silent A. Wel wil yow lay your hand on the Bible and take an oath B. I vse to ioyne no creatures to the name of God in an oath A Neither shal yow this is but a custome commanded by law B. The law ought not to commannd a wicked custome A Why is it not lawful to lay your hand on a book B. Yes but not in an oath A. Wil yow lay your hand in my hand and sweare B. No. A. Wil yow lay your hand on y e table and sweare B. No. A. Wil yow hold vp your hand towards heauen and sweare B. That is not amisse but I wil vse my libertie A. Why yow hold it lawful to lay your hand on the table and sweare B. Yea so it be not commanded and made of necessitie A. Why the booke is y â— like it is nothing of the oath but a thing indifferent B. If it be nothing of the othe why doe yow so peremptorilie inioyne it and if it be indifferent as yow say it is then doe I wel in not vsing it A. Nay yow doe not wel in refusing it for therin yow shew yowr self disobedient to the higher powers set over yow by God B. Euen now yow said it was a thing indifferent if it be so ther is no power can bring me in bondage to my libertie A. Where finde yow that B. In S Paul 1. Cor. The Arch B. Archd. D r. Cussins al denied it I affirmed it a litle testament in greek and latine was brought me and a Bible I looked foe the place but could not finde it great sault was in my memorie ffor I looked in the 10. chapter neither â—â—deed could I bethinke me where to finde it they so interrupted me A. Your deâ—initie is like yowr law B. The word of God is not the worse for my il memorie A. Yow speak not as yow thinck for yow are prowd B. I haue smal cause to be prowd of my memorie yow see y t default of it but the Apostle saith it Againe they al denyed it Yow then haue no cause to condemne my memorie seing yow al haue vtterly forgotten this sayeng Then repeated I the words Al thinges are lawful for me but I wil not be brought in bondage to my libertie Then they recited Rom. 14. and 1. Corint 8. al thinges are lawful for me but al thinges are not expedient I said I meant not that place A. I would like it wel if yow cited your place in Greek or Latine B. Why yow vnderstand English is not the word of God in English Then Cussin began to speak of indefinita propositio but whervpon I can not cal to remembranc â— I told him we were now about the new Testament it might be if he had asked me that question when I knew him in Cambridge I should then haue answered him he forthwith called to remembrance of what howse I was A. Were yow then of Cambridge B. Yea I knew yow there He said he was there before I was borne I said it might be Then he entred into discourse of his antiquititie Then he asked me if I had read books as Calvin Beza etc I answered that I had read more then ynough But yet I know not why I am emprisoned A. It is reported that yow come not to church are disobedeent to her maiestie and say that ther is not a true church in England what say yow haue yow at any time said thus B. These are reportes when yow produce yowr testimonie I wil answer A. But I wil better beleeue yow vpon yowr oath then them how say yow wil yow sweare B. I wil know what I sweare to before I sweare A. ffirst sweare and then if any thing be vnlawfully demaunded yow shal not answer B. I haue not learned so to sweare I wil first know and consider of the matter before I take an oath Thus many thinges being alleaged to and fro by vs the Arch B. commaunded Cussin to recorde that I refused to sweare vpon a book B. pea and set downe also that I wil not sweare thus at randon but first I wil know and consider of the thinges I sweare vnto whither they require an oath A Wel when were yow at church B. That is nothing to yow A. Yow are a scismatick a recusant a seditious person etc. with many such like B. Say what yow list of me I freelie forgiue yow A. I care not for yowr forgiuenes B. But if yow offend me yow ought to seek it while yow are in the way with me A. When were yow at church B. I haue answered that in an other place it belongeth not to yow A. Why are yow indited B. I am A. Yet belongeth it to ys I wil not onely medle with yow but arraigne yow as an heretick before me B. Yow 〈…〉 no more then God â—â—â— Erre I may but hereticke wil I never be A. Wil yow come to church hereafter B. ffuture thinges are in the Lords handes if I doe not yow haue a law A. Haue yow spoken these wordes of the church of England B. When yow produce your witnesse I wil answer A. But vpon your oath I wil beleeue yow B. But I wil not accuse my self Then began he againe to charge me with scisme sedition heresâ—e B. Yow are lawlesse I had rather yow produced yowr witnesse A. Of what occupation are yow B. A christian A. So are we al. B. I deny that A. But are yow a minister B. No. A. A scholemaister B. No. A. What then of no trade of life B. In your letter yow know my trade in the superscription A Yow are then a gentleman B. After the manner of our countrie a gentleman A. Serue yow any man B. No I am Gods freeman A. Haue yow landes B. No nor fees A. How liue yow B. By Gods goodnes and my freinds A. Haue yow a father aliue B. Yea. A. Wher dwelleth he in Norffolke B. Yea. A. Wher dwel yow in London B. No. A. Wel can yow finde sufficient suretie for your good behaviour B. Yea as sufficient as yow can take A. What yow cannot haue the Queene B. Neither can yow take her she is the iudge of her law yet for my good behauiour I suppose I could get her word A. Doth she know yow then B. I know her A. Els were it pitie of your life B. Not so A. Can yow haue any of these that came with yow to be bound for yow B. I know not I thinke I can A. What know yow them not B. I know one of them A. What is he B. A gentleman of Graies ynne A. What cal yow him B. Lacie A. But know yow what band yow should enter yow are bound hereby to frequent our churches B. I vnderstand yow of my good behauiour A. And in it is this conteyned and so yow had forseyted your band at the first B. Wel now I know yowr minde I wil enter no such bande A Then I wil send yow to prison Then
not an oath ther must great regard and reuerence be vsed in an oath and an oath for confirmation ought to be the ende of al strife My Lo. if I should erre and deliuer it vpon mine oath for truth it were a double sinne likewise if I should eyther not know not remember or not vtter the whole truth I were by such a rash oath forsworne But by Gods grace I wil answer nothing but the truth Cant. A Christian mans word ought to be as true as his oath we wil proceed with yow without your oath and taking a paper of Interr in his hand said what say yow to this Is it lawful to say the Pater noster publickly in the church or priuatly as a prayer or no B. I know not what yow meane by your Pater noster vnlesse peradventure that forme for prayer which our sauiour Christ taught his disciples commonly called the Lordes prayer Cant. I so meane Then commanded he the first question to be thus written Quest 1. Whither he thinketh the Lordes prayer may publickly in the Church or privatly be vsed as a prayer or no When I had expressed my minde the Arch B. commaunded it should be recorded but I desired the judges that I might with my owne hande write my owne answers which was graunted me My answer then to the first question was Ans It is to be vsed to that ende for which it was giuen by our sauiour Christ to his disciples as a sununarie ground-worke or foundation of al faithful prayers wherby to instruct and assure their conscieÌ„ces that their petitions are according to the wil and glory of God But that these prescript wordes are iâ—ioâ—ned or that Christ 〈…〉 in the scripture Moreouer I see not how it can be vsed as a prayer seing that our particuler wantes and present occasions and necessitieâ— are not therin expressed And therfore I thinke it not to be vsed as a prayer Heere the Arch B. cried out for breuitie and would not suffer me to answer any more questions at large Quest 2. Wither he thinketh that any Leitourgies or prescript formes of prayer may be imposed vpon the church and whither al read and stinted prayers be mere babling in Gods sight Ans I finde in the worde of God 〈◊〉 such authoritie giuen to any man neither such stinted leitourgies prescribed or vsed in the primitiue churches and therfore hold it high presumtion to impose any one deuised Apocrypha praier vpon the church Q. 3. Whither he thinketh that the common praiers commaunded by the publick authoritie of this land be idolatrous superstitious and popish A. I thinke that this book of common prayer publickly inioyned and receiued in the assemblies of this lande is wel nigh altogither idolatrous superstitious and popish Q. 4. Whither he thinketh that the Sacraments which are publikly administred in the church of England be true Sacramentes or no A. I thinke that the SacrameÌ„tes as they are ministred in these publike assemblies are not true Sacramentes and seale not the fauour and blessing of God vnto them Q. 5. Whither he thinketh that the lawes and gouerment of the church of England now by authoritie established be vnlawful and Antichristian or no A. Because the lawes decrees and canons of your church are so many and infinite I can not iudge of them al because I know not al but this I say that many of them as also your Ecclesiastical courtes and gouernours are vnlawful and Antichristian Q. 6. Whither he thinketh that such as haue bene baptised in the church of England since Queene Elisabethes reigne haue bene rightly baptised or ought to be baptised againe A. I thinke as before of yowr Sacramentes that they haue not bene rightly baptised according to the institution of Christ Yet that they need not neither ought to be baptised againe I doubt least the Arch B. hearing my answer of rebaptising caused it to be left out of the question and my answer taking that which might best serue their owne turne to bring vs into suspicion of error and hatred Herevnto many speeches arising of the true and false Sacramentes ministerie gouerment as also of the true and false church I shewed that the false church had also her Sacramentes ministery gouerment though not aright Then Judge Anderson caused this question to be moued to me Q 7. Whither the church of England as it standeth now established be the true established church of Christ and whither the people therin be the true and faithful people of God or no. A. I thinke that these parish assemblies as they stand generally in England are not the true established churches of Christ and that the people as they now stand in this disorder and confusion in them are not to be held the true and faithful people of Christ Here the Judge Anderson took exception as the B. of Lond. also at these wordes parish assemblies I answered the Judge that I could not for some weightie respectes spare him that word for I doubted not but that the Lord had many pretious and elect vessels among them whom he wil in his good time cal forth whom it became not me absolutely to iudge least I should enter into Gods seat Yet I could not in the meane time whiles they stand members of these assemblies count them faithful To the B. I said that when they should better consider of mine answer they should haue lesse cause to finde fault Much trouble we had before we could agree of the state and wordes of their questions with putting out and changing which discourses it is not my purpose here to set downe so much as the questions and answers agreed vpon and recorded although 〈◊〉 some causes knowne to my selfe and to some of their consciences which may hereafter be knowne to al the world I thought it not imperâ—â—nent to insert this Q 8. Whither he thinketh the Queenes maiestie be supreme gouernour of the church and whither she may maâ—e lawes for the church which are not contrary to the word of God or no A. I thinke the Queenes maiestie svpreme gouernour of the whole land and ouer the church also bodies and goods but I thinke that no Prince neither the whole world neither the chvrch it self may make any lawes for the church other then Christ hath already left in his worde Yet I thinke it the dutie of euery Christian and principally of the Prince to enquire out and reâ—â—e the lawes of God and stir vp al their subiectes to more diligent and careful keeping of the same Aâ— we had much a doe to come to the state of this question so the 〈◊〉 shewed themselues euil satisfied with my answer and said that the Papistes dealt more simply then I did and surely they very greevouslie interrupted me with slanders euil speeches and blasphemes during the time of my writing these answers especially the B of Lond. so that I was euen inforced sometime to turne vnto him and shew him of his shamelesse vntruthes and
3. Neither worship yow God aright but after an jdolatrous and superstitious maÌ„ner 4. and your church is not gouerned by Christes Testament but by the Romish courtes and canons etc. L. Tr. Here is matter ynough in deed I perceiue thow takest delight to be an author of this new religion The L. Chanc. said he neuer heard such stuffe before in al his life B. As I was about to shew that neither I was an author of this religioÌ„ and that it was not new as they supposed the B. of Lo. interrupted me and asked me wherin their worship was jdolatrous The L. Treas also demaunded the same question B. Ther is nothing els in that book of your common prayer being demaunded some particulers I shewed that their saintes daies eues fastes idol feastes etc. Lond. Stay there why is it not lawful to keep a memorial of the Saintes in the church B. Not after your manner it is jdolarrie Lond. How proue now that B. By the 1. commaundement Lond. Why that is thow shalt haue no other Gods but me What of that B. The word is Thow shalt haue no other Gods before mâ— face We are therfore forbidden to giue any part of Gods worship to any creature Lond. Why neither doe we B. Yes yow celebrate a day and sanctifie an eaue and cal them by their names yow make a feast and deuise a worship vnto them L. Tr. Why may we not cal the day after their names is not that in our libertie B. No my Lord. L. Tr. How proue yow that B In the beginning of the booke it is written that God himselfe named al the dayes the first the second etc. L. Tr. Why then we may not cal them Sunday Monday etc. B. We are otherwise taught to cal them in the booke of God L. Tr. Why thow they selfe callest it the Lordes day B. And so the holy Ghost calleth it in the â— of the Reuelation Lond. We haue nothing in our saintes dayes but that which is taken forth of the Scriptures B. In that yow say true for yow finde no Saintes dayes in the Scriptures Lond. We finde their Histories and deedes in the Scripture B. But not their dayes and festiuals in the Scripture The Lo. Buckh. then said I was a proud spirit The L. Treas said I had a hotte braine and taking into his hande a book of common prayer which lay on the boord read certaine of the collectes for the Sainte◠〈…〉 Scripture and asked me what I could 〈…〉 therin B. I mislike al for we ought not so to vse Scriptures or prayers Lond. May we not make commemoration of the saintes fiues in the church B. Not after yowr manner to giue peculier dayes eues fastes worship feastes vnto them L. Tr. But what is there jdolatrous B. Al for we ought not so to vse the Scriptures Lond. What not in commemoration of the Saintes B. As I haue said not after yowr manner L. Tr. But what is euil here B. All my Lo. for by abusing the Scripture we may make it an jdol The circumstantes make euil thinges of themselues good as in the massâ—â—ook from whence this stuffe is fetched there are sundry good collectes and places of scripture which their superstitious abuse make abhominable and euil Likewise coniurers make many good prayers which the circumstances also make euil Here the Lo. Buckh. said I was out of my wittes B. No my Lo. I speak the wordes of sobernes and truth as I could make plaine if I might be suffered L. Tr. Here we pray that our liues may be such as theirs was void of couetousnes B. So ought we to doe and not to reade or haue any parte of the scripture without fruite and to follow and flee that which we finde praised and discommended in them yet ought we not to vse the scriptures in this manner to dayes and times neither to be thus restreyned or stinted in our prayers as to be tied to this forme of wordes place time manner kneele stand etc. L. Buckh. This fellow delighteth to heare himselfe speake The L. Chanc. also spake some what at that time which I cannot cal to remembrance as yet Then the Arch B. also spake many thinges against me of smal effect which I haue also forgotten onely this I remember he said I was strower of errors and that therfore he committed me B. In deed yow committed me halfe a yeare close prisoner in the Gatehowse and I neuer vntil now vnderstood the cause why neither as yet know I what errors they be shew them therfore I pray yow The L. Buckh. againe said I was a presumtuous spirit B. My Lo. al spirits must be tried and iudged by the word of God but if I erre my Lo. it is meet I should be shewed wherin L. Chanc. Ther must be streighter lawes made for such fellowes B. Would to God ther were my Lo. our iourny should be the shorter L. Tr. Yow complained to vs of iniustice wherin haue yow wrong B. My Lo. in that we are thus imprisoned without due trial L. Tr. Why yow said yow were condemned vpon the statute B Vniustly my Lo. that statute was not made for vs. L. Tr. Ther must be streighter lawes made for yow B. O my Lo. speak more comfortablie we haue sorrowes ynough L. Tr. In deed thow lookest as if thow hadst a troubled conscience B. No I praise God for it but 〈…〉 wen against her faithful subiectes The L. Tr. answered that the Queenes sword was not as yet drawen against vs. Then in a word or two I complayning of the misery and lingring close imprisonment which we suffer the L. Tr demaunded if we had had no conference The B. of Lond. answered that sundrie had bene with vs as D. Some Grauiat and others but we mocked them that came vnto vs. B. That is not true the Lord knoweth we mock no creature Neither doe I know or haue euer seene to my remembrance that Grauiat yow speak of But miserable phisitians are yow al for M r. Some he indeed was with me but neuer would enter disputation he said he came not therefore but in reasoning manner to know some what of my minde more cleerly Some was then by the Arch B. called and demaunded whither we had conference or no Some shewed how that at our last conference before S r. A. G. ther arose a question betwirt vs whither the Prince might make a positiue law de rebus meâ—ijs of thinges indifferent I denying it he asked me whither she migt make a statute for the reforming excesse of apparel I graunted that she might He then said it was a doctrine of Divils to forbid meate by a positiue law he shewed me then that the Princes law did not binde the conscience and that ther is a difference betwirt forum ciuile and forum conscientiae Some to this effect M r. Young then vncalled came and accused me of vnreuerend speeches vsed against his Lords grace at my first conference with
in the church of EnglaÌ„d P. Her lawes haue I graunt of ouersight as taking them for the right offices and order which appertaine vnto the church of Christ the which because we euidently see that they are not therfore flie we vnto her former promise and act wherby she graunteth vs the inioping of al the privileges of the church of Christ F. Why then goe ye about to pul downe Bps P. Alas far be it from vs that euer we should entend any such actions we onely put her maiestie and the state in mind of the wrath of God that is likely to come vpon this land for the vpholding of many Romish inveÌ„tions We labor to saue our owne sowles and al those that wil be warned by vs in avoiding al corruptions in religion and practising the whole wil of our God as neere as we can Further then this we haue no caling to goe and therfore dare not so much as once in thought conceiue of any thing that we should doe in the altering or pulling downe of any thing established by her lawes F. Why then meet yow in woods and such suspicious and secret places if yow purpose no insurrection for the pulling downe of Bps P. I haue told yow the reason before our meetings are for the pure and true worship of God and ther is not so much as a word or thought of Bps. in our assemblies except it be in praying for them that the Lord would shew mercy and favour vnto them which we wish as to our owne sowles Our meetings are secret as I told yow because we cannot without disturbance haue them more open Our earnest desire and prayer vnto our God and our gouernours is that we might haue them open and not be inforced to withdraw our selues from the sight of any creature Of the Lordes pure worship in the congregation of his people are we bound to be partakers and that in woods in mountaines in caues etc. as I told yow rather then not at al. F. Then yow are privy vnto no practise or intent of any sedition or commotion against her maiestie and the state for the pulling downe of Bps P. No I thanke God nor euer was and I protest before heauen and earth that if I were I would disclose and withstand the same to the vttermost of mineabilitie in al persons of what religion soeuer they were Young But what meant yow Penry when yow told me at my howse that I should liue to see theday wherin ther should not be a Lo. Bp. left in England P. Yow doe me great iniury Sr. but I am content to beare it This was it that I said vnto yow namely that I gainsaid nothing in this whole cause but what I could proue out of the word of God to be the remnants of the popish Antichristian kingdome which religion I said the Lord hath promised vtterly to ouerthrow and consume in so much as yow said I may liue though yow be already of great yeares for my self I may be cut of by vntimely death to see al the offices calings works and livings deriued from or belonging at any time vnto the kingdome of Antichrist vtterly ouerthroweÌ„ in this land for the Lo. hath promised that that man of sin that body of the AntichristiaÌ„ religion shalbe so consumed by the breath of his mouth and the brightnes of his appearing in the power of his gospel before his second coming 2. Thes 2. as that false synagogue shal haue no power in any of her officers or partes either to be lifted vp ouer the 〈…〉 of God viz ouer any thing that is caled holy or yet to oppose her self as a bloody adversarie vnto those truthes and servants of Christ who refuse to be in spiritual boÌ„dage and slauery to her This I shewed yow to be verified in the type Babylon of the Chaldeans according to the word of the Lo. spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah and the casting of the stone into Euphrates by Sheraiah at Jeremies commandement Isa 13. 19. 20. Jer. 50. 40. and 51. 61. 64. and this I shewed to be decreed by the Lo. of hostes against the true body the Antichristian Babel vnder the new testament for so we are taught by the spirit of God that she shalbe consumed and be no more that her chapmen shal in this life bewaile and the saincts of God reioyce at her vtter ouer throw and at the spoile and decay of her merchandise Reuelat. 18. The comparing of the act done by Sheraiah against the type and what followed thervpon with that of the Angel against the true Babylon I declared most fully to confirme my speech for Sheraiah throwing the stone into Euphrates said thus shal Babel be drowned and rise no more and so it came to passe the Angel in the Reuel casting the great stone into the sea saith with such violeÌ„ce shal the great city BabyloÌ„ be cast and shalbe found no more and so it wilbe accomplished I am sure This was my speech vnto yow Mr. Young and I beseech yow yea and charge yow as yow shal answer in that great day not to misreport my speeches but to relate them as they are vttered by me Y. I conceiued some great matter of your speech I tel yow P. Yow did me the greater wrong therin I pray yow hereafter to conceiue of my wordes according to my meaning and their natural signification F. Yow say that these offices and livings derived in your conceit from the body of Antichrist shalbe ouerthroweÌ„ by the Lord we would know how yow meane that this wilbe accomplished P. I haue already shewed yow that this worke shalbe done by the appearing of Jesus Chr. in the shining brightnes of his gospel through the efficacie wherof the Lord shal so lay theÌ„ open as he wil put into the hartes of Princes and states wher in they are now mainteined to abolish their offices calings and works vtterly from among men and to imploy their livings vnto the holy civil vses of the Princes and states wherin they are After this sort did the Lord consume the Popes primacie office and maintenance which he had in this land and after this maner did he consume by his gospel the Cardinals Priors Abbots Moncks Friers and Nunnes out of this laÌ„d and after this or some other way seeming best to his wisedome shal he I doubt not â—oÌ„sume the rest of that body of miquitie now remayning where soeuer The worke I am assured shalbe accomplished because the Lo. hath said it in his written word the maner how or the time when it shalbe performed I leaue to him who ruleth al thinges according to the counsel of his owne wil and whose wayes and iudgements are past finding out F. and Y. What yow doe or purpose to doe in these your assemblies we cannot tel but this is sure that the Papists seeme to be so incouraged by tijis dealing of yours that ther were neuer so many of them in this land since her maiesties reigne as are at