rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyoÌ„ therin write euery lewde worde that any lewde folke or any false shrewes wolde tell hym Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease but yf to please theÌ„ they sholde dysplease god and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll ¶ And now to th entent good reders that you may the more clerely se to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to answere well here were these fo 257. But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer of arrestynge them and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst heretykes and processe of excommunicacyon but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye as though he hadde well proued that they haue so bycause he sayeth that some men say so But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe than is hys tale lost For than he sheweth no cause why that power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspeÌ„ded now than in any time here before And on the tother syde yf some say be a good profe than the â—uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth ¶ Lo good readers here you se that vnto the secunde parte of these wordes of myne he answereth nothynge at all And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste hys answere is so feble that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother leue it vnanswered to ¶ But nowe goeth he ferther and saith Then sayth mayster More yet ferther that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy and whyche wytnes be suffycyent and whych not must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy to folowe the arrest of the party or the leuynge of the arrest Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that mayâ—â—er More maketh a ryght good mocyon that is to saye that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste that in suche caâ—e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte to treate ferther of it and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd .xlvi. chapyter ¶ Now good readers this man maketh here as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes some greate aduauntage to grouÌ„de some great mater vppon And therfore I shall reherse you what my wordê were that your selfe maye se how sore I ouersaw my selfe therin and what he meneth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo 257. yet is he content at the laste leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse that tyll the spyrytualty haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiurynge and punysshynge folke for heresye they sholde not be suffred to arreste folke for euery light suspycyon or euery complaynt of heresye How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresye and suffycyeÌ„t recorde and wytnes agaynst hym bysydes all that a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other than he grauÌ„teth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest folâ—e for suspycyon of heresye and wold as farre as I perceyue haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyoÌ„ and whych is an heuy and whych is a lyght coÌ„playnt and whych is an heuy and whych is an open suspycyon and whyche but a preuy and whyche suspycyon ys notable and whyche is not notable and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent and which be not suffycyent be thynges that must be wayed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr wayâ—nge of the mater for lyght or heuy muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne that be the mater greate or smale lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be susspended fro them and sende them to sue by cytacyon tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet and make a lye agayne of theym than as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr IohnÌ„ some say now And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse hereâ—tykes maye go vnarrested I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter the tother before also he calleth vpoÌ„ the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle and hys parleament to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte ¶ Here you se good readers bycause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase out of whyche he can not se how to gete he wold now set other folke to study there about And wolde make theym very carefull aboute a thynge lytle nedefull For it hath well appered well ben proued to that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy ryght well examyned and considered fyrst bothe the cause and the necessyte haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow than any tyme ouer hasty And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in executyng of the lawes euyn those y t are all redy made agaynst heresyes coÌ„maunde euery teÌ„porall officer vnder hym to do y e same for his part though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse
tyme with this good man entre in this mater in to seryouse ernest argumentes But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore that though I be of hys mynde therin yet I dare not aduise them there to The cause is that I se them haue so greate desyre feruent concupyscence towarde it that I am aferde to counsayle theym folowe it bycause of the scrypture that sayth Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas After thy concupyscences goo thou not ¶ I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way but y t they maye be wryten without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough ¶ And also concernynge this word proude worldely countenauÌ„ce wherof we speke here vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye whych begynneth in the lefe .174 The .xi. chapyter HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi lefe wherin fyrst he sheweth y t I reherse ryght and constre amysse thys worde of his And therfore ¶ You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apologye of whyche to tone begyyneth fo 183 the tother begynneth fo 184. ¶ Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke whyche here also he well trewly reherseth do not importe that hym selfe sayeth y e thyng whych I by those wordes and amoÌ„g other by thys worde therfore afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne that he sayeth yt but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge and not as of hys owne sayenge ¶ Surely neyther nowe nor in any place of myne apologye I neyther haue done nor intende to charge thys man that his mynde purpose was suche in his intent as the great lykelyhed of his wordes wold geue men occasyon to thynke But vn the tother syde that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent to saye as I there haue sayde who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye shal by the whole cyrcumstauÌ„ce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue And you shall ouer that yf after those two chapyters redde you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his for surely I thynke yt was none other he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth For in the ende of the .xxvi. lefe so thus he handeleth wylyly the mater And in that he sayth that I saye playnely those wordeâ— my seflfe he sayth playnely agaynste the â—etter of the sayde treatyse whyche ye that they haue punished many persoÌ„â— which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll and not that I sayd so my selfe ¶ Now good readers in this rehersall of hys own worde he reherseth his own wordes wrong For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole context before For his wordis were not that they haue punished many persons whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore that is to wyt for the same cause and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to hath vsed the same word therfore in y e same fasshyon before and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause hath here in his laste clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges bothe that they therfore that is to say for y e same cause next before spokeÌ„ of the cause y t him self ther imagineth haue punished many and also that as he sayth yt so myche people iudged the same ¶ And this shall you the more clerely marke yf you tourne these wordes And therfore they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. in to these wordê wherof the sentence is allone And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. ¶ And therfore that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you that is to wyt that you shold not perceyue thys poynte this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde bryngynge the thynge to the tryall lefte his therfore oute But reade my sayd two chapyters than as for the sentence of his open wordes I trust you shall byleue me As for the secrete meanyng of his mynde I pray you byleue hym For so that you byleue not the shrewd wordes of hys boke I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe ¶ Now where he saith in y e .xxxvii. lefe that he thynketh I chaunge his mater bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported that myche people take yt so veryly I chaunge not his mater But trouth yt is y t I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about For trewly y e report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew ¶ And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe I shall fynde that myche people take yt so that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so For as for me though I go not aboute to serche that poynte of purpose yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle yet I thaÌ„ke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so And yf there were myche people that so dyd yt were they re owne faute wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym but onely praye god to mende theym And as for me yf there were myche people that so toke yt as I truste in god veryly there is not I wolde as my dutye were be surely very sorye for theym but in thys cause of trouth trewely I wolde not flater theym For though that sorte of people were neuer so myche in dede yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere agaynste theym that yf they re myndes were suche yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt and also great synne to thynke yt ¶ And surely that they re sayenge ys false and noughte in hys owne secrete iudgement you maye se good reders by this y t he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne And therfore whyle hym selfe thought they re sayeng so false he sholde
nothynge ellys but onely Bizances wrytynge and els wold also Salem haue thought that his owne wordes of exhortacy oÌ„ agaynst the great turke and his own rehersynge of that exposycyon of the apocalyps had bene styll the pacyfyers wordê agaynst myne apology ¶ And finally in the very ende to shew that he could write not in onely prose he endeth all the whole booke in this wyse with a gloryouse ryme And thus the gloryonse trynite haue in his kepyng bothe the and me and maketh Bizance praye for no mo but for theym two after the maner of the good manne â—ryme a mustarde maker in Cambrydge y t was wont to pray for hym self and his wyfe his chyld grace to make good mustarde no more ¶ And thus you se good readers y t where this man is so cuÌ„ning in greke wordê y t he can shortely fynd y e fawt where I fayle in y e nature of an apologye hym selfe in his own dyaloge so well coÌ„serueth the propertye of a dialoge expresseth it so naturally y t it could neuer be done more naturally not though he that wrote it were euyn a very naturall in dede ¶ But where he semeth to haue meruayled whan he redde myne apology that I wolde make obieccyons agaynst his wurke whyle he neuer wrote any thynge agaynste no booke of myne in good fayth yf he had I wolde neuer haue bene the more hasty but somwhat peraduenture y e lesse leste it myghte haue semed that some desyre of reuengynge myne owne dyspleasure had excyted me therto where as nowe no worldely profyte growynge to me thereby there is mych lesse cause for any good man to thynke that I wolde take the labour to wryte agaynst a wurke I wyst not whose but yf that it had at the leste wyse semed to my selfe that there were suche thynges therin as god wold geue me thaÌ„ke to geue meÌ„ warnynge to be well ware of them ¶ And where he sayeth he wyll not touch euery thyng partycularly but take an other order all out of order in answerynge therunto I can not let him iÌ„ his own boke to vse what order that beste maye serue his purpose But me thought and yet thynke that I my selfe toke a very playne open way whan the chapyters of his whiche I wold answere to I perused al waye euery thynge in order Whiche order while he foloweth not with me how you shall fynd it your self shall good reders iudge vpon y e ende But yet in the meane whyle at the fyrste face it semeth not that wyth lepynge out of order he meaneth to make you the mater very playne ¶ Nor all he sayth he wyll not answere neyther for auoydynge of tedyousnes And of trouth yf he haue as he semeth to signyfye any other bysynesse I thynke it be somwhat tedyouse to hym to answere all to gether ¶ Finally where he saith that he supposeth to make it appere as by hys answeres and by his consideracyons and his declaracyons that myne obieccyons are lytell to be pondered fyrste for his argumentes made agaynste the lawes wherby the fayth is preserued and heresyes kept vnder those argumentes all his answeres wyll neuer be able to mayntayne And as to y e remanaunt in good faith the better that he maye make you his innocent mynde appere the gladder a greate deale wyll I be therof nor nothynge purpose I therin by thys present booke to do ferther than to make you clerely perceyue that how well so euer hym selfe here declare hys good menyng my selfe was not causeles there moued to fynd fawte in his wrytynge The .ii. chapyter IN the .ii. chapyter begynnynge in the fyfth lefe he bryngeth forth y e fyrste consyderacyoÌ„ whiche is that I in the 89. lefe of myne apology confesse that murmur and discensyon agaynst the clergye was thaÌ„ all redy farre gone onwarde in hys vnhappy iourney that afterwarde in the .106 lefe of the same boke I bryng in a very darke senteÌ„ce wherby it appereth that I mene that the dyspleasure grudge bytwene them is in dede neyther so greate as he maketh it and yet growen to so greate as it is but euyn now of late But who so loke there in that place shall I suppose fynde it nothynge darke but yf it be suche a man as lyste not to vnderstande it ¶ And where I saye there that this dyuysion such as it is whyche is no thynge such as this man maketh it is not growen to so greate as it is but synnys that Tyndalys bookes and Frythys and frere Barons bygan to go abrode therin he wold seme to saye the contrary byddeth me loke better vppon the mater and I shall fynde it otherwyse And in dede with better lokyng theron I fynd it somwhat otherwyse For I fynde y e tyme of such encreace as I speke of mych shorter than I there assygne that by a greate deale For it was groweÌ„ the greater by thoccasyon of the selfe same boke of the diuysyon though y â— maker as hym selfe sayth and as I truste to intended it not of purpose And therfore where he saith that sith I confesse that there was diuysyon at the tyme of the makynge of myne apologye it appereth that I haue no mynde to haue it ceaced bycause that I seke not out the causes and deuise the remedyes veryly good readers I neuer toke accoÌ„pted my self for a man mete able to make a reformacyon of such two great partes as the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye of this whole realme be And veryly yf I knewe some suche great causes as thys man setteth forth for trewe whych I knowe for false and that I than knewe the wayes to reforme them to I wolde vse other wayes towarde it than sedycyouse slaunderouse bookes For as I haue expressely declared in myne apologye neyther neuer dyd I nor neuer entende to do put out abrode in prente vnder colour of reformacyon fawtes that were hatefull and odyouse to here eyther of the tone parte or of the tother and specyally so many at onys as yf they were all trewe were not all lykely to be remedyed at ones but the more parte for the whyle remaynynge lytell remedyed sholdâ— but make eyther parte to the other more odyouse and bothe partes more infamouse amonge suche other yf any suche any where be as wold be gladde and reioyce to here mych euyl spoken of them bothe ¶ And thys I saye all though that all were trewe And now wolde I mych lesse vse that maner in makyng rehersall of those thynges wherof many be false and vntrew and many other also very tryfeles the very chyefe thynges that thys pacyfyer desyreth to haue reformed be lawes all redy well made whyche he wold haue made wurse For where they haue ben by wyse men well deuysed for the repressyng of heresyes some by perleament in thys realme some by the generall counsayle of chrystendome those deuyseth he so to be chaunged now as the chaunge whyche he desyreth
tale as of his own ê‘fyt knowlege I wold so litle doute yt to be trew y t I could beleue yt no better though all the town told yt with hym Lo what a great vntrouth I lay here to the iuryes ¶ And this I say for my selfe And now wyll I with this good mannys leue saye yet a lytle farther and I wene I shaâ—l not say so alone I suppose veryly that there be very few but so that it myghte make a fynall ende in theyr mater excepte happely some such as trust more in the fauour of the countrey then in the trouthe of theyr cause they wold rather be content to put yt whole into the iudges handes then trouble the countrey wyth callynge vppe of the iuryes whose trouth yet many tymes deceyueth them that in an euyl cause haue very great truste vnto theym ¶ And yet in all this saye not I that the commen order and longe conâ—ytynued law of this realme to trye the maters by iuryes in felony or treason neuer to ê“cede but vpon endyghtementes is not good nor that the coÌ„trarye waye were better Mary two thynges I saye that in treason and felonye this ordynarye lawe of endyghtemeÌ„tes is many tymes fayn to be holpen forth by a nother meane myche lyke in many thynges to the suyte ex officio and that ys by dylygent polytyque serche and examynacyons bysyde both by the kynges honorable couÌ„sayle the iuges iustyces of peace euery man for theyr ê‘te in euery ê‘te of the realm els wold there many such mischiefê passe by by indightemâ—t neuer wold be fouÌ„deÌ„ And some great and clerely proued felonyes byfore dyuerse and ryghte worshypfull of the kinges counsayl haue I wyste ere thys that neuer coulde be goten to be founden by endyghtement in they re countreys for all that How be yt suche examynacyons hathe caused yet many myscheuouse people to be brought to they re punyshement and haue put also many suche other vnthryftes in fere made them refrayn fro theuyng and drawe them selfe to thryfte or elies not wytstandynge that there are yet theuys ynough there wold be wythout doute many mo ¶ The tother thynge that I wyll say is this that all these dyfferences dyuersyties that this good man putteth here betwene indyghtementes the suyte ex officio proueth nothing that the suyte ex officio is not good but onely at the very vttermost that the ordre not to procede wythoute an open presentement were better For 〈◊〉 sayd before though this lawe by endyghtemeÌ„tê be better in felony now yet were not the tother waye nought yf the lawe were so that the iudges myght procede and put feloÌ„s to answere without endyghtementê as in treason is vsed in thys realme by the lawe marshall vppon warre rered as we sawe by experyence in captayne Quintyn captayn Genyn Corbet and â—elke And yet is that lawe not euyll thoughe that oure owne comen law be better and that though we truste the iuryes neuer so well yet myght we truste the iudges as well And this maye I saye me thynketh without any dysprayse or fawte fyndynge in the iuryes at all For let him assygne me two iuryes of very well knowen good men than yf he wyll aske me what fawte fynd you syr in these men I wyll answer hym Mary syr no fawte at all I. I take them all for good men trewe and thynke they wyll not saye but treuth nor I neuer sayd nor thought other wyse But thaÌ„ wold I assygne hym by name one of oure iudges agayne and say now syr that I truste the trouth of your two iuryes well what fawte is that that you fynde in thys iudges trouth that maketh you to chekke me so bycause I wyll trust hâ—m no wurse than I wyll truste them For that is ye wote well al that euer I sayde that I wolde trust the iudge as well and not that I wolde truste hym better And yet yf I had sayd I wolde of the bothe trusâ—e the iudge better I hadde not by that word neyther dyspraysed the trouth of iuryes For he that sayth he wyll better bysene .xxiiii. than .xii dysprayseth not the trouth of the petit iuries but byleueth theym well also saue suche as be founden false And thus I haue shewed you that I may well say the wordes that I sayd without any fyndynge of any fawte in any iuryes And it appâ—reth also metely well that hym selfe can not well say the contrary without some maner of dystrust in theyr trouth And yet syth theyr wurshyppys be so well knowe that this good mannys dystruste can not apayre it they wyll I dare saye forgeue hym How be it sith the iudges wold as this man sayth and as I dare also saye they wolde be sore dyscontent wyth me yf I dystrusted the â—routh of the iuryes the iuryes may now no lesse do agayne of courtesye than for his wurse opinion of the iudgê trouth somewhat be angry wytâ— hym ¶ Nor herin se I none other shyfte for this good man but for the mayntenaunce of hys mater to saye that in the comen law the law wold be good inough in felonye though the truste were put in the iudges to putte traytours and felons to answere wythout indyghtement but in heresye it coulde not be good before an ordynarye and wolde saye for hys cause a dyuersyte bytwene the tone iudge the tother and saye that oure iudges be good men and worshypful euer 〈◊〉 ben and euer shall and that the ordynaryes be and euer haue bene shal be very false nought Other shyfte hath this man none that I se than euyn to saye thus And veryly his boke of diuisyon saue that it saith nothynge to the prayse of temporall iudges that I now remember yet to the dysprayse of the spyrytuall for those algates that be now saith euyn in effecte as mych ye and rather yet wurse to saue that y e colour of some say saueth hym from sayenge it hym selfe ¶ But now yf he defend hym selfe with that fasshyon agayne what the iuryes wyll say that can I not tell for the panellys be not yet called But as for oure iudges I knowe theyr wysedoms and theyr wurshyppys such that I am very sure in his so sayenge and his so lyenge vppon the spyrituall iudges they wolde can hym no thanke at all ¶ And veryly that the spyrytual ordinaryes be not at these dayes lykely to be such y e temporall iudges beyng so good as they be there is amonge many other one lykelyhed this that he hath chosen the tone that hath chosen the tother the kynges gracyouse hyghnesse hym selfe whiche hauyng on both sydes very good to chose of hath I dare say ben as cyrcumspecte in chosynge of thordynaryes as of y e iudges And yet leste in theyr absence the offycers of theyr owne choyse might happe to misseordre y e maters his grace kepeth not two bysshoppes of all the realm out of theyr diocises nor
chapyter of his is clerely wrested awry For as though he had all proued whâ—re all is dysproued he fynysheth hys chapyter thus And thus it appereth that maysâ—er More can neyther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the arrestynâ—e of men for suspycyon of felonye for good aberynge to puttynge of men to answere vpon indytemeÌ„tes ne yet to them that may be accused by .xii. men and knowe not of it and thaâ— for the causes before remembred Wherfore it semeth that though it were clerely putte awaye the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt ¶ This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeê like But euery man may wel se that lyst to loke backe and rede it that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of but I haue very playnely proued it very lyke for y e purpose entent that I resemble it for And this shall euery man clerely se that wyll aduise pyece by pyece ¶ And therfore whyle vpon dyfferences dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken theÌ„ for he bosteth in conclusyon y t I can not proue them lyke I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke ¶ If it had come in this good maÌ„nes hed to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore to kyll vp all the band dogges thorow out all y e realmâ— wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were bestowâ—d had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this and than wold lay for the cause y e bandogges do spende vitayle wyll somtyme byte folke to yf I wolde than wryte agaynsâ—e his wyse boke and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp houndeâ— and grayhouÌ„des all for they must eate to and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne bothe for the pleasure that they do and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle so the band-dogges may not be forborne neither for they both defende husband mennes howses fro theues helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme such as wold not ellys come home now myghte this good man by this reason y t he vseth here write agayne defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggê therin answer me thus Fyrst y t for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all for men may make theyr seruauntes watche or make fast all theyr dorys and whan theâ—es wolde breke in defende theyr howses them selfe And as for suche bestes as wold not come home yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home and those that be to heuy to be borne home taye ropes to there taylys and drawe theym home And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther and that is this that he merueiled mych y t I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence resemble lyken together gentle houÌ„des or goodly greyhouÌ„des to such il fauored mastâ—ffes And thaÌ„ to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyfferencê his dyuersitees and saye a mastyffâ— hath you wote well a great iolte hed a great mosel a thycke boystuouse body where as a greyhouÌ„d hath a ê“perhed with a goodly smal long snowt fayre long sleÌ„der sydê the houÌ„dê yet mych lesse lyke ¶ And theruppon myght he there coÌ„clude as he nowe concludeth here and saye thus ¶ And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue y e mastyfes to be lyke to y e greyhouÌ„des nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther and that for the causes before remeÌ„bred wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough and they re bestes broughte home well ynough to so they sholde so ¶ Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppoÌ„ this and thought he had auoyded me well I could no farâ—her go therin in good fayth but let him take that glorye to hym And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter both hys wordes and myne and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together shall fynde I dare boldely warraunt that wyth his dyfferencê and hys dyuersytees he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys ¶ But now to turne agayn as I ê“mysed to the fyrste poynte that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers coÌ„syder well this good chrysten reader that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of he theÌ„ reserued vs yet both open accusacyons and presentementes to put heretyques to answere vpon But nowe in this .xv. chapiter of his in his boke of Salem Bizance for fauour towarde the catholyque fayth he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone and sayeth that open accusers shall suffycieÌ„tly serue the mater And vnto y t here y t I say and that euery man seeth that no maÌ„ wyll in heresy make hym self a ê‘tye by way of opeÌ„ accusyng therto saith thys good man nothynge ¶ He seeth perdy very well that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale as agaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges y e law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to thaccusynge of the brekers of y e same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure And yet for all that as longe as many lawes as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche excesse of apparayle and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyoÌ„s and therby accused those offenders the kynges courtes can declare and the lytle amendement may shew ¶ Ryottes be open thynges and enquyrable with paynes also set vpoÌ„ y e concelours yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde y e coÌ„celours neuer spokeÌ„ of a statut was there fayn to be made y t it myght be pursued punished by the kingê couÌ„sayle without presentement and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to For though the partyes that made the ryot and the partye vppon whome yt was made were so well agreed agayne that neyther nother wolde by they re wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it yet may the kyngê counsayle vpon secrete informacion cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot and put the partyes to answere and sende for what wytnesses they wyll ¶ Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser and that here the kynges atturney is For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offycer of they re owne
they confesse ones ye and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde then they re twyse naye vppon a solempne o the and yet confesse they not so symplye but that it is commenly holpen wyth some suche cyrcumstaunces as make the mater more clere ¶ Nowe as to those thyngê that I wrote in my dialoge coÌ„cernyng great crymynouse wytnesses to be taken in great criminall causes he answereth wyth no worde at all How be yt to say the trouth he the lesse neded For he geueth ouer here al that faute that he founde in the chapyter In fidei fauorem as a thyngeâ— wherin hym self seeth now that he was ouersene than and therfore he setteth that here passe by as though he hadde neuer spoken therof and stycketh onely vppon y t one case of hym y t is ones forsworen ¶ But now let vs se what he sayth here coÌ„cernynge this selfe same case Fyrst he saith y t y e lawes though they must deuyse suche waysas euyll persons maye be punyshed yet the makers of the lawes must as mych as in them is prouyde that innocentes shal be saued harmelesse This is very trew as myche as in them is the tother poynt beynge prouyded for to that offendours maye be punyshed But then say I y t yt is not in all the wittes of the world for punyshemeÌ„t of myscheuouse wreches to dyuyse a sawe in suche wyse that men maye be sure that none innocent can take harme therby And then yf he graunt me this whyche whyther he graunt or no yet very trew yt is then say I that his onely reason agaynst the suit ex officio and agaynst this lawe to that is to wytte that innocentes maye take harme therby if such a reason y t yf it were folowed iÌ„ euery law wher by mysseguyded folke are punyssed there shold no law stand for theyr punysheneÌ„t at al but lest it myght misse happe that some innocent myght take harme we sholde lette all myscheuouse folke alone therby suffre many mo good innoceÌ„t men take harme ¶ But then goeth this good maÌ„ ferther sayth y t the punishement of an offender must be by a dew a reasonable order And y â— is very trew also therfore we shal agre well in that But than goth he ferther and sayth I caÌ„ not se what dew or resonable order of tryal it is that he y â— vpoÌ„ his oth hath fyrst clered hym self hâ—s neyghbour of heresyes sholbe after contrarye to his fyrste othe be receyued agayne as a wytnesse to condemne hym that he clerâ—d byfore and that in the same courte and in the same mater ¶ Though this good man can not se yt other men can se yt and haue sene it dayly do se it to wel ynough I haue sene suche thynges as thys is my selfe proued I can not tell howe often that in the excuse of a thefe some haue taken an othe that the felon was with hym in hys owne house at suche tyme as the felonye sholde be done in a nother place And a man wolde haue wente he hadde ben credyble and sayd trouth And yet afterwarde hathe hym selfe confessed that the feson and hym selfe also were at the robberye bothe twayne and hys bare worde then more trewe then byfore was hys solempne othe And euery man that hathe medeled myche wyth suche examynacyons hath a sure experyence that this ys a commen fashyon of murderers and theuys and such as are theuys receyuours of whome at the fyrste face some seme honest men are so some tyme reputed and come forth for declaracyon of them that are suspected and in trouble and depose for them and yet after vppon some other occasyon in examynynge of the mater begynne to be suspected theym selfe and afterwarde confesse yt to bothe of them selfe and theym whom they came to clere by theyr periury before And I am very sure there be not a fewe that haue herd suche euydence geuen in causes of felony dyuerse tymes to the iurye ¶ But hereuppon bycause I spake in myne apologye of suche witnesses in felonye thys good man maketh here adâ—ute what maner wytnesses I mene whyther I mene y e .xii. men that are the iury or other wytnessys that are brought into the court for to enforme theÌ„ And thaÌ„ fyrst if I mene the .xii. men than he answereth me certayn thynges to shew that he can skyll of the law But veryly as for me I shal put hym out of that dowt that I ment not them For I neuer toke the .xii. men for wytnessys in my lyfe For why shold I call them witnesses whose verdycte the iudge taketh for a sure sentence concernynge the facte without any examynacyon of the cyrcumstaunces wherby they know or be ledde to byleue theyr verdicte to be trew ¶ And also wherfore shold I mene to call them wytnesses whome I se desyre wytnesses at the barre to enforme them in the mater as wytnessys enforme a iudge He myghte therfore haue spared hys labour in y e pyece well inough For I neyther ment tht iurye nor neuer toke theym for wytnesse ¶ If he wyll aske me what they be than I saye they be the iury And yf he wyll wyt ferthermore what persoÌ„ they represent of those y t are vÌ„suall in other courtes wherin there be no iuryes vsed than can I metely wel tell hym to yf the tale were as necessary as it wolde be longe ¶ But than cometh he to the tother parte and sayth And yf mayster More by that terme witnesse mene suche wytnesse as be somtyme brought into the kynges courtes to geue euydencys to an â—nqueâ—t than to that wytnesse no suche wytnesse as the wytnesse bene in the spyrytuall courte that shall acquyâ—e or condempne the partyes for of those wytnesse so brought into the kynges court to geue euydence to an â—nqueste at the comon lawe no mencyon shall be made in the recordes ne the iury be not bound alway to folow tho wytnesse For yf the iury of theyr owne knowlege or otherwyse know the trouth agaynsâ—e the sayenge of suche wytnesse they be bouâ—den to fynde accordynge to the trouth and let tho wytnes go And yet yf it haâ—ned that such collaterall wytnes fyrst testyfyed vpon theyr othe that the partye were not gylty and after it were informed the iudges that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayeng and wold saye that the partye were gylty I can not thynke that the iudges wolde any more calle them to here theyr sayenge therin And though they wolde yet as I sayd before it were farre vnlyke to thys case For theyr sayenge there is but as an euydence whiche the iury sholde not be bounde to byleue but as y â— truth is I can not se therfore how mayster More can proue his sayenge that suche wytnesses that is to say suche as be periured in â—he same court shulde be afterward receyued as wytnes in any of the kynges courtes ¶ Now good readers euer more remember this that
harte and of a new knowlege of the treuth and of a very zele vnto the â—ayth and yet do it in dede of couetyse falshod rancoure and malyce to the party And so as the gospell sayth he may happe outwarde to appere in the apparell of a shepe and within forth be a raumpynge wolfe And suche one maye that periured wytnesse be that iâ— spoken of in the sayde treatyse And of suche a wytnes in heresye the sayd treatyse speketh onely there and of none other witnesse as to the readers wyll appere And therfore as me semeth mayster More fyndeth defaute in thys behalfe where he hadde no cause reasonable so to do ¶ Now good reders where as this man sayeth that he ment that suche a forsworen wytnesse maye happely play the woulfe in a lambes skynne I graunt that he ment so But as I graunte y t to hym so muste he grauÌ„t thys agayne to me that so maye he playe to that was neuer sworen before And than whyle he goeth no ferther but that the tone happely may and can not hym selfe saye naye but that the tother happely maye so to there foloweth vppon that the thyng that I sayd before whyche this man sayth he merueyleth mych y t I wold say that ys to wytte that by that wyse reason there sholde be receyued in suche crimynall causes no maner wytnesse at all ¶ Now yf he leue his may happely and say that it is lykely that the forsworen witnesses wyll say false and the tother trew that neuer was swo ren before and that the witnesse ones forsworen afore is in his secund othe contrary to his fyrste more lykly to playe the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne than suche a playne symple man as was neuer sworen before I wyll be so bolde for thys ones as in some case to tell hym boldely nay For where he sayd a lytell afore y t he coulde not se how there coulde be any suche euydent token in any suche case but that such a periured wytnes myghte do it of a secrete hatered and seme charytable and so play y e wyly woulfe in the simple lambes skynne I can se well inough y t in some case there may be an euydent token that some suche wytnesse as was so fyrst forsworen were after in his secunde othe swerynge the contrary lesse lykely to lye play the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne than were an other that neuer was in hys lyfe before neyther forsworeÌ„ nor sworen ¶ For yf he that was before vppon his oâ—h examyned both of hym selfe his sone or of hym self his father or his other specyall knoweÌ„ frende on his othe clered them all do at an other tyme vppon a new oth confesse them all gyltye and hym selfe also and where peraduenture hym selfe must to the fyre bycause he was abiured before they maye turne yet in tyme be but abiured were not thys an euident token that he doth it not of any secrete hatered nor playeth not the wyly woulf in a lambes skynne For i wys to confesse hym selfe gylty in such case and puttyng hym self in worse case than hys felowes were but a pore poynt of a wyly woulfe And as I putte thys case for ensample so may there be many other For the tokens myght be playne inough though they were lesse playne thanne thus And therfore to conclude in this mater this man hath no reasoÌ„ in this worlde to defende hys fyrste booke wythall ¶ And therfore where he spendeth a patche in the ende about his declaracyon that it may be lawfull for hym to fynde defaute at lawes made by the chyrche so that he fynde them vppon a suffycyent reason bycause all that poynt nothyng helpeth hym here in this law agaynst whych he sheweth no reason reasonable but a reasoÌ„ as vnreasonable as euer reasonable man herde I shall I saye therfore let that piece passe by and here make an ende of hys .xvi. chapyter The .xvii. chapyter HIs .xvii. chapyter begynneth folio .lxii. In y e begynnyng wherof he merueâ—â—eâ—h that I speke so ofte in myne apology of his vsyng this word Some saye And he sheweth that in a â—ale tolde hym by other folke there is good reason that he so sholde say and that I vse the same worde my selfe to sometyme and telleth two places where fo 77. and fo 100. I neither dyd nor wyll fynde fawt that he vse this worde some say nor I wyll not let where the case requireth to saye my selfe y t some say this or that For I know well it is englyshe But the fawte that I founde and yet fynd is that hys booke of diuysyon abuseth the figure of so many some sayes to the sedicyoâ—s slawnder of y e clergye and specyally of thordinaryes in the punysshement of heresy to bryng theÌ„ in obloquy of the people therby And where as vppon coÌ„playntê made the maters haue late ben examined the treuth hath ben playnely proued contrary yet hath he neuer one Some say therof in al his boke neyther in y e tone boke nor the tother but all hys Some sayes euer more saye euyll neuer a Some say well This is the fawte that I fynde For yf he made a boke with fiue times as many good Some sayes as his Some sayes in that boke be nought I wold fynd in his Some sayes no defawt at all For some say is as I saye good englysshe But whan a booke is full of shrewde Some sayes there do some men saye that Some saye is as shrewd an englysh as any dowch woman speketh ¶ But now to shew that in all hys Some sayes he meneth none harme he goeth ferther and for a sample he bryngeth forth one whych is in very dede a very malycyouse noughty pestylent Some saye wherof the pretence is the sauegarde of innocentes theffecte is the dekaye of the faythe by the boldyng of heretykes the instrument is a false imagyned slauÌ„der agaynst the ordynaryes And as wylyly as those shrewys that begyle hym haue holpe hym to inuolue and inâ—ryke the mater I shall vse so playne and open a waye therin that euery man shall well se the trouth Lo these are thys good mannes wordes And one of the some sayes that he fyndeth defauâ—e at is thys I saye in the .viii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse thus And here some sayeâ— that bycause there is so greate a desyre in spyrytuall men to haue men abâ—iured or to be noted wyth heresye And that some as it were of a polycye doo noyse it that the realme is full of heretykes more then it is in dede that it is very peryllous that spyrytuall men shulde haue auctoryte to arresâ—e a man for euery lyght susâ—peccyon or complaynt of heresye tyll that desyre of punyshement in spyrytuall men be ceassed and gone but that they sholde make processe agayne them to brynge them in vppon payne of cursynge and then yâ— they tâ—â—ye .vi. dayes the kynges lawes to bryng them inâ— by a wrytte
surmyseth y t this is This was lo y e cause that made me to speke therof whych cause this maÌ„ gaue hym selfe and therfore nedeth not to meruayle as he doth wherfore I spake therof ¶ And therfore thus haue I good readers now replyed to euery chapyter of his boke by row saue onely y e last thre which go about a good viage into the holy lande a great way farre of fro me And I haue not leped to fro now forwarde now bakward in such maner as he playeth in his answere made vnto me without eyther order kepte or cause apperynge wherfore saue onely the cause that euery man may spye that he wold not haue it sene what places he lefte vntowched Which is in a maner the moste parte of all togyther that in my boke towched the thre chapyters of his And I haue on the tother syde not lefte any one pyece vnproued that my selfe spake of before or that any thynge perteyned vnto me ¶ And therfore where as in the begynnyng of the .xxii. chapyter Symkyn Salem geueth hys sentence vppon the sayde answere to the sayde apologye and alloweth the sayd answere well me thynketh that yf he consydered not onely how myche he hath lefte vnanswered how mych of his owne wordes vndefended whyche he nothynge hath towched at all but ouer that how febly he hath defended those thynges that he hath towched here Salem beynge indyfferent had ben like to haue allowed it but a lytell ¶ For settynge asyde for the whyle all the remanaunt yf he go but to the very pryncypal poynt alone wherin he laboreth to chauÌ„ge and put awaye those good lawes y e chauÌ„ge wherof suche as he deuyseth the decaye of the catholyke fayth and the encreace of heresyes wolde folowe in that poynt alone I say we laye agaynst hym the comen coÌ„sent of this realm And he layeth his own reasoÌ„ agaynst it We laye agaynste hym the consent of y e generall couÌ„sayle And agaynst this he layeth his owne reason We lay agaynst hym the generall approbacioÌ„ of all chrysteÌ„ realmes And agaynst this he layeth his own reason And what is hys owne irrefragable reason that he layth agaynst all this Surely no more as you se but that by those lawes an innoceÌ„t may sometyme take wrong Agaynste this reason we lay hym that yf this reason sholde stande than agaynst malefactours there could no law stande We laye agaynst it also that by his deuyces yf they were folowed by the encreace of heresyes many innocentes must nedes take mych more wronge ¶ To thys answereth he that he wyll not answere that And nowe when Salem seeth that he can not answere that seeth that al the weigth of the mater hangeth vpon that than Sym Salem geueth sentence that he hath answered very well But surely yf suche answeryng be well I wote not whyche way a man myght answere yll ¶ And therfore where as Symkyn Salem sayth that yf this good man wyll he wyll cause a frende of hys answere all the remanaunt he may do this good man a myche more freÌ„dly tourne yf he make hys frende answere this better fyrst that this good man hath answered allredy How be yt yf they lyste thus to geue ouer thys and assaye what they can saye better to any other pyece let theym a goddes name hardely go to for me And yf they saye any thynge metely to the mater I wyll put no frende to payne to make them answere but at leasure coÌ„uenient shal answere them my selfe And where they say well I wyll not let to saye so And where they say wronge I wyll not lette to tell theym But on the tother syde yf they go no better to worke nor no nerer to the mater then thys man hath done I shall peraduenture let them euen alone and lette them lyke theyr wrytynge theym selfe and no man ellys ¶ But now lettynge passe all specyall y t poyntes I shall answere y e generaltyes y t thys good man speketh of Form in the lefe .xc. these are hys wordes And now shall I saye somwhat farther in a generalytye as mayster More hathe done and that yâ— tâ—is that al that I speke in the sayde treatyse was to appeace this diuysyon and not to begynne any neâ—â— coÌ„tynue yt And therfore how they can saue theyr conscyence that saye I dyd rather intende a dyuysyon then agrement I can not tell theyr one conscyâ—nce shall be iudge And I entended also somwhat to mâ—â—e that myght be occasyon to put awaye abusyâ—â—â— euyll examplys and heresyes and not to â—â—crâ—ase theym or maynteyne theym I dare boldely saye ¶ To this I answâ—re that yt neyther was nor is my mynde that men shold thynke y t he ment eâ—yl him self as I haue in many placê of myn apology testified But verily I thought yet thinke y t by some wyly shrewis his boke was so mysse handeled that yt ment nought though he ment wel For where as he sayeth that wyth hys boke of dyuysyon all hys purpose was to appease dyuysyon I wyll not contende wyth hym vppon hys owne mynde But surely thys wyll I saye that yf I hadde ben of the mynde to sow and sette forthe dyuysyon I wold haue vsed euen the selfe same ways to kyndle yt that he vsed as he sayth to quenche yt ¶ Thenne goeth he farther and sayth And farther as mayster More knoweth better then I mentire est contra mentem ire that is to say to lye ys when a man sayeth agaynste hys owne mynde in good fayth in all that treatyse I speke nothynge but that I thought was trew ¶ To thys I answere that in dede suche a thynge I haue redde and as I remembre in Aulus Gellius Whyche thynge though I haue now no leasure to loke for yet two poyntes I remembre therof One that yt ys there mentiri and not mentire whyche infynytyue mode in what boke of grammer this good maÌ„ hath founde I can not tell I was aferd yt had ben ouersene in the prentynge But I haue loked the correccyons and there fynde I no faute founde therin ¶ The tother poynte I remembre that there ys a dyfference putte betwene mâ—ntiri mendacium dicere that is as we myghte saye betwene hym that wyttyngly lyeth and hym that telleth a lye wenyng that it were trewe And here yt is sayde wittyngly not to tell a lye perteyneth to a good man And not to tell a lye vnware is the parte of a wyse man And surely syth the scrypture sayeth that he that shortely byleueth is ouer lyghte thys good man to byleue so many lyes so soon and wyth so many some sayes to set theym forthe in prent to the rebuke and slaunder of the spyrytual iudges and make men wene they mysse handeled men for heresyes though the mannys innocent mynde made the synne the lesse yet was the thyng at the lest no lesse then a very great lyghtnesse ye and also a great profe towarde the reprofe of
merely to mokke hym thaÌ„ wyth odyouse ernest argumeÌ„tes seryousely to preace vppon hym Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do for chargyng of myn owne conscyence And therfore in all thynges y t me thynke are of greate weyght though I touche his wordê I accuse not his own mynde intent For in good fayth I haue of y t man good trust y t he meneth no wurse but wold all thyng were well hym self but euer more my mynde geueth me y t some wyly shrewes abuse y e good mannes simplicyte The .x. chapyter HIs .x. chapyter begynneth in the xxxiii lefe wherin he towcheth certayne wordê of myne wryten in the .xxvii. chapyter of myne apologye that begynneth fo 162. wherin he varyeth not mych with me sauynge in that I say that yf the prelates of y e chyrch wold wythdrawe from theyr worldely coÌ„tenaunce as is kepynge of honestley men in theyr seruyce and kepynge of a good wurshypfull table and wold bestow theyr plate the moste parte of all theyr mouables at ones vppon poore folke and yerely after the moste of theyr yerely reuenus to of whiche mynde I sayd I durste warraunt well that some prelates be yf that wolde as I saye there amende all these grudges that I durste be bolde to warraunt as well also that yf the prelates so dyd the selfe same folke that now grudge and call them proude for theyr countenaunce wold than fynde as great a grudge call them ypochrytes for theyr almoyse and wolde saye that they spende vppon noughty beggers the good that was wont to kepe good yomen and that therby they both enfeble and also dyshonour the realme ¶ Vppon these wordes of myn this good man maketh me forsothe a full goodly sermoÌ„ in the .xxxv. lefe of his booke where he begynneth it with these wordes I can not se. And veryly yf he had there left gone no ferther it had ben well inough For as for the thyng that he speketh of it appereth by hys wordes he can not se very well in dede ¶ Bycause chryst commaundeth in the gospell y t we shall not iudge and that saynt Poule sayth also who art thou that iudgest another maÌ„nes seruaunt and agayne byddeth vs that we iudge not before the tyme al whiche places are vnderstand of iugyng certayne and determinate persons to do euyll in the thynges that we se them do where the thynges be but indyfferent of them selfe and maye be done not euyl onely but well also this good man therfore layeth these textys to touche me for iudgyng that some folke whom I neyther assigne by name nor as yet knowe not who they be wyll do euyll hereafter by mysse iudgynge other men ¶ I wene verely that saynt Poule hym selfe at the tyme whan he forbode vs to â—iudge before the tyme did euyn than iudge that some wolde after that misse iudge and iudge before the tyme to ¶ And albe it that our sauyour saith that who so call hys brother fole is gylty to the fyre â— yet he ment not of him y t wold say that there were some folys abrode in the worlde For yf he so ment than wolde there not tenne fyrys be payne inough for hym that wrote these wordes in the scrypture There are of folys an infynyte nomber ¶ And bycause this good man vseth somtyme thys fygure of examynacyon I wolde wytte of mayster More thiâ— that I wolde nowe wytte thys one thynge of thys good man Suche sawtes as he fyndeth wyth the spyrytualty wryten in hys boke of dyuysyon whyther dyd he than iudge y t some of the spyrytualtye wolde fall in them any more after or not If he iudged that all theyr fantasyes towarde those fawtes were all redy passed before and that none of them wolde neuer do more so than hadde he lytel cause to write all that wurke vppon theym And vn the tother syde yf he iudged that some of them wolde afterwarde do some such thynges agayne eyther but yf he gaue theym warnynge or ellys though he dyd as I dare saye what so euer hym selfe saye in some of those thynges he dyd than syth y e tyme in which he iudged in his mynd made hym selfe therof sure y t some of theym wolde do some suche euyll thynges afterwarde as were at the tyme of the same iudgement of hys mynde not comen hym selfe fell as you se by hys owne argument in the daynger of that prohybycyon y t hym selfe bryngeth in by whyche saynte Poule forbedeth and sayth Nolite ante tempus iudicare Iudge you not before the tyme. ¶ Now yf he say that I tell whom I mene though not by name yet by a sygne and a token in that I saye euyn the same wyll than call theym ypocrytes for theyr almoyse that nowe call theym proude for theyr worldely countenaunce he muste consyder that I neyther tell nor can tell who be they nor though I saye the same I saye not yet all the same And therfore no more mysse iudge any man determynately and in certayne than he that wolde saye thus as many men saye in dede Euyn they that go now full fresshe in theyr garded hosyn and theyr gaye golden reuen shyrtes and in theyr sylken sleuys that nought haue to bere it out but gamynge wyll ones I warrauÌ„t you fall fro gamynge to stelynge start strayt out of sylke into hempe Thus sayeth and thus iudgeth ye wote well many a man and yet meneth not that it shall so mysse happe them all but that some shall amende and do better and that yet hys worde wyll be veryfyed in many so doth it proue in dede and he that so sayth before is farre inough fro the dayngeour of all those textes whych this good man precheth to me ¶ But than he sayth ferther that he trusteth that those prelates whom I saye I durste warraunt to be of such mynde wyll not dyfferre theyr good purpose for no suche suspycyon that happely wyll neuer come ne yet for no such vncherytable wordê though they were spoken in dede And thervppon he descendeth to the makyng of actys of perleament ¶ If those prelates that I mene of rekened them self very sure y t all the wytte and the lernynge that is in the worlde or within this realme eyther were eyther in theyr owne hedys or in this good maÌ„nes and myne which peraduenture for myne owne mynde colde agre well with this good man in this poynt and aduise those prelates that I speke of to folowe theyr owne mynde therin and out of hande euyn so to do thaÌ„ haue I lytell dowt but that they wold euyn so do in dede But some of them haue ofter ben as I suppose than onys where they haue herde both wyse and good folke to and peraduenture yet sholde here agayne yf it were as thys man wold haue it spoken of in the playne open perleament that wolde not fayle to dyssuade it and laye no lytell causes why ¶ But I wyl not at this