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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41776	A dialogue between the Baptist and the Presbyterian Wherein the Presbyterians are punished by their own pens, for their cruel and soul-devouring doctrines, making God the ordainer of all the sins of men and devils: and reprobating the greatest part of mankind, without any help of salvation. Whereunto is annexed, a treatise of election, intituled, The order of causes: formerly published by an eminent servant of Christ, and now republished with some explication concerning free-will. By Thomas Grantham, messenger of the baptized churches in Lincolnshire.	Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692.	1691 (1691)	Wing G1530; ESTC R216815	20,667	29

Jona 3. 10. 2. Is it possible that you should call in question God's Seriousness with the Jews Psal 81 Are not these his words O that my People had hearkned unto me and Israel had walked in my Ways vers 13. See also vers 8. 9 10. and judg your self Surely if you or any Man else should speak thus to his Friends or Enemies either it would be great uncharitableness to think you were not serious and had an inward will for their happiness unless we knew you to be a Dissembler which temper cannot be found in God 3. That Christ was inwardly serious in his endeavours to gather Jerusalem appears by his Words and by his Tears which are such as may even break an Heart of Stone And sure I am God's Mind in sending Christ to them was to turn EVERY ONE OF THEM AWAY FROM THEIR INIQUITIES Act 3. ult 4. Now for the Pharisees they were part of the Jews to whom Christ was sent and in many things they were the best Sect of the Jewish People and God did by his Servant John seriously call them to Repentance yea his Counsel was of God Luk. 7. 29 30. Who never said to the House of Israel Seek ye me in vain And yet if he were not now serious but spake one thing and thought another yea determined and resolved another you will then make him say to them Seek ye me in vain But far be it from the Almighty that his Word should be Yea and Nay Sir It is because God is true that his Ministers may boldly assure poor Sinners that he wills not their Death but that they turn and live yea he hath sworn He hath no pleasure in the Death of the Wicked And hence I conclude against your dangerous Position that God is altogether serious even as Seriousness it self Tho. Grantham To this Letter the Doctor gave no Reply But a Friend of his sent me a small Paper of Verses as I suppose to pick some Quarrel with me about Free-Will And thus they speak IF Faith be not what can we then foresee Or how can we avoid it if it be If by Free-Will in our own Acts we move How are we bounded by Decrees above So whether we drive or whether we be driven If Ill it 's ours if Good the Act of Heaven To this captious piece of Poetry I made this short return OUR own Free-Will 'T is non-sense since 't is true Our own we are not Then our Will is due To him that made us and when we were lost Restor'd our Loss at his own proper Cost Free-Will's more talk'd of than well understood That Will 's not truly free that is not good God is no Author of the Will that 's Evil The Will that leads to Sin is of the Devil Decrees from Heaven restrain not farther Sin Much less does cause Sin For it did begin From Satan This God's Word does plainly shew Who charge't on Heaven's Decrees their Charge will rue Norwich whence came this Leaven into thee To fix thy Sin first upon God's Decree T. G. After this another nameless Poet assaults me but his Lines being so exceeding ridiculous it would but prophane the Muses to commit them to Posterity And because their chief Clamour was against my preaching that Christ died for all Men and for that cause calling me a false Teacher I resolved to try whether plain Scripture without my Commentary would pass for currant amongst our Reprobatarians wherefore I wrote as followeth To the Nameless and Nonsensical Poet. SIR YOur great Quarrel is because I teach this Doctrine That Christ died for all and not only for some Now thus saith the Lord We see Jesus made a little lower than the Angels for the suffering of Death that he by the Grace of God should taste Death Heb. 2. 9. for every Man He is a Propitiation for our Sins and not for ours only but 1 Joh. 2. 2. also for the Sins of the whole World He gave himself a Ransom for all 1 Tim. 2. 6. And if one died for all then were all dead And that he died 2 Cor. 5. 14 15. for all The Bread that I will give is my Flesh which I will give for the Joh. 6. 51. Life of the World God is the Saviour of all Men specially of them that believe 1 Tim. 4. 10. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour who will have All Men to be saved and come to the knowledg of 1 Tim. 2. 3 4. the Truth Not willing that any should perish but that All should come to 2 Pet. 3. 9. Repentance And he commandeth All Men every where to repent Act. 17. 30. As by the Offence of One judgment came on all Men even so Rom. 5. 18. by the Righteousness of One the free Gift came upon All Men to justification of Life For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive 1 Cor. 15. 22. They that have done Good to the Resurrection of Life and they that have done Evil to the Resurrection of Damnation Joh. 5. 29. Denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves 2 Pet. 2. 1. swift Destruction For God sent not his Son into the World to condemn the World John 3. 17 18. but that the World through him might be saved He that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God God will judg the Secrets of Men according to the Gospel Rom. 2. 16 Which hath been preached to every Creature under Heaven Col. 1. 23. He hath shewed thee O Man what is good Mich. 6. 8. The Lord is gracious and full of compassion flow to anger Ps 103. 8. and of great Mercy The Lord is good to all and his tender Mercies are over all his Ps 145. 9. Works By these Authorities I teach that Christ died for All. Now Sir shew me if you can where the Scripture tells us that Christ died BUT for some only and not for all For hitherto I have not met with any such Testimony in the Word of God And seeing you think Christ died but for some only shew me sufficient Testimony from the Scripture that he died for your self And name one if you can now living in this great City for whom Christ died not And when you have done these things well you may expect some further Account of your Paper Your abused Friend Tho. Grantham Finally To give you some Account of the Dialogue and Treatise ensuing For the first Being a great distance from my Study I could not have the help of my own Books The Collection therefore which I here give you I have taken from several Writers but chiefly from Mr. Tho. Pierce a Person of great Learning and Judgment 1. From his Correct Copy of Notes 2. His Divine Philanthropie

defended 3. His Divine Purity defended 4. The Self-Revenger exemplified in Mr. B. And 5. Self-Condemnation exemplified in Mr. W. and others Where the studious Reader may not only find those Quotations more fully set down and perhaps more exactly quoted but also very well maintained against his learned Adversaries who have laboured to excuse them and to palliate the Disease which they discover and therefore I have the more willingly made this present use of them I hope without his Offence For the Treatise you will therein find the Case of Election clearly handled and so familiarly demonstrated according to Scripture-Light that the meanest Capacity may arrive at competent Satisfaction and be delivered from the dismal Snares wherewith the World hath been encumbered by Mens presumptuous pretending to know a secret Will in God contrary to his revealed Will in his Word Which is a vile Absurdity and calls in question the Veracity of the Almighty with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning Your Servant for Jesus sake Tho. Grantham Norwich 12th Month vulg Feb. 1690. A Brief Dialogue wherein the Presbyterians are punished by their own Pens Baptist WEll met Sir I have somewhat to say unto you Presbyterian Pray say on I would know what is the matter Bapt. I was reading an Author the other day and he declares That the Doctrine of the Presbyterians is blasphemous against God and cruel to Mankind making God the Author of all Sin and the destroyer of Mankind in the greatest part without any Mercy or help for their Salvation Pr. This is an heavy Charge indeed but it is not true in this we do not make God the Author of Sin We do say indeed by our Confession of Faith made by the Assembly of Divines and approved by the General Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland That God did from all Eternity freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass Chap. 3. Bapt. But when you say that God did freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass do you mean that God ordain'd all the Sins of Angels and Men that they should come to pass of necessity or unavoidably Pr. Yes that is our very meaning for we tell you in the same Book Chap. 5. That the Almighty Power of God extends it self to the first Fall and all other Sins of Angels and Men and that not by a bare Permission c. Bapt. What do you mean by the Almighty Power of God extending it self to the first Fall and all other Sins of Angels and Men Pr. We mean and say in express words That by a necessity of divine Providence the Fall of Adam did necessarily happen that God made Adam and Eve to this very purpose that he might suffer them to be tempted and led into Sin and that by force of his Counsel or Decree it could not otherwise be but that they must sin Piscat Disp Pref. p. 6. Bapt. This seems very strange that God should lay Adam under a necessity of Sinning Pr. It could not otherwise happen than God had ordain'd and in respect of God's Decree there is no contingency or condition in the World And therefore Adam's change from Good to Evil was absolutely necessary to the execution of God's Decree Piscat Disp praedest Bapt. But do you not ground this Decree upon God's Foreknowledge rather than upon his Will Pr. God foresees nothing but what he hath decreed and his Decree doth precede or go before his Knowledge Adam necessarily fell in respect of God and it behoved him to Sin not by the idle permission of God separate from his Will and Decree Piscat Disp praedest Bapt. Can any satisfactory Reason be given for this Doctrine Pr. Man doth fall God's Providence so ordaining it And the first Man fell because the Lord thought it expedient why he thought it expedient we cannot tell Calvin Inst l 3. c. 23. sect 8. Bapt. By this Doctrine you make God the Author of Sin though you would deny it Pr. God doth holily drive or thrust Men on to Sin or Wickedness that he may punish Sins with Sins God is the Author of Sin one way and the Devil another yet we say God is the Author not of these Actions alone in and with which Sin is but of the very Pravity Ataxy Anome Irregularity and Sinfulness it self which is in them yea that God hath more hand in Mens Sinfulness than they themselves Comfort for Believ p. 36 37. Bapt. How it is possible that the Holy God should have any will to or hand in the Sins of Devils and Men Pr. Adultery or Murther is the Work of God the Author saith Zuingl de Prov. c. 6. God may seem not to be the cause of human Actions only but of the very Defects and Privations which cleave unto them Pet. Mart. in 1 Sam. c. 2. God procures Adultery Cursings Lyings Piscat Resp ad Apol. Britii p. 143. All wicked Men do all that they do by force of God's Will idem Resp ad Tauff p. 65. God efficaciously acteth or effecteth and by his efficacy performeth all things without any the least exception Beza cont Castel Aphoris 1 6 7. Bapt. These are very unsavory Speeches I ever thought and do yet believe that the Devil and wicked Men are the Authors of all Sin and that God only suffers Sin that is he doth not by violence always hinder them though he does often restrain them and graciously prohibits all Sin under pain of his displeasure Pr. The Devil and Wicked Men are so restrained on every side with the Hand of God as with a Bridle that they cannot conceive nor contrive nor execute any Mischief nor so much as endeavour its execution any further than God himself doth not permit only but command nor are they only held in Fetters but compelled also as with a Bridle to perform Obedience to such Commands Calvin Inst l. 1. c. 17. God exciteth Men to the act of Adultery that he stirreth them up to unjust Acts as a Man puts Spurs to a dull Jade Mr. Barlee cont Mr. T. P. Bapt. Certainly the Original of Sin is Satan's Malice and the Lusts of the Flesh and cannot be bottomed on God's Decree for he tempteth not any Man nor on his Commands for they prohibit all Sin Pr. God's Decree by which any is destin'd to Condemnation is not an Act of Justice nor doth his Decree presuppose Sin When God makes an Angel or a Man a Transgressor he himself doth not transgress because he doth not break a Law The same Sin viz. Adultery or Murther inasmuch as it is the Work of God the Author Mover and Compeller it is not a Crime but in asmuch as it is of Man it is Wickedness Dr. Twiss in Serm. de Prov. See Mr. Peirce Correct Cop. p. 10. Bapt. This is highly gross that you should charge God with making the Devils and Men Transgressors whereas God made Man upright but he hath sought out many Inventions Pr. God doth stir up the Devil to

lie and is in some manner the cause of Sin and thrusteth on the Wills of the Wicked to grievous Sins Pet. Vermil in Ep. ad Rom. p. 403 406. and 38. Yea God doth incite seduce draw command harden and inject Deceptions and effecteth those things which are grievous Sins Piscat ad Amic Dupl Vorstii p. 176. Bapt. By this Doctrine you make Man an insignificant Cypher and God the principal Actor in all Wickedness But seeing the Elect do sin as well as others Who is the Cause of their Sins Pr. Though Reprobates are predestinated to Damnation and to the Causes of Damnation and created to that end that they may live wickedly and be Vessels full of the Dregs of Sin yet it follows not that God's absolute Decree is the Cause of all the Villanies and Lewdnesses in the World because besides the Sins of the Reprobates there are also other Villanies committed namely by the Elect. Piscat cont Tauff p. 47. Bapt. But you do not answer the Question Whether did God decree that the Elect should sin Pr. Nothing is done without God's Will no not without his Operation for God worketh all things in all Men therefore he willeth and effecteth that ungodly Men do live in their Concupiscences Trigland Apol. p. 172. Bapt. But why do not you answer the Question directly Whether God decreed all the Villanies committed by the Elect Pr. God doth incite seduce draw and harden and inject Deceptions and doth or effecteth those things which are hainous and grievous Sins Mart. in Judg. 3. 9. P. 49. so of perishing by this Ordination of God and so compelled that they cannot chuse but sin and perish Zanch. de Nat. Dei l. 5. c. 2. Man doth that which is not lawful for him to do by the just impulse of God Calv. Inst l. 1. c. 18. Bapt. If things be thus as you teach Why does God call upon Men to abstain from every appearance of Evil and to do Good Pr. God directeth his Voice to some Men but that they may be so much the deafer he gives Light to some Men but that they may be so much the blinder he offers them Instruction but that they may be the more ignorant and he useth a Remedy but to the end they may not be healed Calv. lib. 3. c. 24. Bapt. Why does God speak one thing and mean another quite contrary thereunto How then is he serious Pr. God cannot seriously act and be finally opposed Dr. Collings ut supra God can will that Man shall not fall by his Will which is called voluntas signi his revealed Will and in the mean time ordain that the same Man shall infallibly and efficaciously fall by his Will which is called voluntas beneplaciti viz. his acceptable Will The former Will of God is improperly called his Will for it only signifies what Man ought to do by right but the latter Will is properly called a Will because by that he decreed what should inevitably come to pass See Mr. Pierce Correct Copy p. 9. Bapt. By your Doctrine I perceive you hold that the number of the Saved and the number of the Damned were unalterably determined before there was so much as one Man created Pr. Yes we say by the Decree of God for the manifestation of his Glory some Men and Angels are predestinated unto Everlasting Life and others fore-ordained to Everlasting Destruction and those Angels and Men thus predestinated and fore-ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed and their Number so certain and definite that it cannot be either encreased or diminished Assemb Catechis c. 3. sect 3 4. Bapt. Why then is the Gospel preached to Men thus determin'd to Damnation Pr. It must necessarily follow that Christ is preached to them to aggravate their Damnation Dantil cont Anonimum Bapt. You make the Case of the greatest part of Men grown deplorable without Remedy Pray What do you think of the Case of dying Infants Pr. Elect Infants dying in Infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit Assemb Catechis c. 10. sect 3. And of the rest Mr. Calvin saith That so many Nations of Men together with their Infants were involved without Remedy in Eternal Punishment by the Fall of Adam for no imaginable Reason but that so it seemed good in the sight of God Inst l. 3. c. 23. sect 7. Bapt. That God does cleanse dying Infants and fits them for Heaven I readily grant But what do you mean by regenerating Infants Pr. They must be regenerate and have Faith some way else they must perish They who are regenerated have Faith and Repentance But all Infants saved are regenerated Therefore all Infants saved have Faith and Repentance They must be born of Water and the Spirit according to John 3. 6. else there is no Heaven for them Mr. Firmin Bapt. What manner of Faith and Repentance is this you talk of Pr. It is Seminal Faith and Seminal Repentence Mr. Firmin Bapt. But you know not what kind of Faith this is nor can you tell what Infants have it and so you cannot tell that one Infant dying is saved by this Seminal Faith and Repentance or are you so charitable to think that all Infants have this Faith Seminal and this Seminal Repentance Pr. I aver how cruel soever I may be judged that no Unbeliever can according to any Divine Revelation have any assured hope of their own or their Childrens Salvation who die in their Infancy Mr. Whiston Right Method p. 46. Bapt. Lo how you would fill Hell with multitudes of poor dying Infants but how then has God said that he hath no pleasure in the Death of the wicked if it be as Mr. Calvin and you teach that both they and their Infants are damned without Remedy Pr. God wills not the death of a Sinner so far forth as he wills his Repentance which experience teacheth that he doth so will as not to touch his Heart that he may repent Calv. in Ezek. 18. The Sin of Incredulity doth depend upon God's Praedestination as the Effect upon the Cause Piscat ad Dupl Vorst p. 10 11. God doth effect in them an Incredulity in as much as he blindeth them whilst the Gospel is preached p. 25 27. All things which shall be shall be by the inevitable Counsels and Decrees of God Mart. Borrhaus in Deut. 47. p. 924. Bapt. You should have said that Men do harden their Hearts and resist the Holy Ghost but I am sorry that so many Learned Writers should represent God at such a dreadful rate not only to make Angels and Men to damn them but also to make them Sinners that he may damn them What is this but to make God the greatest Sinner which is blasphemous Pr. I have told you already That when God makes an Angel or a Man a Transgressor he himself doth not transgress because he doth not break a Law The very same Sin viz. Adultery or Murther inasmuch as it is the Work of God the Author Mover