markes and haue al mens eyes fixed theron your selfe not fixing your owne eyes on the very marke set vp betwéene them graunt that the B. hitte at the full that which he shot vnto Which graunted the arrow so reboundeth on you your cause that it quite ouerturneth both But M. St. hauing now espied that he hath graunted that which he sawe aâ—…nswereth sufficiently M. Feck issue and also confoundeth these new and false principles and yet he could not for shame playnly recaÌ„t nor reuoke his grauÌ„t he first begiuneth â–ª to pinch nip it saying it is true princes may haue dealing in eccl. matters but in some meaning by whiche some meaning what he meaneth as he dare not here for shame vtter so he quickly slippeth froÌ„ it telling vs it reacheth not home and that the B. doth but face and bragge thinking euery man borroweth of his coÌ„mon places And so to knit vp with his own words is much labour vainly and idelly employed with â—…edious and infinite talke and babling al from the purpose and out of the matter which ought specially to haue bene iustified not in stead thereof to detayne and delude the reader with these newe sixe markes and false presupposed principles The third part of this diuision is his quarelling with the B. for saying he made proofe euen by many Papists them selues Which part he distributeth into thrée members the first he calleth in the margent the vneuen dealing of the Protestants the secoÌ„d a chalenge to M. Horne and the third M. Hornes tale incredible First for the vneuen dealing of the Protestants Now is it worthy saith M. St. to see the ioly pollicie of this man and how euen and corrâ—…spondent it is to his fellow Protestants M. Iewell restrayneth the Catholikes to sixe hundreth yeares as it were by an extraordinarie and nevv found prescription of his owne embarring al latter profes yet he him selfe in the meane tyme runneth at large almoste one thousande yeares later shrynking hether and thither taking tagge and ragge Hereâ—…ike and Catholike for the fortifying of his false assertions When ye haue proued the B. of SaruÌ„ his assertions false then cal them so for before while ye complayne of the Protestantes vneuen dealing ye shal shew most vneuen dealing in suche a Papist as your selfe As with all you shew your ioly Logike that you crake so much vpon how euen correspondent it is to reason M. â—…uel restrayneth the Papists to 600. yeres to proue their articles by Ergo he can not confute their articles with their own coÌ„fessions that are of later yeres As for the tag and rag and mag too that he hath improued them withall be euen them selues their owne ragged rabbines and tagged scholemen be they heretikes or be they catholikes But be they as ye please to call them dothe the limitation of your proues restrayne his improues What if he improued your articles euen by your own mouthes who are now oxtant might it be lawfull for you to câ—…yne yet more newe articles and to alledge proues for them of your own time bicause he confuteth them by proues of your owne tyme this belike were euen dealing with you to let you haue so large scope to proue articles as the improuer may haue to confute theÌ„ But as it is good reason ye should for the profe of your articles be content for shame with so large a scope of 600. yeres nexte after Chrisâ—…e so haue ye accepted thys limitation already and M. Harding your standard bearer your selfe with many of your partners haue vndertaken to bring foorth your proues according to that restraynt of 600. yeres How ye haue done it Scripture as they say maketh mention let the readers iudge Belike your selues doubt of those proues and therfore groyne now at length to be so restrayned for your proues and fayne woulde haue a larger scope saying this is an extraordinarie and nevve founde prescription of his ovvne embarring all later prooues it goeth harde with you he like that ye whine now so fast at that which ye receiued so lustily to soeme to and craked vpon before and now that ye can not proue any one of your articles in all that terme of 600. yeares â–ª ye coÌ„playne of vneuen dealing But what if ye had bene restrayned to the time of the primitine church ye would then haue made an outcrie and yet it had bene requisite that for articles of faith religion ye should not refuse to be restrayned euen to Chryst his Apostles And least ye should thinke we deals vneuenly with you wheras you for to proue those articles of your religion haue the scope of 600. yeres next after christ limit you vs for any one articls of our fayth or religion euen to the time of Christ and his Apostles abode on earth So farre within 600. that we wil proue it euen within sixe score yea within sixe yeres if ye wil. So little haue ye any iust cause to complayne of vneuen dealing â–ª But let goe this your fonde quarell agaynst the B. of Sarum and preserute your argument from him to the B. of Winchester your aduersarie This vvise trade say you this man keepeth also and to resolue M. Feck and settle his conscience he specially staieth him selfe vpon Platina Nauclerus Vâ—…spergensis Sabellicus Aeneas pius Volateranus Fabian PolychronicoÌ„ Petrus Bertradus BeÌ„no the cardinal â–ª DuraÌ„dus â–ª Paulus Emilius Martinus Penitentiarius Polid. Ver. and such like as he him selfe declareth other where and in this place also confesseth Now albeit the catholiks refuse no catholik writer nor in this matter haue cause so to do yet in a matter of such importaÌ„ce vvhich besides the losse of all temporall reliefe and besides bodily death importeth also euerlasting damnation to the catholikes if the case so stande as M. Horne and his fellowes beare vs in hand reason vvould he should haue fetched the substance of his profes much hier yea within the. 600. yeres whervnto they strayne and binde vs The effect of al this is that as the B. of Sa. hath done the B. of Wint â–ª must do the like or else they disagrée and is contriued in this argumeÌ„t If the B. of Saâ—… would haue the papists to proue those their articles vvithin the boundes of 600. yeres then should the B. of Winchester in this so 〈◊〉 an Article fetche the substance of his proufes vvithin those boundes But the B. of Winchester doth not this but to resolue M. Feckenâ—…am and setle his conscience stayeth him selt vpon Platina Nauclerus Abbas Ursperg Sabellicâ—… c. all popish and late writers Ergo Their doings are not euen and correspondent To this I answere no parte of this argument is true neither Maâ—…or Minor nor Conclusion The sequence of the Maâ—…or followeth not bicause the B â–ª of Sarum and the B. of Winchesters cause and occasion were nothing a like The Minor being of two partes both are false For first he fetcheth the
his Legates â–ª Forsoothe when he dothe it then it is a principall matter it argueth his supremacie and therefore none can do it but he But nowe when examples are founde and alleaged that Christian Princes had wonte to doe it Ergo They were supreme then belike therein Nay then it argueth no supremacie then it is no principal matter nor any eccl. matter at al. Thus you play mockhalliday with vs and boe péepe as though we were children it is and is not When the Pope dothe it then it argueth a supremacie when the Prince dothe it then it argueth none And why so for sooth then the case is altered Thus do you dally out the matter and when any substantiall proufe is brought agaynst you either ye giue it suche a mocke as this or leape cleane ouer it as though ye sawe it not or in stéede of answere to that that is propounded propounde your selfe an other allegation which is clauâ—…m clauo pellere to driue out one nayle by another For to the allegation out of the Emperours Theodosius and Ualentinianus Epistle ye answere nothing but set a péece of another letter of Ualentinian to Theodosius in the téethe of it VVe sayth Valentinian to the Emperour Theodosius say you ought to defende the fayth which we receyued of our auncestors with all competent deuotion and in this our tyme preserue vnblemished the worthy reuerence due to the blessed Apostle sainct Peter so that the moste blessed Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath giuen the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all other may O moste blessed father and honorable Emperour haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes And for this cause the bishop of CoÌ„stantinople hathe according to solemne order of Councels by his Libel appealed vnto him And this is writteÌ„ M. Horne to Theodosius him selfe by a coÌ„mon letter of Valentinian And the Empresses Placidia Eudoxia which Placidia writeth also a particular letter to hir said sonne Theodosius and altogither in the same sense Héere ye clap vp a marginall note The Popes supremacie Proued by the Emperour Valentinian alleaged by M. Horne And héere agayne full triumphantly ye crie out HerkeÌ„ good M. Horne giue good aduertisemeÌ„t I walk not and wander as ye do here alleaging this Emperour in an obscure generalitie wherof cannot be enforced any particularitie of the principall question I go to worke with you playnly truely and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour by playne words the Popes supremacie the practise withall of appeales froÌ„ Constantinople to Rome Héere is a ioly face of this matter M. St. But yet héere is not one worde to answere the bishops allegation but to coÌ„mend your owne that ye set against it and so thinke ye answere it bicause it is of the same Emperour Ualentinian whom the bishop alleaged But such answere as it is sithe ye can make no other we muste take it or none at your handes Neuerthelesse since ye so crake that ye walke not and wander not in obscure generalities but go playnly and particulerly to worke if ye ment as ye say how chaunce ye open not any of the necessary particuler circumstances of the matter whervpon the Emperour wrote whiche might haue made this matter plaine would haue shewed what and wherin they coÌ„mended the B. of Rome and what authoritie belonged to the Emperour Yea if you had but set downe a little more largely the selfe same Epistles that ye cite the matter had beene a great deale more cleare Ye say also ye go truely to worke and yet you falsly translate euen those very words that ye cyte and so cutte them off ere ye come to the periode that that which shoulde haue shewed the matter to haue béene about a particular controuersie of the fayth then risâ—…n might séeme to be generally spoken of all controuersies And therfore ye leaue out these wordes For the controuersie of the faith that is sprong vp And where the wordes of your allegation are Locum habeat ac facultatâ—…m de fide sacerdotibus iudicare that he may haue place and leaue or facultie to iudge of the fayth and of the Priests you captiously and falsly translate it that he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes This subtile translation in generall ye vse to make it appeare that the Bishop of Rome hath a generall authoritie to be the chiefe Iudge to decide all doubtes in matters of fayth and to be the chiefe Iudge of all Priestes where your texte inferreth no suche thing Likewise where the Emperour sayth of the Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath yeelded the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all others ye conclude that by playne wordes is shewed the Popes supremacie and so sette vp your Marginall note The Popes supremacie proued by the Emperour Valentinian Where in your letter are no suche playne wordes of supremacie nor any proufe thereof at all Do you thinke that the Emperour acknowledged that supremacie which your Pope nowe chalengeth and vsurpeth not onely ouer all Priestes but ouer all Kinges and Emperours also No master Stapleton it is euident by the dealing of these Emperours and that euen in this matter that the Pope â—…ad no suche supremacie but the Emperour dyd those thinges then that your Pope dothe clayme nowe as further shall appeare in the proper treatise therof Your Pope nowe woulde be lothe to be suche an humble Lâ—… and fall downe to the Egles féete as the Pope dyd then to the Emperour whiche nowe ye make the Emperour doe to the Popes féete For why ye may â—…ay â—…empora mutantur nos mutamur in illis the tymes are changed and we are changed in them All the playne wordes and proues ye crake of for this supremacie are these that the Emperour sayth antiquitie gaue hym the principalitie of Priesthoode But there is a greate difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and supreme head or chiefe gouernour of Priesthoode or that all Priesthoode is deriued out of the Popes Priesthoode as diuers of your wryters affirme that Christe made Peter onely a Priest and all the other Apostles had their Priesthoode from him and so all other from the Bishop of Rome whome they call hys Successoure But as they erre in the office of Priesthoode wherof God willing we shall speake hereafter so whatsoeuer the office of their Priesthood was their saying is manyfest â—…alse For if Peter were a man as he confessed hym selfe to be S. Paule sayth he had not hys authoritie of men but immediatly of God and Peter gaue him nothing neither yet Iames nor Iohn And here if I might spurre you a question bicause master Heskins setteth oute his Parliament so solemnelie before his boke in pictures for the nonce making s. Iames the first that sayde Masse wherin he followeth the coÌ„mon opinion
of the Papistes I demaunde if Peter was made the first priest al other froÌ„ him how s. Iames could say the first masse that was said was Peter made Priest without singing or saying his first masse or any masse at al then belike Peter was no masse 〈◊〉 priest 〈◊〉 pope hath not hâ—… principalitie of priesthood froÌ„ Peter nor any priesthod at all from him for Peters was no massing Priesthoode suche as the Popes is and pretendeth to be the principall of that order But at your leysure answere this onely nowe I note that there is a great difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and the supremacie of all the Churche of Christe which is your conclusion and that that your Pope chalengeth But the Emperours words héere do nothing proue it And yet suche principalitie or excellencie of Priesthoode as it was it neither came from God nor from Peter for any thing that either is playnely alleaged or proued héere but rather the playne wordes are to the contrarie that this principalitie was yéelded and giuen to the Bishop of the Citie of Rome by men for so sayth the Emperour antiquit as contulit antiquitie gaue it Béeing partly moued with the opinion that Peter was bishop there and partly for that Rome was the auncient and moste famous Citie of the Empire as appeareth in the nexte Epistle of Placidia by you mentioned who calleth it Ciuitatem antiquam the auncient Citie and the Citie that is the Lady of all the Emperours Cities And therefore it became them to conserue the reuerence therof For which considerations that antiquitie gaue to it the principalitie and to the bishop therof Which principalitie of priesthoode or bishophâ—… was not aboue but vnder the principalitie of the Emperours estate as appeareth euen by these Epistles cited by you For first in the Epistle whereout ye take your allegation Ualentinianus telleth howe when he came to Rome I was sayth he bothe of the Romane Bishop and also of other that were with him gathered togither out of diuers prouinces entreated to write to your mildnesse saith Ualentinian to Theodosius of the fayth which beeing the preseruer of all faythfull soules is sayd to be troubled which fayth beeing deliuered vs froÌ„ our Elders we ought to defend with al coÌ„peteÌ„t deuotioÌ„ in our times to coÌ„serue vnblemished the dignitie of the reuerence proper to the blessed Apostle Peter so that the most blessed B. of the citie of Rome to whom antiquitie hath giuen a principalitie of Priesthood aboue all others may O most blessed Lorde Father and honorable Emperour haue place and facultie to iudge of the faith of the Priests and for this cause according to the solemnitie of Councels the Bishop of Constantinople hath appealed to him by his Libels for the contention that is sprong vp of the faith to him therefore requesting and adiuring me by our common sauing health I denied not to grauÌ„t thus much as to moue my petition to your mildenesse that the foresaid Priest meaning the Bishop of Rome all the other Priestes being also gathered togither through all the worlde within Italy all other former iudgement set aside may with diligent triall searching all the matter that is in controuersie from the beginning giue such sentence thereon as the faith and the reason of the true diuinitie shall require For in our times the frowardnesse of multitudes ought not to preuayle against religion since hitherto the faith hath bene conserued stedfast And to the more perfect instruction of your worthinesse we haue also directed the gestes whereby your godlinesse may know the desires and outcries of them all Thus farre the Epistle Which if ye had withall sette downe it wold haue dashed your Marginall note and conclusion of the Popes supremacie It would haue shewed that this principalitie of priesthoode was so vnder the Princes principalitie that the Pope was faine to labour to Ualeâ—…tinian and the Empresses also to write to Theodosius that he might haue place leaue to iudge the matter And that the place of iudging it might be in Italie and the Bishop of Rome might giue sentence not as he him selfe should please but conditionally as the truth should require and that thus he would admit the Bishop of Constantinoples appeale to take place and so he sendeth all the gestes of the matter for the Emperour to peruse and know them and to graunt their petitions and desires In all whiche things though there were a principalitie of the Priestes and Bishops and chiefly of the Bishop of the chiefe emperiall Citie olde Rome so farre as appertayneth to the debating discussing and iudging the doubtes in controuersie yet so farre as appertayneth to the licencing thereto the commaunding directing ordering setting out and maintayning euen of the same Synodicall iudgements of the Bishop of Rome or any other the supreme principalitie belonged to the Emperours And this appeareth yet furder by the other Epistles that ye mention In the next Epistle of the Empresse Placidia to Theodosius the Emperour hir Sonne for the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople after she hath shewed with what teares the Bishop of Rome moued hir to write she sheweth how all thinges were done vnorderly at Ephesus against Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople bicause sayeth she he sent a libell to the Apostolicall seate and to all the Bishops of these parties by those which were in the Councell directed from the moste Reuerende Bishop of Rome VVho are accustomed O moste holy Lorde my Sonne and Reuerent Emperour to be put according to the Decrees of Nicene Councell and for this cause let your mildenesse withstanding so great troubles commaunde the truth of the Religion of the Catholike faith to be kepte vndefiled And so ascribing a principall prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome she desireth the Emperor that the iudgement of the matter may be sent ouer to him Which sheweth that the Bishop of Romes principalitie was vnderneath the Emperours Likewise in the next Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius after she hath praysed the Emperour saying It is knowne vnto all men that your mildenesse hath a care and earnest heedefulnesse of Christians and of the Catholike faith in so much that you would commaunde nothing at all to be done to the iniurie of it And after she hath shewed how the Bishop of Rome besought hir in the foresaide matter to derect hir letters to the Emperour saluting you sayth she I desire right that your tranquilitie would vouchsafe to haue care to the letters and those things that are ill done ye would commaunde them to be amended vntill that all things that also already are determined be altogither reuoked the cause of the faith and Christian religion that is moued in a Councell gathered togither in the partes of Italy may be fetched out For it is written that all this contention raysed commeth from hence that the Bishop Flauianus might be remoued from the Ecclesiasticall dealings Thus do these
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differâ—…ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ„ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to â–ª Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌ„maundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my â—…ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them â–ª What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ—… reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌ„trouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ—… promise of him â—…y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the â—…oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kâ—…pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pâ—…t 〈◊〉 and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ—… a faith and Church â—…egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ—… make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that â–ª your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ—… bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiâ—…hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister 〈◊〉 rightly to saue my promise And will deâ—…ende wâ—…th
vvith all eloquence and learning he set foorth against Horne the false Bishop of VVinchester So stornfully this rayling Papiste speaketh of the Bishop and so he braggeth of his fellowes lerning and eloquence All whiche considered I thought it necessarie and more than high tyme to answer these proude Phariseis least the goodnesse of the cause should become distrusted the truth suspected the Prince slaundered the Bishop defaced the enimie encouraged the godlie offended the simple abused and the whole estate euill spoken of by too muche vnfrutefull silence and ouerlong suffrance of such false and glorious pratlers And although for these causes I was the willinger to sette it foorth yet was I the more emboldned on the request of diuerse that hearing I had trauailed in it by their godlie persuasions vrged me the more thereto The chiefe of the Argument consisteth on the Supreme gouernement of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall The occasion sprang of a controuersie betweene the Bishop of Winchester and master FeckenhaÌ„ about the Oth of the Supremacie All which is extant abroade in a learned and pithie booke of the Bishops answering to maister Feckenhams scruples The issue they draue the matter vnto was this that maister Feckenham must be resolued for the Princes Supreme Gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes by any of these foure meanes the Scripture the Doctours the Councels or the Practise The Bishop accepteth the offer and maketh proofe of the Princes Supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes not onely by any one but by euery one of all these forsayd poyntes as the Bishops booke is euident to testifie Maister Feckenham that had made his promise to take the Oth vponany of these proues and seing them all beyond his cunning and expectation proued but neither mynding to keepe touche nor able to answere suborneth a chapman from beyond the seas to wit this Louanist maister Stapleton if he may be called Maister for order of schole degree that is suche a renegate from God and runnagate from his Prince who to saue maister Feckenhams honestie if he woulde aduenture to relieue his cause master Feckenham should to saue his credite vouchesafe to relieue his neede Master Stapleton hauing better furniture of sale eloquence than store of grounded learning and yet more learning than grace well to imploy it in acknowledging the manyfest truth taketh vpon him to aunswere the Bishop and deuides all the matter into foure Bookes whereof this is the fyrst that here is answered This doone he conceiueth suche apride of this his exquisite piece of worke that we must needes haue some fyne new name for this fyne newe booke singular heads ye know must haue singular inuentions and bicause the Bishops name is M. Horne he entitleth his worke forsooth a Counterblast And yet somwhat truer than he himselfe wist beeing in deed a blast scarce worth a Counter if the reader well examine it And that ye maye the better perceiue this volume deserues so rare a name for these two rare gifts eloquence and learning for which maister Sanders so highly extolleth him Mulus mulum scabit And sith these two champions beare now the bell for eloquence among the Papists the one for English the other for Latine I haue sorted maister Stapletons eloquence by it self consisting on certain CoÌ„mon places folowing that we may the easier iudge of the substance of his learning whiche otherwise we should not so well discerne it is so poudred with his eloquence His eloquence I confesse I haue sayde but little vnto nor can say muche nor would say ought vnto it as one that neuer was trained vp in the scholes and arte therof As for maister Stapleton goeth beyond maister Saunders and withoute all comparison is an A perse Doctor in it and therfore I set it asyde the better to viewe the learning to the whiche I had more especiall regarde for when all is done the Eloquence settes it out but the Learning proues the matter And though it be not replyed vpon with suche learning as many other better coulde that rather shoulde haue doone it yet haue I endeuored truly simply and playnely to answere it and I hope to the coÌ„tentation of the modest Reader that rather respecteth the boulâ—…ing out of the truthe the staye of his conscience and the glorie of God than either the estimation of learning or the shewe of eloquence Nowe although the Supremacie be the principall matter yet the importunitie of maister Stapleton hath once or twice caried me perforce away with him to purge our selues of certain auncient Herekes that he layeth to our charge and crieth so faste vpon vs for answere and sayeth we styll slinke from it as though we hearde it not and therefore I haue here at large made aunswere to it which makes the volume aryse the bigger In somuche that I thought for all maister Stapletons exclamations to haue lefte it out or put it in one of his Common places But that Maister Saunders commeth rufflyng in wyth the like argument and therefore I lette it stande as it did And I truste I haue cleerely disburdened vs and iustly burdened them therewyth tyll they shall be hable to discharge themselues therof I desyre good Reader but euen indifferencie in thy iudgement Last of all since Master Sanders hath compiled his great volume of the Popes Uisible Monarchie in the secoÌ„d book wherof he entreth into this argumeÌ„t of the Princes Supremacie I haue chosen out of the second booke 4. chapters of the state of the Ciuil and Ecclesiastical power in the Original in the Use and End of both of the Interest and superioritie of either state chiefly of that he would not only defeate the Prince of all gouernment in matters Ecclesiasticall but also clean dispossesse hir Maiestie of hir Crowne For maister Saunders to mayntein the trecherous fact of Pâ—…us the fift the last Pope if Cardinal Bon Compagnion Pope Good fellowe as the talke wente be not deade woulde proue that Bishops may depose their Princes and assoyle their subiectes from their allegeance Whiche poyntes as they draw nerest to the present argument and in deed are for learning suche learning as it is the principall pointes of all his volume I thought good to ioyâ—… them vnto Stapleton and so in one answer answere both though both be answered seuerally as they drawe neere or farre in resemblance or varietie of Argument example or similitude aboute this matter Wherein what is doone I committe vnto thee good Christian Reader to iudge as God shall moue thy heart and besecche thou him to moue it to the best That the truth may appeare that the falshode may be detected that thou mayst be edified that the Prince may be obeyed that the Gospel maye be prospered and that God aboue al things may be glorified nowe and for euer Amen Master Stapletons common places THat all master Stapletons whole volume as well therein himselfe termeth it a Counterblast is indéede but a verie blast blowne out to encounter the
Apostles Peter and Paule doe playnely declare The. 57. vntruthe The Apostles neuer declared any such matter So saye you in déede â—… Stapleton but the Bishops proofes out of Chrisostome and sainct Augustine do playnly declare they did The. 58. vntruth Of misunderstanding sainct Augustine bicause besides this bederoll he also chargeth the Bishop therewith at large in the Counterblast it is answered seuerally in the answere of the. 18. chapter Not meaning only the transgressors of the seconde table in teÌ„porall matters but also agaynst the offendours of the first table in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes or matters The. 59. vntruthe Sainct Augustine meaneth not to teach suche gouernement of Princes in ecclesiasticall matters as you teache but onely to punishe Heretikes and by the same to mayntayne the Catholike fayth decreed by the Clergie not by the ciuill Magistrate Belike ye can tell better what sainct Augustine meant than be could him selfe But S. Augustine is playne he néedeth no suche interpreter Remember your owne note maledicta glossa quae corrumpit textum Cursed be that glose that corrupteth the text S. Aug. interpreting the mynd of the Apostle to be that the authoritie power of Princes hath to deale in ecclesiastical causes so wel as in teÌ„poral The. 60. vntruth Saint Augustine neuer wrote so Ye shoulde haue tolde out the sentence of S. Augustine that the B. citeth which fully proueth it and then haue improued it as an vntruth if ye coulde whiche although ye do not yet in the margine of that sentence ye crye out lustily and say where is there in all this master Horne that the Princes haue to deale in ecclesiastical causes so well as in temporall For sooth master Stapleton euen here at your hand in this present sentence wherein S. Augustine proueth and your selfe also graunt so muche that the Princes authoritie punishethe so well abuses in eccl. causes and faultes againste religion as it doth ciuill or temporall causes but it punisheth all external faultes and abuses in al ciuil and temporal causes that by his supreme authoritie therein not as an others executioner Ergo it punisheth al external abuses and faults in all ecclesiasticall causes and religion and that by his supreme authoritie therein and not as the clergies executioner Eusebius c. vnderstanding the ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate to be about Gods religion and eccle causes so well as temporall The. 61. vntruth Eusebius neuer vnderstoode any such ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate In what things Eusebius vnderstoode the ciuil Magistrats ministerie to consist the B. set downe Eusebius his owne wordes to proue that he vnderstood it so you say he neuer vnderstoode it so but ye set downe neuer a worde neyther here nor in your Counterblaste to proue the contrarie which tyll ye shall be able to do the Byshoppes vnderstanding of Eusebius by his owne wordes is no vntruthe Eusebius saythe that in preaching by hys decrees true godlynesse in setting foorthe the religion of the moste holy lawe and the most blessed faythe the Princes ministerie consisteth in these things so wel as any other or before al other as his best ministerie But these things are not ciuill matters but spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo his ministerie by Eusebius vnderstanding consisteth so well in ecclesiasticall or spirituall matters as ciuill or temporall This moste Christian Emperoure did rightly consider as he hadde bene truely taughte of the moste Christian Byshoppes of that tyme that as the Princes haue in charge the mynisterie and gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall The. 62. vntruth impudent and shamelesse concluded but no whit proued And in his Counterblast I say it is a starke and most impudent lye that ye say without any profe Constantine was taught of the Byshoppes that Princes haue the gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall ye conclude after your manner facingly and desperately vvithout any proufe or halfe proufe in the worlde Here are wonderfull boysterous wordes Master Stapleton but greate boast and small roaste as they say For all this hyghe chalenge standeth on I saye and so in déede it appéereth to be your saying but hadde it not béene your saying Master Stapleton I woulde haue thought it hadde béene some cotqueanes cryaleyson and I woulde haue answered a wispe a wispe for setting aside your foule language what vntruthe is here concluded or what concluded that is not proued The Prince hath the setting foorthe of true religion of Gods moste holy lawe and the moste blessed faythe but these thinges are not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall the Prince hath to puâ—…te awaye and ouerthrowe all euilles that presse the vvoorlde but none presse the worlde more daungerously than superstition Idolatrie erroures heresies scismes sectes and false religion all whiche are no ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall matters The Prince dothe these thinges not as an executioner of an others ministerie but all the dooing hereof is the ministery properly beloÌ„ging to his owne office yea it is his best ministerie Ergo he dothe all these thinges with as muche or more full and proper authoritie of his office â–ª as he dothe any other ciuill thing But his ministerie in ciuill things is by his supreme authoritie vnder God therin whose minister S. Paule calleth him This is the Bishops conclusion moste playne and true all your blackemouthed Rhethorike to the contrarie notwithstanding For this cause also Nicephorus c. compareth Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine For this cause the. 63. vntruthe as shall appeare There is no doubt some great cause that moued you M. Stapleton to put this in your bederoll of vntruthes that the Bishop sayd for this cause And if you were asked for what cause ye doe so it séemeth it would be harde for you to render any and therefore ye take a wise and a short way to tell vs it shall appeare But here ye shewe none nor any at all here appeareth And where it shoulde appeare there appeareth none also except this be sufficient reason onely to denie it and say it is no cause at all For these wordes onely appeare there VVhere ye say for this cause also c. this is no cause at all but is vntrue as of the other Emperour Constantine and muche more vntrue as ye shall good reader straight way vnderstande What cause I pray you is here alleaged and yet this is all that ye say vnto it sauing that as ye sayde before it shoulde appeare referring vs there hither here ye saye as the reader shall straightway vnderstande it And yet neyther straight way nor crooked way ye speake one worde more of the matter but goe about the bushe medling with other matters and not with the truthe or vntruthe hereof any more And so it appeareth nusquam and the reader shall vnderstande it nunquam Neyther is it any maruell if ye can not lette the reader to
that vve vvere baptised in Sée what a wicked slaunder to couer your disobediēce ye charge your most gratious prince withall as though she went about to make you renie that fayth ye vvere baptised in And this ye doe euen where ye pretende to kneele on your knees vvith moste humble and lowely submission Sée what cankred hearts ye beare for all your counterfayte crouching If ye knowe M. Stap. the fayth ye were baptised in at least if ye were rightely baptised and be a true Christian man it is not in the name fayth or obedience of the Pope but in the name fayth and obedience of the father the sonne and the holy ghost and this fayth the Q. maiestie goeth so little about to haue you abandon that hir Graces supreme gouernemēt is chiefly directed to this end to haue ye without any superstition error idolatrie or any other pollution therof kéepe maintein it inuiolate as in baptisme ye promised to do and therfore this is not subiect like though ye be on your knees neuer so muche to accuse hir highnesse as to cause ye to abandon the fayth ye were baptised in She requireth ye to kéepe it not abandon it neither on the soden nor at leisure And if this were all the cause of your refusall of obedience as hir Grace neuer denied you it ye doe but slaunder hir so néeded ye not haue runne away nor shew yet such disobedience to hir authoritie since she euer graunted and maynteined the thing ye séeme to craue Howbeit your counterfeite humilitie detecteth it selfe to be very stubborne disobedience And that while ye pretende to craue one thing ye entende another thing And that is ye would be borne with still to refuse her graces supreme authoritie ouer you in Ecclesiasticall causes this is the thing in deede ye meane and ye would the rather be borne withall bicause it is a matter that commeth vpon the sodaine therefore ye can not vpon the sodaine graunt it In déede M. St. ye pretende reason Weightie matters require not to be done on a sodeyne passion but with deliberation ▪ But is this so sodeyne a matter yet vnto you did ye neuer heare of this questiō before haue ye not had leasure to deliberate thereon but who seeth not that and ye had neuer so much leasure this matter would still come vpon the sodeyne to you and of reason ye must haue time to take aduisement vpō it which you will take all at your leasure and so for feare ye should become an obedient subiect vpon the sodeyne ye craue to remayne still vpon deliberation an obstinate enemie But M. St. pretēding this refusall to be for the abandoning of the faith that we were Christened in procéedeth And as we are assured all our auncetours and her Maiesties owne most noble progenitours yea her owne most noble father King Henrie the eight yea that faith which he in a clerkly booke hath most pithily defended and thereby atchieued to him and his and transported as by hereditarie succession the worthie title and stile yet remayning in her Highnesse of the Defendour of the Faith. As ye slaunder most wickedly the Quéenes Maiestie to cause ye to abandon the faith of your baptisme ▪ so ye slaunder not only al our auncestors but that most famouse Prince her highnesse Father K. Henrie the 8. as christened in the faith of the Popes obedience hereof ye say ye are assured when it is most assured most euident false For although our fathers the Q. Maiesties father also yea many of vs our selues the Q. Maiestie also her selfe were borne and baptised when all the errours of poperie or many of them did chiefly abounde yet can no more any one of these be said now to be baptised in those errours that they helde which baptised them if they kept the right formall words of baptisme I baptise thée in the name of the Father of the sonne of the holy Ghost thā in the old time any of their childrē or they themselues could be saide to be baptised in such errours as they helde that were Nouatians Donatists Rogatists Pelagians or any other Heretikes that notwithstāding kept the right element formal words of baptisme Neither can any Papist say now to any that dissuadeth him from his popish errours that he goeth about to will him to abandon the faith wherein he was baptized any more thā a Pelagian or any such Heretike being moued to forsake his heresie could pretēd he were moued to forsake the faith he was baptised in bicause they that baptised him yea his auncesters before him were Pelagians c. Ye should therefore M. St. make your distinction betwene the faith of your baptisme and the faith that your popish Church putteth in diuers erronious pointes of doctrine As for the faith that K. Henrie the 8 ▪ the Q. Maiesties most noble Father set out in the Booke that ye mencion therby labour to stayne the Q. Maiestie as setting out a contrarie faith to her father as you for your parte M. St. shew your extreme malice nothing subiectlike to blemish her highnesse with the famous renown of her father which notwithstanding ye cā not do so for the King her father I answere you howbeit his booke were clerkly yet clerklines is one thing truth is an other what maruel if he thē wrote in defence of your doctrines whē your popish prelates hid the very truth frō him bore him in hand that your falshoodes were truth till it pleased God not to suffer so noble a Prince to be any longer deluded by such false prelates but first in this question after in other according to the measure of his merciful riches reueled the truth vnto him how chance ye speake not of his faith then what clerkly sincere doctrine he set out thē against your Pope And as for the Q. Maiestie herein which is the proper questiō now in hād followeth most zealously the steppes of her highnesse father not wherein he was abused as many other princes were by false teachers but in that he forsooke those errours he abolished those false teachers their captaines vsurped authoritie in that he obeyed the truth reueled to him before all his own clerkly bookes before all worldly glory securitie aduentured himselfe his kingdome against all his enemies in setting forth the truth gouerning his subiects after the word of god Which though it were not so plentifully set forth then nor all wéedes so thoroughly rooted vp by reason of some false Gardiners whom he trusted ouer much howbeit at lēgth thanks be to God he espied them also had procéeded furder if God had lent him furder life yet is he rather to be commended for that he did than to be euil spoken or euell thought of for that he could not throughly bring to passe in his time but left his most vertuouse Sonne King Edwarde to bring to more perfection
hindreth the matter offendeth and abaseth God and maketh all those playne traytors to God that vse it But to be euen with him M. St. for calling you traytors call you him agayne heretike call him a Vigilant an for it But then must ye make Chrisostome a Uigilantian with him that is euen as earnest agaynst this shifte of intercession as he For writing vpon the womaÌ„ of Canaan calling vpon Christ for hir daughters health he â—…arth 〈◊〉 meâ—… c. Haue mercy vpon me Beholde the phisosophical minde of the woman saying haue mercy vpon me I haue not sayth she a conscience of good workes nor a trust to godly lyfe to mercy I flee to the calme hauen of those that sinne to mercy I flee where iudgement ceasseth where vnspeakable saluation is Tell me O thou woman how art thou so bolde sithe thou arte a sinner and wicked to come vnto God I know sayth she what I will do Behold the womans wisdome she requireth not Iames she besecheth not Iohn she goeth not to Peter nor regardeth the company of the Apostles She sought not a mediator but in place of all them she tooke repentance to be hir companion which repentance filled the roome of an Aduocate and so she went vnto the chiefe fountayne For this cause sayth she he came downe from heauen for this cause he was incarnate and made man and I dare speake vnto him Aboue in the heauens the Cherubins dread him the Seraphins feare him and heere beneath euen a common woman sayth vnto him haue mercy vpon me A very bare saying but conteyning euen the mightinesse of saluation haue mercy vpon me For thys sayth she thou camest for this cause thou took est fleshe for thys cause thou wast made euen that which I am O wonderfull matter aboue is trembling beneath is confidence haue mercy vpon me I haue no neede of a mediatour haue mercy vpon me VVhat hast thou neede of mercie I seeke sayth she c. haue mercie vpon me If my daughter were dead she shoulde not suffer such things for then vvould I haue deliuered hir bodie into the bosome of the earth and in processe of time I should haue forgotten these euilles and my griefe vvoulde haue paused â–ª c. Marke the philosophie of the woman behold hir noble courage she went not to soothsayers shee called not wise men she sought not charms to tie about hir she fetched not those â—…orceresse women that vse to prouoke Diuels and augment the â—…ore vvith theyr enchauntmentes Shee lette go all suche falsehoodes of the Diuell shee contemned all purgings and shee came vnto the healthefull porte of oure soules c. The iudge commeth to thee flee thou to God the Iudge doth call for thee doe thou inuocate God whiche is on thy syde Is he farre from thee that thou shouldest goe to any place for him God is not included in place but he is always euen present at hand euen he that is not shut vp in place is holden yet by faith For if thou wilt enquire a man and demaund what he doth thou shalt heare he sleepeth or he is not at leysure â–ª or in deede euen his seruant vvill disdayne to answere thee But vnto God there is no nede of any of these things But wheresoeuer thou shalt be or wheresoeuer thou shalt inuocate him he hereth thee ther nedes no porter ther needes no mediatour there needes no seruant but say thou Haue mercie vpon me and by and by God will be present yea whyle thou yet speakest he sayeth here I am c. Let vs followe then this woman of Cananâ—…e And like wise on the same storie in an other place Mauult 〈◊〉 nostram c. God had leauer haue our own prayer which are guiltie than the prayer of other for vs. And again Non est opuâ—… paâ—…ronis apud deiâ—… c. There is no neede of patrons before God nor nede of gadding vp and down to flatter other But although thou art alone and haste no patrone and prayest by thy selfe yet shalt thou certainly obtain thy request for God doth not so easily graunt when other pray for vs as when our selues do pray yea though we be replenished with many euils And to conclude he saith Haecigitur scientes c. Knowing therfore these thinges let vs euermore flee to God who is both willing and able to deliuer vs of oure grieues But as for men if at any tyme we shoulde entreate them it behoueth first to meete with the porters to moue their parasites and iesters and oftentymes to goe along way about but in God there is no suche matter he is intreated without mediator without money without cost he graunteth our prayers Now although we sée by the Scripture and by these fathers being yet therfore no Heretikes that we néede not nor oughte to seeke so muche as any intercessoures by whiche terme ye woulde shifte off all the matter saying ye make them no helpers but intercessors only yet herein your shifte is not so miserable as your lie is manifest You inuocated Saintes as healpers yea and Sauioures also Your Primers can witnesse againste you youre Antiphonaes your Grayles your Massebookes Hyuâ—…als Legendes Portasses c. Haue ye forgotten this hymne to the blessed virgine Marie Virgo singularis inter omnes mitis nos culpa solutos 〈◊〉 sac et castos vitaÌ„ prâ—…fta puraÌ„ iter para tutuÌ„ vt videntes Iesum semper collaetemur O thou virgin singular among also meke make vs loose from sinne make vs meeke and chast giue vs a pure lyfe and make our iourney safe that beholding Iesus we may alwayes ioy Do ye not pray in your primer to S. Iohn and the virgin Mary Te etiam inuoco c. I inuocate thee also with Marie the mother of the same our sauiour that thou wouldest vouchsafto giue me thy helpe with hir O you two precious stones O heauenly Marye O Iohn O you two lightes from God shining before God with your rayes driue away the cloudes of my sinnes Doe ye not there pray to S. Christofer O thou martyr Christofer with the godlie honor of our Sauiour make thou vs in mind to deserue the loue of God Christ hath promised that what thou askest thou haste obtained giue vnto the sory people those things that at thy death thou askedst giue thou comfort to vs and take away the grief of our mynde make thou the accompt of the iudge to be milde to all men Pray ye not to S. George on horsebacke O George the noble martyr prayse and glory becommeth thee c. we beseeche thee with the bottome of our hart that our sinnes being washed away we may be ioyned with al the faithfull citizens of heauen Pray ye not to the. 11000. virgins O you eleuen thousande maidens Lilies of glorious virginitie and Roses of martyrdome defende you me in my life giuing to me your helpe and in my death shew your selues vnto
it is of master Foxes owne setting foorth I graunt M. St. he is the chronicler setteth downe that he findeth Doth that argue that he acknowlegeth for true euery such article as he setteth downe nay he maketh often exception to the contrarie that many of suche articles are falsly obiected which neuerthelesse he setteth downe Yea but there is moe thinges layde vnto him than this By whome M. Stap Forsoothe euen by sir Thomas More A trustie witnesse on your owne side But go to be it he sayde euen so Yet is this iniustly done of you master Stapleton to charge all Protestantes with his opinion in this poynt when they manyfestly mainteine the contrarye We deale not so with you we burden not your whole Churche where ye openly defende the contrarie with the seuerall iudgement of euery writer much lesse of euery obscure author and suche an one as of whome we haue nothing but heresay and that such heresay as his aduersaries loue to reporte and wrest to make it odious to the hearer this is not vpright dealing But yet for al this ye can not héere vpon fasten that whiche so fayne ye would that therfore he is a Donatist The Donatistes denied to Princes the punishment of heretikes and would haue beleefe free This man denieth neither of these First his quarel was not of faith alone but as ye tell it for any maner of crime to be punished by death and yet it followes no more hereon that he woulde haue faith free to beléeue what eche man woulde then he woulde haue it â–ª frée for any manner of cryme to doe what eche man woulde Secondly thoughe he denie the punishment by death yet he denieth not but thereâ—… â–ª graunteth that Princes might make lawes of other kind of punishement which if he graunt them your selfe cleare him of béeing a Donatist But leauing him ye tell vs of greater businesse concerning sir Iohn Oldecastle whoÌ„ ye rattle vp with a susurrauit calling him traytor and detestable Donatist And nowe say you all the weight resteth to proue this substantially to you and to master Foxe And to stoppe all your froward quarellings and accustomable elusions against our proofes VVell I will bring you as I thinke a substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man. Héere is a lustie crake M. Stap. to bumbaste the matter withall out of doubt we shall héere haue some great foyle But let vs sée what all this haynous matter is Forsoothe M. Foxe setteth downe the articles that the Papistes haue composed to be sir Iohn Oldecastles articles the tenth article whereof is this That manslaughter either by warre or by any pretended lawe of iustice or for any temporall cause or spirituall reuelation is expressely contrary to the new Testament which is the lawe of grace and mercie Why M. Stap. is this your substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man this is none of master Foxes saying nor opinion he dothe but write â–ª playne and plat what soeuer articles it pleased his enimies your auncestors to deuise in the name of Sir Iohn Oldecastles articles Lo thus he writeth say you of this worthy Champion and that euen in his owne huge martyrologe who doubteth but to the great exalting and amplification of this noble worke and of his noble holy martyr The worthy prayse of this noble worke in déede and of this noble and holy martyr are no whit blemished by these your scoâ—… raylings M. St. but what kinde of argument call ye this he reciteth this article among the rest and therfore out of doubt he alloweth it and sets it out to hys great exalting and amplification By this argument your selfe allowe the article too for ye haue héere also recited it But what would ye haue sayde if he had subtracted it and the one of the twayne he must haue done either haue left it out or set it out as he founde it But howe chaunce you lefte out that whiche in many places of his worke M. Foxe noteth of the Papists corrupting of those martyrs articles yet which is in déede to his great exalting and amplification he setteth them downe euen as he founde them For the thing to any indifferent reader will easily shewe it selfe But yet goe to once agayne Were this article his or not his it proues not him a Donatist First the Donatistes allowed manslaughter thoughe vnlawfully done as your selfe haue proued before of the Circumcelions But héere ye graunte that he vtterly disalloweth all manslaughter and so ye cleare him héerein of béeing a Donatist Agayne the Donatistes vtterly reiected as your selfe say all the Princes authoritie and all punishement in false religion Contrarywise Sir Iohn Oldecastle allowed their authoritie yea ouer the Pope and his Prelates to punishe them for their false religion And thoughe he disallowed manslaughter yet can ye not gather that he allowed no punishment for false religion Onlesse as ye shewed in the dayes of your late crueltie there be no punishement with you but manslaughter Whereby we maye more iustely gather that he acknowledged their authoritie in willing Princes to punishe thoughe not by deathe than you can any way gather héereon that he vtterly denied all kinde of punishement And if ye would deface his martyrdome for this or couÌ„t it Donatisticall of the same minde was euen sir Thomas More him selfe your owne mery martyr whome ye cited to witnesse a fewe lynes before as appeareth in his Vtopia although more couertly yet he quite disaloweth manslaughter and deuiseth other punishments in stead thereof Is he therefore a Donatiste And I pray you what was all the auncient order in banishing heretikes was it death or were they Donatistes then bicause they allowed not punishment by death So was S. Augustine a Donatiste also whome ye cite agaynst the Donatistes For it was long or euer he came to this opinion that the Donatistes might be slayne and vpon what considerations I wil shew you out of that learned clarke Erasmus who for this matter also had great conflict with your Sorbonistes I denie saythe he that euer I readde that Byshoppes sholude haue stirred vp Kinges to kyll Heretikes For this is not to warne Princes in generall but to appoynte oute vnto them a kynde of punishement But I speake in my reprehension not of these tymes but of Sainct Augustine and the Byshoppes of his age For nowe certayne Abbotes and Byshoppes thinke it a moste acceptable sacrifice to God if they may kyll a great many with their owne sworde and their owne hande And to confesse the truthe in that they tell howe Sainct Augustine was first of that opinion that he denied the Emperoures power to be called vpon but when he sawe the heresie succeeded he changed his mynde euen so is it as true that I wrote But then had they to do with Donatistes that were more than heretikes
that be in authoritie no authoritie at all What a saying is this and yet sée how your selfe confute your selfe Going about to embarre their authority ye say he meÌ„â—…ioned their peaceable gouernmeÌ„t â–ª He did so in déede M. St. But what gouernment or what peaceable estate of gouernment had they if they had no authoritie at all It sée meth that while ye 〈◊〉 to saye somewhat against their authoritie ye neytâ—… oâ—… regarde nor can tell what ye say of them nor of the Apostles â—…eyther to maintayne your false quarrell Now as ye further procéede so still ye bring your selfe more in the briers But will yee knowe say you M. Hoâ—…ne why thapostles both Saint Peter and Saint Paule so earnestly taught at that time obedience to Princes Ha go to then M. St. belike they tauâ—…ht obedience to Princes more earnestly than your Popishe Prelates haue taught or pract sed since that time or than your selfe haue herâ—… taught vs not ouer earnestly but God wote full sâ—…enderly or rather by all shifts and fetches of your wits haue sought to deface and impuâ—…nt their authoritie But how agréeth this with S. Paule earnest teaching Yea â–ª howe woulde ye make Saint Paule agrée to himselfe To say that he speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes and yet that here he taught obedience to Princes so earnestlye What obedience taught he if he taught not their authoritie at all What earnestnesse vsed he then therein but let vs sée as ye would haue vs what was the cause of the Apostles earnestnesse This was the cause In the beginning of the Church some Christians were of this opinion that for that they were Christian men they were exempted from the lawes of the Infidell Princes and were not bounde to pay them any tribute or otherwise to obey them To represse and reforme this wrong iudgemeÌ„t of theirs the Apostles Peter and Paule by you named diligently employed themselues And was this a wrong opinion and iudgement M. Stapleton and with such earnestnesse and diligence employed of the Apostles Peter and Paule to be repressed and reformed that Christians for that they were Christian men were exempted from the lawes of the Infidell Princes and were not bound to pay them any tribute or otherwise to obey them What a right opinion and iudgement then was this of him that affirmed not only the same of Infidell Princes but of Christian Princes to that we be not bounde by force of anye wordes of Christes sentence which as â—…latly commaundeth vs as any of these the Apostles sentences doe to obey or paye so much as tribute to our Christian Princes Doe ye not knowe who this was that helde this wrong opinion M. Stapleton Well who soeuer it was I thinke be must with shame saye that of him selfe which he spake of another that eyther hee recanteth as better aduised or else writeth playne contrary to himselfe But nowe sayth M. St. for the Apostles sentences VVhose sayings can not implye your pretensed gouernment vnlesse ye will say that Nero the wicked and heathenishe Emperour was in his time the supreme head of all the Church of Christ throughout the Empire as well in causes spirituall as temporall As before M. Stapleton you captiously restrained Christes generall commaundement of obedience to Princes only to the Emperour so doe ye here againe besides that ye sticke also in the person abusing his office and let the dutie of his office go Whereas S. Paule writeth generally not only for those then present but for all kinges or any other in authoritie both then and from thenceforth for euer And so doe all the Expositours gather a generall rule for all Christians towards their christian Princes although Nero and other princes then were wicked and Heathenishe infidels Yet in the duetie of their estate to the which God had called them they ought neither to haue bene wicked nor Heathenish Infidels but godly and faithfâ—…ll defenders and setters forth of Christ his true religioÌ„ To reason therfore from such persons abuses therevpon to denie from all princes the dutie of their lawfull authoritie is as naughtie an argument as Nero himselfe was naughtie And Chrysostome flatly confuteth this cauill of the Princes person Neque enin de quouis c. For neyther I speake now sayth he of any one of the Princes but of the matter itselfe And againe Propterea non dicit non enim princeps est c. VVherefore hee sayth not there is no Prince but of God but he disputeth of the matter it selfe saying there is no power but of god The powers that are they are from God â–ª As when any wise man sayth that the woman is knit of God vnto the man he sayth no other thing thaÌ„ that God hath ordeyned mariage not that euery man how so euer he dwelleth togither with a woman is ioyned vnto him of God for we see many dwelling togither in euill not according to the lawes of mariage which yet notwithstanding we impute not vnto God. This cauillation therefore how naughtie soeuer the Prince were restraineth not the Apostles meaning which tendeth to the office and not to the person least of all to those present persons then liuing For were they neuer so wicked other were good that knew the dutie of their estate gouernment exercising it both in the direction of vertues punishment of vices as well of the first as of the seconde table this your self haue confessed to be the dutie of Princes and why had it not bene Neroes duetie to And I praye you what lacketh this of all ecclesiasticall causes the vertues and vices of the first and seconde table But ye thinke to escape with this your common exception saying And yet in temporall and ciuill matters I graunt we ought to be subiect not only to Christians but euen to infidels also being our Princes without anye exception of Apostle Euangelist Prophete Priest or Monke as ye alleage out of Chrysostome And doe you thinke thus in déede M. St. as ye saye and shall we haue any better holde of you in your graunt once again be it euen but for temporall ciuil matters And yet this fayleth much of that ye graunted before of the first as well as of the second table Be Princes the Clergies superiors now Before ye sayds that Princes should take to much vpon them to thinke themselues ecclesiasticall persons superiors speaking simply of superiours without your distinction of ciuill and temporall or spirituall and ecclesiasticall matters But sée M. St. what ye haue grauÌ„ted here It is not vnknown to you that the Pope in no case can abide no not for ciuill and temporall matters to be subiect to any Christian Prince or Emperour but contendeth euen therein also to be the farre superiour and weareth thrée crownes where the Emperour weareth but one and that one he hath set on turned off with his foote and made him kisse his foote and troad
of the othe or statute Why say you they all appertaine not to the inferiour ministerie whiche ye graunt to Priests and Bishops only but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernement which you doe annexe to the Prince only In déede these thinges you make to appertayne to youre Pope to whome ye giue such supreme iurisdiction and gouernement as annexeth all this to his papal authoritie But ye doe wickedly herein and iniurie to our sauiour Christe to whom only such supreme iurisdiction and gouernment belongeth and vnder whome the inferiour ministers maye do these things not as they please but as he hathe prescribed them The Iurisdiction and authoritie appertaineth onely to ministers bishops or priestes as ye call them To whome herein we doe not as ye sclaunder vs graunt only an Inferiour ministerie but euen an higher ministerie than wée giue to Princes In their spirituall ministration they are higher ministers but in gouerning them ouerséeing them directing punishing maynteyning placing or displacing them as they shall do their dueties well or yll the Prince therein is higher than they and his gouernement vnder God is supreme and chiefe in all suche causes as belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall persons or any other in his territories This is that the statute ascribeth and the othe requireth farre from youre malicious and sclaunderous slate of the question that you haue here deuised Whiche as ye say the truthe therein the Bishop proueth not for it is no part for him to proue But that this is the â—…slue he fully preueth Yea and proueth the full contentes of the Othe also to the whyche ye woulde so fayne driue the question nowe in hande After ye haue thus sette vp a false and wrong state and quarelled at the verie state of the question in hande playnly and truely set downe by the Bishop ye enter into your second part wherin prefixing an other marginal note Master Hornes dissembling falsehood ye chalenge the B. to omit two clauses of the statute the one at the beginning therof the other at the ende The former is this That no foraine person shall haue any maner of authoritie in any spirituall cause within this realme By whiche wordes is flatly excluded saye you all the authoritie of the whole bodie of the Catholike Churche without the realme as in a place more conuenient towardes the ende of the laste booke it shall by Gods grace be euidently proued If that be a place more conuenient why doe ye anticipate it here not so conueniently where it appertayneth not to the question in hand The Bishop now medleth not with that parcell that excludeth all foraine authoritie but onely with that parte that expresseth what manner of authoritie it is that the Quéenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir And this the Bishop playnely and faithefully dothe not here intermedlyng with other pointes of the statute But where that conuenient occasion is there ye shall sée the Bishop touch that that here ye call for And there a Gods name answere hym if ye can But your fingers itched ye coulde not holde youre hande but néedes ye muste euen nowe haue a fling thereat for a farewell Althoughe therein ye proprely ouertourne youre selfe and yet to make somewhat of the matter yée playe all the false playe yée can For where the Statute mencioneth onely anye forraine persone to haue no authoritie you conclude that it excludeth all the authoritie of the whole bodye of the Catholike Churche withoute the Realme Where as there the Statute mencioneth not the catholike Churche at all And besides who séeth not a great difference betwéene these twayne any persons authoritie and the whole bodies authoritie And who séeth not withall that if England be a parcell and membre of the whole bodie of the Catholike Churche of Christe and all the membres make one vnited bodie then neither is the whole bodie foraine to the members thereof nor the particular membres foraine to the whole bodie Nor in déede any parte of this mysticall bodie is excluded But in that respect that one countreyman is foraine to an other suche foraine authoritie of any foraine person is thereby excluded But in regarde of the bodye of the Catholike churche if ye meane Christes holie Catholike Churche there is neyther Iew nor Gréeke Scythian nor Barbarian nor any forayne Countreyman we are no straungers and forainers but Citizens of the Saintes and of the householde of God and all compacte in Christe nor any is excluded oute of this Churche if he be in and of this Churche bycause he is not forayne And where ye saye the whole bodie of the Churche without the Realme youre wordes implie a contradiction to themselues For if the realme be a parcell of the bodie of the churche whiche perchaunce you will denye or if the realme be a parcell of the bodie of the Churche whyche you wyll not denie then that which is without the realme is not the whole bodie as ye call it But lettyng this goe what is that authoritie be it of the most part or be it as you saâ—… of the whole bodie of the Churche without the realme that ye would haue the realme allowe If it be the verie Catholike church of Christe then is it also the wyfe and spouse of Christ and hath no authoritie to make any faith doctrine or religion besides that hir husband hath appointed neyther England Fraunce Germanie Italy Spayne or any other parte or all the whole bodie of this spouse hath authoritie to doe it And looke what parte doth not this or presumeth to doe otherwise becommeth foraine and as foraine is cut off euen as a rotten and putrified member seuered from the bodie Euery braunche sayth Christ that beareth not fruite in me my father will cut it away But if this authoritie be for such ecclesiastical discipline as Christ hath giuen therof no expresse coÌ„maundement then euery seuerall part may receyue or not receyue the same and yet is not estranged or made forrain from the whole corps of Christendome yea though the most parte of the churche besides authorised and vsed the same But euery particular Churche hath in it selfe authoritie to establish orderly suche disciplines as shall be thought best and fittest for their estate and yet is there no diuision or schisme from the whole thereby But sith ye referre your selfe to a more conuenient place where ye say it shall by Gods grace be euidently proued it is not much conuenient to stand any more hereon sith it is here but accessorie and ye confesse your self that ye doe not but ye will hereafter by Gods grace proue it euidently But I doubt me of two things the one of your euident prouing therof the other that ye will doe the same by the grace of God the dooing wherof is agaynst the grace of God. The other clause saye you you omitte at the ende of the statute whiche is this That all maner superiorities that haue or may lawfully be exercised
force of his royall power oâ—… else a woman also might bothe teache in the Churche and also remitte sinnes and baptise orderly and solemnly and minister the sacrament of thankesgiuing For sithe bothe by the lawe of nations it is receyued that a woman may be admitted to the gouernment of a kingdome and in Moses lawe it is written when a man shall dye without a sonne the enheritance shall passe to the daughter but a kingdome commeth among many nations in the name of enheritaÌ„ce And sithe Debora the Prophetesse iudged the people of Israell and also Athalia and Alexandra haue reigned in Iurie it appeareth playnly that the kingly right appertayneth no lesse to women than to men VVhich also is to be sayde of children bicause according to the Apostle the heire though he be a childe is Lorde of all And Ioas began to raygne when he was seuen yere olde and Iosias reigned at the eight yere of his age But a childe for the defecte of iudgement a woman for the imbecillitie of hir kinde is not admitted to the preaching of Gods worde or to the solemne administration of the Sacraments I permit not sayth the Apostle a woman to teache For it is a shame for a woman to speake in the Churche and the same Apostle sayth that the heire being a childe diffreth nothing from a seruant But it is not the ecclesiasticall custome that he which remayneth yet a seruaunt shoulde be a minister of the Churche Sith therefore in the right of a kingdome the cause is all one of a man of a woman and of a childe but of like causes there is like and all one iudgement but neither childe nor woman and therevpon neither man also that is nothing else but king can do those things in his kingdome which of other ministers of the churche of God are necessarily to be done therfore it commeth to passe that neither the same king can rightly be called the supreme gouernour and head of the Church wherin he liueth All this long argument standeth stil on the foresayd principle that a supreme head or gouernour must be such a person as may do all the actions of all the offices belonging to all the parties gouerned But this is a false principle as alredy is manifestly declared therfore al this long driuen argument is to no purpose The Prince for all this may stil be the supreme head or gouernour ouer all Ecclesiastical persons so well as temporall in all their ecclesiasticall causes so well as in temporall although he himselfe can not exercise all ecclesiasticall functions nor doe himselfe all the ecclesiasticall actions of all ecclesiastical persons For else he might also be debarred of all supremacie ouer all ciuill and temporall persons in all their ciuill and temporall causes bicause he can not himselfe exercise all the ciuil and temporall offices nor do himselfe all the ciuill and temporall actions of all the ciuill and temporall persons neyther And so shoulde â—…e cleane be debarred from supremacie in either power nor haue any supreme gouernment at all Nowe taking this your false principle pro confesso â–ª after your wonted maner ye would driue vs to an absurditie as ye suppose by bringing in more examples of a woman and a chyld reasoning thus A pari from the like A woman and a child may be as well a supreme gouernor as may a man and hath as good right thereto But a woman or a childe can not be a supreme gouernour in causes Ecclesiasticall Ergo A man can not be a supreme gouernour neither in causes Ecclesiasticall For to this conclusion the force of bothe the promisses naturally driueth the argument I know ye clap in a paire of parenthesis saying in your coÌ„clusion neither a man also that is nothing else but a king But sith these wâ—…r des ar neither in the maior nor the minor the coÌ„clusion is plain â–ª that a man can not be a Supreme gouernor in causes Ecclesiasticall And I pray ye then tell me who shall be the supreme gouernour in ecclesiasticall causes if neyther man woman nor chyld may be wherby are not only excluded ciuill Princes but youre Popes are debarred from it Pope Ioane and Pope Iohn also For if they vse that order in the election to haue a Cardinall féele that all be safe yf the Uersicle be sayde Testiculos habet howe can the quyre meryly syng in the responce Deo gratias If hée be founde to bée a man he can not be supreme gouernoure Maister Saunders therefore muste néedes mende thys argumente or else the Popes for whome he writes this boke wyl con him small thanks except that they be Eunuches But Master Saunders not marking the sequele of hys conclusion fortifieth the parts of his argument To confirme the maior A woman and a childe may be as wel a supreme gouernour as a man he citeth the lawe Num. 27. he citeth ensamples Debora Athalia and Alexandra for women For children he citeth the Apostle Gal. 4. and the ensamples of Ioas and Iosias But these proues are superfluous sith the controuersie is not on the maior but on the minor Which minor is the point in controuersie and denied of vs that a woman or a childe can not be a supreme gouernour in causes ecclesiastical To confirme this minor for a woman he alleageth that she can not be admitted to preache the woorde of God remit sinnes nor baptize orderly and solemnely nor administer the Lordes Supper bothe for the imbecillitie of hir kinde and for Saint Paules prohibition of teaching in the Church For a chyld he lykewise can not do the same things as well for defect of iudgement in his nonage as for Sainte Paules witnesse that he differs not from a seruant But the Churches vse is not for seruantes to doe these things and so not for children to do them Here for confirmation of his minor master Sanders rusâ—…s to his false former principle that if the woman the chyld be supreme gouernors in these things then muste they be able themselues to do these things But they cannot do these thinges themselues Ergo they can haue no supreme gouernmeÌ„t in them But this reason is alreadie taken away and therfore al this argumeÌ„t falles We graunt it is true that neither women nor children can do these things And therfore the Papistes are to blame that suffer women to bapatize and to saye or sing in theyr quyres theyr ordinarie seruice and reade the Lessons Wee graunte them also that no men neyther but suche as bée lawfully called therevnto maye themselues exercise and do these things but doth this fellow they may not therfore haue a gouernment ouer those that doo them in their orderly doing of them if this were true then take away all their gouernement ouer all lay persons and all ciuil causes too For neyther women can nor ought them selues to do all that men béeing their subiects can and ought to
vvere in times past the Leuitical priests yea rather sith the Apostle treating of the Ministers of the nevve Testament conferring them with the olde Leuites sayth that they ministred death and the letter that killed but these minister the spirit which quickneth and righteousnesse and therfore the ministers of the nevve Testament are more vvorthie than the olde Leuites vvhat maner of king shal vve thinke him to bee vvhiche contemning the ministers of the nevve Testamente calleth himselfe the supreme head of his Christian kingdome and that immediatly vnder Christ This comparison Maister Saunders of the ministers of the olde and nevve Testament rightly vnderstood wée acknowledge The nevve is more vvorthy than the olde but the vvorthinesse and glory of the nevv ministration that saint Paule speakes on is spirituall and not outvvard glory For although the ministers of the olde Testament had outwarde glory and some of them by especiall calling had the visible supreme and ciuill gouernement although seldome yet the ministers of the nue testament are by Christ as your owne selfe haue confessed flatly forbidden it Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so And therefore where ye woulde haue them of no lesse dignitie meaning of outvvard glory and gouernment or else your example holdes not they are of farre lesse dignitie therein notwithstanding in a spirituall and invvarde glory they are againe of a farre greater dignitie than the olde Which spirituall dignitie if any King shoulde contemne you might then well demaunde vvhat maner of king he were and we woulde answere you hée were a wicked King but as these are two distinct dignities the spirituall dignitie of the minister and the visible supremacie of the King so may they be and are with vs well and godly vsed both of them Where both the Prince hath the outward dignitie of supreme head or gouernour vnder Christ and yet the ministers spirituall dignitie is not onely no whit contemned but hath his honor yelded due vnto him And therefore we denie not that which followeth For if he acknowledge not the Ministers of Christe ouer him he can not be blessed of them VVherevpon neither can he be pertaker of the sanctifying spirite whose ministers they are We graunt Maister Saunders that the Prince humbly receiueth their blessing and is partaker of the holy spirite of God whose ministers they are in these actions Wherein the Prince acknowledgeth them to represent God and is vnder them But what hindreth this that in other respectes they againe are vnder him and he their supreme gouernour but Maister Saunders procéedeth saying Dauid cryeth and nowe ye kings vnderstande and be ye learned ye that iudge the earth apprehend discipline least the Lorde waxe wroth and ye perishe oute of the right waye But if kings must be learned then so farre forth they must be vnder For he that is learned is learned of some maister and is scholler to him of whome he is learned the disciple is not aboue his maister but in that thing that he learneth of his maister of necessitie he is inferior That kings ought to be learned we gladly confesse and are glad that you confesse it althoughe againste your wylls for ye would rather haue them altogither vnlearned whom ye haue so long detained in blindnesse But why woulde ye haue them nowe learned forsothe bicause you would onely be their maisters and so they shoulde be still your vnderlings not onely in learning suche ill lessons as you woulde teache them but vnder pretence of teachers to be their gouernours too True it is in that the teacher teacheth he is aboue and in that the learner learneth he is vnder â—…ut the teacher is not aboue nor the learner vnder in other things Thoughe Moyses learned of Iethro yet in gouernement Moyses was aboue him Thoughe Dauid learned of Nathan yet in gouernement he was aboue him Thoughe Ozias learned of Iudith yet in gouernement he was aboue hir And so all princes that are taughte of their schole maisters their scholemaister maye be the better in learning but he is the worser in authoritie And thoughe he be the maister in knowledge yet he makes euen his knowledge wherby he is maister to serue the Prince also Yea although the Prince be not his maister in learning yet in all causes of learning the Prince hath a generall supreme gouernement to sée by his lawes euery kinde of learning maintayned in his order to forbid naughtie artes to be learned to appoint such suche an order methode to be taught or learned as learned men enforme him is good and easie to the attaining of learning to appaynt scholes and learned scholemaisters for learning and to giue them lawes statutes and stipendes for the maintenance of learning all this may the Prince doe by his supreme authoritie ouer all learned persons and in all causes of learning althoughe he himselfe be altogether vnlearned and can not one letter on the booke Althoughe woulde to God all Princes were learned not as the Papistes woulde haue them but as Dauid was and exhorteth all Princes to bée And thus as thys sentence makes nothing in the worlde for him so hys example thereon makes verye muche againste him But for all thys argumente be thus simple he wyll loâ—…de vs with further proues saying Sithe therefore it is sayde to the Apostles Go teache ye all nations and sith vnder the names of nations the kings of them are comprehended and Byshops and Priests haue succeeded the Apostles in the office of teaching truely in the offyce of teachyng the Byshoppe is greater than his king so farre is it off that the king can be the Bishops hed in all things causes VVhich title notwithstanding is not onely of these men giuen to a king but also by publique decree of late in Englande giuâ—…n vnto a Queene To reason froÌ„ teaching to gouerning is no good teaching M. SauÌ„ders If ye teach this doctrine theÌ„ your Pope should haue little gouernment for God wot he teacheth little being often times vnlearned and alwayes to proud to teache If ye say he teacheth by others so caÌ„ a prince too And though he could himselfe teache and would also teach the truth and not suppresse it yet sith ye say he succedes the Apostles but in the office of teaching he is no furder superior than he teacheth by your owne reckoning Neither would this superioritie be denyed him of any that he ought to teache if he in dâ—…de succeded the Apostles But if the succession of the Apostles consist in teaching as here ye confesse then hath not the Pope to crake muche of succeeding Peter and Paule that teacheth not as Peter and Paule did as woulde to God he did and all priests or Bishops else Whiche if they did and taught truely this woulde augment and not diminishe the Princes supreme authoritie yea and the Quéenes too Maister Saunders for in gouernement before ye
naughtinesse of the argument We graunt that to iudge aright of Ecclesiasticall matters is a great gift of God but that the iudgemeÌ„t of ecclesiasticall matters is onelie to be restrained to binding and losing as you here define what you meane by iudging in matters of faith this is a manifest falsehood True it is that binding and losing can not rightly be withoute iudgement nor withoute right iudgement and therefore your Pope and you doe erre so often herein both binding that that should be losed and losing that that should be bound errante claue as ye terme it your key erring and erring also not onely in things to be bounde or losed but in the power it selfe of binding losing too Yet notwithstanding binding and losing and the iudgement requisite in binding and losing are two distinct and seueral things and iudgement reacheth furder to other things also euen in the Priest himselfe besides the Princes iudgement And therefore as this definition of iudgement in matters of faith is preposterously brought in for ye oughte before to haue defined what ye ment by iudgemente so is it false for other matters of faithe require iudgement besides binding and losing Now where you say this power commeth not of the principles of our corrupt nature but of the free mercie of God you say truth But that ye adde the mercie of God is made manifest vnder the time of the newe testament partlye by the law written partly not written is spoken ambiguously For that Princes iudged in matters of faith was also made manifest in the olde Testament but that Princes haue power to binde and lose we graunt is neither manifest nor couert neither in the olde or newe As for the newe lawe to be deuided into written and not written is another error and impertinent to this question Your vnwritten lawe of the new Testament we stand not vpon But to affirme that by neither way written or vnwritten no power is giuen to kings in Ecclesiasticall matters that we denie and your self haue rather confuted it thaÌ„ hither to confirmed it But to confirme it ye bring out this reason Neither were thene at the beginning any Christian Kings to whom Christ shoulde haue committed any power nor the Apostles gaue any rule according where vnto the kings should iudge of Ecclesiasticall causes That there were no Christian kings then is not materiall For by this rule they should be no defenders of the faith neither bicause Princes were not theÌ„ defenders of it But that the Apostles gaue no rule whereby they should iudge is false For whosoeuer should iudge shuld iudge by gods word and this rule Christ and his Apostles gaue in generall But that Princes mighte iudge is both proued from the olde Testament and by the text that M. Saunders himselfe citeth out of the new yea by that he saith immediatly For if any man say kings are appointed iudges in a cause of the faith only bicause by Baptisme they are made spiritual meÌ„ who iudge all things and the spirites do trie those things that are of God this in dede I graunt to be true in the kynde and maner of the priuate but not of the publique iudgement For it is another thing when thou art a member of the Catholike Church nor preferrest thy selfe before thy pastours what is necessarie for thee priuately to Iudge and this the vnction teacheth and another thing to take vpon thee power to teache others and to prescribe to thy Pastors what they ought to do or teache when thou art not called to the publique ministerie of the Church as Aaron was We know there is a difference betwéen priuate and publique Iudgement But that this place of S. Paule The spirituall man Iudgeth all things is only to be vnderstoode of prinate Iudgement is but the priuate iudgement of M. Saunders But it is well that he graunteth priuate iudgement to euery Christian man Neither is it any reason then it shuld be debarred irom any Christian Princes neither is it anye reason that the Prince although in his priuate Iudgement â–ª rightly iudging a matter of faithe to be true shoulde not approue set forth the same publiquely by his princely authoritie And so his priuate Iudgement directs his publique Iudgement For a Prince is not only a priuate man but a publique man also not that he may doe all things of his owne priuate or publique Iudgement nor take vpon him the publique ministerie of the pastour in teaching being not called as Aaron was for this is not ascribed to the Prince bicause he giueth a publique Iudgement in respect he is a publique person but his Iudgement is a publique approbation and establishing of that that is alreadie by others Iudgement â–ª iudged to whome the discussing appertaineth In which discussing althoughe the godly learned clergie being called as Aaron was haue the greatest skill and charge of Iudgement yet the lay men suche as are also learned and godly haue a publique Iudgement too Or else why saith Panormitane we shoulde more beleue a lay man alleaging scripture than the whole councell besides but nowe the truth being once founde out by these learned Iudgements the Princes publique Iudgement as it called them together as it gaue them their charge so it prescribeth what the pastors ought to doe and teache therin without any preiudice to the spirituall pastors Iudgement in the function of his doing and teaching Now hauing thus set downe his owne assertions he will enter on the other part to confute our obiections And first he alleageth this reason of the protestantes In all the olde Testamente we sée gouernors and Kings both to haue prescribed to the priests what they ought to doe in ecclesiasticall matters and also to haue remoued them froÌ„ the ministerie that haue negligently done their dutie To this obiecton M. Saunders answere is this that this reason holdes not from the olde Testament to the new If this came so to passe in the olde Testament saith he yet no reason shuld compell that the same shuld be so in the new Testament sith the reason of the eccl. gouernment is changed And are you changed too M. Saunders that saide before after say make all your booke of it that the ecclesiastical kind of gouernment hath bene alwayes one and that is a viâ—…ble Monarchie euen from Adam to Pope Pius â–ª 5. and said that if the gouernement be changed the Churche must needes be changed tâ—…o and made the gouernement of the olde Testament to be a figure of the new But now that you are beaten with your owne arguments you say they hold not by reason the ecclesiasticall gouernment is changed But I see Maister SauÌ„ders you woulde deale with vs as the riche man dealt with his poore neighbor When the poore maÌ„ complained saying I beseeche your worship be good vnto me for my Cowe hath goared your Bull. What hath he quoth the riche maÌ„
that the Kyng should be obedient to the disposition of the humaine minister of Christ which is the question nowe in hande And yet whether it signifie this mysterie that you say it onely doth or no may be called into question For if it hath such a significatiō it is a very darke mysterie And me thinks it might more easilye signifie other things For oyle sometimes signifieth mercie sometimes plentie sometimes remedie against poyson sometimes it is referred to the Priesthoode sometimes to the kingdome of Christ somtimes to the mysticall members of Christ as they are Kings Priests with him so that the anoynting with oyle which espetially was vsed to Priests and Kings who therefore are called the sons of oyle is applyed to sundry significations and not onely to the incarnation and humaine nature of Christe And yet is there no suche necessitie of anoynting Christian Kings as was of the Iewishe Kings For they had commaundement so to doe and it was a ceremoniall figure of diuerse things in christ Which commaundement and ceremonies Christian Princes are not bound vnto It is cropen vp of a custome I cānot tel how to imitate the Iewes herein But as for the nature of a Kings estate he is neuer a whit the lesse King if he wante the anoynting with oyle and as the Papistes superstitiouslie doe vse it it were muche better away But the Papistes make a great matter of anoynting Kings with oyle yea sayth Maister Saunders they were wont to be annoynted no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes as thoughe they shoulde be so anoynted still And true it is in one sense that they shoulde no other wise be so annoynted still that is to say neyther of them shoulde be anoynted No say you should not the Priestes be annoynted ▪ We are In deede you be Maister Saunders and all your order But the Apostles and Disciples of Christe were not and therefore your order is differing from theirs and all godly ministers should differ from yours be ye shorne or be ye anoynted But if it be true that you say kings should be no otherwise anoynted than you howe chaunce then ye are anoynted otherwise than kings as your glosse doth reason that vpon the King is powred oile but vpon the Bishop is powred Chrisme Kings are anoynted on the righte shoulder but Byshops and Priestes are annoynted vpon their heads but the heade is better than the shoulder and Chrisme is better than oyle Ergo Bishops and Priests are superior vnto Kings Were not they which anoynted their pamphlets with such greasie argumentes to perch vp their balde crownes aboue the imperiall crownes of their natural Soueraignes worthy by the Princes commaundemente to be well anoynted with vnguentum baculinum to make them acknowledge their due subiection if they rather deserue not sharper instice but let vs procéede vnto M. Saunders other arguments Let vs put the case that Christ himselfe is at this day conuersant in the earth as he was conuersant in times paste Can any man doubt but in that he is man al Christian kings ought to be vnder his gouernment both in all eccl. and in those secular causes that may promote the cause of the Chruche for he shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and there shal be no ende of his kingdomes If therefore earthly Kings are parte of the house of Iacob Christ shall raigne ouer them and shall subdue their Kingdomes to hys spirituall Kingdome But whatsoeuer power was necessarye vnto Christe to eternall saluation he transformed the externall and and visible ministerie thereof vnto the Apostles when he said as my father hath sent me so I send you The Apostles therefore and their successors doe no lesse rule in spiritual causes ouer Christian Kings so far as the visible Ministerie than Christ himselfe is in truth ouer them so farre as the holy power of his humaine nature VVherevpon sayth Epiphanius Christ hath giuen a kingdome to those that are placed vnder him that it should not be sayde he proceedeth from little things to greater The throne of Christ abideth and of his kingdome there is no ende and he sitteth vpon the throne of Dauid so that he hath translated the kingdome of Dauid together with the Bishoprike and hath giuen it vnto his seruaunts that is to the Bishops of the Catholike Church Beholde so well the priestly as the Kingly power is communicated to the pastors of the Churche of Christe that by that meanes Christ shoulde be declared to raigne for euer yea euen as a spirituall and heauenly man And this truelye dothe that annoynting testifie that the Kings receyue of Priests The argument is thus If Christ himselfe were conuersant in earth in his humaine nature as he hath bene he shoulde haue ouer all Christian kings all eccl. and secular power in those things that might promote the Church But Christ hath giuen to his ministers in the visible ministerie all the power necessarie to saluation ouer Christian kings that belongeth to himselfe in his humaine nature Ergo he hath giuen his Ministers in the visible ministerie all ecclesiasticall and secular power in those things that maye promote the Church First this argument standeth vpon another presupposal which as it is no lesse false than the other so is it more impossible being flat contrarie to the worte of God and to the will of christ He puttes a case that Christ woulde come againe and in his humaine nature be conuersant vpon the earth as he was from his natiuitie till his death Good Lord M. Saūders is your cause so bad and false that you are still driuen to these shiftes to put the cases of false and forged presupposals if your cause were good it woulde stand of it selfe you might go plainely to worke and neuer reason vpon suche deuised cases as you knowe and beleue shall neuer be true except you be a Millenarie indéede as you gaue before a shrewde suspition of that heresie to think Christ shall come againe and here for a thousand yeares in all worldly might and glorie raigne in the earth and then go dwell in heauen But perhaps you wil say what wil you let me to put what case I lyft when the sky falles they say we shal haue Larkes True M. Saunders we can not let you to put what case you lyst be it neuer so absurde and repugnant to the truth But is this the rediest way to boult out the truth to put the case of an euident vntruth and to imagine that to come that neuer shall be to inferre that vsurpation of your Priestes that is and ought not to be But sée howe sone your argument is ouerturned For if your case be not admitted then is all your labour loste and you haue wonne nothing for your Priestes But the Scripture is manifest that this shall neuer come to passe And that the heauens containe Christ til the day of Iudgement he is neither here
giue the aduersaries occasion of sclaundering him For if they yea eueÌ„ vvithout this perfecuted him as a seditious person how much more would they haue persecuted him if he had accepted the kingdome offered of the people Thus euen til this day fleeth he froÌ„ those that only seeke carnall things in him bycause no parte of his spiritual giftes loketh on theÌ„ he despiseth them that are occupied about vile bags â–ª to vvit being giuen to their belly filthinesse He only giueth himselfe to them that seeke spirituall things in him that can say our coÌ„uersation is in heauen Not without cause therfore Christ here fled being sought for vnto a kingdome vvho being sought for vnto deathe offered himselfe freely For first by this he condemned our pryde or coueteousnesse or ambition or deintinesse Secondly he taught to contemne the glorie of the vvorlde than the vvhiche nothing is more vaine and not to feare the aduersitie of the vvorlde than the vvhiche nothing is more shorte Thirdly he taught heerein that those things are but small that in the worlde seeme to be mostegreat They thought they had offered Christe a great thing but he despised it as a litle thing VVe are far of an other iudgement Whom he meaneth by this vve loke a litle before concerning theÌ„ that offered the kingdome to christ This fact saith he declareth what the flesh seeketh in Christ euen his ovvn Cosins that is to say fleshly humaine things Christe is set forth before vs that in him we should seeke the forgiuenesse of sinnes righteousnesse eternal life But the carnall man seeketh nothing in him but licence carnall libertie and the filling of the paunche For hee that is of the earth speaketh and thinketh of earthly thinges yea suche is the nature of the fleshe that it abuseth all the giftes of God and seeketh farre other things in them than God woulde So the fleshely man in the creatures that are giuen to our vse and to this that God might be knowne and feared seeketh no other thing than pleasure And when by theÌ„ he ought to be caried vnto the creator he sticketh in theÌ„ and worshippeth theÌ„ So in the lawe which was giuen of God for the knowledge of sinne the carnall Iewes sought righteoushesse euen as the Papistes doe and so nowe also all those carnall men that in the power of the sworde seeke not that that God wil but only ambition pryde c. yea and that in these thinges that appertaine to the spirituall gouernement those carnall Pastors seeke onely honor ryches idlenesse delightes when as Christ ordeined them to be teachers guides Apostles c. For no other cause than for the edifying of his bodie Thus saith Frier Ferus againste his owne fleshely spiritualtie séeking in Christes spirituall kingdome a worldly kingdome which for these causes abouesaide and not onely for the originall that Maister Saunders here onely mentioneth he refused to be made a King. The like shift Maister Saunders vseth to the other place Luc. 12. of Christs refusall to be a iudge betwene the brethreÌ„ for the diuision of their inheritance saying who made me a iudge or deuider ouer you as though he shoulde say neither the common weale hath made me a iudge neither the Emperor hath made me a iudge As thoughe Christ refused to be their iudge not for that he would not be such a iudge â—…ut for that he was not made such a iudge by humaine authoritie For of such a iudge saith he these brethren thought whether they thought him to be such a iudge or no iâ—… not apparant Maister Saunders and if we may go by coniectures probabilities it rather séemeth the contrarie For neicher could they sée any such tokens in him to haue bin authorised from those that were â—…hen the Magistrats his words going before do argue they could not conueniently so thinke of him both ratling vp the Phariseis that had the humaine authoritie bidding his Disciples not to mistrust what to answere when they shoulde come before the powers Magistrates which these brethren hearing might easily conceiue that Christ himselfe was no such earthly Magistrate But to the causes wherfore Christ refused it that as before euen of the Papists mouthes themselues Hofmeister one of your sloutest champions hath these words Truely those things that haue bin spokeÌ„ and heard from the beginning of this Gospel do ynough declare the kingdom of Christ not to be of this world neither that he would raigne temporally in the world sith he taketh not souldiors that caÌ„ oppugne others but fishermeÌ„ readier to suffer thaÌ„ to strike And so in this place with most manifest wordes Christ declareth that he came not for this purpose to take vpon him the office of a Magistrate but rather that he might raigne in our harts so that it might be our hap to come to the eternal goods whatsoeuer hapned of our tem porall goods Therfore when he was interrupted of a certaine Iewe that he would helpe him in recouering his inheritance he aunswered Man who hath made me a ludge or deuider ouer you As though he shoulde say hath not this worlde iudges that may decide so base controuersies it is not appointed vnto me that this or that man shoulde waxe rich by inheritance but that all men should come to the inheritance of life immortall But in these words Christ woulde betoken many things to wit that he which hath an Apostolicall office ought not to be wrapped with prophane and silthie affaires For so the Apostle saith otherwhere No maÌ„ going to warfare vnder God entangleth himselfe with worldly businesse And the Apostles say all at once it is not meete foÌ„r vs to leaue the word of God and attend on the tables Christ also by this reprouing woulde declare that his doctrine taketh not away the Magistrates offices but rather confirmeth theÌ„ VVhervpon he saith also else where render to Cesar that that is Cesars And wheÌ„ his Disciples striued for prehemineÌ„ce he said â–ª the kings of the nations gouerne them so forth VVhereby he declared that neither he himself nor his ought as they call theÌ„ to be secular iudges neither did he by this refusing abolishe the order of the Magistrate but much more as we haue said confirmed it Thus far your owne Doctor Hofmeister againste you that the entent of Christe refusing to be a iudge herein was chiefely against such vsurpation of worldly Magistracie as the Pope and his Prelates do exercise But say you Christ in that he was appoynted of God to be iudge by his incarnation concerning that parte he saide vnto them that they should beware of couetousnes for he saw that they draue not as yet their inheritance to a spirituall ende that they might beare the iudgement of Christ. As who should say if they had béen Christians he would then haue béen a temporall iudge ouer them that is to say if they had done their duetie
Act 8. Fornication Sethiâ—…ni August â–ª de Haeresib Orders of Angels Carpocratians Theodoretus Iâ—…naeus Traditions Caynites Thâ—…odoret Iâ—…uocation of angels Theodotians Theodoret. Authoritie of Gods worde 〈◊〉 Theodoret. Silence Theodoretus The image of Christe Cerdoniaâ—…s for reiecting ensamples of the old Testament Montanistes â–ª for superstitious lavves of fasting Vnwritten veritiâ—…s Nicephor Theodoret. The authoritie of Gods worde abrogated Mysteries Confession of our selues to be sinfull Offerings Blynde prophecâ—…es Contempt and dissolution of matrimoniâ—… for religion The Tessarescedecatitae Apocrypha Bookes forged in the fathers names Augustious Seuerians Inspirations dreames reâ—…elations visions traunces miracleâ—… The Ticiani August Renunciation of mariage The Alogiani August Vnvvritten verities The Angelici Worship of Angels August Apostolici Apostolike title Refusall of mariage Communitie of goodes August The Manichei Forsaking mariage Aug. con Faus Manich. Abstinence Continence The forsaking of al things Addition and diminution to the Scripture The pretence of the Scripture Authoritie Apostolicall Fleshe and white meate Proprietie of goodes The Hierachitae Single life The Aerians August de Haere The Psalliani Euchiâ—…ae Mumbling vp of prayers Idle Monkes Frasmus de Precatione vocali tit 19. pro posi 1. Aug. de haere The Pattalorincâ—…ae Silence The Aquarij August ibideÌ„ Waâ—…er with the wyne in the sacrament August ibideÌ„ Barefoote hereukes The Priscillianistes Dissembling and keeping no faith nor promise August ibid. Destinie of starres and pla nettes A Caueat against popishe Almanacks Sigeberâ—…ns The Acephali Women Deacons August Sepâ—…on of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 The bookes called Apocrypha authorised Allegories Theodoretus The Messalians Praying sleeping and eating Reuelations Fleeing of haÌ„dycraâ—…s Celles â—…ightes Purgatorie August Epiphanius The abbeyes of idle Monkes in the olde tyme burned Wherein the Papistes differ from the Messalians Epiphanius The Aetians Epiphanius Simple fornication The Theophroniani The schoolemens subtill quiddities The Aerians Continencie The Colliridiani Sacrificers and offerers to the blessed Virgin Marie The Anthropomorphitae The picture forme of god Aug con haer A three formed God. The PelagiaÌ„â—… Aug. li 1. â—…on â—…ul cap. 5. Original sinne Arbitrement and wyll Pighius de orig peccato Aug. de peccatorum meritis cap. 19. Pighius ibideÌ„ Free will. Hilarius Arela ad Aug. Prosper de ingratis Pighi ibidem Hier. in epist. ad Ctesiphont Fulfilling gods lawe Prosper â–ª in epist. ad Augu. de reliquijs Pelag. haereseos Three sortes of Grace PredestinatioÌ„ Prosper ad August Ibidem Hilar. A relat in epistola ad August Aug. lib 2. de bono perseuerantiae cap. 14. Iustification Augu. cont 2. epist. Pel. li. 1. cap. 21. Li. 4. ca. 2. Faith. Hieron in dialog aduers. Pelag. Good workes Discip. serm 162. Deadly sinne Pigghi de peccato orig The Eutychians The coâ—…founding the propernes of chri stes humanitie with his diuinitie Transubstantiation the verie doctrine of the Eutychians and an heresie patched vp of many heresies Theodoretus dial 2. Inconfusus The heretikes argument of TransubstantiatioÌ„ to proue his heresie The replie of the true catholike againste Transubstâ—…tiatioÌ„ to proue the humanitie of Christ to be vncoÌ„founded Stapl. 18. a Stapl. fol. 58. a Stap. fol. 58. a. Master Stapletons charge to vs that we bâ—… Donatists Sta. fol. 58. a. Sta. fol. 58. a. M. Stapl. taketh witnes of his fellowe Matth. 18. Luc. 2. Matth. â—…1 1. Cor. 1. 1. Iohn 2. De symbolo ad 〈◊〉 Math. 13. From whence these sects did spring Secteâ—… of religions among the Papistes Chaucers opinion of Friers The sectes of Scholemen Stapl. 58. b The Donatists vaâ—…t of multitude The Papistes Donatists in craking of multitude The ioy of Christians in the gospells prosperitie Matth. 11. Luke 10. Matth. 9. Psalme 126. The consolation of Christians in the persecution of the Gospell Fleing in persecution Heb. 11. 3. Reg 19. DistinctioÌ„ betwen persecution it selfe the cause of it Stapl. 58. b The Donatists leauing the doctrine fel to rayling What a notable grace of railing M. Stapl. hath aboue all the Popishe writers Stapl. 58. b The Donatists refused the known churche Difference betwenee the Churche of Rome then the churche of Rome now The Papistes Donatists that tye the church to a place We depende not on Geneua and Wirtenberge as the Papistes depeÌ„d on Rome Chrysosto in Math. 24. homil 49. Dist. 23. Ca. Legimus Why the churche is holy and catholike Stapl. 58. b The Popes Donatisticall impudencie 6. Stapl. 59. â—… The Donatistes pretended many false visions A tale deuised of a deade man to slaunder the Gospel withal Stapl. 59. a. In li. Teut. ad Senat. Germa Act. 5. False visions is one of the chefest practises and foundation of the Popishe churche not of the protestantes 7. Stapl. 59. a Nationall and general councels 8. Stap 59. a. A generall defection 2. Thess. 2. Sessione 4. Orthwinus Gratius in Fasciculo rerum sciendarum 9. Stapl. 59. â—… The beginning continuance and succession The beginning of our doctrine Chrysost. in Matth. Cyprian ad Pomp. Fsai. 8. Math. 11. Matth. 21. The begynning of the popish doctrines besides the Scripture Sessione 4. Cyprian ad Pomp contr ad cpâ—… Steph. Dist. 2. Can. Si consuetudineÌ„ Distin. 11. Hoc vestr Ordinarie succession of Bishops Succession of the person and succession of the doctrine The Papistes can not sufficientlye proue so muche as the succession of the person 10. Stapl. 59. b Fleeing for succoure to euill Princes The Pope run ning to a traitor gat of him his supremacie Stâ—…pl 59. b 11. The Donatists crueltie to the Catholikes Optatus vvrested The Papists in horrible crueltieâ—… farre passe the Donatistes Put to this the horrible murder in Fraunce since this was vvritten Stapl. 59 b. 12. Vaunâ—… of scriptures and coÌ„playâ—…t of the Princeâ—… Charâ—… The allegation of the only Scripture for doctrine no sufficienâ—…e argument of a Donatist 1. Cor. 2. 1. Cor. 11. Gal. 1. Hovv vvebring the only Gospell Hovve the Papistes herein playe the Donatistes partes 13. Muâ—…hering canonizing of saintes Bonif 8. Stapl. 60. a The Papistes and Donatistes vvorship of the dead What memoriall of Saintes vve kepâ—… Iohn 4. Thomas Beckets death no martyrdome Canonization of Saincts Stapl. 61. b. Stapl 61. b. The motiues that moued the Bishop to chalenge M. Feckfor folovving the Donatistes practise The Princes especiall seruice of Christ. Howe the Papistes play the Donatists partes Stapl. 61. b Stapl. 62. a Sta. fol. 61. b How M Feck expresly denieth and yet inclusiâ—… graâ—… teth the examples of the old Testament Supra pag. 344. Stap. 62. a M. Stapl. here bewrayeth the very cause why M. Feck forsooke the examples of the olde TestameÌ„t bicause they made against him Luke 16. M. Stapl. defendeth Mast. Feck agaynste his own know ledge and coÌ„science Hieremie â—… Stap. 62. a Stapl. 62. a. Stapl. 62. b 1. Reg. 17. Iudith 14. 1. Cor. 1. How the Donatists and the Papists alledge the olde Testament alike Stapl 62. b Silence argueth not always assent Olde