euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
and his followers These things expressed in your Author you purposely skip vrging the facts dissembling the causes With like boldnesse you falsifie the reason why Valens was afterward punished It is true that he did teare the supplication of Terentius his Captaine requesting one church for the Catholiks at Antioch It is also true that his armie was ouerthrown himselfe terriblie cōsumed in fire by the Gothes but that he was therfore plagued because he would not suffer two faithes to be plāted in Antioch that is your own surmise Nicephorus hath no such circūstāce Neither did Valētiniā profer the like to S. Ambrose You wrest the story frō his right course to serue your purpose but he required Ambrose to diliuer vp a church in Millā to the which he with other Arians would resort To this Ambrose made answere If I be forced from my Church I can not resist I wil neuer consent to yeeld my right Naboth defended his vine with his blood shal I betray the Church of Christ Valentinian shall rather take from me my life than my faith And for ought that I see the constant refusall of this graue learned godly Bishop withstanding to death the toleration of two religions in one Citie doth preiudice your assertiō more than the demand of a rash yong Arian cā further it If you tell vs that your Catholike seruice may be suffered in this Realme notwithstanding both Gods and mans lawes banish hereticall assemblies then you recant the permission of two contrarie faithes in one Realme and resume the case which lieth in question betwixt vs fondly supposing your selues to bee right Catholikes and those that mislike you to be condemned hereticks which is still denied by vs and of your part neuer yet proued Athanasius and Ambrose were Catholikes in deede but not acquainted with your worshipping of Images your adoring the Sacrament your praying in a strange tongue your changing the Lords supper into priuate Masses the rest of your impieties they neuer hard they neuer taught therefore till you can make good proofe that your faith and religion agreeth with theirs they standing by your owne confession for Catholiks you must of consequent as differing from them in manie substantiall points of doctrine be reputed for hereticks Phi. Which only grace of our Prince if we might haue obtained no pleasure profit or preferment that the world beside yeeldeth in any part of Christēdom should haue kept vs out of our deerely beloued countrie so long for whose saluation and so much libertie of conscience as is mentioned we haue often wished diuerse of our persons in perpetuall prison for pledge and warrant of the peaceable and loyall demenor of our brethren the Catholickes and for securitie of the state whereof hir wise Counsellers haue alwayes in such cases greatest regard But neither this durst our Catholike brethren demand in their manifold feares doubts and disgraces at home nor we in such suspition and misconstruction of all our actions could euer with hope attempt it abroade And alas much lesse then the graunt of publike places for exercise of our auntient religion would haue giuen vs infinite contentment of the Catholikes within and haue called home most of them abroad when both sortes would haue counted it a singuler grace during the distresse of these dayes to haue had by permission pardon conniuence their soule rights without which men perish doubtlesse euerlastingly in ther priuate houses and chambers yea in prisons in the closest and least offensiue manner in the world as the Apostles and Confessours did often in the primitiue Church and S. Cyprian testifieth that some did in his time and S. Anastasius him selfe did with the Catholiks in Antioch From all which being by rigour of penall statutes diligent inquirie of temporall Officers watchfulnesse of ministers spies and promotors continually restrained and by them often chased from their houses spoiled of their goods disgraced and discouraged in all their affaires many thousandes yea the farre greater part of hir Maiesties subiects languish awaie in sorrow and sadnesse irremediable Theo. You departed this Countrie neither expecting hir Maiesties leaue nor regarding hir lawes and would you now be fet home with a triumphe iniurious to God infamous to the Land dangerous to the Prince No man asketh of his equall anie thing but that which is honest and safe for the graunter onely the Iesuites step foorth confidently to demaund at their Soueraignes handes no lesse than the manifest breach of Gods law ioyned with the subuersion of hir royal estate For how displeasant is it to God that light should be matched with darknesse and Christ yoked with Antichrist And how pernicious it is for hir Maiesties quiet and happie continuance to suffer him that hath alreadie cursed hir person remoued hir crowne discharged hir subiectes inuaded hir dominiōs whose seedmen and sworne legates ye be to steale from hir the peoples harts vnder a clowde of Catholike religion and fained deuotion the most honorable and wise Sages of this Realme so well conceiue that I gesse you shall haue much to do with all your colourable pretences and eloquent florishes to shadow the clearnesse of their long and grounded experience To salue this sore we shall haue you foorthcomming for warrant that your brethren shall vse loyall and peaceable behauiour Were this contention for earthly not heauenly things and did it concerne not Christs glory but hir graces indemnitie what a toie this is for a few shifting Friers to thinke them selues meete pledges for a Princes securitie Submission to God and your Prince would better become you than this malepert kinde of prescribing on what conditions you will returne what hostages you will giue what lawes you will agnise which couenants whether you rudely purpose them or manerly wish them no Magistrate will receiue least your burning harts and vnquiet heades slide from misliking to murmuring and so to resisting But your brethren are so bashfull at home that they neuer durst demaund any such thing you so fearful abroad that you could not attept it with hope yet are you so bold that you scatter this inuectiue which chargeth the state with many vile and vnciuill outrages and your associates of the North were so brainsicke that putting themselues in armes against their liege Lady they required by solemne proclamation forsooth not only safe-conduct for your Masse but also the releasing of prisoners vanishing of preachers reuersing of laws displacing of coūselers Phi. If the grant of publike places for our seruice seeme much we wil content our selues with chambers prisons Theo. The priuatnes of the place when the fact is il neither acquitteth the doer frō wickednes neither excuseth the permitter from negligence No corner is so secret no prison so close but your impietie there suffred doth offend God infect others confirme your own frowardnes If your religion be good why should it lacke Churches if it be
Suytzerland and other nations which haue displaced your impieties and receiued the Gospell made they this change by the Popes permission and assent of his Bishoppes or else by the Magistrates ayde and assistance The first of these twayne you dare not auouch for God knoweth it went much against your willes then must you confesse the seconde and so those learned Preachers and writers which either at first perswaded and incouraged or at this daie commend and allowe the Princes and Magistrates of those kingdomes and Countries for remouing Antichrist with all his trinckettes out of their dominions and embracing the truth of Christ by publicke authoritie yea for reforming their Churches and setting an order in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre foorth in euerie point as her Highnesse hath done in this Lande all these learned and worthie Diuines I saie consent with vs in this that the Magistrate may lawfullie settle matters of Religion maugre your Romish Idoll and punishe errour and iniquitie by the temporall sworde as well in Bishoppes and Priestes as in others which is the verie summe and effect of this oth that you by no meanes can awaie with Phi. The chiefe makers of it them-selues haue iudged it either damnable or verie daungerous Theo. This no doubt is a vehement accusation if it can bee proued if it bee rashlie surmised then is it as pestilent a slaunder Goe to what reason leadeth you to charge the Nobles of this Land in this sorte Phi. The Barons exempted them-selues from taking this oth by a speciall prouiso Theo. What if they did not exempt them-selues but her Maiestie for the confidence shee reposed in her Nobles and for a difference betweene them and the Commons woulde not haue their othes but accepted their honours as sufficient pledges of their fidelitie will you wrest her Graces good opinion of them to their vtter and open diffamation Or what if some Barons of this Realme skant fullie resolued in that point which then was no wonder made meanes to bee respited for a season till they might be farther instructed which coulde not bee graunted to particular persons by name without infamie to them-selues and iniurie to the rest and for that cause least anie shoulde bee pointed at or distrusted more than others this generall exemption were deuised as most indifferent who but a wrangling Iesuite would inferre that the chiefe doers in heart condemned their own law You demaund how my supposals can be proued That needeth not your â—ile and infamous report is sufficiently confuted if I bring other better occasions that were but possible For where many good reasons of this exemption may bee produced why do you spitefully presume the worst and that vpon a blinde suspition without anie proofe Why doe you rashly coniecture their secret thoughtes which you by no meanes could know why boldly pronounce you that of Christian and godlie States which no sober man will suspect in Turkes and Infidels to wit that they met in Parliament to make wicked and bloodie lawes against their owne consciences And what if I coulde not resolue you whence this exemption first sprang such matters of counsell pertayning little to your vocation and myne yet due respect to their places which we shoulde not despise good triall of their wisedomes which we can not deny common charitie to their persons which wee may not purposelie diffame withhold me Philander and should haue restrained you from this lewd and insolent reproching the consciences of so many noble men worthie Counsellors except you could shew some iust and ineuitable proofe which you can not hauing for your vnhonest surmise no surer ground than this that the Statute doth not compel Barons or any temporal person aboue that degree to take this oth but exempteth them from the penalties of this Act prouided for others of meaner calling and lesse credit with hir Maiestie Phi. To exact this oth of most Officers in the Commonwealth and of euerie one that is preferred in the Vniuersities is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitiful torment of minde remorse and vtter desperation Theo. Why so good Sir Is this consequent that he which keepeth your men from degrees and offices driueth them to desperation Gape your friendes so mightilie for honor and lucre that rather than they will lacke earthly preferments they can not choose but veÌ„ter their soules No law forceth them to seeke for offices and dignities but only debarreth them froÌ„ such vntill they renounce that vsurped authoritie which your holie Father claimeth to commaund correct and depose Princes at his beck If any be tormented in minde for abiuring that vniust title which the Pope pretendeth blame not the Lawes of this Realme which you can not disproue blame the couetous and ambitious humor of those that for worldlie respectes would rush headlong against the perswasion of their heartes blame your odious and erronious whispering in their eares which hath troubled and altered their conceits that were caulmed and setled in quietnesse Such temporising hipocrites if any such be so vexed in minde as you tell vs which I scantly beleeue for ambition and gaine breed in them rather delight than remorse yet were they not thereto driuen by the Magistrate who proposed this law with condition and left them to the choise but their greedinesse first baited them next your secret buzzing in corners disordered their vnconstant affections and now perhaps foolish fantasie doth afflict them without reason of their partes or occasion of ours Phi. But to compell namely all such as you suspect to thinke it vntrue that is wilfullie to force men to desperation Theo. The time was when you and your fellowes cared little for driuing others to desperation The strange tormentes you deuised and practised on thowsandes to compell them from the confession of their faith without any regard of their consciences can witnesse the same mary now the sword is out of your handes you growe so tender and delicate that neither religion nor obedience may be forced on you for feare least you fall to desperation You can shift for your selues I perceiue what euer betide your neighbours but in sadnesse Philander where learned you this diuinitie that subiectes may not be compelled against their wils if they list to pretende conscience least they despayre Shall the peeuish opinion of such as bee frowarde and ignorant or to speake with fauour the priuate perswasion of such as be weake sâ—â—ppe Magistrates from yeelding that seruice which God requireth of them May Princes displease God to please men or breake the least of his preceptes to content neuer so great a multitude No doubt they may not For rulers in making their lawes must depend on the wil of God reuealed in his word not on other mens consciences Idolaters heretickes and schismatikes lacke not an inward and strong perswasion of their sects yet dare you not denie but Christian Princes ought to force their subiectes from idolatrie dissention and heresie
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
did whom you cal a blessed bishop for his labor your selues do worse For you be not cōtent to resist as he did by wilfull departing the Realm you take weapon in hand to depose the Prince terme it iust honorable warre to rebell against a lawfull Magistrate which impiety he did not declare in act though in heart perhaps he did not abhor it But omit that he ment and come to that hee did except you shew what one thing in those ancient lawes of the crowne to which the Archbishop had expresly sworne was repugnant to the word of God or office of a christian Prince we conclude your blessed Bishop and Canterburie Saint to be a shameful defender of wickednesse an open breaker of his oth and a proude impugner of the sword which God hath authorized as the Scripture teacheth And albeit wee like not the maner of his death that priuate men shoulde vse the sword which is deliuered vnto princes yet the cause for which he withstood the king was enormous impious dying in that though his death were violent he could be no martyr Phi. You be loth to haue him a martyr he was so far both frō your opinion in this point religion otherwise but yet he died in the defence of the Catholike church therefore we iustly count him blessed Theo. Hee died not in defence of the church he stoode stifly for the Popes pride and gaine and for the impunitie of malefactours among the Clergie which thinges no way touch the true lawes or liberties of Christes church And therefore you must either proue that clergie men are not subiect to the Princes sword for heinous offences which is most false and that appeales from all places must bee made to the Bishop of Rome which you shall neuer do or else it is euident that Thomas Becket deserued rather the reward of a traytor than the honour of a Martyr these two being the principall causes for which he resisted the king whiles hee liued and was canonized after he was murdered Phi. The church of Rome liked and allowed of his doings though you doe not Theo. She had good reason so to do He gaue his life for the maintenance of her wealth and ease and therefore if shee shoulde not esteeme him shee were to blame but this was no quarell for a christian Bishop to spend his blood in The due correction of offenders by the temporal sworde though they were clergie-men and diligent execution of iustice at home without running to Rome when either part was disposed to vexe the other were lawfull and wholesome preceptes of the kinges of this Realme and so long as the resistance made by the Archbishop against the king was sinfull and seditious consequently the state he stood in damnable though the death he suffered were wrongfull as not proceeding orderly from a magistrate but furiously inflicted by some that were offended to see a Bishop brest a king in so vile a cause Phi. The king himselfe in the end was driuen to order and penance Theo. It was easie for you when not only his neighbours but his owne son rose in armes against him to winne his consent to any thing By warres and inuasions of Realme vpon Realme by defection of subiects from their soueraignes by the rebellion of children against their parentes your cunning hath beene to driue Princes to order and keepe them in awe but that doth not iustifie your vnnaturall and vnchristian tumults to force them to your bent We dispute not whether of late you haue so done but whether of right you may so doe wee see the meanes which Antichrist hath vsed to aduance his kingdom but those we say be neither agreeable to the sacred scriptures nor to the course of Christs church in former ages they be late deuises practises of Popes to exalt themselues aboue the highest the iustice of God preparing that plague for the sinnes of men and dissention of Princes which should haue ioyned togither to succour his truth safegard his church by repressing the Popes pride driuing him to Christian integritie and modesty and would not Wherefore God gaue them ouer into his hands that he should tread on their necks play with their crownes as pleased himselfe and they thinke it some great honor and preferment to kisse his feete hold his bridle whiles he gets to horsebacke Phi. A number of the like examples mo we might recite of our Country of the christian world whereby not only the practise of the church in al ages may be seene but also catholike men warranted that they be no traitors nor hold assertions treasonable false or vndutiful in answering or beleeuing that for heresie or such like notorious wickednesse a Prince otherwise lawfull and annointed may be excommunicated deposed forsaken or resisted by the warrant of holy churches iudgement and censure Theo. From the conquest to King Henrie the eight there was no Prince of this Land deposed by the Pope but only King Iohn Deposition was offered to Philip the fourth and Lewes the twelfth Kinges of Fraunce but they were so farre from taking it that they withdrewe their whole Realme from the Popes obedience and ouerreached your holy Father with his owne practise Philip by the general consent of his Nobles and Bishoppes not onely despised the Popes sentence of depriuation against him but requited him with the like and to tame his pride tooke him prisoner and made him end his life for very griefe of hart within sixe weekes after Thus sayth Platina died Bonifacius hee that went about rather to strike a terrour into Emperours kings Princes and Nations than to plant religion in them and chalenged to giue and take kingdomes and to aduaunce and debase men at his plasure And so saith Gaguinus This ende of his life had Bonifacius the contemner of all men who not remembring the precepts of Christ tooke vpon him to dispose crownes and depriue kinges as hee sawe cause whereas hee supplieth his roome on earth whose kingdō is not of this world nor in earthly things but in heauenly and gate the Popedome by deceit and vngodly meanes and kept his predecessour in prison so long as he liued from whom he wrested that dignity This example you would not alleadge because you sawe the whole Realme of Fraunce stoode with Philip against Bonifacius that the Pope had no right to depose Princes Lewes the twelft in a Councel at Tours had the resolution of al the French Bishops that he might surcease from the Popes obedience and contemne his vniust censures and had not Maximilian somwhat slacked and Iulius in the meane time died the Pope himselfe had bin depriued of his triple crowne in the Councell of Pisa which was indicted by the Prelates of Germanie and Frāce at the instaunce and pursuite of Lodouike The Bishops of Nations assembled and decreed Iulius to be cited Vpon the
determination of the second Nicene councell that images were louingly to be saluted imbraced kissed for so theÌ„selues expound the word AdoratioÌ„ which they vse was lesse pernicious than the former as tending rather to superstitious follie than to that sacrilegious impietie which after raigned in your schooles and yet that decision of theirs was nothing lesse than catholike no councell or father before them for the space of 790. yeares euer decreeing or defending any such thing in the church of God and the Bishops of England Germany France and Spaine forthwith contradicting confuting their presumption as vncatholike and your own schooles reuersing their assertion as voide of all truth for that no reasonlesse creature is capable of reuerence which yet that councell had allowed vnto images Painting of stories in the church is somwhat ancient but neither Apostâ—lik nor catholike It was receiued in some places vpon priuate mens affections as an ornament for their churches but vsed as altogither indifferent that is vrged on no man as a matter of religioÌ„ not only the whole church some huÌ„dreth yeares after Christ which yet was catholike wanted all such pictures but learned and godly Bishops without any suspition of eâ—rour or innouation traduced and repelled such paintings as things either superfluous or dangerous or both What accompt the councel of Eliberis Eusebius Epiphanius and Augustine made of pictures you heard before how Chrysostom Amphilochius Asterius and others esteemed them you may read in your owne books of Councels where the wicked superstitious vpholders of Images refute the CouÌ„cel of Constantinople but with shyfting lying most fit for the cause they tooke in hand To Epiphanius exhorting the Emperour not to bring Images into the Church no nor to tolerate them in priuate howsen adding this reason non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis it is not lawful for a ChristiaÌ„ to staÌ„d gazing with his eies but to haue his mind occupied they answer that this epistle was forged in Epiphanius name and that Epiphanius himself would neuer haue beene so bitter against Images The first is easilie sayd the second is falsely supposed without any proofe this epistle was auouched to be his in a Synod of 330. Bishops not loÌ„g before and Epiphanius is sharper against Images in his epistle to Iohn of HierusaleÌ„ which S. Hierom translated than he was in this which they disliked Eusebius dissuading the Empresse from regarding the painted Image of Christ with these words Quis igitur gloriae eiusmodi dignitatis splendores lucentes fulgurantes effigiare mortuis inanimatis coloribus vmbratili pictura posset who can resemble in deed and lifelesse colours with the shadow of a picture the shyning glittering brightnes of Christes glorie and dignitie is reiected as an heretike and condemned by those that liued many hundred yeres after him and were in credite or learning no way comparable to him Chrysostomes assertion Nos per scripta sanctorum fruimur praesentia non sane corporuÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ sed animaruÌ„ Imagines habentes we by writing enioy the presence of the sainctes not hauing any Images of their bodies but of their mindes Amphilochius protestation Non enim nobis sanctorum corporales vultus in tabulis coloribus effigiare curae est quoniam hijs opus non habemus we haue no care to resemble in colours the bodilie visages of the saincts because we haue no neede of them and Asterius admonition Ne pingas Christum in vestibus sed magis sumptu illo impensis pauperibus subueni paint not Christ in clothes or colours but rather relieue the poore with that expeÌ„ce charge they auoide as spoken by way of comparison not of illation as if meÌ„ in their comparisons did not speake truth affirme both partes as well as in their conclusions This was the skill esming of your late Nicene Synod to crie corruption on others when they themselues were most corrupt and with a shyft of words to decree that as Catholike which was repugnaÌ„t to the plaine precepts of God general iudgement of their forefathers in all ages and places before them For our parts we say with Origen Non igitur fieri id poterit vt Deum quis nouerit simulachris vt supplicet It can not be that a man should knowe God and bow him self to images and with Austen Let it be no Religion of ours to worship the workes of mens hands because the workmen that make them are the better of the twaine whom yet we may not worship The Law of God is so direct forbidding vs to bow to any Image similitude or likenes of any thing that no distinction can help you NotaÌ„da proprietas Deos coli ImagineÌ„ adorari quorum vtruÌ„que seruis Dei non conuenit Note sayth S. Hierom the proprietie of the speach Gods are worshipped Images are adored or bowed vnto whereof neither is fit for the seruants of God If you trust not the ancient fathers one of your own friends will tell you the same Non adorabis neque coles Inter quae distingue Non adorabis scilicet veneratio ne corporis vt inclinando eis vel genuslectendo Non coles scilicet affectione mentis Ad adorandum igitur colendum prohibitur Imagines fiers Thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Which are thus to be distiguished Thou shalt not adore them that is with any bodilie reuerence as bowing or kneeling to them Thou shalt not worship them with any deuotion of mind Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or worshipped Thus your owne fellowes were not so blind but they perceiued the strength and force of Gods commaundement to be such as we defend at this present against you And though he labor to shift off the matter with a rule of S. Augustine that the honor passeth from the signe to the thing signified yet he both missed himself and misconstred his author For S. Augustine in that place putteth a manifest bar against Images and precisely purposely excludeth them out of the number of signes which he meant to treat of when he gaue this rule His wordes are Qui veneratur vtile signum diuinitus institutum cuius vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt He that reuerenceth a profitable signe ordayned by God the force and signification whereof he well vnderstandeth doth not renerence that which he seeth but rather that to which al such signes are to be referred This rule reacheth to no signes but to such as are ordained by Gods own institution which Images are not therefore are cleane without the coÌ„pas of S. Augustines speach Again the veneration here touched is not any worshipping or adoring the creatures which God vseth for signes but a
by their own words to teach more than idle signes or ONLY figures in the Lords supper because together with the name goe the vertâ—es and effects of Christes flesh bloud vnited in manner of a Sacrament to the visible signes And this their assertion neither troubleth our Doctrine nor strengthneth your error Againe these writers may very well say the Sacraments of the Gospell BE NO FIGVRES but TRVETH IT SELFE in that respect as figures bee taken for samplers of things to come Such were the figures of the law which did premonstrat the coÌ„ming of christ in flesh ceased at his coÌ„ming And so the mysteries of the Lords table were not figures of things expected but euidences of the truth there sitting in persoÌ„ the next day to be nailed to the crosse therby to fulfil abolish al figures our sacrameÌ„ts are now not signes of farther promises but memorials of his mercies alredy performed Do this saith christ not in figure of an other truth to come but in remeÌ„brance of me which am come for memorie you know stretcheth only to things past and doone and in this sense the letter may bee safely pressed and your carnall conueyance nothing relieued I find a third cause that might induce them to force the letter in this sort yet no way confirming your grosse supposall which is this When the Greeke church fell at variance for Images they which held that Christ ought not to be figured after the likenes of our bodies amongest other reasons alleadged this for one that the Lord at his Supper for a true and effectuall Image of his incarnation chose the whole substance of bread not any way like the proportion of a man lest it should occasion Idolatry The defenders of Images whose side Damascene tooke pressed with this obiection durst not flee to your annihilation of the substance of bread and adoration of the Sacrament with diuine honour which no doubt they would haue doone with great triumph had those two points of your Doctrine beene then counted catholike but yeelding and by their silence confessing that the substance of bread remayned in the supper and was not adored for so the contrarie part opposed at length for very pure neede came to this shift that the mysticall bread was not ordained to resemble and figure Christs humane nature nor so called by christ at his maundie who said not this is a figure of my body but my body nor a figure of my bloud but my bloud and when Basil and Eustathius were produced affirming the bread and wine to be figures and resemblances of Christs flesh and bloud the Patrones of Images replied that was spoken alwaies before neuer after consecration Wherefore Damascene first beganne this myncing and straining the wordes of Christ not to build on them any reall or corporall conuersion of the bread into the flesh of christ but in fauour of his artifical pictures and Images he could by no meanes abide that the mysteries should after consecration be called Images and figures of Christs bodie The next that traced this path after Damascene was Epiphanius not that auncient and learned Bishoppe of Cyprus but a pratling Deacon in the bastard Councell of Nice whose furious and fanaticall answer to the Councel of Constantinople that made this obiection declareth more tongue than witte more face than learning Christ did not say take ye eat ye the Image of my bodie Reade whiles thou wilt saith hee thou shalt neuer find that either the Lord or his Apostles or the Fathers called that vnbloudie Sacrifice which the Priest offereth AN IMAGE Thus doth he braie foorth defiance to the whole worlde without trueth without shame For Chrysostome saith If Iesus were not once dead whose image and signe is this Sacrifice This Sacrifice is an image and samplar of that Sacrifice And Gelasius Surely the IMAGE and resemblance of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries We must therefore so thinke of the Lord Christ himselfe as we professe and obserue in his IMAGE And likewise Theodoret. Ortho. The mysticall signes which are offered to god by his Priests whereof doest thou call them signes Eranist Of the body blood of the Lord. Ortho It is very well saide Conferre then the image with the paterne and thou shalt see the likenes Dionysius calleth it both an image and a figuratiue sacrifice Nazianzene excusing himselfe How should I saith he presume to offer vnto God that externall sacrifice the image of the great mysteries Clemens Offer you in your churches the image of the royall body of Christ. Macarius In the Church are offered breade and wine the images of his flesh and blood The 〈◊〉 â—aâ—hers keepe the same word the same sense Ambrose In the law was a shadow in the Gospel is an image in heauen is the trueth Before was offered a lambe or a calf now Christ is offred here in an image there in truth where he intreateth his father as an aduocate for vs. AusteÌ„ Christ gaue an image of his burnt offering to be celebrated in the church for a remembrance of his passion The rest say the like but what neede we farther refutation of so ridiculous and vnshamefast a bragge such causes such councels such poppets such Proctors The very children in the church of God knowe that the diuine mysteries by the generall definition of a Sacrament be visible signes of inuisible graces and as Augustine interpreteth the word Sacramentum id est sacrum signum a Sacrament that is a sacred signe So that vnlesse they be signes they can possibly be no sacraments neither sacraments nor signes can they be without or before coÌ„secration which this stout champion had not yet learned therfore his verdict in matters of religion except his cunning were greater may be wel refused As Damasene and your prating Epiphanius were more than 700. yeares after Christ so Theophilact and Euthymius are farre younger The first of them was Bishoppe of the Bulgarians who were conuerted to the faâ—eth 868. yeares after Christ the second your owne chronologie placeth after Gracian and Lombard 1100. yeares short of Christ. Were then these later Grecians wholy with you what gaine you by them If you woulde oppose them to Tertullian Origen Cyprian Austen Gelasius Thedorete others of purer times and sounder iudgements you could winne nothing by that bargaine the choice were soone made which to take which to leaue but in deede you do them wrong to returne them for transsubstantiators they neuer knew what it ment They say the mysteries of the Lords table be not only figures but haue the truth annexed No figures of grace differed but seales of mercy perfourmed in Christ and inioyed of vs no called figures or images of Christes flesh after consecration but bearing as well the names as the fruits and effects of the things themselues whose
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
coÌ„prised their politik obseruations as they be for the most part fals passing slaÌ„derous so to their defeÌ„ce are they idle altogether superfluous and argue rather mindes loaden with malice and tongues fraighted with poyson against the present state euen for very temporall and ciuill affaires than anie religious or dutifull respect of authoritie and submission to the Magistrate But such is the doctrine and education of their Romish seminaries they fell first to flattering and because that tooke no place in a rage they be now run to leude and open slaundering An example whereof to him that hath the booke and may read it appeareth as through the the whole so in fewe lines pag. 177. more spitefull wordes than which the rankest caterpiller in Rome could not haue vttered against the state and kingdom where wee liue not touching the persecution which they suffer but obiecting in plaine wordes to the whole body of her Maiesties most honorable most christian Counsel ignominious practises plaguie iniustice yea euen piracies proditions spiâ—ries soule artes to afflict and coosen the world round about vs with many such disloyall vnnaturall vntrue and vnhonest both surmises and reproches whereof that fardle is full This is one of the reasons why I neither might nor would at large refell their Iesuiticall Defence of English Catholikes as they terme it in deede an artificiall inuectiue defacing and slaundering the publike Gouernment of this realme to the vttermost of their powers The other is for that the summe and effect of those chapters which I haue omitted and might not without offence to the state be published are wholy reduced to those principal questions which I haue handled In their first second and fourth chapters their chiefe scopes are these that Manie Priests catholike in England haue bin condemned executed for meere matter of religion that Campian the rest of the Priests condemned executed vpon pretence of treason were neuer yet guiltie of any such crimes but behaued themselues verie discreetly and nothing seditiously in their answeres to the questions of the Bull of Pius Quintus In these the wise Reader soone perceiueth the whole contention toucheth the Popes iurisdiction and claime denied him by the Lawes of this Realme and his power to depriue the Prince of her crowne and scepter which was the sole respect the Bull of Pius Quintus had The iustifying then of these two foundations with cleare and pregnant proofes had beene requisite for the Iesuites if they had purposed to manifest the innocencie of their brethren where nowe by their rhetoricall vagaries inucighing at the partes and circumstances of their inditementes conuictions and executions they storme at the course which the Iudges obserued but saie nothing to the crime wherewith the guiltie were burdened The Popes power to depriue Princes they will say they haue fully proued and so their brethren in trueth and equitie to be cleared If that were so they sayde somewhat but as I haue shewed they profferre it often they neuer proue it And therefore on the contrarie part as I neede not strengthen the publike iudgements of this Realme with the particular reportes behauiors hopes and enterprises of the Iesuites hauing their triall in Courtes of Recorde and places of vsuall and open iustice neither is that incident to my calling or requisite in these cases so for the maine and generall ground of the crime there fastned on them and after punished in theÌ„ which was that to aide assist persuade or defend the Popes Bull depriuing the Prince of her crowne and throne to incourage her Subiectes or enimies on that pretence to rebellion or inuasion was high and hainous treason the trueth I say of this illation is euident by the third part of this my booke where that point of their Defence is refuted So for the rest which would needes venter their liues in the like quarell I meane for inuesting the Pope with the princes sworde the Iesuites should haue brought sound and sufficient proofe that the Pope by Gods lawe hath a Soueraigne and supreme power ouer this Realme to make Lawes to appoint penalties to dispose the goods landes and bodies of Clerkes and others for such causes and crimes as they count spirituall For this is the power which the Pope lately vsurped in this Realme and from which hee is now rightly and orderly repelled by the Lawes of the same It is no treason with vs to make him chiefe Pastour of your soules nor to giue him an Episcopall or Apostolicall authoritie ouer the whole Church though that also bee a wicked and frantike Heresie but to giue him an externall dominion and coerciue iurisdiction ouer this Realme aboue and against the Prince which the Apostles of Christ neither had nor could haue without apparent iniurie to the Magistrate this is it the Execution of iustice doeth duelie respect and this is farre from any matter of faith or religion Right to commaunde and power to compell belong properly to the sworde by the Lawe of God which they can not attribute to the Pope but they must make him a Superiour Magistrate to the prince in guiding and prescribing the vse of the sworde and consequently the prince to holde her sword and scepter at his pleasure and if she refuse to be streightway displaced This wilie conueiaunce to tie Princes swordes fast to the Popes side and to spoyle them of their Crownes if they doe not execute his rage is the chiefest plotte that Iesuites haue at this instant to resettle the kingdome of Antichrist for which they haue not so much as the paring of anie Scripture or Councell or Father in the Church of Christ for a thowsande yeares and yet in our dayes it must bee a meere matter of Religion and the forefront of their brethrens defence But no maruell if they which make open rebellion a point of their faith so soone consent to haue the Popes presumption holden as the surest key of their Religion To their thirde chapter that they haue great cause to complaine of iniust persecution intollerable seueritie and crueltie towardes Catholikes in Englande and wee no reason to doe the like for the iustice as thy call it doone on vs in Queene Maries and other Princes dayes I neede not replie To this conceite of the Iesuites that they may consume whome they will with fire and faggotte and no man must stoppe them of their passage or hinder their pastimes without iniustice and crueltie what shoulde I saie but that I thinâ—e the Scribe was skant waking whiles hee was penning this drowsie Diuinitie What learning I will not aske what witte was in this to make such definitiue resolutions that no Prince may amerce or imprison their adherentes without intollerable seueritie and crueltie forsooth they might hang and burne olde and young men and women for doubting of their Decretalles and all this with prayse though it neuer pleased anie good man in the Catholike Church
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
it vp translated the same from Basill to Bononia by the consent of all the cardinals that were about him But the Emperour and the rest of the Princes and Prelates that were at Basill were so farre from obeying the Pope that they summoned him twise or thrise to present himselfe with his cardinals at Basill chosen by Pope Martin as a fit place to keepe the councell in otherwise they would proceed against him as a transgressor and wilfull refuser Eugenius troubled with this message confirmeth the councell of Basill with his Apostolike letters licencing all men to go to the councell Phi. I graunt they resisted Eugenius but I doubt of the Councell whether it were lawfull or no. Theo. Will you trust Eugenius himselfe Phi. If he say the word Theo. Thus he saith Not long since for certaine causes expressed in our letters and by the consent and aduise of our brethren the cardinalles of the church of Rome we dissolued the sacred general councell of Basill lawfully begun by the decrees of the generall councels of Constance and Senes by commission from Martin the fift likewise from vs. Mary seeing great dissention hath risen greater may rise by the saide dissolution wee determine declare that the foresaid generall councel of Basill from the first beginning of it was is lawfully continued alwaies hath yet doth ought to dure as if no dissolution had bin made And that our affection and integritie to the sacred generall councell of Basill may plainly appeare whatsoeuer hath beene done attempted or alleadged by vs or in our name to the preiudice or derogation of the sacred generall councell of Basill we vndoe reuoke frustrate and annihilate If this be enough Nicolaus the 5. that came next after Eugenius vpon the composing of the schisme betweene the Councell and the Pope gaue out a generall Bull for the confirmation of all their doinges without exception Omnia singula tam iustitiam quà m gratiam concernentia per ipsum tunc Basiliense Concilium qualitercunque facta gesta concessa data disposita ordinata cuiuscunque naturae existant motu proprio ex certa scientia de Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine de consilio assensu venerabilium fratrum nostrorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinaliū praesentium serie approbamus ratificamus etiā confirmamus rataque firma haberi volumus All euery thing that concerneth either fauor or iustice done deuised granted giuen disposed ordred by the coūcel of Basil of what nature soeuer we of our own motiō certain knowlege by the fulnesse of our Apostolike power and with the assent and aduise of our brethren the Cardinals of the holy church of Rome allow ratifie and confirme by the tenor of these presents and will haue to stand sure and firme So that the Councell of Basill hath ill lucke if after all these buls it bee not both a lawfull and generall Councell Phi. The Bishops of Rome that came after neuer liked the Councell of Basill but we will not striue for that we shall see what you will inferre Theo. No newes for Popes to mislike that which pared their ambition and hindered their gaine as the Councell of Basill did but can you or they denie that the Councell was orderly called Phi. I do not stand so much on that Theo. Then I conclude that a Councell may lawfully resist commaund correct and depose the Pope for so did the late Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill which your Church then helde for sacred and ecumenicall both determine in wordes and practise in deedes You must confute or confesse this illation Phi. I haue saide what I coulde and all will not helpe The Councels you proue to be generall and I see they not onely resisted and deposed Popes but also concluded it lawfull for them so to do Theo. Then you confesse they did and might resist the Pope Phi. Councels I graunt might and did but not others Theo. Why may not others do the like Phi. They must rather obey than resist Theo. We dispute not as yet whether it be lawfull or no for euery man to resist the Pope the cause being iust and when that commeth in question you must shewe good and apparent reason why they may not that which I first auouched was this your owne Cardinales and Councels your owne friendes and fellowes which you may not count schismatikes and heretikes haue stoutly resisted him and restrained and limited his dominion euen in the middest of his pride and ioylitie For Councels I haue saide sufficient Now for others The famous Uniuersitie of Paris which I thinke you will not condemne and the whole kingdom of Fraunce haue often times opposed them-selues against the Pope and withdrawne their obedience from him in part or in all as occasion required Phi. For some monie matters it may be they withstood his Collectors and Officers Theo. The Diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of Iohn the 22. touching the beholding and seeing of God and gate the same to be condemned before the king of Fraunce with the sound of trumpets as Gerson reporteth By this saith he appeareth the falsitie of Pope Iohns doctrine which was condemned with the sound of trumpets before Philip king of Fraunce by the Diuines of Paris and the king beleeued the Diuines of Paris before the Popes court And Ioannes Marius Iohn the second Pope that sate at Auinion fell into suspition of heresie For he taught and defended certaine articles touching the sight and vision of God which the Diuines of Fraunce king Philip taking their part very freely contradicted The yeare before the Councell of Pisa which I last spake of was gathered when Benedict the 13. would yeeld to no reason for ending the schisme between him Gregory the 12. Charles the French king with the aduise of the Bishops Princes and Vniuersities of his Realme caused himselfe to bee proclaimed adherent or obedient to neither of the twaine by them all it was decreed that the whole Church of Fraunce should depart from the obedience of Benedict and by the authoritie of this Councell all the French Cardinals forsooke him When the Councell of Basill was ended the Germans the king of France the king of England the Prince of Millan others fauored the same with all their power neglecting Eugenius authoritie then sitting in the Councel of Florence and the rather to giue it full force and effect in the kingdome of Fraunce Charles the 7. in a Parliament at Burdeuz made a law called the Pragmaticall sanction for the perpetuall obseruation of those thinges which the Councell of Basill had decreed And this law the Bishops of Fraunce and Schole of Paris defended and followed almost an hundred yeares in spite of al that Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. and other Bishops of Rome could do to the contrarie Phi. Did the Bishops of Rome labour
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
your owne fellowes haue reported lamented in no worse than the fountaines of your faith and heads of your Church I wil not say the refues of England but euen the Priests of Baal and Bacchus were Saints in comparison of so lewd and intolerable monsters Stephanus the sixt and Sergius the third pulled Formosus their predecessor out of his graue the one cutting off his fingers the other his head and cast his carkas into Tybris Iohn the twelfth gaue orders in a stable amongst his horses abused his fathers concubine made his pallace a stues put out his Ghostly fathers eyes gelded one of his Cardinals ranne about in armes to set howses on fiar drank to the diuel and at dise called for help of Iupiter and Venus Boniface the seuenth getting the Popedom by il meanes robbed Saint Peters church of al the Iewels pretious things he could find ranne his waies returning not long after caught one of his Cardinals put out his eies Syluester the seconde leauing his Monasterie betooke himselfe wholly to the diuel by whose help he gate to be Pope on this condition that after his death he should be the diuels both bodie and soule Benedict the ninth sold his Popedome to Gregorie the sixt and was therefore worthily blamed of all men and by Gods iudgement condemned For it is certaine that after his death he appeared in an ougly shape with the head and taile of an asse the body of a beare and being asked what that horrible sight ment because saith he whiles I was Pope I liued like a beast without law without reason defiling the Chaire of Peter with al kind of lewdnes Of Gregorie the seuenth and his adherents Beno the cardinal writeth thus Let these hypocrites hold their peace that haue disgraced almost drouned the name of blessed Peter by cloking the flames of their malice vnder a colour of Catholicisme pretēce of iustice Let these false prophets be astonished that are curteous in shew scorpiōs in sting wolues vnder lambs skinnes killing the bodies deuouring the soules of men with the sword of their mouth whose religion sauoureth nothing but of traiterousnes and couetousnes entring the houses of widowes they lead women captiues that bee loden with sinnes and by reason of our troublesome times giue eare to spirits of error and doctrines of diuels which Hildebrand their captain learned of his maisters Benedict the ninth and Gregorie the sixt Gregorie the ninth as Vrspergensis cōplaineth taking occasion by the Emperours absence that was fighting against the Turke sent a great armie into Apulia and inuaded subdued the Emperours dominions being thē in the seruice of Christ a fact most hainous and did his best both in Apulia and Lumbardie to hinder such as were going that viage from passing the Sea seeking thereby to betray the Christian Emperour his armie to the Turke Yea the men of Verona Millan would suffer none to passe by their coasts spoyling the very souldiers that were sent to fight against the Turke and that by the cōmandement of the Pope as they affirmed which alas is horrible to be spoken Who rightly considering wil not lament and detest these things as portending and foreshewing the ruine of the Church Mathewe Paris giueth Innocentius the 3. this commendation King Iohn saith he knew and by often experience had tried that the Pope aboue al mortal men was ambitious and proude an vnsatiable thirster after money and easie to be drawen and induced to all wickednes by gifts or promises Sixtus the fourth made his playfelow Cardinal who was wont to weare cloth of gold at home in his house to ease nature in stooles of siluer and to deck his harlot Tiresia with shoes couered with pearle as Agrippa reporteth he built a sumpteous stewes in Rome appointing it to be both masculine and feminine and making a gaine of that beastly trade As Vuesselus Gronnigensis sayth he gaue the whole familie of the Cardinal of S. Luce free leaue in Iune Iulie August to vse that which nature abhorreth God in Sodome reuenged with fire and brimstone One of your owne side perceiuing the lothsomnes of his life maketh the diuel giue him this entertaynment in hell At tu implume caput cui tanta licentia quondam Femineos fuit in coitus tua furta putabas Hic quoque praetextu mitrae impunita relinqui Sic meruit tua faeda venus sic prodigia in omnem Nequitiam ad virtutis opus tua auara libido But thou thou bauld pate which hast so licentiously defiled thy self with women didst thou thinke thy secrete sinnes by reason of thy myter shoulde here goe vnpunished Receiue the rewarde of thy filthie pastimes so hath thine outragious lust to all lewdnes and voyde of all goodnes deserued It is too shameful that Iohannes Iouianus Pontanus writeth of Lucretia the daughter of Alexander the sixt Hoc tumulo dormit Lucretia nomine sedre Thais Alexandri filia sponsa nurus Here lyeth Lucretia in name in deede a shamelesse whore the daughter of Pope Alexander her fathers brothers harlot The fact so horrible that it were not credible if others did not confirme the same I will trouble chast eares no longer with this vnsauory repetition These disorders of Popes if you weigh them well be more than scandalous giue you smal cause to vaunt of your vertues Phi. These be the things that we told you were more false than Esops fables Theo. It were reason you shoulde proue them false before you reiect them as fables men of your owne sect and side laying thē down for truths in their writings you may not now take vpō you to pronounce them fables lest your credite be called in question your selues reputed to bee worse than lyars These things be they true bee they false wee report them as we find them in your owne stories not your aduersaries but your welwillers were the first autors of them And vnlesse wee see some surer ground than your bare deniall we may better charge you with open flatterie than you may them with wilful forgerie Phi. The number is not great though y◠matters were true Theo. The rest of their outrages if I would recken namely their schismes cōtentions tumults for the Popedom their ambition presumption oppression briberie periurie tyrannie pride craft hypocrisie to conclude their garboyles battailes and bloodshed an whole volume would not suffice And where you make your Clergie so free from scandals heare what men of former times and of your owne side haue spoken and written of your Bishops Priests Monkes and others Bernard of his age Behold saith he these times very much defiled with the worke that walketh in darknes Wo bee to this generation because of the leauen of Pharisees which is hypocrisie If it may be called hypocrisie which is now so rife that it can not and so shamelesse that
yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge in so much that I should bee your admonisher and you all my coadiutors For which respect our intent is by other good meanes and by commissioners appointed for this purpose to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESIASTICALL OR TEMPORAL AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this First they shall indict assemblies in two or three places whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message to witte that wee haue appointed them for this cause that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment hee should haue recourse to them and by their helpe discharge his dutie and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge and againe IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE by their monition he shal be refourmed Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend then shall they with speede make relation thereof to vs that we may correct that which they cannot And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for we will that this present yere our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice haue better respect and care how euery man that we haue preferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure our honor the benefite of our subiects and this shall be the very course of their inquirie whether the things contained in our Capitular which we deliuered them this yere past be kept and obserued according to Gods will our commaundement Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assemble I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops Abbats Lieuetenants our fee men and aduocats the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their duties last of our people in what concord and peace they liue And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes then our wil is they shall go to the place and redresse it by the warrant of our authoritie You can neither bee so simple but you may see nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superuisours of the Bishops in their Empire how they liued and preached ayding those that were hindered correcting those that were negligent in their ministeries and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical order commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie What more than this doth that oth impart which you so much declaime against Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute Can their proceedings please you and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you You must either reiect both or admit both they bee so neare linked you can not disseuer them I now make your selfe iudge whether these Christian and Catholike Princes were not commaunders and punishers those we call gouernours of Bishops Priests and Moncks in maters and causes ecclesiasticall Phi. I see they were but yet not supreme which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth Theo. I beleeue you well for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie which is the chiefest thing you respect Phi. That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe for supreme is superiour to all neither Christes owne person nor his Church excepted Theo. Can you make such merriments when you be disposed Phi. Doth not the word inferre superiour to all or at least subiect to none Theo. Was it in question when this othe was made whether God should be superior to man or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope Phi. It skilleth not what was then in question these bee nowe your woordes Theo. By this cunning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers Phi. Why so Theo. Where the superlatiue is vsed by your rule God himselfe is not excepted And so these phrases a most wise teacher a most holy Bishoppe a most mightie prince and ten thousand such like which we find in all mens bookes and speeches bee meere impieties For they import that many bee wiser holyer and mightier than Christ himselfe or at lest as wise holy and mightie as he which is open inexcusable blasphemie Name me what father or writer you will and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer Phi. That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes For when we giue these titles to men sanctissimus potentissimus beatissimus the most holy father the most puissant king the most blessed Martyr we meane amongst men wee compare them not with God Theo. And since all men euen your selues speake so why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme which we vse as if we ment not amongst men but exalted Princes aboue God Phi. But the Church of Christ is not excepted and that consisteth of men Theo. If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth certainely Princes be not subiect but superiours to all Christian men Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the beleeuers in Creta to bee subiect to principalities and powers and wrate himselfe to all the Saintes at Rome
was loth to sit iudge in his owne person for that he was not acquainted with the Church Canons which were then brought in question but at length when he saw no remedie himself sate in iudgement both after the Pope and after the Councell and heard the whole matter and ended it for euer This inferreth that at the first when he refused he wanted not power to commaund but skill to discerne more requisite in a iudge than the former Yea at the first when he durst not sit iudge himselfe for lacke of experience hee shewed his soueraintie by making delegates to heare and order the cause So sayth S. Austen the very next wordes For that Constantine durst not be iudge himselfe of a Bishops cause eam discutiendam at que finiendam Episcopis delegauit he made delegates of the Bishops to discusse and determine the same And againe causam Ceciliani iniunxit eis audiendam he gaue foorth a precept to the Bishoppe of Rome and others for hearing of Cecilianus his matter Now to delegate the Bishoppe of Rome with others and to giue fresh iudges after them is an argument of greater authoritie than if the Prince in Person had beene iudge in the cause Did not Constantine receiue that appeale which the Donatists made from Meltiades and assigne them other iudges His Epistle to Chrestus Bishoppe of Siracusas in Sicile whom he willed to be present at the Councell of Arle for the ending of the same matter is an euident proofe that hee did At the first sayth Constantine when this schisme beganne I wrate my letters and tooke this order that certaine Bishops comming from Fraunce the parties in strife called for out of Africke the Bishop of Rome being also there in their presence this quarrell should be throughly considered and pacified Mary for so much as they will not agree to the sentence there giuen but goe forward in their outragious dissention I must take care that the strife which should haue caulmed of it selfe at the first decision at least may now bee composed by the meeting of many Hauing therefore charged a great number of Bishops out of diuers coastes to assemble by the kalends of August at Arle I thought it not amisse by letters to require you that you fayle not to be with them at the time place appointed that by your vprightnes with the good aduise and full consent of the rest which shall then there meete you vpon diligent hearing what either side can say whom we haue commanded to be likewise present they may be reduced from the schisme yet during to religion fayth and brotherly concord as in duetie they be bound When Meltiades and his collegues sayth Austen to the Donatists had pronounced Cecilianus innocent and condemned Donatus as authour of the schisme raised at Carthage your side came backe to the Emperour complained of the iudgement of the Bishops against them The most patient mild Emperour the second time gaue them other iudges namely the Bishops that met at Arle in Fraunce Certes the taking of an appeale made from the Bishoppe of Rome and appointing other iudges after him and besides him strongly concludeth the Princes authoritie to bee farre aboue the Popes euen in causes ecclesiasticall or as you terme them spirituall Will you lastly say that Constantine sate not iudge himselfe in this matter as well after Meltiades as after the Councell of Arle S. Austen is flat against you Your men sayth he speaking to the Donatists appealed from the Bishoppes at Arle to the Princes owne person and neuer left till the Emperour himselfe tooke the hearing of the cause betweene them both and pronounced Cicilianus innocent and those his accusers to be malitious wranglers And againe the Donatists appealed from ecclesiasticall iudgement that Constantine might heare the cause Whither when they came both partes standing before him Cecilianus was adiudged to bee innocent the Donatists ouerthrowen To proue this I will bring you sayth Austen the very wordes of Constantine taken out of his letters where hee witnesseth that vpon iudiciall hearing of both sides hee found Cecilianus to be cleare For first declaring how the parties were brought to his iudgement after two iudgements of Bishoppes alreadie past there saith Constantine I fully perceiued that Cecilianus was a man most innocent obseruing the dueties of his religion and folowing the same neither coulde any crime bee fastened on him as his aduersaries had in his absence suggested And shewing what followed vppon this iudgement Then did Constantine sayth hee first make a most sharpe lawe to punish the Donatists His sonnes continued the same read what Valentinian read when you will what Gratian and Theodosius decreed against you Why wonder you then at the children of Theodosius as if they shoulde haue followed any other president in this cause than the iudgement of Constantine which so many Christian Emperours haue kept inuiolable Though Constantine bee dead yet the iudgement of Constantine giuen against you liueth For when Emperours commaunde that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commaundeth by them Lay these thinges together and marke the consequent First the Bishoppe of Rome and his assessours were appointed by the Prince to meddle with this matter as his delegates Next vppon complaint of their partiall dealing the Prince commaunded others leauing out the Bishoppe of Rome to sit in Fraunce to conclude the same cause Thirdly the Donatistes still appealing the Prince called for both sides hearde them in his owne person gaue small iudgement with Cecilianus and discharged him as innocent therewith made a penall edict against the Donatists Fourthly these princely proceedinges of Constantine the Church of God receiued with honor and vsed with gladnesse the Christian Emperours imbraced as vertuous and confirmed as religious S. Austen alleadgeth them as substantiall proofes for the Catholikes and effectuall iudgements against the Donatistes Now speake vprightly whether in this case the Prince were not superiour to the Pope yea supreme gouernour of Ecclesiasticall persons and causes To Theodosius the elder Damasus Siricius Anastasius as I shewed before made grieuous complaints one after an other against Flauianus for entring and possessing the See of Antioch contrarie to the Canons of the church The prince sending for Flauianus heard his answere and admiring the courage and wisedome of the man willed him to returne to his countrie and feede the flocke committed to his charge notwithstanding the Bishops of Rome for the space of seuenteene yeares before would neither acknowledge him for a Bishop nor communicate with him Of Arcadius his son Innocentius the Bishop of Rome requested a Councel for the trial of Chrysostoms cause but his petition was denied his messengers sent awaie with reproach as troublers of the West Empire Chrysostom banished farther off and this edict giuen forth by Arcadius the East Emperour against those that taking part with Innocentius and fauouring
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
thou make of the Church Onely dogges returne to their vomit and thou compellest the Priestes of Christ to sup vp those thinges which they had spitte foorth and doest thou commaund them in their confessions to allow that which before they condemned What Bishops hand hast thou left innocent whose tongue hast thou not forced to falsehood whose heart hast thou not brought to the condemning of his former opinion Substrauisti voluntati tuae sed violentiae Thou hast subiected all to thy will nay to thy violence His violent oppressing of Bishops in their Synodes wresting from them what he would is witnessed by theÌ„ both Synodos contrahis conclusos vrbe vna minis terres fame debilitas hyeme conâ—icis dissimulatione deprauas Thou gatherest Synods saith Hilarie to him when they be closed in one citie thou terrifiest them with threates thou pynest them with hunger thou lamest them with cold thou deprauest them with dissembling He pretendeth saith Athanasius a iudgement or Synode of Bishops for a shewe but in the meane tyme hee doeth whatsoeuer hee list himselfe What libertie of perswasion what place for aduise is there when hee that contradicteth shall for his labour loose his life or his Countrie By that meanes hath the Emperour gathered so great a number of Bishoppes partly terrified with threates partly enticed with promises to graunt they woulde no longer communicate with Athanasius The order of such tyrannicall Synodes the Bishoppes of Aegypt Libia Pentapolis and Thebais doe liuely report in defence of Athanasius whereby wee shall see howe farre they bee from the moderation and regiment of Godly Princes With what face dare they call this conuent a Synode where the Lieutenant was president where the tormentour stoode ready where the Iaylour in steede of the Deacons of the Church brought in those that were called for where the Lieutenant spake the rest that were present kept silence or rather yeelded their seruice to him where that which the Bishoppes by common consent liked was reiected by the Lieutenant Hee sate and commaunded wee were led by souldiers yea the Lieutenant him selfe did whatsoeuer the Eusebians our aduersaries bid him To bee short what shewe of a Synode was there where death or banishment if Cesar sayd the word was decreed This violence Liberius toucheth in his answere to Constantius messenger If the Emperour seeke in deede to interpose his care for the peace of the Church or if he commaund those thinges which wee haue decreed for Athanasius to be reuersed let those things also that are decreed against him be reuersed and after let an ecclesiasticall Synod be called farre from the Palace where the Emperour is not preseÌ„t nor the Lieutenant intermedleth nor the iudge threatneth as Constantius doth in his Synodes but only the feare of God and institution of the Apostles suffice for all things And this dissimulation the Bishops were brought to by the Emperours meanes as your own author confesseth that Constantines sitting presideÌ„t among the Bishops and prescribing rules for their churches the most part of theÌ„ receiued with applause admiratioÌ„ whatsoeuer he said affirming it to be diuinely spokeÌ„ What maruaile then if Athanasius reproued Constantius for sitting among the bishops in their Synods as president of their iudgements ringleader or ruler of the bishops in their determinations when as hee oppressed the freedome of their voyces with terror corrupted the secrets of their harts with promises hindered the vprightnes of their proceedings with his presence Or if Leontius brake out into these words I woonder that hauing charge of other things thou enterest into these matters and that being gouernour of the campe and common welth thou prescribest those things to Bishops which pertaine only to Bishops Touching accusations of Bishops his tyrannie was greater He made his Palace the Consistorie for such causes and himselfe iudge of them where if any Arrian accused an other Bishop were the complaint neuer so false the proofe neuer so slender the man neuer so giltlesse the partie accused should not cleare himselfe no not so much as speake for himself but was sure though he were absent and innocent to die the death or suffer banishment Phi. You imagine this of your own head to make Constantius seeme a very tyrant Theo. The words which you brought do fully proue so much but that you cut them off from the rest to make them sound for your purpose Put the wordes that follow to theÌ„ and see whether they do not import that which I saide Now againe in steed of Ecclesiasticall cognition that is the triall of Bishops by their Synodes when they are accused he hath appointed his palace the iudgement seate of those causes and himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbitrer of those contentions or accusations and that which you would wonder at if at anie time hee perceiue the accusers to stagger or faile in their proofes hee himselfe plaieth the accuser so as the partie conuented is suffered to replie nothing by reason of his violence Which he plainly shewed in Athanasius cause For in that matter hearing the free speach of Paulinus Lucifer Eusebius and Dionysius all foure Bishops prouing by the recantation of Vrsacius and Valens that the crimes obiected to Athanasius were false and the sayings of Vrsacius and Valens which they themselues had reuoked ought not to be credited Constantius straightway rising vp said I am Athanasius accuser on my word beleeue those thinges that are obiected to him Here the Bishops answering againe howe can you accuse Athanasius in his absence Graunt you would accuse him the absence of the partie accused is a let that you can not proceed to iudgement The iudgement is not of any common-wealth matter that you should bee beleeued as Emperour but a Bishop is accused and in this case he that wil accuse and hee that is accused must be delt withall in like condition How can you accuse him that could not be present for the distance of place If you haue those thinges which you obiect by hearesay reason is you also beleeue that which Athanasius shall bring in defence of himselfe For if you beleeue these his accusers and beleeue not him it may be thought they say these thinges and accuse Athanasius to content and please you This when the Emperour heard expounding their honest allegations for his reproches he banished them and waxing the sharper against Athanasius gaue foorth a terrible edict that he should be punished and his churches deliuered to the Arrians and his aduersaries haue leaue to do what they would Hereby the Arians waxed so confident that they spared no man Whom haue they not touched saith Athanasius with their false accusations Whom haue they not intrapped Whom hath not Constantius banished that was accused by them When did he not giue them both audience and allowance Whom euer did he admit to saie any thing against them Or what did he
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
his brethren vnprofitable slacke in his office silent in that which is good hurtfull to himselfe all others yea though hee leade with him innumerable soules by heapes to the diuell of hell yet let no mortal man presume to find fault with him or reproue him for his doings This is the subiection which your holy father wold haue which you count vs absurd for not acknowledging But may we not iustly say to you as S. August saide to the Donatistes This which you affirme that al the worlde must bee subiect to one man as to Christs Uicar Did God or man tell it you If God read it vnto vs out of the law the Prophets the Psalms the Apostolical or Euangelicall writings Read it if you can which hitherto you ueuer coulde But if men haue saide it or rather no men but your selues beholde the deuise of men beholde what you worship behold what you serue behold wherefore you rebel you rage you waxe madde Phi. If you will not bee subiect to the Pope as Christes Uicar and head of the Church which no doubt he is yet haue you no colour to withstande his authoritie as hee is and euer was Patriarke of the West Theo. His vicarshippe to Christ and headshippe ouer the Church bee thinges that you speake much of but shewe small proofe for It were good you woulde either prooue them or not presume them as you doe they bee matters of greater weight than that you may carie them away with your faire lookes Patriarke of the West wee graunt he was which is a foule fall from head of the Church and Uicar generall to Christ himselfe and yet this way you come too short of your reckoning For first the tytle and authoritie of Archbishoppes and Patriarkes was not ordayned by the commaundement of Christ or his Apostles but the Bishops long after when the Church began to bee troubled with dissentions were content to lincke themselues together and in euery Prouince to suffer one whome they preferred for the worthines of his Citie and called their Metropolitane that is Bishoppe of the chiefe or mother Citie to haue this prerogatiue in all doubts of Doctrine and discipline to assemble the rest of his brethren or consult them absent by letters and see that obserued which the most part of them determined Before there beganne schismes in religion the Churches sayth S. Hierom were gouerned by the common Councell of the Seniors And therfore Episcopi nouerint se magis consuetudine quam dominicae dispositionis veritate Presbyteris esse maiores Let the Bishoppes vnderstand that they bee greater than ministers or elders rather by Custome than by any trueth of the Lordes appointment and that they ought to gouerne the Church in common And in his Epistle to Euagrius hauing fully prooued by the Scriptures that the Apostles called themselues but Presbyteros Elders or Seniors he addeth Quod autē postea vnus electus est qui ceteris praeponereter in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christiecclesiā rumperet That after their times one was chosen in euery Church and preferred before the rest to haue the dignitie of a Bishoppe this was prouided for a remedie against schismes lest euery man drawing some vnto him shoulde rent the Church of Christ in pieces For what doth a Bishop except ordering of others which an Elder may not doe And lest you should thinke he speaketh not as well of the chiefe as of the meaner Bishoppes hee compareth three of the greatest Patriarkes with three of the poorest Bishops he could name Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue Constantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tains eiusdem meriti eiusdem est Sacerdotij Potentia diuitiarum paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit ceterum omnes Apostolorum successores sunt A Bishop of what place soeuer hee be either of Rome or of Eugubium or of Constantinople or of Rhegium or of Alexandria or of Tains hath the same merite and the same function or Priesthood Abundance of riches or basenes of pouertie doeth not make a Bishoppe higher or lower for they all be successours to the Apostles So that the Bishoppe of Rome by commission from Christ and succession from the Apostles is no higher than the meanest Bishop in the worlde The superioritie which he and others had as Metropolitanes in their owne Prouinces came by custome as the great Councell of Nice witnesseth not by Christes institution Let the olde vse continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishoppe of Alexandria bee chiefe ouer all those places for so much as the Bishoppe of Rome hath the like custome Likewise at Antioch and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe their prerogatiues The generall Councell of Ephesus confesseth the same It seemeth good to this sacred and oecumenicall Synode to conserue to euery prouince their right priuileges whole and vntouched which they haue had of olde according to the custome that now long hath preuayled Next their authoritie was subiect not only to the discretion and moderation of their brethren assembled in Councell but also to the lawes Edicts of Christian Princes to be graunted extended limited and ordered as they saw cause For example the first Councell of Constantinople aduaunced the Bishoppe of that Citie to bee the next Patriarke to the Bishoppe of Rome which before he was not And the Councel of Chalcedon made him equall in ecclesiasticall honours with the Bishoppe of Rome and assigned him a larger Prouince than before he had So Iustinian gaue to the Citie in Africa that he called after his owne name the See of an Archbishoppe Archiepiscopale munus quod Episcopo Iustinianeae Carthaginis Africanae Dioeceseos dedimus conseruari iubemus Sed aliae ciuitates atque horum Episcopi quibus passim in diuersis locis ius Metropoliticum concessum est in perpetuum hoc priuilegio perfruuntor The Archiepiscopal dignitie which wee gaue to the Bishoppe of Iustinianea within the Prouince of Africa we commaund to continue still And likewise let other Cities and their Bishops to whom in diuers places and Countries the right of Metropolitanes hath beene graunted enioy that priuilege for euer The same Prince as you heard before commanded the Archbishops and Patriarkes of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem and generally subiecteth them in ecclesiasticall causes and iudgements to the sacred Canons and his Imperiall Lawes as appeareth expressely in his publike Edicts made to that end Thirdly by the right and auncient diuision of prouinces this Realme was not vnder the Bishoppe of Rome For when the Bishoppes of Africa praied Innocentius either to send for Pelagius the Britan or to deale with him by letters to shewe the meaning of his lewde speaches tending to the derogation of Gods grace the Bishoppe of Rome made
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks which catholiks without all contradiction when they haue driuen out the heretiks shall haue and hold the same and so preserue it in puritie of faith the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe whole so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree And the same law to take place in such also as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours Theo. Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous as well against Princes as priuate men But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes had to determine thus against Princes to take both their crownes and Realmes from them when they listed to excommunicate them The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred as you crake Bishops and other Prelates but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops but Priors conuentuall their substitutes euen dreaming Monkes and begging Friers that then began to pester the world and had no right to sit in Councels By such creatures of his owne making and at his sole disposing it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde if they would haue saide nay such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose And what if no such thing were there decreed but onely proposed and consulted on and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renowmed decree and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges as fully concluded in that Councell Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present and the very next wordes and see whether it be not so Venere saith Platina multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit Many thinges were debated in that councell but nothing coulde plainely bee decided by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen died by the way And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Dominions and lay them open to the spoile but not concluding as being preuented by the Popes hastned and inopined death Phi. We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures warrant of antiquitie The. So had you need For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God from the preceptes of Christ and doctrine of his holie spirit you must not bring vs Popes Schoolemen and Fiers the eldest of theÌ„ a 1000. yeares after Christ children will not be deceiued with such â—ables you must proue your selues assoiled froÌ„ obedience to Princes when the Pope list to giue you leaue by the selfe same heauenly records by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them The worde of God bindeth you to obey them the wordes of men can not loose you Goe therefore directly and soundly to worke or else you do but increase your sinne Phi. I will and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Testament and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests Theo. This is it which we require you to proue but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God and that they may chalenge honour subiection and tribute of all that be within their Realmes not onely by the consent of men but by Gods institution and ordinance Phi. They be but humane creatures Theo. How shoulde men be more then humane creatures but their power is of God S. Paul speaking of them saith There is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God So before him saide the wisedom of God By me kinges raigne Rule therefore is giuen them of the Lord and power by the most high They be Gods ministers for the wealth of him that doeth well and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil As their power is from God so the commaundemâ—nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them Feare God honour the king saith S. Peter and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde Feare saith hee the Lord and the king Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them that we may neither open our lips bende our heats nor lift vp our handes against them Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people curse not the king no not in thy thought much lesse then may we resist them Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers Whosoeuer resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shal receiue to themselues iudgement You must be subiect not onely because of wrath but also for conscience sake And so S. Peter Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature or ordinance vnto the king as surpassing the rest For so is the will of God And threatning an heauie iudgement hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermeÌ„t and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes They despise gouernment and speake euill of them that are in authority Of this subiection due vnto Princes the tribute which we paie them is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest You must be subiect For for this cause pay ye also tribute And therefore the Lord himselfe when he charged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars ment that honour subiection and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar. Phi. All this we knowe Theo. All this if you keepe as well as know you shall offend the lesse Phi. Honour subiection and tribute must be giuen to Caesar so long as Caesar is Caesar but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar then these thinges are not due to him Theo. What meane you by this so long as Caesar is Caesar Phi. That is vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire Theo. Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar but if you once denounce him
the right members of Antichrist when you make such reasons to flatter the Bishop of Rome Phi. The Scripture saith of Elias He cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked the honorable from their Seates and of Eliseus in the same place he neuer feared Prince nor could be ouercome by any Theo. If the Scripture will not serue your turnes you wil make it I perceaue by one meanes or other The wordes as they lie in the Greeke are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hee brought Kinges to destruction and the mightie from their beddes you to help the matter put in termes of your owne and say he cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked them from their Seats as if Elias had beene some Iustie swash-buckler to plucke them out by the eares and not a zealous and sincere Prophet to denounce the will of God vnto them with the perill of his owne life for the which he is commended And so of Elizeus the wise man saith He was shaken that is driuen from the doing of his dutie or afearde to doe that which God willed him for any ruler These and such like praises if you take them as in Prophets and Preachers they may and ought to be taken which is not to shrinke from declaring the will of God for any Prince to aduertise them as well as others of the danger and destruction that hangeth ouer their heads they be great vertues and shined in Elias and Eliseus very brightly But if you aggrauate words to persuade men that Elias or Eliseus did depose princes as superiour iudges or layd violent hands on them to pul them from their thrones you make them Rebellious disturbers of states which was farre from them and not religious seruants to God as in deede they were Phi. By these examples of holy Scriptures we see first that annointed and lawfully created Kings may be deposed secondly for what causes they were depriued thirdly that as in the creation and consecration of Kings so also in their depriuation God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets as either ordinarie or extraordinarie Iudges or executors of his wil towards them Theo. Your examples haue beene throughly considered and howsoeuer you correct and qualifie your conclusion the precedents no way fitte your purpose That annointed and lawfully created Kings may be chased from the gouernment the example of Iehu will iustifie if you adde these two prouisoes that the warrant be special from Gods own mouth the fact be done by the Magistrate whom God hath authorized to take the sword for so doth Iehues example require the rest intend no such thing The Princes which you name were either not deposed or not lawfully created Saul was presently reiected from Gods fauour and spirit from the possession of the Kingdome hee was not but only cutte off from the succession Ieroboam was sorely threatned and Vzziah sharply punished but yet neither of them deposed Achab was twise rebuked by Elias but not depriued And Athalia whom the hie-Priest in the young Kings name commaunded to bee slaine vsurped and was neuer lawfully created The causes for which they were depriued wee neede not dispute of vnlesse you first shew that they were depriued Athalia was slaine neither for Apostasie nor heresie but for vsurping the Crowne against the right heire Vzziahs actes were commended but his pride detested by God Ioram was of no worse religion than Achab his Father and others before him and after him which yet were not deposed But God reuenged on him the whordomes and witchcraftes of his mother Iesabel which hee suffered and the bloud of all his seruantes the Prophets which hee spilt in the raigne both of Achab and Ioram That cause the Prophet vttered to Iehu and Iehu to Ioram when hee slew by Israel And this plague vppon Achabs wife and house Elias threatned after the killing of Naboth Phi. Was not Ioram an Idolater Theo. Yeas that encreased his sinne but it was not the cause that he lost his kingdome Your third obseruation halteth downe right and doubleth so many times either and or that in effect you resolue nothing You say God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets in the depriuation of Kings He vsed their mouthes to foretell and declare the plagues that he would send on Princes and sometimes their hands to annoint such as he would haue succeede But he vsed them neither as ordinarie nor extraordinarie Iudges nor executors to depose Princes Messengers they were to deliuer by worde of mouth that which God had determined to such as did or shoulde inherite the kingdome other execution or authoritie to depriue Princes they had none And this is farre from that which you claime for the Pope whome you make the superuisour of Princes and an ordinarie Iudge to compell them and displace them if hee see cause Phi. For so much as these Princes helde their dignities and Soueraigne authorities of God and were bound to occupie and vse the same with what forces soeuer they had to the aduauncement of his Religion and to the true worshippe and honour of their supreme Lord and Master as also to the beneâ—ite and preseruation of his people in fayth and feare of him the Priestes and Prophetes that then had the principall and direct charge of mens soules and Religion and were in spirituall matters superiours to their owne Princes rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of GOD destruction of Religion and to the notorious domage of the soules of them ouer whome they did raigne and in the behalfe of GOD executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the destruction of true religion and aduauncement of Idolatrie Heresie or such like abhomination Theo. Neuer giue vs a reason why Princes may bee deposed by Priests and Prophets so long as the fact it selfe is in doubt not yet proued to be lawful That kings holde their soueraigne authorities of God and are bound to vse the same to the aduauncement of his true worship and honour as also to the preseruation of his people in the faith and feare of him this is a point alwayes vrged by vs and lately confessed by you before you were ware for you were wont to tell vs that Princes might not meddle with spirituall things or causes and now you professe that Princes are bound to vse their authorities and forces whatsoeuer to the aduauncement of Gods religion and to the true worship and honour of God and preseruation of his people in the fayth and feare of him This then is a sound and an euident trueth alleaged by vs and allowed by you But when you grow from this to conclude that if Princes vse not their swordes and forces as they shoulde and are bounde Priestes may take their dignities and authorities from them you put Iron feete to a golden head and thinke the metals wil agree But
you bee â—owly deceiued Your consequent is as false as your antecedent is true That Princes shoulde vse their swordes for the seruice of GOD is a cleare and vndoubted principle but that Prophetes Priests or Popes may take their Scepters from them if they vse them otherwise than they ought this is a false presumption of yours and not a consequent either of your former examples or your later excurrents where you fâ—â—rish about with many pretences and prefaces to shew the reason of your wicked assertion Phi. Our conclusion is that the Priests and Prophets rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of God and destruction of religion and in the behalfe of God executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the aduancement of Idolatrie heresie Theo. What wordes you list to colour and cloake your conclusion with wee care not The matter in question betwixt vs is not whether Prophetes might oppose themselues by way of reproofe or do that which God commaunded them to the terror of Idolatrous Princes which you call executing of iustice in Gods behalfe vpon such as abused their power But in plaine termes whether euer any Priest or Prophet by vertue of their vocation as superiour Iudges did violently withstand or iudicially depose Idolatrous or hereticall Princes You take vppon you to proue by holy Scripture they did we say they did not They reproued them and threatned them by special direction and message from God they neuer deposed any Onely God sent one of them to will Iehu to take the sword in hand and as a lawfull magistrate nominated and elected by God himselfe to take vengeance on Achabs house and race Whence it will not follow that other Priests and Prophets by their ordinarie calling might do the like or giue Crownes and kingdomes as they sawe cause This was and is specially reserued vnto God When hee speaketh the worde Princes shall loose not only Scepter and State but life and soule and vntill hee speake neither Apostles nor Prophets Priests nor Popes may presume to dispose kingdomes or name successours to the Crownes of earthly Princes Phi. In these cases and all other doubtes and differences betwixt one man and an other or betwixt Prince and people that Priestes and namely the high Priest shoulde bee the Arbiter and Iudge the interpreter of Gods wil towards his people is most consonant both to nature reason the vse of all nations and to the expresse Scriptures For in Gods sacred Law thus we read Si difficile ambiguum apud te iudicium esse prospexeris inter sanguinem sanguinem causam causam lepram non lepram c. If thou foresee the iudgement to be hard and ambiguous betwixt bloud and bloud cause and cause leprosie or no leprosie and find varietie of sentences among the iudges at home rise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall chuse and thou shalt come to the Priests of Leuies stocke and to the iudge that shall be for the time thou shalt aske of them they will iudge according to the trueth of iudgement and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they say that haue the rule of the place which God shall chuse and shall teache thee according to his lawe thou shalt not decline neither to the right hand nor left And if any shall bee so proude as not to obey the commandement of the Priest that shall for that time minister vnto the Lord thy God by the sentence of the iudge let that man die and so thou shalt remoue euil from Israel and al the people hearing shall feare and take heede that hereafter they waxe not proude Thus farre in the holy text generally with out all exception subiecting in cases of such doubtes as are recited all degrees of faithfull men no lesse kinges than others to the Priests resolution Theo. What will you doe to help your cause that will thus both corrupt wrest the Scriptures to make them serue your fansies You wilfully peruert the words of the holy Ghost to bring them to your beck and as if that were not corruption enough you wrench force the sense of the Scripture against reasoÌ„ against trueth against the whole course of the Iewes common wealth against the very partes and branches of the text it selfe Phi. First what corruption haue wee committed in the wordes Theo. That where the wordes are If any through pride will not obay the commaundement of the Priest which shall for the time minister vnto the Lord thy God or disobay the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die you change them and say If any man will not obay the commaundement of the Priest by the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die Phi. So the latine is Ex decreto â—udicis morietur homo ille By the decree of the Iudge shal that man die Theo. But the Greeke and Hebrue are cleane against it The words of the Septuagint are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The man whosoeuer he be that shal in pride not obay the Priest that is appointed to minister vnto the name of the Lord or els shal not obay the iudge which shal be in those daies that man shal die thou shalt take the euil one from Israel The Hebrew is answerable to the Greeke The man that shal doe in pride Lebilthi shemóahh el-haccohèn hahhomèd Lesháreth shà m eth-Iehouà elohéca ò el-hasshophèt umeth haïsh hahù not to heare the Priest or the Iudge that man shall die And so did Cyprian repete this text Et homo quicunque fecerit in superbia vt non exaudiat Sacerdotem aut Iudicem quicunque fuerit in diebus illis morietur homo ille omnis populus cum audierit timebit And the man whosoeuer shall in pride not heare the Priest OR THE IVDGE which shal be in those dayes that man shal die and al the people when they heare of it shall feare Phi. But S. Hierom read it otherwise as you see by his translation Theo. You haue corrupted the translation which you call S. Hieroms and now you would bolster out your forgeries with his name Howbeit knowe you that the very same translatioÌ„ not long since was not Ex decreto iudicis but decreto iudicis He that obeyeth not the coÌ„mandement of the Priest and the decree of the iudge that man shall die This was the text of the Bible which you cal S. Hierome not much more than 200 yeres since when Nicolaus de Lyra your ordinarie Glosse did coÌ„ment vpon it And so they read to this day as also many written copies that I haue seene Hereupon Lyra saith In these such cases they must haue recourse to the superiour Iudges that is to the high Priest and the Iudge of the people And sometimes it fell out that both offices did concurre in one person
a Marginall note Phi. There is no warre in the world so iust or honorable be it ciuill or forraigne as that which is waged for religion we say for the true auncient Catholike Romane religion which by the lawes of holy church and all christian Nations is adiudged to bee the only true worship of God and vnto the obedience of which all Princes people haue yeelded themselues either by oth vow or sacramentes or euerie of these waies For this it is goodly and honorable to fight in such order and times as wee bee warranted in conscience and law by our supreme Pastours and Priestes and not for wild condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholikes kinges Priests as the rebellious Protestantes and Caluinistes of this time doe without all order law or warrant of God or man As the armes taken for defence of godlie honour and inheritāce in such sort difference from heretical tumults as is said are so much more commendable and glorious for that no crime in the world deserueth more sharpe and zealous pursuite of extreme reuenge whether it be in superiours or subiects than reuolting from the faith to strange religions Theo. Bee you not maruelous sharpe and sounde disputers which alwaies proue that you neede not and euer inferre that you should not Phi. Wee proue directly that which wee vndertooke Theo. What vndertooke you Phi. That Princes might be depriued Theo. By sentence meane you or by violence Phi. By sentence if that will serue but if they yeelde not thereto then by violence Theo. Your iudiciall power to giue sentence of depriuation against them you would faine haue established by the Scriptures and examples of the Primatiue church howe short you came of that reckoning I leaue the wise to consider You proceede nowe to the violent expelling them from their Princely seates wherein it is a world to see how idlely you hunt about or rather purposely pursue the wrong foote because in the right you finde no reliefe Warre for the Catholike Religion is both lawfull and honorable you saie you must adde of the subiectes against their Prince or else you range cleane besides our question Wee striue not what causes may leade christian Princes to make warre on their neighbors but whether it be lawfull or tolerable for the subiect to beare armes against his naturall and absolute Prince You proue which is nothing to your purpose that princes haue waged warres for religion when you come to make your conclusion you secretly conuey this vnder hand which is most in doubtt betwixt vs and in generall termes you proclaime that warres for religion are iust and honorable But Sir in this interprise the person must be respected as well as the cause Be the cause neuer so iust if the person be not authorized by God to draw the sworde they bee no iust nor lawfull warres but barbarous and theenish vprores For say your selfe when malefactours deserue to die may priuate men put them to death without the Magistrate Phi. No. Theo. And if they do be they not murderers though the crime which they reuenge be worthy of death Phi. They bee Theo. Then if in priuate punishmentes men may not presume without his authoritie that beareth the sworde much lesse may they venter on open warres which are wilfull and furious executions by plaine force without all order of iustice vnlesse they be directly warranted by him that hath the sword from God to take vengeance of the wicked Phi. We be warranted in conscience and law Theo. Wee talke nowe of your conclusion not of your commission If Princes who beare the sword may lawfully wage warre for religion is it consequent I aske you that priuate men which haue not the sword may doe the same Phi. Priuate men may not beare armes without authoritie Theo. And if they doe bee they not plaine theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not warranted to fight Theo. To rifle and slea one is theft and murther by the lawes of God and man what then are they that spoile Realmes and kill thowsandes with armed violence but grand theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not lawfully authorized thereto they be no better than robbers and slaughterers Theo. Then Princes may mage warre if the cause bee good because God hath giuen them the sworde to maintaine iustice and if that bee refused to offer force both at home and abroade priuate persons may not doe the like bee the cause neuer so iust for so much as they bee not licenced by God to beare or vse the sword Phi. I tolde you before that we bee warranted Theo. So had you neede Your warres else for religion bee no lawfull iust armes but desperate and wicked tumults But by whom are you warranted Phi. By our supreme Pastors and Priestes Theo. Doe Pastours and Priestes beare the sworde Phi. I say not so but they warrant vs to take the sworde Theo. Can they warrant you to take the sword that haue no autoritie to beare the sword Phi. They be superiour iudges to these that beare the sworde Theo. What In temporall causes Phi. No but in spirituall Theo. Fighting and killing are martiall not spirituall affaires Phi. Yet to be directed by spiritual Pastors Theo. We striue not for directing but for authorizing of armes Preachers may be consulted whether the quarrell be iust but onely the Magistrate that hath from heauen supreme power of goods lands life and death can warrant the subiect to vse the sword Phi. The cause maketh the warre lawfull or otherwise It is godly and honorable to fight for religion we say for the true ancient catholike Romane religion in such order and time as we be warranted in conscience and lawe by our supreme Pastours Priestes and not for vile condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholike kinges and Priestes as the rebellious Protestants and Caluinistes of this time do without all order law warrant of God or man Theo. If Nabals sheepe be not all shorne I dare warrant you better intertainement there than euer Dauid had Spoiles massacres conspiracies and treasons euen to the destruction and murther of Princes by their own seruāts if a Priest say the word you count in your selues to be iust honorable and godlie warres If others doe but stand on their gard to keepe their liues and families from the bloodie rage of their enimies seeking to put whole townes and Prouinces of them to the sworde against all lawe and reason and to disturbe the kingdomes in the minoritie of the right Gouernours or if they defend their ancient and christian liberties couenanted and agreed on by those Princes to whō they first submitted themselues and euer since confirmed and allowed by the kinges that haue succeeded If in either of these two cases the godly require their right and offer no wrong impugne not their Princes but onely saue their owne liues you crie rebellious heretikes rebellious
to come from God and not from man If you saie that Abia sought not for the kingdome but for Religion though his owne wordes sound to the contrarie knowe you that as Ieroboam was starke naught so Abia for all his crakes and your praises was little better The holie Ghost whose report wee must beleeue before yours saieth that hee walked in all the sinnes of his Father which hee had doone before him and that his heart was not right with the Lorde his God And the sinnes of his Father are thus described in the Scripture Iudah wrought wickednesse in the sight of the Lorde and they prouoked him more with their sinnes which they committed than all that which their Fathers had doone For they also made them high places and images and groues on euerie high hill and vnder euerie greene tree There were also Sodomites in the Land that did according to all the abominations of the people which the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel This was in the time of Roboam Abia walked in al his waies and therefore lacked not much of Ieroboans wickednesse though you make him a victorious religious conquerour That Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram is verie true but that their reuolt was either lawfull or for religion that you proue not Edom had no such respect they were prophane persons and Infidels and as soone as they sawe their time they cast off the yoke which the kinges of Iudah had laide vpon them But not long after in the raigne of Amaziah they were meetely wel plagued by the king of Iudah for their reuolting he smiting tenne thowsand of them with the sworde and taking other tenne thowsand aliue and casting them down from the top of a rocke that they burst al to peeces thereby to giue them a iust recompence for their former rebellion The Scripture saith that Libuah a citie of the Priests as appeareth by the first allotment made in the 21. of the booke of Ioshua rebelled at the same time but it commendeth their rebellion no more than it doeth the rebellion of Edom. It will be as hard for you to proue either of them did well as that your selues may do the like Leude deedes are reported in the Scripture as will as good but not commended No more are these Phi. The text saith they did it because the king of Iudah had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers Theo. The Scripture doth not set down the cause why they might lawfully doe it but addeth this as a reason why God suffered these troubles to fall on king Ioram As if it should haue said no maruell to see these rebell against him for he had forsaken the God of his fathers And if this were a fault in king Ioram to forsake the God of his fathers as in truth it was how can the priests of Libuah be excused for seuering themselues from the line of Dauid without warrant from God that which was worse from the temple seruice of God established by expresse commandement at Ierusalem If that be true which you say that Libuah could neuer be recouered again to the kingdom of Iudah your selfe conuince them of a pestileÌ„t wicked reuolt For though they might pretend religion against king Ioram yet against the godly kings of Iudah which followed as Ezechiaâ— Iosias others they could pretend none therfore by your own confession it was no defection from Iorams idolatrie but a plaine rebellion against the kingdom of Iudah an vtter renouncing the Altar Temple seruice of God at IerusaleÌ„ Which how it might stand with their duties to God his law we yet conceiue not neither wil you euer be able to iustifie that fact of theirs with all your cunning and eloquence The ten tribes assembled to sight with Ruben Gad for building an Altar by Iordan against the commandement of God and therein they did but their duties If you aske by what authority they did it the answere is easie Their commonwealth coÌ„sisting of 12. tribes al indued with like soueraignty ten might lawfully represse two without any farther warraÌ„t as after they did the Beniamits for that filthy fact of the men of Gibeah But yet at this time Ioshua liued whom God himselfe had appointed captaine ruler of the 12. tribes therfore besides that authority which the whole had ouer a part that in common regimeÌ„t is sufficeÌ„t there was a superior magistrate at the denouÌ„cing of these wars and though they had fought togither as equals yet will not that example ratiâ—ie the rebelling of subiectes against their Princes which is your purpose Phi. Since Christs law religion was establâ—shed diuerse great honorable fights haue bin made for the faith against princes and prouinces that vniustly withstood and annoied the same Theo. What warres haue bin for religion since the comming of Christ if you meane between Prince Prince Realme Realme is bootles for you to seeke needlesse for vs to answere We dispute not what causes may iustly be pursued with battel but what what persons are permitted to take the sword against whom And vnto the time of Gregory the 1. which compasse you take to bring vs some presidents of your doings you can not shew that euer christian subiects did beare armes against their Princes for any quarrell of regilion were allowed Rebellions were rife in those ages as well as now but we deny that the Church of Christ or the godly Bishops of those times did euer consent allow or like those tumults much lesse procure them or vse them for the safegard of their Sees as you beare men in hand they did Phi. In old times of the primatiue church the christian Armenians lawfully defended themselues by armes against their Emperor Maximinus Theo. You that feare not to depraue the scriptures wil make no bones to corrupt vitiate other Stories at your pleasures The Armenians being no subiects but confederats wheÌ„ Maximinus would haue compelled them to worship idols to that ende offered them force resisted as they lawfully might of fellowes friends became straÌ„gers aduersaries The words of Eusebius are very plaine for that purpose Maximinus had also warre with the Armenians who of long time before that had bin friendes confederates with the Romanes That people being christians very deuoute this hatefull tyrant attempting to force to the sacrifices of idols diuels made them of friends foes of collegues enimies Phi. The Catholike people of diuers Prouinces haue often by force defended and kept their Bishoppes in their seates against the Infidels but specially against the commaundements of heretical Emperors yea and resisted them in defence of their Churches and the sacred goods of the same As the Citizens of Antioche defended their Church against the Emperour Galerius his officers Theo. Your generall and voluntarie
next foure hundreth yeeres you name vs one that was not depriued of his Empire but denyed his reuenues in Italie by the rebellion of the souldiers and Citizens of Rome Rauenna Venice other places against him Phi. The Greeke and Latine writers doe consent that this was Gregories act Zonaras sayth Gregorie which then ruled the church of olde Rome refusing the fellowship of the Bishoppe of newe Rome of all that were of his opinion wrapped them together with the Emperour in a Synodical excōmunication and stayed the tribute which til that time was paied to the Empire and made a league with the Germanes Vrspergensis sayth Gregorie the Pope of Rome prohibited any tribute to bee giuen to the Emperour out of the Citie of Rome or out of Italie Frisingensis hath the like Gregorie the Pope warning the Emperour often tymes by letters and finding him incorrigible perswaded Italie to reuolt from his Empire And so Sigebert Gregorie reprooued Leo the Emperour for his error and turned both the people of Rome and the tribute of the West partes from him Moe I coulde bring you but these are enough Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo the thirde was like enough to be Pope Gregories act For the Bishops of Rome were then Malcontentes to see the Bishops of Constantinople liue in such wealth ease and honor and themselues neglected by the Greeke Emperours and afflicted dayly by the Lumbardes And therefore I thinke they were forwarde enough to kindle the people against their Prince vppon the least occasion that might fall out And that may be the meaning of those Greeke and Germane writers which you bring that the Bishop of Rome occasioned or secretly incouraged the rebellion of Italie against Leo But that he tooke vpon him in those dayes to be the deposer of Princes as now he doeth or that he openly shewed or pleaded his vniuersall and supreme power to dispose kingdomes which is the thing that you shoulde proue that I denie and therein your owne stories as well the elder as the later sort of them that otherwise be very partial will iustifie my speech Diaconus aliue in those dayes saieth Leo the Emperour tooke the images of Sainctes at Constantinople and burnt them and commaunded the Bishop of Rome if euer he looked to haue his fauour to do the like But the Bishop refused to doe it and all the souldiers of Rauenna and Venice resisted this precept with one consent and but that the Bishop of Rome prohibited them so to doe they had attempted to make an other Emperour ouer them Regino that liued 200. yeres before Sigebert Frisingēsis Vrspergensis or Zonaras saith the same Blondus a diligent searcher and reporter of antiquities where partiall affection doth not blinde him saith The Emperour dealt by faire meanes at first with the Bishop of Rome if hee woulde haue his fauour to pull downe and burne the images in all places of Italy as he had done in the East Upon this precept of the Emperour first the citizens of Reuenna then the people and souldiers of Venice brake into an open rebellion against the Emperour and his deputie the exarch and laboured to the Bishop of Rome and to other cities of Italie to abrogate the Empire of Constantinople and to chose one of Italy or Rome for their Emperour and the rebellion went so farre that reiecting Magistrates which the exarch had appointed euerie citie and euery towne beganne then first since the inclination of the Romane Empire to create and elect Magistrates of their owne which they called Dukes But Stephen the Bishop of Rome repressed that attempt of the Italians to choose a new Emperour because he hoped Leo would vppon better aduise hereafter forbeare such enormities Yet the rebellion of the people of Rome and of other persons in Italie went forwarde and euerie day increased against the Emperour Nauclerus agreeth with Blondus saue that hee maketh Gregorie the seconde then Bishoppe of Rome when Blondus nameth Stephen Platina telleth his tale this way Leo the Emperour the thirde of that name when hee coulde not haue his will at the Bishop of Rome proposed an edict that all men vnder the Romane Empire shoulde take out of their Temples the images of all the holie Martyres and Angels for auoiding of idolatrie as hee sayde and who so did not hee woulde accompt him for an open enimie Gregorie the seconde not onely obeyed not but also warned all the Catholikes so your adherentes call themselues though they be nothing lesse than Catholikes that they shoulde not fall into that errour for any feare or precept of Prince By the which exhortation the people of Italie were so animated that they lacked verie little of chosing themselues an other Emperour but Gregorie interposed himselfe to staie them by his authoritie from doing it Sabellicus adding a thirde cause why the people of Rome and Italie were sore greeued with the Emperour and with-helde their tribute and not long after diuided the Empire which was the continuall impugning of them and preuailing against them by the Lombardes without any helpe from the Graecians Leo sayth he prayed the Bishop of Rome friendly that following his example he would raze the images of Saints out of al the temples in Italie Wherin the Bishop not only would not gratifie the Prince but wrote vnto al the churches that they should continue their most ancient custome That procured Leo passing hatred amongst other Nations but chiefly among the Italiās insomuch that the people of Rome began to consult of the choise of a new Emperour within Italie and the heartes of all Italie were ioyned with them in that attempt and that consent of theirs had broken foorth into an open defection had not the Bishop of Rome enterposed his authoritie and restrained the fiercenesse of his citizens by mollifieng them and admonishing them to persist in their former duetie to the Emperour when as that cōspiracie had alreadie so preuailed that Marinus the ruler of the citie his son the president of Campania being slain by the people the Exarch likewise murdered at Rauenna the cities commons had chosen for themselues new Magistrates Aeneas Syluius euen when hee was Pope Pius the seconde speaking oft his vprore made against Leo the thirde saieth To this rebellion the Bishoppe of Rome did not consent hoping that Leo would be better aduised If the report of other Writers be not sufficient the letters of Gregory the 2. Gregory the 3. wil witnesse no lesse the one writing in the 7. yeare of Leo the other in the 23. which was the last yeare of the raigne and life of Leo the 3. where they call him not onely Emperour but most religious Lord which could not bee if for his impietie they long before had forsaken his obedience as Zonaras the Monke imagineth Gregorie the 2. endeth his letters
and peace by his wisedome to protest and keepe in safetie their wiues children parentes goodes and liues I will not examine the Popes diuinitie in that hee sayth Princes haue their powers of the people which the Scripture sayeth they haue of God this is plaine hee claimeth no power to depose Princes but alleadgeth an example that the people may chaunge their king when hee is not able for frensie or follie to do the duetie of a king And by that concludeth it lawfull for the Germanes to refuse that simple idiote which had the Scepter by succession and elect an other Phi. Though you holde the Pope may not yet you confesse the people may depose their Prince Theo. I tell you not what I thinke but what Pope Zacharie sayde to the Germanes Phila. Doe you like or dislike that hee sayde Theo. I shoulde haue asked you that question but because you preuent mee you shall heare what I saie Zâ—charie toucheth not the causes for which Princes may be deposed but the persons by whom it must bee doone if it bee needefull to doe it and that is by their owne Realmes and not by tribunalles abroade as you suppose Phi. Then it may bee doone Theo. When it shoulde bee doone the whole Realme must doe it and not the Pope Phi. But neither hee nor they can doe it except you first assent that it may be doone There can bee no deposers if Princes bee not deposeable Theo. There may fall extremities when Princes are not able to guide themselues much lesse their Realmes Phi. What be those Theo. I named them before frensie follie As if the right heire to any Crowne be a naturall foole or he that is inuested in the Crowne waxe mad and run besides him selfe In either of these two cases any Realme by publike consent and aduise may choose an other Phi. What vnlikely cases you bring vs which neuer yet fell out in proofe Theo. Yeas that they haue Childerike of whom we spake euen now was deposed by the Germanes for a foole And Charles the 3. the last Emperour of Pipines line Gods iustice requiting his children with the verie same measure that he met before vnto his master was deposed by the same people for * a bedlem As also when Iustinus the yonger was * distract of his wits Tiberius was placed in the Empire Philand You make Childerike a foole because you woulde auoide the Popes power to depriue Princes Theophil If you made him not a foole when you putte him from his right vnder that pretence I doe him no wrong Your Stories blaze him for a frantike foole Blondus and Nauclerus saie they did it Pensantes Regis amentiam considering the madnes of the king Sabellicus addeth thereunto * Regis deliria ineptias the follie and frensie of the king Gaguinus saith he was * homo vecors bellua a verie sotte and a beast and for that cause his title in your Stories is Childericus stupidus Childerike the foole whether hee were or no God knoweth but this wee see they handled him like a foole and the Pope had information against him that hee was Deneger monstrum a monster and not a man and therefore were the causes which they alleadged for this deposition true or no wee greatly care not They pretended a cause sufficient if it were true and the Pope confessed it lawefull for the whole Realme to displace such a Prince as was both vn-fitte and vn-able to beare the sworde Philand But Stephen absolued Pipine from the othe of alleageaunce which hee had giuen vnto Childerike Theoph. High time to absolue Pipine from his othe three yeares after Childerike was deposed and hee placed in the kingdome Regino whence that fable first came of Stephens sicknesse at Paris and his recouerie by a vision of Sainct Denis saieth not a worde of any such absolution but onely that Stephen confirmed Pipine and his two sonnes as lawfull kinges of France and adiured the Nobles not to choose them a king of any other line so long as Pipines race indured The rest is added by Monks and Friers in fauor of the Pope as infinite other thinges are in the accidentes of euerie Age. Howbeit absoluing from others if they be lawfull and good is a greater matter than we yet beleeue your holy father may deale with The wauering of your Stories in the cause of Childerikes deposition for sometimes they vrge a defect in Childerike sometimes they pleade a right in Pipine without the king and aboue the king as hauing the regiment of that Realme and all publike affaires committed to him and his for the space of fourscore yeares by way of inheritaunce before hee sought the crowne this wauering in the cause and curious seeking for absolutions and confirmations maketh many men suspect that your pretences against Childerike were not all true But whether Pipine had better interest to the Crowne of Fraunce than Childerike by reason the Mareschal of the Palace was become the kinges master in so much that the king coulde not commaunde his owne diet but at the Marshals pleasure and was gouerned and ouerruled in al things by him as a boy by his tutor which is the constant report of all your witers touching the state of the Germane kinges when Pipine aspired to the crowne or whether Childerike were an idiote and the last of his house as for the better strength of Pipines title your stories auouch I will be no iudge Childerik I say was deposed by the Nobles and commons of his nation and the Pope being consulted whether it were lawfull for them so to doe made answere they might but added no word of his diuine power to dispose kingdoms to his liking And this for Childerik may suffice For Philippicus the answere is easier Hee was a rebell and slue his Master in the fielde and therefore without any farther cause the Romanes might refuse both his name his reigne To this vsurpation when hee added as they thought impietie it was no maruel to see them so earnest against him But in this as in many other things your later Stories stray from the former The elder sort of Historiographers as Beda Regino Marianus Frisingensis Vrspergensis say The people of Rome decreed that neither his name nor letters nor coyne shoulde be receiued the later as Blondus Sabellicus and Nauclerus haue chaunged their tune and say The Bishop of Rome did it at the clamor and petition of the people Sigebert as indifferent betweene them saith the Bishop and the people ioyntly did it So handsomly you can hammer thinges when they come to your fingering and such credit your Stories deserue when the case concerneth your holy Fathers authoritie These bee all the examples you doe or can bring for the space of a thowsand yeares after Christ where Princes were depriued of their crownes by the Bishop of Rome and these how litle they make for your purpose
right you may conclude hence a iust allegation or a ciuill sedition in the Romanes but no depriuation of Princes by the Pope If by Lewes the thirde you meane Lewes the sonne of Boso for him you may meane and by your indistinct speaking you driue vs to ghesse at your meaning he with violence gate some dominion in Italie putting Berengarius to the worst and by negligence lost not onely that hee gate but his eyes also which hee might haue saued with staying at home mary the doers of it were Berengarius his enimie and the citizens of Verona which betraied him mention of the Pope there is none except you thinke it vnfitte for his holinesse that anie treason shoulde bee wrought without him for that his◠See is so well practised in them Of this Lewes Otho sayth In the yeare of our Lord 905. Lodouike the sonne of Boso getting the Empire expelled Berengarius and hauing the whole kingdome of Italie at his becke dismissing his armie went to Verona with a small traine where being betrayed by the citizens that sent for Berengarius from the place where hee was in exile hee was caught and his eyes pulled out And after that Berengarius helde the kingdom of Italie togither with the Romane Empire So haue wee three Lodouikes ech of them in sundrie writers surnamed Lewes the thirde and not one of them deposed by the Bishop of Rome Henrie the fourth was the first that was troubled with the Popes presumption to depose Princes but hee was so farre from taking it that hee put the Pope besides his cushinne and had him deposed from his triple Crowne not onelie by force but also by iudgement and sentence as good or better than that which the Pope pronounced against him Respect whether you will the cause or the manner of their proceeding eche against other Phi. You crake of this Emperour For that in fine by armes hee droue the saide Pope out of his Sea and placed an Antipape that is to say one so opposite to Christes Vicar as Antichrist shall bee against Christ which by armes and patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolike throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth Theo. We crake not of Princes as you doe of Popes neither do we defend them in open wickednes as you doe Popes in their pestilent disorders and outrages only we say neither your holy father with his proude claime nor you with your smoothe tongues may take from Princes their Crownes without warrant from God of whome they haue their power and by whome they are exalted to their Royall dignitie And therefore if you will play the proctour for Pope Hildebrande in that attempt of his to depriue Henry the fourth leaue wastful woords and spiteful speach and go to the matter Scoffes and taunts are soone cast and recast without any paynes or praise Phi. Because this good and notable Pope was not able in fine to resist the Emperours forces the which Emperour as all the histories of that tyme recorde was a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacal and hereticall person the aduersaries of Gods Church doe triumph as the Libeller here doth ouer the blessed man as Herode might haue done ouer Iohn Baptist whose admonition was taken in so euill grè that it cost him his life as also the executing of the Churches sentence which is Gods hath doone to many a Prophet and Bishop in the worlde Theo. If to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand which was his proper name and whereof neither hee nor you shoulde in reason bee ashamed be a note of rebellious heretiques as you terme them what is it for you to call a Prince on whom by Gods Lawe you are forbidden to rayle a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacall and hereticall person What is it to say that al the stories of that time record the same and to produce none As for Iohn Baptise you may vse his name when you follow his workes Herode was an incestuous Tyrant yet did not Iohn Baptist take the scepter from him nor arme his subiects against him but warned him of the breach of Gods Lawe which hee wilfully committed and the punishment which would ensue at Gods handes farther practices against Herode Iohn Baptist had none and therefore you might as well haue yoked Belial with Christ as Hildebrand with Iohn Baptist. But you must be suffered when other things faile you to haue glorious words which is a right Herodian affection Phi. By the euent of things whosoeuer measureth the right of cause will make a good religion and a good defence of the execution of iustice For so most tyrants might bee iustified for a tyme against all the Saintes of God This Gregorie say they was in fine banished by the Emperour And so was Saint Chrysostome by Arcadius and Eudoxia and dyed in banishment as Gregorie the seuenth did yet they were but homely Christians that woulde iustifie the Emperours and condemne S. Chrysostome Theo. Wee measure not the right of causes neither by the sequele nor successe of thinges for then the Saintes of GOD from the first beginning of the worlde shoulde haue had an euill cause since their successe hath alwayes beene to loose their liues for bearing witnes vnto the trueth Wee make it no reason that Hildebrandes cause was euill because in the ende hee was banished Wee all this while haue stoode with you on this point that neither Hildebrand nor any other Pope had or hath right to depose Princes Your commendation of Hildebrand and accusation of Henry the fourth if both were true are litle to this purpose vnlesse you will reason thus the Pope was a good man and the Prince an euill Ergo the Pope might depose the Prince which were a very rediculous conclusion Phi. The Popes right to depose Princes wee haue prooued before Theo. Not yet that wee see Your authorities came very short of it your examples shorter Some shiftes and sophismes you haue here and there offered vs but so weake that children woulde hardly bee deceiued by them Those you thought being destitute of other helpes to strengthen with examples and hauing searched all the corners you coulde for a thousande yeeres after Christ you finde not one till you come to Gregorie the seuenth who did attempt it but coulde not effect it and lost his Popedome for enterprising it And here you slip from the right of the cause to the praise of the Person which is vtterly impertinent to this purpose For what trowe you is euery thing good that good men doe May you not so commende any vice What sinne is there but some good man otherwise hath fallen into If to measure thinges by their euents bee no sure way to iudge rightly of them what is it to alleage no better grounde for the Deposition of Princes than the bolde attempt of the Bishoppe of Rome Were the Person commended not by the assentation of his
Who rightly considering these attempts will not lament them detest them as the foresignes prognosticatioÌ„s of the ruine of the church And when the composition was made between the Emperor the Suldane that Hierusalem with certaine places neere bordering should be restored to the christians truce remaine for ten yeares the Emperor by letters aduertised the Pope the rest of christendom of this ioyfull newes The Pope cast away the letters would not receiue them with his fautors as men affirmed made a rumor to be spred in Apulia that the emperor was dead Wherupon the cities that yet stood for the emperour inclined to render themselues into the popes hands to kil the Almanes that returned from the holy land or were commorant in Apulia a most barbarous and wicked purpose And lest there should want any thing to the vttermost of al wickednes when Frederik after his arriuing in the holy land sent messengers to Rome to require absolution reconciliation because he had now perfourmed his promise the Pope repelled his petition inioyned the soldiers in Asia to withdraw their help froÌ„ Frederik as froÌ„ a publike enimie It was not enough to fil the Princes hands with ciuill warres when he should prepare against the Turk to stop and spoile his souldiers that should accompanie him to inuade his lande sollicite his townes in his absence your holy father must set the Christians when they should fight against the Turke togither by the eares wil them not only to forsake but also to impugne their Emperor What could the diuel himselfe haue done more if he had bin couched in the Popes chaire than Gregorie did Phi. These things Gregorie himselfe denied the Italians that since haue written reiect them as false Theo. So had they need For if they should confesse them they must yeeld the Pope in so doing to be rather the foreman of Satan than the Uicar of Christ. And therefore your Italian Stories presuming all that the Pope saide in defence of himselfe to bee true and all that hee claymed from the Empire to bee his raile on Frederike in great choler as on a wicked and faithlesse Prince and acquite the Pope as doing his dutie in all these counterplots But Italian wittes are too well knowen to be trusted when they are offended and in Blondus a man may soone perceiue an intemperate heate against those Princes that withstoode the Pope Phi. You dislike our stories and we dislike yours Theo. May you dislike your owne and such as then liued and honoured the See of Rome hauing no iust exception against them but only that they could not apparel the Popes pride with some smoth deuises as the Italians do Phi. Not long since you praised Blondus haue you now cast him out of conceite Theo. I did commend Blondus for his diligence where affection did not interpeale him But in this case drawing all thinges to his appetite the more diligeÌ„t the more daÌ„gerous He not only taketh euery word that Gregory spake for a Gospel but addeth of his own head such things as Gregory neuer obiected to Frederike that with no small spite For where Frederik complained to the Princes of Almanie how iniuriouslie and deceitfully the Pope had dealt with him amongest other thinges whiles hee was in the seruice of Christ against the Turke how the Pope had surprised a part of his kingdom with armes Gegory in his letters replied that because Raynold Frederiks captaine inuaded the kingdome of Scicily the speciall patrimonie of the church least the See Apostolike should thereby be impugned his Legates entred Frederiks kingdom found many ready to submit themselues This is all that Gregory pretended who woulde not spare to speake any thing that with any colour he might in his owne excuse and against Frederike Blondus finding this to be but a simple cause for the Pope to inuade the Emperors dominion in his absence in that seruice first for so much as the right of Scicily was in strife between the Empire the church of Rome secondly for that if Scicily were held in fee of the church of Rome yet Frederike was right heire vnto it by the mother side in ful possessioÌ„ of that kingdom before he was made Emperor therfore wel Raynold his captaine might put ouer souldiers into Scicily to man the forts for al occasions to containe them in their duties whatsoeuer should happeÌ„ to his master in that voiage against the Turk But other inuasâ—oÌ„ preiudicial to the church of Rome the princes captaine neither needed nor coulde make any Bondus I say perceiuing that Gregories pretence woulde seeme but a quarel sought of purpose to make a rebellion against the Emperour whiles he was from home helpeth the matter with certaine additions which are both odious and slaunderous Frederik saith he ready to take ship saile froÌ„ Italie was so far froÌ„ asking the Popes absolution benediction that making one Rainold the gouernor of the kingdome of Scicilie in plaine words willed him to oppresse the Pope and Clergie by all meanes Blondus might haue doone well to tell vs who stoode by and heard these wordes which Gregorie would neuer haue omitted if he had knowen them And if the Pope that sifted his words and deedes with all diligence knew no such thing how shoulde Blondus so many yeres after come by the knowledge of them The other obiection that he despised the Popes absolution is as foolish For as soone as he was landed on the other side and began to march towardes the Turke Platina confesseth that he was very earnest both by letters and messengers to be absolued by the Pope from his excommunication and could not obtaine it To haue delt therefore with the Pope before his going to be absolued had beene in vaine the Pope doubting that he would not goe and refusing as your selues confesse to absolue him when he was there arriued and encamped against the Turke Phi. The Pope would not absolue him because he went about to make peace with the Turke The. The Pope would euer haue some cause to molest him otherwise I see no reason to mislike the peace For whether the Turke stood in feare of him or was to be distracted emploied about other wars I know not the Emperor had not bin there a yere but the Turke was glad to yeeld him the kingdome of IerusaleÌ„ sauing the Temple a few Castles to hold peace with him and Christendom for ten yeres Which conclusion as it was honorable in it selfe so was it acceptable to all Christian states saue only to the Pope mary he of meere malice against Frederike when the letters were brought that should aduertise him of the Emperours good successe threw them away and shewed him-selfe much agreeued with the matter as one that did abode the Princes speedie returne would disappoint him of his hope And he missed not his
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
then did whē he spake these wordes and so the case doth not concord Phi. Wee take Princes deposed if they stand out to be intruders and so by your owne rule may debell them with armes Theo. Proue first you may depose them and then if they yeeld not vse your right Phi. Wee take them for deposed Theo. So did the Iewes take Christ for a blasphemer of God and deceiuer of the people and yet that nothing impeached his sanctitie or sinceritie The Princes right may not goe by your thoughtes You may quickly perswade yourselues what you list as you teach the boyes girles with vs to pretend conscience when in deede they should blush at their shamefull ignorance Phi. What the Scottish Ministerie defineth in this question is plaine by the verdict of Iohn Knokes their mightiest Prophet the argument of a treatise of this matter being set downe by himselfe thus If the people haue either rashly promoted any manifest wicked person or else ignorantly chosen such an one as after declareth himselfe vnworthy of regiment aboue the people of God such be all idolaters cruel persecutors most iustly may the same men depose and punish him Theo. Were it in a point of doctrine or part of faith it had yet some shew to charge the rest with one mans verdict but in a singular superfluous assertion it hath no more ground than if we should pronounce al Popes to be coniurers Atheistes because Iohn the twelfth and Syluester the second were such or suspect al Spaniardes to be as louing to their brethren as Alfonsus was to Ioannes Diazius whose head he claue a sunder with an hatchet and the Romanistes to be as vertuously disposed as euer were Petrus Aloisius the son a famous citizen of Sodom or Paulus the third his father a fit bishop for Gomorra which ywis would offend you Knokes booke I haue not seene and therefore the circumstances I doe not knowe yet the verie wordes which you bring proue that hee spake not of Princes entering by inheritance but of Magistrates promoted by electiō that not a part of the people but the very same States that elected by their common cōsent may forsake their Gouernor if he shew himself vnworthy of the regimēt but whether he meane they may do this by the law of God in all kingdoms or by the lawes of the Lande in some places these wordes doe not expresse only hee sayth they that promoted any may iustly for these causes depose them which we grant to be true if the lawes of the Realme warrant the promoters in that action as in some places they doe If his meaning be otherwise as we see not his reasons so we receiue not his speaches though by his owne wordes he bee cleane out of our question for he saith not that men may beare armes against inheritours but that they which choose one Gouernour haue the same right to choose another if hee be vnfit which is nothing to Princes that inherite nor to subiectes that are absolutely bound to obey as in this Realme and some others they bee Phi. So Luther also the Protestantes Elias being asked his opinion of the Almanes confederacie made at Smalcalde against Charles the fift their lawfull and noble Emperour answered that in deede hee was in doubt for a time whether they might take armes against their supreme Magistrate or no but afterward seeing the extremity of things and that religion could not otherwise be defended nor themselues he made no conscience of the matter but either Caesar or any waging warres in his name might be resisted Sleidan also recordeth that the Duke of Saxonie and the Lantzgraue gaue this reason of their taking armes against their supreme Magistrate For asmuch say they as Caesar intendeth to destroye the true religion and our ancient libertie he giueth vs cause enough why we may with good conscience resist him as both by prophane sacred histories may be proued The same writer reporteth the like of the Ministers of Magdeburge declaring how the inferiour may defend himselfe against the superiour compelling him to doe against the truth and rule of Christs lawes Theo. It was skill not to report these places as you found them least you should open their meaning which maketh nothing for you and bewray your malice in omitting the limitation of their wordes to serue the licenciousnes of your weapons Luther as a diuine taught constantly and truely that no Magistrate should be resisted exception to that doctrine hee sawe none in the word of God as at this day we doe not but that subiection was due to the Magistrate were hee tyrant heretike or infidell subiection he ment to obey the princes will if it were agreeable with Gods or else to indure the sword if the Prince opposed himselfe against God Yet when Charles the fift determined to warre with the Princes and cities that had renounced the Pope and the Germane Lawyers made euident demonstration that the free States by the lawes of the Empire might defend their liberty against Caesar him selfe if hee would impugne it to whom they were not subiect but with that condition no libertie more vrgent or necessarie than libertie of conscience Luther not reuersing his former opinion but expoūding himself with an other position which he alwayes held that the Gospel doth not bar nor abolish any politik lawes resolued that in such extremity hauing the lawes of the empire for their warrāt which he knew not before they might enter a league not to displace Caesar as you do but to defend themselues and their ancient freedom against Caesar or any that would disturbe them in Caesars name This is the right intent o◠Luthers wordes and this I weene you will hardly refute or conuert to your purpose Luther saith Sleidā had alwaies taught that the Magistrate should not be resisted his book of that matter was extāt Yet whē the lawiers in that cōsultatiō had proued that the lawes of the Empire permitted resistāce in som cases that this was one of those cases which the lawes did mention Luther plainly cōfessed he was ignorant therof before that any such thing was permitted by the lawes of the empire because the gospel doth not repeal nor abolish the lawes of any cōmonwealth the time was now so doutfull dangerous that not only the lawes themselues but the very force of cōscience necessity did leade thē to armes he said they might make a league to defēd thēselues though Caesar or any in is name wold wage war against thē The Duke of Saxony the Lātzgraue made the same reply to the Emperor when they were proscribed by him If the Emperor say they had kept his bōds couenants we would haue done our duties but because he began first to make the breach the fault is his For since he attempteth to roote out religion subuert our liberty
he giueth vs cause enough to resist him with good conscience The matter standing as it doth we may resist as may be shewed both by sacred and profane stories Vniust violence is not Gods ordināce neither are we bound to him by any other reason than if he keep the conditions on which he was created Emperour The same defence was alleaged not by the ministers but by the magistrats of Magdeburg So our religiō liberty left vs by our forefathers may be permitted we refuse no kind of duty that ought to be yelded to Caesar or the empire Now by the lawes thēselues it is prouided that the inferior Magistrate shall not infringe the right of the superior so likewise if the magistrate exceed the limittes of his power cōmmaund that which is wicked not onely wee neede not obey him but if he offer force wee may resist him I aske not what fault you can find with their answere but what propinquity or neernes hath your fact to theirs They were magistrates and bare the sword in their own dominions you are priuat men wāt lawful autority to vse the sword Their states be free may resist any wrōg by the lawes of the Empire you be subiects simply bound by the lawes of your coūtry to obey the prince or abide the pain which the publike state of this realm hath prefixed The germane Emperor is elected his power abated by the liberties prerogatiues of his princes that ow not many seruices those cōdicional The Queene of England inheriteth hath one the same right ouer all her subiects be they Nobles or others And that which is most to be detested in you they hauing so good warrāt for their interprise did but ioin togither to saue thēselues their coūtries from seruitude subuersion you hauing nor one of those reasōs to iustify your doings take arms to pul the prince frō her throne to shorten her dayes with violence Phi. We haue better reason for our doings than the Germans had for theirs We haue the lawes of holy church the iudgemēt of Christs vicar to bear vs out Theo. The church of christ hath not to do with deliuering or drawing the tēporal sword She cānot make lawes for princes crowns neither cā she licence priuate men to stād in armes against a Magistrat much lesse cā the Pope whose presumptuus proud medling with the swords scepters of earthly princes no law gods nor mans but of his own making did euer alow If this be al the warrant you haue for bearing arms against your prince the Germans for ought y◠I see may be commēded for retaining their liberty you not excused for impugning autority Phi. The Protestantes of al sects do both hold practise it England it selfe specially alowing of the same And therfore there is no treason in this case if we folow the present diuinity of Englād nor new exāple if we respect the furious attēpts rebelliōs of Scotland Flāders Frāce Germany against their superiors for maintenāce of their heresie al wel alowed by the ministery of euery prouince And vpō these exāples you shold look my masters of Englād whē you make so much adoe for one poore cōmotion made in defence of the catholiks in 26. yeares space of the greatest persecution tribulatiō that euer was since Gothes Vādals times Where if the Q. had holden her ancestors faith had ruled ouer so many protestāts but a quarter of the time afflicting thē as she hath done catholiks though perhaps not her selfe so much as her vnmerciful Ministers her Maiestie should haue seene other maner of attempts against her state and quietnesse than haue fallen by Catholikes either in England or Ireland in this her raigne Theo. A boulde face a bitter tongue bee your best obiections throughout your booke The Protestants you say of al sects do both hold practise it England it selfe specially allowing of the same How loud a ly the first is we haue already seen now to the rest The tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we do not alow so may we not cōdemn the poore afflicted christians our neighbors before we heare them what they can say for their defence Admit thē to their answere then if their attempts be like yours or themselues of the same minde that you are we reiect their doings as hateful before God man no lesse than yours Your Spanish inquisitions French massacres where you murdered men women children by 1000. 10000. against the very grounds of al equity piety charity humanity without cōuicting accusing or so much as calling them before any iudge to heare what was misliked in them are able to set graue men good men at their wits ends to make them iustly dout since you refuse the course of all diuine humane lawes with them whether by the law of nature they may not defend themselues against such barbarous bloodsuckers yet we stand not on that if the lawes of the land where they conuerse do not permit thē to gard their liues when they are assaulted with vniust force against law or if they take arms as you do to depose princes we wil neuer excuse thē frō rebelliō Phi. Then they may resist but we may not Theo. Your liues are not hunted after for religiō as theirs be nothing is attēpted against you wtout due course and triall of law towardes them no law is obserued no punishment is laide on you but by the full consent of the Nobles and Commons of this realme that openly decreed in Parliament The Friers presume to put them to death vpon his sole authority that hath naught to doe with other mens subiectes you meane to depriue Princes they seeke no farther but to defende themselues not denying to their princes any tribute subiectiō or honor which the lawes of their Countrie require onely they will not haue the Pope ouerrule Princes as his maner is and tease them on to all kinde of tyrannyes These bee differences enough betweene your warres and theirs and yet for my part I must confesse that except the lawes of those Realmes doe permit the people to stand on their right if the Prince would offer that wrong I dare not allow their armes Phi. What their Lawes permit I know not I am sure in the meane time they resist Theo. And wee because wee doe not exactly know what their Lawes permit see no reason to condemne their doinges without hearing their answere Phi. Thinke you their Lawes permit them to rebell Theo. I busie not my selfe in other mens common-wealthes as you doe neither will I rashly pronounce all that resist to bee rebels cases may fall out euen in christian kingdoms where the people may plead their right against the Prince and not bee charged with rebellion Phi. As when for example Theo. If a Prince shoulde goe about
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
and from whence we looke for our Sauiour euen the Lord Iesus Christ. Phi. All the places which are yet alleaged against you you haue shyfted off by referring the speaches to Christ him-selfe sitting in heauen and as you say not in the sacrament But Theodorets woordes are so cleare that no shift will â—erue Hee speaketh of the very mysticall signes and Sacraments which are seene with eyes and touched with handes and of them hee sayth Intelliguntur ea esse quae facta sunt creduntur adorantur vt quae illâ— sint quae creduntuâ— The Sacraments are vnderstood to be the things which they are made are beleeued and ADORED as being the same which they are beleeued Theo. Onely Theodoret of all the fathers that euer mentioned adoration spake of the Sacrament it selfe The rest direct their words to Christ raigning in glory not to the host or Chalice in the Priestes hande Hee in deede speaketh of the mysticall signes which the rest did not Philand Then yet there is one Father for the adoration of the Sacrament you sayde wee had none Theo. Woulde you prooue so high a point of Religion as this is to bee Catholike by one onely Father and such an one as you thinke not worthy to bee called a Saint Phi. These exceptions are but dilatorie and quite besides the matter Doe you graunt that hee sayth the mysticall signes must bee adored Theo. Hee sayth so Philand And such vpstarts as you are woulde bee credited against him when you say the Sacrament is not to bee adored Theoph. Wee reason not about our credite but about your conclusion Philand That is too plaine for your stoare Theo. Why doe you then conceale it so long Phi. You shall soone heare it and haue your belly full of it The mystical tokens bee adored sayth that auncient Father Theodorete Marke nowe howe nimbly we come within you ouerthrow you in plain field If you deny it we haue here antiquitie for it If you grant it then are you worse than miscreants for holding all this while against it Theo. With such weapons I thinke Alexander the great did conquere the worlde Phi. When you come to a non plus then you fall to idle talke But leaue digressing and giue vs a short and direct answere which wee knowe for your heartes you can not Theo. You knowe much but if you knewe your selues and your owne weakenes it were better Phi. Did I not tell you this place would ouerthrowe you Theo. Because hee sayth the substance of bread and wyne must be adored Phi. Hee sayth no such thing but the mysticall tokens must be adored And what are the mysticall tokens but the mysteries themselues which are all one with the Sacrament Theo. Can you take the top and the tayle and leaue out the myddle so cunningly Phi. Wee leaue out nothing Theo. Theodorets wordes are Neque enim sigra mystica post sanctificationem recedunt a sua natura Manent enâ—m in priore substantia figura forma videri taâ—gi possunt sicut prius Intelliguntur antem ea esse quae facta sunt creduâ—tur adorantur vt quae illa sint quae creduntur The mysticall signes after consecration doe not depart from their owne nature For they remaine in their former substaunce and figure and forme and may bee seene and touched as they were before but they are vnderstoode to bee those thinges which they are made and are beleeued AND ADORED as being the things which they are beleeued The mysticall signes not departing from their owne nature but remayning in their former substance are adored By this you may prooue if you bee so disposed that the creatures of bread and wyne must bee adoren which perhaps in your Church is no fault because it is so often But the Church of Christ abhorreth it as a wicked impietie to adore any dead or dumbe creature And therefore you must bee driuen as well as we to seeke for an other and farther meaning in Theodorete otherwise you will shake the foundation of your owne fayth with your owne antiquitie more than you shall doe ours Our answere is easie The mysticall signes hee sayth are adored but not with diuine honour and adoration with the Grecians as also with the Scriptures when it is applied to mortal men or creatures signifieth onely a reuerent regard of their places or vses Your owne Lawe sayth In hoc sensu possumus quamlibet rem sacram adorare id est reuerentiam exhibere In this sense wee may adore any sacred thing whatsoeuer that is giue it due reuerence So that you vtterly ouerthrowe both your adoration and your Transubstantiation when you brought Theodorete to tell vs that the substance of bread is adored that is reuerenced and yet remayneth after Consecration For if it remaine what adore you but the substance of a dead creature And that if you doe howe many steppes are you from open Idolatrie Thus though wee crake not of our conquests as you doe wee returne your authorities for adoring the sacrament as either impertinent or insufficient giue vs cause to consider that your worshipping it with diuine honour is no catholike or ancient veritie but a pernicious and wicked noueltie Phil. Is it wickednes to worship Christ Theop. You defile the name of Christ spoile him of his worship by giuing them both to senseles creatures Phi. How often shall we beate this into your dull heades that we giue this honour to the Sacrament and not to senseles creatures Theo. And howe often shall wee ring this into your deaffe eares that the Sacrament in corporall matter and substance is a senseles and corruptible creature Phi. Did not Christ saie this is my bodie Theo. You must prooue the speach to be literall as well as the wordes to be his Phi. Is not the letter plaine this is my bodie Theo. The letter is so plaine that it killeth the carnall interpreter and hath driuen you whiles you would needs refuse the figuratiue and spirituall constructions of Christs words to these absurdities and enormities which haue euen ouerwhelmed your Church Phi. Can you wish for plainer wordes than these this is my bodie Theo. I could wish that in expounding these wordes you did relie rather on the catholike fathers than on your vncatholike fansies Phi. All the fathers with one voice toyne with vs in this doctrine Theoph. You doe but dreame of a drie Summer Not one of the auncient fathers euer spake of your reall presence or the literall sense of these wordes on which you buyld the rest Phi. Will you haue a thousand places for that purpose or if varietie of writers do rather content you wil you haue three or four hundreth seuerall fathers all auncient and catholike in diuers ages and countries that shall depose for our doctrine in this point Theo. I can enter a course to saue you
resisted the Popes power in whole or in part euer since the conquest This Land subiect to him neither as Christs vicar nor as Patriarke of the west Apol Cap. 4. sect 25. Bishoppes may preach wihout Cesars leaue if they submit themselues to Cesars sword as the Apostles did The Iesuites cunning in playeng with the worde Supreme as they doe What the Iesuits imagine of the word Supreme The wordes of the oth be sound eâ—ough if they cease peruerting them Ruler and Prince be as doubtfull as gouernour if men be disposed to cauill Bishops be called Rulers Princes Kings Queenes Heb. 13. Act. 20. In. 1. Cap. epist. ad Titum Idem in 3. Ca. 1. ad Tim. Lib. 4. Cap. 33. Morali in Iob. In 49. ca. Esaiae Euerie of the faithfull is a King and a Priest Reuelat. 1. 1. Peter 2. Lib. Cap. 37. Idem lib. 4. Cap. 24. Ibidem Princes are Bishops and Priests Euagrie tom epist. 2. Idem Oceano eodem tom Exod. 24. Iosua 24. Iudges 8. Iudâ—th 6. The ground of al their absurdities is the cauilling at 〈◊〉 words The gouernment of Princes Prâ—ests are distinct Gouernours of this realme none is but only the Prince This is the profound Logike of Rhemes A right Frier that will neuer be answered though the Sophisme be neuer so grosse Only Princes beare the sworde within their owne dominions If only Princes beare the sword they beare it in al things as well spiritual as teÌ„porall where the sword is required The sworde must be vsed in spirituall things and causes as wel as temporall Princes caÌ„not be defenders of the faith officers of the Church but by means of the sword 1. Tim. 2. The sword ordeined chiefly to preserue godlinesse and honesty among men The sword of Princes is supreme in that it is not subiect to the Pope must be obeyed of al in things that be good These bee right Iesuiticall conceits The true supremacie of Princes The Papists in euery stile which they giue the Pope make him supreme Caus. 25. quaest 1. § Nulli fas Acclamationes in fine Concil Triden Sess. 25. Supreme gouernour doth not touch Christ so nere as Supreme Bishop doth which is the Popes vsuall stile 1. Pet. 5. 1. Pet. 2. My Kingdom is not of this world Ioh. 18. Who made me Iudge ouer you Luke 12. Princes must be indured whatsoeuer they coÌ„mand but not obeyed agaynst the faith or canoÌ„s of the church In temporall things Princes may not frustrate the lawes of their progenitors nor the liberties of the people Lib. 4. cap. 27. Constit. 131. de Eccle. Canon Al godly princes haue admitted the Canons of the Church Constit. 6. Athanas. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Gregor lib. 9. epist. 41. The Pope obeyed the Princes lawes not against the Canons The Popes name put in steed of the Princes Caus. 7. quaest 1. Scripsit Nouel coÌ„st 83. Item const 6. To be tyed to the saith and canons of the Church doth not diminish their supremacie The Princes sword is not spirituall Ephes. 6. Reuelat. 1. Hebr. 4. The word of god is the spirituall sword The magistrats sword is corporall Mat. 10. Mat. 10. And temporall 2. Cor. 4. How the Papists abuse the word spirituall in extending it to men and matters that they should not They be spirituall which haue the spirit of God 1. Cor. 3. 1. Cor. 2. Gal. 6. Iude epist. 1. Pet. 2. Hieron ad Iulian. tomo epist. 1. Their lands liuings must be spirituall though Saint Paul call theÌ„ carnall 1. Cor. 9. Rom. 15. Mat. 22. Ambros. epist. lib. 5. orat coÌ„tra Auxent The Romish kalender of spirituall things See the tytles of their Decretals Malefactours of al sortes should opeÌ„ly repent before they be receiued to the Sacraments Rom. 13. The goods lands and liuings of Clergie men be Cesars right What things ChristiaÌ„ Princes first committed to Bishops for their learning and integritie the Pope afterward toke theÌ„ vp as his own Bishops the fittest men to deale in these causes but by the Princes power and lawes Bishops by their function may deny the sacraments to such as will not repent but they may not compel or punish any man without commission from the Prince Compulsion correction in all things is the Princes right The sword ordayned chiefly for things spirituall Rom. 7. Ibidem Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Mark 10. Worldly thinges be neither good nor euil for which two causes Princes beare the word The spiritual things which the Pope claimeth are teÌ„porall 1. Cor. 13. 1. Cor. 14. Princes were not ordained to cloaâ—â— the backe feede the belâ—â— â— Tim. 6. Mat. 6. 1. Tim. 2. Godlines and honestie the chiefest causes why Princes were ordained The Prince hath the same charge in the coÌ„monwealth that euerie priuate man hath in his familie Ephes. 6. The parentes charge towardes their children Psalm 34. Deut. 4. Deut. 4. Genes 18. Psalm 101. Dauids charge in his kingdome Religion the Princes chiefest charge Nouel Consti 6. Legum Theod. Nouel tit 2. de Iudaeis Samaritanis Aug. epist. 162. The sifting examining of a Bishop did most pertaine to the princes charge by S. Aug. iudgemeÌ„t Epist. ad LuciuÌ„ inter leges Edward cap. 17. Eleutherius opinion of the Princes charge Inter leges Edward Reg. cap. 17. Pope Iohns opinion of the Princes charge Beda hist. gentis Anglor cap. 32. Gregories coÌ„fession of the Princes charge The king of Englands oth expressing his charge Inter leges Edward cap. 17. de Regis offâ—cio Ibidem The very heathen were of the same opinion Politic. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ibidem cap. 5. In all kingdomes and common-wealthes since the foundation of the earth religion hath been setled defended by the Magistrates sword Their authoritie must stretch as far as their dutie God hath giuen Princes the sword in those thinges which himself commandeth The Priest in no cause may beare the sword The confirming of Rites and Ceremonies needeth the sword The abuse or contempt of excommunication reuenged by the sword The sworde committed to the Prince Rom. 13. His Apostles forbidden the sword Mat. 26. Mat. 20. Bernard de considerat lib. 2. Dominion interdicted the Pope himself Caus. 33. quaest 2. ¶ Inter haec Caâ—s 33. quaest 8. ¶ De Episc. No clergimen may vse the sword no not by the Popes authoritie 2. Cor. 10. Ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 33. The seruants of Christ may haue no earthly kingdome since their master had none Iohn 8. Matth. 10. 2. Tim. 2. Distinct. 96. ¶ Cum. ad verum A Bishop may not vsurp an Emperours name much lesse his sword Distinct. 10. ¶ Quoniam ideÌ„ Cyprian writeth to Iulian an 100. yeares before Iulian was borne The Disciples of Christ straitly charged not to medle with Princely swords The sworde hath beene may be and should be vsed for that which is good in al spirituall things and causes The oth cleared Their absurdities returned on their owne heades
6. cap. 15. Three Lodouikes not one of them deposed by the Pope Henry the fourth was the first that euer was offered dopositioÌ„ by any Pope The defence cap. 5. The defence cap. 5. It is no sinne nor wrong to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand The Iesuites mannerly speeches of the Emperor Acts. 12. vers 22. The defence cap. 5. The conteÌ„tioÌ„ between Pope Gregorie the seuenth and Henry the third Emperour Proue the Popes right to depose Princes we remit the successe That right is yet vnproued The praise of the person is nothing to the right of the cause The defence Cap. 5. Pope Hildebrand a good man Hildebrand might well be a dealer in Berengarius recantation for the goodnes of it The Iesuits should condemne them selues if they should not coÌ„mend Hildebrand Which like they better Peter enduring or Hildebrand displacing Princes Lambert Schaf Abbas Vrsperg The mildnes of Pope Hildebrand What iustice call you that which the Church of Christ for 1000. yeres counted wickednes * Iude epist. * Rom. 23. The defence cap. 5. Lib. 3. cap. vlt. factorum memorabilium The testimonie of the Duke of Genuâ— for Pope Hildebrand See Vrsperpen lib. 5. annalium How knew Baptista Fulgosius the goodnes of Hildebrand that liued 400 yeres before him Lib. 3. cap. 8. de Constant. A noble mans fansie is no fit balance for this cause No reason that Princes rightes should be tried by Italian Dukes The defence cap. 5. Trithem in Chron. If Baptista knew little of Hildebrand Trithemius knew lesse of Henry the fourth Trithemius a man of their side our age is no good witnes in this case Dodechinus in anno 1090. This pestileÌ„t slaunder of Henry the 4. came first froÌ„ the mouth of a rebell that sought to supplant him Three bishoprickes for one sword is no such hainous Symony The Iesuits are content to make their abbasses whoores and their Bishops Sodomites to deface this Emperour The greatest fautors of Hildebrand aliue at the same time with him neuer charged him with these vnclean surmises Dodechinus in anno 1106. Marianus in anno 1075. He that will rebell against his Prince must be a slanderer of his Prince or els he shal seeme to rebell without cause Vita Henrici 4. habetur in fasciculo rerum sciendarum Colonie impresso He toucheth the very crimes that the Iesuites obiect Vrspergeâ—s in anno 1071. It were easie to paint out Hildebrand in his coulors if that were to this purpose Vrspergens in anno 1076. Vrsperg in anno 1080. Vrsperg IbideÌ„ The Iesuites beleeue one rebel against his Prince without prâ—sâ— but they will not beleeue the Bishops Nobles of Italie Germany iudicially pronouncing against the Pope Italy displeased with Henry for submitting himself to Hildebrand Lambert Scafnaburgens in anno 1077. Al the bishops of Italie had condemned Hildebrand for capitall crimes Hildebrand infamous for all vices Hildebrand an Apostaticall Pope He that will see the rest of HildebraÌ„ds vertues let him read Beno the Cardinall of his life and acts The fact and not the life of Hildebrand is the thing which we striue for The pope had his flatterers as well as the Prince Mariage in Priests and obedience to Princes impugned by the names of fornication Symonie Hildebrandes griefe against the Emperor Hildebrandes policie to quell the Empeâ—oâ— These aduantages the Pope had against the Prince Lambert scafnaburg in anno 1077. Hildebrands first attempt was to pull the Clergie from the king The next was to make him self the corrector master of Princes The mysterie of iniquitie sheweth it selfe Men of their own religion haue obserued in HildebraÌ„d as much as I report Auent annal lib. 5. fol. 562.569 sequeÌ„t The Iesuites trust none but Italians such as flatter the Pope as fast as themselues Vrspergens in anno 1076. Hildebrands owne confession for what causes he did excommunicate the Emperor Henry the 4. free from Symony by the report of his verie enemies Lambert Scafn in anno 1075. Did not this prince vehemently detest Symonists Lambert Scafn Ibidem No prince freer in his elections thaÌ„ Henry the 4. If the Pope had coÌ„mitted no worse Symony than heÌ„ry the 4. did the Church had beene in better case than it is The Monkes of purpose diffame the prince to flatter the Pope Vita Henrici 4. in fasciculo reruÌ„sciendarum Henry the 4. abused by his tutors in his minoritie This fault of other men is imputed to the Prince by the Moncks The tru cause why Hildebrand was offended that the Prince should giue spirituall liuings This was the way to pull first the clergie after the people from the Prince Princes were neuer weakened till their clergie tooke part with the Pope against them Hildebrand made it Symonie for a lay man to present to a spiritual liuing Platina in Gregor 7. Vide caus 16. quaesi 7. ¶ Si quis deincept Lustily saide and like a Pope Ibidem This was neuer counted Symony before Hildebrands time Platina in Benedict 2. The Bishop of Rome could not be chosen without the Princes consent Lambert Schaf in anno 1073. Hildebrand wheÌ„ he came to be Pope durst not be ordered without the Princes pleasure That which Hildebrand condemned was long before coÌ„firmed to the Prince by the former Bishops of Rome Distinct. 63. ¶ Adrianus Hildebrand accursed by his predecessours Distinct. 63. ¶ In Synod This was the yoke which Hildebrand could not indure Martin Polon in Adriano Leone 9. Plat. in Pasc. 1. Leon. 8. Sigebert in anno 1111. This was the chiefe quarel between Hildebrand and Henry the 4. Was not this a wise cause to depriue a Prince of his Crowne The Prince was not bouÌ„d to appeare in the popes consistorie Refusing the Popes penaltie is no depriuation in a Prince Any Pastor may remit the Princes sinnes as wel as the Pope Marke the stately proceedings of Hildebrand against the Emperour The diuell himselfe may minister as good Iustice as HildebraÌ„d did The popes arbitrarie penances are no parts of our conuersion vnto God The Pope abuseth the keies to increase his gaine and power How Hildebrand sped with his enterprise The iust reward of a rebel shewed in Rodolph Vrspergens in anno 1080. Sigebets in anno 1080. Hildebrand Prophesieth against himselfe Hildebrand himselfe turned out of his Popedome Sigeber in anno 1084. Vrspergen in anno 1083. Siger in anno 1085. In vita gestis Hildebrand Otho Prisingens li. 6. cap. 35. Depriuation of Princes neuer offered by any before Hildebrande Sigeb in anno 1088. This is right the Iesuites cause Apud Auent lib. 5. fol. 563. Vrspergen in anno 1085. The later writers of the Romish faction to please the Pope coÌ„mend Hildebrand to the heauens Vita Henrici 4. in Fasciculo rerion sciendaruÌ„ That part punished which offended What Hildebrand began the pope that came after would neuer leaue off Three erectâ—â— against Henry the 4. and all slaine The two sons of Hen. the 4.
the meate is performed by those wordes but the vse end of the supper is directed by the other The precept that Christ gaue vs to follow him preciselie concerneth his actions The Rhemish Test. fol. 452. nu 24. take eate To what end is meate if it be not eaten The Rhe. Test. Ibidem Eating and drinking are not essentiall parts of the Sacrament but of the supper they are The Iesuites neglect â—hat â—â—ich Christ 〈◊〉 and busie 〈…〉 which he did 〈◊〉 * Aâ—â— that is 〈◊〉 by the Poet Viâ—gil câ—m faciam vitula * 1. Cor. 11. Mat. 26. * Oâ—ige in Matt. tract 35. Chrys. in 1. Cor. ho. 27. read the very words of Christ in the future tense a Hebr. 10. Christ ordained a Sacrament to be diuided not a sacrifice to be offered * De consecrat dist 2. § Relatum est They binde the Priest to coÌ„municate The Priest charged to do as Christ did The words of Christ rather binde him to distribute thaÌ„ him selfe to coÌ„municate The Priest in euerie priuate Masse doth make a mock of these words take ye eate ye The Rhemish Test. fol. 451. nu 23. in the night The Church must not choose what she will follow but rather obey that which Christ commanded The primatiue Church knewe not what Priuate Masse ment a Apostol can 9. b Contil. Antioâ— caâ—on 2. a Dionys. ecclesi hiâ—rarch cap. 3. b Iusti. Apol. 2. They delaied their wine with water lest meere and strong wine should annoie anie of the communicaÌ„ts c De cons. dist 2. § peracta d Greg. Dialog lib. 2. cap 23. e De cons. dist 2. ¶ Si quis f â—eg Franciae lib. 1. cap. 132. g Rationaìe diâ—â—no officio lib. 4. cap. 53. No priuate Masse in the primatiue Church by their owne confession h Chry. hom 27. in 1. Cor. i Idem hom in dictum Pauli oportâ—t haereses esse k Theod. in 1 Cor. 11. l Haym in 1. Cor. 11. The verie name of the Masse as all auncient writers vse it impugneth their priuate Masse The Lordes cup rasâ—ly taken from the people Mat. 26. Luk. 22. The cup was deliuered at the same time to the same persons with the bread ergo both or neither pertaine to the people Gâ—râ—rd Lorich de missa publica â—râ—rogâ—nda If your owne â—â—mpanions 〈◊〉 tell you 〈…〉 take 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 consciences m Mat. 26. n Mark 14. o Luk. 22. The blood of Christ was shedde for the people as well as for the Priest the cup therefore belongeth to the one as wel as to the other p Chrys. hom 18. in 2. Cor. One cup proposed to all both people and Priest q 1. Cor. 2. r 1. Cor. 11. s 1. Cor. 10. S. Paul extendeth Christes words drinke you al of this to the whole Church The people of Corinth by S. Pauls instruction receiued from Christ himselfe were partakers of the Lords cup. * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text * In 1. Cor. 10. The latin fathers receiued those wordes we all are partakers of one cup into S. pauls text 1. Cor. 11. Did S. Paul speake these wordes to the Priests alone or to the people also 1. Cor. 12. We all as well the people as the pastours The Iesuites cannot take the cup from the people without subuerting these maine places of Scripture and parts of Christs institution The Catholike Church ministred the communion to the people in both kinds a Dionys. eccles hierarch ca. 3. b Ignat. ad Philadelphâ—ens c Athanas. in 1. Cor. 11. d Cyprian lib. 1. epis .2 e August quaest super Leuiticum li. 3. cap. 57. f De conse dist 2. ¶ quia passus g Chrysost. hom 18. in 2. Cor. h De cons. dist 2. ¶ quid sit sanguis i Theoph. in 1. Cor. 11. k Hay in 1. Cor. cap 10. l Paschas de corpo saâ—gui Dom. cap. 43. Their halfe communion is so Catholik that the master of their sentences 1200. â—eres after Christ knewe it not m Sentent lib. 4. dist 1â— De consâ—â—ist 2. ¶ comp Glosâ— sa ibidem 1300 yeares after Christ there was no communion in one kinde but in case of necessitie As though the Church could haue cause or power to chaunge Christes ordinance Rationale diuinor officio lib. 4. cap. 42. Two weightie reasons for their communion in one kinde Gerson tract contra haeresin de communione Laicorum sub viraque specie The Catholik considerations for which the the Church of Rome abolished Christes institution To followe Christes institution is adiudged to be heresie and accursed with our late Romanists What the ancient Church of Rome thought of this mangling the communion De cons. dist 2. § Cum omne The people must haue the bread and the cup deliuered them seuerallie and asunder in both kindes Leo serm 4. de quadragessima The Manâ—châ—es the first authâ—â—s of the 〈…〉 〈…〉 in them as 〈◊〉 â—â— cons. dist 2. § Coâ—perimus To â—nstaine fâ—om the Lords cup is sacrilege Artic. 2. contra I pâ—sâ— Sarâ—â— To forbeare the Lords cup is sacrilege in all persons and ages as well as it was then in the Manichees Leo speaketh of Lor◠〈◊〉 though Gelasâ—us diâ—â—â—nt and calleth it sacrilege in them to reframe the Lords cup. Mat. 26. * 1. Cor. 11. a Chrysâ—st â—â—mi 18. in 2. Coâ— b De câ—â— dist 2. §. quâ—a passus c Theâ—phil in 1. Cor. cap. 11. d Paschas de â—â—rpore saâ—g Dom. cap. 43. If it be sacrilege in the Priest it is no lesse in the people They woulde haue it to be sacrilege to withstaÌ„d their fansies and to follow Christs commaundement Esa. 5. We maie wel forsake them that forsooke both God and their fathers before them The Iesuites can not heare of eating and drinking at the Lordes table on the peoples behalfe because they haue discharged them froÌ„ both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 10. Ioan. 6. The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. nâ— 21. â—you can not drinke The sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. fol. 447. Ibidem Their proofeâ— for the Sacrifice of the Masse The Rhe. Test. Ibidem They wil proue their sacrifice by S. paul himselfe God graunt you may haue eyes to see your follies Not one of all these scriptures or fathers maketh for the Sacrifice of their Masse The generall order of the Romish Religion is to keep the fathers phrases and to chaunge their faith How the Lordes supper maie truelie be called an oblation and a Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one of them is the popish Sacrifice There are four kindes of Sacrifices in the Lords supper and not one
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede