Demonstration The office which is needlesse in the Church is vnlawfull Demonstration The Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it Eph. 4.11 Ergo. Eph. 4.11 To the Maior This demonstration is rather follie then fallacie Remonstrance the Medium or proofe there is needlesse In deed lesse need of this then of that before Bare neede maketh you demonstrate after this sort your argument is but mistaken It is not à non necessario sed ab independente My answer therefore is Not euery thing seeming needlesse in humane preiudice is foorth with vnlawfull in Gods diuine iudgement To the Minor This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor that the Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it The Demonstrator is as bold as any man and as blind as whosoeuer but boldnesse and blindnesse are the two helpes As for the reason that the ministerie is perfect without it it is an vnperfect reason For as iustly may he say the office of a Christian King is needlesse in the church because the ministerie is perfect without it This is a doubtfull clause to leaue the ministerie in speculation not in action or to consider of the being of the ministerie not of the well being of the same Let this one word serue for your answer if you will be answered The perfectnesse of the ministerie doeth not ouerturne the needfulnesse of gouernement or direction by the Archbishop I dare auouch hee knoweth not wherein an Archbishops office here consisteth That which is needlesse is vnlawfull c. Retortion of the argument The office of Church-Aldermen ouer all men and all maners is needelesse in our Church where a Christian magistracie is established alreadie and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it Ergo it is vnlawfull in the Church and none but T.C. idest thanklesse curiositie would bring it in place Or this That which is needlesse is vnlawfull All courtes of Record as Chancerie and Common pleass c. shall be found needlesse if the Consistorie of Presbyters and Elders were set vp which is onely needfull or else full of neede in the Church or congregation of the faithfull brethren because they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charitie may be as the Admonitioner saieth Ergo all Courts of Record as Chancerie Common pleas c. by their reason will be found all vnlawfull Thus then we reason out of their owne grounds What office soeuer is needlesse idest is not necessarilie required in the Church the same is vnlawfull The Christian princes supreme gouernment in causes ecclesiasticall if wee beleeue these men is needlesse for the learned discourser who saieth the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate T.C. saith no lesse who findeth no difference betweene an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermedling in church gouernment iumping therein with Harding and other papists Ergo by this assertion the princes supreme gouernment is vnlawfull which vnsound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth not only of this assertion but of infinite other their speeches Or thus The office which is needlesse is vnlawfull The hauing of an Eldership in euery congregation is needles for one Eldership in the towne serueth for the whole country belonging to Geneua where neuerthelesse they haue diuers Churches and their seuerall ministers And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the seuerall congregations yet these Churches were reformed will you say Likewise the hauing of a Doctor in euery congregation and Deacons to be of the Eldership is an office needlesse for they haue them not so in France or Scotland though most of our platformers require both Ergo the hauing of an Eldership or of Doctor or Deacons to be of the Eldership in euery congregation are offices vnlawfull By which examples also appeareth the falshood of the Minor because the ministerie is perfect without those in such places and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirme the Eldership Doctor and Deacon to be needlesse The 4. Demonstration If all giftes for perfecting of the Church needfull be appropriated vnto other ministers Demonstration then is his ministerie vnlawfull But all are appropriated to those foure Ephesians 4. Pastor Doctor Elder and Deacon whereof hee is none Ergo. This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is as bad a Paralogisme as T.C. his simple Syllogisme refuted at large in the defence of the answer to the Admonition Remonstrance pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlepoole because he drowneth himselfe and his scholers in it Thus Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue all gifts needfull c. But all those functions reckoned of Paul Ephe. 4. 1. Cor. 12 haue the gifts needfull ergo those functions onely are sufficient for the Church As if a man did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture Absurditie of T.C. and of the Demonstrator But all things in the Aue Maria are contained in the Scripture ergo those things in the Aue Maria are onely sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those only are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers of London are endued with reason ergo the Costerdmongers of London are the onely men Where the Maior is particular the argumentation of sole particulars and hath no force of reason the Medium or argument hath this word Onely in the Maior cum subiecto and is left out in the Minor Besides all this it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure against the lawe of due conclusion finally it lacketh both moode and figure and lacketh no fault To the sequele of the Antecedent The sequele is vntrue for dealing with the Church stocke thēselues say it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons yet Act. 11. the collection was sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the administration not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the priests or ministers yet this not vnlawful in them To the Assumption Both sides backe and bellie turne which side you will hereof is a shamelesse vntrueth for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church but he doeth tie and vntie conferre and bestow the gift on such an office which is fit for the commoditie of the Church in what measure he pleaseth Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text therfore thus I reason If all giftes needfull for perfecting of the Church be appropriated vnto the Ministers mentioned Ephes 4. then the ministerie of Elders and Deacons is vnlawfull much lesse is it needfull for perfecting of the Church But by the Demonstrator and his customers of whom he boroweth all needfull gifts are appropriate to Apostles Euangelists Prophets nowe wholie ceased as they saye and
is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill ecclesiastical gouernment Now to apply these more neerely by the authoritie the bishops haue in this realme a matter so impugned by these men It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop that for two causes First in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of one familie but reacheth ouer many seuerall families and congregations of people Another for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes not only what not to do but he is appointed also what to doe whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie but onely negatiue what they may not doe in that gouernment as not to wound nor kill wife childe nor seruant c. As for supreme authoritie whether Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall absolute or limited our bishops neither haue nor claime It is that which they cōdemne in the Pope by this place as well for that as successor of the Apostles he claimeth both swordes all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose sinon actu saltem habitu as Bellarmin distinguisheth as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall he claimeth and vsurpeth not onely Seigneuriall but euen tyrannicall authoritie For he saith he may iudge all and be iudged by none may carry millions of soules to hell and none may say to him Domine curita facis Sir why doe you so may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure may pardon sinnes past to come for so long or short a time as him listeth and in matters of Ecclesiastical liuings nay in all causes may doe what he list and therefore is iustly condemned by this place as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly absolute and tyrannous authoritie There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie which they haue partly from God partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate From God they haue either first to plant or else to gouerne and direct Churches already planted to ordeine ministers and deacons and likewise the vse of the keies either by loosing the penitent according to Gods worde or binding the impenitent which last is done by admonition reprehension suspension excōmunication and by anathematisme The three first of which censures are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the supper The last two though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops yet not so but that other ministers of the worde vnto which the keies are annexed may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them if the lawes of the Church for weightie causes doe not otherwise dispose which they haue done here in England as I take it by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommunication and anathematisme by lawe doe worke and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permitted to euery minister in his cure that haue but slender skil no direction of lawe in this behalfe none autentique seales to certifie of record nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes that lie in such cases as de cautione admittenda de excommunicato deliberando c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God and not of man but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where the compasse of territorie howe farre the manner howe with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities and also their iurisdiction Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdiction sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes for the sounder execution thereof and better bridling of offenders as to burne an Heretike to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate aboue 40. daies with such like Lastly they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie in whome as supreme Gouernour all iurisdiction within her dominions aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill by Gods and mans lawe is inuested Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops are causes of titles of benefices matters of maintenance for Ministers vpholding of Churches and Churchyardes of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces testamentarie diffamatorie where there is breach of charitie and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasticall being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates authoritie and supremacie which they haue vnder God By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops and of the factious Consistorials the first whereof deriueth their iurisdictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from God and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bishops in England may any way exercise for they of the faction attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees without the Princes authoritie both precedent and subsequent and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate it is remediable by appellation the last resorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe who heareth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth that our Bishops neyther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bishops that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vnder God and the Prince moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes deriued for the moste parte from the Prince and reformable by her Not supreme not absolute not tyrannicall not Seigneuriall nor Lordely according to the Rulers luste And therefore no way touched or meant much lesse by these places condemned as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillfully or truely importeth But out of these groundes thus wee reason and bende the nose of the Cannon against themselues If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places as they would inferre then is all greater and more absolute authoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall much more to be condemned But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authoritie but supreme vnder God and that in all
answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders Remonstrance but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life they might as well say that the commaundement to drinke no water were meant by that place The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle if it did so yet could it not helpe you for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle no nor anie mention by the way of them The 17. Demonstration That which is in euery ministers commission must be in euery congregation Demonstration But the ordination and practise of this office Mat. 28.20 is so or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ Ergo they must be in euery congregation Ex nihilo nihil fit Of nothing commeth nothing Remonstrance This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space betwene these two go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teache all nations Ergo make vnpreaching Presbyters in all nations This the Demonstrationer made the Ministers Commission afore and is it nowe the Commission for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place The reason of the Minor is false for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation neither doeth their authoritie for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only vpon that Commission which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments The 18. Demonstration Where a Bishop must be Demonstration Elders must be A Bishop must be in euery Congregation Ergo Elders This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant Remonstrance for this serueth your turne often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better knowne then the other there must be parish Bishops Ergo parish elders And it followeth not by any coherence any more then this There must bee a Constable in euery towne Ergo 24. Aldermen The 19. Demonstration If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches Demonstration then there must be Elders in euery congregation but the first is true Ergo the second For S. Paul saith thus I teach in all Congregations To the Antecedent This is the fallacie of consequence Remonstrance The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline but left not any policy for Lay elders The consecution of the maior is false Can there be none vniformity except such your Elders were euery where appoynted who indeede were nowhere To the Assumption S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome doctrine all good order for the Church but neuer institute the particularities of your discipline The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates Demonstration which these Elders would abridge Answere of the Demonstrator No more then the eldership in Dauids time did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel for his gouernment is temporall theirs is spirituall O foolish answere Remonstrance and fond conceite of an imaginable Elderdership in Dauids time who can abide this Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment but Kings and Queenes noursing fathers and mothers of the Church haue but ciuill and temporall gouernement onely ô tempora ô mores or as the learned discourse saith The prince is but a feeling member of the church the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie is a little touched afore and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration Gualt 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate Answer of the Demonstrator Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magistrate He is as partiall as D. Whitgift It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church or rash excommunication Remonstrance with reply then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall or where hope of repentance is he is not partiall nor he that taketh part in a good cause As for Gualters opinion if hee vtterly denie excommunication Pro Coelio Nolo cuiusquam fortis illustris viri vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude coniungere But it is vntrue to say he simplie denieth it or if hee did erre herein doth he therefore erre in the other But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point for his errout as you fansie in the other then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had Answer That is no truer then to say the Prince hath authoritie to preach which he must see done The Eldership you say may make ecclesiasticall lawes Remonstrance with replie may censure and excommunicate In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates doe you not denie her Supremacie as for any ordaining shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it but God forbid shee should claime it as they very absurdly doe HIErgo by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done but it is certaine Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet in maintaining this imagination as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie especially when you say and T.C. before you that the princes must subiect them selues and submit their scepters and throwe downe their crownes before the Church and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie Absurditie of the Demonstrator Princes must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall which the Prince must but see done then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe necessarie vnder Christian princes as in the Apostles time The 1. Demonstration The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines Demonstration the more neede they haue of Elders but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace Ergo. To the Maior Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest Remonstrance the more neede of discreete ouerseers not those pragmaticall busie-body elders To the Minor Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde for that were a foolish thing Our dayes are blessed dayes blesse God for them This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt
Episcopo suo nec Ecclesiasticam disciplinam cum fide quiete iuxta praecepta Domini continerent vt relictis Domini sacerdotibus contra Euangelicam disciplinam noua traditio sacrilegae institutionis exurgat Note whether these wordes of Cyprian concerne not our times Nowe it is cleare whence T. C. his faction ariseth howe it tooke rooting howe it is hardened He and his crue haue withdrawne certaine who of good zeale professe the name of Christ from the loue and obedience of their Superior or Pastor or Bishop and haue dangerously drawne them into contempt of Ecclesiasticall discipline to breake from the faith and allegeance of the Lordes precepts that by forsaking of the Lorde his Priestes contrarie to the Euangelicall discipline they might begin a newe platforme of sacrilegious institution of their own discipline Obserue last of all that Ecclesiasticall discipline Euangelicall discipline which S. Cyprian soundeth farre otherwise then the newe Tetrarchie of Doctors Pastors Elders and Deacons discipline for it is taken for the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Yet here of by the way we gather that such as breake foorth from the Bishops gouernment and censures as our schismatikes doe with greatest contempt that may be doe offend against the commandements and the doctrine or discipline of the Gospell and therefore a superioritie of Bishops is a diuine institution by Cyprians iudgement who liued not very long after the Apostles times I might answere Allegare non est probare Allegation is no demonstration least of all of humane authoritie And all this may be granted and nothing gained to the cause Dominus Demonstrator doeth passe away in cloudes of generalitie and concludeth not the question So that in steede of 18. demonstrations there are 18. monsters some without head some without taile some without middle others without arme all without harme not able to affright the veriest foole that is with so much as a false feare of loosing the impregnable fort of the trueth of our cause * ⎠* CAPVT SECVNDVM IN the second chapter followe certaine Maximes of their own or certaine Oracles of one T. C. tanquam ex tripode which if you will not take vpon T.C. his credite you may take it vpon the credite of 20. letters or take vnto you the whole Alphabet to make demonstrations thereby The 1. Proposition No calling is lawfull but which is directly warranted out of the worde to him that executeth it Demonstration The 2. Proposition The name and office of an Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God The 3. Proposition No man may be ordeined to an office vntill a place be voide as he is fit for Euery one of these propositions hath a speciall aime to the vsuall intended markes of a cauilling Sophister Remonstrance The 1. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or meere trifling Aristot de reprehens Soph. as Aristotle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Like as a Cuckow to sing alwaies one song as in the former Chapter the Demonstrator trifleth vp and downe The 2. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a false or starke staring lie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make a demonstration of a lie The 3. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a meere Paradoxe which neuer any but of this newe fantasie said before The saying is A three twisted corde will not easily breake asunder but this thrise twisted cable knappeth asunder If the Demonstrator will onely propound we may lawfully returne these propositions home againe 1. No calling is lawfull but directly warranted to him that executeth it All lay Presbyteri or vnpreaching eldership with the authoritie they attribute vnto it is vnwarranted directly by Gods worde to them that doe execute it Ergo No such calling is lawfull 2. No name of Superioritie for order and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church is contrary to the worde The name and office of Archbyshop Archdeacon Deanes are such names and offices of Superioritie Ergo No names and offices of Archbyshop Archdeacon c. are contrary to the worde 3. Paul Barnabas Epaphroditus Andronicus Iunius and others were not forth with limited to a certaine place But Paul Barnabas Philip c. were ordeined Ministers Ergo Certaine were ordeined Ministers not limitted to a place The 1. Demonstration which is a reason of this 1. redoubted Proposition If Iohn were constrained to prooue his ministerie out of the worde when the Priestes accused him Demonstration Then there is no lawfull calling but warranted in the worde but he prooued his calling Ergo no calling lawfull but which is warranted in the worde To the Antecedent This fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the consequent Remonstrance The sequele of the Antecedent is to be denyed which is in plainer termes this vz. There is no calling in the newe but is first warranted by some prophecie of the olde Testament To the Assumption But he prooued his ministerie Whether he prooued or did not prooue whether he were accused or not accused the ministerie of Iohn was a lawful ministerie their impeachment there of was not to hinder the execution of his ministerie The warrant rather is the immediate commission from heauen and the prophecie that went of him to exercise his ministerie Howe followeth the Argument à facto adius Or from their constraint to the warrantize of his calling If any proofe should be drawen for or against it can bee other in consequence then this One extraordinarie Minister did vpon occasion of those that cauilled at him prooue his extraordinarie calling out of the worde of God Then euery ordinarie Minister may against wranglers prooue his ordinarie ministerie out of the worde to be the ordinance of God Euen so doe we Or this Iohannes confessus est non negauit Iohn 1.20 Iohn did confesse and denyed not confessed who he was and denied not who hee was Euen so in humilitie we ought to doe and semblably doe Vnlesse it please you to argue after this sort out of the text These things were done in Bethany or Bethabara beyond Iordan or Iohn proued his ministerie in Bethany or Bethabara beyonde Iordan Ergo your ministerie must be proued in Bethany beyond Iordan O then your reason hath a further fetch beyond or on the other side of Iericho or Iordan Or else better after this sort Iohn exercised his ministerie and proued it too without warrantie of an outwarde calling of any that sate in Moses chaire for the people helde him for a Prophet Ergo you haue an exercise of your ministerie without an outwarde calling and may runne before you are sent and the people holde your prophecie and baptisme to be true But this will sauour strongly of Anabaptisme I trowe The 2. Demonstration The callings vnder the Gospel must haue as good warrant as the callings vnder the Law Demonstration But all callings vnder the Lawe except miraculous had direct warrant Ergo. Ridetur chorda qui semper oberrat eadem Remonstrance A
causes of doctrine or manners so farre as appertaineth to conscience to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall without her knowledge or consent to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best without any guiding of lawes to haue your sentences once giueÌ„ to stand in force though they be appealed from vntil they be in the last instaÌ„ce reuersed to excommunicate your Soueraigne consequently to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince but vnto a nationall Synode All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction are at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall if not tyrannicall ergo that which is by you claimed and exercised is in deede by Christ there condemned Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde which is giuen to bishops without any authoritie in that respect that will helpe you against vs here for the Scripture giueth not lawes to wordes but to the matters themselues Yours is Lordlines in deed when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church viz. your Presbyterie an epitome or representation of euery seuerall Congregation or Church The 3. Demonstration They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers Demonstration who are aboue the people but the first is true ergo the second To the Maior The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes Remonstrance For I doe assure you this no Bishop is Lord ouer the people but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie It is more to be aboue the people in deede then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech or obsequious worde Nowe forsooth the Ministers are aboue the people that is their betters and in authoritie ouer them as this Maior doth import To the Minor Lordlines is one thing in malam partem Lordship is another S. Peter say you forbiddeth it 1. Pet. 5.3 on whome you say we father Lordlines to be Lordes of Gods heritage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay Peter writeth to the bishops or gouerning pastorall Elders such as himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellowe elder not to tyrannize ouer the flocke but to be example to the faithfull The place of Peter and your collection maketh against your selues Retortion To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers that is Ministers may rule and not be ruled The drift of the place is Ministers may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people or ouer one another I referre me to the answere made to the second demonstration of this matter The 4. Allegation or Demonstration It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard Demonstra Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance where the accusers and witnesses are ergo euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke The Illatiue is ergo euery bishop hath his limited proper iurisdiction Cyprian complained thus Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa Certaine desperat companions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike then else where He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince not for going out of the Parish with the cause as you insinuate The 5. Allegation Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers Demonstrat Luth. aduer Papat à Satana fundat Remonstrance some are of better giftes which giftes cause no Lordship Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome Papam non esse caput christianitatis Dominum mundi And that all bishops whether of Eugub or Rome Rheg or Constantinople Alexand Tauis are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike The 6. Allegation The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other Demonstrat Muscu â—e com de verbi minist were subiect to no Head nor President That is no vniuersall Head otherwise Musculus vpon the 20. Remonstrance of Matth. alloweth Gouernors Presidents Rulers in the church The 7. Allegation A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers Demonstra Idem super 2. Thess 8.2 was the first steppe to Papacie That is translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie Remonstrance or an illimitable authoritie in the Church which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie The 8. Allegation Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion Demonstraet Confess Holuet That is absolute worldly auaritious ambiti ous dominion Remonstrance not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer Remonstrance The 9. Allegation Equall power is giuen to all Ministers sauing for order Demonstrat Confe Hel. c. 18. Order includeth superioritie and excludeth not dignitie Remonstr Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ 20. Demonstration Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition and not dominion as Musculus doth expound Answere of the Demonstrator Caluine and others expounde it against superioritie but admitte that dominion is ambition because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Ministers There is no witte in this misshapen answere Remonstrance with reply the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you dominion in the better part taken for rule is most contrarying to ambition It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition as to conspire against his superior and to aspire to an higher place or seate your factious study may be called ambition The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression Demonstration which is forbidden Answere of the Demonstrator That is not so Luke 22.25 v. vseth the single verbe to rule the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse but to rule It is certaine Remonstrance with reply one place must expounde the other the tenor of the text expoundeth all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant termes which is absolutely tyrannously or ambitiously to gouerne and rule or violently to rule and ouerrule or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes and ouercame them and preuailed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them or 1. Pet. 5.3 v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage If the worde signifie not so S. Peter should forewarne them of that which yourselues say is no fault therefore it is as cleare as noone day the children of Zebedee and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious and ambitious desire of ruling and that ciuilly and absolutely The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator
and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of