Victor had excommunicated and so they came to be ranked among Heretiques vnder the name of Quartadecimam You may know what opinion S. Irenaeus had of Popes by these words Euery Church ought to haue recourse (h) Aduers Haeres lib. 3. cap. 3. to Rome by reason of her more powerfull Principality And euen in this your instance Eusebius doth only say that Irenaeus did fitly exhort Pope Victor that he should not cut off all the Churches of God which held this ancient Tradition Which exhortation doth necessarily imply that Pope Victor had Power to do it as I said already And now I pray you reflect vpon your precipitation in saying of Vactor and Stephen Their Censures (i) Pag. 50. were much sleighted and their Pride and Schisme in troubling the peace of the Church much condemned For they did nothing which was not approued by the vniuersall Church of God and the Doctrines which they condemned were no lesse then hereticall And therfore to answere also to what you obiect pag. 52. If the British and Scotish Bishops did adhere to the Churches of Asta in their Celebration of Easter after the matter was knowne to be defined by the Church their example can only be approued by such as your selfe nor can it either impeach the Authority or darken the proceeding of the Pope You cite Baronius (l) Aun 604. in the Margent who directly against you relates out of Bede that when our Apostle S. Augustine could neither by Arguments nor by Miracles wrought in their presence bow their stifnes he prophefied that they should perish by the English as afterwards it hapned But you are a fit Champion for such men and they no lesse fit examples to be alleaged against the Authority of the Roman Church 33. Your other example that S. Augustine and diuers other Bishops of Africa and their Successours for one hundred yeares together were senered from the Roman Communion is manifestly vntrue in S. Augustine and some other chiefe Bishops For when king Thrasimundus had banished into Sardinia almost all the Bishops to wit two hundred and twenty Pope Symmachus maintained them at his owne charges as persons belonging to his Communion To the Epistle of Boniface the second to Eulalius Bishop of Alexandria and the Epistle of Eulalius to the same Boniface recited by you out of which it is gathered that after the sixt Councell of Carthage for the space of one hundred yeares the Bishops of Carthage were separated from the Communion of the Roman Church that in the end they were reconciled to her Eulalius submitting himselfe to the Apostolique Sea and anathematizing his Predecessors Bellarmine (m) de Rom. Pont. l. 2. c. 25. answereth that these Epistles may iustly be suspected to be Apochryphall for diuers reasons which he alleageth and it seemeth also by your owne words that you do doubt of them For you say If their owne Records (n) Pag. 50 be true Yet if they be authenticall their meaning cannot be that all the Predecessors of Eulalius were for so long space diuided from the Roman Church the contrary being most manifest not only in S. Augustine who kept most strict amity with Zozimus Innocentius and Celestinus Popes but also in S. Fulgentius and others but it must be vnderstood only of some Bishops of Carthage and in particular of Eulalius himselfe till he being informed of the truth submitted himselfe to the Roman Church And you ought rather to haue alleaged his submission and condemnation of his Predecessors to proue the Popes Authority ouer the African Church then to obiect against it the example of some of his Predecessors of himselfe who afterward repented and condemned his owne fact You do well only to mention the Protensions and forgeries of the sea of Rome in the matter of Appeales For you may know that Bellarmine (o) Vbisup doth so fully answere that point as nothing can be more effectuall to proue the Popes Supremacy in Africa then the right of Appeales from Africa to Rome in causes of greater moment 34. Your last instance about three Chapters of the Councell of Chalcedon condemned by the fifth Generall Councell the Bishop of Rome at length consenting for which diuers Bishops of Italy and also the Bishops of Ireland did ioyntly depart from the Church of Rome is like to your former Obiections For Baronius whome you cite in your Margent hath these words as coÌ„trary to your purpose as may be Hence was it that the (q) Ann. 553. num 14. apud Spond Bishops of Venice the adicyning Regions did gathâ—â— together a Councell at Aquileia agaynst the Fifth Synode and the diuisions at length went as farre as â—reland for all these relying on the Decree of Vigilius Pope persuaded themselues that they might doe it Is this to depart from the Pope or the Roman Church to oppose that which he is thought to oppose formally because he is thought to oppose it Now as for the thing it selfe when Vigilius had afterward condeÌ„ned the three Chapters which at the first he refused to doe and had confirmed the fifth Councell which had coÌ„demned them whosoeuer opposed that Condemnation were accounted Schismatiques by the whole Catholique Church which plainly shewes the Popes Authority and therefore whatsoeuer Bishops had opposed Vigilius their example could proue no more then the faction of rebellious persons can preiudice the right of a lawfull King And in fine all this Controuersy did nothing concerne any matter of faith but only in fact and not doctrine but persons as may be seen at large in Baronius Neither was it betwixt Catholiques and Heretiques but among Catholiques themselues The rest of your Section needs no answere at all Only whereas you say Whosoeuer willfully opposeth (r) Pag. 57 any Catholique Verity maintayned by the Catholique Visible Church as doe Heretiques or peruersly diuides himselfe from the Catholique Communion as doe Schismatiques the Condition of both them is damnable What vnderstand you by Catholique verities of the Catholique Church Are not all Verityes mayntayned by the Catholique Church Catholique Verities or how do you now distinguish Heresy and Schisme from the Catholique Communion You tells vs pag. 76. that it is the property of Schisme to cut off from the Body of Christ and the hope of Saluation the Church from which it separats and is it not an Heresy to cut off from the Body of Christ hope of Saluation the Catholike Church How then can one according to your principles be a Schismatique from the Catholique Church not be iointly an Heretique CHAP. III. THE Protestants (a) Pag. 59. neuer intended to erect a new Church but to purge the Old The Reformation did not change the substaÌ„ce of Religion but only cleansed it from corrupt and impure Qualities Therfore say we the visible Church extaÌ„t before those your cleansing dayes had still hath the substance of Religion and so according to your owne ground we are safe if
now And heertofore I haue declared at large in what sense and vpon what occasion and reason S. Augustine against the Donatists made recourse to Scripture alone 26. You begin to impugne the Popes infallibility by saying that Charity-Mistaken meanes by his infallible Church only the Pope Which saying of yours doth well declare how fallible your affirmations are And that if the Pope define that to be white which the eye iudges to be blacke it must be so admitted by vs you pretend to proue out of I know not what papers of the Iesuites found in Padua in witnes wherof you alleage Paulus Soarpius a seditious scandalous and condemned Author we must by no meanes belieue you without better proofe You cite also out of Bellarmine these words If he the Pope should (b) De Rom â— Pont. lib. 4. c. 5. §§ Quodantens erre and command the practise of vice or forbid the exercise of vertue the Church were bound in conscience to belieue vices to be good and vertues to be bad Who would not thinke by these words of Bellarmine as you corrupt him that indeed we might belieue Vice to be good and Vertueil The direct contrary wherof he affirmes and from thence infers that the Pope whom the Church is obliged to obey as her Head and Supreme Pastor cannot erre in decrees of manners prescribed by him to the whole Church These be his words If the Pope did erre in commanding vices or forbidding Vertue the Church were bound to belieue that Vice is good and Vertue ill vnles she would sinne against her conscience For in doubtfull things the Church is bound to subiect herselfe to the Iudgment of the Pope and to do what he commands and not to do what he forbids and lest she should sinne agaynst her conscience she is bound to belieue that what he commands is good that what he forbids is ill For the auoyding of which inconuenience he concludes that the Pope cannot erre in Decrees concerning manners by forbidding Vertue or commanding Vice If one should proue that Scripture cannot erre in things concerning manners because otherwise Christians who are bound to belieue whatsoeuer the Scripture sayth should be obliged to belieue Vertue to be ill and Vice to be good would you infer that indeed we are to belieue Vertue to be ill and Vice to be good Or rather that indeed Scripture could not propose or command any such thing This is that which Bellarmine sayth But your selfe is he according to whose principles we might be obliged to imbrace vice c. For since you affirme that the authority (d) Pag. 1â—â— of Generall Councels is immediately deriued from Christ and that their Decrees bind all persons to externall Obedience and seing you hold that they may erre perniciously both in fayth and manners What remaines but that we must be obliged euen by authority immediately deriued from Christ himselfe to erre with the Councell and at lest externally imbrace Vice 29. You come afterward to discourse thus These men (e) Pag. 17â— deale not plainely with vs when they pretend often in their disputations against vs Scriptures Fathers Councells and the Church since in the issue their finall and infallible argument for their fayth is only the Popes Authority It were indeed a happy thing and a most effectuall way to end all Controuersies if people would submit themselues to some visible liuing Iudge by whom they might be instructed by whom it might be declared who alledge Scriptures and Fathers right or wrong Which since you and your Brethren refuse to do no wonder if we be constrained to alledge Scriptures and Fathers as you likewise do though you say that Scripture is infallible and that all Controuersies must be decided by it alone Besides though the Pope be infallible yet he is not so alone as if he did exclude all other infallible meanes for Scriptures Generall Councells and the Consent of the whole Catholique Church are also infallible And therfore as I was saying it is no wonder that we alledge other Arguments besides the decrees of Popes alone For since in our disputes with you we abound with all kind of arguments why should we not make vse therof And if you will know the reason why Councells be gathered to the great good of the Church notwithstanding the Popes infallibility you may read Bellarmine who giues (f) De Rom. Pontif lib. 4. cap. 7. §. Respondeo Id. the reason therof I hope you will grant that S. Peter was infallible and yet he thought good to gather a Councel Act. 15. for greater satisfaction of the faythfull and to take away all occasions of temptation in the weaker Christians What estimation Antiquity made of the Popes Authority I haue shewed heertofore And if some who haue written Pleas or Prescriptions against Heretiques do not without more adoe appeale (g) Pag. 173. all Heretiques to the Popes Tribunall you haue no cause to wonder since commonly the first error of all Heretiques is to oppose the Pope and the Church of Rome and therfore they must be conuinced by other Arguments Tertullian in his Prescriptions against Heretiques doth particularly aduise and direct that Heretiques are not to be admitted to dispute out of Scripture and that it is but in vaine to seeke to conuince them by that meanes and yet you hold that the Scripture is not only infallible but the sole Rule also of fayth How then do you infer against vs that if the Pope be infallible Tertullian should haue appealed all Heretiques to his Tribunall since he doth not appeale them to Scripture which yet he belieued to be infallible And neuertheles the two Authors whom you cite Tertullian and Vincentius Lyrinensis speake as much in aduantage of the Pope and Church of Rome as can be imagined If sayth Tertullian thou liue (h) Praescript cap. 36. neere Italy thou hast the Citty of Rome from thence Authority is neere at hand euen to vs Africans A happy Church into which the Apostles haue powred their whole doctrine together with their bloud And Vincentius Lyrinensis cals the (i) In sus Com. Pope and Church of Rome the Head and other Bishops as S. Cyprian from the South S. Ambrose from the North c. and others from other places the sides of the world And I cited these words out of him before who speaking of Rebaptization saith Then (k) In Com. part 1. the blessed Stephen resisted together with but before his Colleagues iudging it as I conceiue a thing worthy of him that he should surmount them as much in Fayth as he did in the authority of his place Of the opposition of some particular men to the Pope we haue spoken already and in your saying that his Authority hath beene opposed by Generall Councels we will not belieue you til you bring better proofe That the diuisions of the Easterne from the Latine Church proceeded from the ambition pretensions of the Bishop of Rome
You say that it is comfort inough for the Church that the Lord in merey will secure her from all capitall dangers but she may not hope to triumph ouer all sinne and errour till she be in heauen Now if it be comfort inough to be secured from all capital daÌ„gers which can arise only from errour in fundamentall points why were not your first Reformers content with Inough but would needs dismeÌ„ber the Church out of a pernicious greedines of more then Inough For this Inough which according to you is attained by not erring in points not fundameÌ„tal was enioyed before Luthers reformation vnlesse you will now against your selfe affirme that loÌ„g before Luther there was no Church free from errour in fundamental points Moreouer if as you say no Church may hope to triumph ouer all errour till she be in heauâ—n You must eyther grant that errours not fundamentall cannot yield sufficieÌ„t cause to forsake the Church or els you must affirme that all Communities may ought to be forsaken so there wil be no end of Schismes or rather indeed there can be no such thinge as Schisme because according to you all Communities are subiect to errours not fundamentall for which if they may be lawfully forsaken it followeth cleerely that it is not Schisme to forsake them Lastly since it is not lawfull to leaue the Communion of the Church for abuses in life and manners because such miseries cannot be auoided in this world of temptation and since according to your Assertion no Church may hope to triumph oner all sinne and errour You must grant that as she ought not to be left by reason of sinne so neyther by reason of errours not fundamental because both sinne errour are according to you impossible to be auoided til she be in heaueÌ„ 23. Furthermore I aske whether it be the Quantity or Number or Quality and Greatnes of doctrinall errours that may yield sufficient cause to relinquish the Churches Communion I proue that neyther Not the Quality which is supposed to be beneath the degree of points fundamentall or necessary to saluation Not the Quantity or Number For the foundation is strong inough to support all such vnnecessary additions as you terme them And if they once weighed so heauy as to ouerthrow the foundation they should grow to fundamentall errors into which your selfe teach the Church cannot fall Hay and stubble say you and such (g) pag. 153. vnprofitable stuff laid on the roofe destroies not the howse whilest the maine pillars are standing on the foundation And tell vs I pray you the precise number of errors which cannot be tolerated I know you cannot do it and therfore being vncertaine whether or no you haue cause to leaue the Church you are certainely obliged not to forsake her Our blessed Sauiour hath declared his will that we forgiue a priuate offender seauenty seauen times that is without limitation of quantity of time or quality of trespasses and why then dare you alledge his commaund that you must not pardon his Church for errors acknowledged to be not fundamentall What excuse can you faigne to your selues who for points not necessary to saluation haue been occasions causes and authors of so many mischiefes as could not but vnaucydably accompany so huge a breach in kingdomes in Common wealths in priuate persons in publique Magistrates in body in soule in goods in lise in Church in the state by Schismes by rebellions by war by famine by plague by bloudshed by all sorts of imaginable calamities vpon the whole face of the Earth wherin as in a map of Desolation the heauines of your crime appeares vnder which the world doth pant 24. To say for your excuse that you left not the Church but her errors doth not extenuate but aggrauate your sinne For by this deuise you sow seeds of endles Schismes put into the mouth of all Separatists a ready answere how to auoide the note of Schisme from your Protestant Church of England or from any other Church whatsoeuer They will I say answere as you do prompt that your Church may be forsaken if she fall into errors though they be not fundamentall And further that no Church must hope to be free from such errors which two grounds being once laid it will not be hard to infer the consequence that she may be forsaken 25. From some other words of D. Potter I like wise proue that for Errors not fundamentall the Church ought not to be forsaken There neither was sayth he nor can be (h) Pag. 5. any iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe To depart from a particular Church namely from the Church of Rome in some doctrines and practises there might be iust and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing necessary to saluation Marke his doctrine that there can be no iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ and yet he teacheth that the Church of Christ may erre in points not fundamentall Therfore say I we cannot forsake the Roman Church for points not fundamental for then we might also forsake the Church of Christ which your selfe deny and I pray you consider whether you do not plainely contradict your selfe while in the words aboue recited you say there can be no iust cause to forsake the Catholique Church and yet that there may be necessary cause to depart from the Church of Rome since you grant that the Church of Christ may erre in points not fundamentall that the Roman Church hath erred only in such points as by and by we shall see more in particular And thus much be said to disproue their chiefest Answere that they left not the Church but her Corruptions 26. Another euasion D. Potter bringeth to auoid the imputation of Schisme and it is because they still acknowledge the Church of Rome to be a Member of the body of Christ and not cut off from the hope of saluation And this sayth he cleares vs from (i) pag. 76. the imputation of Schisme whose property it is to cut of from the Body of Christ and the hope of saluation the Church from which it separates 27. This is an Answere which perhaps you may get some one to approue if first you can put him out of his wits For what prodigious doctrines are these Those Protestants who belieue that the Church erred in points necessary to saluation and for that cause left her cannot be excused from damnable Schisme But others who belieued that she had no damnable errors did very well yea were obliged to forsake her and which is more miraculous or rather monstrous they did well to forsake her formally and precisely because they iudged that she retained all meanes necessary to saluation I say because they so iudged For the very reason for which he acquitteth himselfe and condemneth those others as Schismatiques is because he holdeth that the Church which both of them forsooke is
expressely condemne as erroneous or in the next degree to Heresy But because it were a vanity to muster a number of Writers in a question impertinent to our present designe which is only against Heresy or Schisme both which exclude inuincible ignorance I hold it best to passe them ouer in silence 30. Your saying that A man may be a true visible membër (t) Pag. 47. of the holy Catholique Church who is not actually otherwise then in vow a member of any true visible Church destroyes it selfe For in the same manner and degree neyther more nor lesse a man is a visible member in act or in desire of the visible Church as he is a mēber of the true Catholique Church which is visible And Bellarmine whome you cite for your selfe is directly agaynst you For he teacheth that a man may (u) de Eccles milit cap. 6. Respondeo be in the Church in desire which is sufficient for Saluation when he is inuoluntarily hindred from being actually of the Church and yet not in the Church by externall Comunion which properly maketh him to be of the visible Church which is directly to deny what you affirmed I might reflect what a pretty connection you make in saying who is not actually otherwise then in vow c. you might as well haue sayd who is not actually otherwise then not in act c. But such small matters as these I willingly dissemble The poore man in the Ghospell was cast out of the Synagogue by notorious iniustice and therefore still remayned a member of the Iewish Church not only in desire but also in act You say Athanasius stood single in defense of diuine Truth all his Brethren the other Patriarchs not he of Rome excepted hauing subscribed to Arianisme and cast him out of their Communion And you referre vs to Baronius cited in your Margent to what purpose I know not except to display your owne bad proceeding For Baronius in the place by you alledged (w) Anno 357. num 44. apud Spond doth not incidently or only by the way but industriously and of set purpose cleere Pope Libertu◠from hauing euer subscribed to Arianisme He subscribed indeed to the condemnation of S. Athanasius which was not for matter of faith but of fact to wit for certayne crimes obiected agaynst him as Bellarmine (x) De Rom. Port lib. 4. cap. 9. affirmeth which being false S. Athanasius did not therefore cease to be a member of the Catholike Church If the errours of Tertullian were in themselues so smal as you would make them it may serue for an example that not so much the matter as the manner and obstinacy is that which makes an Heretique which ouerthrowes your distinction of points fundamentall c. 31. The proofes which you bring from the Africans and others that Communion with the Roman Church was not alwayes held necessary to Saluation haue been a thousand tymes answered by Catholique Writers and they are such as you could not haue chosen any more disaduantagious to your cause Heertofore I shewed that Communion with the Roman Church was by Antiquity iudged to be the marke of a true Belieuer And indeed seing you speake of those times wherin Rome stood in her purity as you say how could any be diuided from her fayth and yet belieue aright Do not your selfe say Whosoeuer professeth himselfe to forsake (y) Pag. 76. the Communion of any one member of the Body of Christ must confesse himselfe consequently to forsake the whole How then could any diuide themselues from the Romane Church while she was in her purity Euen S. Cyprian whose example you alleage fayth They (z) Ad Cornel ep 33. presume to saile to the Roman Church which is the Chaire of Peter and to the principall Chaire from whence Priestly Vnity hath sprung Neither do they consider that they are Romans whose fayth was commended by the preaching of the Apostle to whom falshood cannot haue accesse Optatus Mileuitanus also an African saith At Rome hath been constituted to Peter (a) 〈◊〉 Parm. lib. 2. the Episcopall Chaire that in this only Chaire the Vnity of all might be preserued And S. Augustine like wise an African affirmeth that Cacilianus might despise (b) Epist 62 the conspiring multitude of his enemies that is of seauenty Bishops of Africa assembled in Numidia because he saw himselfe vnited by letters Communicatory with the Roman Church in which the Principality of the Sea Apostolique had alwayes flourished And after Pelagius had been iudged in the East by the Bishops of Palestine and Celestius his Disciple had been excommunicated for the same cause in Asrica by the African Bishops the Mileuitan Councell referred them finally to the Pope saying We hope by the (c) Ep. Conc. Mileu ad Innocent inter epist. Aug. epist 92 mercy of our Lord Iesus-Christ who vouchsafe to gouerne thee consulting with him and to heare thee praying to him that those who hold these Doctrines so peruerse and pernicious will more easily yield to the authority of thy Holynes drawne out of the holy Scriptures Behold the Popes prerogatiue drawne out of the holy Scriptures And it is very strang that you will alleage the Authority of S. Cyprian and other Bishops of Africa against Pope Stephen who opposed himselfe to them in the Question of Rebaptization wherin they agreed with the Heresy of the Donatists which was condemned not only by the Pope but by the whole Church yea by those very Bishops who once adhered to S. Cyprian as S. Hierome witnesseth saying Finally they who had been (d) Coutra Luçifer of the same opinion set forth a new decree saying What shall we do So hath it been deliuered to them by their Ancestors and ours And Vincentius Lyrinensis speaking of Stephen his opposing S. Cyprian sayth Then (e) In Com. part 1. the blessed Stephen resisted together with but yet before his Collegues iudging it as I conceiue to be a thing worthy of him to excell them as much in Fayth as he did in the authority of his place 32. Neither are you more fortunate in the example of Pope Victor then in the other of Stephen For although Eusebius whom S. Hierome (f) Contra Ruff. Apol. 1. stiles the Ensigne-bearer of the Arian Sect and who was a profest Enemy of the Roman Church doth relate that S. Irenaeus (g) Hist. Eccles lib. 5. c. 24. reprehended Victor for hauing excommunicated the Churches of Asia for the question about keeping Easter yet euen he dare not say that Irenaeus blamed the Pope for want of Power but for misapplying it which supposeth a Power to do it if the cause had been sufficient And the successe shewed that euen in the vse of his Power Pope Victor was in the right For after his death the Councels of Nice Constantinople and Ephesus which you receiue as lawfull Generall Councels excommunicated those who held the same Custome with the Prouinces which