but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
destroyer thereof and thus doe these Opponents the life of our Church and all the members thereof is made and vnited together into one body by the Articles of her faith he then that overthrowes and destroyes those Articles discipates and haleth in peeces her whole body and being and thus doe these Opponents in their deed in question Punishment is due vnto them so much J hope J may say without offence vnto your high and honourable authority because the thing it selfe is so apparent Very reason it selfe doth tell vs The subversion of every being that is good makes guilty of punishment Now the deed in question being a subversion of the faith of our Church of England by the same rule must needs likewise make so guilty The degree of this punishment J dare not name J may not thinke vpon seeing the cause now in hand is presented before your sacred Tribunall whose office it is to discerne determine and adiudge the same Yet with all submission J craue a word or two of that matter If any vnder the command of Rome should oppose the very words of the Trent Councell especially where the thing is decreed explorately so as no question can bee made of her sense meaning such a one J say should bee held worthy of no small punishment and we certainly know it because such persons are pronounced accursed by that Councell pursued with fire and all extremity as perpetuall experience doth shew If these Opponents lived in that Church should defend this sentence The office of judging the sense meaning of the Scriptures belongs not to the Church we might easily guesse at their punishment Jf then hat Church esteemeth such opposition vnto her faith to demerit so highly how can we esteeme to deserue but little seeing what their faith is to them the same our faith is to vs but with this difference their faith is erronious so is not ours as the ensuing discourse will evidently shew how much then an opposition to an erronious faith is lesse hurtfull then an opposition to a true faith so much more punishment doto be deserue that opposeth ours more then he that opposeth theirs thus much is all wherewith I will trouble you touching the deed in question Now J hope J may also without reproofe shew some other reason whereupon to moue you If this deed be let passe without controle see what will follow 1. Our enemies of the Romish Church will triumph over vs and thus they will argue With you is not the true Church for where that is there is vnity and a meanes of vnity in all matters of faith but these are not with you for see your Church beleeveth that the Romish Church hath not the nature of the true Church yet two of yours yea after their subscription doe out face her with the contradictory carry it away when they haue done no man sayes black is their eye 2. The salvation of the vnstable vnwise will be really hindred such a man will say vnto our Church if you taught mee the way to life doubtlesse you would agree in it or suppresse the gainsayers seeing therefore you doe neither the one nor the other wee must conclude that the way to life is not with you consequently it is no where for in your iudgement the Romish Church hath it not or at least men of good parts might say if you agree not vpon the way to heaven then 't is hopelesse for vs to finde it because with you are the aged in yeeres great in experience abundant in learning considerate in resolving in the office of governing if our hopes to finde heaven be vaine idle why shall we bestow our paines that wayes who would labour without profit who would lay out his silver to fill his belly with the East winde Surely no man wherefore here is our rest seeing there is no profit in the service of God we will determine with our selves say We care not for the knowledge of the most high let vs cast his lawes behind our back let vs eate and drink for to morrow wee shall die 3. The glory of our Church at least is abated nay I may truly say her beauty is stayned with an eye-sore too vgly to be looked vpon He that casteth dirt in his Mothers face wherein nothing is wanting for feature or complexion shall haue little thankes for his labour what then shall bee bee accounted that scratcheth her till shee bleedes Nay more that pulleth off treadeth vnder foote all the ornaments of her countenance If our Opponents gaue the lye to a man of honest reputation hee should disgrace him not a little but if hee charged him with that lye to the losse of his credit for ever we know he should burt him finally for ever But thus J say if no better then on this manner deale these Opponents with their Mother the Church of England shee hath determined what must bee held in certaine points of religion in that her countenance exceeds in beauty because she did so determine for the avoiding of contention and setling of Peace Peace yea Peace that visage of Peace the most louely delightfull and acceptable countenance of all countenances yet beholde cease not to wonder our two Opponents will not keepe this peace they haue broken downe the walls of that fortresse what shee intended for vnity concord they divert to fraction and discord so haue robbed her of her goodly beautious feature complexion Nay which is more they haue given her that lye which will stick to her ribbs for ever without the exemplary punishment of these offendours for if she be false in her greatest children for learning gravity wisedome piety all met together when they gaue that witnesse then who will trust her for if her word can be true at any time it would be true then Now those each one of them are so inconvenient that J conceiue they must be esteem'd so intollerable if that be so wee haue good reason to bemoane our selues vnto you seeke for redresse at your hands Can wee imagine that our Church and the soules of her children onely shall bee losers by this deed in question Surely no man can bee so much mistaken for marke if they scape with this deed who will not thus argue If Opposers in matters of faith bee not reck ned offedours then Opposers in matters of State must be held innocent seeing the first is of more dangerous consequence then the second If wee may oppose the State who vvill obey seeing liberty is better fancied then subiection Jf vvee are freed from obedience then farevvell government seeing to governe to obey are such relatiues as doe stand fall together If then governing obeying be taken avvay all things come to confusion As then vvee vvill a void destruction to our Church Common-vvealth so must vve open our selues before you eraue your
assistance Hither to I haue opened our cause the reason of our request it remaineth as some men vvould conceiue that I moue you also to the manner vvherein to proceed in the cause but I altogether decline that such assurance haue I of the abundant wisdome iudgement learning providence vvhich dvvelleth amongst you that in my selfe I blush to thinke of that deed Some perhaps would incourage mee to provoke you to redresse this evill by force of Argument but that pleaseth me as little because I know the trueth of God remaineth with you therewithall the loue of the trueth so as you cannot be negligent in this businesse seeing the loue of the trueth causeth such as haue it to doe nothing against the trueth but for it I am assured the voice of Christ when he comes to Iudge the world does perpetually sound in your eares even as if by liuely personall voice you heard him say Thou good Steward and faithfull thou hast beene faithfull in a little I will make thee Ruler over much enter into your Masters joy Shall I tell you no hindrance lyeth in your way that may discourage you from this worke No no that is altogether needlesse Wherefore J haue no more to say but in the words of God himselfe Goe on in this thy strength thou mighty man for God is with you And we for our parts doe liue in a ioyfull expectation of a good a happy issue because we know God is the authour of trueth and his eye lids preserue pure knowledge at whose arising all his enemies even the maintainers of errour shall be scattered And you most graue honourable Senatours are worthy watchfull provident instruments vnto his sacred Maiesty our dread Soveraigne in procuring the welfare of all the true members of this our English Church Common-wealth among which members I rest To your Worthinesse an humble suppliant not the least devoted THOMAS SPENCER A PREFACE TO THE FOLLOWING DISCOVRSE answering vnto some points which concerne the matter in Common REader I am compelled to make a Preface to the following disputation by a double law The one is perpetuall custome vsed in this case from which I may not vary the other is the matter it selfe some things in our present Opponents are transcendent and belong vnto the whole matter in such an vniverse and common manner that I could not answere them in any one particular passage yet it behooved me to giue thee satisfaction in them Our present Opponents doe seeme to triumph as if the cause in question were cleerly theirs so as even we our selves at the first sight might seeme vnreasonable if we thought not so too They leade vs with huge mountaines of contumelious reproaches and in conclusion they esteem vs no better then to be Either laught out or despised So as they account Their depracation and defence a thing condiscended vnto in courtesie for themselues they haue another note Instructers they are and their Treatises are to giue Instruction If you will know the reason why they tell vs also In them There is a spirit and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them vnderstanding Wherefore they dare and doe provoke even Cato himselfe to come in and see and censure what they haue written and done If you desire to know why they challenge to themselues these high prerogatiues as belonging onely vnto them they will not let you bee ignorant Great men say they are not alwayes wise neither doe the aged vnderstand Iudgement therefore I said bearken to mee Which reason is vtterly naught vnlesse all are fooles but themselues Wise men doe vse both their eares and I hope thou wilt doe so too especially in a cause of this high nature and consequence If thou wilt doe so indeed I dare assure thee that thou shalt finde that they haue not vttered one true word to their profit or our hurt for the matter it selfe I must referre thee to the body of the disputation for things common thereunto I will in this Preface performe my promise and I will begin with the matter that concernes our selues We defend the faith of our Church subscribed vnto by all ours yea even by these our present Opponents and will they laugh vs out and aespise vs for that Is it their curtesie to deprecâ—te and defend themselues against her We propound the question in her termes and in a single simple or categoricall Proposition We explicate the termes of that question in the words wherein our Church hath done it before vs and whereto these our Opponents doe consent and agree We conclude that question in the same full syllogisme wherein our Church hath concluded it and not varied come short or exceeded any one of her words We further proue every part of that Argument that is or may be questioned by the expresse word of God or by a necessary application of the expresse word of God We defend that Argument of hers against all opposers and finally we reduce every Argument brought against her into true forme and shew what part we deny and giue the reason of such deniall and that in true forme of art and must we needs be laught out and despised for tâ—aâ— If they say wee must be laughed out and despised for any thing it must be for these for herin consisteth our greatest folly If they will haue vs laughed out for these then I leaue thee good Reader to be Iudge betweene vs if thou wilt say he is a foole that does thus Theirs be the day for this time because we now want fit opportunity to defend our selues against them All this while we haue concealed the maine matter which they bring against vs We write divirity without rethorick and that is in vs either madnes or impudency But whether will they laugh vs out or dispose vs for this wee know not their mind as yet Is our stile horrid and harsh Is it not quaint and neate enough for our Opponents pallet Can we not delight their eares with iiggs and tricks of wit Surely then we are content to be laughed out or despised by our Opponents for that 's their owne case the one confesseth his stile to be such and the stile of the other is so indeed Moreouer these Opponents and our selues may ioy so to be vsed because all the schoole-men that haue liued in the world ioyne with vs and goe hand in hand with vs the busines We deale against persons better then our selues and therefore we want maners and consequently we must be laughed out and despised for that But is this true Doe we oppose our selues to mens persons or qualities and condition Nothing lesse the question on foote is an Article of faith A point in Divinity wherein the divine authority rules the case the persons and conditions of man can beare no sway nor be admitted any roome or place but for this time let the persons of men come in and their qualities honours and conditions whatsoever Yet we
with that society where he knowes the essence or nature of Christs Church is wanting seeing in such a society salvation cannot be had It is a rule case in nature No man will come to his losse and 't is as true in the state of grace no man will venture where he shall lose heaven But because we finde not this they must giue vs leaue to oppose them as enemies not receiue them as friends lest their friendship turnes to bitternesse at the last end They would persuade vs that Their opinion of the Romish Church is burtfull vnto her because therein they quit her with mercy in stead of her cruelty she condemneth vs wholly we condemne her but in part But this commends their cause but little for according to our common Proverbe Foolish pitty spoiles a whole City and this is their case Foolish is their pity because Gods word and true reason does abhorre it at least does not avow it Spoile it doth yea the whole City of God at least so farre as it is able because it opens I will not say a wicket but the widest doore to Popery and standeth also in that doore and in the high wayes like the strumpet to call in adulterous lovers as I haue already shewed but let this pitty condemne them of cruelty as for this time I am content it shall yet the Romish Church hath no hurt by it for it condemnes them of a fault in the practise of good manners wherein the nature of the Church consisteth not it meddles not with their faith wherein the Church consisteth The truth is their opinion of the Romish Church is not loue nor pitty for if it be their due because they haue indeed that essence and nature wherewith Christs Church is formed then it is Iustice which consisteth in giving every man his due If it be not their due because they want that essence or nature wherewith Christs Church is formed then it is a lye which alwayes is committed when a man pronounceth of a thing otherwise then it is in it selfe They plead That we mistake them indeed and in the thing they agree with vs because there is one truth naturall and another morall they holde the question in the first sense and we in the second but vpon advisement and a true vnderstanding of thins we say as they doe and they as we both concurring in this that the Romish Church hath the essence or being of Christs Church but defiled with heresy and idolatry The case stands not thus we vnderstand them to say The Romish Church hath that essence and nature wherewith the Church of Christ is constituted and formed And vnto this the Church of England and all her right bred children say the contradictory as shall evidently appeare in the disputation it selfe when we propound explicate and agree vpon the state of the question wherefore let not our Opponents shrowd themselues vnder our ignorant mistaking of their meaning in the present question for we shall depriue them thereof and leaue them naked vnto the wide world when we come to the place aforesaid where the Reader shall finde that we accept the question even in their owne termes and as themselues doe explicate and vnfold it wherein we doe no new thing for our Church had vsed the like explication before them as the Reader shall perceiue in the place forenamed These things being true as they are most true it was a poore shift to cast vpon vs the shamefull reproach of mistaking their meaning as if we were ignorant and could not or malicious and would not or over zealous and did not vnderstand their writing we vse to say Better a bad shift then none at all all we may answere it with the like A shamelesse shift is worse then none at all and this is the present case when all meanes faile we must be ignorant malicious or over zealous mistakers of their meaning rather then they will be seene to meane falsely their doings severeth friends asunder reconcileth not nor bring them together Hitherto we haue taken as granted that these Opponents doe maintaine a position contradictory to our Church It may be they will deny it and plead thus for themselues The Church of England saith thus The Romish Church hath not the nature of the true Church We say thus The Romish Church hath not the nature of a true Church She saith The Church we say A Church I haue not found this exception made as yet by any yet it is very needfull that I propound it and giue answere herevnto Some man perhaps will attempt his escape by it for vntruthes of this nature must creepe into the poorest corner rather then remaine without shelter If there be no differrence betweene The nature of a true Church and the nature of the true Church then both these sentences are the same and accordingly they deny what our Church doth affirme but they are the same for Christs Church howsoever it be taken and with what word soever it be donoted and set out is form'd and constituted by one and the same formall essence and being otherwise there should be two Churches of Christ specifically form'd and differenced which yet God never revealed we never haue read and no man therefore may avouch If the word A and the word The import one specificall thing then the Propositions in question are contradictorie because the same predicate is affirmed of the same subiect in the one and so denied in the other but both these words import the same thing for a perticular Church is called A Church in the common vse of men and so it is called The Church by the Apostle The Church that is in thy house Moreover though the words A Church did make a difference from the words The Church yet the predicate part of both these propositions are still the same for that difference can be no more then generall or vniuersall and perticuler which in this place makes no difference in the predicates which consisteth cheisly in the terme nature or essence and that is the same in the Church taken as a Catholick or vniuersall comprehension of all the members wherof the Church consisteth or conceiued in perticuler as it is bounded and limited within one Nation This I say the Church Catholick and the Church Nationall or O Econumicall is formed and constituted by one and the same formall essence and being they only differ materially whose propertie it is to individuate the forme materiated And sence it selfe doth teach it vs every singuler man and every distinct Nation and all men without exception haue one and the same specificall and formall being Intelligibillitie and Ellectuallitie is the same in one man in all men herin only they differ the one is a comprehension of many individuall bodies the other a comprehension of a few individuall bodies so is it with Christs Church the same thing that makes that whole societie to be Christs Church specifically and formally the very same
thing makes a Nation or a fewer number to be Christs Church specifically and formally by reason whereof when we deny The Romish Church to haue the nature of the Church we deny it to haue the nature of A Church And contrariwise when we say The Romish Church hath the nature of a true Church we giue her the nature of the true Church and thus I hope I haue prevented all men that would doubt whether these Opponents doe contradict our Church or not and haue made it manifest that they doe contradict her indeed and accordingly we haue heretofore and may hereafter rightly and iustly presume it as true and take it as certeine and thus am I well neere at an end in my answere to all their passages in common Two onely remaines I will speak breifely vnto them and then finish this matter Amongst the rest of their hard measure offered vnto vs I find one heape which may not be concealed in 15. short lines thus are we stiled Your mindes are prepossessed with preiudiced They content themselues only to take vp opinions vpon trust and will hold them because they know where they had them Whole volumes are nothing vnto them Anuiles they are in vaine should I spend my selfe in beating vpon them Christians they are not ingenuous They haue no care open for Iustice and truth Doubtlesse this Opponent meant to infer something from this rabble for a man of wisdome and learning will not speak words that serue to no purpose I conceiue he would conclude thus Therefore our adversaries cause is naught This was once Bishop Iewels case when he had to doe with rayling Harding to whom he answered thus I pray thee good Reader thinke not our cause the worse though these mens tongues are so ready to speake ill content thy selfe a while and thou shalt see all this smoake blowne away even with one blast In whose words I answer too These ignominious termes are nothing to inferr such a conclusion for evill men may speake the truth and defend a good cause Wherefore the naughtinesse of a person inferreth not badnesse vpon a cause or question The Antecedent is also false we deny our selues to be guilty as he doth charge vs he brings no proofe for his indictment and therefore we must be pronounced Rectius in Curia and so every honest man who hath his eyes in his head will say of vs for if accusation can make guilty who shall be innocent Thus these pleaders Argument is come to nothing like smoake carryed vp with the ayre But let vs reason the case with him a little Is this Authour bitter by custome Is his nature addicted to sharpnesse My selfe am not able to resolue the doubt if he be we willingly pardon the offence we must beare one anothers burthen according to the Apostles rule Nay we will pray in the words of the first Christian Martyr and say O Lord forgiue him for he knowes not what he does his passion was at this time his master but if this ill language be acted if it be taken vp to serue a turn the case is worse for him his account before Gods Tribunall is the greater and heavier but for vs the better his impatience shall commend our patience his bitternesse our meeknesse his crying in the streets our silence best it is to be like him that as a lambe dumbe before the shearer so was he and opened not his mouth And thus much is enough for this passage The last thing which comes in our way is our Opponents insulting and vaunting termes conteined in the title of of his booke and the end of his English Epistle which I haue reported in this Preface num 3. and these they are He is an Instructer His Treatise serues to giue instruction With him is the Spirit The inspiration of the Almighty giues him vnderstanding and him onely for sometimes great men want wâ—sâ—dâ—me and the aged vnderstanding and iudgement therefore you must heare him For his writings they are such as he may let Cato come in and see and censure We haue now the head but we want the tayle he presenteth vs with an Antecdent but his pocket holds the conclusion a consequent Is he wise in that Surely a wise Logician I grant for no man would doe thus but he that excells in that art But what say I Doe I commend him for Logick I doe but 't is my fault and I craue his pardon when he disputes I must extoll him for his Rethorick for with him that art is the queene of arts to serue a Disputers terme and no doubt she was his queene and he followed her lawes when he would thus extoll himselfe Doubtlesse hereby he meant to abase vs and our cause else it had beene vaine thus to elevate himselfe and we will confesse for our owne parts that we must come vnder his see and hide our selues vnder him from the weather shore if all be true that he avoucheth but I doubt of that and so must till I heare Caâ—â— his sentence for he commits the cause to him and so will we too because â—ato amongst all Philosophers is held the wisest and gravest Statesman and Law-maker therefore we will present his particular braggs and attend the sentence of Cato He appeales to Cato nay he invites yea provokes Cato to the search and censure of his writings Even he this Authour a youth as him elfe professeth and all the world knowes he is a yoncker and but a yoncker in age and stadies what will Cato say to this The excellentest of many must rise from his graue to censure the meanest of thousands Let him 〈…〉 An instructer he is but will you know what degree he beares in that office his title will tell you even nothing inferior to God himselfe for he borrowed his whole title from Psal 32 1. onely God calls his worke a Psalme this Opponent names his a treatise but one thing he comes short in that word MASCHIL in the Hebrew is written two severall waies in the one it fignifies to vnderstand or things fit to be vnderstood If it be written the second way it signifies lightnesse folly or to be mad as the learned in that tongue haue observed Thus much I baue beene informed by men of credit in that language for my selfe am wholly ignorant that way things standing thus I say if he had written that word with the Hebrew Character we should haue vnderstood his meaning we might haue knowne the full value of his stile and title of honour but because he hath not we can onely guesse at it wherefore thus we say if we take it to signifie things fit to giue vnderstanding then in this office he giues God the mate what will Cato say to this that a Youth not 30. yeares of age becomes an instructer equall to God himselfe No marvell though he dares Cato to his face seeing he dare set his foote to Gods and instruct in things divine equall to him if he
worshipped with a peculiar festiuall celebritie and divine worship yea externall also solemnly and publickly to be caryed about that it may be worshipped by the people Can. 6. 38 Water is to be mingled with wine in the Chalice that is to be offred Sess 22. Cap. 7. 39 No man that knowes himselfe to be guiltie of mortall sinne how contrite soever he seemes to himselfe to be may come to the holy Encharist without Sacramentall Confession going before Sess 13. Cap. 7. Can. 11. that is vnill he haue confessed all and every one of his mortall sinnes and also those circumstances which change the kinde of the sinne Sess 14. Cap. 5. and that to a Priestan secret Can. 6.7 40 Our Saviour Christ when hee sayd doe this in remembrance of me did institute his Apostles Priests and ordained that themselues and other Priests should offer his body and blood Sess 22 Can. 2. 41 No man vnlesse he doth Consecrate is bound by Gods Law to receiue vnder both kinds Sess 21. Cap. 1 but all such must receiue vnder one kinde only Cap. 5. 42 Wee may make satisfaction to God through Iesus Christ by temporall afflictions layd on vs by God and borne patiently by vs. Sess 14. Cap. 9. and Can. 15. 43 By the Sacrament of Pennance the grace of Instification which was lost is recovered Sess 6. Cap. 14. 44 Matrymony contracted not consummated is dissolued by the solemne profession of Religion by either partie Sess 24. Can. 6. 45 Power was given to the Apostles and their lawfull successors to remit and retaine sinnes for the reconciling of such of the faithfull as fall after Baptisme Sess 14. de sacra peniten Cap. 1. But these are Articles of the Romish faith Therefore some Articles of the Romish faith be erronious None of ours will deny either part of this Argument vnlesse he be very ill advised If any except against any branch of the Proposition let him assigne the particular and he shall see by our answeres and arguments that it agrees not with Gods word and therefore it is erronious If it be answered some of theirs doe not agree to the Councell in the particulars assigned and therefore their faith is not recorded therein and so our Opponent seemes to argue pag. 108. and 130. I reply the Antecedent is false no man can name a member of their Church that bids defiance to the authority of that Councell nor can for such a party is accursed by the Councell and thereby made an heretick and none of theirs as we finde in the decree thereof touching the receiving and observing of the decrees of that Councell Sess 25. and the acclamation of the Fathers at the end of that Councell whereupon we may rest assured that some Articles of their faith be erronious and which they be in particular Having hitherto discussed the first principall question propounded cap. 1. num 1. I now descend to the second wherein I may be the more briefe because I haue insisted so long vpon the first CHAP. 8. Prooveth this sentence No Papist as a Papist can be saved THis position speakes not of salvation actually and in the event but of the meanes and possibility of attaining salvation by their faith By Papist is meant such a man as does communicate in the Romish faith So as in plaine English this sentence ought to be pronounced thus The Romish faith disposeth or leadeth not vnto salvation It belongs not to vs to iudge of the event heaven and hell are in the hands of God and to send men thither it is a right so peculiar to God that he will not account with vs for it His sacred Revelation shewes vs the way to obtaine the one and avoid the other wherefore about this may we contend and must about that we doe not striue nor may lest we seeke to be wise beyond sobriety against the Apostles rule Rom. 12.3 Thus haue we propounded the point and vnfoulded the sense It remaineth that in the next place wee see what our adversaries say to it The Opponent B. pag. 6. writeth thereof in this manner The state of the Church of Rome both now and many yeares past is and hath beene such that plagues were due vnto them even from the greatest to the least even to all without exception as well to authours as receivers from the Idiot and Handicrafts man to the Pope and the Colledge of Cardinalls because their religion in many parts of it hath beene hereticall and erronious for opinion and practise I answere so farre as these words doe guide vs we must say that this Opponent opposeth not vs in this point for if their religion made them guilty of and lyable vnto punishment then doubtlesse their faith leads not to eternall life for it is impossible it should tend to two ends of adverse nature so as now we will take him for a friend not as an enemy for we think him so honest that his heart and hand doe agree In the next page hee layeth out the way for their escape from the said danger of punishment and assigneth Repentance to bee the meanes namely repentance either actuall or generall By the first he would haue all such to avoid that danger and be saved which indeed haue builded themselues vpon the rock which is the foundation of the Church though through ignorance they hold the same but weakly frame many base vnsutable things therupon but he thinks that actuall repentance is necessary for all knowne faults I answere he professeth in his margin that he borrowed this discourse from Mr. Hooker of purpose as I conceiue for his further grace but it availes him little If he will be our debtor we will grant him all his writing who will not say that by repentance the greatest sinner may avoid hell and goe to heaven seeing that God hath promised to put all our sinnes out of his remembrance whensoever we repent Ezek. 18. Yet notwithstanding we need not feare his strength in this cause for two reasons 1. This is nothing to the present businesse for we enquire after the end vnto which the Romish faith doth tend and he sheweth the fruit profit or end of repentance how farre then repentance or turning away from the Popish faith is different or distant from the Popish faith so farre is hee wide from the cause in hand 2. This discourse makes strongly for our assertion thus If a man must repent of the Popish religion that is he must turne himselfe from it before he can avoid hell and obtaine heaven then doubtlesse the Romish faith leads not to heaven for the way thither stands not in need of repentance Now let who else will grace his answere seeing the more glory it hath the more glorious is our cause which is so strongly confirmed by it His partner Opponent C. rambleth about this matter and scattereth in divers places some words tending to the same purpose but I will not trouble my selfe and the Reader with them
and afterwards sinne wilfully ver 26. by forsâ—king the Assembly of the faithfull vers 25. and therefore are certeinely subiected vnto Gods fiery devouring indignation and iudgment ver 27. But Iewes and Pagans deny salvation by Christ in the iudgement of this Opponent pag 22. Secondly if all that directly deny salvation by Christ are thus guiltie then this guiltines in the Apostles intent is the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall otherwise the Proposition conteineth not an vniversall truth But this guiltines in the Apostles intent is not the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall but 〈◊〉 denyall in one speciall kinde viz. Apostacy and wilfull backsliding for thus lyes the Apostles reason If wilfull forsakers of their profession and the society of the Saints shall certainly bee punished with Gods fiery devouring indignation and judgement then let vs hold fast the profession of our faith and the assembly of the Saints without wavering But such shall be so punished for their sinne deserues it inasmuch as thereby they tread vnder foote the Sonne of God c. The Proposition and Assumption is set forth from verse 23. to the end of verse 27. and the proofe of the Assumption verse 29. being the place which we haue now in hand whereupon we may conclude Some that directly deny salvation by Christ are not thus guilty and so his Proposition is false that maketh all such deniers to be so guilty and consequently our Mother the Church of England hath the day of victory and so shall hold it These Opponents are vnder the hatches and there we will keepe them This Opponent telleth vs pag. 123. that we shall not need to proue that The Romish Church denies salvation by Christ by consequence he will pardon vs that labour to the end that the Reader should see we confesse him to be a fair adversary I answere and why does he account this pardon a favour done vs seeing himselfe does confesse the thing it selfe so often does he thinke himselfe can doe what we cannot Surely then what differs he from the Bold Braggadochiaes in the Campe whereof wee reade in his partner Opponents Epistle It may be he will say he that makes that proofe must grant that they directly hold salvation by Christ which he does and we doe not I reply he is deceived we doe say they directly hold salvation by Christ according to the voice of humane faith as I haue answered chap. 11. num 5. therefore if any thing makes the difference between his power to proue and ours It is not his affirmation and our negation but he hath skill and we haue none well let him vaunt that hath the vayne To the present matter we say we despise his pardon we craue no favour let him doe his worst wee know whose faith we maintaine and will now proue CHAP. 13. The Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ IN proofe of this sentence I will content my selfe with an Argument in this forme They that directly hold salvation by Christ and other things which cannot stand therewith they by consequence deny salvation by Christ because from the second the direct dentall of the first may be necessarily concluded But the Romish Church directly holds salvation by Christ and other things that cannot stand therewith Therefore the Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ This Opponent may not deny any part of this Argument because the Proposition the proofe thereof is his owne pag 23. 24. so is the Assumption pag. 26. The conclusion is gathered out of them both who therefore on this mans behalfe can except against any part thereof It may be some man may say In all the former passages we haue charged the Romish Church with a direct deniall of salvation by Christ and in this argument we free that Church from such denyall and consequently we contradict our selues so as the proofe of the one doth equally overthrow the proofe of the other and thus our opponent seemes to argue as I haue reported Cap. 11. num 3. I answer this exception may be taken off with ease for we charge them and discharge them as is aforesaid indifferent respects we say they deny salvation by Christ according vnto or in respect of divine faith we grant them the contradictory according vnto or in respect of naturall reason or humaine faith as the Reader may finde cap. 11. num 5. In regard whereof both sentences and their proofes may equally stand together without domage the one to the other If any man thinkes otherwise he must shew it by the rules of Art else no man is bound to beleiue him I answer further this direct holding of salvation by Christ which wee grant vnto them is inducement foundation enough whervpon we may charge them with the denyall of the same thing by consequence For that holding is a reall confession and accordingly doth put the thing confessed in a being sufficient whereupon it may be denyed or avoyded by inference and therefore our Proposition is true that supposeth the same And thus our Argument is sufficiently fenced against the clawes of this Opponent and therefore here I must end the matter of their denyall of salvation by Christ by consequence for none of our Opponents brings more then thus touching the same Some man perhaps would accompt it a thing worth our labour if we rested not in these Opponents confession for the truth of our Assumption but avowed the same thing by the Records of the Romish faith To whom I answer that desire is not vnmeet nor the thing hard to to be done but the present businesse and my office must not be forgotten If I entred vpon that wee rush into another question I am now to answere but hee that does that must proue This Assumption is confessed by all parties therefore it is a principle and accordingly it may make an Argument in this question therfore it must passe as a thing certain Accordingly here we would rest but our present Opponent is not so contented for hee denyes that the Romish Church may be ranked with the old Hereticks because they goe not the same way to worke with them They saith he struck neerer the head then the Church of Rome does She indeed is wandred from God and her doctrine is iniurous and contumelious to God and our Redeemer It doth gainsay the foundation of our faith but yet it is remooued a great distance therefrom raze it it doth but by a circle of consequence at the most thus he writes pag 3. 18. 24. 25. 38. 41. 127. 128. Yet he does not varnish over their opinion nor help the best foote of a lame cause forward if you will beleiue his words pag 127. For this cause therefore I will prooue the Romish Church to deny salvation by Christ by consequence direct and immediate not by a circle or meanes that comes betweene that proofe and that salvation and then wee shall know whether that Church
of Ordination that is the imposing of hands by one that hath Diocesan Authority which we enioy and doe exercise came from them so farre for this time we yeeld that is that such Ministers of ours as first led the way vnto our seperation from them were ordeined or admitted into the worke of the Ministery by such authority of theirs But this proues not that our Ordination and theirs is the same for ours ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith so is not theirs Our Ordination as it ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith is not received from them because amongst them that divine faith is wholly wanting If then any desire to know how they and we doe agree in the outward ceremony and disagree in the in the inward and Spirituall life of Ordinaâ—ion or the power of Iurisdiction left by Christ vnto his Church I answere the providence of God hath made that difference They are given vp to beleeue lyes wee are preserved in the truth and faith once delivered to the Saints The second proofe of his Assumption is contained in these words Wee doe not ordeine them anew which haue taken Orders from that Sea when they become converts I answere 1. This proofe hath the same fault with the former Orders cannot argue the Ministeriall function Ephes 4.8 because that comprehends more then then this yea this seemes to be but the entrance into the function and not the essence thereof 2. I answere The inference is also naught Their ordination may not be repeated when they turne to vs yet ours and theirs may be essentially different as an empty vessell may not be reiected and yet differs from that which is full and indeed soe stands the case betweene their ordination and ours They haue the outward ceremony taken vp by tradition from the precedent and pure ages of the Church wee haue that and the substance also because divine faith goes with ours but is wanting to theirs His third proofe conteineth these words They receiue commission to teach the Scripture not the Popes Legends I answer This branch came out of his owne braine He never found it in any records of their faith Moreover the records of their faith are against him as I haue partly alledged Num. 3. and may further appeare by the 4. Sess of the Councell of Trent formerly reported wherein the iudgment of the true sence of the Scriptures is attributed to the Church that is as themselues expound it vnto the Pope If then their preists must each the Scriptures in the Popes sense then the Scriptures are no better then the Popes Legends and consequently when they teach the Scriptures they teach the Popes Legends To conclude if Commission to teach the Popes Legends be a Ministery differing from the Ministery Ephes 4.8 as this Opponent implyes then the Popish Priesthood is not that Ministery Ephes 4.8 because it teaches the Popes Legends And thus in stead of confirming he overthrowes his Assumption CHAP. 17. The conclusion of the whole claiming our Opponents promise NOw we haue fully finished the body of the disputation we are to come vnto both our Opponents conclusions lest something be left vntouched to the hurt of the cause and offence to the Reader Our elder Opponent concludeth his booke pag. 115. with these words I desire to stand but so right as I am in all honest Iudgements I beseech all Readers to Iudge wisely and vprightly of what I haue written And in his second Epistle he promiseth after this sort If you can soundly and substantially Convince mee of vntruth I professe before God and the world that I will yeeld vnto you without any more adoe being already willing to be overcome of the trueth in this case The younger Opponent pag. 132. ioynes with his partner in the same promise If I haue erred I shall thank those that will bring mee into the way againe If I haue favoured any vnsound opinion yea or haue spoken suspitiously let me suffer as an Heretick but let no man condemne me till he hath first shewed me better and found me obstinate I answere the whole summe of their promise makes vp this conditionall Proposition If we haue erred we will revoke that errour Whereunto I will adde this Assumption But you haue erred And accordingly every must make this conclusion Therefore you must revoke your errour The consequence of the proposition may not be questioned because then selues haue made it and the one hath professed before God to performe it The other craueth the punnishment due to an heritick if he breakes it Wherefore so farr our ground worke is certaine If they doubt of the assumption they haue offred faire and I accept it They are content to stand to the iudgement of of such readers as be wise honest and do feare God I desire noe better arbitratours They require to be shewed better by sound and substantiall conviction and I say it is the best issue If therefore such Readers finde such conviction these Opponents must grant the assumption and execute the conclusion for every honest man performes his promise when he hath received the condition FINIS