this place is to satisfie his Disciples that murmured about his telling them of of eating his flesh and drinking his blood and to take them off from looking at his outward fleshly presence as if his outward flesh or outward words were that which they were to feed upon or alwaies to expect to hear but there was another flesh to be known and other work to be read in the inward man by the Spirit for that quickneth and those words are Spirit and life but the flesh profiteth nothing so by this may the enlightned understanding see and read plainly the scope and drift of Christs Words and not to be spoken in that sence which thou and others in your vain minds conceive but have a deeper understanding which the children of light are acquainted withal so that the Query yet remains unanswered by thee viz. what then is the flesh that profiteth nothing And for thy answer to the second part of the Query viz. and what is that flesh after which Christ was once known yet henceforth know we him so no more to which thou answerest To know any man or Christ after the flesh it was to know according to the natural line of Abram and so according to the first Covenant but now know we him no more that is not by a natural descent but he that is in Christ is a new Creature and all the old things of the first Covenant are passed away and all things are become new and thou quotes Philip. 3.3 4 5. and saith We will help to clear the sence of this place viz. what is that flesh after which Christ was once known yet henceforth know we him so no more By this answer to the Query thou hast but manifested thy ignorance of Christ after the Spirit for doth the knowledge of Christ after the Spirit teach to deny the natural descent of Christ after the flesh seeing it is reckoned up as one of the Israelites Priviledges viz. of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen Rom. 9.4 5. Or is Christ changed from what he was Or is he the same yesterday and to day and for ever And doth the Apostle Paul teach to forget the Genealogy of Christ from Abram Or hath he forgotten his love to his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh which he saith Rom. 9.3 he could wish himself separated from Christ for them Or doth he instrust children after they are come to the knowledge of Christ no more to know their Parents after the flesh or natural descent or any other man after any natural line Surely to say so had been crime enough against the people called Quakers then might thou have had some ground to cry out of their disrespect to Superiours and of the neglect of children in not obeying their Parents and subjects in not giving honour to Magistrates and of servants in not obeying of their Masters after the flesh which in thy Book thou seems to blame the Quakers for their remisness therein and dost thou do the same thing Or dost thou go about to interpret Pauls words to such a sence Whereas he himself was so far from denying his natural descent or linage or outward Priviledge that upon occasion he reckons it up again and again and stands upon it and is not condemned for it and doth he write to the Corinthians to know no man after the natural line or descent No not Christ himself What doth Paul make void Matthews and Lukes reckoning up of the natural line or descent of Christ from Abraham Are we no more to know Christ so What do the Christians with it in their Bibles then if Christ be no more to be known so But let us see if the Apostle Paul have one word tending that way in that place thou quotes 2 Cor. 5.16 For he is speaking how the love of Christ constrained them at the 14. ver and the cause of it because saith he we thus judge that if one died for all then were all dead and that he died for all that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them and rose again Wherefore from henceforth know we no man according to the flesh for so it is and some translations read it so yea though we have known Christ according to the flesh yet now henceforth know we him no more Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature old things are past away behold all things are become new And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ c. James Pope what ground is here for thy conceived imagination therefore wait upon the Lord in the light of his Son that thou may be made alive by God by being his workmanship in Christ Jesus and then thou wilt know how the word henceforth in the 15. ver answers to the word henceforth in the 16. ver and then thou wilt see how such inventions and interpretations of thy own brain are some of those old things which then thou wilt behold passing away as thou becomes a new Creation and all things will be of God and in that day thou wilt know the first Covenant and its vanishing by the new everlasting Covenant which is Gods free gift but known to none who are alive without the Law and have their first husband living such must know a bitter cup and a day of death before ever they can be married to Christ Take this in love to thy Soul James Pope for this is the Word of the Lord to thee and is of nearer concernment to thee then as yet thou art aware of And for that of Philip. 3.3 4 5. it proves nothing of thy conceit and invention but rather may serve to condemn thee who art comparing outward circumcision and outward washing together as being fitted to the New Testament as outward circumcision was to the Old but we are the Circumcision which worship God in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh neither Faith in any outward washing with outward water but our Faith stands in Christ alone in whom we are compleat both as to the true Circumcision and to the one Baptism and to the one bread in which we have Communion together in the body and as many as are joyned to the Lord are one Spirit and are of one heart and one Soul and do not deny any of the Gospel Ordinances or plead for the abrogating of them as thou saist the Query seems to suppose but this we plead against will-worship and all likenesses and dead imitations in the worship of God for by the Gospel of our Salvation are we made alive and do not rush into Gods service without fear and the leadings of his Spirit having in times past felt by experience and smarted for having a form of godliness but not sensible of the power and a name to live and accounted as worshippers but were in the
Unrighteousness NO PLEA FOR TRUTH Nor Ignorance a Lover of it Being an Answer to a book called A Plea for Truth in love to Truth subscribed by James Pope Wherein is contained his Answer to several Queries sent to him by Thomas White which are tried and found unsatisfactory and James Popes Ten Queries to the people called Quakers fully answered Also the Doctrine and Practise of the People called Baptists examined and weighed in the true ballance and found too light With a full discussion of their Principles and particularly their Ordinances of breaking bread and water-baptism c. With some Queries to all the People called Baptists wheresoever they are to be found for them to answer in Truth and Righteousnesse and in Gods fear By a true Lover of all their souls and eternal welfare JOHN CROOK Try all things and hold fast that which is good For enquire I pray thee of the former age and prepare thy selfe to the search of their fathers Job 8.8 He shall lean upon his house but it shall not stand he shall hold it fast but it shall not endure Job 8.15 Printed for Tho. Simmons at the Bull Mouth near Aldersgate 1659. THE PREFACE THe Lord of Hosts is arisen and arising in his power to shake the earth and not onely the Earth but Heaven also that that which cannot be shaken may remain and this shaking is for the removing of those things which are shaken as of things that are made And for Alaruming of the World and awakening all professions and Professors that so every man may betake himself to his God and he that answers by fire and consumes the chaffe and stubble let him be God and all bow before him that so his Name may be exalted above every name and that to him every knee may bow both of things in Heaven and things in Earth for to him must all bow and bend and the Prophet which he hath raised up must all hear or be cut off from among the people and this Prophet is like unto Moses and must go before Israel to lead the holy Seed out of Aegypt and to divide the Sea for Israel to passe and to stand in the gap to intercede that so the Lords wrath may be appeased but they that refuse him that speaks cannot escape Therefore Reader whosoever thou art take heed that thou neglect not this the day of thy visitation nor that great salvation which is proffered to thee in the light of Christ for if thou harden thy heart against it thou cannot prosper neither canst thou ever hear his voyce nor see his shape but in the light for he will not alwayes strive with thee neither will he accept an offering at thy hand while thou rebels against his light that shines in thy heart to give thee the knowledge of God in Christ for Gods soul is weary of all vain oblations that are offered up in the wills of men and of their humility that is feigned and of al their Assemblies though they multiply them while obedience and hearkening to his voyce in the conscience is not regarded Therefore turn ye turn ye to the true light that with it you may see your selves and from that sight receive the sentence of death upon your selves that you may not trust in your selves but in the living God that so every one of you may know by experience that by grace you are saved not of your selves but by the free gift and this free gift may lead and guide you in all your Worship that so self may have no share in it but every one of you may be justified before the Lord both in your sayings and doings that you may be able to endure sound Doctrine which searches the heart and tryes the reins and keeps low waiting for the fulfilling of the promise viz. That all the people of the Lord shall be taught of the Lord may not heap up teachers to your selves to please the itching ear And what thou meetest with in this discourse that may seem sharp or piercing take it as the smiting of a friend not given to hurt the life but to wound that nature and birth which must not be heir with the free-born but must be cast out or else to the Inheritance of the Saints in light thou canst not come nor into the holy City thou canst not enter which hath been trodden under foot though thou may dwell in the outward courts for that must be given to the Gentiles Therefore hast hast hast and come out least being partaker of the sin thou be partaker of the plague also and meet the Lord while he is nigh and call upon him while he may be found least the door be shut and there be no entrance for thee JAMES POPE HAving seen a Paper with thy name subscribed to it in answer to a Paper of Thomas Whites directed to the People called Baptists which thou calls A Plea for Truth in love to Truth which Title agreeth not with thy Book if thou intendest the writing following thy Title Page and so on to the end of the Book For in the third line of thy Book I finde a saying which is none of Truths Plea which is the cause and inducement that moved thee to write thy following discourse in these words It hath moved me to write this following answer because none else that thou knowest of hath done it What thou meanest by it hath moved thee I do not understand because thou hast given two Reasons of thy writing of thy Book one is because thou sayest thou art one of those people to whom Tho. White directed his Paper and thy second Reason seems to be because thou hadst two of those Papers given to thee and then saith It hath moved thee to write this following Answer c. This savors more of the voice of a stranger then to be Truths Plea If by it thou intendest the Spirit of God why didst thou not name it Or dost thou question its Authority as not being sufficient of it self without some other motive or dost thou not intend that at all as not believing it necessary to such a work or as not being thy rule to walk by or wast thou when thou began to write thy Book as one surprized with fear speaking that which thou understood not thy self and so let it pass as hoping it might meet with the same acceptance from the Reader being cloathed with this beautiful Title of A Plea for truth in love to Truth and then begins thy Book thus Forasmuch as I am one of those people to whom Thomas White hath directed his Paper and having two of those Papers given to me it hath moved me to write this following Answer because none else that I know of hath done it James Pope I may justly suspect to find more of thy Pleas to be none of Truths neither come they from Truth nor tend they to the Honour of Truth onely thou makes use of the Name Truth as a
which is drink indeed are nourished up to Eternal life so that while some do eat and drink in that Ordinance unworthily and so eat and drink damnation others by faith feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and so are nourished up to Eternal life Answ Is there any thing in the fore-cited place that directs to the use of that which thou cals an Ordinance surely in this thy zeal out-runs thy understanding seeing those be the words of the fore-cited place viz. for as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup shew ye the Lords death till he come for so it is on the Margent shew ye what is here of direction in these words as to the use of an Ordinance as thou sayest let the wise in heart judge but doth not the Apostles words asmuch if not more signifie to the Corinthians that they might forbear their eating and drinking in that wise as they did eat and drink and their unworthiness was in not discerning of the Lords body and for that cause was many sick and weak c. and for that disorder which was amongst many the Apostle reproves them as for their greediness and drunkenness the like and exhorts them to eat at home in their own houses but he never calls it an Ordinance to be ministred once a Moneth or once a week and that alwayes by some men or man appointed by the rest in their wills and wayes some to buy wine and bread and others to break it and deliver to the rest but Christ did not do so for in the same night in which he was betrayed he took bread and when he had given thanks he brake it and said take eat this is my body this do in remembrance of me after the same manner also he took the cup when he had Supped and did he bid you do so or do you do so after Supper or can you give thanks as he did or do you know what he said when he gave thanks or do you imitate him in saying his very words in one thing viz. this is my body and do you speak your own words in other things as when you give thanks or do you take a piece of bread and a cup of wine and say nothing at all but eat and drink and if you do it not in the same manner which he did it in is it then his Ordinance or your invention seeing Gods Ordinances must be kept as they were delivered and observed as he commanded them otherwise they are none of his and if not his then but a likeness and if a likeness then that which God hath forbidden and so is Idolatry and he an Idolator that so worships and in that state cannot enter into the Kingdom of God And whereas thou sayest some might eat this bread and drink this cup which is also called flesh and blood unworthily Take heed James of calling a lie a plea for truth in love to truth remember the Title of thy book where is that bread and that cup which a man may eat unworthily called flesh and blood as thou positively affirms in thy query it is surely thou discerns not Christs body for if thou did thou wouldst learn to speak truth are not these the words of the Apostle that thou intendst viz. wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord but where is it called flesh and blood surely this is a gross errour of thine not onely to call the outward bread the outward cup which an unworthy and wicked man may eat and drink flesh and blood and if flesh and blood whose flesh and blood is it not Christs flesh and Christs blood and can an unworthy man and woman eat and drink that surely no if Christs words be true and I must believe him before thee James and he saith John 6.54 whosoever eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath Eternal life how sayest thou then in thy query some might eat this bread and drink this cup which thou sayest is also called flesh and blood unworthily but where is the bread the cup which some may eat and drink unworthily called flesh and blood take heed of slandering the Scripture And then thou drawest up thy query into a short conclusion in these words viz. so that while some do eat and drink in that Ordinance unworthily and so eat and drink damnation other by faith feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and so are nourished up to Eternal life and herein thou hast made a good confession that while some in that which thou calls an Ordinance eat and drink damnation others who live by faith and feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and are not that which thou calls an Ordinance and yet are nourished up to Eternal life and so of what thou hast spoken this is the sum that some in that Ordinance eat and drink damnation and others out of it feed upon the living bread that comes down from heaven and have Eternal life abiding in them Q. 7. Whether those that deny Church fellowship do not forsake their own mercies seeing Gods children have found by sweet experience that it is of singular use for their building upon their most holy faith it being the place of Christs promised presence where he hath commanded the blessing and life for evermore Answ Those that deny that Church that is in God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Thes 1. and that fellowship that is in the light as he is in the light 1 John â— denyes the true Church-fellowship and forsakes their own mercies and that light in which alone all the Saints ever had all their sweet experiences given them of Gods love and tender mercy to them and in that who ever walked and continued in it built up one another in their most holy faith that being the place of Christs promised presence for there he dwells for ever and out of his light none can meet with him or know him and out of that is the false Church and Church-fellowship and Christian outward and baptism outward that onely washes away the filth of the flesh but knows not the answer of a good conscience by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ for from the true light was and is the false Church and fellowship for they went out from us saith the Apostle who had his fellowship in the light Q. 8. Whether they may not most truely be said to live above Ordinances that faithfully wait upon and live to Christ in the use of them Answ They that wait upon and live to Christ in the use of Ordinances cannot be said to live above them for that which God hath appointed and Ordained as the way to Eternal life and happiness none may live above it for the the way and the life are one and he that is in the way is in the truth and in the life also