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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	author_n	sin_n	will_n	1,685	5	6.8791	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15057	An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...; Ad Rationes decem Edmundi Campiani Jesuitæ responsio. English	Whitaker, William, 1548-1595.; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. Rationes decem. English.; Stock, Richard, 1569?-1626.; Whitaker, William, 1548-1595. Responsionis ad Decem illas rationes.; Durie, John, d. 1587. Confutatio responsionis Gulielmi Whitakeri ad Rationes decem. Selections.	1606 (1606)	STC 25360; ESTC S119870	383,859	364

do most truly deny this which they deny I will submit my selfe to any punishment But yet there is doubtlesse somewhat which these men say and which Campian doth attribute to them what that is let vs consider There was a certaine inueterate opinion among men that whatsoeuer sinne was committed by any all that was done God only permitting and not willing it now they did separate this permission vtterly from all will of God so as they affirmed that God did no way will those things which he had permitted But now seeing the Lord is to be held to d DVR Here you while you vvould defend that God is not the author of sinne yet do nothing else but make him the author of sinne for if he do not only permit but also willeth that man sinne tell me which way if the will of God be the first and effecting cause of sinne God is not the author of sinne WHIT. pag 535. There is no need that I should expound to you that which you demaund for we do not make the will of God to be the first and ●ffecting cause of the sin but of the action which as it commeth from a wicked man is vitious so then not the vvill of God but the naughtines of the instrument is the cause that those things are done vvic●edly which the Lord doth rightly permit those things which are done not only that they might bee done as if hee did no whit intermeddle himselfe in those things nor had nothing at all to do therein but also doth by his speciall prouidence so gouerne all things as that nothing in the whole world happeneth against tha● that he hath willed decreed certainly it cānot be denied that God doth will after a sort those things which the wicked doe that this wil of God is so effectual that in the wicked actions of men God doth execute his owne decree For in sinne two things are to be considered the action it selfe and the corruption of the action which thing your Aquine might teach you which also he learned from Augustine The action so farre forth as it is a thing and a worke is good for God effecteth it but so farre forth as this selfe same action is vitious it proceedeth not from God but from the corrupt nature of man Although therefore God who worketh all things in all and against whose will nothing can bee done doth bring to passe a certaine worke of his in the euill actions of men yet hee doth those things that are iust nor ought he any way to be thought to be guiltie of the sinnes of the men themselues therefore that which a wicked man doth that as it is a sinne and as it hath the proper nature of sinne the Lord neither willeth nor suggesteth nor biddeth nor effecteth nay he detesteth and reuengeth it and iudgeth it worthy of euerlasting punishment But that which is spoken of the thing that you applie malitiously and vnskilfully to the qualitie of the thing that you may conclude that God because he is the author and cause of the action is also the author and cause of whatsoeuer corruption is found in that action I will not prosecute any long digression nor ouerwhelme you with that multitude of Scr●ptures which I could here vse for I haue not taken vpon me to expound any poynt in the Schooles but briefely to confute your filthie slaunder Now answere me Campian doe you thinke that that which any one doth how wicked soeuer is done whether God will or no If you hold that any thing is done against Gods wil what prouidence or omnipotencie doe you leaue him For he which permits that to be done which he would by no meanes haue to be done it is certaine that he is not endued with so great power as that he can forbid that which he would not haue done Wherefore you must need● confesse that all things which are done are done by the will of God not that God doth will that is e DVR You say that God willeth euill but that he doth not allow it as if God could will that vvhich he doth not allovv or as if he could not allovv his ovvne iudgement and decree WHIT. pag. 538. It is no hard thing to proue this that God doth vvill many things vvhich he doth not allovv for if is do happen to Princes that they doe not simplie allovv of vvarre as being dangerous to them and their subiects but they vvould vvillingly shun it it they could and yet they are compelled sometime to vvill it for the publike peace sake and so to a Magistrate vvho spareth the liues of his people and neuer liketh of murther yet novv and then doth vvillinglie deliuer some one or other malefactor vnto the executioner shall vve thinke that the like cannot happen vnto God that hee vvilleth some thing in some sort and for some other respect vvhich hee doth not allovv simplie and of it selfe Thus then God cannot but allovv the action vvhich he hath destinated to a certaine end but he doth not allovv the corruption and sinne of the action vvhereof not he but man is the author allow the sinnes of men but because by this means he doth exercise his iudgement and execute his decree which he both willeth and alloweth God can vse euill instruments well and bring to passe by wicked men those things which agree with his will and liking Now whatsoeuer things God doth by euill instruments those he neither doth nor alloweth as they be euill things but as they be his good and holy iudgements so as although he both willeth those things which be done doth moue the wils of men and doth exercise in euill instruments though vnknowne to the instruments themselues an effectuall power and doth gouerne the wicked counsailes of impious men that they can doe nothing which hee willeth not yet both men are wicked albeit they doe those things which the Lord willeth and the Lord is holy howsoeuer he willeth those things which the wicked doe This may be made manifest by examples but I had rather you should heare Augustine than me When the Father saith he deliuered the sonne August Epist. 48. ad Vincent and the Lord his body and Iudas the Lord by treacherie why is God iust in this deliuerie and man guiltie but because in one thing which they did the cause was not one for which they did it Againe In that the wicked sinne it is their owne in that in sinning they doe this or that it comes from the power of God who diuides the darkenes as he seeth good And in another place It skilleth much saith he what will agreeth to man and what to God and to what end each one referreth his will so as it may be allowed or disallowed For God fulfilleth certaine of his wils being surely good by the euill wils of euill men as by the ill willed Iewes through the good will of the father Christ was slain which was so

any do denie to be good and holy he may well be held blasphemous against the holy Ghost As for that you both faine that we speake these things and also expresse for what cause wee speake them you bewray your wonderfull wisedome which for those things that are not at all can set downe a reason wherefore they be But we doe willingly preach faith and doe easily permit it to bee contemned of you For you that defend nature against grace and doe trust rather to your owne power than to Christs mercie and doe make voide the promises by precepts cannot haue an honourable opinion of faith You neuer keepe your standing Of Sinne. Campian and you begin the battaile like a runnaway For you haue a wandring and vnstable wit as it seemeth You oppose Illyricus to vs againe in the same cause whose testimonie ought not to be of force against vs. For herein I professe my selfe no lesse an aduersarie to him than your selfe I had almost said than to your selfe For what an vniust and vnreasonable thing is it that you should taxe that opinion as defended by vs which your selfe knoweth to be condemned by our Churches Obiect our owne opinion to vs Campian if you can obiect any wee are not such as that we should thinke whatsoeuer Illyricus could as being a man erre in did any whit concerno vs. But either Illyricus must needes be drawne into this taxation or else this place was quite to be left voide by you For beside Illyricus I thinke you haue no man that thinkes so If you desire to know our opinion of this matter I confesse indeed that that defence of Illyricus did seeme euer very absurd to me For it both smels of the follie of the Manichies and it maketh two soules in a regenerate man and which is a greater matter it destroyes the soule That was alwaies the iudgemēt of the Catholike Church which I professe to be ours that the substance of the soule was not quite slaine by sinne but onely charged and infected with vitious qualities and that sinne is no inward substance of the soule but an r DVR The Catholike Church neuer beleeued that sinne was an accident or qualitie but only a priuation for if it were an accident God should be the cause and author of it WHIT. pag. 573. But this priuation is it not an accidentall thing vvhy then make you a scruple in vvords vvhen you vnderstand the sense An accident is commonly called that vvhich is in some substance but is no part of it vvhich may either be absent or present without the corruption of the subiect and such a thing euery man knovveth sinne is And though I confesse that the nature of sinne consisteth in a priuation yet it is not a bare priuation as you may learne ou● of your Thomas For. 1.2 quaest 82. art 1. he saith sinne is not a meere priuation but a corrupt habit like vnto a disease vvhereby not only health is taken avvay but bad humours are brought vpon the bodie And the Schoole men vvhen they make priuation of originall iustice to be the forme of originall sinne and the matter to be concupiscence or a corrupt inclination of the faculties of the soule vvhat doe they teach but that in sinne there is some positiue thing as Thomas vseth to call it But vvhy do I endeuour to refell you for vvhom Physike is fitter then a refuration As for your reason it hath no force for God is not to be accounted the author of all accidencies but indirectly and by accident Basil saith That the roote and cause of sinne is in our selues euen our freewill accident ſ DVR Basil saith not that sin is an accident or a quality but an affection cōtrary to vertue WHIT. pag. 575. Then must it be somevvhat for nothing cannot be contrarie to vertue Basill writeth truly in that hee denieth that sinne is any liuing substance or indued with a soule Basil i●ub●●p hons 2. August de nuptijs lib. 1. cap. 25. but a qualitie contrarie to the vertue of the soule Augustine t DVR Augustine vvill accuse you for slandering him because he spake not of sin but of concupiscence vvhich he accounted to be no sinne WHIT. pag. 576. Doth Augustine account concupiscence no sinne vvhy then calleth he it an affection of an euill quality vvhy doth he compare it to a disease vvhy doth he demaund the question hovv concupiscence should remaine in the regenerate vvhose sinnes are all remitted if it vvere not a sinne his ansvvere proueth it yet more fully For he saith concupiscence is remitted in Baptisme not that it should be no sinne at all as you vvould haue it but that it should not be imputed for a sinne If it vvere no sinne hovv could it be imputed for a sinne Finally August cont ●ulian lib. 5 cap. 3. affirmeth that it is a sinne and a punishment of sin and a cause of sinne and that in the regenerate It is manifest in the place that he speaketh of that concupiscence against vvhich the spirit lusteth and vvhich in vvithout the consent of the vvill It at any time he denie it to be a sinne it i● not simplie but in opposition to actuall sinne for hovv should that be nothing vvhich is remitted in Baptisme vvhich Christ satisfied for by his blood or is God angry vvith vs for nothing It must therfore needs be sin Originall sinne saith he remaineth not substantially as it were some bodie or spirit but it is a certaine affection of an euill qualitie like a disease Finally Ambrose most plainly Ambros in Rom. 6. c. 7. u DVR Ambrose his vvords refell your error WHIT. pag. 577. Nay they refell your error For hee saith it is a straying from good Novv this straying is an action and not a meere priuation And you your selues earnestly defend that sin is an action If it be an action then an accident then no meere priuation thē not nothing How dwelleth sin in the flesh seeing it is no substance but a straying from good Therfore let vs if you please send away the suspition of this error imposed by you vpon vs to the author himselfe As for that you adde that it is a thing commonly held by this filthie sect that all sinnes be equall verily nothing could be spoken more impudently Pardon me Campian if I answere you somewhat sharpely for your vnmodest and intolerable impudencie wrung that terme from me Are you so far spent that you are not able to charge vs with any true crime but shamelessely to obiect those things against vs from which we of all others are farthest off For who did euer more vehemently disallow or more strongly confute this paradoxe of the Stoiks than our Diuines whom you now pursue All records of these times may be witnesses hereof our bookes Churches and Schooles be witnesses as also both the ciuill and Church Discipline may be a witnesse Did you thinke that you could creepe

did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature and your Popish crevv defendeth the same who seeth not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot Romish Church seek for the auncient Church of Rome you shall neuer find it for shee hath now lost not the life only but the very colour and appearance of the true Church Seeing therefore all other things faile you and also Histories themselues on which you seemed much to relie helpe you nothing what remaineth but one of these two either must you yeeld before the battaile or die in the battaile I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth We haue learned it to bee commendable aswell to yeeld vnto reason as with reason to ouercome EDMVND CAMPIAN The eighth Reason which is the Paradoxes of our aduersaries WHen that most excellent men I reuolue in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I haue to doe certaine mōstrous opinions of such as are fantasticallie giuen I could not but condemne my self of slouthfulnes and cowardlines if making triall thereof I should bee afraid of any mans actiuitie and strength let him be as eloquent as yee would wish let him be as much exercised as you would desire yea let him be one that hath throughly studied all sorts of books yet must he needs be to seeke both for matter and words also when he shall vndertake to maintaine those his vnpossible propositions as follow for if he perhaps will giue his consent we will dispute of God of Christ of Man of sinne of Iustice of Sacraments and of Manners I will trie whether they dare maintaine their opinions such sayings as they lingring after their owne lure haue bruted abroad by their writings God graunt they will acknowledge these their owne a De Deo Cal. Inst lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct in cap. Rom. 8. VVittem 1524. Sic docet Luther in asser 36. in resol asser 36. in lib. de ser arbit Praesat in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre an 1543 axiomes * This is most false not any one of our men haue affirmed that God is the author of sinne God is the author and cause of sinne willing prompting making commaunding and working it and their gouerning the wicked counsels of naughty men * This is false we do not so compare togither The adultery of Dauid and the treason of the Traitor Iudas was as properly the worke of God as the calling of S. Paul was This monstrous doctrine whereof Philip Melancthon was once ashamed yet Martin Luther from whose brest Philip suckt the same as highly extolleth as though it had been some heauenly oracle and therefore matcheth his said scholler in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul I will demaund also what mind Luther was of whom the English Caluinists affirme to haue been a man sent from God to lighten the Word when hee razed out of the Letany vsed in the Church this verse O blessed Trinitie and one God haue mercy vpon vs then in order I will proceed to the person of o De Christ Inst lib. 1. c. 13. nu 23. 24. Beza in Hess Beza contra Schmidel lib. de vnit Hypost dua in Christ. nat Christ demaund of them what these Paradoxes meane whereas the Catholike Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God and God of God * Christ is Son of the Father but God of himselfe Caluin saith that Christ is God of himselfe and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father also be it agreed saith he that there are in Christ two vnions consisting in one substance the one of the soule with the flesh and the other of the Diuinity with the humanity That place of S. c Caluin in Ioh. 10. v. 30 Iohn I and the Father are one doth not proue that Christ is God of one substance with God the Father yea and my soule * This is false reade the answere saith d Luther cont Laton Luther cannot brooke this word Homouotin Proceed yee forward e Bucer in Lu. 2. Calu. in ●ar Eu. Christ from his infancie was not full of grace but daily encreased in gifts of the mind as other men vsually doe and waxed wiser through experience euery daie more then other so that in his childhood he was subiect to f Luth. Loss Hem. Mela. in Euang. de 1. post Epist Marl. in Matt. 26. Cal. in Har. Euan Brentius in Luc. par 2. Hom. 65. in Catech. an 1551. in Ioh. Hom. 54. ignorance which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted with the spot and staine of * This is false for all ignorance riseth not from originall corruption originall sinne But listen and you shall know more pernitious doctrine then this Christ when he praied in the garden and plentifully sweat both water and blood trembled through feare and sensiblie feeling of eternall damnation vttered certaine speeches without reason and without consent of the inward spirit yea speeches without consideration through the vehemencie of his griefe the which speeches as vnaduisedly spoken he quickly corrected Is there any more such stuff giue diligēt eare Christ whē he cried out with a loud voice hanging on the Crosse My God my God why hast thou forsaken me was tormented with the flames of hell fire he let ouer-slip * This is false neither Birutius nor any of our men euer said so him g Caluin in Har. Euang. in eand sent Loss in Matth. 26. desperate speeches being no otherwise affectioned then if he should haue died an eternall death if they haue any worse stuffe then this let them emptie their gorge Christ they saie descended into hell that is Christ after he was dead tasted of the paines of hell nowhit h Schmidel conci de Pass c●●ua Dom. Aepinus Com. in Psal 16. lesse then the damned soules doe sauing that he was to be restored againe for as much as by his corporall death he could haue profited vs nothing it was therefore requisit that his i Caluin Instit lib. 2. cap. 16. Bren. in Catechis 1551. soule also should striue with eternall death and in this manner to tolerate the paine and paye the ransome of our sins And lest peraduenture any man should suspect that this escaped Caluin by ouersight the said k Instit lib. 2 cap. 16. nu 12. Caluin calleth you all forlorne knaues if any of you haue debated vpon this * They who deny this doctrine to be full of comfort may worthily be accounted desperate men comfortable doctrine oh cursed times oh cursed daies what miserable doctrine haue you bred vp Hath that precious and princely blood which gushed out of the torne pierced side of that most innocent Lambe Christ Iesus euery little drop of which blood for the worthines

impossibilities that al men may perceiue they were ascribed to vs by you most falsly and most impudently I do craue not only of all men of our Vniuersities but also of all Christiās that haue care of true religion and of their owne saluation that they will not suffer themselues to be misled by any lies and impostures of the aduersarie from that holy doctrine which they haue learned Wherefore I will set vpon these your monsters Campian that after I haue stopt your mouth being ful of blasphemy both the glory of God which is in hand and our innocency which is oppugned may be preserued from your violence You say the disputation shall be if they please of God of Christ of Man of Sinne of Righteousnes of the Sacraments of Manners But we are readie to dispute with you not only about these but also about other points which are now in difference of the Scripture of the Church of the Bishop of Rome of Transubstantiation of Freewill of Indulgences of Purgatorie and of the rest of your doctrines Neuerthelesse either many are deceiued or else you do rather thinke of fighting then disputing And I hope that you shall once haue freedome granted you for that disputation which you so often desire But now let vs attend how you endeuour to make vs know these positions of our men God say you is the willing Of God suggesting efficient commaunding and working author and cause of sinne and such a one as therein gouerneth the impious counsels of the wicked It is an horrible thing and not to be vttred Campian that any one should make God the author of sinne such an one were worthy to be smitten instantly by the Lord with a thunderbolt into the deepest pit of hell If a DVR But if I do not shew that Caluin is the maintainer of this so horrible ablasphemy I refuse no punishment for so great a slāder thus he writeth Instit lib. 1. cap. 18. sect 1. Absolom defiling his fathers bed with incest committed a detestable crime yet God pronounceth that this was his worke WHIT pag. 525. I wonder that there is any mā found like to Campian who will ●uow that to be said and defended by our men which they haue euer most plainly condemned as Melanct. on Rom. 1. c. Pet. Mart on Iudg 9. and Caluin on Iam. 1. vers 13. Beza against Castellio of eternall predestination for touching these words which you obiect to Caluin what doth he affirme but that which the Scripture hath deliuered 2. Sam 12.11.12 vnlesse perhap● you will deny that to be Gods deed which God himselfe witnesseth to be his Neither will your sophisme follow hereupon ergo God is the author of sin for Caluin ascribeth not the sinne but the worke to God For if in that incest you can consider nothing but sinne it must bee imputed to your ignorance Caluin or Martyr or Philip or Luther or any of vs do affirme it I do not denie but we are all guilty of horrible blasphemie and impiety If I would largely prosecute this whole cause which you doe but touch I should make no end therfore I will declare in few words both what we teach and wherein you lie We professe not only that God is good but also goodnes it self yea good in himself in his owne essēce in whom there is no euill from whom nothing but good can come who is so good that all his doings be very good and that not so much as any of his thoughts can be euil These things we speake these things we teach these things we beleeue with our harts and confesse with our mouthes Seeing therefore God is so perfectly good that all his things be in a certaine excellent manner good it hath been in times past inquired and most grauely disputed whēce that euil sprung which had spread so far what might be the cause of this euill This question Augustine often handled because of the M●nichies In 12. quest 79. art 1. 2. and therein also Thomas of Aquine imployed himselfe much and diligently Wee say that this euill was brought in by the b DVR But Caluin saith that when the Diuel moueth men to sinne hee is rather the instrument of God than th● author o● sinne Instit lib. 2. cap. 4. Ser. 5. WHIT pag. 528. This allegation is full of slander This is Caluins meaning that albeit the Diuell be rather an instrument than the author of the action yet hee is the supreme and chiefe of the sinne in the action Diuell who although hee were made good in the beginning by the Lord yet by his freewill he made defection from the Lord and sinned ●nd did perswade and was the author vnto man to commit sin from hence whatsoeuer is sin either in the diuels or in men did wholy flow and not any the least peece of it had being from God whom we do maintaine by infinite testimonies of Scripture to be the author of no c DVR But what is more often in the mouth of Caluin all Caluinists ●hen this that God doth not only permit but will sinne that he doth moue and thrust vs forward to sinne nay that be doth by the efficacie of his will impose a necessity of sinning vpon vs WHIT. pag. 529. God willeth sinne but not simplie and so farre forth as it is sinne but as it is a chastisement so 1. Pet. 4.19 and God doth stirre vp and moue that sinne which lieth hidde in vs yet he doth not frame or put sinne into vs as the Physitian is not the author of d●seases when he purgeth out the most corrupt humours And man not indued with the holy Ghost falleth of his ovvne accord into a necessity of sinning so as he sinneth not by any fault of God but by his ovvne fault sinne and so do teach it in our schooles and Churches Psal 44. Zach. 8.17 Gen. 18.25 1. Ioh. 1.5 For he hateth sin he loueth righteousnes he which is the Iudge of the whole earth it must needs be that he is euery way most iust God is light and there is no darknes in him And these are the things which wee teach the people concerning God that all may vnderstand hee is a most seuere reuenger of all sinnes Now then Campian with what face dare you seeing you know these to bee our doctrines impute vnto vs such a slāder not to be vttred in so much as you affirme that we speake and thinke things flat contrary But you say Caluin and Martyr haue taught this this thing Nay rather they are wholy bent vpō this that they maintaine that can by no meanes bee It would be long to set down their words I do beseech the Reader to reade with an attentiue and peaceable mind these same very places which Campian hath abused vnto slander And if they doe not both deny most plainly that God is the author and cause of sin and also if they do not proue that they

would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did