of the catholique positions sett downe by me admitted and acknowledged as true and orthodoxe then is not the contradictorie position inforced or imposed vppon them to prooue But if they reiect all the Catholicke positions as false and erroneous as they will be found to doe then must they whether they will or noe acknowledge the contradictorie position to be theirs vnles they will graunt that both contradictorie positions may be true or both false which noe man euer yett admitted And thus much sir for your charge of forged positions in generall now we will examine the particular PILK POSITIO I. Forged positions All Articles of faith are contayned expressly in holy Scripture CHAMP Of this position thus sett downe it is true you say that it is forged but it is by your selfe not by mee for it is no where sett downe by me The position of mine which you aime at beinge this page 20. vnder this note Protestant position 1. All articles of faith are so expresselie contained in scripture as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof Which position if you will denie to be yours take here your owne wordes in witnes against you If you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture I am content to bringe your owne Testimonie onlie in a thinge so manifest without further proofe out of other of your owne sect Onlie I cannot sufficientlie marueyle what complexion you are of that haue so littell care and feelinge of your owne credit and of the cause you would defend that you committ so manie fowle fayles in so fewe lines Certainlie if you hold on in this manner you shall haue the prise of all either falle or foolishe fellowes that euer blotted paper but let vs proceede further PILK POSITIO II. All places of holy scriptures contayninge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode CHAMP You fayle in puttinge downe this position also so harde it is for you to deale honestlie which in the Manuall is sett downe thus All places of holy scripture contayninge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe where of is damnable are easie to be vnderstoode and therefore require noe rule to be interpreted by Which proposition you cannot denie to be yours without denyinge your selfe For doe you not remember that in your third Antithesis you say I contradict S. Epiphaniu for sayinge that the scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode why doe you therfore denie this position All places of scripture contain 〈…〉 matters of faith are easie to be vnderstoode here sett downe by you to be yours vnles you will also coÌ„tradict that holy Father which you falselie obiect vnto me but it is is a bootles thinge to tell you of contradictions they are so frequent with you Therfore to lett that passe that you may knowe if you were so ignorant in your owne doctrine as you knewe it not before that it is good protestant doctrine heare your Father and founder Luther what he saith of his matter We must geue this sentence the scripture beinge iudge that it is of it selfe most certaine most easie most open or apparant interpreter of it selfe proouinge all thinges iudgeing all thinges and illustratinge all thinges And in another place I say of the whole scripture I will haue noe part thereof to be obscure And this shall suffice for the present to purge me of forgerie in this matter hauinge more to say thereof hereafter when we shall come to speake of the article it selfe if we goe together so farre PILK POSITIO III. The true churche of Christ is not necessarilie Catholike or vniuersall neither in respect of tyme nor place CHAMP This position you sett downe trulie which I maruel that you denie to be yours Bycause the contradictorie position being admitted for true as it must necessarilie be if this be false your protestant churche which noe witt nor coninge can euer shewe to haue hadd either kinde of vniuersalitie must of necessitie be a forged or counterfait churche And for what other cause thinke you did Luther in the Creede turned by him into Dutch in steede of the Catholicke churche thrust in the Christian churche but to auoyde the force of the worde Catholicke which he did so dislike that his disciples in the conferrence att Altemberge reiected a certayne proposition ascribed to him wherein was this worde Catholicke â—lleadginge for a sufficient reason of theire so doinge because that worde Catholicke did not sauour Luthers phrase And for full proofe that this position is truly protestanticall reade the laborious booke De authore essentia protestanticae Ecclesiae authore Richardo Smitheo printed this yeare containinge tenne ineuitable demonstrations taken out of the protestants owne doctrine that Luther was the author of the sayde protestants churche whence it necessarilie is concluded that in theire doctrine the true church is not necessarilie Catholicke neither in respect of tyme or place PILK POSITIO IV. The true churche of Christ may be without a lawfull personnall succession CHAMP If you denie this position to be true in your doctrine then must you necessarilie graunt the contradictorie to be true which if you doe your newlie reformed churche will euidentlie appeare no lawfull churche And for further proofe of the want of succession of pastours in your Englishe Churche I referr you to my booke in answere to Mr. Mason which till it be answered I say answered indeede and not onlie replyed vnto in a heape of wordes as you haue donne to my Manuall I shall euer holde as a sufficient proofe and as for your Sister churches of Fraunce they make profession in theire verie confession of theirâ— faith that the state of the churche haueinge been interrupted it was necessarie that God shoulde raise vppe men by extraordinarie meanes to repaire his church a newe which was ruined Iudge you therefore whether they denie the position which you say is forged by me against you PILK POSITIO V. The lawfull succession of pastours may be without Consecration or authenticall mission by anie ordinarie power residinge in the Churche CHAMP If you houlde your Sister churches of France to be lawfull churches you cannot denie this position to be true in your doctrine as appeareth by theire confession euen nowe alleaged whereunto I referr you And as for the consecration of your pastours of your newe churche of Englande it is so farr from beinge ordinarie that it was neuer hearde of before Kinge Edwarde the sixt his raigne when first it was deuised as I haue euidentlie prooued in my booke against Mr. Mason And therefore thoughe you would seeme to denie this position in worde yett must you necessarilie admitte it in deede vnles you wil graunt freelie that which is true that you haue no true pastours att all PILK POSITIO VI. It is not necessarie for euerie mans
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
saluation that he be baptized CHAMP It seemeth you haue not yett learned the rudiments of your religion seinge you number this position amoÌ„gst those that you esteeme forged against you See therefore for your better instruction in this point of Catechisme your grande maister in reformation Iohn Caluin in Antidoto Concilij ad Sess cap. 5. and lib. 4. instit cap. 16. § 24. 25. Peter Martyr another of your maysters vppon these wordes of the Apostle Alinqui filij vesiri in mundi essent 1. Cor. Fulke Marci 1. Sect. 5. with the whole crue of Puritans or Caluinistes Or if you will not looke so farr see the first dayes conferrence of Hampton Courte and see what you finde there of this point And either blushe at your ignorance in the principales of your religion or if you like not the doctrine leaue the companie where it is taught and vnite your selfe to the Catholicke Churche where it is abhorred PILK POSITIO VII Matrimonie contracted betweene Christians is but a ciuill contract CHAMP You are soone wearie of honest dealinge and quicklie returne to your accustomed falsifications I doe blushe in your behalfe that I am forced to tell you so often of it in so fewe lines The position in the Manuall addeth to the wordes sett downe by you And not Sacrament properlie Which if you had added you would haue been ashamed to haue saide the position to be forged If you will cauill say that thoughe it be no Sacrament yett is it not a bare ciuill contract I will not stande here to debate that question with you beinge not materiall to my purpose which was to prooue Matrimonie to be a Sacrament accordinge to the catholicke doctrine aboue and besides the ciuill contract therein contayned and if you should be vrged to shewe in the precise nature of matrimonie anie thinge more then a ciuill contract seeinge you denie it to be a SacrameÌ„t you would I knowe be troubled and would not easilie quitte your selfe of that bussines And Caluin whose authoritie is of some weight with you compareth it to the arte of husbandrie barbinge and weauinge lib. 4. Instit cap. 18. § 34. PILK POSITIO VIII Baptisme and the lordes supper are not instruments of Grace but onlie signes of gods good will towardes vs or meanes to stirre vppe faith in vs. CHAMP Heere againe I am constrained to tell you of your false dealinge The position sett downe by me is this Neither Baptisme nor the other Sacraments of the newe lawe geue grace as cause thereof but are onlie signes of gods good will towardes vs or meanes to stirre vppe Fayth in vs. What materiall diuersitie you will finde betwixt this position and the 25. article of your churche I knowe not It saith thus Sacraments be not onlie badges or tokens of christian mens profession but rather they be certaine sure witnesses and effectuall signes of grace and gods good-will towardes vs by which he doth worke inuisiblie in vs and not onlie quicken but also confirme and stregthen our fayth in him And your maister in reformation Caluin speaketh yett more conformablie to the position sett downe by me heare his owne wordes This onlie office is inioyned to the Sacraments to witnes to vs and confirme in vs gods good will And againe The Sacraments are to vs from God as are messengers of gladd bidinge from men or as an ernest pennie in stricking couenants as not geueinge anie grace of themselues but declare and shewe and as they are earnest money or tokens doe ratifie in vs those thinges which by gods liberalitie are geuen vnto vs. And for more cleare explication of his meaninge he vseth in the 18. Section follwinge the examples of the raynbowe and of Gedions fleece And this shall suffice for this present to cleare me of forgerie and to prooue you ignorant in the principales of your owne erroneous doctrine vnles peraduenture you be ashamed of it and therefore denie it to be yours PILK POSITIO IX Iustification is onlie remission of sinnes CHAMP You are as obstinate in false dealinge as if you had sworne neuer to deale truelie The position in the manuall is sett downe in these wordes Iustification is onlie the remission of sinnes without renmation of spirit or interiour Sanctification which position if you dare to denie to be trulie protestanticall all those of your sect that haue written of Iustification will condemne you of ignorance in theire doctrine PILK POSITIO X. By Iustification sinne is onlie couered and not quite taken away CHAMP Why did you omitte to say as I said seeing the position sett downe by me is so breife in these wordes By Iustification sinne is onlie couered or not imputed and not washed or quite taken away Surelie for noe other cause I thinke but to keepe your selfe in custome with clippinge and gueldinge as he did that did steale strawes to keepe his fingers in we with filchinge but peraduenture you feared the worde not imputed so often abused by your maysters and the worde washed vsed in the holy Scriptures Howsoeuer your errour in imputinge to me sorgerie in this position is not pardonable Cannot you vtter one position but with manifest falsification or palpable ignorance or both Reade onlie the seconde article of Luther for I will trouble you with no moe referrences att this tyme and see his doctrine in this point His wordes are these It is another thinge that al sinnes are remitted and another that all sinnes are taken away Baptisme doth remitte all but it taketh none quite away but beginneth onlie to take them away Againe your knowne doctrine of imputatiue and not inherent iustice doth it not necessarilie inforce you to say that our sinnes are only couered or not imputed but not washed and quite taken away PILK POSITIO XI Man thoughe holpen by Gods grace hath not free will either to fly ame euill or to doe good auaylinge to his Saluation but in both is forced to doe that which God hath ordayned he shoulde doe CHAMP This position haue you trulie sett downe But why doe you say that it is forged The sole title of your first maister Luther his booke de seruo arburio might haue taught you that it is his professed doctrine Reade further his 36. article where besides manie other thinges to this purpose he hath these expresse wordes I said ill that freewill before grace is a meere rule But I shoulde haue sayde that frewill is a fiction or a title without the thinge Because it is in no mans power to thinke either good or badd but all thinges as Wicleffe his article condemned at Constance ri helie teacheth doe happen by absolute necessitie And thus you see Sir your Catalogue of antithesis and roll of forged posiâ—ions which you muster in the beginninge of your booke to deceiue your lâ—sse warie reader and disgrace your aduersarie is blowne away more easilie then a Cop-webb is broken with the winde to your owne irrecouerable disgrace and
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say