the other Prophecies in the Old Testament from which we find the Apostles arguing to prove this foundation of their Faith which every one may see do not contain in so many words that which was proved by them But these being so obvious we choose only to name this all the rest being of a like nature with it The next Controversy debated in that time was the obligation of the Mosaical Law The Apostles by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost made a formal Decision in this matter yet there being great opposition made to that St. Paul sets himself to prove it at full length in his Epistle to the Galatians where besides other Arguments he brings these two from the Old Testament one was that Abraham was justified by Faith before the giving the Law for which he cites these words Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness From which by a very just consequence he infers that as Abraham was blessed so all that believe are blessed with him and that the Law of Moses that was 430 years after could not disannul it or make the promise of none effect therefore we might now be justified by Faith without the Law as well as he was Another place he cites is The just shall live by Faith and he subsumes the Law was not of Faith from which the Conclusion naturally follows Therefore the just lives not by the Law He must be very blind that sees not a succession of many consequences in that Epistle of St. Paul's all which had been utterly impertinent if this new method had any ground for its pretension and they might at one dash have overthrown all that he had said But men had not then arrived at such devices as must at once overturn all the sense and reason of mankind We hope what we premised will be remembred to shew that the Apostles being infallibly directed by the Holy Ghost will not at all prove that though this way of Arguing might have passed with them yet it must not be allowed us For their being infallibly directed proves their Arguments and way of proceeding was rational and convincing otherwise they had not pitched on it And the persons to whom these Arguments were offered not acquiescing in their Authority their Reasonings must have been good otherwise they had exposed themselves and their cause to the just scorn of their enemies Having therefore evinced that both our Saviour and his Apostles did prove by consequences drawn from Scripture the greatest and most important Articles of Faith we judg that we may with very great assurance follow their example But this whole matter will receive a further confirmation If we find it was the method of the Church of God in all ages to found her decisions of the most important Controversies on consequences from Scriptures There were very few Hereticks that had face and brow enough to set up against express words of Scripture for such as did so rejected these Books that were so directly opposite to their errors as the Manicheâ—s did the Gospel of St. Matthew But if we examine the method either of Councils in condemning Hereticks or of the Fathers writing against them we shall always find them proceeding upon deductions and consequences from Scripture as a sufficient ground to go upon Let the Epistle both of the Council of Antioch to Samosatenus and Denis of Alexandria's Letter to him be considered and it shall be found how they drew their Definitions out of deductions from Scripture So also Alexander Patriarch of Alexandria in his Epistle in which he condemned AErius proceeds upon deductions from Scripture and when the Council of Nice came to judg of the whole matter if we give credit to Geâ—â—sius they canvassed many places of Scripture that they might come to a decision and that whole dispute as he represents it was all about Interences and Deductions from Scripture It is true F. Maimbourg in his Romantick History of Arrianism would perswade us that in that Counsel the Orthodox and chiefly the great Saints of the Council were for adhering closely to what they had received by Tradition without attempting to give new Expositions of Scripture to interpret it any other way than as they had learned from these Fathers that had been taught them by the Apostles But the Arrians who could not find among these that which they intended to establish maintained on the contrary that we must not confine our selves to that which hath been held by Antiquiâ—y since none could be sure about that Therefore they thought that one must search the truth of the Doctrine only in the Scriptures which they could turn to their own meaning by their false subtitles And to make this formal account pass easily with his Reader he vouches on the margin Sozom. cap. 16. When I first read this it amazed me to find a thing of so great consequence not so much as observed by the Writers of Controversies but turning to Sozomen I found in him these words speaking of the Dispute about Arrius his opinions the Disputation being as is usual carried out into different Enquiries some were of opinion that nothing should be innovated beyond the Faith that was originally delivered and these were chiefly those whom the simplicity of their manners had brought to Divine Faith without nice curiosity Others did strongly or earnestly contend that it was not fit to follow the ancienter opinions without a strict trial of them Now in these words we find not a word either of Orthodox or Arrian so of which side either one or other were we are left to conjecture That Jesuite has been sufficiently exposed by the Writers of the Port-Royal for his foul dealing on other occasions and we shall have great cause to mistruth him in all his accounts if it be found that he was quite mistaken in this and that the party which he calls the Orthodox were really some holy good men but simple ignorant and â—asily abused And that the other party which he calls the Arrian was the Orthodox and more judicious who readily forseeing the inconvenience which the simplicity of others would have involved them in did vehemently oppose it and pressed the Testimonies of the Fathers might not be blindly followed For proof of this we need but consider that they anathematized these who say that the Son was the work of the Father as Athanasius tells us which were the very words of Denis of Alexandria of whom the Arrians boasted much and cited these words from him and both Athanasius and Hilary acknowledg that those Bishops that condemned Sâ—â—nosâ—tenus did also reject the Consubstantial and St. Bâ—sil says Denis sometimes denied sometimes acknowledged the Consubstantial Yet I shall not be so easy as Petavius and others of the Roman Church are in this matter who acknowledg that most of the Fathers before the Council of Nice said many things that did not agree with the Rule of the Orthodox â—aith but
good reason to reform from that errour So the Church of Rome will ackowledge that the Greek Church or our Church ought to forsake their present Doctrines though they have been long received Fourthly No later Definitions of Councils or Fathers ought to derogate from the ancienter Decrees of Councils or opinions of the Fathers otherwise the Arrians had reason to have justified their submitting to the Councils of Sirmium Arimini and Millan and rejecting that of Nice therefore we ought in the first place to consider the Decrees and opinions of the most Primitive antiquity Fifthly No succession of Bishops how clear so ever in its descent from the Apostles can secure a Church from errour Which the Church of Rome must acknowledge since they can neither deny the succession of the Greek Church nor of the Church of England Sixthly If any Church continues so hardned in their errours that they break Communion with another Church for reforming the guilt of this breach must lie at their door who are both in the Errour and first reject the other and refuse to reform or communicate with other Churches Upon every one of these particulars and they all set together compleat the plea for the Church of England I am willing to joyn Issue and shew they are not only true in themselves but must be also acknowledged by the Principles of the Church of Rome So that if the grounds of controversy on which our Reformation did proceed were good and justifiable it is most unreasonable to say our Church had not good right and authority to make it It can be made appear that for above two hundred years before the Reformation there were general complaints among all sorts of pesons both tho subtle Schoolmen and devout Contemplatives both Ecclesiasticks and Laicks did complain of the corruptions of the Church and called aloud for a Reformation both of Faith and Manners even the Council of Pisa a little before Luthers days did Decree There should be a Reformation both of Faith and Manners and that both of the Head and Members But all these complaints turned to nothing abuses grew daily the interests of the Nephews and other corrupt intrigues of the Court of Rome always obstructing good motions and cherishing ill Customs for they brought the more Grist to their Mill. When a Reformation was first called for in Germany instead of complying with so just a desire all that the Court of Rome thought on was how to suppress these complaints and destroy those who made them In end when great Commotions were like to follow by the vast multitudes of those who concurred in this desire of Reforming a Council was called after the Popes had frequently prejudged in the matter and Pope Leo had with great frankness condemned most of Luthers opinions From that Council no good could reasonably be expected for the Popes had already engaged so deep in the quarrel that there was no retreating and they ordered the matter so that nothing could be done but what they had a mind to all the Bishops were at their Consecration their sworn vassals nothing could be brought into the Council without the Legates had proposed it And when any good motions were made by the Bishops of Spain or Germany they had so many poor Italian Bishops kept there on the Popes charges that they were always masters of the vote for before they would hold a Session about any thing they had so canvassed it in the Congregations that nothing was so much as put to the hazard All these things appear even from Cardinal Pallavicini's History of that Council While this Council was sitting and some years before many of this Church were convinced of these corruptions and that they could not with a good Conscience joyn any longer in a worship so corrupted yet they were satisfied to know the truth themselves and to instruct others privately in it but formed no separated Church waiting for what issue God in his Providence might bring about But with what violence and cruelty their enemies who were generally those of the Clergy pursued them is well enough known Nor shall I repeat any thing of it lest it might be thought an invidious aggravating of things that are past But at length by the death of King Henry the eighth the Government fell in the hands of persons well affected to the Reformation It is not material what their true motives were for Jehu did a good work when he destroyed the Idolatry of Baal though neither his motives nor method of doing it are justifiable nor is it to the purpose to examine how those Bishops that reformed could have complied before with the corruptions of the Roman Church and received orders from them Meletius and Felix were placed by the Arrians the one at Antioch in the room of Eustathius the other at Rome in Liberius his room who were both banished for the Faith and yet both these were afterwards great Defenders of the truth and Felix was a martyr for it against these very Hereticks with whom they complied in the beginning So whatever mixture of carnal ends might be in any of the Secular men or what allay of humane infirmity and fear might have been in any of the Ecclesiasticks that can be no prejudice to the cause for men are always men and the power of God does often appear most eminently when there is least cause to admire the instruments he makes use of But in that juncture of affairs the Bishops and Clergy of this Church seeing great and manifest corruptions in it and it being apparent that the Church of Rome would consent to no reformation to any good purpose were obliged to reform and having the Authority of King and Parliament concurring they had betrayed their consciences and the charge of Souls for which they stood engaged and were to answer at the great day if they had dallied longer and not warned the people of their danger and made use of the inclinations of the Civil Powers for carrying on so good a work And it is the lasting glory of the reformation that when they saw the Heir of the Crown was inflexibly united to the Church of Rome they proceeded not to extream courses against her for what a few wrought on by the ambition of the Duke of Northumberland were got to do was neither the deed of the Nation nor of the Church since the Representatives of neither concurred in it But the Nation did receive the righteous Heir and then was our Church crowned with the highest glory it could have desired many of the Bishops who had been most active in the Reformation sealing it with their blood and in death giving such evident proofs of holy and Christian constancy that they may be justly matched with the most Glorious Martyrs of the Primitive Church Then did both these Churches appear in their true colours That of Rome weltring in the blood of the Saints and insatiately drinking it up and our Church bearing the Cross of
out such Inferences as flow from that connexion Now though we are liable to great abuses both in our judgments and inferences yet if we apply these faculties with due care we must certainly acquiesce in the result of such reasonings Otherwise this being God's Image in us and the Standard by which we are to try things God has given us a false Standard which when we have with all possible care managed yet we are still exposed to fallacies and errors This must needs reflect on the Veracity of that God that has made us of such a nature that we can never be reasonably assured of any thing Therefore it must be acknowledged that when our Reasons are well prepared according to those eternal rules of Purity and Vertue by which we are fitted to consider of Divine matters and when we carefully weigh things we must have some certain means to be assured of what appears to us And though we be not infallible so that it is still possible for us by precipitation or undue preparation to be abused into mistakes yet we may be well assured that such Connexions and Inferences as appear to us certain are infallibly true If this be not acknowledged then all our obligation to believe any thing in Religion will vanish For that there is a God that he made all things and is to be acknowledged and obeyed by his creatures that our souls shall outlive their union with our bodies and be capable of rewards and punishments in another state that Inspiration is a thing possible that such or such actions were above the power of nature and were really performed In a word all the Maxims on which the belief either of Natural Religion or Revealed is founded are such as we can have no certainty about them and by consequence are not obliged to yield to them if our faculty of Reasoning in its clear deductions is not a sufficient warrant for a sure belief But to examin a little more home their beloved Principle that their Church cannot err must they not prove this from the Divine Goodness and Veracity from some passages of Scripture from miracles and other extraordinary things they pretend do accompany their Church Now in yielding assent to this Doctrine upon these proofs the mind must be led by many arguments through a great many Deductions and Inferences Therefore we are either certain of these deductions Or we are not If we are certain this must either be founded on the Authority of the Church expounding them or on the strength of the argu ms = ments Now we being to examin this Authority not having yet submitted to it this cannot determine our belief till we see good cause for it But in the discerning this good cause of believing the Church Infallible they must say that an uncontrollable evidence of reason is ground enough to fix our Faith on or there can be no certain ground to believe the Church Infallible So that it is apparent we must either receive with a firm perswasion what our souls present to us as uncontrollably true or else we have no reason to believe there is a God or to be Christians or to be as they would have us Romanists And if it be acknowledged there is cause in some cases for us to be determined by the clear evidence of Reason in its Judgments and Inferences then we have this Truth gained that our Reasons are capable of making true and certain Inferences and that we have good cause to be determined in our belief by these and therefore Inferences from Scripture ought to direct our belief Nor can any thing be pretended against this but what must at the same time overthrow all Knowledg and Faith and turn us sceptical to every thing We desire it be in the next place considered what is the end and use of speech and writing which is to make known our thoughts to others those being artificial signs for conveying them to the understanding of others Now every man that speaks pertinently as he designs to be understood so he chooses such expressions and arguments as are most proper to make himself understood by those he speaks to and the clearer he speaks he speaks so much the better and every one that wraps up his meaning in obscure words he either does not distinctly apprehend that about which he discourses or does not design that those to whom he speaks should understand him meaning only to amuse them If likewise he say any thing from which some absurd Inference will easily be apprehended he gives all that hear him a sufficient ground of prejudice against what he says For he must expect that as his Hearers senses receive his words or characters so necessarily some figure or notion must be at the same time imprinted on their imagination or presented to their reason this being the end for which he speaks and the more genuinely that his words express his meaning the more certainly and clearly they to whom he directs them apprehend it It must also be acknowledged that all hearers must necessarily pass judgments on what they hear if they do think it of that importance as to examine it And this they must do by that natural faculty of making judgments and deductions the certainty whereof we have proved to be the foundation of all Faith and Knowledge Now the chief rule of making true judgments is to see what consequences certainly follow on what is laid before us If these be found absurd or impossible we must reject that from which they follow as such Further because no man says every thing that can be thought or said to any point but only such things as may be the seeds of further enquiry and knowledg in their minds to whom he speaks when any thing of great importance is spoken all men do naturally consider what inferences arise out of what is said by a necessary Connexion And if these deductions be made with due care they are of the same force and must be as true as that was from which they are drawn These being some of the Laws of Converse which every man of common sense must know to be true can any man think that when God was revealing by inspired men his Counsels to mankind in matters that concerned their eternal happiness he would do it in any other way than any honest man speaks to another that is plainly and distinctly There were particular reasons why prophetical visions must needs be obscure but when Christ appeared on earth though many things were not to be fully opened till he had triumphed over death and the powers of darkness Yet his design being to bring men to God what he spoke in order to that we must think he intended that they to whom he spake it might understand it otherwise why should he have spoken it to them and if he did intend they should understand him then he must have used such expressions as were most proper for conveying this to their understandings
IMPRIMATUR June 1. 1676. G. Jane R. P. D. Hen. Epis. Lond. a sac dom A RELATION OF A Conference Held About RELIGION At LONDON the Third of April 1676. By Edw. Stillingfleet D.D. and Gilbert Burnet with some Gentlemen of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed and are to be sold by Moses Pitt at the Angel against the little North-door of S. Paul's Church M DC LXXVI THE CONTENTS THE Preface The Relation of the Conference An addition by N. N. to what was then said An answer to that addition A Letter demonstrating that the Doctrine of the Church for the first eight Centuries was contrary to Transubstantiation A Discourse to show how unreasonable it is to ask for express words of Scripture in proving all Articles of Faith and that a lust and good consequence from Scripture is sufficient A Discourse to shew that it was not only possible to change the Belief of the Church concerning the manner of Christs presence in the Sacrament but that it is very reasonable to conclude both that it might be done and that it was truly done ERRATA PAge 18. l. 3. said to to be read at the end of l. 4. p. 8. l. 11. after Baptism read Ethiop p. 23. l. 20. for cites read explains p. 26. l. 3. for sayes r. has these words p. 32. l. 26. after the Body of Christ these words are left out is after some manner his Body and the Sacrament of his Blood p. 72. l. 28. for must r. to p. 75. l. 19. for use r. prove p. 86. l. 26. for these r. the. p. 93 l. 7. for yet r. you p. 103. for History r. Heresy p. 135. l. 14. for remained r. appeared in the world p. 140. l. 22. for which r. who The rest the reader will correct as he goes through THE PREFACE TThere is nothing that is by a more universal agreement decried than conferences about controversies of Religion and no wonder for they have been generally managed with so much heat and passion parties being more concerned for Glory and Victory than Truth and there is such foul dealing in the accounts given of them that it is not strange to see these prejudices taken up against them And yet it cannot be denied but if Men of Candor and Calmness should discourse about matters of Religion without any other interest than to seek and follow Truth there could not be a more effectual and easy way found for satisfying scruples More can be said in one hour than read in a day Besides that what is said in a discourse discretely managed does more appositely meet with the doubtings and difficulties any body is perplexed with than is possibly to be found in a book and since almost all Books disguise the opinions of those that differ from them and represent their arguments as weak and their opinions as odious Conferences between those of different perswasions do remedy all these evils But after all the advantages of this way it must be confessed that for the greater part Men are so engaged to their opinions by interest and other ties that in Conferences most persons are resolved before-hand to yield to no conviction but to defend every thing being only concerned to say so much as may darken weaker minds that are witnesses and give them some occasion to triumph at least conceal any foil they may have received by wrapping up some pittiful shift or other in such words and pronouncing them with such accents of assurance and perhaps scorn that they may seem to come off with victory And it is no less frequent to see Men after they have been so baffled that all discerning witnesses are ashamed of them yet being resolved to make up with impudence what is wanting in Truth as a Coward is generally known to boast most where he has least cause publish about what feats they have done and tell every body they see how the cause in their mouth did triumph over their enemies that so the praise of the defeat given may be divided between the cause and themselves and though in modesty they may pretend to ascribe all to Truth and the faith they contended for yet in their hearts they desire the greatest part be offered to themselves All these considerations with a great many more did appear to us when the Lady T. asked us if we would speak with her Husband and some others of the Church of Rome as well for clearing such scruples as the perpetual converse with those of that Religion had raised in the Lady as for satisfying her Husband of whose being willing to receive instruction she seemed confident Yet being well assured of the Ladies great candor and worth and being willing to stand up for the Vindication and Honour of our Church whatever might follow on it we promised to be ready to wait on her at her house upon advertisement without any nice treating before-hand what we should confer about Therefore we neither asked who should be there nor what number nor in what method or on what particulars our discourse should run but went thither carrying only one Friend along with us for a witness If the discourse had been left to our managing we resolved to have insisted chiefly on the corruptions in the worship of the Roman Church to have shewed on several Heads that there was good cause to reform these abuses and that the Bishops and Pastors of this Church the Civil Authority concurring had sufficient authority for reforming it These being the material things in controversy which must satisfy every person if well made out we intended to have discoursed about them but being put to answer we followed those we had to deal with But that we may not forestal the Reader in any thing that passed in the Ladies chamber which he will find in the following account we had no sooner left her house but we resumed among our selves all had passed that it might be written down what ever should follow to be published if need were So we agreed to meet again three days after to compare what could be written down with our memories And having met an account was read which did so exactly contain all that was spoken as far as we could remember that after a few additions we all Three Signed the Narrative then agreed to Few days had passed when we found we had need of all that care and caution for the matter had got wind and was in every bodies Mouth Many of our best Friends know how far we were from talking of it for till we were asked about it we scarce opened our Mouths of it to any Person But when it was said that we had been baffled and foiled it was necessary for us to give some account of it Not that we were much concerned in what might be thought of us but that the most excellent cause of our Church and Religion might not suffer by the misrepresentations of this conference And the truth was there was so little said
not innovate any thing in the Doctrine of the Church But it is plain these they brought only as a confirmation of their Arguments and not as the chief strength of their Cause for as they do not drive up the Tradition to the Apostles days setting only down some later testimonies so they make no inferences from them but barely set them down By which it is evident all the use they made of these was only to shew that the â—aith of the age that preceded them was conform to the proofs they brought from Scriptures but did not at all found the strength of their Arguments from Scripture upon the sense of the Fathers that went before them And if the Council of Nice had passed the Decree of adding the Consubstantials to the Creed upon evidence brought from Tradition chiefly can it be imagined that S. Athanasius who knew well on what grounds they went having born so great a share in their consultations and debates when he in a formal Treatise justifies that addition should draw his chief Arguments from Scripture and natural Reason and that only towards the end he should 〈◊〉 us of four Writers from whom he brings passages to prove this was no new or unheard-of thing In the end when the Council had passed their Decree does the method of their dispute alter Let any read Athanasius Hilâ—ry or St. Austin writing against the Arrians They continue still to ply them with Arguments made up of consequences from Scripture and their chief Argument was clearly a consequenco from Scripture that since Christ was by the confession of the Arrians truly God then he must be of the same substance otherwise there must be more substances and so more Gods which was against Scripture Now if this be not a consequence from Scripture let every body judg It was on this they chiefly insisted and waved the Authority of the Council of Nice which they mention very seldom or when they do speak of it it is to prove that its Decrees were according to Scripture â—or proof of this let us hear what St. Austin says writing against Maximinus an Arrianâ—ishop â—ishop proving the Consubstantiality of the Son This is that Consubstanâ—ial which was established by the Catholick Fathers in the Counâ—il of Nice against the Arrians by the authority of Truth and the truth of Authority which Heretical Impiety studied to overthrow under the Heretical Emperor Constantius because of the newness of tâ—e words which were not so well understood as should have been Since the ancient Faith had brought them forth but many were abused by the fraud of a few And a little after he adds But now neither should I bring the Council of Nice nor yet the Council of Arimini thereby to prejudg in this matter neither am I bound by the authority of the latter nor you by the authority of the former Let one Cause and Reason contest and strive with the other from the authorities of the Scriptures which are witnesses common to both and not proper to either of us If this be not our plea as formally as can be let every Reader judg from all which we conclude That our method of proving Articles of Faith by Consequences drawn from Scripture is the same that the Catholick Church in all the best ages made use of And therefore it is unreasonable to deny it to us But all that hath been said will appear yet with fuller and more demonstrative Evidence if we find that this very pretence of appealing to formal words of Scriptures was on several occasions taken up by divers Hereticks but was always rejected by the Fathers as absurd and unreasonable The first time we find this plea in any bodies mouth is upon the Question Whether it was lawful for Christians to go to the Theaters or other publick spectacles which the Fathers set themselves mightily against as that which would corrupt the minds of the people and lead them to heathenish Idolatry But others that loved those diverting fights pleaded for them upon this ground as Tertullian tells us in these words The Faith of some being either simpler or more scrupulous calls for an authority from Scripture for the discharge of these sights and they became uncertain about it because such abstinence is no-where denounced to the servants of God neither by a clear signification nor by name as Thou shalt not kill Nor worship an Idol But he proves it from the first Verse of the Psalms for though that seems to belong to the Jews yet says he the Scripture is always to be divided broad where that discipline is to be guarded according to the sense of whatever is present to us And this agrees with that Maxim he has elsewhere That the words of Scripture are to be understood not only by their sound but by their sense and are not only to be heard with our ears but with our minds In the next place the Arrians designed to shroud themselves under general expressions and had found glosses for all passages of Scripture So that when the Council of Nice made all these ineffectual by putting the word Consubstantial into the Creed then did they in all their Councils and in all disputes set up this plea That they would submit to every thing was in Scripture but not to any additions to Scripture A large account of this we have from Athanasins who gives us many of their Creeds In that proposed at Arimini these words were added to the Symbole For the word Substance because it was simply set down by the Fathers and is not understood by the people but breeds scandal since the Scriptures have it not therefore we have thought fit it be left out and that there be no more mention made of Substance concerning God since the Scriptures no-where speak of the Substance of the Father and the Son He also tells us that at Sirmium they added words to the same purpose to their Symbole rejecting the words of Substance or Consubstantial because nothing is written of them in the Scriptures and they transcend the knowledg and understanding of men Thus we see how exactly the Plea of the Arrians agrees with what is now offered to be imposed on us But let us next see what the Father says to this He first turns it back on the Arrians and shews how far they were from following that Rule which they imposed on others And if we have not as good reason to answer those so who now take up the same Plea let every one judg But then the Father answers it was no matter though one used forms of speech that were not in Scripture if he had still a sound or pious understanding as on the contrary a heretical person though he uses forms out of Scripture he will not be the less suspected if his understanding be corrupted and at full length applies that to the Question of the Consubstantiality To the same purpose St. Hilary setting down the arguments of
person the most trifling and pitiful Objection that can be offered by men of common sense and reason And therefore it is hoped that all persons who take any care of their souls will examine things more narrowly than to suffer such tricks to pass upon them or to be shaken by such Objections And if all the scruple these Gentlemen have why they do not joyn in Communion with the Church of Eâ—glâ—nd lies in this we expect they shall find it so entirely satisfied and removed out of the way that they shall think of returning back to that Church where they had their Baptism and Christian Education and which is still ready to receive them with open arms and to restore such as have been over-reached into Error and Heresy with the spirit of meekness To which I pray God of his great mercy dispose both them and all others who upon these or such like scruples have deserted the purest Church upon Earth and have turned over to a most impure and corrupt Society And let all men say Amen A Discourse to shew that it was not only possible to change the Belief of the Church concerning the manner of Christ's Presence in the Sacrament but that it is very reasonable to conclude both that it might be done and that it was truly changed THere is only one Particular of any importance that was mentioned in the Conference to which we forgot to make any Answer at all which was spoken by N.N. to this purpose How was it possible or to be imagined that the Church of God could ever have received such a Doctrine as the belief of Transubstantiation if every age had not received it and been instructed in it by their Fathers and the Age that went before it This by a pure forgetfulness was not answered and one of these Gentlemen took notice of it to me meeting with me since that time and desired me to consider what a friend of N. N. has lately printed on this Subject in a Letter concerning Transubstantiation Directed to a Person of Honour In which a great many pretended Impossibilities of any such Innovation of the Doctrine are reckoned up to shew it a thing both inconceivable and unpracticable to get the Faith of the Church changed in a thing of this nature This same Plea has been managed with all the advantages possible both of Wit Eloquence and Learning by Mr. Arnaud of the Sorbon but had been so exposed and baffled by Mr. Claud who as he equals the other in Learning Eloquence and Wit so having much the better of him in the Cause and Truth he vindicates has so foiled the other in this Plea that he seeing no other way to preserve that high reputation which his other Writings and the whole course of his Life had so justly acquired him has gone off from the main Argument on which they begun and betaken himself to a long and unprofitable Enquiry into the belief of the Greek Church since her schisme from the Latine Church The Contest has been oft renewed and all the ingenious and learned persons of both sides have looked on with great expectations Every one must confess M. Arnaud has said all can be said in such a Cause yet it seems he finds himself often pinched by the bitter I had almost said scurrilous reproaches he casts on Mr. Claud which is very unbecoming the Education and other noble Qualities of that great man whom for his Book of Frequent Communion I shall ever honour And it is a thing much to be lamented that he was taken off from these more useful Labours wherein he was engaged so much to the bettering this Age both in discovering the horrid corruption of the Jesuits and other Casuists not only in their Speculations about Casuistical Divinity but in their hearing Confessions and giving easie Absolutions upon trifling Penances and granting Absolutions before the Penance was performed and in representing to us the true Spirit of Holiness and Devotion was in the Primitive Church But on the other hand as Mr. Claud leaves nothing unsaid in a method fully answerable to the excellence of that truth he defends so he answers these reproaches in a way worthy of himself or rather of Christ and the Gospel If those excellent Writings were in English I should need to say nothing to a point that has been so canvassed but till some oblige this Nation by translating them I shall say so much on this Head as I hope shall be sufficient to convince every body of the emptiness weakness and folly of this Plea And first of all In a matter of fact concerning a change made in the Belief of the Church the only certain method of enquiry is to consider the Doctrine of the Church in former Ages and to compare that with what is now received and if we see a difference between these we are sure there has been a change though we are not able to shew by what steps it was made nay though we could not so much as make it appear probable that such a change could be made To instance this in a plain case of the change of the English Language since the dayes of William the Conqueror that there has no such swarm of Foreigners broke in upon this Island as might change our Language One may then argue thus Every one speaks the Language he heard his Parents his Nurses and others about him speak when he was a Child and this he continues to speak all his life and his Children speak as they heard him speak Upon which a man of wit and phancy might say a great many things to shew it impossible any such change should ever have been made as that we now should speak so as not to understand what was said five or six hundred years ago Yet if I find Chaucer or any much ancienter Book so written that I can hardly make a shift to understand it from thence without any further reasoning how this could be brought about I naturally must conclude our Language is altered And if any man should be so impertinent as to argue that could not be for Children speak as their Nurses and Parents taught them I could hardly answer him in patience but must tell him it is altered without more ado If a Child were amused with such pretended Impossibilities I would tell him that Strangers coming among us and our travelling to parts beyond the Seas made us acquainted with other Languages and Englishmen finding in other Tongues some words and phrases which they judged more proper than any they had being also fond of new words there was an insensible change made in every Age which after five or six Ages is more discernable Just so if I find most of all the Fathers either delivering their Opinions clearly in this matter against the Doctrine of the Roman Church or saying things utterly inconsistent with it I am sure there has been a change made though I could not shew either the whole progress of