standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the church-Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are church-Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching church-Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the church-Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in church-Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding church-Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates
same fauour if I would admit it VVhich I grounding my selfe vpon the most certayne foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for euer did gladly yeeld to and as became me accepted of it with all dutie VVherevpon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to conferre with me taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoeuer bookes I did neede thereto But after we had spent certayne weekes together in conference by word of mouth and I continued still in my former mind he desired to haue the summe thereof in writing that he might see the groundes on which I stood And to this intent we set downe together breefe notes of the points that we dealt in I shewing my reasons with the places of the autours whose iudgement and learning I rather trusted too then to my owne skill and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good Howbeit those notes being so short as pointing to thinges rather then vnfolding them that they could not well bee vnderstood by any but our selues onely vnlesse they were drawne more largely and at full my selfe being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death as altogether vncertaine when I might be called to yeeld vp mine account before God and man requested M. Rainoldes to take paines to penne them according to our notes thereof Promising him that I would peruse it when he had doon it and allow of it if it were to my mind or otherwise correct if I misliked ought in it This paines he vndertooke and sending me the partes thereof from time to time as he finished them I noted such thinges as I would haue added or altered therein and he performed it accordingly But when I perceiued that it was prepared to be set foorth in print I sought meanes to stay it all that I could for some considerations which seemed to me very great and important Marry since that againe vnderstaÌ„ding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward wherevnto he granted me also by speciall warrant the vse of such bookes as I should call for to helpe my selfe withall I set afresh vpon it by letters written vnto M. Rainoldes receiued from him I had mine owne speeches reasons perfitted as I would VVherefore I acknowledge that he hath set downe herein a true report of those things which past in conference betweene vs according to the grounds and places of the autours which I had quoted referred my self too As for that which he affirmeth in one place that I haue told him that my opinion is the Pope may not depose Princes in deede I told him so much And in truth I thinke that although the spiritual power be more excelleÌ„t worthie theÌ„ the temporall yet they are both of God neither doth the one depend of the other VVherevpon I gather as a certaine conclusion that the opinion of them who holde the Pope to be a temporall Lord ouer Kings Princes is vnreasonable and vnprobable altogether For he hath not to meddle with theÌ„ or theirs ciuilly much lesse to depose them or giue away their kingdomes that is no part of his commission He hath in my iudgment the Fatherhoode of the Church not a Princehood of the world Christ himself taking no such title vpon him nor giuing it to Peter or any other of his disciples And that is it which I meant to defend in him and no other soueraintie Humbly desiring pardon of her Maiestie my gratious soueraine Lady for my plaine dealing in that which so Christ helpe me I take to be Gods cause and the Churches only As I do also most willingly submit my selfe to the curteous correction of all men who through greater skill and perfitter iudgement see more then I doe in the depth of these matters whereof I haue conferred Farewell gentle Reader and now that I haue shewed thee my dealing herein let me obtaine this little request at thy handes that thou be not too hasty in giuing thy iudgemeÌ„t before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and vprightly From the Tower the seuenth of Iuly Iohn Rainoldes to the Students of the English Seminaries at Rome and Rhemes BRethren my harts desire prayer vnto God for Israel is that they may bee saued For that which S. Paule wrote to the Romans touching the Israelites his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh as being of one nation with him that must I protest to you brethren your selues my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort and countriemen of England Of whom I haue the greater compassion and pitie because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse and haue a deuotion to serue God aright though not the right way wherein he will be serued That I may iustly say the same vnto you which S. Paule of theÌ„ For I beare you record that you haue the zeale of God but not according to knowledge The zeale which the Israelites had was of the law The knowledge which they waÌ„ted was the true meaning of it For they expounded it after the traditions and doctrines of their Fathers and knowing not Christ to be the ende thereof they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God The zeale which you haue is of the Gospel The knowledge which you want is the true meaning of it too For you are instructed to vnderstand it after the maner of your Fathers Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand that the Pope is supreme head of the Church the trade of Popish Priesthoode the way to saue soules the sacrifice of Popish Masse the souerain sacrifice in a word that Papistrie is the Catholike faith and the faith and seruice of the Church of England is cursed and damnable specially the oth of the Queenes supremacie And your mindes are taken so with these opinions that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them as the Donatists did who loued their errours better then their liues Great zeale but not according to knowledge my brethren For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin your Fathers were abused by Phariseis Rabbines your Pope hath vsâ—rped ouer all Christian states your Priesthoode is impious your Masse abominatioÌ„ your Popish faith heresie our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie oth thereto our ministerie of the word of sacraments of prayers agreeth with the Gospell and therefore is holy Which thinges sith this Conference that one of your Seminarie-Priests and I haue had doth open proue peruse it â— beseech you with equitie and iudgement and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale that you may be saued Perhaps your Superiors the guides who seduce you will not giue you leaue to reade it and peruse it But there are two reasoÌ„s which should moue them to coÌ„descend thereto the one of the worke the other of the autours The worke is a conference
handling and ordering of things in their assemblies and meetings wherein they prouided by common counsell and consent for the guiding of the flock of Christ committed to them Which point of care and wisdome the Bishops folowing also knowing that where counsels want the people falleth but in the amplenes of counsellers there is health had their meetings likewise for conference together when things of greater waight required more aduise and they chose to be their President therein the Bishop of the chiefest citie in the prouince whom they called the Metropolitan For a prouince as they termed it was the same with them that a shire is with vs and the shire-towne as you would say of the prouince was called metropolis that is the mother-citie In which as the Iudges and Iustices with vs doo heare at certaine times the causes of the whole shire so the ruler of the prouince with them did minister iustice and made his abode there ordinarily Whereupon by reason that men for their busines made great concourse thither the church was woont to furnish it of godly policie with the worthyest Bishop endued with gifts aboue his brethren And they reposed in him such affiance that they did not onely commit the Presidentship of their assemblies to him but agréed also that none through al the prouince should be made Bishop without his coÌ„sent nor any waightyer matter be doone by them without him Now the Roman Empire was gouerned in such sort that as the Queenes Maiestie appointeth Lieutenants ouer sundry greater parts of her dominion a Lord Deputie of Ireland and the Lord Presidents of Wales and of the North so the Emperour diuided his to sundry officers the Earle of the East the Lord Presidents of Aegypt of Italie and so foorth whose circuites had many prouinces within them and were called dioceses Through occasion whereof the Bishops of those cities in which these Lieutenants of the Emperor were resiant the state ecclesiasticall folowing the ciuil did grow in power too Nether were they onely named Archbishops and Patriarkes of the diocese that is the chiefest Bishops and Fathers of that circuite which the Lieutenant ruled but also they obteyned that the Metropolitans of the prouinces in their diocese should be likewise subiect and obedient to them as Bishops were to Metropolitans So the Archbishop and Patriarke of Antioche had prerogatiues geuen him through the diocese of the East wherein were seuen prouinces So nothing could be doon in the diocese of Aegypt which vnder the Archbishop had ten Metropolitans without the consent of the Archbishop and Patriarke of Alexandria So it was granted to the Archbishop and Patriarke of Constantinople that the Metropolitanes of the dioceses of Pontus Asia and Thracia within the which there were eight and twenty prouinces should be ordeined by him Finally so was it decréed that if a Bishop had any matter of controuersie with the Metropolitan of his own prouince the Patriarke of the diocese should be iudge thereof as also if any man did receiue iniurie of his own Bishop or Metropolitan Thus were the Roman Popes as they are called now first Bishops ouer Elders within their own citie next Metropolitans ouer Bishops within their own prouince then Archbishops and Patriarkes ouer Metropolitans within their own diocese And this is the Princely diocese which I meant when I said that the Pope in the time of Pelagius was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese but he was yet but an Archbishop hee was not vniuersall Pope and Patriarke of the whole world For although the Patriarke of Constantinople being puffed vp because in his citie not the Emperours Lieutenants were resiant as in the rest but the Emperour himselfe aspired to be therefore Soueraine of the rest and as the Emperour counted himselfe Lord of the world so would he be called Patriarke of the world yet the Roman Patriarkes Pelagius and Gregorie did withstand his pride and neither would themselues take so much vpon them nor agrée that any Patriarke should doo it Wherefore when Pelagius ordeined that if any Metropolitan sent not to the see of Rome to shew his faith and receiue the pall he should be depriued Pelagius must be thought to haue made that ordinance for all Metropolitans within his own diocese not throughout the world The testimony of Gregory which your selfe alleaged touching the Bishop of Salonae is a proofe thereof For that my Bishops saith he should despise me I impute it to my sinnes and if the causes of Bishops committed to me be dealt with thus alas what shall I doo Hart. Nay although he say Bishops committed to me and my Bishops yet is that no proofe that onely certaine Bishops were of his diocese For he might signifie all Bishops by those wordes as being all his subiects Rainoldes The Patriarkes of Antioche and Alexandria will deny that or rather Gregorie him â—elfe For him selfe exhorting them to withstand the pride of the Patriarke of Constantinople who would be vniuersall Patriarke stand ye strong saith he and keepe all the Bishops subiect to your charge from defiling them selues with consent to this pride Where by it is manifest that onely certaine Bishops were subiect to his charge whom he termed his Bishops and Bishops committed to him And this appéereth further by that which Diaconus writeth in his life that when there were Bishoprikes voide in his diocese he desired Bishops of an other diocese who were destitute to take them as the Bishop of Smyrna to take a Bishoprike in Sicilia Howbeit if Gregorie and Pelagius both had meant generally of all Metropolitans through the whole world that they should be allowed by the Popes consent yet neither wouâ—d that proue the Popes of the second sort to haue auouched that soueraintie of power ouer Bishops which your last sort of Popes doth and toucheth their supremacie most For they of the second taught that all Bishops ought to bee chosen by the people and clergie them selues requiring onely the confirming of Metropolitans by their consent if that be granted Where these of the last doo claime to them selues the right not of confirming alone but of choosing too both Metropolitans and Bishops and binde them by othe for more assurance of their State to obserue and cause to be obserued by others the Papall reseruations prouisions and mandates by which they worke this tyrannie Hart. It is more requisite that the Popes in our time should reserue Bishoprikes to their owne bestowing that they may prouide good Pastors for the Church then it was of olde And therefore lesse maruell if they choose them selues such as they know fit and will haue the confirming of such as other choose though their predecessours when the dayes were better did neither choose any nor confirme all But the Popes supremacie
of Constantinople to haue bene meant by Gregorie it is now declared in your Gratian too The Patriarke was too loftie to confesse himselfe subiect to the Pope he sought to make the Pope his subiect Hart. Perhaps he had sought it before but not then For certainely S. Gregorie saying that the Church of Constantinople is subiect to the See of Rome addeth that Eusebius the Bishop of the same citie doth confesse it still Rainoldes There was no Eusebius Bishop of that citie in all Gregories time And they who were Bishops first Iohn then Cyriacus did vsurpe the title of vniuersall Patriarke as Gregorie himselfe declareth Wherefore either Gregorie wrote more then was true to chéere vp his subiects or some hath chopt into him that which he wrote not to aduaunce the credit of the See of Rome But howsoeuer he thought all Bishops subiect to it if any fault be found in them perhaps as S. Peter was subiect to S. Paule and Christians are one to an other to be reproued by their brethren when they do offend but if he meant more as perhaps he did of a good wil to his See yet he meant not that which toucheth the point of the Popes supremacie geuen you to proue to wéete that Bishops causes through the whole world must be referred to him And hereof himselfe is a sufficient witnesse in that he ouerruleth the case by the law of Iustinian the Emperour For if any man sayth he accuse a Bishop for whatsoeuer cause let the cause bee iudged by his Metropolitan If any man gainsay the Metropolitans iudgemeÌ„t let it be referred to the Archbishop and Patriarke of that diocese and let him end it according to the canons and lawes Hart. The causes of Bishops I grant must first be heard of their Metropolitans and next of their Patriarkes Yet if the Patriarkes iudgement be misliked too then may the partie gréeued appeale to the Pope and so they come to him last Rainoldes Gregorie meant not so but that the last iudge thereof should be the Patriarke as did Iustinian also Which they shew playnely by saying Let him end it according to the canons and lawes For both the canons of that Councell which referred the causes of Bishops to the Patriarkes did meÌ„tion theÌ„ as the last Iudges the lawes of Emperours which granted appeales from Metropolitans to them granted no appeale from them to any other nay for bad expressely al appealing from them Hart. Yet euen there S. Gregorie giueth a speciall priuilege and preeminence to the Pope aboue other Patriarkes For he addeth that if a Bishop haue no Metropolitan nor Patriarke at all then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolike which is the head of all Churches Rainoldes True he addeth that beyond the canons of Councels and the lawes of Emperours But in the meane season he yéeldeth that the causes of Bishops who were subiecte to any other Patriarke must not be referred to the Popes See Whereby it is euident that not all their causes through the whole world were claimed by S. Gregorie And herewithal by this place it may be noted too that when he nameth the See and Church of Rome the head of all Churches he meaneth it of excellencie for sundrie giftes aboue them not of the supremacie for power to gouerne them Which answereth the question that you made before vpoÌ„ the same title If the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops For the name of head is geuen to that Church in respect of others as if the citie of London shoulde bée called in England the head of all cities The Lord Mayor of London might chauÌ„ce to haue a fauourer who would aske thereon If the citie of London be the head of all cities why not the Mayor of London the head of all Mayors But I knowe no Mayor so simple in England that vpon this sophisme would yéelde himselfe a subiect to the Lord Mayor of London Hart. Yet your selues grant yâ— Zosimus Boniface Caelestinus did claime the right of appeales to be made to theÌ„ in the causes of Bishops through the whole world Who being Popes before Gregorie almost two hundred yeares it followeth that they of the second sort did auouch as much for the Popes supremacie in iudging church-Church-causes as their successours of the last doe which you denied Rainoldes And I denie it still neither doth that proue it For the last sort claimeth al the greater causes of the church Wherein they comprehend not only the causes of Bishops and the Clergie but of all estates as many as doe fall within the reserued cases as they call them And because these cases by the ancient Councels should be all determined within their ownâ— Prouinces not referred to Rome therefore no Councel may prescribe a law they say to bind them But the other whom you named of the second sort did neither take vpon them such power ouer Councels nor claime appeales in causes of any but of Bishops or Clergie at the most As for the cases which Popes reserue now from ordinarie Iudges to their owne Eschequer the seconde sort of Popes was so farre from doing it that they were in their graues many hundred yeares before the sent thereof was felt Wherefore you ouerreachâ—d your selfe M. Hart when you sayde that the Bishop of Rome hath alwayes vsed the practise of the supremacie For it is apparant by this which I haue shewed that not one of them for the space of sixe hundred yeares after Christ did euer either vse it or claime it as his right Hart. Yes they hearde the causes of Clergie-men appealing to them and held that they might doe so Wherefore they claimed the supremacie and vsed it too Rainoldes Which reason is as good as if a Kentish Gentleman should say that all the Countie of Kent is his own because he hath a Lordship in the Weald of Kent Hart. What doe you accounte it so small a matter that Clergie-men yea Bishops shoulde appeale to them out of all prouinces through the whole world Rainoldes A goodly Lordship and large But nothing so large as the Weald of Kent much lesse as all Kent There are many Lordships mo within the Countie which the auncient Popes neither had nor claimed One Lordship of being subiecte to no man no not to the Emperour An other of hauing power ouer Princes to excommunicate and depose them An other of binding Bishops Metropolitanes and Patriarkes with an oth to be their faythful subiects An other of giuing Church-liuings and offices vnto whom they list An other of breaking the bandes of al Councels with dispensations and decrées An other of reseruing cases to their Sée Whereof to passe the rest which you may finde recorded in their Rolles and Chancerie sith they neither chalenged nor
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome that from the mother cities as they were called religiō might be spread abroad vnto the daughters Now because this residence in the mother-cities was afterward supplied by the Bishops of them therefore the Fathers are wont often-times to call the Apostles Bishops of those cities wherin they did abide most Which they might the rather for that the word in their spéech betokeneth in a generall meaning any charge ouersight of others in so much that the scripture applieth it to the ministery of the Apostles also And in this sort it seemeth to be said as by Cyprian that a Bishop was to be ordeined in the roome of Iudas so by Ierome that Peter was Bishop of Antioch by Chrysostom that Iames was Bishop of Ierusalē Though whither it wer or no yet that which I spake in defense of Chrysostō is cléered by himself frō your reproch of a shift For he saith that Iames was Bishop as they say Which words as they say import that he spake it on the words of others most likely of Clemēs frō whom Eusebius fetcheth it But if notwithstanding you reply that Chrysostom allowed that they say and supposed Iames to be a Bishop properly then his words haue so much the greater importance against your supremacy séeing that they giue the principalitie to Iames in his owne dioces and that aboue Peter Howbeit I will not take this aduantage because I know that neither Peter nor Iames gaue the definitiue sentence but when they had spoken their mindes of the matter the Councell did define it and decrée it with common iudgement Hart. They did it with common iudgement I deny not But Theodoret sheweth that Peter as a Prince had a great prerogatiue therein aboue the rest yea gaue definitiue sentence to which the rest consented and as it were subscribed For he in an epistle which he wrote to Leo affirmeth that Paul did runne to great Peter to bring a resolution from him vnto them who contended at Antioche about the obseruation of the lawe of Moses Rainoldes You may cite if you list S. Isidore too for an other speciall prerogatiue of Peter as good as this and grounded likewise on the Actes which he alleageth to proue it to wit that the name of Christians arose at Antioche first through the preaching of Peter For though hee bée more direct against the scripture which sheweth that the name of Christians arose vpon the preaching not of Peter but of Paul and Barnabas yet is Theodoret direct against it too by giuing as proper peculiar to Peter that which was cōmon to the Apostles and Elders whose resolution he was sent for And as Isidore séemeth to haue ouershot him selfe by flip of memorie on too great a fansie perhaps towardes Peter in like sort Theodoret séeking to get the fauour of Leo bishop of Rome whose help he stode in neede of did serue his owne cause in saying that Paul ranne to great Peter that so he might run much more to great Leo. Which words to haue issued out from that humor his commentaries on the Scriptures where he sought the trueth and folowed the text shewe For therein he saith of Barnabas and Paul that they ran not to great Peter but to the great Apostles and had a resolution from them of the question about the keping of the law Howbeit if Theodorets words vnto Leo suffered no exceptiō the most were that Peter pronounced the definitiue sentence as President not gaue it as Prince But the Scripture it selfe by the rule whereof his wordes must be tryed maketh no more for Peters Presidentshippe then for Iames and whosoeuer were President it sheweth that neither Iames nor Peter but the Councel gaue the definitiue sentence So well it proueth that which you vndertooke to proue concerning Peter that he had as ful power in the assemblies of the Apostles as the Prince hath in a parlament yea or the pope in a Councell Harte It proueth that wel-inough though not to you chiefly if other places thereof be waied withall For the singular power of Peter is declared also by S. Paul in that he saith to the Galatians Then after three yeares I came to Ierusalem to see Peter and taried with him fifteene dayes Rainoldes The singular power of Peter In which words By what reason Because hee went to Ierusalem to see him Or because he went after three yeares Or because hee stayed with him fifteene dayes Hart. The reason consisteth in that which Paule did the cause for which he did it For he went to Ierusalē to see Peter Why but to do him honour as Ierom saith in his Commentaries and in an epistle to Austin Peter was saith he of so great authoritie that Paule wrote Then after three yeares and so forth And Chrysostome Because Peter saith he was the mouth of the Apostles the chiefe and top of the company therefore Paule went vp to see him aboue the rest Because it was meet saith Ambrose that he should desire to see Peter vnto whom our Sauiour had committed the charge of Churches Which also Tertullian affirmeth that he did of duetie and right Nor otherwise Theodoret he gaue saith he that honour to the prince of the Apostles which it was fitte hee should Hence it is that S. Gregory doubteth not to say that Paule the Apostle was the yonger brother And S. Austin an Apostle made after Peter who saith moreouer that the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter Rainoldes You bring in witnesses not necessarie to proue a thing not denied For that Paule was as Apostle in time after Peter and so his yonger brother as Gregory Austin and Ambrose say that he went to see Peter for honor and reuerence which he bare to him as it is in Ierom Chrysostome and Theodoret that he did this of duetie and right what right and duetie of the same faith and preaching of the gospell to shew his concord with him which is the meaning of Tertullian all this will I graunt you the scriptures teach as much what néede the Fathers to proue it Hart. Will you graunt all that which I alleaged out of the Fathers then will you grant that Protestants are in an error and the truth is ours For they auouch plainely the primacie of Peter and call him the mouth the prince the toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes Alas you were agreed me thought to go through with the scripture first afterward come to the Fathers I wisse they will giue you small cause of triumphing ouer the Protestants when you shall bring their forces out into the field and see with whom they ioine with you or with vs. But of the rest then Now I graunt you so much as doth concerne the point for
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
two and twentéeth as they number it For where it should be read as our Latin hath it and the Greeke also they haue pearced my hands and my feete the Hebrues now do reade not Caaru that is they haue pearced but Caari that is as a Lion as a Lion my hands and my feete Whereby a notable prophecie describing so plainely the maner and kind of the passion of Christ should bée taken out of our hands through the trechery of the Iewes if wée should folow the Hebrew text as it is now But it is so manifestly knowne to be corrupted that your selues though allowing the Hebrew as authenticall yet folowe it not in this place in your English Bibles Rainoldes This is the onely argument that Lindan hath of any shew to proue that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text But if it be weighed with an euen ballance you shall find it a meere cauill For what will you say of your owne selues Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis where it is read of the woman she shall bruse thy head for that which should be read of thewomans séed he shall bruse thy head Hart. Some of your men say so But they do great iniury to the Church therin Rainoldes They haue as great cause at least if not greater to say this of Romanistes as you the other of the Iewes For if we match the prophecies this is more notable which is corrupted in your Latin of the victorie of Christ ouer Satan and ours through him If we compare errors this is more manifest in so much that it is proued to be an error euen by Lindan also not onely by others and the Hebrue text with the Chaldee paraphrase and the Greeke translation do all make against it as the Diuines of Louan graunt Hart. But this might créepe in by some humane ouersight or negligence of scriueners as sundry such errours haue crept in to writen bookes of all sortes euen in the best copies The words ipsa and ipse in which the variance lyeth doo not so greatly differ but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other Rainoldes No more do the wordes Caaru Caari The differēce is as smal Wherfore if the one might be an ouersight of scriueners in the Latin as you say and truely why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew as it is gessed by Andradius And that it was so it is declared at large by Arias Montanus who for his singular knowledge and iudgement both in artes and tongues was chosen as I said to ouersée the setting foorth of that famous Bible in Hebrewe Chaldee Greeke and Latin which was printed at Anwerpe with the approbation of your Popes and Doctors For in the sixth tome of that worke he sheweth that when the Iewes returned into their countrey after their captiuitie of seuentie yeares in Babylon it befell vnto them partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their mindes partly by corruption of their natiue tongue which was growne out of kind first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake that they neither knewe nor pronounced so wel the words of the scripture writen as the maner was without vowels Whereby it came to passe that in the writing of them their crept in some faulte either through iniury of the times or by reason of troubles which fell vpon the people or by negligence of some scriueners But this inconuenience was met withall afterward by most learned men such as Esdras was and afterward Gamaliel Ioseus Eleazar and other of great name who prouided by common trauell with great care and industry that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof should be preserued most sound and vncorrupt And from these men or from their instruction being receaued and poolished by their scholers in the ages folowing there came saith he as we iudge that most profitable treasure which is called Masoreth that is to say a deliuery because it doth deliuer aboundantly and faithfully all the diuers readings that euer were of the Hebrewe Bibles Wherein there appeareth an euident token of the prouidence of God for the preseruation of the sacred bookes of scripture whole and sound that the Masóreth hath beene kept till our time these many hundred yeares with such care and diligence that in sundry copies of it which haue bene writen no difference was euer found and it hath beene added in all the writen Bibles that are in Europe Afrike or Asia each of them agreing throughly therein with other euen as it is printed in the Venice-bibles to the great wonder of them who reade it Now in this Masoreth made so long ago so diligently writen so faithfully kept in so many countryes through so many ages as Arias Montanus witnesseth the Iewes them selues acknowledge by their owne testimonie that where in common bookes it is read Caari in certaine it is Caaru Wherefore if some Iewish scriueners who wrote out bookes depraued it of malice and spite which might be though they who accuse them doo bring neither autour nor time nor any sure argument to proue it but if some depraued it yet séeing their Masôreth doth note the diuerse reading and in part doth iustifie that which is the truer it is hard to charge them as you doo with corrupting of the Hebrewe text Much harder then if we should charge your Romish church with corrupting of the Latin where you read ipsa in stéed of ipse not he but she shall bruse thy head Hart. Not so for we haue kept also that reading ipse euen in our vulgar Latin translation For the Diuines of Louan do note that it is found in two writen copies And we do confesse it to be more agréeable both to the Hebrewe text and the Chaldee paraphrase the Greeke translation yea that S. Ierom read it so too as you may see in the Notations of Franciscus Lucas to which our latin Bibles set forth by the Diuines of Louan doo referre you Rainoldes Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it and saith that all the Latin copies which they could finde doo read it ipsa and of the two which you mention he doubteth whether one did folow the Latin or the Hebrewe and hee maketh shew of proofe that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin with a litle hammering of it Yea and that is more as in al the Bibles that I haue séene of yours the Latin hath ipsa not ipse shee not he though your greatest frends haue wished you forshame to mēd it so in an Hebrue text of the famous Bible of king Philip which but now I mētioned the word he is altered according to the latin shee and that not of errour but of purpose as it is witnessed by Franciscus Lucas Which is greater boldnes in corrupting the Hebrue thē you can
of Constantine as you would haue vs to imagin Their meaning was onely to shew that the Canons which are called the Canons of the sixth Councell were made by other Bishops in the time of Iustinian long after that Councell and therefore are falsly fathered vpon that Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons whosoeuer made them Rainoldes He is not as much as named in any of them saue onely in the first where they who named him haue named him so that both they haue seuered them selues from the sixth Councell by which he was condemned and haue encreased the credit of it For they recken him amongst the heads of the Monotheliâ—es and say of them all that the sixth Councell did condemne them iustly Hart. That Canon sauoureth of corruption which speaketh so of Pope Honorius Rainoldes So. What say you then to the sixth generall Councell it seâ—fe They doo speake of him a great deale more bittâ—rly reprouing his doctâ—ine as the doctrine of heretikes false wicked pestilent Nor thinking it enough to condemne his doctrine they curse his name and person also Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general councel are corrupted Rainoldes The sixth generall Councell hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretikes in eightene actions as they are termed In the first action the eight and the eleuenth the heretikes alleage in their owne defense that Pope Honorius taught as they doo In the twelfth and thirtenth his writinges are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the sixtenth seuententh and eightenth the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel Thinke you that the copies of the actions of the Councell are corrupted in all those places Hart. In all in which Honorius is condemned or cursed Rainoldes What and that those places are corrupted in all copies and that without difference all after one sort al with the same wordes Hart. All why not is that impossible Rainoldes Not impossible yet improbable But the seuenth generall Councell which you esâ—éeme so greatly for their defense of image-worship this seuenth doth make no better account of Honorius Hart. The seuenth generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But in the eight general Councel there is rehersed a spéech of Adrian the Pope which he had vttered in a councell assembled by himselfe In that he affirmeth that the Bishops of the east did condemne Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome Hart. The eight generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But Leo the second who was Pope then when the sixth Councell was ended doth namely confirme this point with these wordes we accurse Honorius who hath not lightned this Apostolike Church with Apostolike doctrine but by wicked treacherie hath labored to subuert the vndefiled faith Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too Rainoldes But many other learned both Gréeke and Latin autors Beda Psellus Vmbertus Balsamon Marianus Scotus Tharasius and the easterne bishops yea your owne Pontificall of the Popes liues make reporte of it Hart. What néedeth this adoo It is all answered by Father Robert in a word For either these autors are corrupted them selues or they were deceiued by the copies of the sixth councell being corrupted Rainoldes The saying of Tully I sée is verie true He that is once gone beyond the boundes of modestie must lustily be impudent Albertus Pighius an Archpapist intending to proue in his bookes of the holy princehood of the Church that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the soueraine iudge of all Christians whom they are bound to heare and folow because it was absurd he thought and very daungerous to attribute so great a power to one man vnles the man were such as might not erre in faith therefore he tooke vpon him to bring in this doctrine that the praier of Christ for Peters faith not to faile doth priuilege the Pope from falling into any heresie Whereupon as in generall he denied that the Pope may be an heretike though all Diuines and Canonistes by his confession graunt it so to clense Honorius thereof in particular hée said that the copies of the sixth Councell which made against him were corrupted This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by lerned men of his own side in so much that one of them reproued him for it in a publike assembly wisht him to recant it They alleaged against him that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretike by two generall Councels the sixth and the seuenth wherofthe authoritie ought to be held as sacred But Pighius was so farre from being moued therewith that he wrote a new treatise against those two Councels affirming them to be corrupted and in heat of zeale for the Popes quarell he called the sixth Councell a most cursed Councell Here the Councels case and perill that was like to fall on all autours if such hot heads might make such desperate answeres did stirre vp the spirite of Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius whom he hath confuted and proued that Honorius was in deede an heretike condemned by the Councell iustly Sith the which time though Hosius a Cardinall and Onuphrius a Fryer men of hard foreheads haue taken Pighius part yet neither haue they strengthned the reasons of Pighius shaken in péeces by Torrensis and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound namely Iouerius Canus Andradius and Alfonsus a Castro haue shewed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both Yea â—ur countriman Harding who would not graunt so much of any other Pope yet graunted of Honorius that he may be iustly burdened with heresie and fell in deede into it But now behold a newe gamster a Iesuit Father Robert doth set vpon the matter fresh and teacheth in his solemne lectures at Rome that it is true the Pope may be an heretike marry it is probable and godly to be thought that he cannot be an heretike A straunge resolution and fitte for a Iesuit Yet to shew how probable he can make that seeme which he confesseth to be false by holding the contrarie therof to be true he saith somewhat for euery one of those Popes that are charged with heresie and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently then Pighius himselfe For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth or seuenth Councell onely but all that come in his way Councels Popes Grâ—ekes Latins Historians Diuines either they are corrupted or abused by corruption Well may the opinion which Father Robert saith for be probable false both But this of Honorius by which he would confirme it is out of all doubt though false yet not probable Hart. It is probable enough as Father Robert handleth it For streames may be corrupted as easily as the fountaine
say withall that this encrease of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregories time yet are they notably disproued by S. Gregorie himselfe in whose reigne as it may probably be thought the Churches possessions were more then they be now at this present And this appeereth by sundry of his epistles where he maketh expresse mention of S. Peters patrimonie in Africke in Naples in Campania in Dalmatia in Fraunce in Italie in Sicilia in Sardinia and in many other countries Now then whereas for this which is the greatest part so good proofes may be made there is no doubt but for sundry other very great and large giftes of diuers Princes many Nobles men and women which were bestowed vpon that Sée the Bishops thereof can shew very good euidence when nede shall require Marry if any of all the Bishops that euer were in that seat flowing thus in wealth abused the same to any euill purpose or els their authoritie when they were become so mightie in any of the pointes which are mentioned by you I am so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather I râ—w to sée it and I condemne them therefore But thereof wee shall haue occâ—sion to treate more particularly in the chapters folowing Onely this is it which I go about to proue and defend in them that because of Christes promise of building his Church vpon that rocke and prayer also that their faith should not faile they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence And thus much I am sure the very same autours whose names here you bring in against me do mainteine no lesse then I doo howsoeuer they carpe and finde fault with the Popes naughtie maners Wherefore to drawe to an ende whether all that hath béene said hithertoo or shall be said hereafter touching the practise of the Popes supremacie doo proue his supreme authoritie or not I referre the iudgement thereof M. Rainoldes to your selfe and to euery indifferent reader Certes I haue endeuored somewhat to doo it though nothing so wel I graunt as such a cause requireth But as I said you shall sée it proued yet furthermore by the practise thereof which the Bishop of Rome hath alwaies vsed bearing himselfe as supreme pastour of our soules next vnder Christ which thing was neuer denyed him but graunted of all men without resistance Let their spéeches and déedes bee a iustifying of him and let their behauiour generally towardes him bée an instruction for vs to folow them in their well dooing Iohn Hart. Rainoldes If you loue me the better M. Hart for my plaine dealing in so weightie a matter as you say you must I would to God you would deale as plainely with me that I might in like sort loue you the better too But neither doo you yéelde to that which I haue proued by euidence of truâ—h and although you cannot disproue my proofes of it yet you seeke to shift them off by fraude and falsehood For whereas I shewed that the Pope pretending discharge of his office in gouernment of the Church hath gotten his temporall dominion from Emperours by treâ—son and rebellion and practised vnlawâ—ull power in thinges spirituall to the oppressing of Christendome and therefore erred in office yea in the supremacie which he hath vsurped ouer both the states spirituall and temporall you for the first point of his dominion temporall doo go about to cléere him by sophismes and lyes for the next of his tyrannie in spiritual things you smooth it as a lawfull autoritie abused for the last of his erring in office you abbridge it to iudgement and definitiue sentence and wrappe his supremacie vp in generall wordes as allowed by all men when in the particular pointes of the supremacie you can not iustifie it by any Festus the Roman thought Paul to bee madde the madnes was in Festus him selfe noâ— in Paul You thinke that I erre of a wrong perswasion the errour is your owne not mine M. Hart. The fautes of your dealing for the maintaining of your errour I will set before you if perhaps the Lorde will open your eyes and vntye your tongue that you may at length perceiue and confesse the Popes supremacie to be vnlawfull To begin therefore with the first point wherein you séeke to cléere him from hauing vsurped his temporall dominion you say that if we weigh thinges with indifferencie and in equall balance I shall wel perceiue that both Emperours and other Princes adioyning vnto him haue rather vsurped of his then hee of theirs Which if you tooke not thinges at hucksters handes without all weighing of them you would neuer say For that which I haue laide in one scale of the balance is the manifest truth of recordes euidences approued by the witnesse of writers verie credible who note the times the persons the meanes and all circumstances how the Pope vsurped And that which you lay in the other scale to ouerweigh mine is partlie impertinent and nothing to the purpose partlie vntrue and impudentlie forged The weightiest parcel of it is that which cometh formost namely that a good autour doth write that S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished through the Popes negligent looking vnto it What is that good autour M. Hart who writeth so Why doo you not name him Is it because you feare that I should finde he maketh nought for you if I knew him or that you would put me to the paines of séeking him I pray vse hereafter at least so much plainenesse to name me the autours on which your proofes are grounded sith I not onely name them but quote their places also whereon I ground mine that you may the better sift them and iudge of them The autour who writeth that which you alleage is Nicolas Clemangis a Doctour of Paris that liued about a ninescore yeares since in déed a good autour Who lamenting the wretched and corrupt state of the Church in his time declareth the Pope to haue béene the fiâ—ebrand of her calamities and disorders in that not contented with the fruites and profits of the Bishopricke of Rome and S. Peters patrimonie though very great and royal he laide his greedy handes on other mens flockes replenished with milke and wooll and vsurped the right of bestowing Bishoprickes and liuings ecclesiasticall throughout all Christendom and disanulled the lawfull elections of pastors by his reseruations prouisions and aduowsons and oppresâ—ed churches with first fruites of one yeare of two yeares of three yeares yea sometimes of â—oure yeares with tithes with exactions with procurations with spoiles of Prelates and infinite other burdens and ordeined collectors to seaze vpon these taxes and tributes throughout al prouinces with horrible abusing of suspensions interditements and excommunications if any man refused to pay them vsed such marchandize with suites in his Court and rules of his Chauncerie that the house of God was made a denne of theeues and raised his Cardinals as
they came off in what time they liued how often they gaue orders in what yeare they died and where they were buried Wherefore it is no maruaile that hee noted not what epistles they wrote Though in a writen copie at Rome which Turrian saw there is mention made of one of their epistles namely of Anacletus Rainoldes In a writen copie at Rome it may be but in no printed copie yet An ouersight of some who when Frier Suâ—ius set forth the Councels last did not informe him of it that hâ— might haue mended it in Damasus But if Damasus thought it a matter worth the noting how often they gaue orders it is very likely that he would haue noted how they wrote sometimes too if they had béene such writers As for Eusebius and Ierom though I graunt all writers came not to their hands yet were it very straunge that the one of them being in great fauour with Constantine the Roman Emperour the other attending on Damasus the Roman Bishop in ecclesiasticall writings both of them desirous and curious to know all Christian writers monuments purposely to speake of them neither of them could sée one of these epistles that such and so many Bishops of Rome had writen Chiefely sith they found sundry epistles writen by them which they mention and yet of all which they found there is not one amongst these nether Hart. Those which then were common might be lost since and these which now we haue might be then vnknowne Nether is it reason that all they should be said to haue writen nothing whose writings are not commonly knowne vnto men For euen now there are as Turrian reporteth in the Popes librarie manie bookes of epistles of the later Popes which containe the actes and déedes of each their Popedomes whence they are commonly called registers of Gregorie the seuenth Innocent the third Honorius the third Gregorie the ninth Innocent the fourth Alexander the fourth Vrban the fourth Clemens the fourth Nicolas the third Honorius the fourth Boniface the eighth Iohn the two and twentéeth Clemens the sixth Innocent the sixth and Vrban the fifth And these are known of few men because they are in writing â—nely and not printed besides very few which Gregorie the ninth and Boniface the eighth haue taken out of them and compilâ—d them in the Decretals to the vse of Church-causes But if these perhaps should be set forth hereafter would you say that they are forged because there hath no mention of them beene made by writers nor by the Popes themselues nay which the Popes them selues perhaps neuer saw Rainoldes The comparison is vn-euen when you say that the Popes them selues neuer saw bookes in their owne librarie thereby to shew that many bookes might be there which Ierom and Eusebius knew not For it is likely that the Popes haue many bookes which they sée not they haue other thinges to looke on But Eusebius and Ierom did study through libraries to see all the autours which were extant in them So that they were as likely to know the epistles of the former Popes as Turrian these of the later For Turrian doth not search olde monumentes more carefully to see vp the Pope then Ierom and Eusebius did to set foorth Christ. But whatsoeuer Ierom or Eusebius saw thinke you not that the Popes as litle as they sée the bookes in their librarie yet if the sight of any thereof could auaile them toward the recouering of their supremacy in England they would finde it quickly Hart. I thinke it should be foorth coming to doo good Rainoldes Then haue the Centuries in this place of witnesses a very strong proofe that about the time of Ierom and Eusebius these epistles were not in the Popes librarie For there is no mention made of them at all either in the Councel of Carthage or of Afrike in which the Pope endeuouring to shew that appeales might lawfully be made to him would haue allâ—aged them of likelyhood had they béene extant But this probabilitie noted by the Centuries Turrian passeth ouer in silence very smoothly where yet he maketh semblance of answering al their witnesses belike after Antonies precept in Tully who wisheth men if they be troubled with a hard argument to say nothing to it Howbeit all these I graunt are but likelyhoodes Notwithstanding if you adde to these likelyhoodes of Damasus of Ierom of Eusebius of the Popes them selues this also that neither any other Father or autour worthie of credit may be lightly found that hath alleaged them before the time of Charles the great about eight hundred yeares after Christ it may be well thought that there was good cause why the Centuries should suspect them Hart. Nay that is the later part of their argument which as I saide is vntrue For Isidore who liued aboue a hundred yeares before Charles the great did gather them together at the request of fourescore Bishops So that we haue foure score Bishops in that one to testifie with vs against that lyâ— of the Centuries Rainoldes But how know you that which you tell of Isidore and fourescore Bishops to be true Hart. How By the preface of Isidore him selfe set before the Councels For therein hauing shewed how he was moued by the request of fourescore Bishops to gather the canons together and we haue enterlaced saith he the decrees of certaine epistles of the Bishops of Rome to weete of Clemens Anacletus Euaristus and the rest such epistles as wee could finde yet til Siluester the Pope after the which we haue set downe the Councell of Nice and after that the remnant of the Popes decrees euen vntill S. Gregoriâ— Thus farre S. Isidore And is not he a Father an autour worthie of credit Rainoldes Admit that he is so what doo you conclude thereof against the Centuries Hart. Euen that which Genebrard doth to vtter it with his wordes then doo the Centurie-writers erre who keepe a babling that those epistles decretall of the auncient Popes are not alleaged by any autour worthie of credit before the time of Charles the great Rainoldes Your Genebrard sheweth him selfe a cunning man stil against the Centurie-writers For whereas they sayâ—â— you shall not lightly finde it he clippeth off the word lightly that the thing being found in a preface of Isidores he may charge them with errour to discredit the heretikes But what if S. Isidore did not write that preface What if he be a counterfeit too Hart. Marry now you haue the way if you can hold it Deny all the writers that doo make against you and say they bee counterfeit So shameles a cause you vndertake as shameles patrones that but by sâ—ameles meanes you are not able to maintaine it Rainoldes Nay patience I pray Me thought you were agréed that I might lawfully eâ—cept against a Father if he were counterfeit Hart. True if he were so But it is no good exception in law to
the ecclesiasticall causes of clergie men that first they should be brought to the Bishop of the citie from the Bishop of the citie to the Metropolitan froÌ„ the Metropolitan to the Synode of the prouince froÌ„ the Synode of the prouince to the Patriarke of the diocese and a Patriarke is all one with an Archbishop in him Whereby you may perceiue both that an Archbishop had Metropolitans vnder him and that a diocese was more then a prouince In which respect I called it a Princely diocese to distinguish it from a Lordly that you might know I meant a diocese of a larger sise then as the word is taken for a Bishops circuite But that you may haue the cléerer light to sée the truth of mine answere and thereby to perceue how the Pope encroched on Bishops by degrées vntill of an equal he became a soueraine first ouer a few next ouer many at last ouer all I must fetch the matter of Bishops Metropolitans and Archbishops somewhat higher and shew how Christian cities prouinces and dioceses were allotted to them First therefore when Elders were ordeined by the Apostles in euery Church through euery citie to feede the flocke of Christ whereof the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers they to the intent they might the better doo it by common counsell and consent did vse to assemble themselues and méete togither In the which méetings for the more orderly handling and concluding of things pertaining to their charge they those one amongst them to be the President of their companie and moderatour of their actions As in the Church of Ephesus though it had sundry Elders and Pastours to guide it yet amongst those sundrie was there one chiefe whom our Sauiour calleth the Angel of the Church and writeth that to him which by him the rest should know And this is he whom afterward in the primitiue Church the Fathers called Bishop For as the name of Ministers common to all them who serue Christ in the stewardship of the mysteries of God that is in preaching of the gospell is now by the custome of our English spéech restrained to Elders who are vnder a Bishop so the name of Bishop common to all Elders and Pastours of the Church was then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him who had the Presidentship ouer Elders Thus are certaine Elders reproued by Cyprian for receiuing to the communion them who had fallen in time of persecution before the Bishops had aduised of it with them and others And Cornelius writeth that the Catholike Church committed to his charge had sixe and fortie Elders and ought to haue but one Bishop And both of them being Bishops the one of Rome the other of Carthage doo witnesse of them selues that they dealt in matters of their Churches gouernment by the consent and counsell of the companie of Elders or the Eldership as they both after S. Paule doo call it Hart. Elders and Eldership you meane presbyteros and presbyterium that is to say Priestes and Priesthood But these new fangled names came in by your English translations of the new testament which as our translation doth iustly note them for it haue changed Priestes into Elders of falshood and corruption and that of farther purpose then the simple can sée Which is to take away the office of sacrificing and other functions of Priestes proper in the new testament to such as the Apostles often and the posteritie in maner altogither doo call Priestes presbyteros Which word doth so certainely imply the authoritie of sacrificing that it is by vse made also the onely English of sacerdos your selues as well as we so translating it in all the olde and new testament though you cannot be ignorant that Priest commeth of presbyter and not of sacerdos and that antiquitie for no other cause applied the signification of presbyter to sacerdos but to shew that presbyter is in the new law that which sacerdos was in the olde the Apostles abstaining from this and other like olde names at the first and rather vsing the wordes Bishops Pastours and Priestes because they might be distinguished from the gouernours and sacrificers of Aarons order who as yet in the Apostles time did their olde functions still in the temple And this to be true and that to be a Priest is to be a man appointed to sacrifice your selues calling sacerdos alwaies a Priest must néedes be driuen to confesse Albeit your folly is therein notorious to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos and to take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly not onely in English but in other languages both French and Italian which is to take away the name that the Apostles and Fathers gaue to the Priestes of the Church and to giue it wholy and onely to the order of Aaron Rainoldes Wholy and onely to the order of Aaron Nay then I can abide your Rhemists no longer if their mouthes do so runne ouer For we giue it also to the order of Melchisedec after the which our Sauiour is is a Priest for euer And they who charge vs with falshood and corruption in that we call the Ministers of the gospell Elders are guiltie themselues of heresie and blasphemie in that they call them Priestes For they doo not call them Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices of prayers and good workes which Christians of al sortes are bound to offer vnto God and thence are called Priestes in scripture but they call them Priestes in respect of the carnall and external sacrifice of the cursed Masse wherein they pretend that they offer Christ vnder the formes of bread and wine to God his Father a sacrifice propiciatorie that is of force to pacifie God and reconcile him vnto men So whereas the scripture doth teach that one Priest by one sacrifice once offered that is our Sauiour Christ by giuing himself to death vpon the crosse hath reconciled God vnto vs and sanctified vs for euer the doctrine of Rhemes ordeineth many Priestes to offer vp often whether the same sacrifice that Christ or an other they speake staggeringly but to offer it often As though there were yet left an offering for sinne after the death of Christ or his pretious bloud were of no greater value then the blood of buls and goates which were offered often because they could not purge sinnes And this â—bomination they séeke to maintaine by the name of Priestes sith Priestes are men they say appointed to sacrifice and that name was giuen to them by the Apostles In saying whereof they doo play the Sophisters and that with greater art then the simple can sée Which is in that they vse our English word Priest after a dooble sort the one as it is deriued from presbyter the other as it signifieth the same that sacerdos For
about him some iudging with him some against yet referre they not the matter to the Pope but will the Metropolitan to call some other Bishops out of the next prouince that they may iudge together and decide the controuersie But if al the Bishops of the prouince agree and giue one senteÌ„ce of him then may he be iudged no more by any other no not by the Pope but that must stand which they haue said Hart. Yet the Councell of Sardica can not be denyed to haue made with vs. For there it was ordeined that if a Bishop depriued by the Bishops of his owne prouince appealed to the Pope the Pope if he thought good might write to the Bishops who were neere that prouince that they should examin the matter diligently and giue right iudgement of it or send him selfe also some from his owne side to iudge together with them Rainoldes When this was alleaged by the Popes legate in his behalfe at Carthage the Bishops of Afrike said after long serch that they found it not ordeined by any Councell Which moued a Doctour of your owne to write that it may be douted whether the Councell of Sardica ordeined it or no. And sith at that Councell there were not many lesse than fourtie Bishops of Afrike who brought home the canons thereof as it is likely his dout hath reason for it Unlesse peraduenture because in the fountaine and spring of that canon Iulius is named in whom the Councell had a speciall affiance for his dealing against the Arians therefore the Bishops of Afrike thought it to haue bene geueÌ„ personally to Iulius not to Popes in generall and so to haue died with him not liued with them But if it were ordeined indéede by the Councell in respect of him as Pope not as Iulius yet they who auouch it to proue the Popes supremacie doe make as good a reason as if a man should claime the whole citie of London because he hath the lease of a house in Hogsdon For the Councell of Sardica tieth him in all pointes saue only in this to his owne prouince as well as other Bishops and in this it sheweth that he had it not of right before time but now by that grant neither doth it grant him to iudge of the causes but to commend the iudgement therof to the Synode or at the most to be a fellow-iudge with theÌ„ and they in whose causes it granteth him so much are Bishops none else Howbeit euen this too that he should send some from his own side to iudge of their causes together with the Synode was repealed afterward and the whole committed to Synodes of the prouince or diocese if the prouince serued not Belike vpon experience of some harme ensuing as a husband man in Sicilie hauing rid stones out of his ground was troubled so with myre that he lost his corne till he had layde them in agayne For the generall Councell of Constantinople did forbid the Bishops of a diocese such as Egypt contayning many prouinces to meddle with the Churches without their owne limits and commaund that things in euery prouince should be ordered by the Synode of the prouince according to the canons of the Nicen Councell Hart. But they gaue the primacie of honour to the Bishop of Constantinople after the Bishop of Rome Which sheweth that the Bishop of Rome in their iudgement was ouer all in primacie Rainoldes In primacie of honour M. Hart not of power as I haue often sayd For in power they made him equall with his brethren enclosing them all within their owne limits and appointing the causes of Bishops to be iudged eche by his owne Synode first of the prouince then of the diocese without mention of the Pope Yet in honour they set him highest Constantinople next as the very wordes of the Councell shâ—w It is true that this height and preeminence of honour was a cause that moued him to lust for greater power too and meanes that lift him vp vnto it For as murderers in Italie are woont to flie to sanctuaries to escape punishment and Romulus receaued runagates at Rome to aduance his state so disorderly persons not able to maintaine their faultes against iustice in their owne prouince did runne to the Pope and ambitious heades whether of Popes themselues or of some about theÌ„ aspired to greater rule vnder pretense of priuiledges of the Church of Rome But as generall Councels had prouided generall salues against such euils so the Councels of prouinces and dioceses applied them to this particular sore for safetie of their Churches For it was decréed by the Councell of Mileuis that if any Elder or Deacon or clergie-man of inferiour state appealed to the Pope no man in Afrike should communicate with him The Councell of Carthage sheweth that they had often decreed the same of Bishops And when yet they could not auoide the shamelesse shiftes of tumultuous braines who made Rome their refuge and Zosimus in the quarell of Apiarius an Elder would haue his Bishop Vrban to be excommunicated or appeere at Rome the Bishops of all the prouinces of Afrike did debate the matter with him and his successors Boniface and Caelestine for the space of foure or fiue yeares together In fine when the true and authenticall copies of the Nicen Councell whereon the Pope grounded were gotten out of the East and thereby the falshoode of his plea appéered the Councell of Afrike told him that he should not meddle with the causes of men in their prouinces nor receaue any such to the communion as they had excommunicate For the Councell of Nice sayd they did consider wisely and vprightly that all matters ought to be determined in the places in which they began as being perswaded that the grace of the holy ghost would not be wanting to any prouince whereby the Christian Bishops might both wisely see and constantly maintaine the right Chiefly sith it is lawfull for any if he like not the sentence of his iudges to appeale to the Synodes of his owne prouince yea or farther also to a generall Synode Vnlesse there be any perhaps who will imagin that our God can inspire the triall of right into one man and denie it to a great number of Bishops assembled in a Synode And so going forward with proofe that the Pope ought not to iudge their causes either at Rome himselfe or by his Legates sent from Rome they touched his attempt in modest sort but at the quicke condemning it of pride smokie statelinesse of the world Hart. I maruell if the Councel of Afrike wrote thus as you report of it For Torrensis citeth an epistle of theirs to proue the Popes supremacie Rainoldes Torrensis citeth it with as much sinceritie as an other Iesuite doth the foure general Councels both fowly abusing the shew of some wordes against the drift
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on thē the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a cōmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As