Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	apostle_n	church_n	word_n	1,489	5	3.9514	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sin● and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant

not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent A● for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do

and the Ceremonies when they know in their Consciences they are not sinful And then to hear you call it Bibble-babble Porridge or such like vile names without any reproof is still worse But if you hear themselves speak against the Common Prayer and the Ceremonies there is the greater reason to have a vehement suspicion of their Dishonesty because they decry that which in their Consciences they allow N.C. I am not fully satisfied of that C. Why did many of them deliberate so long whether they should accept of Dignities in the Church if they did not believe it lawful to hear the Prayers and to put even the Babylonish Garment as you will needs call the Surplice upon their backs and more than that to wear the very Rags of the Whore the Lawn sleeves If it was so plain a business that their Conscience and their Covenant would not let them conform one would think they should have professed it openly without any more ado And therefore I conclude that Pause and Deliberation was about something else not about matters of Conscience but of Interest and Policy As Whether the people would take it well and not laught at them as so many Magpies got upon a Perch whether it would not be a scandalous thing that is not for their Credit and Reputation whether they could not hold such a Party with them in Non-conformity as would balance the Episcopal and so force them at least to a Toleration In short whether they should not lose the Affections of their own party which they had already made and win very little upon the Affections of others whom they had so much disobliged in the late Troubles These were their secret Debates in their Cabals the weighty Points that were to be stated in those Consultations You Good man think perhaps that they spent their time in Fasting and Seeking God to direct their Consciences No no it was not their Conscience but their Credit which then lay at stake N.C. Why should you think so C. Because I have heard some of them acknowledge they did not scruple what we do but thought it unhandsom for them to do it Sometimes they put it in a more Religious phrase and said it would give a great scandal to the world who would think the worse of the Profession of Christianity But the meaning was in plain English that they were ashamed to confess their Error and to set up those things again which they had rashly pulled down N.C. And would you not have men to consult their Credit C. Yes but not so much as the peace of the Church of God We ought to deny our selves and be content to be put to shame for God's sake which is indeed true Glory and there is little of God among them that seek not Peace though on those terms Besides there can no account be given of their Behavior since in cherishing this Fancy among you or suffering it to grow that Conformity is unlawful unless it be this that they think it will make more for their Reputation among you if you believe it was Conscience not care of their own Credit Estimation that kept them from Conforming N.C. You are the severest man that ever I knew and love to search too far into the reason of things C. Would you would do so too for then you would soon be of my mind N.C. No not as long as one Scruple remains in my mind C. What 's that N. C. I have heard some of them call yours Will-worship which the Apostle condemns Col. 2. ult C. Very likely they might and not understand what they said N.C. Do you believe they would like brute Beasts speak evill of things they know not C. I will not censure them of that but this I can tell you that one of your Ministers confessed to a sober person of my acquaintance that he had never so much as read over the Common-Prayer-book in all his life and yet he was no Youngster Perhaps there may be more such and then if they speak against it judge of them as you see Cause N. C. I believe such men dislike it without looking into it because as I told you it is Will-Worship a meer invention of man C. That 's a word of S. Paul whom no doubt they have read but I question whether they understood him N. C. Why should you doubt it C. Because if we take the sense of the Word not from Fancy but from the matter wherewith it is connected it makes nothing for your purpose but rather much against you N. C. Can you tell better than they C. I do not say so but I have heard one of our Ministers give such an Explication of the place as satisfied me that you use a Weapon which wounds your selves N. C. Let 's hear it C. If you look a little back you will find the Apostle forbids Worshipping of Angels v. 18. as a bold invention of men for which there was no Revelation And then he speaks against such superstitious people whether Jews or others the minister could not tell us as made it unlawful to Marry to eat some kind of Meats to touch or come near some things none of which God hath made sinful but they were the meer Commandments of men v. 21.22 Now those that were of this Humour he immediately after v. 23. charges with Will-Worship Which must consist therefore one would think in these two things First In giving the Worship due to God to some Creature or other Secondly in enjoyning that as a thing necessary and commanded by God as a piece of his VVorship and Service which he hath left indifferent or in other words when any thing is so enjoyned to be done or not done as if it were the Will Command of God he should be so served when it is a meer Constitution of the Will of Man then a Will-Worship is erected Now I am sure you will not make us guilty of the First fort of Will-Worship because none are more against it than we As for the Second our Church hath declared to all the World that none of the things you boggle at are imposed under the Notion of Necessary or Religious in themselves or as commanded by God but are of an indifferent Nature and only used as decent and comely in the judgment of the present Governors who can alter these things and constitute something else in the room if they see it fit which they could not pretend to did they think them necessary But then as our Church is not guilty of Will-Worship in the Apostles Sense so on the other side I know not how to excuse those from that very guilt who oppose what is ordained among us as unlawful and forbid us to use those Rites and Orders because sinful things For they make that necessary to be forborn and left undone which God hath not made so but left indifferent and so they in effect condemn those as Sinners whom God acquits from