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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69545	The diocesans tryall wherein all the sinnewes of Doctor Dovvnhams defence are brought into three heads, and orderly dissolved / by M. Paul Baynes ; published by Dr. William Amis ...	Baynes, Paul, d. 1617.; Ames, William, d. 1662.	1641 (1641)	Wing B1546; ESTC R5486	91,441	102

upon every occasion are enforced to take such corporall oathes as not one of them doth ever keep What other ground of this beside the fore-mentioned that particular Congregations are no spirituall incorporations and therefore must have no officers for government within themselves Now all these confusions with many others of the same kind how they are condemned in the very foundation of them M. Bains here sheweth in the first question by maintaining the divine constitution of a particular Church in one Congregation In which question he maintaineth against his adversaries a course not unlike to that which Armachanus in the daies of King Edward the third contended for against the begging F●iers in his booke called The defence of Curates For when those Friers incroach●d upon the priviledges of Parochiall Ministers he withstood them upon these grounds Ecclesia Parochialis juxta verba Mosis Deut. 12. est locus electus a Deo in quo debemus accipere cuncta quae praecipit Dominus ex Sacramentis Parochus est ordinaritu Parochiani est persona a Deo praecepta vel mandato Dei ad illud ministerium explendum electa which if they be granted our adversaries cause may goe a begging with the foresaid Friers Another sort of corruptions there are which though they depend upon the same ground with the former yet immediately flow out of the Hierarchie What is more dissonant from the revealed will of Christ in the Gospell even also from the state of the Primitive Church t●en that the Church and Kingdome of Christ should be managed as the Kingdomes of the world by a Lordly authority with externall pompe commanding power contentious courts of judg●ment furnished with chancellors officials commissaries advocates proctors paritors and such like humane devices Yet all this doth necessarily follow upon the admitting of such Bishops as ours are in England who not onely are Lords over the flock but doe professe so much in the highest degree when they tell us plainly that their Lawes or Canons doe binde mens consciences For herein we are like the people of Israel who would not have God for their immediate King but would have such Kings as other Nations Even so the Papists and we after them refuse to have Christ●an immediate King in the immediate government of the Church but must have Lordly Rulers with state in Ecclesiasticall affaires such as the world hath in civill What a miserable pickle are the most of our Ministers in when they are urged to give an account of their calling To a Papist indeed they can give a shifting answer that they have ordination from Bishops which Bishops were ordained by other Bishops and they or their ordainers by Popish Bishops this in part may stop the mouth of a Papish but let a Protestant which doubteth of these matters move the question and what then will they say If they flie to popish Bishops as they are popish then let them goe no longer masked under the name of Protestants If they alledge succession by them from the Apostles then to say nothing of the appropriating of this succession unto the Popes chaire in whose name and by whose authority o●r English Bishops did all things in times past then I say they must take a great time for the satisfying of a poore man concerning this question and for the justifying of their station For untill that out of good records they can shew a perpetuall succession from the Apostles unto their Diocesan which ordained them and untill they can make the poore man which doubteth perceive the truth and certainty of those records which I wiss● they will doe at leasure they can never make that succession appeare If they flye to the Kings authority the King himse●fe will forsake them and deny that he taketh upon him to make or call Ministers If to the present Bishops and Archbishops alas they are as farre to seeke as themselves and much further The proper cause of all this misery is the lifting up of a lordly Prelacy upon the ruines of the Churches liberties How intollerable a bondage is it that a Minister being called to a charge may not preach to his people except he hath a licence from the Bishop or Archbishop Cannot receive the best of his Congregation to communion if he be censured in the spirituall Courts though it be but for not paying of six pence which they required of him in any name be the man otherwise never so innocent nor keep one from the communion that is not presented in those Courts or being presented is for money absolved though he be never so scandalous and must often times if hee will hold his place against his conscience put backe those from communion with Christ whom Christ doth call unto it as good Christians if they will not kneele and receive those that Christ putteth backe at the command of a mortall man What a burthen are poore Ministers pressed with in that many hundreds of them depend upon one Bishop and his Officers they must hurry up to the spirituall Court upon every occasion there to stand with cap in h●nd not onely before a Bishop but before his Chancellour to bee railed on many times at his pleasure to be censured suspended deprived for not observing some of those canons which were of purpose framed for snares when far more ancient and honest canons are every day broken by these Iudges themselves for lucre sake as in the making of Vtopian Ministers who have no people to minister unto in their holding of commendams in their taking of money even to extortion for orders and institutions in their symony as well by giving as by taking and in all their idle covetous and ambitious pompe For all these and such like abuses we are beholding to the Lordlinesse of our Hierarchy which in the root of it is here overthrown by M. Bayne in the conclusions of the second and ●hird Question About which he hath the very same controversie that Marsilius Patavinus in part undertooke long since about the time of Edward the second against the Pope For he in his booke called Defensor pacis layeth the same grounds that here are maintained Some of his words though they be large I will here set downe for the Readers information Potestas clavium sive solvendi ligandi est essentialis inseparabilis Presbyterio in quantum Presbyter est In hac authoritate Episcopus à Sacerdote non differt teste Hieronymo imo verius Apostolo cujus etiam est aperta sententia Inquit enim Hieronymus super Mat. 16. Habent quidem eandem judiciariam potestatem alsi Apostoli habet omnes Ecclesia in Presbyteris Episcopis praeponens in hoc Presbyteros quoniam authoritas haec debetur Presbytero in quantum Presbyter primo secundum quod ipsum c. Many things are there discoursed to the same purpose dict 2. c. 15. It were too long to re●ite all Yet one thing is worthy to be observed how he interpreteth

this Church had the labour of all the Apostles for a time in it whose care and industry we may guesse by their ordination of D●acons that they might not be distracted Thirdly the confluence and concourse to H●erusalem was of much people who though explicately they did not beleeve in Christ yet had in them the faith of the Messiah and therefore were neerer to the kingdome of God then the common Heathen The state of this Church was such that it was to send out light to all other a common nursery to the world Finally the time being now the beginnings of planting that heavenly Kingdome seeing beginnings of things are difficult no wonder if the Lord did reveale his arme more extraordinarily It doth not therefore follow from this particular to the so great encreasing of these churches in tract of time Nay if these other Churches had enjoyed like increase in their beginnings it would not follow as thus Those Churches which within a few yeares had thus many in them how numbersome w●re they many yeares after Because the growing of things hath a Period set after which even those things which a great while encreased doe decrease and goe downward as it was in Jerusalem Not to mention that we deny the assumption But though the Argument is but Topicall and can but breed an opinion onely yet the testimonies seeme irrefragable Tertullian testifying that halfe the Citizens in Rome was Christians And Cornelius that there was besides himselfe and 45. Presbyters a number-some Clergie I answer That Tertullians speech seemeth to be somewhat Hyperbolicall for who can beleeve that more then halfe the Citie and world after a sort were Christians But he speaketh this and truely in some regard because they were so potent through the world that if ●hey would have made head they might have troubled happily their per●ecutors Or else ●he might s●y they were halfe of them Christians not because there were so many members of the Church ●ut because there were so many who did beare some favour to their cause and were it as safe as otherwise would not sticke to ●urne to them But Tertullian knew no Churches which did not meet having prayers exhortations and ministering all kindes of censures If therefore there were more Churches in Rome in his time it will make little for Diocesan Churches Touching Cornelius we answer It is not unlike but auditories were divided and tended by Presbyteries Cornelius keeping the Catherall Church and being sole Bishop of them but we deny that these made a Diocesan Church For first the Cathedrall and Parochiall Churches were all within the Citie in which regard he is said Officium Episcopi implevisse in civitate Romae Neither was his Church as ample as the Province which that of Foelicissimus sufficiently reacheth Secondly we say that these Parochiall churches were to t●e mother church as chappels of ease are to these churches in metrocomiis they had communion with the mo●her church going to the same for Sacraments and he●ring the Word and the Bishop did goe out to them and preach amongst them Porsome of them were not su●h as had liberty of Baptizing and therefore could not be severed from communion with the head Church Now to answer further it is beyond 200. yeares for which our defence is taken For there is reason why people which had beene held toge●her for 200. yeares as a Congregat●on might now fifty yeares after be exceedingly encreased The Ecclesiasticall story noteth a most remarkeable increase of the faith now in the time of Iulian before Cornelius Nei●her must we thinke that an Emperour as Philippus favouring the faith did not bring on multitudes to the like profession Secondly we● say there is nothing in this of Corn●lius which may not well stand that the Church of Rome though now much increased did not keepe together as one Church For the whole people are said to have prayed and communicated with the repentant Bishop who had ordeyned Novaetus and we see how Cornelius doth amplifie Novae●us his pertinacie From hence that none of the numerous Clergie nor yet of the people very great and innumerable could turne him or recall him which argueth that the Church was not so abo●ndant but that all the members of it had union and communion for the mutuall edifying and restoring one of another And I would faine know whether the seven Deacons seven Subdeacons two and forty Acolouthes whether those exorcistes L●ctors Porters about two and fifty are so many as might not be taken up in a Congregation of fifteene or twenty thousand Surely the time might well require them when many were to be sent forth to doe some part of ministery more privately Not to name the errour of the Church in superfluous multiplications of their Presbyters to vilifying of them as they were superfluous in the point of their Deacons There were six●y in the church of S●phia for the helpe of the Liturgie True it is the Congregation could not but be exceeding great and might well be called in a manner innumerable though it were but of a twenty thousand people But because of that which is reported touching division by Evaristus Hyginus Dionisius and Marcellinus though there is no authenticke authour for it neither is it likely in Hospinianus judgement Let it be yeelded that th●re were some Parochiall divisions they were not many and within the Citie and were but as Chappels of ease to the cathedrall or mother Church Concerning the objection from the Churches of Belgia or the low Countries we deny the proposition for we cannot reason thus If many Masters and distinct forme● of Schollers in one free● Schoole be but one Schoole then many Masters and company of Schollers severed in many Schooles are but one Schoole Secondly they have communion in the community of their Teachers though not in the same individuall word tended by them But it is one thing when sheepe feed together in one common Pasture though ●hey bite not on the same individuall grasse Another thing when now they are tended in diverse sheepe-gates Not to urge that in the Sacraments and Discipline they may communicate as one Congregation Touching the objection from Geneva I answer to the proposition by distinction Those who subject themselves to a Presbyterie as not having power of governing themselves within themselves as being under it by subordination these may in effect as well be subject to a Consistorie But thus the twenty foure Churches of Geneva doe not They or have power of governing themselves but for greater edification voluntarily confederate not to use nor exercise their power but with mutuall communication one asking the counsell and consent of the other in that common Presbytery Secondly it is one thing for Churches to subject themselves to a Bishop and Consistory wherein th●y shall have no power of suffrage Another thing to communicate with such a Presbytery wherin themselves are members and Judges with others Thirdly say they had no power nor were