the naturall causes off preseruation of thinges for which I alledged him he spake of thinges perteining to his profession That he chargeth me with not reporting Aristot vvordes truly is a wrangling cauill for I kept the sense off the autor considering that a thing commen to many requireth the care off many That he saith it can not be true that it is neglected off all which is cared for off all is to childish considering the flower off speach so often vsed off all writers both prophane and holy as they liuing are dead hauing nothing possesse all thinges he that is euery where is no where Nether is care taken in lesse measure then yt owght to be which I speake off contrary to neglect as he supposeth but a kinde off neglect That he addeth a man owght not so take care off hit priuate thinges as to neglect the commen wealth is froÌ„ the pourpose seing the pastor in his charge ouer his flock serueth not him self but the commen profit and that off the whole church forasmuch as it perteineth to the commoditie off the vvhole body that the part which he hath the nourishement off be well preserued beside that I haue shewed how the care for other churches may be with a continuall residence at his owne In the next diui skowring ouer againe the remouing of Apostles and EuaÌ„gelistes from place to place which is answered he addeth that the Pastors did the same which is vtterly vntrue that a man may be transferred from one place to an other which is no part of the question that those which haue gyuen their names to the gospell are sufficiently armed with faith although the Pastor be not present which is absurd when the armour off faith with the rest off the complete harnesse off o Christian which he speaketh off in the next diuis is not so put vpoÌ„ but that it is daily to be put on and that by the preaching off the gospell especially He saith further that although they be tempted yet they can not be ouercome which is confuted not â—nely by diuers examples of moste excellent sainctes Noe Dauid Peter c. but by whole churches off Galatia c. which haue bene caried away by false teachers For if he speake off the finall victory yt is absurd consydering that that dependeth off the election off God vnknowen vnto him and may be aswell saied off the elect which haue not yet belieued Likewise that it is a more acceptable worck to gaine those which are altogether in ignorance vvherein beside that he taketh vppon him to be a planter off churches which before he assigned to be proper to the Apostles I answer that albeit it be neuer so good a worck in yt self yet it is not good much lesse the best vnto him which hath no calling therunto And in that he presumeth a calling he doth but beg that in controuersy which is also before refuted That he alledgeth off the loste groat â–ª Prodigall sonne c. maketh against him considering that those places are not off straungers from the church but off them vvhich after knowledge off the truth fall into some corruption of life or doctrine as appeareth in the parable of the stray sheep which although it be of the same kinde with thother two he hath by all likelihood left owt because it did more plainely shew his folie In this respect also S. Iames saieth that a man that gaineth his brother straied from the truth sâ—ueth a sowle He saieth his brother not his neighbowr Therefore this moste excellent worck off conuerting sinners and finding off those which are lost being alwaies in the purest churches through the ambicion
God could not cheare him vp againe by preaching wherunto they are as fit as an oxe to flie Witnes the D. him selfe which addeth that our ignorant ministers may by study so profit in knowledge that they may be able priuately to exhort Where yt is merueilons to see how he fometh owt their shame whom he hath taken to his defense Yf he had saied that in time with study they might be able to preach yet forsomuche as while that grasse groweth the people perish his answer had bene vntollerable Now gyuing no further hope then that in time they will be able priuately to admonish which euery Christian owght to doo he hath gyuen sentence off them that they will neuer be able to doo the worcke off Pastors wheroff they beare the name that is that they will neuer be but idoles What they doo by reading is after to be seen The place of Osea which resecteth from the ministery those that haue not knâ—â—â—â—â—ge off the lawe becawse it failed a litle in the quotation he hath let quietly goe by Where he gyueth me the lie for that I ascribe vnto him this argument there must be reading in the church therfore ministers that can doo nothing but reade his wordes be thes I see not how yow can condemne reading ministers seing reading is necessary in the church let the reader iudge what a hard forehead he hath Where I concluded theruppon that euery one vvhich coulde breake bread distribute the cup c. should be a meet minister all see that it followeth vpon the former reason And this which the D. counteth a iest he is not able to answer in his greatest earnest His answer to the place off S. Iames is friuolous For his reason why the place off â— Luke commaunding the 12. disciples to preach can not be applied vnto our Ministers is for that other thinges ioyned with yt were temporall And this is his reason before that the example off the Apostels elections is to be followed wholy or not at all Therfore the place off S. Iames did fully confute his answer considering that the anointing of the sick coupled with praier by the elders off the church being temporall thother notwithstanding is perpetuall And this shift that that place was spoken off all ministers and thother off S Luke off the 12. onely will not couer his shame For what wil he say vnto the rules gyuen as the same tyme that they should be symple in their ministery as doues vvise as serpentes take heed off men are they not spoken to the ministers now becawse they were spoken then to the 12. onely What vnto that our Sauiour Christ commaunded to goe into all the world teaching and baptizing in the name off the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost which place shaketh hym owt of both his ragges for that was spoken to the eleuen Apostels onely and the coÌ„maundement off going into all the world was temporall Yet I thincke he dare not deny but the commaundement off baptizing in the name off Father Sonne and holy Ghost is perpetuall and belonging vnto all Pastors Wheruppon followeth that the place off S. Luke standeth still to whip owt vnpreaching Pastors In the pag. 483. this is handled againe Where I alledge that they be vnchangeable lavves 〈◊〉 God that he should not be minister off the church vvhich can not teach nor Minister Sacramentes vvhich can not preach the D. leauing the first which was the very cause shppeth to the second which is handled in an other Tract as that wherin his prouision was better Howbeit because I would not the D. cause should leese her aduantage by his ouersight I confesse that Chrysostomes testimonie may seeme to perteine to the cause in hand forasmuch as he maketh a kinde off preisthood not able to teach To whom with this exception that I will not be pressed with his autoritie further then he bringeth reason off the word off God I answer that as the word preisthood is often times in ecclesiasticall writers taken for the pastor and cheif minister off the church off which our present question is so sometime yt is taken for the elders ioined as helpers in gouernement vnto the pastor and whiche had not as shall appeare to doo doythe the preaching off the word and administration off the Sacramentes As when yt is saied that the Bishop chosen by Gods ordinance and the Elders ioyned vvith hym in the priestly honour According vnto which sense Chrysostomes saying maketh nothing to this question For we deny not but that he may be an elder and coÌ„sequently as they terme him a preist assistant to the pastor which is not able to preach but that he may be the pastor we vtterly deny So remaineth onely against vs in Chrysost testimonie that he may baptize that can not preach which with the rest perteining to that head shal god willing be in their proper place answered As for the 5. 1. Tim. towching the Elders which rule well in the treatise off the Presbytery yt shall appeare that it is not vnderstanded off these caterpillers where he requireth warrant off the word of God for that I confesse the church may appoint for a reader onely some graue man he confessing yt lawfull as well as I for answer to his request I refer him to that disputation where I haue proued that it is not lawfull to place any thing in the church not iustified by the word That the cavvse off this fevvnes off able ministers is partly the thrusting ovvt off those vvhich are fyt to teach partly that others fyt are not sought after it is manifest Whether they owght to be sought after and not to offer them selues I leaue to be estemed off that which is written in this point in the booke intituled off the discipline c. Whether they be off right thrust owt I leaue to be iudged off the discours off these controuersies whether they which are not yet entred haue iust cawse to forbeare I leaue to be considered off the disputation before and off that of the Archebishop Archedeacons Commissaries c. which followeth For if it fall owt that the calling be vnlawfull wherby the entrance should be made and the autoritie of the church tirantes such that being entred one can not walke in the way off his ministery prescribed off the lord then it must followe that although those that are entred hauing testimony off their conscience that they serue the lorde and keping themselues from the pollutions may poursue their course yet thes can not withowt shipwracke off conscience I speake off ordinary callinges euen in the very port or euer they launche forth commit them selues to this viage Where he saith there want no prouokinges to drawe them to the mynistery euen that is an other cawse off this scarcety for the church-liuinges so vnequally deuided that some fewe being druncken the moste hunger discourage from that study For the parent which followeth the sente off
them His proofes comming a mile after are first that a mans meaning is commenly better expressed by writing then by word Which beside that it is confuted by commensense all men knowing that there is more certeine vnderstanding by word off mouth thē by lettres which if any doubt arise in any word can say nothing to the resoluing off it as yt is alledged it can not tend but to vtter subuersion off the lordes order and to proue that commenly and for the moste part it is better to haue reading then preaching The other is that writing remaineth as if the question were wether canonicall writing off the scriptures were better then preaching and not whether there be more fruict in bare reading that which is written then preaching vppon yt In this chap. which supposeth reading preaching beside straunge asseuerations and begging of that in controuersie there is nothing sauing that as absurdities are fruictfull this beggetteth other for pressed he shameth not to say that a child off 4. yeare olde is a preacher off the gospell And why not also a popeniay tawght to pronounce some sentences off scripture for the D. reason because preaching 10 Rom. 14 is all publishing off the gospell by externall voice serueth for one as for the other And beside that it is friuolous that off that God speaketh to vs by reading he would conclude that he preacheth to vs as though all speaking were preaching yt is absurd that he saith the scriptures are not preached in respect off him that readeth but in respect of the spirit of God worcking in the hearers For if reading were preaching yt should be preaching although it wrowght to condēnation wheras by the D. all which hearing the word preached profit not are not preached vnto Which as it is a grosse error so it is a shamefull derogation to the ministery off the word worcking mightely not onely to the saluation off the elect but also throwgh their fault to destruction off the reprobate To the places prouing that it is necessarily required in a minister that he should not onely be sufficiently learned but haue also the gift off vtterance he answereth not Towching that the priestes lippes should kepe knowledge and not his papers he answereth that he shall haue it readier in his lippes if he haue yt in his papers which is not to pourpose seing we spake off those which haue yt onely in papers Then he hath a childish cauill that if he reade he must vse his lippes as if the Prophet contented him self if the priestes were able to reade onely and did not note therby the aptnes to teach as by vncircumcised lippes is noted heauines or vnreadines off speache That a Preacher able for vtterance and learning to preach may reade a sermon if he meane priuately is not in question if publikely yt belongeth to the question off Homilies His case off a man pronouncing an other mans sermon withowt booke beside the fondnes is from the cawse That the reading of Ieremies and Baruchs bookes was preaching becawse the bookes were sermons ys to dreame and not to dispute The 15. 16. verses Rom. 15. make nothing to proue reading preaching but make rather against him in that the Apostle shewing that his writing to them was grownded off Gods calling sowght a more generall word off worcking for the gospell which agreeth to any action the minister doth by reason off his ministery ether in ministring the Sacramentes or otherwise The difference Sainct Paul putteth between his preaching is apparant althowgh the D. hath lost his sight That S. Paul ment he could not personally preach vnto them is his addition corrupting the minde off the Apostle For where shewing that he had great desire to be personally with them form spirit he was not absent he addeth for a cawse that he might preach the D. by this answer drowneth the effect in the cause ād so maketh the Apostle assigne cawses which cawse nothing nor haue any thing to be referred vnto Where I shewe that S. Paul vvriting is no more preaching then his hand or penne he vvrote vvith be his toung lightes or other instrumentes he spake vvith he answereth not for that as he saith it is a iest Where if his cause could speake it woulde complaine that he maketh no more account of it then to esteme her head stroked when it is cracked a sonder for the reason is of the efficient cause seing they can not be the same which can not be made by the same instrumentes To mainteine his ridiculous demaunde was not reading off Deut. preaching he should haue shewed that the reading off yt is rather preaching then reading off Exodus which he doth not Howbeit he concludeth that the reading theroff was preaching becawse the Lord commaunded that the priestes should reade yt that the people might learne to feare God which is as ridiculous For so peinting and grauing off the scriptures is preaching and peinters and grauers which sometimes knowe neuer a lettre off the booke shall be come preachers Considering that the Lord cōmaunded that the lawe should be grauen in the entrance of their land and writtē vpō their cytie gates and howses to this end that the people might learne to feare God c. After he asketh why Iosia should cawse the lawe to be redd if reading had not bene off at great force to perswade as preaching which phrensie belonging to another question is answered before Where he concludeth that for that reading is as effectuall as preaching therfore it is preaching beside the falsehood off the antecedent the conclusion is too bad for if the raine be as effectuall to cawse the fruictes grow as the sonne and meat as effectuall to perserue the life as drincke it followeth not therfore that the raine is the sonne or meat drincke Where vppon Nehem. 8. he would proue reading preaching there is not a word wheron it may be gathered but contrariwise they are manifestly distinguished in that chap. For beside reading there mentioned he setteth forth preaching by all these wordes that the Leuites cavvsed the people to vnderstand the lavv gaue the sense off the lavv cavvsed them to vnderstand the reading And where pag. 91. he saith that the wordes translated off some they gaue the sense signify nothing les thē that there was any exposition ioined with reading bearing him self vppon learners interpreters seing he seeth no further into this then with other mennes eies why should not he haue followed the iudgement off the Geneua translation which he pincheth they being learned men and moe in nombre then as I thincke he can alledge Which I say not to iustify that translation throwghowt or to shut vp the way gainst a better but because it seemeth an vnworthy thing to refuse their iudgement vpon bare autoritie I haue none off his learned men to looke their iudgementes howbeit for that I finde one off the Hebrues so expounding the wordes
generall and proue that no man maie vsurpe that tytle But to cleare that matter in an other place he sheweth that it is to muche to attribute vnto a Kinge the name of the head of the church and that they are blasphemous that gyue hym yt Nowe where he saith here and repeteth p 301. that in respecte off the supreme autoritie which god hath gyuen vnto the magistrate he may be called the head off the church the supreme authoritie ouer the church being onely gyuen vnto Christe yt muste folow that this name onely belongeth to him Where partly in this diuis but more fully pag 301. he saith althowgh in respecte of life and nutriment gyuen and spirituall blessinges powred into the body off the church our Sauiour Christe is onely head yet towching the externall societie and owtward gouernement the magistrate also may be head off the church yt is first to be noted from whom this prouision was browghte hym For as Harding borowed yt off Pighius so the D. pourueiers had it from Harding or frō both For to ouerthrowe this doctrine that Christe alone is head of his church this distinction is browghte that according to the inward influence off grace Christe onely is head but according to the owtward gouernement the being of head is commen with him to others For answer wherunto I referre my self in parte to that I haue written before off the absurde distinction betwene the gouernement off the churche by the mynisterie off men instituted off our Sau. Christ and his spirituall gouernmente For that if there be no head but Christe in respecte of the spiritual gouernemente there is no head but he in respecte of the worde sacramentes and discipline administred by those whom he hath appoincted forasmuch as that is also his spirituall gouernmente And euen in the owtward societie and assemblies off the church where one or two are gathered in his name ether for hearing off the word or for praier or any other church exercise our Sauiour Christe being in the myddeste off them as mediatour muste needes be there as head and if he be there not idle but doinge the office off the head fully yt followeth that euen in the owtwarde societie and meetinges off the church no symple man can be called the head off it Seing that our Sauiour Christe doinge the whole office off the head him selfe alone leaueth nothing to men by doing wheroff they maie obtaine that tytle Wherfore whosoeuer in seeking to profite the churche according to his calling doth any thing to the preseruation off this body he doth yt as an eye an arme an eare or as some other member and not a◠head off it Now to his distinction owt off Andreas who after he confesseth that Christe is onely head as he gouerneth the church with his spirite addeth that for somuche as the church off God being visible is not onely ruled by the word but by sword off the magistrate that there be so many heades off the church as rulers off countries Where firste let it be obserued that he quoteth no place peraduenture leste some ether wordes or circumstance might gyue the answer Then that he enhaunceth his credite whith the tytle off a learned man where for any thing I haue redd and I haue redd his defence off the real presence against Beza yt might well haue bene lefte owte Howbeit both for his corruption in iudgement and otherwise I refer the learned reader to that Vrsinus a learned man hath written against him Wherby he may vnderstand howe this commendation was without discretion onely to serue the present tourne And I beseche yow Sir who is this Vergerius whom Andreas reprehendeth which you haue so nakedly set downe clothing Andrue so gorgiously This is is good reader Petrus Paulus Vergerius with whome whether the other be once to be compared ether for sownd knowledge or innocencie off lyfe I leaue to their iudgemēt which haue redd and knowē them both and withall whether if an argumēt of autoritie be off such weighte as the D. will haue yt he hath by this testimony made a hole in his owne cawse In the distinction yt ys firste to be obserued that as Andrue dissenteth from the truth so he doth from Pighius Harding and the D. for when he opposeth the gouernement by the sword vnto that off the worde making yt off the word a peece off the spirituall gouernement and then saith that there be diuers heades off the church in respecte off gouernement by the sword he gyueth to vnderstand that his Iudgement is that in respecte off the ecclesiasticall mynisterie our Sauiour Christ is onely head Which may yet better appeare in that he saith ther are so many heades as rulers of coūtries and saith not so many heades as bishops off churches And if this be not his minde yt will stand the D. vppon to bringe owt other wordes to declare yt Now Pigh Hard. and the D. vppon the bare word off Athanasius will haue heades in respecte off the ecclesiasticall gouernement they one ouer all churches he one in euery diocese Wherin the reader may see that yf this rottē seede take rooting howsoeuer the Princes honor be pretended the fruiete perteineth also to the bishops In which distinctiō off bishop head off his but not of the whole church albeit the D. woulde gladly seme to slip from the Papistes yet they will not so parte with him For beside that I haue shewed how the godly learned vppon that our Sau. Christ is head cōclude as well against heades of particular churches as against one head off the vniuersall this Iudgement off his is the deuinitie off two Popishe Councels Constance and Basile Where the Bishops those especially before partners in this robberie off our Sauiour Christ with the man off Rome and namely he off Antyoche displeased that the Pope alone should haue all that boutye to make Roume for them selues shut his headship vp in the compas off his owne countrie opening their eyes to so muche trwth as serued their owne tournes But to come to the poinct off Andrues distinction let yt be consydered fyrst that our Sauiour Christ ys in one respecte creator and preseruer of man kinde in another redemer ād vpholdder of his church For he created once ād preserueth daily as God coequal with his Father ād holy spirite but he both redemed once and daily gathereth his church as mediatour of god and man in which respect euen yet in his infynite glory he enioyeth he is an shall be vnder his father and holy goste vntill hauing put downe all rule and power he shall render the kingdome to his Father Secondly yt ys to be considered that as our Sauiour Christe doth thes in dyners respectes so he doth them by diuers means To wyt that as God symply he hath ordeined certein means to serue his prouidence in the perseruation of man kynde so as God and man he hathe ordeined other certein for the
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
Therfore this difference betwene the Archbishop and Pope being accidentall and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we haue to enquire is vnstilfully alledged Yet it is the hole wheruÌ„to the Ans is coÌ„pelled diuers times to haue his recourse That the ministerie is a matter of saluacioÌ„ that tharchbishop is a new ministerie that it is absurd here to flie to thexample off the Magistrate where the questioÌ„ is what Ecclesiasticall offices are profitable is before declared The Ans conclusion off my replie touching the place to the Ephes is euill shut vp For where he saith that tharchbishoprick may stand becawse that place reckening vp onely the ministeries of the word that is a ministerie off order and policie how could he forget that tharchbishop medleth with the ministerie of the word and therfore it was necessarie to be here mentioned if the Apostle had gyuen hym any place in the church If he will say that he hath not onely the mynisterie off the word but off order also the answer is at hand that so had both the Apostles by his owne confession and all the rest off those ministeries as appeareth afterward Whether therfore tharchbishop be considered in his ministerie of the word or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement or as one of the most principall ministeries of the church ether he hath his place here to the Ephes or not aâ— all For both all ministeries off the word to speak as the D. separate from gouernement and order and all occupied in the word and gouernement ioyntly and all principall ministeries of off the church are here reckened vp Euery one then off thes three cawses being sufficient to haue made mention of tharchbishop all together put a necessitie vpon the Apostle to speake off him if he had bene worth the speaking off Where he thincketh there was no cause to speake off him for that he differeth not from a bishop in ministerie off the word but in order and gouernement onely and that therfore yt is no diuers ministerie from the bishops office by the same reason I may say that S. Paul needed not to haue mentioned Pastors c. For the Pastors preached the word as the Apostles But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe make the ministerie of Apostles and pastors diuers that th one hath charge off one onely church thother off aâ—ryâ— must follow that the ministerie off an archbishop is diuers from the bishops th one watching ouer a whole prouince thother ouer a diocese onely Yea it is plaine off that spoken before off the Archbishops new ministerie that there are as many or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a bishop then any of thes ministeries S. Paul reckeneth vp differ one from an other His answer to the place off the Corinth consisteth in that he would proue that the diuision off offices there is perfect Wherin it it easie to see what extremitie my reply which he calleth a vaine shift draue him vnto and how he could not couer his nakednes here but with discouering an other place as vnsemely as this For amongest his answers to the place off the Ephes wherby he would proue that that diuision is not perfect this was one in the latin pamphlet that to the Corinth S. Paul speaketh off Apostles Prophetes and Doctors leauing owt Euangelistes and Pastors and now to auoide my replie to that answer he saith cleane contrarie that the Apostle made there a perfect diuisioÌ„ of offices But let vs see whether this chauÌ„ge be for the better Where he saith Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth then to the Ephes he is deceiued For euen by his owne confession he speaking there of preaching offices onely not off all offices off the church and there being none other preaching offices but those which he reckeneth vp yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuision In the place to the Corinth that there is no perfect diuision although the D. wordes he chaunged yet his reason he vsed standeth still that the Euangelist is not there mentioned nor Pastor which were offices in the church Beside that he kepeth in this refutatioÌ„ his ould wont which is to cut the knot and not to lose yt For he bringeth reasons of his to proue the perfectioÌ„ of the diuision withowt answering mine And yet his be such as are vnwothy answer For in the first beside that yt is vntrue that the Apostle made a perfect diuision of giftes in the church if he had yet it followeth not that he made the same in offices especially wheÌ„ he wil needs separate offices from giftes The second reason therfore yt is a perfect diuision because there is added first second third is as simple as the first for those wordes are not put there to note the noÌ„bre of offices but to declare which is highest in degree and which next c. aÌ„d if they did yet I neuer could yet read that they were notes off a perfect diuision His third because yt hath moe members then that in the Ephesâ— I think he vnderstandeth by this tyme what strenght yt hath if he remember that which I answered that the Apostles meaning to the Eph. was not to deuide the offices of the church in generall but those onely which handle the word onles par aduenture he thinck that he maketh a fuller partition which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers then which denideth one into fiue Martyrs autoritie doth not help him For he saith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly or how many it hath which he should haue saide to help him but onely that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath which he doth that reherseth some Whether a bishop be conteined vnder a Pastor or rather a Pastor vnder a bishop shall not now be the question But yow are inconstant in all yowr waies and haue one senteÌ„ce standing an other sitting For albeit I should agree with yow that a bishop is a Pastor yet yow doo not agree with yowr self For otherwere in stretching owt the Bishops armes yow haue thes wordes a bishop is both superior in office and giftes vnto a Pastor If he be so he can not be conteined vnder him for that vvhich conteineth an other thing hath at the least all in it self which the conteined hath Againe if I graunt a bishop conteined vnder the Pastor S. Paul speaketh of yet I will not graunt that the bishop yow meane which hauing so many churches to rule hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a bishop is conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor For seing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes bishop proued before and after not to be of the institutioÌ„ of God but off man yt can not be that our kinde of bishop shoulde be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor Wheruppon also followeth that tharchbishop which hath a necessarie relation to that kinde off bishop and can not
the places harde by and lykewise a deacon three which together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare and determine the causes in debate Now if for euery accusation of a bishop there were assembled 12. bishops at the least and that when the matter required haste for euerie accusation of an elder six and off a Deacon three beside their owne bishop and that those might be taken in places harde by all men maye vnderstande that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas which might be assembled with suche commoditie For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then which is nowe how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre with so greate charges with suche longe absence from their churches with suche delaie and suspence off the purgation off them whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God and edification of their churches Herof yt may easely be seene that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop rained not onely vpon greate cities and greate townes but euen ouer litle borowghes and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde And althowghe there be diuerse cawses why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention of the bishopes of vplandishe townes as that in those tymes of persequution a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them which had a bishop and for that the stories for the moste parte keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops which by godly policie off the churche were placed in the moste peopled townes yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers which are expressedly called bishops off small townes or villages As off one Zorâ—cus Bishop of the village of Coman of Mares Bishop of a small towne called Dolicha of Asclepius Bishop of a small towne in Africa and of others vvhich partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome and partly shall be shewed God willing in discouse off Cyprians testimonies I leaue also to speake of Gregorie bishop of a small cytie called Nazâ—anzum of an other which was priest of the Castle Cumane that is Bishop both which are as well forbidden as to haue a bishop in a village I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren wheroff albeit yt is moste certein that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord who angrie with his churche sente suche a dearthe yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne were partly vnaduised partly proceeding off ambicion and that not alwaies after one sorte but taking encrease and gathering strenght with the time So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe and restraincte in the ende brake owte and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced In the Africane Councell yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour whersoeuer aÌ„d in what diocese soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche that those proselytes and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne and the Councell there confessethe that they deserued so to haue Wherupon yt folowethe that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted so manie Bishops at the leaste there might be in one onely diocese And if this were a good lawe and equall as the Councell confessethe what cause can be assigned why yt shoulde be taken awaie as appeareth yt vvas afterward In the second Councell of Carthage yt vvas decreed that those dioceses which had no bishops should haue none aÌ„d those which had should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese that the people desyring a Bishop if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto might haue another bishop Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese where there had bene none yt is apparaÌ„te that their dioceses were not the tweÌ„tith parte so large as ours For is there any likelihoode consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles as it is with vs And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy the nomber of the faithfull encreasing there might be at the instance off the churches and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined yt vttereth the cause vvhy diuerse parishes rounde abowte vvere the diocese of one bishop namely for that here and there in this aÌ„d that towne there vvas scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell were hable to make one sufficiente congregatioÌ„ to maintein the ministrie And therfore ordeined that wheÌ„ the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places then also counsell might be taken off moe Bishops Wherupon vve may gather this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop vvhether he vvoulde haue any moe Bishops throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe that the nombre off Christians increasing they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops but ordeining them Elders and Deacons together with the name off the Bishop reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie and gouernement to other belongyng And this ys that vvhich that excellent Martir of God William Tindall shortly noted vvhen the multitude off Christians encreased and the church vvas endovved vvith greate possessioÌ„s the bishops made theÌ„ substitutes vvhich they called preistes and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no in his diocese maie appeare by this shameful ambition vvhich euen theÌ„ beganne to shew yt selfe For so far vvas yt that they vvoulde departe vvith any already gotten that they assaied to encroche and sometimes by stronge hande vpon the boundes off others as appeareth by the manifolde debates which they had one with another aboute their precinctes testified in the booke of Councells Another cause off this dearthe was an order taken amongest theÌ„ that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes and other straungers from the churches as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche so he enioyed them Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese but also to other dioceses if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe which what a greate
but vpon gainsaying And in that Boniface which wrote vnto Zachary had appointed those three bishops in small parishes and townes all vnderstand that yt was no new thing then to haue bishops in such places But because he closethe his eyes and will not see thinges set before him at leaste let him grope them The false Damasus and verie Antichriste writing of this matter inueiethe vehemently againste the appointinge off Bishops in villages which he calleth countrey bishops And yt appeareth plainly in that Epistle that they had the selfe same autoritie in all thinges which citie Bishops had There he saith also that yt was forbidden that there shoulde be any bishop ether in small cytie or in village or Castell leste the name and autoritie of a bishop should waxe vile And therfore commaundeth that those bishops off villages being disgraded off their Bishoprickes shoulde be throwne downe to the order off preisthoode Heere the D. maie vnderstande that euen in the time off Antichriste this order off euerie churche hauing her bishop was not so abolished but that there were remnantes off it in diuers places and some which mainteined the libertie wherin God had sed them againste that owtrage off Satan who becawse he woulde make off bishops yong Princes and saw that euerie parishe was not hable to mainteine that pompe wente abowte with robberie off the reste to lifte vp the heade off one Heroff yt may be seene what cawse the D. hathe to charge me with the falsifiyng of the Popes wordes and how his habilite to defende the Popes decree doothe not answer his desire As for the reasons I browght to proue that the placingâ— off bishops in villages and small cyties coulde no more bringe them in contempte then the shininge of the sonne or falling off the raine in villages as vvell as in cyties breedeth contempte off those benefites or the name or autoritie of father gyuen to poore men as vvell as riche maketh that ordinance off God nothing set by he answereth not a worde Where I further alledged the foresight and wisdome of God which shoulde receiue a greate wound if in instituting for euery churche a Bishop he shoulde not haue foreseen this inconuenience which the Ans vppon the Popes autoritie meinteineth he askethe when and where I haue I truste shewed him now bothe althowghe he if he had ether vnderstoode or remembred what he wrote before twise or thrise when with Ierome he propoundeth vnto vs that Bishop and elder were all one by Gods worde he should not haue falleÌ„ into this extreme boldenes of denying euery thing which is enemie vnto his vnaduised assertions For yf yt be the institution off God that euerie churche shoulde haue a teaching elder and that elder according to Ieromes saying alowed off him were a bishop yt muste needes folowe that to haue a bishop in euerie churche ys the institution of god And because the D. boweth so casely vnder the autoritie of men that he estemeth it the beste proofe let him vnderstande that this was the iudgemeÌ„t off twoo of the moste famous meÌ„ which our lande browght forth thes manie yeares And the same also executed for the testimonie off the truth off god wheroff one of them amongest other thinges suffred also for this cause nowe in hande a The sixte Article which M. Barnes was condemned for is this I vvill neuer belieue nor can neuer belieue that one man maie by the lavve off God be bishop off tvvoo or three cyties yea off an vvhole contrey for that yt is contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul vvhich vvriting vnto Titus commaundeth that he should ordeine a bishop in euery tovvne prouing that by the worde elder the Apostell meaneth a bishop M. Hooper shewing that one man may not haue two lyuinges addeth but this is clavv me and I vvill clavv the. If the bishops permitted not their priestes to haue 2. benefices it may fortune the priestes vvould likevvise say the bishop should be bishop but of one citie And in deed so it should be and till magistrates bring theÌ„ to that point it shal he as possible to heare a bishop vvade godly and symply thorovvgh the scripture in all case off religioÌ„ as to driue a camell thorovvgh the eie of a nedle A great pitie it is to see hovv far the office off a bishop is degenerated from the originall in the scripture It vvas not so in the beginning vvhen bishops vvere at the best as the Epistle to Tite testifieth that vvilled him to ordeine in euerie citie of Crete a bishop And in case there vvere such loue in them novv as vvas then tovvardes the people they vvould say them selues there vvere more to doo for the best off them in one cytie then he could doo They knovv the primitiue church had no such bishops vntill the time off Siluester the first c. Off thes thinges partly and partly of that which shall be hereafter God willing spoken I leaue yt to be esteemed off the indifferente reader with how small ether knowledge or conscience the D. hathe affirmed that yt can nether be shewed by scripture nor confirmed by anie ecclesiasticall writer or practise off the primitiue churche that ether euery churche shoulde haue her bishop or that there should be bishops in villages and small Cyties Thother off the two questions remaineth whether yt can be shewed by scripture and by examples off the primatiue churche â–ª that there were in one churche moe bishops then one which we might in parte haue bene eased off if the answ hauing fallen owte with the trwth were not likewise falleÌ„ owte with him selfe For he approuing off the testimonie off Ierome which affirmeth elders and Bishops all one and that the elders off a churche chose one amoÌ„geste them which onely kepte the name of bishop dothe withall necessarily affirme that before the time that this ordinance was established there were diuers bishops in one church And in saying the word bishop is not commenly vsed but for him that in degree is aboue the rest he at vnawares confesseth that there were diuers bishops in some churches althowgh not commenly But becawse he hath a facultie in denying and affirming withowte shewing any reason and that his worde is no bonde to tie him with all when yt maketh againste him some thinge also muste be spoken towching this matter And seing I haue shewed that he is by S. Paules determination a Bishop which is apâ—e to teache and to exhorte to conuince false doctrine and reproue corrupte maners and that the Ans can not denie but one suche alwaies is not sufficiente for some churches especially where the commoditie of assemblies is so good that euery daie the worde off good ys to be preached yt can not be denied but that there bothe maie and owght to be moe bishops in a churche muche more in a cytie then one And that this was the institution off God it appearethe by the practise of the churches in
off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell saithe in this sorte but because our prouince is spred forthe larger and hathe bothe Numidia ād Mauritania ioyning he saith not my prouince but our prouince which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled as the course off the epistle declareth Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop nether yet off two Mauritanias as the D. saieth but off one onely Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this was trowbled and from whence soeuer he haue yt Eusebius is off more credite in that matter Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion shutteth him with in the precinctes of Carthage saying he vvas bishop of the parish vvhich vvas in Carthage And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa aboute 150. yares after when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces and this weede of Ambitiō had spred yt self much further in the churche In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage had not him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania or Numidia for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea so that contrary to the D. interpretacion men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage but Afrike Spaine and almoste the whole easte partes yt is to be obserued that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred and lōgest armes at the laste he hathe met with one which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence Why hath he cut of the feet off yt why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes Because I haue not the booke I will set it downe as the bishop of Salisbury hath doone Cyprian vvas a bishop the mightiest and noblest off all bishops For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage and Afrike vvhich vntill this daie is famous off him and by his meanes but ouer all the vveast and in a manner ouer all the East likevvise ouer bothe Northe and Southe Thus appeareth he hath in this place lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde and for that the Bishop turneth vveast he turneth Spaine where if he cōplaine of the bishops translatiō althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason seing Hesperia is opposed vnto the East yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey yt is like to note Italy For so Ierome writeth that they vsed in times paste to call Hesperiam Italy especially whē it ys vttered simply withowt addyng vtter most nowe all maie vnderstād that Gregories meaning was not that Cyprian vvas ruler off all churches in the worlde in that sense the D. meaneth and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world but that he was famous amongest all and sowght vnto for coūsaile frō all partes Wherby appeareth that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste owte off their certeine congregacions was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion purchased by opiniō of singular learninge and godlines wherby others willingly woulde bothe aske and folowe their aduise in gouernement off their churches And if the D. vvil haue Cyprian archbishop and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince to haue peereles autoritie withowt controlemēt of any other Archbishop what off the Prouince of Italy ascribed vnto Cornelius what off that wherby he saithe none owghte to goe ouer sea for triall off cawses for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop for a churche a Prouince for the particular place where the quarell riseth all that circuite which is not parted by sea yet this one assertion off his that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte VVeaste Northe and Sowthe ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke hathe swallowed vp all the rest and made them all but Suffraganes and by this reckening not onely men must passe the sea but manie seas to haue ende off their cawses Laste off all iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage considering they are in the same and felowlike degree Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe in this cause and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop he will be deliuered off a Pope and a Pope off the largest cyse and longest laste he must be compelled whether he will or no to expounde this worde gouerned by consailed or excelled or some other worde as kolde and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane or archbishop Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane I haue shewed He saithe I forget my selfe which call him in one place metropolitā they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with For he might haue remembred that I said that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse or helpe off his I passe the nexte diu hauing nothing but importunate and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him that Cyprian was Metropolitane that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop that I gyue the Papistes aduantage in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope as an archbishop that is to saie nothing for ether Vnto the nexte I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer that writers passe by the title off archbishops sauing that it is to be noted that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops here to gyue some coulor vnto his answer he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all but to manie bishops c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe I referre yt to the reader That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops besides the testimonies I alledged before may be seene
vttered off him in that Councell where an error was decreed wherof hs was cheif autor Where he might with as good right reiect all that euer Cypriā wrote For albeit this were spokē in that Councell yet yt no more perteineth nor hathe no more acquaintance with that error then this that we are iustified by faithe alone Yf he woulde conclude that Cyprians autoritie is no sufficiente proofe considering that being a man he might erre in this pointe as he did in another it is that we willingly graunte and therfore call and crie vpon the D. as loude as we can that the whole cause may be tried by the scripture from which he flieth as Darckenes before the face off the light His thirde is by thes wordes none taketh on hym to be the bishop off bishops he mente that one bishop shoulde not tyrannically rule ouer another which is vntrew for Cypr. addeth that as an either thinge likewise forbidden So that where he saith none dothe ether make him selfe bishop off bishops or bynde his fellovves by tyrannicall feare the D. off twoo sentences maketh one and Cyprians or he expoundethe that is to say But doeth he not see how still he ministreth weapons vnto the Papistes by this friuolous answer for vnto the godly learned writers alledging this place to proue that the bishops off Rome haue no autoritie ouer other bishops the Papistes may answer with the D. that all that is mente off tyrannicall autoritie Fouthly he saith thes wordes Euery bishop hathe ftee libertie and free iudgment off his ovvne povver are not mente off iurisdiction but of iudgement and opinion As if there were les daunger in letting a bishop holde what opinion he thincketh good withowt controlement of an other bishop then in letting him gouerne his churche as him semeth best withowte the same controlement So that herin the D. flying from the smoke falleth into the fire The vanitie off which answer appeareth also by that in an other place where he saith there is but one bishopricke vvheroff euery bishop holdeth one part vvholy fully in all respectes Likewise in an other place he saith he holdeth his bishoprick off Christ vvho is the cheif bishop And most plainly it is confuted by that I haue alledged owt off Cyprian Where in expresse wordes he referreth this freedome off power which euery Bishop hath not as the D. to the bishops opinion but vnto the gouernement off his church Where for confirmacion off thes answers he saith otherwise a bishop should be exempted from all controlement off Synodes and other as well as of archbishops the answer is easy For althowgh Cyprian say no one Bishop can be iudged off an other bishop yet he denieth not but he may be iudged off the church And althowgh no one bishop haue autoritie ouer him yet a Councell off bishops may correct him And that this is one off those iudgementes off Christ Cyprian ment off and that in those wordes he doth not reserue the iudgement off the bishop offending vnto the day of the general iudgemēt may be shewed by that he saith Christ set thē bishops in their charges As therfore Cyprian calleth the placing off a bishop in his charge by the churche by the elders theroff and the next bishops the placing of Christ so he meaneth that iudgement giuen against a bishop offending by the church and Synodes is the iudgement of Christ That owt off Cyprian wherin the weight off the argument lyeth euery Bishop muste rule his ovvne flock him self as he that shall make account off his deed vnto the Lord he passeth by After to the wordes off Cyprian that nether he nor his fellovves vsed compulsion tovvardes any appointed any lavv to any seing that euery one set ouer the church hathe in gouernement theroff free disposition of his owne will werof he shall gyue accoumpte vnto the lorde he saith I left owte that which gyueth the solution and therupō according to his coustome picketh a quarell to translate the whole sentence Yet nether sheweth one word nor can shew lefte owte to make for him against me Onely he saithe vndowtedly Cyprian in saing he would not deale with other bishops c. meaneth those churches and bishops which he had nothing to doo with which is very straunge seing he hath before made him archbishop almost ouerall the world After he saith he would not haue suffered them if they had bene off his owne charge which is a grosse begging off that in question for yt is debated whether he had any bishops vnder his charge And what manner off interpretacion is this vve do violence to none nor appointe lavves to none that is to none in other Prouinces and euery bishop hathe povver of the gouernment of of his ovvne churche that is euery bishop owte off Cyprians prouince what a kold saying should this be that nether he nor any of his fellowes vsed violence towardes bishops off other Prouinces With whom they hauing so small intercommuning could scarce vse violence if they would Or to say they appointed no lawes to vvhom they had no coulor to gyue any And as this interprepretacion hauing lien in the Ans rack is pulled owt of all the ioyntes so that it is vtterly false may appeare by that before alledged owt off the Councell off Carthage Where wordes of like effect are vttered by Cyprian vnto the bishops off the same Prouince he was of Last of all becawse I may not haue that credite which the Ans to vnderstand this place off Cyprian yet I trust he vvill belieue Musculus Who of this place and others concludeth that vvhen Cyprian vvrote he did neuer so much as think off the povver off Patriarches off Metropolitanes off the bishop off Rome but esteemed that all bishops ovvght to haue like care and povver euery one in his ovvne church So beside this testimonie that Cyprians priest was nether Patriarch nor Metropolitane he hathe also that he was bishop of one church which is that I haue affirmed For the autoritie vvhich the archbishops and bishops haue ▪ there is an other place yt is sufficient here to shew that they had no iurisdiction one ouer an other in Cyprians times That owt off Cyprian towching ministers sacrificing is before answered To Cyprian saying the vnitie off the church is interteined by consent off bishops one vvith an other the D. answereth they agree neuer the worse by hauing a superior aboue them Albeit they agree neuer the worse yet if they agree neuer the better he owght as an vnprofitable tree which occupieth place in the lordes orchard be rooted owt Althowgh it shal God willing appeare that the Archbishops office is the knife which cut the cordes off vnitie which both was and otherwise might haue bene mainteined amongest the bishops The first reason why tharchbishop is necessarie is because there may be one to assemble them together As thowgh that was not doon before that office was
Callis Deep Ireland and Flaunders then at Canterbury Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome is much easier seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome and Carthage As appeareth by that Cato to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage held ovvt a fig saying that vvas but the third day sithēs that fig grevv in Carthage Therfore Cyprians argument by his interpretacion is not worth a shoe buckle to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter then from one end of a Prouince to an other Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth that is one to cōteine 160. bishoprickes belike such as ours Where he saith this reason may serue as well againest VVestminster hall leauing that as impertinent vnto this question it shall be sufficiēt to answer that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes houldē almost in euery village he owght to vnderstand that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill matters of consciēce more then of the pourse the title of heauēly inheritance more then the earthly of the life to come then of this So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme were as he saith necessary a◠Westminster yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall In all thes places which the Ans hath browght owt off Cyprian Eusebius Socrates it is manifest that one bishop is opposed vnto heretick bishops Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged that by one bishop is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre but off truth in religion And that there be no doubt hereof let Cyprians wordes be considered That there should be an other altar appointed and a nevv priesthood besides one altar and one priesthood it can not be VVhatsoeuer he be vvhich gathereth īn an other place scattereth yt is adulterous yt is vvicked yt is sacriledge vvhatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute vvherby the ordinance off God is broken Now except the Ans will say it is wicked against the word of God adulterous to haue two bishops in one citie yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie And what if it be shewed that not onely in Cyprians time but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops Augustine speaking of the Donatistes which seperated them selues from the church for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin saith Hovv did then Cyprian and other the Lordes corne in that church meaning Carthage of vnitie eate the Lordes breade and drink his cup not vvith the people onely or commen sort off the Clergie but vvith the bishops themselues vvhich vvere couetous ketchers and vvhich shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be with vvhom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the lord were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage If they were it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian as the Ans would beare his reader in hand And althowgh the D. be not able to proue that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie before appeared now appeareth what a vaine crack it was that all the godliest and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop when not one can be found to testifie it Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces as writers doo flatly affirme in so much that the bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort For euery bishop saith Cyprian vvithin his ovvne dioces is the priest of God c then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off being the highest and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie which is aboue a bishop And as the Answ to make Cyprians place serue his turne was compelled to expound Priest archbishop church Prouince so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies he must expound dioces Prouince and Bishop archbishop And what man̄er of proofe is this to cōclude the greater by the lesse yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops it had bene more probable but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops and off dominion ouer a dioces as he pretendeth to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince is far owt off square The next is answered in the beginning The first place is that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian saith confusion and sectes rise in a Prouince or dioces vvhere the Bishops autoritie c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop As if his wordes may not well be taken that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt because the bishops autoritie which be therī is dispised For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth expound Cyprians place off an archbishop if he had in this place ment an archbishop it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince as he doth the bishop with his dioces He asketh me what I call him that hath gouernement off a Prouince I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop which hath gouernement off a Prouince doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ▪ infer an Archbishop If he proue an Archbishop and Prouince relatiues so that a man can not name the one but he muste vnderstand the other he saith some thing Ad also that the Ans dealeth vnfaithfully in this place For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian and of a place off Honorius Emperour he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes vvithin a prouince an archbishop yet yt were easie to answer that the bishop put in those wordes in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour and not in respect off Cyprians Considering that within a dousen lines after he affirmeth that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off thautoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices and by vvhole Brotherhood a companie vvithin a seuerall dioces For that off M. Novvell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there is not vpon this place of Cyprian but of an other I haue shewed in the former booke that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif
base citie equall vvith the reste referreth that to the deacons vvhich in some places vvere preferred before the elders who seeth not but that speaking against the truthe he was so amazed that wordes comminge from him reason stickethe yet in his penne For what reason is there that Ierome shoulde therfore saie the bishop off Eugubium vvas equall vnto the Bishop off Rome notvvithstanding the bishop off Rome vvere his superior because the deacon vvas preferred in Rome before the elder What giue is here to ioyne thes together or what cawse was there that Ierome shoulde speake basely off the metropolitanes autoritie ouer the bishop because the deacon was preferred before the elder ys there anie reason that because the deacon did iniurie vnto the elder therfore Ierome shoulde speake sparingly of the metropolitane â—nd doo him iniurie also moreouer if this was the occasion why he spake so off a bishop because certeine deacons were preferred before the elders considering that that coustome was onely at Rome as Ierome him self declareth why should he make the bishop off Tanais a small towne in Egypte equall with the bishop off Alexandria the metropolitane citie there and the bishop Rhegium equall with the bishop off Constantinople For seing that mischeif off the preferment off Deacons before the elders was not in other places then in Rome there was no cause why he should speake thus off theÌ„ if that had bene the cause which Erasmus alledgeth Where he addeth vvhen Ierome saith the bishops and elders vvere equall that is to be vnderstanded that the elder vvas equall vvith the bishop in that they vvere bothe preferred vnto the deacon I meruaile the Ans is not ashamed to alledge that saying without all colour off truthe For I haue alledged diuers other places owte off Ierome where he speaking absolutely withoute respecte off any deacon affirmeth the bishop and elder all one in the beginning And what a ridiculous disputacion doth he make Ierome to hould For it is all one as if a maÌ„ after longe discourse to proue LondeÌ„ and Yorke equall in the ende shoulde conclude that Yorke were equall with London because they be bothe greater then Nuington Now let the reader iudge what vnworthie outcries the D. vseth bothe before and after off guilful dealing and shifting the place of Ierome therby to drowne the voice of the trwthe and whether I haue interpreted it according to his naturall meaning and as other godlie and learned haue doone and whether he contrarily to mainteine his firste saying hath vsed shiftes partely popishe ouerthrowinge the answers off those which haue trauailed againste popery aswell as mine partely fonde and childishe which he woulde beare owt with Erasmus autoritie withowt any weight off reason Likewise how he after dallieth in his longe translation and repetition of Ierome to no purpose That a doctor differeth from a pastor hathe bene shewed that he is inferior vnto him appeareth not onely because the Apostle placeth him after where he dothe moste exactly set downe the order off preaching ministers but also that the giftes required for that office are as hathe bene shewed lesse wherunto may be added the practise off the elder churches which estemed the doctor alwaies vnder him whom they called bishop or Pastor That the elder which gouerneth onely is inferior to the Doctor appeareth bothe in that his giftes be fewer and that the Apostel giueth more honour to him then to the elder That Deacons are vnder those elders for that their charge is to serue the tables onely and therfore but a part off the churche where the elders gouernemeÌ„t is ouer the whole Likewise for that the deacons charge being in thinges perteining to the nourishement off the body muste gyue place to that off the elders whose watche is ouer the sowles Al which the ministery off the Doctor onely excepted which is shut vp commoÌ„ly in the bishop is confirmed by continuall practise off the churche which vppon all occasions off speaking off this ministerie placeth the bishop before the elder and the elder before the deacon and precisely the foresaid Ignarius sheweth that the deacon is vnder the elder thelder vnder the bishop where that thelder which onely gouerneth and not onely he which teacheth is vnderstanded at which hole the D. would creepe out shall be after in proper place declared So appeareth that order in the ministery and diuersitie off degrees are defined off by the word of God and that euen in the Ecclesiasticall ministery ther is inequalitie althowgh all pastors be equall amongeste them selues and withall that order standeth withowt the archbishop or any other deuised ministery Chrysost browght by me is shamfully corrupted and the corruption opened in the former diuis his allegations there owght to be rulers in the church and order to punishe faultes so erksomly repeted are Idle yt being confessed and withall shewed that there is none off those but are doone withowt his ether bishop or Archbishop where hauing no reason he falleth to exhortacion that I would not stand in my conceite but thincke the gouernement off his bishop better then that laid forth by vs if he can compound with the word of God with the reformed churches Apostolical and present with the purest writers ould and newe I with my conceites as he speeaketh will be ready to hould tharchbishops stirup That he affirmeth the forme off gouernement wherin one is aboue all necessary in our commen wealthe althowgh I haue shewed that I greatly allow of it yet that yt is necessary and that the Prince and ParlemeÌ„t can not vpon occasion alter yt especially without breache off the lawe off God which onely maketh the necessitie vve speake of ys an vntrwth apparant to all that haue euer tasted off holy or humane letters And althowghe yt semeth he hath couenanted vvith him self to speake all he supposeth may please yet his knowledge answering not his wâ—ll he is found here to abridge the authoritie off the ciuile powre which he thowght to haue stretched owt and to binde it to that which the lord lefte at the libertie theroff Where he saithe the externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrat muste be according to the kinde and forme of gouernement vsed in the comon wealth it partly hath aÌ„d further God willing shall appeare that the gouernemeÌ„t of the church debated is certein by the vvord off God and vnchangeable As for his bolt so soone shot and with so smal drafte of reason yt is brokeÌ„ with the vvinde off his owne mouth For where he maketh the externall gouernement throwghe owte his whole booke at the pleasure of the Prince which is his principall hould here he teacheth that yt is not in the princes powre onles she will ether put of or deuide her crowne vvith others to put downe the archbishop for the externall gouernement off the church saith he muste be according to the kinde and forme off gouernement off the comon wealth
althowgh yt be not expressed yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoritiâ— â–ª ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge or els he receiued yt off the Apostels But the firste is confessed vntrw therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly in that he and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour to haue made him inferior to the resâ—dâ—w I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte but the D. bancke being discouered I thincke he will chaunge his creditors Where he saith yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes as he coulde not tary for their voices it is ridiculous For I would know first what testimonie of scripture he hath to proue yt doon so soudenly Then who is so sensles as not to vnderstand that the eleuen standing with him could not in a trice ether by voice or finger lifted vp caste that charge off speaking then vpon Peter so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth no time could wante for that matter He saith further Act. the 1 and 15. considered yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste and rule the action and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices much les at euery particular meeting which first is a grosse petition off that in question Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste yet by what ether sentence or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste during his liffe Thirdly to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision let him shew vs how he can proue that S. Peter was cheif in that actioÌ„ of praier where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice likewise in the election of the deacons where the calling together off the disciples the exhortacion vnto them the praier for the Deacons chosen the laying on off handes is as indifferently giuen to all the reaste as to Peter All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste that one was president in the election But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn or Iames or any the reste can not be shewed by one title off scripture yet our D. doth assure vs and as he saith owt off the scripture that Peter was the lodesman Where I shew that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels to take vpoÌ„ him the gouernmeÌ„t is to doo him iniury he answereth he was appointed vnto yt off God and lawfully As if to be appointed off God and lawfully could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him or their electioÌ„ were not the electioÌ„ of god For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe imÌ„ediatly it is that in question wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe But this iudgemeÌ„t offmine hath no ground off scripture or ether learned or auncient autoritie What ground off scripture I haue let the reader iudge off that already and to be alledged in the next diuis For autoritie I haue shewed that Musculus whom he hath made his pillor in this behalfe affirming that Peter vvas in many places the cheife is againste him which saith he was alwaies cheife and for me as giuing therby to vnderstand that this cheiftie varied and was sometimes put vpon other Which is also confirmed by Caluin who in saying the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte that he should speake firste confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels and that he had yt not alwaies Secondly I haue here alledged the Scoliaste that all vvas doone by commen consente Wherto he answereth he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife which is vaine For if all were doone with consente then Peters forespeaking a parte of that which was done was likewise What wil he say to Gratian his good expounder which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe for he confesseth that Peter vvas chosen by the Apostles Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed that this presidentship off Peter vvas not doone imperiously vvith dominion or povvre he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction not of the king him selfe is so Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie and is before confuted For if the vvorde imperiously vvhich I vsed be taken often in euill parte yet may not I beseche yow a Prince doe princelike vvhich is the vvorde the Scoliast vseth may not the higher power doo thinges vvith powre both vvhich the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter But there is in superioritie humilitie If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded I graunte but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes will not suffer to commaund Princelike in thinges lawfull I denie yt He addeth that in rule and autoritie meaning ciuill there is seruitude If he meane to the lorde I graunte and then yt is nothing to the pourpose If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples which onely can haue place here I denie yt for the cause before assigned Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike or with powre for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand saying the king him selfe may not doe so yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically nothing with oppression which two are aswel denied vnto Princes as to bishops then the D. answer would haue serued But when he saith he did nothing princelike nothing by povvr yt is manifest he tawght that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels Where he addeth the Scoliaste saith Peter rose c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels to let pas his translation which in steed off disciples vnderstanded of all the church hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly or during his liffe both which are in controuesie there is not a worde Where in the entrance
the name I driue it to the office If he had bene awake he should haue perceiued that the same reason I assigned why there was primacie in the ministrie off the law vnmeet for ours serueth also to shew why they might haue the title off Princes which ours may not For being the counseil of God in that superioritie to peint forth the chieftie off our Sauiour Christ it was moste conuenient that that shoulde be also written in the names Where I shewed the distribution off the Leuites offices not made off Dauid but by expresse commaundement off God he saith the Bishop hath answered that such negatiue argumentes are but weake So hee bringeth him in answering this reason after his death for in his life it was not propounded Howbeit I haue shewed how the argument holdeth and that the D. shift is Hardinges against the bishop confuted also by the bishop Nether did the bishop condemne here simply negatiue reasons but that negatiue which supposed there owght to be no name of archbishop because there was none vnder the law which he might worthely For I shewed that we meane nothing lesse then to conclude that of the precise gouernement off the churche vnder the law Nether is mine an argument off one example but of cōparison For if Dauid a figure off our S. Christ a man after Gods owne hart a Prophet would not meddle with altering any thing in the ministries withowt Gods word what man is he that shall dare doo yt withowt the same warrant By the Printers small ouersight in putting 1. for 2. the D. hath stumbled vpon a notable place that Iosaphat apointed Leuites c. for deciding the Lordes causes not onely in Ierusalē but for the whole countrey and made Amaries the priest chief ouer them yet no commaundement red of so to doo Which is vntrw For Iosaphat did nothing but commaunded off the Lord by Moses that there be in Ierusalem an Ecclesiasticall Senate wherof the high priest should be chief vnto which they should resort in difficult cases not able to be voided at home For otherwise there was a Senate erected by Iosaphat in euery strong cytie off Iury. The Ievves church vvanted nothing to that perfection vvherin the Lord vvould haue it then and many thinges vvere vndecided by the expresse vvord off God be friendes and doo well agree For both the perfection of yt then as ours now standeth if thinges cōstāt defined vpō there be also generall rules left in his word wherby thinges variable by circumstances may be compassed In the next reason for causes there assigned I will procede no further but leaue it onely to the readers iudgement likewise whether I haue shewed that there were vniuersities amongest Gods people before our S. Christes time and whether the D. if he had wherewithall woulde not contrarie it That Schooles are ciuill in heathenish commen wealthes and Ecclesiasticall in Christian is poore diuinity for so a Schoolemaster teaching Terēce or Professor reading Aristotle is become an Ecclesiasticall officer which hath nether ecclesiasticall election not ordinaciō and is often chosen onely of him that founded the Schoole Yea euery one that reacheth to play on instrumētes wherby mē may be apter to sing the lordes praises is one off the D. Eeclesiasticall officers His reason schooles are like the first nources of the true knowledge off God ys not good For beside that the Fathers howse is the first nource not the schoole by this reason the Father off the howshold that nourtereth his sonnes yea the mother that bringeth vp her dawghters in the feare off God shoulde be ecclesiasticall officers which are onely oeconomicall or house gouernours That bishops can not come in place off thapostles seing they were together with the Apostles is vnanswered That the D. alledgeth off Apostles being bishops is b before answered althowgh it be nothing to purpose for to haue confuted the replie he shoulde haue shewed that all bishops are Apostles where his places be to proue Apostles bishops For it followeth not if all Apostles were bishops that all bishops should be Apostles Where I shew that Archbishops could not come in place off Apostles if they vvere as Erasmus supposeth in their time because they should so preuent the time not vvayting for the Apostels death he answereth where the apostels could not be them selues there they appointed other which is fond For how followeth it that because they appointed others where they could not be them selues therfore they appointed archbishops As if they might not appoint Euangelistes or in euery particular church a Bishop Off Bishops appointed by the Apostles to conclude Archbis I haue shewed how sikly it is likewise how that bishops being the Apostles successours is to be vnderstanded Against my reasons that there is more libertie in instituting thinges in the commen vvealth here is nothing but bare denials In answering generally off all offices in the commen wealth a man not vtterly forsaken off his iudgement muste needes know that I had answered the example off Saul The answer to Chrysostome ys made before Where I shew that Titus presidentship in ordination off bishops implieth not perpetuall gouernement if it did yet not to helpe the archbishop yt is the D. part to shew that iudgement and gouernement be all one seing he imagineth it a staffe off his cawse But the reader may see that allthowgh the D. kepe open shop still yet his wares are vttered long sythens For I besech yow in this defense off the bishops answer besides his owne colewortes and bare repeticion off the Bishops reasons with some yeas and naes what hath he worthy the inuention of the meanest To the next diuis Further then I haue I will not answer the next also I leaue to the readers iudgement THe Councell off Antioch repeted here with the commentary is answered Where I shew no neede vvith vs of archbishops considering that the cause vvhy they vvere ordeined to call Synodes and propoūd the cavvses to be hādled in thē is ceassed vvith vs ▪ the D. in prouing that Emperours called generall Councells shooteth fayre but cometh nothing nere the mark For althowgh some prouinciall Councells were called by the Emperour yet yt is manifest both by the Coūcell of Nice and by this I alledged that decreed there should be 2. prouinciall Councels euery yeare wherin the Metropolitan should giue vvarning to the rest that the bishops might not hould a coūcell withowt his knowledge that the Metropolitan vvith the bishops aduise might hould a Prouinciall Councell It was doen I graunt by consent and sometime by expresse confirmacion off the Godly Princes as in other thinges perteining to the ministery their autoritie assisted when men refused to come to the bishops who were not able to compell them but the order off it vvas with the Bishops This althowgh it were not in the 9. canon yet whē the D. knew it was in that