Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	authority_n	church_n	great_a	2,167	5	3.1621	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A51177	The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.	Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Manchester, Henry Montagu, Earl of, 1563?-1642.	1641 (1641)	Wing M2472; ESTC R6266	23,462	40

others other out of which by comparing their doctrine with the Scripture men may draw a perfect body of Truths and though they delivered few other Truths yet in delivering Scripture wherein all necessary Truths is containd they deliver all and by that rule whosoever regulates his life and doctrine I am confident that though he may mistake errour for Truth in the way hee shall never mistake Hell for Heaven in the end Seventhly His next reason is their common Achilles the fourth of the Ephesians which he chuseth onely to employ like his Triarios his mayn battell leaving his Velites his light armed Souldiers some places too allegorical even in his own opinion to stand examinatiō The words are these He hath given some Prophets some Apostles some Evangelists some Pastors and some Doctors for the instauration of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edification of the body of Christ till wee all meet in the unity of Faith and the knowledge of the Sonne of God unto a perfect man and unto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ That we may be no more children tost and carried away with every winde of doctrine c. Verse 11 12 13. Now out of this place I see not how a succession may be evinced rather I thinke it may that the Apostle meant none For first he saith not hee will give but he hath given and who could suppose that the Apostle could say that Christ had given then the present Pope and the Doctors who now adhere to him Secondly allow that by he hath given were meant he hath promis'd which would be a glosse not much unlike to that which one of the most witty and most eloquent of our modern Divines Doctor Dun notes of Statuimus i. Abrogamus yet since these severall Nowns are all governed by the same Verb and no distinction put it would prove as wel a necessity of a continual succession of Apostles Prophets and Evangelists as of Pastors and Doctors which is more then either they can shew or pretend they can so that it seemeth to me to follow that these were then given to do this till then and not a succession of them promised till then to doe this and so wee receiving and retaining the Scriptures wherein what they taught is contain'd as wee would any thing else that had as generall and ancient a tradition if there were any such need no more for if hee say that men are tost for all the Scriptures I answer so are they for all these Doctors nay if these keep any from being tost it is the Scripture which does it upon which their authority is by them founded upon their own interpretation and reason who yet will not give us leave to build any thing upon ours out of plainer places and though they tell us that wee cannot know the Scripture but from the Church they are yet fain as appeares to prove the Authoritie of the Church out of Scripture which makes mee aske them in the wordes of their owne Campian and with much more cause Nihilne pudet Labyrinthi Eigthly there follows an other reason to this sense that Reason not being able to shew away to eternall happinesse and without such an one man would fail of the end to which he was ordained it must be propos'd by an infallible authority in so plain a manner as even the simple might be capable of it which being performed by our Saviour it must be convai'd to succeeding ages by those who heard it from him and whensoever this thread failed mankind was left without a guide to inevitable ruine I answere that though all this be granted it proves not against us for we have the Scripture come downe to us relating Christs Doctrine and written by those that heard it and which the simple are capable of understanding I mean as much as is plaine and more is not necessary since other Questions may as well be suffered without harme as those betweene the Jesuites and Dominicans about Predetermination and betweene the Dominicans and almost all the rest about the Immacultate conception and those who are not neither are they capable out of Scripture to discerne the true Church Much lesse by any of these notes which require much understanding and large learning as conformity with the Ancients and such like Ninthly the same answere I give to this serves also to the following words of Saint Austin for whereas Master Mountague concludeth that he could not meane the Scriptures as a competent rule to mankind which consisteth most of simple persons because there hath been continuall altercations about the sense of important places I answere that I may as well conclude by the same Logick that neither is the Church a competent guide because in all ages there have also beene disputes not onely about her authority but even which was shee and to whatsoever reason he imputes this to the same may we the other as to negligence pride prejudication and the like and if he please to search I verily beleeve he will find that the Scriptures are both easier to bee knowne then the Church and that it is as easie to know what these teach as when that hath defin'd since they hold no Decrees binding de fide without a confirmation of the popes who can never bee knowne infallibly to be a Pope because a secret simony makes him none no not to be a Christian because want of due intention in the Baptizer makes him none whereof the latter is always possible and the first in some ages likely and in hard Questions a readinesse to yeeld to the Scriptures when they shall be explan'd me thinks should serve as well as a readinesse to assent to the decrees of the Church when those shall bee pronounced Tenthly Hee saith the Scripture must be kept safe in some hands whose authority must beget our acceptance of them which being no other then the Church of all ages we have no more reason to beleeve that it hath preserved that free from corruption then its selfe in a continuall visibility I answer that neither to giving authority to Scripture nor to the keeping of them is required a continuall visibility of a no ways erring body of Christians the writers of them give them their authority amongst Christians nor can the Church move any other and that they were the writers of them we receive from the generall Tradition and testimony of the first Christians not from any following Church who could know nothing of it but from them for for those parts which were then doubted of by such as were not condemned for it by the rest why may not wee remayn in the same suspence of them that they did for their being kept and convey'd this was not done onely by their Church but by the Greeks and there is no reason to say that to the keeping and transmitting of Records safely it is required to understand them perfectly since the old Testament was kept

transmitted by the Iews who yet were so capable of erring that out of it they lookt for a temporall King when it spake of a spiritual me thinks the testimonie is greater of a church that contradicts the Scripture then which doth not since no mans witnessing is so soon to be taken as when against himselfe and so their testimony is greater of a Church that contradicts the Scripture by which themselves are condemn'd Besides the generall reverence which ever hath bin given to the Books the continuall use of them together with severall parties having alwayes their eyes upon each other ready and desirous to have somewhat to accuse in their Adversaries gives us greater certainty that these are the same writings then we have that any other ancient Book is any other ancient Authors and we need not to have any other unerring company preserv'd to make us surer of it yet the Church of Rome as infallible a Depositarie as she is hath suffer'd some varieties to creepe into the Copies in some lesse materiall things nay and some whole Books as they themselves say to be lost and if they say how then can that be the rule whereof part is lost I answer that wee are excus'd if we walk by all the rule that we have and this makes much against Traditions being the rule since the Church hath not lookt better to Gods unwritten word then to his written and if she pretend she hath let her tell us the cause why Antichrists comming was deferr'd which was a Tradition of St. Paul to the Thessalonians and which without impudence she cannot pretend not to have lost and if againe they say God hath preserv'd all necessary Traditions I reply so hath hee all necessary Scripture for by not being preserv'd it became to us not necessary since wee cannot be bound to beleeve and follow what we cannot finde But besides I beleeve that all which was ever necessary is contain'd in what remaines for Pappias sayes of S. Mark that he writ all that S. Peter preach'd as Iraeneus doth that Luke writ all that S. Paul preach'd nay Vincentius Lirinensis though hee would have the Scripture expounded by ancient Tradition yet confesseth that all is there that is necessary and yet then there was no more Scripture then we now have as indeed by such a Tradition as he speaks of no more can be prov'd then is plainly there and almost all Christians confent in and truly I wonder that they should bragge so much of that Author since both in this and other things he makes much against them especially in not sending men to the present Roman Church a much readier way if he had knowne it then such a long and doubtfull one as hee prescribes which indeed it is impossible that almost any question should be ended by Eleventhly He brings S. Austines authority to prove that the true Church must be alwayes visible but if he understood Church in Master Mountagu's sence I think he was deceiv'd Neither is this impudence for me to say since I have cause to think it but his particular opinion by his saying which Card. Perr quotes that before the Donatists the question of the Church had never beene exactly disputed of and by this being one of his maine grounds against them and yet claiming no Tradition but onely places of Scripture most of them allegoricall and if it were no more then I may better dissent from it then he from all the first Fathers for Dionisius Areopagita was not as yet hatcht in the point of the Chiliasts though some of them Pappias and Iraeneus claim'd a direct Tradition and Christs owne words Secondly as hee useth this kind of liberty so he professeth it in his 19 Epistle where he saith that to Canonicall Scriptures he had onely learnt to give that reverence as not to doubt of what they said because they said it and from all others hee expected proofe from Scriptures or reason Thirdly the Church of Rome condemnes severall opinions of him and therefore she ought not to finde fault with them who imitate her examples Twelfthly He adds two reasons more the consent of the Fathers of all ages and the confession of Protestants To the first I answer that I know not of any such and am the more unapt to beleeve it because M. Mountague vouchsafes not to insist upon it nor to quote any which I guesse he would have done but that hee misdoubted their strength Secondly suppose that all the Fathers which speak of this did say so yet if they say it as private Doctors and claime no Tradition for it I know not why they should weigh more then so many of the now-learned who having more help from Art and no fewer from Nature are not worse searchers into what is truth though lesse capable of being witnesses to what was tradition Thirdly they themselves often professe they expect not to be read as Judges but as to be judg'd by their and our rule the Canonicall Scriptures Fourthly Let him please to read about the imaculate conception Posa Salmeron Wadding and he will finde me as submissive to antiquity even whilest I reject it as those of his owne Party for they to preferre new opinions before old are faine to preferre new Doctors before old and to confesse the latter more perspicacious and to differ from those of former times with as little scruple as hee would from Calvin whom Maldonat on purpose to oppose confesseth he chuseth a new Interpretation before that of all the Ancients which no witnesse but my eyes could have made mee beleeve nay and produce other points wherein their Church hath decreed against the Fathers to perswade her to doe so againe although Campian with an eloquent brag would perswade us that they are all as much for him as Greg. the 13 who was then Pope To the second I answer that infallibility is not by us deni'd to the Church of Rome with an intention of allowing it to particular Protestants how wise and learned soever Thirteenthly Hee says next that hee after inform'd himself in other points which seem'd to him unwarrantable and superstitious and found onely his own mistakes gave him occasion of scandall to this I answer that I cannot well answer any thing unlesse he had specified the points but I can say that there are many as picturing God the Father which is generally thought lawfull and as generally practised their offerings to the Virgin Mary which onely differs frō the heresy of the Colliridians in that a candle is not a cake their praying to Saints and beleeving de fide that they heare us though no-way made certaine that they doe so and many more which without any mistake of his might have given him occasion to be still scandalized for whereas he saith that these points were grounded upon the authority of the ancient Fathers which was refused as insufficient by Protestants I answere that none of these I name have any ground

to say he understands them not and good Saint Austin finding that from controversies in Religion there came no other fruit but indeterminata luctatio said with sorrow Why do we strive about our Fathers Will Nos fuimus fratres and our Father is not dead intestate but hath left his Will and Testament in writing let it be followed and all controversies will soon be ended Flatter not your self Walter the Remonstrance you make shews that the resignation you made of your selfe to the church of Rome was precipitate then the resolution to live and die there desperate yet you give some hopes when you say nor do you now so desperatly professe as if it were your fortunes legacie for you do not believe it so dangerous but it may recover The Kings benignitie and goodnesse is always to interpret the best but know that his Majestie hath a better opinion of those who are bred such then of those who become such by relapse nor am I willing to apprehend any change of your dutie yet take this for a caveat that commonly all changes follow change of faith I never travelled of you till now and it is with a great deal of paine I thought you should have wept over me when Nature had called for her due but you have prevented me And yet my sonne you may yet returne to me but I shall never goe to you in this way nor had I ever gone so far into this question but to fetch you again my sonne otherwise a lost child Thus as your Letter began so do I end after much debate concerning a fit expression of my selfe whether was better by not writing to shew my dislike or by long writing to labour your recovery this last was most satisfactory to my conscience though the other more agreeable to nature displeased I have therefore resolved as you see to give you this answer and I pray God that he may blesse you and mee so in it that my pen may have the fruit my heart wishes Your Loving Father Manchester My Lord Faulklands Answer A Letter of Master Mountagu justifying his change of Religion being dispers'd in many copies I was desired to give my opinion of the Reasons and my reason if I misliked them having read and consider'd it I was brought to be perswaded First because having beene sometimes in some degrees mov'd with the same inducements I thought that what satisfied me might possibly have the same effect upon him Secondly because I being a Layman a youngman and an ignorant man I thought a little reason might in likelihood work more from my pen then more from theirs whose profession age and studies might make him suspect that it is they are too hard for him and not their cause for his Thirdly because I was very desirous to doe him service not onely as a man and a Christian but as one whom all that know him inwardly esteeme of great parts and I am desirous somewhat to make up my great want of them by my respects to those that have them and as an impartiall seeker of Truth which I trust he is and I professe my selfe to be and so much for the cause of this paper I come now to that which it opposeth First then whereas he defends his search I suppose hee is rather for that to receive prayse then to make apologies all men having cause to suspect that gold which were given with this condition that the Receiver should not try it by any touchstone Secondly Hee saith that there being two sorts of questions the one of right or doctrine the other of fact or story as whether the Protestants faith had a visible appearance before Luther hee resolved to begin his enquiry with the matter of fact as being sooner to be found because but one easier to be cōprehended to this I answer by saying that if they would not appeal from the right Tribunall or rather rule which is the Scripture those many might easier be ended then this one we building our faith onely upon plain places and all reasonable men being sufficient judges of what is plain but if they appeal to a consent of Fathers or Councels whereof many are lost many not lost not to bee gotten many uncertain whether Fathers or no Fathers and those which we have being too many for almost any industry to read over and absolutely for any memory to remember which yet is necessary because any one clause of any one Father destroys a consent and being besides liable to all the exceptions which can bee brought against the Scriptures being the rule as difficulty want of an infallible interpreter and such like and being denied to have any infallibilitie especially when they speak as witnesses which a consent of them never doth against us by one party which the Scripture is allow'd to have by both then I wonder not if he think such a way so uncertain and so long that he was willing to chuse any shorter cut rather then travell it Neither doe I believe this to be so short or so concluding as he imagines for if he consider the large extent of Christian Religion so that wee know little from any indifferent Relator of the opinions of the Abissines so great a part of Christendome if he consider the great industry of his church in extinguishing those whom they have call'd Heretikes and also their Books so that wee know scarce any thing of any of them but from themselves who are too partiall to make good Historians if hee consider how carefully they stop mens mouthes even those of their own with their Indices Expurgatorii it will then appeare to him both a long work to seek and a hard one to finde whether any thought like Luther in all ages and that hee concludes very rashly who resolves there was none because he cannot finde any since they might have bin visible in their time yet not so to us for men are not the less visible when they are so for not being after remembred as a man may be a Gentleman though he know not his pedidigree so that as I will not affirm that there were always such because I cannot prove it so neither ought they to make themselves sure there were none without they could prove that which is impossible and therefore no argument can be drawn from thence and if it could be proved that such a no-wayes erring church must at all times be I had rather believe that there were still such though wee know them not which may be true then that theirs is it which in my opinion cannot Thirdly He says hee could finde no one point of controverted doctrine whereupon all the rest depended but that this one question of fact was such as the decision of it determined all the rest To this I answer that the question of the infallibilitie of the Pope at least of those who adhere to him which they call the church is such a one as if determin'd must determine