scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
whatsoeuer wee doe Also To geue to them that are newly Baptised a temper of mylke and hony and from the day of their Baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after v. As touching Purgatorie and Praying for the dead But for Purgatorie and Praying for the dead because his whole booke is of that matter he is most profuse in charging that auncient true Church both fathers and people thereof and therfore I must stand the longer hereabout specially because the Reader shall sée therein as in a notable example to what shamefull confessions against them selues they are driuen whensoeuer they take in hand to answere throughly to any learned Catholike that hath throughly written of any controuersie And first I will shewe what he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times secondly of the whole Churche in some of those times thirdly of the glorious originall that they referre it vnto and lastly of the shamefull original or head that he referreth it vnto and them also for it j. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it And for the first to beginne alowe and so goe vpwarde Pur. 158. Bernard saith he is a very late writer and therefore his authoritie with vs is of small accompt in such cases as he followeth the common error of his time I take this in the way without our compasse yet not without good cause that conferring the times both within and without those first .600 yeares thou maist beholde how he chargeth both a like Well then to come nowe into our compasse Pur. 166. of S. Gregorie thus he saith When the proofe commeth you leape but 600. yeares from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I will not denie but you may haue great store of such stuffe And not afore that time likewise Theodoret was an .100 yeares before S. Gregory Pur. 123. and what of him and his time Oecumenius and Theodoretus saith he were writers about that time when corruption of doctrine had greatly preuayled Againe before that time from the yeare .430 vp to .360 much about one time these did florish Augustine See M. Rishtons table Ambrose Hierome Paulinus Efrem Chrisostome Basil and Epiphanius And what of them and their time I haue alreadie rehearsed what he saith of S. Augustine vpon his booke De cura Pur. 315.317 that he woulde hold the common opinions receaued in his time and that he was willing to mainteine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time 349. As againe If he had diligently examined the Common error of his time of prayer for the dead he would not so blindly haue defended it as he doth in that booke De cura pro mortuis agenda and else where And againe In celebration of the Sacrament 326. the superstitious error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remembrance of some in the prayers as of Monica Patritius the parents of S. Augustine 78. Againe But Augustine speaketh of the amending fire in the place alleaged by M. Allen. He doth so in deede but Augustine had no ground of that fire but in the common error of his time 161. And againe Concerning Augustine that error of Purgatorie was somewhat risely budded vp in his time Then of Paulinus 322. Purgatorie in those dayes was but euen a breeding and yet not throughly shaped out of prayers for the dead and such other superstitious ceremonies as were vsed about the departed How handsomly he agréeth here with him selfe I dissemble till * Contr. 46.47 the 11. Chapter Nowe of Ambrose and others Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead as it was a Common error in his time Pur. 320 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Beda Ephraim Ambrose Moreouer Chrysostome and Ieronym allowed prayers for the dead 194. 370. Then of Epiphanius Because the olde Liturgies vsed to make memorie of all sortes of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time that this memorie was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c a signification that they were inferior to Christ a simple cause why they should be remembred but this shift he is driuen vnto So S. Augustins exposition of the like practise 279.280 August euc 110. ad dul q. 4. saying When the sacrifices either of the Altar or of any kind of Almes be offered for all men departed and baptized for the very good they are Gratiarum actiones thanks giuing for them that be not very euill they are Propitiationes procurements of mercy for the very euil although they be no succor to them being dead yet they are certayne comforts to the liuing He condemneth it likewise in these words These matters stand al vpon a false supposition that any prayers are auailable for the dead which when it can not be proued it is in vaine to shew who taketh profite by them who not And so much of that time yea and of more then that time where he said before the times of Efrem and Ambrose Let vs now ascend to Constantinus Magnus his time who was the first full Christian Emperour and beganne his raigne soone after the yeare .300 Pur. 313. In the buriall of Constantinus sayth he there is mention of prayer for his soule according to the error of the time which was * Inough for any Christian man the time euen of the first Nicen Councell also and he buried in the Gréeke Church at Constantinople Long afore that againe about the yeare .200 florished Tertullian and Origines of that time so he saith after a certaine saying of Origens alleaged By this place it is manifest Pu. 249. that Origen whom notwithstanding here a little after we shall haue for the founder of Purgatorie and the East Churche in his time acknowledged no Purgatorie paines Againe This one testimonie of Origen shall testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes Pag. To Origens place I must answere in the ninth Chapter but nowe doe you say on I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somwhat forwardes in as much as there was the seat of Antichrist appointed to be set vp Where by the waye may be noted his For the .xii. Chapter ignorance being the foundation of his malice that he knoweth not all the old heresies to haue sprong of the Gréekes wherevpon also were holden in the Gréeke Church those first foure generall Councels against them and not of the Latines but contrawise the Romaine Church specially to be commended of the fathers Vinc. Lir. cap. ix Ruf. in expo Symb num iii. For maintaining alwayes most earnestly susceptae semel Religionis integritatem the puritie of
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
are exaÌ„ples of such appeales out of all prouinces namely of the Patriarks of Alexandria Constantinople S. Austine himself Epi. 162. in the cause of Cecilianus B. of Carthage deposed by the bishops that began the Schisme of Donatus vseth it as a plea the Cecilianus was readie causam dicere apud caeteras ecclesias extra Africam To be iudged by the other Churches out of Affrike Neque enim de presbyteris aut diaconis aut inferioris gradus clericis agebatur For the matter was not about any priestes or Deacons or inferiors of the Cleargie but about Bishops qui possunt aliorum Collegarum iudicio praesertim Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum causam suam integram reseruare Who may reserue their cause whole to the iudgement of their felowbishops specially of the Apostolike Churches where also he saith In Romana Ecclesia semper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit principatus The Princedome of the Chayre Apostolike hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church Also by the Councel SardiceÌ„se ca. 7. in the same Carthage Councel cap. 3. whose authoritie none of those African Bishops did denie for the same Bishops were of it that were of the Nicen S. Austine ca. 7. did expresly admit in the cannon of the Inferiors appealing from theyr owne Bishop Thirdly by the Nicen Councell also wherevpon you say very insolently trusting ouermuche your lying Lutherane friendes the Magdeburgians in their Centuries that S. Augustine and his fellowes tooke those Popes with plaine forgerie and falsification of the Canons of the Councell of Nice and fetched them meetly well ouer the Coles for it You imagine that their Catholike grauities were as maleperte with the Popes of their time as you and such other skipiacks be at this time Cleane contrarie to the whole storye of that time and the very wordes and déedes of those Affrike Councels them selues where we reade no otherwise of those Popes then of such as were honored of all for their holines both in their liues and also after their death euen to this day And if you of your heades will call all forgerers and falsifiers which aleaged for Canons of the Nicene Councel more then are conteined in those twentie how many of the Auntients shal you spare yea or S. Augustine also himself How often doth he aleage the Nicen Councel against the Donatists about baptisme How often do all aleage it about Easter day and against the Arrians for many other matters not once mentioned in those Canons And therfore as you had no cause to inuent this forgerie so also the African fathers had small cause as any man may perceaue by this to stand so much with the Popes in those Appeales of Bishops from prouinciall Councels by which their doing for all that can not be inferred any thing against the Popes authoritie aboue prouinciall Councells no more then against a generall Councels authoritie aboue a prouincial For at this day also Catholike Kinges and Bishops stand with the Popes by the Councell of Trent by his owne grauntes pragmatical compositions c. in the right of geuing benefices of Appealles c. with his owne good leaue without any preiudice to his Superioritie vnles you thinke the good kings be preiudicial to their own Crowns when they are content to trie by lawe with their Nobles clayming some priuiledge in the kings royalties Ar. 37. Soc. l. 7. c. 11 So. li. 6. c. 10 But most ridiculous of all you be where you alleage Socrates the Nouatian speaking against P. and S. Celestinus for taking awaye the Nouatians Churches in Rome as before hée touched S. Chrysostome also for the like in Asia and counting it a point of foreine Lordship not of Priesthood Nouatians Secularem is not foâ—reiâ—e â— you transâ—aâ—â— but vvorldly specially in their owne cause may not depose Neither yet doth hée denie the Popes Supremacie ouer all in carping that facte no more then he denieth S. Chrysostomes Superioritie in the compasse of his Patriarkship of Constantinople As litle is it to your purpose Ar. 37. that the forsaid Aphrican Councell cap. 6. decréeth that any Primate of Afrike shall not be called princeps Sacerdotum aut Summus Sacerdos prince of priestes or highest Priest but onely thus Primae sedis Episcopus the Bishop of such or such a first See What perteinech this to the titles and much lesse to the Primacie beeing the thing of the Bishop of Rome whom the Africans them selues as appeareth in S. Augustines works neuer called Primae sedis Episcopum but Aug. e. 157 Apostolicae Sedis Episcopum the Bishop of the See Apostolike ij About onely faith For only faith thus you say Pu. 320. Which of your Prelates will folowe Ambrose in his commentarie vpon the Epistle to the Romanes where he so often affirmeth that a man is iustified before God by faith onely And againe Cyprian taught Pur. 287. that faith onely doth profit to saluation To. 2. ad Quirin ca. 42. And that he beleueth not in God at all which placeth not the trust of all his felicitie in him onely de duplici martyrio And once againe Pur. 81. What Origens iudgement was concerning Satisfaction for sinnes he declareth sufficiently in his 3. booke vpon the Epist to the Rom. cap. 3. where often times he repeateth that a man is iustified before God by faith onely affirming that in forgiuenes of sinnes God respecteth no worke but faith onely as he proueth by the parable that our Sauiour vsed to Simon the Pharisee Luke 7. and answereth also those obiections which euen the Papistes at this day make against vs for teaching that faith only doth iustifie vs in the sight of God The same which in the last chapter I declared to be S. Paules meaning to wit that a man may be iustified by faith Ca. 8. pa. 4 although before his faith that is before he was a Christian before he was a Catholike he did not good workes but euill workes the same I saye doth S. Ambrose and also Origen expresly declare to be their meaning also and it is false that you say Origen to answer our obiections which we make against you for teaching that the good workes which after faith Christ worketh in vs doo not augment our iustification He that onely beleeueth saith Origen is iustified etiamsi nihil ab eo operis fuerit expletum although no whit of works haue bene done by him S. Cyprians woordes in Latine are but these thrée Fidem tantum prodesse faith onely to profit Cyp. Test ad Quir. lib. 31.42 meaning that faith profiteth and without faith nothing profiteth alleaging his Testimonies for it accordingly that Abraham beleued God it was reputed to him vnto iustice Gen. 15. and If you will not beleue you shall not vnderstand Esay 7. according to the Septuaginta The booke de duplici Martyrio is thought to be supposition coyned by Erasmus though that saying which you alleage is of it selfe Catholike inough
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
terme call the boulke of a thing As for the interior substance that question belonged to his Incarnation not to his assumption whereof nowe they talke Neither may any Logician thinke it straunge for the worde Substantia to be so vsed if he consider well howe the worde Corpus is vsed in the predicament of Quantitie though it be otherwise a species of Substantia But the mysticall likenes saith the Heretike chaungeth at the least his former calling For it is no more named that which it was tearmed before but it is called Body Therefore also the veritie in heauen must be called God and not Body Not so saith the Catholike It is named not onely Corpus Body but also panis vitae Bread of life And so likewise the body in heauen we name it Diuinum corpus viuisicum dominicum docentes non esse commune alicuius hominis c. The diuine and viuificall and Dominicall body teaching that it is not a common one of some mans but our Lordes Iesus Christ who is God and man Where you sée that suche a difference as he putteth betwene our common bodies and our Lord Gods body the like he putteth betwene common bread and this bread of life which therefore with him is Christes body vnder the forme of bread béeing thereby become as properly bread as coÌ„mon bread is bread and not the common substance of common bread which no man can say to be bread of life vj. About the Sacrament of Penance Now to approche nearer to Purgatorie about the Sacrament of Penance the Church of God saith foure things First that by the Priestes absolution the guilt of sinne is remitted and so the penitent reconciled to God and therefore pardoned the eternall payne of hell Secondly that after this remission for all that he may yet be in debt of some temporall payne Thirdly that he may and must pay the same temporall debt by workes of Satisfaction Fourthly that vpon good cause a Bishop may pardon it in parte and the Pope wholly Against these foure points Fulke alleageth saying Absolution Pur 168. But what auayleth this submission to Gods ministers when the Priest doth not by his Absolution take away one houres tormentes in Purgatorie as both M. Allen him selfe in effect confesseth and the master of Sentences also teacheth It auayleth to take away the eternall torments of hell Is that nothing with you When you be in them your saucie tong would giue all the world for the least touch of the fingers ende of Gods Priestes whom now in your hereticall pride you despise farre more then the riche Iewe did poore Lazarus Temporall debt remayning after Absolution Agaynst the second you alleage Augustine and Chrysostome euen against themselues for in the third chapter pag. 16. you confessed them both to stand for Purgatorie which implieth debt of payne after remission of sinnes But go to what saith Austine He saith quoth you of the deaths of Moises Aaron Pur. 42. Aug. in vet Test lib. 4. ca. 53 that they were signes of things to come not punishments of Gods displeasure This is your sinceritie His wordes immediatly afore be these When it is said to them Vt apponantur ad populum suuÌ„ that they should be gathered to their people It is manifest that they be not in the wrath of god which separateth from the peace of the holy eternall societie And thereby it is manifest that also their deathes were signes of things to come which things he there declareth and not punishments of Gods indignation You sée how precisely he speaketh to wit of Gods wrath indignation which punisheth by death to separate from his people for euer least he should haue spoken contrarie to the most manifest texte and to him selfe a litle before where he said that God foretolde them both quod ideo non intrarent that therefore they should not enter into the lande quia non eum sanctificauerunt because they doubted of his gifte that water could flowe of a Rocke And so is the text it selfe moste euidently Nu. 20.27 Deut. 32. You shall not bring this people into the lande but you shall dye because you did not beleeue me because you offended me because you trespassed against me And yet you will not graunt that for their sinne the fault béeing remitted they were punished by death These are they that will not stand agaynst euident Scripture Likewise about the example of Dauid you say Pur. 43. I would wish no better authoritie of the auntient Fathers then euen that which M. Allen him selfe alleageth out of Augustine contra Faustum li. 22. cap. 67. that the punishment of Dauid was flagelli paterni disciplina the chastisement of Gods fatherly scourge as he doth moste playnely declare the same in his booke De pec mer. ac rem li. 2. ca. 23. Is suche authoritie so good to proue that after the fault is forgiuen that is after the sonne is receiued againe into fauour no payne is owing Belike then you scourge your children that offend not aswel as them that haue offended and them also that haue offended you scourge not only after that you haue receiued them agayne into fauour but also after that you haue pardoned them all punishment Then surely are you as wise a father as a diuine No reasonable man but hearing of a fathers scourge would by by gather of it punishment for some offence where you gather the contrarie A fathers scourge ergo no punishmeÌ„t But your author S. Augustine doth not so In the chapter before commending his humility sub flagello dei 2. Reg. 16. vnder Gods scourge when Semei so diuelishly reuiled him he reporteth how Dauid said Meritis suis hoc redditum superno iudicio That this was executed vpon him by Gods iudgement for his desertes that is for the same matters of Vrias wherof he speketh in the place by you alleaged out of the Chapter following and saith that the Prophet Nathan told him quòd acceperit veniam that he had forgiuenes ad sempiternam quidem salutem as to euerlasting saluation But notwithstanding as God had threatened him flagelli paterni disciplina non est praetermissa The fatherly scourges chastisement was not omitted to the end that both for his confession of his sinne he might be deliuered euerlastingly and by such affliction he might be tried temporally Where also he commendeth him for not murmuring agaynst God as if he had sent him a false pardon of his sinnes Intelligebat enim c. For by his profound wisedome he vnderstood but that God was gratious to him confessing and repenting how worthy his sinnes were of euerlasting paynes for the which sinnes being beaten with temporal corrections he saw that vnto him continued the forgiuenes and Phisicke withall not neglected So expresly he saith that he was beaten for his sinnes for his deserts although withall it was Phisicke for him and prâ—bation Neither in the other place De pec mer. doth
Virgine was breaking of her vow and the fall of those men was denying of Christ in persecution but they make not against Pardons no neither of those most heinous sinnes vnlesse you thinke that the Churches binding is preiudicial to her lowsing both being giuen her of Christ For what els doth S. Ambrose there but bind that virgine as béeing her Bishop to do penance al her life Inhaere poenitentiae vsque ad extremam vitae c. Sticke to penance euen to the end of thy life and presume not that pardon may be giuen thee of mans day for he deceiueth thee that so promiseth thee For thou that hast in special sinned against the Lord because she was his vowed spouse it is meete that of him onely thou looke for remedie in day of Iudgement So that all her life he bindeth her to penance bidding her not to hope for any pardon at his hands The Emperour Theodosius he bound also Theo. hist li. 5. ca. 17. though indefinitely but after eight monethes penance loused him again with a pardon Who séeth not that all this maketh playnely for pardons and not against them Likewise S. Cyprian in that Sermon and in twenty Epistles at the least maketh playnly for Pardons in that he doth no more but reproue them that be giuen partly of such as had not authoritie to louse at least those deniers as of Lay martyrs of méere Priestes partly of suche as had authoritie but without cause without moderation and to vnpenitent persons partly moste of al both these defects concurring But otherwise although being Primate of all Affrike he reprehended a certaine Bishop for geuing pacem peace to a certaine Priest Cyp. ep 59 before he had done poenitentiam plenam full penance which manifestly was a Pardon contra decretum de Lapsis contrarie to the Councels decrée touching such deniers Pacem tamen quomodocunque à Sacerdote dei c. Yet saith he being once giuen by a Bishop the Priest of God in what maner soeuer we will not reuoke it and therefore we permit Victor to enioy the leaue to communicate which hath bene graunted him NotwithstaÌ„ding that to those Impenitents trusting also but in lay mens pardons he crieth as you alleage Nemo se fallat c. Let no man deceiue him selfe Cyp. sermo de Lapsis let no man beguile him selfe onely our Lord can giue mercy onely he can graunt pardon to sinnes as beeing coÌ„mitted agaynst him Homo Deo esse non potest maior nec remittere aut donare indulgentia sua seruns potest quod in dominum delicto grauiore commissum est ne adhuc lapso hoc accedat ad crimen si nesciat esse praedictum Iere. 17. maledictus homo qui spem habet in homine Man can not be greater then God to louse the impenitent whom God bindeth neither can the seruaunt who hath no commission remit in part or forgeue in the whole with his indulgence that which by so great a fault was committed against the Lord least furthermore to the fallen person be added this cryme also if he be ignoraunt that it was forespoken Cursed is the man that hath his trust in man Mat. 10. Dominus orandus est Dominus nostra satisfactione placandus qui negantem negare se dixit Our Lorde must be prayed vnto our Lorde must by our satisfaction be pacified who hath saide that he will denie his denier His seconde Epistle is to those Martyrs in prison instructing them not to giue pardons them selues nor to appoynt the Bishops so or so to pardon him and his and him and his but to make their suite for those whose Poenitentia est Satisfactioni proxima penaunce is very nighe to satisfaction that is almost all fulfilled and to remitte the matter to the Bishoppes power Note the antiquitie of pardons sicut in praeteritum semper sub Antecessoribus nostris factum est As in time past alwayes it was done vnder our predecessors And yet Epistle 54. the Councell giueth a plenarie to all the Deniers at once that were doing their penaunce because of another persecution at hande Epistle 52. he sheweth Clerus Romanus Sede vacante appoynted that the like pardon should be geuen to euery one in extreme sicknes But I forget my selfe to alleage so much béeing here onely to answere vij Of Purgatorie This Chapter is growen to such length and yet is Purgatorie behinde But the gentle Reader will consider I trust howe lightly any beast may trouble the pure water but that it is not so soone cleared agayne not doubting also but the varietie passeth away his wearinesse As I am likewise studious of method to put all in conuenient order for the same cause And the order that in this part I thinke good to follow is to speake first of the Churches practise and then of particular Doctors Of the Canonicall memento of Oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church First then to proue that for a certayne space after the Apostles there was no praying for the dead at least in some Churches this Companion reasoneth ab authoritate negatiuâ— negatiuely of the authoritie of Iustinus Martyr and of Tertullian to which I must ioyne Origen Epiphanius and a Councell of Spayne though him selfe vnmindfull in one place what he saith in another playnly 〈…〉 Puâ— â— affirmeth that such an argument euen of all mens authoritie is false Therefore thus he saith Seeing it is certayne by testimonie of Iustinus Martyr that there was no mention of the dead in the celebration of the Lords Supper 〈…〉 for more then an hundred yeres after Christ we must not beleeue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Wel then Chrysostome your elder ones affirmeth it as more at large you confessed the same in the 3. and 7. Chapters but you and certain of the contrarie by his elder Iustinus What be Iustinus his words Where you recite them you say agayne Pur. 259. By which it is manifest that in those first and purer days there was â—o mention at all of Sacrifice for the dead But no word so in Iustinus Yea in reporting there the order of the 〈◊〉 â—ist he saith expresly that the Bishop is long about it Iust Apol. 2. in fine you also after he is comâ—â—o Consecration And when he hath ended Those prayers and the Consecration all do answerâ— Amen as also at this day we sée at the later Eleuation where the Consecration is concluded In that long space you can find no time for memento domine defunctorum But certayne it is and manifest say you that there was none and that Chrysostome and al his felowes must not be beleued You might as wel say that in S. Augustines time also there was no mention of the dead Aug. epist 59. q. 5. because he also reporteth sometimes the summe of the Canon without naming the dead yea that your owne