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A72527 The relection of a conference touching the reall presence. Or a bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. / By L.I. B. of Art, of Oxford. Lechmere, John.; Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? Conference mentioned by Doctour Featly in the end of his Sacrilege. 1635 (1635) STC 15351.3; ESTC S108377 255,450 637

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alloquitur haec definitio non placet age praesta te Magistrum nos doce quid aliud vocatio Dei esse possit quando Deus vocat dicit appellat nominat Hoc verbum Dei est cum inquit Hoc est corpus meum sicut in Genesi ait Fiat lux fit lux Deus est qui nominat seu vocat quicquid nominat id illico praesto est vt Psalm 33 testatur dixit facta sunt Ibidem Item Irenaeus ait Quomodo autem rursus dicunt carnem in corruptionem deuenire non percipere vitam quae à corpore sanguine Domini alitur Hic iterum audimus corpus nostrum eo cibari corpore sanguine Domini vt in aeternum viuat non corrumpatur vt Haeretici somniabant Irenaeus loquitur de corporali manducatione cibatione corporis tamen vult cibum illum esse corpus sanguinem Domini Ibidem He brings there also the Sacramentarians Euasions and refutes them out of Irenaeus words cleere plaine in so much that it cānot Si quispiam mihi persuadere potuisset in sacramēto praeter panē verum ego captum me video nulla euadendi via relicta textus enim Euangelij nimis apereus est potens Epist ad Argentin habetur tomo 7. in Epist Farrag be auoided auouching withall that it was the Fathers tenet So likewise doth Melancthon Melancth l. de Ver. Corp. Quid fiet in tentatione cum disputabit conscientia quam habuerit caussam dissentiendi à recepta sententia in Ecclesia Tunc verba ista hoc est corpus meum fulmina erunt Ibidem Sequor saith he veteris ecclesiae sententiam quae affirmat adesse corpus in coena ac iudico hanc habere Scripturae testimonium I follow the sentence of the auncient Church which affirmes the bodie to be presēt in the supper I iudge it to haue the testimonie of Scripture Those who stood on Featlies side were such as by Apostacie had gonne out of the true Church Archidiaconus Andegauensis anno 1035. Docuit paruulos non esse baptizandos teste Guit mundo eiusdem temporis scriptore Hanc autem Haeresim esse constat vniuersalis ecclesiae testimonio idemque fatentur Angli Protestantes Berengarius who Malmesb. l. 3. recanted Sacerdos Pastor de Lutterworth anno 1371. Wickleff Archidiaconus VVittembergensis Lutheri discipulus Carolstadius Pastor Tigurinus Swinglius Ex monacho Apostata Oecolampadius Nouiodunensis Deus adeo hunc Haereticum percussit vt desperata salute daemonibus inuocatis iurans execrans blasphemans miserrimè animam malignam exhalarit Schlussel in Theol. Calu. fol. 72. idemque testatur Hieron Bolsecus in eius vita That Luther Caluin Swinglius Carolstadius Oecolampadius had beene Papists as they speake before they fell into their Heresies is declared out of their owne authors in the booke de Auth. Prot. eccles l. 2. c. 11. Caluin See the Censure pag. 274. Iudas and that great Apostata the See the Censure pag. 274. Deuil I do not mention Touching this Bertrame reade the Plea for the Reall Presence against Sir Humfrey Linde by I. O. Bertram because he that makes any speach in him Caluinisticallie Protestāt in this matter doth withall make him cōtradict himself it is the same of that Concerning this Homilie and the Author see the Prudentiall Balance l. 1. c 19. in Odo and Alfrick c. 22. n. 4. Homilie which is cited as Elfricks and thereby casts him of The Iudge of Controuersies is according to our Aduersaries themselues either the scripture or the Spirit If wee goe with the Controuersie to the Scripture to our Sauiour speaking in it the cause is ours This is my bodie which is broken for you Which words if they be certainlie true in a proper and literall sence then wee are to yeeld the whole cause reall Presence propitiatorie Sacrifice and Adoration saith D. Mortō the last who wrot in England before Waferer of this subiect I haue said oft and now repeate the same againe that the litterall sence or letter cannot be retained in these words of Christ Cited p. 293. This is my bodie without establishing the Papisticall transubstantiation saith Beza If we go with the Controuersie to the Spirit in the Church we gaine the Cause too for all knowne Churches in Luthers time did beleeue and professe it If to the Spirit in the first Protestantes Luther and his Disciples the Cause is ours If wee consider diligentlie the circumstances of the text 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my owne bodie that which is deliuered broken crucified for you and of the blood in like manner vt supra pag. 11. wee are more and more confirmed in our tenet If wee reade the Fathers wee finde thē to be ours the Lord of Plessis Mornay had obiected out of them by the help of his Ministers what he could but he is fullie answered by the worthie Cardinall Peron in a iust tome of this subiect onlie which booke he were to refute that would laie claime to Antiquitie in behalf of the Sacramentarian Heresie Moreouer that our tenet of the Reall presence of our Sauiours bodie vnder the signes was the tenet of Antiquitie the Church tells vs the Church I say in Luthers daies and before a thousand yeers together in which Church there haue beene innumerable great Schollers examining Recordes reading the Fathers comparing and considering the text of Scripture and this Church tells vs the Fathers their predecessors taught them as they teach vs. Why should wee not beleeue them in a matter so plainlie deliuered in the Scripture rather then Daniel Featlie or Oecolampadius or Iohn Caluin If you will moue vs with Authoritie bring greater Authoritie If you will moue vs with Scripture bring plainer Scripture and more worlds openlie in plaine termes interpreting it against vs. The Authoritie of one Deuine of a Nation will not serue against a world The Doctour obiecteth S. Augustine but against S. Augustine as hereafter will appeare He obiecteth Tertullian and Origen and against Tertullian and Origen they in this point were not diuided from the world But had Origen or Tertullian beene opposite in their opiniō who so mad as to follow them against so great an authoritie as the Church To oppose a lesse Authoritie to a greater thereby to think to winne the cause is absurd If Authoritie can moue the greater it is the more it moues To vrge against the Church the words of any in As when a man speakes of the practicall dictio or vocatio which is a making of the thing by saying it is or calling it by the name Ipse dixit facta sunt Lazare veni foras Adolescens tibi dieo surge to interprete h●s words of a meere speculatiue dictio or vocatio Qui est à terra panis percipiens vocationem Dei iam non communis panis est sed Eucharistia ex
Catholikes that neuer sawe Master of Art in his habit It is onli● Christs bodie in the Eucharist as it is crucified in the Eucharist But it is onlie sacramentallie meaning in a signe crucified in the Eucharist Ergo it is onlie sacramentallie meaning a signe in the Eucharist For the Solution whereof if you demaund of anie Catholicke i● our Sauiours bodie crucified in the Eucharist he tels you No. demaund againe is it there indeed reallie he Answers yes so I haue beene taught and I beleeue it And heereby Master Waferer though he knowes not the termes of Art He denies that which is your Maior A Scholler will tell you further of another sence of the word shed whē it is attributed to the Sacramentall cup and of the word broken when it is attributed to the bodie which you did not reflect vpon when you made your Argument The bodie blood of our Sauiour the lambe sacrificed for the world are heere in the species of things inanimate which existence by reason of the exteriour formes giues occasion when wee speake of the sacred actions that are exercised towards or about them to vse that kind of speach which was proper to sacrifices of that kind whereof some were solid and drie others liquid among the solid was bread which was broken to signifie the soueraigne dominion of Almightie God Leuit. 2. among the liquid was wine which to the same end was powred out vpon the Altar hence those words powred out or shed and broken are vsed to signifie the action of sacrifycing when the things offered or sacrificed be in formes inanimate of bread or wine and euen by our Sauiour himself This is my bodie which is broken for you 1 Cor. 11. this is my blood of the new testament which is powred out or shed for many Matt. 26. This breaking for and shedding for is vnbloodie sacrifycing Which Caluin espied also and confessed when he expounded the breaking in S. Paul Calu in Epi pri Cor. panis quem frangimus frangi saies he interpretor immolari But the Apologist obiectes againe out of the word shed Howeuer it be shed saith he it moueth being powred out if it moue it is in a place if in a place then either circumscriptiuelie or definitiuelie Heere it appeares that as before I noted he speakes of shedding according to the ordinarie common acception of the word without reflecting on the other acception according to which neither this nor the former Obiectiō hath any kind of apparēce For a thing may by consecration be put vpō the Altar in the forme of wine without any locall motion of it And this presenting of it on the altar by turning not it into an other thing but wine into it donne to signifie the soueraigne dominion of allmightie God is one part of the sacrification which wee call vnbloody the other part is the putting of the bodie on the altar by consecratiō in the shape of bread and both these make one representation of the bloodie sacrifice and oblation on the Crosse But you are not yet accustomed to consider how words are extended by reason of analogie in the matters to an equiuocall kind of signification whereof in the mysteries of Christianitie yea and in other matters too there are frequent examples wherefore I come neerer to your conceptiō and in answer to your doubt tell you first that as a thing may be in place either per se or per accidens so may it be said locallie to be moued either per se or per accidens your soule in your hand and the blood of our Sauiour heere Supra pag. 471 seqq are in loco per accidens I told you before more of this Secōdlie those two modi which you speake of do not sufficientlie distinguish or expound that which wee call being in a place God is in the world yet neither of these two waies and our Sauiours bodie in the Sacrament though not either of these wayes which you speake of The veritie of Gods word doth inforce a presence distinct from both those and to suppose there is none distinct is in you that are Christned an hereticall begging of the Question Insteed of a third replie you demaund whether wee beleeue that thing in the Sacrament which you describe by transubstantiated bread wine to be the price of our Redemption I answer that I beleeue Iesus Christ who told vs that that thing in his hands in the forme of bread was his bodie deliuered for our sinnes and that thing in the chalice his blood shed for vs. This Master Waferer though you shrink and crie Alas fond faith is part of my Creede That our Sauiour was borne of the Virgine Marie is most certaine I beleeue it And I beleeue him haue I not cause that was so borne I willinglie ioyne with Antiquitie with the Catholike and vniuersall Church of this Prince of peace this Emmanuel this Virgins-Sonne this Heire apparent of all that God hath Ioan. 16. who trulie said Omnia quaecunque habet Pater mea sunt euen his Diuinitie his knowledge his omnipotēcie wherby He Iesus he was able to make good his promise the bread which I will giue is my flesh to verifie what he did affirme this in forme of bread is my bodie Whilst you censured this faith as fond did not your conscience trouble you Master Waferer and whē you named the price of our redemption in the cup did not your memorie suggest vnto you those words of S. Augustine before discussed where he said that Iudas the traitour and a Deuill drank it Iudas that tooke it not by the waie or meanes of faith but onlie with his mouth yet he tooke it he tooke that himself an infidell quod fideles cognouerunt precium nostrum That precium was not in the cup before consecration S. Ambr. lib. 5. de Sacr. c 5. but after it was there Heare another as ancient and his Catechist when he came into the Church Ante verba Christi calix est vini aquae plenus vbi verba Christi operata fuerint ibi sanguis efficitur qui plebem redemit Before the words of Christ the Chalice is full of wine and water but when the words of Christ haue wrought there in the Chalice is made the blood which redeemed the people Apol. pag. 89 So he But Master Waferer wiser then he Alas fond faith if so you beleeue Lord help your vnbeleefe This is all the little he had in this matter to replie he had wearied himself it seemes in the former Section his string was broken too he could not shoote rouing bolts as before he did and therefore is now contented to lie downe Will you see how he lies hauing nothing els to do till he goes into the next Section I will loose a little time in counting how manie lies I finde heere in one page the first of this Section taking in that the sence be cōpleate