for the excommunication By whych testimonies besydes the institution of God the practise of the churches in the apostles times appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touchyng excommunication as long as there was any purity in the church And it is to be obserued heere that bothe in thys parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes thyngs were referred vnto the Synodes prouincial nationall or generall as the case required so if the elders of any church shall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the partyes whych are greeued may haue recourse for remedy vnto the elders and pastoures of dyuers churches that is to say vnto Synodes of shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuenient by the church according to the difficulty or waight of the matters whych are in controuersy Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of suche difficultyes whych the seuerall presbyteries can not so well iudge of but also to the ende that common counsell myght be taken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those thyngs whych can not be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those whych for their hardnesse can not be there decided must be brought into the Synodes of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bene done in the apostles times and in the churches whych followed them long after These thyngs standing in thys sorte all those Courtes of byshoppes and archbyshoppes must needes fall whych were by Antichrist erected against thys lawfull iurisdiction of Eldership as the courte of faculties and those whych are holden by chauncellors commissaries officials and suche lyke the describyng of the corruptions wherof would require a whole boke of whych I will note the principall heads and summes First for the they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vnto them but to euery particulare church and especially to the eldershyp or gouernoures of the church and therfore although they should do nothing but that whych were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labors vnto men much les to God puttyng their sickle in an other mannes harnest For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement if hys yea were yea and hys nay nay consydering that he sayd before that thys iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should pertaine vnto the Byshop as he is called to whom notwythstanding it dothe not appertaine yet were it not lawfull for hym to translate thys office vnto an other and to appoynt one to doe it when he lysteth no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of ministring as preaching the worde and ministring the sacraments An other thyng is that in these courts whych they cal spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are meere ciuil therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted in seuering the ciuill causes from the ecclesiasticall but iustling also wyth the ciuill magistrate and thrusting hym from the iurisdiction whych appertaineth vnto hym as the causes of the contracts of mariage of diuorces of willes testaments with diuers suche other like things For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof to shew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iust cause of diuorce and so forthe yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do appertaine vnto the ciuill magistrate Heerevnto may be added that all their punishments almost are penalties of mony whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church but is a thyng meerely ciuill Thirdly as they handle matters whych do not appertain vnto the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction so those whych do appertaine vnto the church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable whych M. doctor hym selfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Last of all they take vpon them those thyngs whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to doe of whych sorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition and same confessed by M. Doctor I will not heere speake of the vnfitnes of those whych are chefe offycers in these courts that the most of them are eyther papists or bribers or drunkardes I know what I wryte or epicures and such as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland doing nothing of those things whych appertaine vnto them and of other suche naughty persons whych are not only not meete to be gouernors in the church but whych in any reformed church shoulde not be so much as of the church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do the whych they do of conscience and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche whych I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe them selues in their vocations and being men for their giftes apte and able either to serue the Church or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupye theyr gifts there then where they haue no grounde to assure them selues that they doe please god Now I will take a short suruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of master of faculties chancellors c. First he sayth in the 117 page out of the Ancyran councel that there were vicars of bishops wher although y name be not foūd of chācclors c. yet there is sayth he the office What vicar s Paules B. may haue and in what case I haue shewed before where I haue proued the necessary residence of euery pastor in his flock But I will note heere how M. Doctor both goe about to abuse hys reader in these vicares And first where there were three editions of which one only maketh mention of these vicares he tooke that left the other which is to be obserued for that thys varietie of editions rose of the diuers vnderstanding of the greke word chorepiscopos which may be taken eyther for hym that is byshop for an other and in hys place or for hym that is byshop in the country that is in some towne which is no citie so that chorepiscopus was opposed vnto the byshop which was of some citie And if it be so taken then here is no proofe for the vicarse of byshoppes But howsoeuer it be it shall appeare that the names of chauncelors and chorepiscopos doe not so much differ as the offices and functions of them For it appeareth in the same Councell and Canon that they were like the. 70. disciples
common wealth vnto the church 181. Drunkardes whoremongers c. papistes are neither of the church nor in the church 50. M. Doctors Clemens counterfait 88. c. Communion receiued by 2. or 3. the rest of the church departing not to be suffered 147. c. Papistes ought not to bee compelled to receiue the Communion of the Lord nor to be admitted if they offer them selues 167. c. Communicants what they be which must of necessitie be examined 164. c. Wherupon the ministring of the Communion in houses to sicke parsons rose 146. c. Common bread most conuenient for the Communion 164. c. Kneeling at the Communion daungerous and not so agreeable to the action of the supper as sitting 165. c Confirmation of children ought to be taken away 199. D  Deacons ordayning with vs in part examined 39 Deacons were in euery church 190. c. Deacons office is only in prouiding for the poore of the church 190. Deacons office perpetuall 191. Deacons may not preach nor baptise 161. DecoÌ„sh is no ordinary step to the ministery 163 Deanes in times past how much they differed from ours now 96. Disciplyne and gouernment of the church â—â—â— matters of fayth and saluation 26 Discipline standeth in 3. principall partes 183. Dyonisius Areopagita no archb but bish 91. M. doctors Dyonisius a counterfait 188 E  Elders in euery congregation in the Apostles times 173. c Elders necessary in euery churche of the causes of their office 175. c. Elders in euery church alwayes necessary but especially in the time of peace vnder a christen magistrate 178. c. Eldership was kept in the church vnder christian Emperors in the time of peace 182. Eldership fel out of the church through slouthfulnes ambition of the Doctors 182. Election of the ministers ought to bee by the church 44. c Pretended differences to alter the manner of election of the mynisters vsed in the primatiue church answered 49. c Election and ordination differ 58. c Euangelists no ordinary ministers 63. c. Excommunication doth not belong to one maÌ„ but vnto the church and especially to the minister and elders therof 184. c. F  Standing lawes of fasting brought in first by the hereticke Montanus 30. Augustines and Ambroses corrupt iudgement of fasting 30. G  We haue more certaine direction by the gospel in the whole seruice of God then the Iewes had by the lawe 35. c. Greater seuerity ought to be vsed against sins and especially against idolatry vnder the gospel then vnder the law 42. c There ought to be no more standing at the reading of the gospell theÌ„ at the reading of other scriptures 203 Churche Gouernment compounded of all the good formes of gouernment 51. H  The churches authoritye in makyng of Holy dayes 151. c Of the Apostles and saints dayes 152. c. Of homilyes reading in the church 81. 196. c I.  Iames no archbyshop but a byshop by Eusebius iudgement 91. There ought to be no more curtesy at the name of Iesus then at the other names of God. 203. M  Abuses in the celebration of maryage 196. c. Metropolitane byshop what that the name implieth no supertoritye 93. Metropolitanes very pore 108. 94. Ministers lordship one ouer an other eyther in office or name forbidden 22. c In what sorte and howe farre ministers are superiors one ouer another 109. c The cause of want of ministers with vs. 40. c. Ministers reuolting to idolatrye oughte not to be receiued againe to the ministery 40. Ministers may not exercise ciuill offices 206. O  Officials iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Ordination and election differ 58. c. Receiue the holy ghost an vnlawfull speache of the B. in ordaining ministers 62. c. P  Parishes not deuided by Denis the Monke but by the word of God. 69. Prayers not only in matter but also in forme ought to belike the prayers of the scripture 138 Particulare faultes in oure forme of Common prayer 136. c The name of Priest cannot agree vnto the minister of the gospell 198. Prophet no ordinary minister 63. c R  Reading is not preaching 160 Reading preaching the word compared 159 Residence or abiding in one certain place required of al ordinary ecclesiastical ministeries 60 Residence continuall and necessary of the minister in hys church 65. c S  Sacramentes oughte to be ministred after the word is preached 157. Sacramentes vnlawfully ministred in priuate houses 28. 142. c Scripture containing the direction of al things pertaining to the churche and of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life 26 Scriptures Canonicall ought only to be red in the church 196. c Singing of Psalmes in the church side by side corrupt 203. T  Theodoret a pore Metropolitane 115. Timotheus and Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste byshops 91. but in deede Euangelists 65 Aug. iudgement of traditions very corrupt 31 VV  Widowes in the churche to helpe the sicke and impotent in it 191 Women may not minister baptisme and howe this corruption came into the church 143. c Womens churching corrupt 150 ⧠To the Church of England and ALL THOSE THAT LOVE THE TRVETH IN IT T. C. wisheth mercy and peace from God our father and from our Lord Iesus Christ AS our men do more willingly go to warfare and fyght with greater courage agaynst straungers then agaynst theyr countreymen so it is with me in thys spirituall warfare For I would haue wyshed that thys controuersy had bene with the Papystes or with other if any can be more pestylent and professed ennemyes of the church for that should haue bene les griefe to wryte and more conuement to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an ennemy doth kyndle the desire of fyghting and stirreth vp the care of preparing the furniture for the warre So I can not tell how it commeth to passe that the name of a brother staketh that courage and abateth that carefulnes which should be bestowed in desence of the truth But seeing the truth ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lord myght lay it to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so ready as I ought to haue bene to publyshe the truth he myght more iustly condemne me if being oppugned and slaundered by others I should not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habylitie defend it and delyuer it from the euill report that some endeuor to bring vpon it And as vnto other partes of the gospell so sone as the Lord openeth a dore for them to enter in there is for the most part great resistance so in thys part concerning the gouernment and dyscipline of the church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctryne
of the house of the Lorde whych by his manifest commaundement ought to be done wyth all spede then besides that they be very vncunning builders whych can not mende the faultes wythout ouerthrow of all especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remembre that as the meane whych is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so is it called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous and superfluous braunches or whatsoeuer hindreth the groweth of the vine tree may be cut of wythout roting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are well established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is straunge that the pure doctrine of the one the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast togither that pure doctrine can not be wyth her safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather like vnto that part of Daniels image which was compounded of clay and iron therfore could not cleaue or sticke one with an other It is further sayde that the setters forwarde of thys cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the papists of slaundring the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be found to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessary about which we contende then hath thys accusation no grounde to stande on For peace is commended to vs with these conditions * if it be possible if it lye in vs Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the truth * we can do nothing agaynst it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better then a iust warre It is a dyuine saying of an Heathen man Agatheâ—d eris hede brotoisi It is good to contende for good thinges The papistes haue no matter of reioysing seeing they haue greater and sharper controuersies at home and seing thys tendeth both to to the further opening of theyr shame thrusting out of theyr remnantes which yet remayne among vs The weake may not be offended considering the euen in the church of God and among those of the church there hath bene as great varieties of iudgementes as these are For what waightier controuersyes can there be then whether we shall ryse agayne or no whether circumcision were necessary to be obserued of those which beleued And yet the first was amongst the church of the * Corinthes the other was first in * Ierusalem and Antioche and after in the churches of * Galatia and yet they the churches and that the true relygion which was there professed And it is to be remembred that these controuersyes for the most part are not betwene many For sondry of those thinges which are comprehended in the answere to the Admonition haue as I am perswaded few fauourers of those especially which are of any stayed or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other churches so that in deede the father of that answere excepted we haue thys controuersy oftentymes rather with the papistes then with those which professe the gospell as we do And whereas last of all it is sayde that thys procedeth of enuy of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause which is neyther enuyous singular nor popular and althoughe they be suche as myght be seuerally by great lykelyhodes and probalyties refuted yet because the knowledge of these thinges pertayneth only to God which is the searcher of the hart and raynes and for auoyding of too muche tediousnesse we will rest in his iudgement tary for the day wherein the secretes of hartes shall be made manyfest And yet all men do see how vniustly we be accused of singularity which propound nothing that the scriptures do not teache the wryters bothe olde and new for the most part affirme the examples of the primitiue churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme All these accusations as well agaynst the cause as the fauourers thereof albeit they be many and dyuers yet are they no other then which haue bene long sithens in the Prophets Apostles and our sauior Christes and now of late in our tymes obiected agaynst the trueth and the professors therof And therefore as the sunne of the truth then appeared brake through all those cloudes which rose agaynst it to stoppe the lyght of it so no doubt thys cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those slaunders could not bryng the truth in disgrace with those that loued it so the children of the truth through these vntrue reportes will neyther leaue the loue of thys cause which they haue already conceaued nor yet cease to enquire dyligently and to iudge indifferently of those surmises which are put vp agaynst it Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercomed all these lets and clymed ouer them when they were cast in our way to hynder vs from coming from the grosse darknes of popery vnto the gloryous lyght of the gospell there is no cause why now they should staye our course to further perfection considering that neyther the style is hygher nowe then it was before being the very selfe same obiections and in all thys tyme we ought so to haue growne in the knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the gospell that they should be as the fecte of a hynde hable to surmount euen a wall if neede were The summe of all is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without all miste of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent care without the waxe of preiudice the argumentes of both sides may be waighed not with the chaungeable waightes of custome of tyme of men which notwithstanding Popishe excepted shall be shewed to be more for the cause then agaynst it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible and vnchangeable worde of God. And I humbly beseeche the Lord to encrease in vs the spirite of knowledge and iudgement that we may discerne thinges which differ one from an other and that we may be syncere and wythout offence vntill the day of Christ The author to the reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentill reader that thou wouldest vouchsafe dyligently and carefully to compare M. Doctors answer and my reply both that thou mayst the better vnderstand the truth of the cause and that the vntempered speches of hym especially that whyppeth other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and hys lose conclusions which I haue to auoyde tedyousnes not so fully pursued may the better appeare Which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chefely I desire it may
disciplyne no church For they deny we haue the word or sacramēts because we hold not theyr word sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neyther any such antecedent or such a consequent for they neuer sayde that there is no ministerie in Englande nor yet do euer conclude that there is no worde no sacraments no dysciplyne nor church For in saying that the face of the church doth not so much appeare for so the whole proces of their booke doth declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarse the face of the church they graunt that we haue the church of God but that for want of those ornaments which it shuld haue and through certayne the deformed ragges of poperie which it should not haue the churche doth not appeare in her natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she should be prepared to so glorious a husband as is the sonne of god Say you certaynly and doe you beleue that the authors of thys booke are conspired wyth the papystes to ouerthrow thys church and realme Now certaynly I will neuer doe that iniury vnto them as once to go about to purge them of so manifest slaunders nor neuer be brought by the outrage of your speaches to proue that noone day is not mydnight And therfore as for you I will set your conscience and you together The reader I will desire not to thinke it a strange thing For it is no other then hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same relygion which they dyd as it appeareth in Ieremy whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites that he had conspyred with the Babylonyans their mortall ennemyes and layde to hys charge that he was going to them when he was going to Beniamin To the. 36. 37. 38. page IT maketh for the purpose whiche is alleaged out of the first of the actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chosen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that suche a one must be chosen as hathe bene contynually conuersant with our sauioure Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherein he ascended into heauen he ment nothing els but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene contynually a scholer of our sauioure Christe and therefore fitte to teache and to witnes that which they had seene and whose godly conuersation was notoriously knowne Besides that albeit those two Mathyas and Barsabas were therefore set vp in the myddest that the church in the prayer that was made for their election myghte by seeing them pray the earnestlyer for them yet it was also as much to say that if any could obiect any thing agaynst them that he should preferre hys obiection And whether they were examined or no the matter is not great neyther when it is sayde that a tryall should be had it is ment that when the parties are famously knowne to those whych haue the right of trying as that there shoulde be alwayes necessaryly an apposing and examyning so that the sufficiencie of doctryne and holynesse of lyfe for the whych cause the tryall and examynation is commaunded be knowne and agreed vpon by them that choose it is enough And so these two being notoriously knowne and consented of by the churche to bee fitte men myght happely not be examyned but yet the wordes of S. Peter declare playnly that in the choyse of them there was regarde had to both their abilitie to teach and honesty of conuersation And although there be certayne thinges extraordinary in this election as that such a one must be chosen which hadde bene conuersant with our fauioure Christ and that there were two put vp for one place and that it was permitted to lottes to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two as if the Lord should by the lottes from heauen tell who should haue it yet it followeth not to say that the rest of the things that are there vsed should not be practised in ordinary callinges for as much as they will well agree with them And M. Caluin in the place you alledge sayth that the ordinary callinges somwhat differ from the calling of the Apostles and after sheweth wherein that is in that they were appoynted immediatly of God and by his mouthe whereby it appeareth that for the residue of those thyngs whych are there mentioned he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections And where you saye that the sixt of the Actes because it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the matter me thynke you shoulde haue easely vnderstanded that if a triall be necessary in Deacons whych is an vnder office in the church and hath regard but to one parte of the church whych is the pore and is occupied in the distribution of money much more it ought to be in an office of greater charge which hath respect to the whole church and is occupyed in the dispensing of the holy word of God. But in the ende you agree that they shoulde be tryed so that nowe the quection standeth only howe and by what meanes wherein you for your part saye that the booke of ordering mynisters is a suffycient and good rule I haue red it and yet I can not commende it greatly But you will say not wyth iudgement or indifferencie I will promise you with this indifferencie that I wyshed that all that is there were good and conuenyent and such as I myght say vnto so be it Wyth what iudgement I doe disalow it I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons First that the examynation of hys doctryne wholely and partly of hys life is permitted to one man For consydering of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the mynisters and the horrible pearill that commeth vnto the church by the want of those thinges that are required in them and of the other parte wrighing the weakenesse of the nature of man which althoughe he seeth many thinges yet hee is blynde also in many and that euen in those thinges which he seeth he suffereth hym selfe to be caryed away by his affection of loue or of enuie c. I say considering these thinges it is very daungerous to commit that to the view and searche of one man which may wyth losse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers For herein the prouerbe is true plus vident oculi quam oculus And almost there is no office of charge in thys realme which lyeth in election committed so sleightly to any as that vpon one mans reporte of hys habilitie all the rest which haue interest in the election will geue their voyces so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scripture the very lyght of reason would shew vs a more safe and weryer way But there is greater authoritie for S. Luke in the first
must depose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian of whome as of Clement that went before and Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verifyed Aske my fellow if I be a theefe And although the answerer be ashamed of hym and sayth therefore he will omit him yet euen very neede dryueth hym to bring hym in and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can And thys honest man sayth that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ierusalem But Eusebius sayth Iames was byshop not archbyshop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the apostles And in an other place he sayth that the apostles dyd appoynt after hys death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas byshop of Ierusalem And Ireneus sayeth that the apostles in all places appoynted byshops vnto the churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Volusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambytious tytles of patriarche prymate metropolytane or archbyshoppe when as the storyes make mention that thoroughe out euery churche not chery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by apostles a byshop not an archbyshop was appoynted And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop which I will frame after thys sorte If there shoulde be any archbyshop many place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or minister and hys excellencie or in respecte of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent mynisters that euer were in the most famous places were no archbyshops but byshops only therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy that was Iames if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title then the mynisters of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the church there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since which also deserued great honoure for that there the * disciples were first called christians but neyther was that called the first and cheefest church neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle which ouer lyued the residue of the Apostles ordayned byshops in euery church These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned and stande vppon the pillery with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he which runneth may reade Some of the papistes them selues haue suspected them but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery full of blasphemy and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctryne And do you marke what you say when you say that these are but suspected Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or sone after or no for Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer and so you leaue it in dout whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe You come after to the councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the CCC xxx yeare of the Lorde when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation that it was holden Anno Domini CCC xx and heere you take so greate a leape that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke to skippe at once CCC yeares that is from the tyme of the apostles vntill the time of the councell of Nice wythout any testimony of any either father or storie of faithe and credite whych maketh once mention of an archbishop What no mention of hym in Theophilus byshop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustin Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story Was it for his basenes and smalnes that he could not be seene amongst the byshops elders and deacons being the cheefe and principall of them all can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten sayeth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other belike therefore if there were any archbishop he had no chaire in the church but was as it semeth digging at the metalles For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops would haue no doubt remembred him But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop what is that to the metropolitane whych is now either to the name or to the office of the office it shal appeare afterwards In the name I thinke there is a great differēce betwene a metropolitane bishop metropolitane of England or of al England A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els but a bishop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire and as for thys name it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop then when I say a minister of London and a minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised whych will gather of thys saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers as is betweene London and Nuington for his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops patriarkes archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell and although there be a thirtenthe canon there is no worde of patriarke or archdeacon there contained And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte yea and whych are not to be found Theodoret sayeth that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece and those twentie are in the tome of the councels and in those there is no mention of any patriarke archdeacon archbishop Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twenty but in lengthe and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop archdeacon patriarke And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece to proue the supremacie
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
good common wealthes wherein many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if because there is one king in a lande aboue all he will conclude there should be one archbyshop ouer all I say as I haue sayde that it is not agaynst any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the world and yet I thinke M. Doctor will not say that there may be one archbyshop ouer all the world Now M. Doctor commeth to hys olde hole where he woulde fayne hyde hym selfe and with hym all the ambition tyranny and excesse of authoritie which is ioyned wyth these functions of archbyshoppe and byshoppe as they are now vsed and thys hys hole is that all the mynisters are equall with byshops and archbyshops as touching the mynisterie of the worde and sacramentes but not as touching pollicie and gouernment The papistes vse the very selfe same distinction for the mayntenance of the Popes tyranny and ambytion and other their hierarchie Maister Doctor hath put out the marke and conceled the name of the papistes and so with a little chaunge of wordes as it were with certayne new coloures he woulde deceiue vs For the papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge priest hath as great authoritie to sacrifice and offer for the quicke and the dead and to mynister the sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the byshoppe is aboue a priest the archbyshoppe aboue a byshoppe and the Pope aboue them all But I haue declared before out of the scriptures how vayne a distinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the byshops were equall one to an other so he sayth that to euery one was geuen a portion of the Lordes flocke not only to feede with the worde and sacramentes but to rule and gouerne not as they which shall make any accoumpte vnto an archbyshop or be iudged of hym but as they which can not bee iudged of any but of god And Ierome vpon Titus sayeth that the elder or mynister dyd gouerne and rule in common with the byshops the churche whereof he was elder or mynister After followeth M. Caluin a great patrone forsoth of the archbyshop or of thys kynde of byshop which is vsed amongst vs heere in Englande And heere to passe ouer your straunge cytations and quotations which you make to put your answerer to payne sending hym sometymes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustines workes to Chrysostomes workes to Cyrill to Maister Foxe and heere sending hym to the viij chapter of the institutions as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke the sentence of some bodye else withoute anye examination whereby it seemeth that you were lothe that euer any man should answere your booke letting I say all thys passe what maketh thys eyther to proue that there shoulde bee one archbyshoppe ouer all the mynisters in the prouince or one byshoppe ouer all in the diocese that amongst twelue that were gathered together into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette And that it may appeare what superioritie it is which is lawfull amongst the mynisters and what it is that M. Caluin speaketh of what also the fathers and councels doe meane when they geue more to the byshoppe of any one church then to the elder of the same church and that no man be deceiued by the name of gouernoure or ruler ouer the rest to fancie any such authoritie and domination or Lordship as we see vsed in our church it is to be vnderstanded that amongst the pastors elders and deacons of euery particulare church and in the meetinges and companies of the mynisters or elders of dyuers churches there was one chosen by the voyces and suffrages of them all or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishmentes and censures to be decreed vpon those which had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was geuen to entreate of the which also gathered the voyces and reasons of those which had interest to speake in such cases whiche also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces whiche were geuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonishe or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receiue admonishment consolation or rebuke and which in a worde dyd moderate that whole action which was done for the time they were assembled which thing we do not deny may be but affirme that it is fitte necessary to be to the auoyding of confusion For it were an absurde hearing that many should at once attempt to speake neyther coulde it be done without great reproch that many men beginning to speake some should be bidden to holde their peace which would come to passe if there should be no order kept nor none to appoynt when euery one should speake or not to put them to silence when they attempted confusedly to speake and out of order Moreouer when many ministers mete together and in so great dyuersitie of giftes as the Lorde hath geuen to hys church there be founde that excell in memory facilitie of tong and expedition or quicknesse to dispatche matters more then the rest and therefore it is fitt that the brethren that haue that dexteritie shoulde especially be preferred vnto thys office that the action may be the better and more spedely made an ende of And if any man will call thys a rule or presidentship and hym that executeth thys office a president or moderator or a gouernour we will not striue so that it be with these cautions that he be not called simply gouernor or moderator but gouernor or moderator of that action and for that time and subiect to the orders that others be to be censured by the company of the brethren as wel as others if he be iudged any way faulty And that after that action ended meeting dissolued he sitte hym downe in hys olde place and set hym selfe in equall estate with the rest of the ministers Thirdly that thys gouernment or presidentship or what so euer lyke name you will geue it be not so tyed vnto that minister but that at the next meeting it shall be lawfull to take an other if an other bee thought meeter Of thys order and pollicy of the church if we will see a liuely image and perfect paterne let vs set before our eyes the most auncient and gospel like church that euer was or shall be In the actes the church being gathered together for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming together with what cautions and qualities they ought to
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
of certen that haue bene killed thereby you mighte as well bryng in a prayer that men may not haue falles frō their horses may not fal into the hands of robbers may not fall into waters and a number such more sodaine deathes wherwith a greater number are taken away then by thundrings or lightnings and such like and so there should be neuer any end of begging these earthly cōmodityes whych is contrary to the forme of prayer appoynted by our sauioure Christe And wheras you alledge the petition of the Lords prayer deliuer vs from euill to proue this prayer against Thunder c. besides that all the commodities and discommodities of thys life are prayed for and prayed against in that petition whereby we desire oure daily breade it is very straunge to apply that to the thunder that is vnderstanded of the deuill as the article apo tou ponerou dothe declare And that it is a maruellous cōclusion that for so much as we ought daily and ordinarily and publikely desire to be deliuered from the Deuill Ergo we oughte daily and ordinarily and publikely desire to be deliuered from thunder It is one thing to correct Magnificat and an other thing to shew the abuse of it And therfore I see no cause why you should vse this allusion betwene Magnificat significat vnles it be for that you purposing to set out all your learning in thys boke wold not so much as forget an old rotten prouerb whych trotted amongst the monkes in their cloisters of whome I may iustly say whych Tullie sayd in a nother thyng Nec quicquam ingenium potest monasterium that is the cloister coulde neuer bring forthe any witty thing for heere although there be Rythmus yet it is sine ratione As these are diuers things more then ought to be conueniently so wante there some things in the prayers There are prayers set forthe to be sayde in the common calamities and vniuersal scourges of the realme as plague famine c. and in dede so it ought to be by the word of God ioyned wyth a publike fast commaūded not only when we are in any calamity but also when any the churches round about vs or in any countrey receiue any generall plague or greeuous chastisement at the Lordes hand But as suche prayers are needefull whereby we beg release from our distresses so there ought to be as necessary prayers of thāks geuing whē we haue receiued those things at the Lords hand whych we asked in our prayers And thus much touching the matter of the prayers eyther not altogither sound or else too much or too little Concerning the fourme there is also to be misliked A great cause wherof is the folowing of the forme vsed in Popery against whych I haue before spoken For whilest that seruice was set in many poynts as a paterne of this it cometh to pas that in stead of suche prayers as the primitiue churches haue vsed those that be reformed now vse we haue diuers short cuts shreddings whych may be better called wishes then prayers And that no man thinke that thys is some idle fancie that it is no matter of weight what forme of prayer we vse so that the prayers be good it must be vnderstanded that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine whych our sauior Christ hys apostles haue preached vnles the same forme of doctrine and of teaching be likewise kept so is it not enough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God vnles that the forme also be agreeable vnto the formes of prayers in the scripture Now we haue no such formes in the scripture as that we shuld pray in .ij. or .iij. lines and thē after hauing red a while some other thing come and pray as much more and so to the .xx. and .xxx. time wyth pauses betweene If a man shoulde come to a Prince and keepe suche order in making hys petitions vnto hym that hauing very many things to demaund after he had demaunded one thing he would stay a long time and then demaunde an other and so the thirde the prince myght well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had nede of or that he had forgotten some pece of hys sute or that he were distracted in hys vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therfore how much more conuenient were it that according to the manner of the reformed churches first the minister wyth an hūble and general confession of faults shuld desire the assistance of the Lord for the frutefull handling and receiuing of the word of God and then after that we haue heard the Lord speake vnto vs in hys worde by hys minister the church should likewise speake vnto the Lord and present all those petitions and sutes at once bothe for the whole churche and for the Prince and all other estates whych shall be thought needefull And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Actes it may be answeared that S. Luke doth not expres the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them and their cheefe poyntes And further it may be answeared that alwayes those praiers were continued together and not cut off and shred into diuers small peeces An other fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuers places to saye after the minister wherby not only the time is vnprofitably wasted a confused voyce of the people one speaking after an other caused but an opinion bredde in their heads that those only be their prayers whych they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes whych causeth them to geue the les heede to the rest of the prayers whych they reherse not after the minister whych notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those whych they pronounce after the minister otherwise then the order whych is left vnto the church of God dothe beare For God hath ordained the minister to thys ende that as in publike meetings he only is the mouthe of the Lorde from hym to the people euen so he ought to be only the mouthe of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people shoulde attende to that whych is sayde by the minister and in the ende bothe declare their consent to that whych is sayde and there hope that it shall so be and come to pas whych is prayed by the worde Amen as S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr sheweth to haue bene the custome of the churches in hys time Although these blots in the Common prayer be such as may easely enough appeare vnto any whych is not wedded to a preiudicate opinion and that there is no great difficultye in thys matter yet I knowe that thys treatise of prayer will be subiect to many reprehensions and that there will not be wanting some probable coloures also wherby
plainly by Ierome whych folowed Ambrose immediatlye who in hys third chapter vpon Esay sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church The same myght be shewed by diuers other testimonies whych I omit because that it may appeare by the former treatise touchyng the election of the mynister that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church from the head to the heele Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused or else desyreth to abuse other For if wheras he toke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe wyth hym and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter The whole sentence is thys speakyng of thys offyce of the elders although not vpon so good occasyon thus he sayeth Whervpon the sinagoge and after the church had elders wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out onles it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors or rather throughe theyr pryde whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat Now that I haue shewed the place I wyll say no more I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as thys order is such as wythout whych the principall offices of charity can not be exercysed and that it is that which is commauÌ„ded by the scryptures approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches bothe in tyme of peace in tyme of persecution and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace then in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant why rather now then in the apostles times that in consyderation of these things the eldershyp is necessary and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout And so also is answeared the third question that for so much as they were church offycers and ouer the people in matters pertayning to God such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons The rest comprehended in these sections is answeared before being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church but he shuld vnderstand that besyde that parte of priuate disciplyne whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exercised by euery one of the pastors elders as Admonition and reprehension there are .iij. princypal parts whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together wherof the first is the election or choyse and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers The second is in excommunication of the stubburne or absolution of the repeÌ„tant The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church eyther touchyng corrupt manners or peruerse doctryne As touchyng the election and consequently the throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together wyth the churche the eldershyp hathe the principall sway For the decision of controuersyes wheÌ„ they ryse it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also Nowe it remayneth heere that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church agayne doth pertayne only to the minister that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership and the whole church also hath interest in the Excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche But heere by the way it is to be noted that in saying that it belongeth to the minister he confesseth the dysorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minyster but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe whych place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstaÌ„ded of the elders of the church It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace or the byshop of the diocese or the Chancellor or Commissarye And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church whych is the more vntollerable for that being so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by any reason or lyke phrase of scrypture or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully when he can haue but one against twentye and but a sillable where he can not haue a sentence It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the cheefe stroke in this excoÌ„munication if it be obserued that thys was the pollicy and discipline of the Iewes and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this and translated it vnto this church that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church according to the quality of the faulte as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe For althoughe it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuill iudgement yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements the same being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines and that the word sanâ—drim corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion whych S. Mathewe vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And thys was the cause why our sauioure Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew wythout noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.
be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstand what is sayde of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before hym The cause of which diuersitie rose of that that I first purposed to set downe his answer before my reply as he dyd the admonition before hys answer But afterward considering that hys booke being already in the handes of men it would be double charges to bye it agayne and especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownes of the prynt for want of helpe the reply by that meanes should come forth later then was conuenient for although he myght commodyously bryng in the admonition being short yet the same coulde not be done in his booke swellyng in that sort which it doth I say these thinges consydered I changed my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes which moued me so to doe because I know that those if any be which haue determyned to contynue theyr foreiudged opynions agaynst the cause whatsoeuer be alledged wyll hereupon take occasion to surmyse that I haue left out hys answere to the end that it myght the lesse appeare wherein I haue passed ouer any weyght of hys reasons where as had it not bene for these causes which I haue before aledged my earnest desire was to haue set hys answere before my reply whereof I call the Lord to wytnesse whom I know to be a sharpe iudge agaynst those which shall abuse hys holy name to any vntruth ¶ An answeare to the whole Epistle to the Church WHat causes eyther pulled you forward or thrust you backward to wryte or not to wryte and how in thys dispute wyth your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in thys sort I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lord who only knoweth the secretes of the heart and will in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of contention whych you set downe as the first and principall cause that beat you backe from wryting might well haue ben put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bene so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches enemylike speaches as it were stickes and coales to double and treble the heat of contention If the sharpnes of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke they outreached in some vehemency of words how could you more effectually haue cōfuted that then to haue in a quiet and milde spirite set them in the way which in your opinion had left it now in words condenming it and approuing it in your dedes I wil not say that you do not so much mislike thys sharpness as you are sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whych he sayd Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words when I see the dedes In the fourth reason wherby you were discouraged to wryte if by backbiters and vnlearned tongs viperous kinde of men not able to iudge of controuersies caryed away wyth affections and blinde zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erronious opinions you meane all those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answere for my selfe and for as many as I know of them that they are they which first desire so it be truely to heare and speak◠all good of you But if that be not through your perseuerance in the maintenaunce of the corruptions of this church which you should helpe to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill which you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to doe may be knowen to the lesse discredite of the truth and sinceritie which you with such might and mayne doe striue agaynst Touching our vnlearned tongues we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned then they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tunges to speake falsly And how vnlearned so euer you would make the world beleue that we and our tunges be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned enough to defend the truthe agaynst all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be the * generation of Christ which you call viperous kynde of men know you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen for all indifferent iudgement it will easely perceiue that you are as far from the spirite of * Iohn Baptist as you are nere to hys maner of speche Which you vse whether it be affection or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being layde out shall be wayed indifferently Whereas you say that your duetie towards God and the Queene her maiesty moued you to take thys laboure in hande it will fall out vppon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in thys enterprise and worke of youres so haue you done nothing lesse then any godly duetie which you owe vnto her Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that wherein an euill matter you coulde yelde no duetie yet now you haue done that which you thought a duetie which iudgeinent we will so long keepe of you vntill you shall by oppugning of a knowen truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defend let it in the name of God appeare by our seuerall proufes and answeares of both sides And as for the slaunderous surmises whereby in your third and last consideration you set the Papistes of the one side of vs and the Anabaptistes of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our handes as it were to them both first it ought not to be strange vnto vs miserable sinners seeing that the Lord hym selfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greuous malefactors as though he had bene worse then they both Then for answere of those slaunderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are geuen out in more particular manner An answere to that which is called a briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament IF the scriptures had bene applyed to the mayntenaunce of the abhomination of the masse and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie you could haue sayd no more nor vsed vehementer speache then thys that they are most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed And then where is charitie which couereth the multitude of faultes especially in brethren when you do not only not couer them but also take away their garmentes whereby they are couered I will not deny but that there be some few places quoted whych might haue bene spared but there are a great number which M. Doctor tosseth throweth away
of the Acces sheweth that S. Peter would not take vpon him to present two as sitte for the place which was voyde but sayth they dyd present or sette vp whereby appeareth that the examynation of their habilitie was committed to manye The same appeareth also in the sixte of the Actes when as the Apostles wil the church wherin there were so excellent personages to looke out seuen full of the holy ghost and wisdome c. they doe not there permit the dyscerning of their wisdome and other giftes to one but to many Secondarely I cannot commend it for that that one man is the Archdeacon which must examyne the pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie For what is the Archdeacon is he not a Deacon for he being the cheefe Deacon must needes be also a Deacon hym selfe And therfore although the cheefe deacon yet inferioure to any of the pastoures and the * giftes which are required in hym inferioure to those which are required in the pastoure And to make him iudge of the aptnesse ablenesse of the pastoure is to make the inferioure in giftes iudge of the superioure he that hath by hys calling lesse giftes iudge of his which hath by his calling greater giftes which is nothing else then to appoynt him that hath but one eye to ouersee hys sight that hath two Thirdly I mistyke the booke because it permitteth that the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credite and report of the Archdeacon vpon his examination if there be no oppositiō of the people which appeareth by these words in the booke whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus Reuerend father in god I present vnto you these persons to be made priestes c. The Byshop answereth ¶ Take heede that the persons whome you present vnto vs be apt and meete for their godly conuersacion to exercise their ministerie duely to the honour of God and edifying of his church And thereupon I thinke it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the Byshop But why doth not he himselfe take heede vnto it with what conscience can he admit a Minister of whose fitnesse he knoweth not but vpon the credit of an other although he were otherwise very fitte where can he haue that full perswasion that he doth well vpon the report of others when the report of his life and learning is made but of one And therefore * S. Paul ordayned that the same should be the ordeyners and the examyners and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man in thinges that are so waightie and whereof he may him selfe take notice Fourthly for that albeit the church is demaunded whether it haue any thing to obiect yet that church whereof he is to be pastor which it skilleth especially that he be fitte is not demaunded and which would because it standeth them vpon inquire dyligently of hym Agayne they are demaunded which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie when for the most part they neuer see nor heard of before as one that came of one day vnto the towne and goeth away the next Further they haue no reasonable space geuen them wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation and haue some experyence of hys soundnesse in teaching and discretion and iudgement to rule hys flocke But if as sone as euer it be sayde to those that are straungers that they should obiect agaynst them no mā stand forth to obiect any thing forthwith he is made a mynister And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering Mynisters faultie touching the tryall and examynation of the mynisters whiche selfe same thinges are lykewyse of the tryall of the Deacon And so you see that besydes the faultes of those that execute the lawe that there bee faultes in the lawes themselues and therefore the cause is truely assygned althoughe you see it not And what meane you still to vse thys fyghting wyth your owne shadow for where are the wordes or what be they that condemne all the Ministers for some that say all the Ministers are vnlawfully admitted for some or that there is none good because some are badde If there be no such wordes as cary with them any suche sense then you do wrong to your brethren If there be wordes that declare the cleane contrary then all men see what you be which althoughe you often faulte in yet I am lothe so often to name and charge you wyth it When it is sayd that learned and vnlearned are receyued it is euydent that they condemne not all The Lord blesse and encrease an hundreth folde the godly wise learned graue ministers of thys churche And because these wordes seeme to rocke vs a sleepe and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines desolations of the Churche I muste tell you that two thousande able and suffycient mynisters which preache and feede dyligently and carefully the flocke of Christ were hard to be founde in thys Churche which haue bene notwithstanding founde in the Church of Fraunce by the estimation of those which know the estate euen vnder the tyme of the crosse where there were no such helpes of Magistrates and appoynted stypendes as God be praysed we haue And agayne you are to be put in mynde that a great number of those were bredde in king Edwardes dayes so that I feare me a man neede no great Arithmatike to counte the numbers of such able ministers as the late yeares haue brought forth And yet I am well assured that if the ministerie were reformed and worthy men were sought for there are great nombers of zelous and learned men that would lay their handes to serue thys kynde of building by the ministerie For besydes numbers that the Vniuersities would yelde which sigh for the repayring of the decayes of the church to helpe forwarde so great a worke the Innes of Courte and other the gentrie of the realme Galene and Iustinian would bryng theyr tenthes and as it were pay their shot in this reckening It is not denied but the testimonie that a noble man which professeth the truth doth geue ought to be weighed accordyng to hys degree place which he hath in the common wealth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul vsed who when he admytted Tymothe into hys company to be a companyon in hys iourney to cutte of all occasion of euill speche receyued hym not * but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra and I conyum You know they ment by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shoppe into the Church as sodenly are chaunged out of a seruing mans coate into a mynisters cloke making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besydes the words be playne the dayly
oute any wythout good cause that then the Magistrates shoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye In deede the byshop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes because of the lyghtnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I do nothing else heere but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Church were vsed in the times of the Emperoures and by their consentes and seeing that Otho confessed it pertayned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether he tooke it at the Bishop his handes And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suertie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome which with their byshoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both Cities townes they dyd not deny the elections of the ministers to the people Besides that certayne of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperoures were and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynt of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny and went about to take all libertie from the churches was now on horse backe had placed hym selfe in that Antichristian seate To the next section in the 45. THose that write the Centuries suspect thys Canon and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no considering the practise of the church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayde that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church was but in the Apostles tyme and duryng the time of persecution And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne I say at the least because there be good authors that say that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne and thys councel Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cōstantines tyme And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes to things which he neuer meant and the contrary wherof he continually practised then thys authoritie of youres is dashed For maister Caluin sayth where as it is sayd in that councel that the election should not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouyde that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche And if it happen any to dye in the churche then those which were last taken are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead with thys condition if they be worthy and the people chuse them and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria together geuing his consent and appoynting them An other of the famousest councelles called the councell of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius the great as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite storie in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope and Ambrose and others sayth thus We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Constantinople with the whole consent of the counsell in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God the whole Citie together decreeing the same Likewise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode byshop of Antioche the whole people appoynting him Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde when hee hath bene examyned in all these and founde fully instructed then let hym be ordayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people and the Byshoppes of the prouince and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the 51. distinction it was thus ordayned Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse nor the consent of the metropolitane other priests in that prouince hath sought after Moreouer concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath thys If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince and of the cleargie citizens let an other be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accompted of none effect All which councelles proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers rounde about or synodes counceiles directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces or consentes To the next section in the 45. page Thys alteration c. IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles church which heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the Scriptures VVhat a window nay what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes to confirme their fantasticall opynion wherin they holde that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of god If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres I answere vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these
do approche nearer the scruice or worship of God. The causes why we are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hand because that we thincke any pollution so to sticke to the thinge◠them selues as that the wearing of them had any suche power to pollute make vncleane the vsers of them neyther yet only because the papistes haue superstitionsly vsed them but because they hauing beene abhominably abused by them haue no vse nor profite in those thinges or endes wherein and whereunto they are now vsed And further that they are also hurfull being monuments of idolatrie whereas to bring them in and establishe them it behoueth that there shoulde some manyfest profite of them appeare For it is not enoughe to say it is indifferent in the owne nature Ergo meete to be done but as the circumstances of the times and persones and profite or hurt of our brethren do require or not require so must it be done or not be done For in these thinges which are called indifferent God will haue the vse of them to be measured that it be referred first to his glory then to the profite of others Now that they are not profitable and hurtfull it also may appeare if we consider them by all the kindes of men in the realme The papistes are eyther stubborne or weake and in respect of both these they can not be but hurtfull The weake I call those that haue made some steppe from poperie to the gospell and of whome there is good hope that they may bee fully gotten to the gospell but these are harmed by the vse of these vestimentes for they take occasion of falling at them because they thinck that the sacraments gette reuerence by them and the ministerie is commended by such apparell wearing and thincke that the sacramentes wante some thing of that they shoulde haue if they be not vsed whereupon are hearde oftentimes these voyces I will not communicate vnles he weare a surplice But this offence and occasion of falling is confirmed by the vse of these garmentes therefore in respect of such men they are hurtfull Agayne although I haue knowledge and know that the wearing of a surplice is lawfull for me yet an other which hath not knowledge is by my example edifyed or strengthned to weare a surplice whereof he can tell no grounde why he should weare it and so synneth agaynst his conscience and for this cause S. Paule concludeth that that which a man may doe in respect of him selfe may not be done and is not lawfull to be done in respect of other Agayne for the stubberne papistes they take heereupon occasion to speake euill of and to blaspheme the truthe of the gospell saying that our religion can not stande by it selfe vnles it leane vppon the staffe of their ceremonies and perswade them selues that those were very well deuised by their Popes that they that are their ennemyes to their religion can not be without And heereuppon they take occasyon to hope that their other trumpery and baggage will in the ende come in agayne which causeth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse and shutte their eares agaynst the truth which possibly they would heare if all hope of bringing in of their Popery were cutte off And let it be obserued that through out the realme there are none that make suche clamoures and ouctryes and complayntes for these ceremonies as they and those that they suborne They pretend I confesse the Queenes maiesties Iniunctions obediēce vnto them but who is so blynde as seeth not that they haue an other meaning For I appeale vnto the consciences of all that know them whether they doe it for any obedience towardes her Maiestie whose death should be a thousande times better newes vnto them then her graces marriage There are also numbers of those which haue all antichristianitie in such detestation that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it and when they see the ministers weare them they are greeued in their heartes and they begin somewhat to feare least this communicating with the papistes in apparell shoulde make some way to those which vse them the easyer to admit other things when they should be lykewise commaunded And these brethrens myndes are not to be lightly greeued and the ministers if they thinke to profite them must cut away all occasion whereby they maye haue an euill opinion of them Seeing that therfore this kinde of ceremonies in apparel harden the harts of the papistes and cause them to be the stiffer in their poperie hinder the weake from profiting in the knowledge of the gospel greue the mindes of the godly are occasion of an euill opinion vnto them of their ministers we thincke that these ceremonies are to be remoued as not only not profitable which they oughte to be but hurtfull if not to the ministers them selues that vse them yet to their people to whome they are commaunded by God to haue regarde vnto in these thyngs that are indifferent in their owne natures Nowe I will come to that whych you set downe The places alledged by the admonition wyth others whych may be cited howsoeuer you deride them are notwithstanding probable coniectures that neither Samuell nor the apostles nor our sauioure Christ did weare any distincte apparell from others whych liued in their times For if Samuel being then the seer had had a seueral apparel whych was proper to the seers it is not like that Saule would haue asked of him selfe where hys house was And if the apostles had worne a seuerall apparell from the rest they shoulde not haue bene estemed by so generall and vncerten a note as of speaking somwhat brodely or as I may terme it Northenly for it had bene a surer note to haue sayd thou art one of hys apostles because none weareth thys apparell but his apostles where there was a great number that spake Galilcan like whych were not of hys apostles nor disciples neyther But let these goe You say our sauioure Christ had a seuerall apparell because he had a coate wythout seame Assuredly you myghte vse les scornefulnes in rehearsing of other mennes arguments if for no other cause yet for thys that they might take more pitie of youres For what an argument is this Our sauioure Christ did weare an vnder garment whych coulde not be well parted but with the spoile or marring of it therfore he ware a seuerall apparell from the rest It is true Ihon Baptist had a seuerall apparell and to helpe you so had Elias but to thys ende that bothe by hys vnwonted apparell and straunge diet whych he vsed of locustes and wilde hony the extraordinaries of his ministerie might be set forthe and the people the rather moued to enquire of hys office whome they saw to vary so much from the common custome of other men But ministers now haue no suche extraordinarie functions therfore by that reason of youres they shuld not be
things Dauid was a lawfull and godly magistrate and yet there slipt from him commaundementes whych were neither lawfull nor godly But he addeth that it is done for order and for decencie wythout superstition or suspition of it This is that whych is in controuersy and oughte to be proued and M. Doctor still taketh it as graunted and still faulteth in the petition of the principle wherwith he chargeth others The second reason is that they that weare thys apparell haue edified and do edify whych is as if a man would say the midwiues whych lied vnto Pharao did much good amongst the Israelites Ergo their lying did much good If he will say the comparison is not like because the one is not sinne in hys owne nature whereas the other is sinne then take thys One that stammereth and stutteth in his toÌ„g edifieth the people therfore stammering and stutting is good to edifie For what if the Lorde geue hys blessing vnto hys worde and to other good giftes whych he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplice c. Is it to be thought therfore that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparell This is to assigne the cause of a thing to that whych is not only not the cause thereof but some hinderance also and sâ—aking of that wherof it is supposed to be a cause For a man may rather reason that for as much as they which preache with surplice c. edify notwithstaÌ„ding that they therby driue away some and to other some giue â—â—spition of euill c. if they preached wythout wearing any suche thyng they should edify much more And yet if a man were assured to gaine a thousande by doing of that which may offend or cause to fall one brother he ought not to do it The third reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poynts of doctrine and they that do not weare it do not consent not so much as amongst them selues If this consent in the poynts of religion be in the surplice cope c. tel vs I beseche you whether in the matter or in y form or in what hid and vnknowne quality staÌ„deth it if it be in that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruell that this being so strong a bond to holde them togither in godly vnitie that it was neuer commauÌ„ded of Christ nor practised of prophets or apostles neuer of no other reformed churches I had thought wholy that those things which the lord appoynteth to maintaine kepe vnitie with especially the holy sacrameÌ„ts of baptisme of the lords supper had ben strong enough to haue first of all knit vs vnto the lord therfore also to his doctrine then one of vs to an other that the dissenting in such a ceremony as a surplice c. neither should nor could in those that pertaine vnto God breake the vnitie of the spirit whych is bouÌ„d wyth the bond of truth And although there be whych like not this apparell that thinke otherwise then either their brethren or then in dede they ought to do yet a man may finde greater dissent amongst those whych are vnited in surplice cope c. then there is amongst those which weare them not either with them selues or with them that weare them For how many there are that weare surplices which would be gladder to say a masse than to heare a sermon let all the world iudge And of those y do weare this apparel be otherwise wel minded to the gospel are ther not which wil wear the surplis not the cap other the wil weare both cap surplice but not the tippet yet a third sort the wil weare surplice cap tippet but not the cope It hath ben the maner alwayes of wise learned men to esteme of things by the causes not by the euent that especially in matters of religion for if they shuld be estemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battell against Aye afterward against the Beniamites which notwithstanding the cause which was Gods wist and Gods commaundement iustifieth And therfore in a worde I answere the if there be such consent amongst those which like wel of this apparell and such iarres amongst those that like it not as M. doctor wold make the world beleue neither is the wearing of the surplice c. cause of the consent in them nor the not wearing cause of the disagrement in the other But as our knowledge loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agrement consent of iudgemeÌ„t vnperfect And yet all these harde speaches of yours or vncharitable suspitions of papisme anabaptisme catharisine donatisme c. wherby you do as much as lieth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shal not be able so to estrange vs or seperate vs from you but that we wil by gods grace hold what so euer you hold well kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth eueÌ„ with you M. doctor whom we suppose as appeareth by this your boke to haue set your selfe further from vs then numbers of those which although they be content to receiue the apparel beare with things yet wold haue ben loth to haue set downe the against the sinceritie of the gospel hinderance of reformation which you haue done The white apparell which is a note true representation of the glory purenes in the angels shuld be a lying signe preteÌ„ce of that which is not in the ministers which are miserable sinful men And our sauior Christ which was the minister of God pure from sin therfore metest to weare the marke of purenes vsed no such kinde of weede sauing only for the smal time wherin he wold geue to his disciples in the mount a tast of that glory which he shuld enioy for euer they with him where for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow And if it be mete that the ministers shuld represent the angels in their apparel it is much more mete that they shuld haue a paire of wings as the angels are described to haue to put them in remeÌ„brance of their readines quicknes to execute their office which may and ought to be in them then to weare white apparell whych is a token of purenes from sinne and infection and of a glorye whych neither they haue nor can haue nor ought so much as to desire to haue as long as they be in thys world And whereas the maintainers of this apparell haue for their greatest defence that it is a thyng meere ciuill to let passe that they confounde Ecclesiasticall orders wyth ciuill whych they can no more iustly do then to confounde the church wyth the common wealth I say to let that pas they do by thys meanes not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremonie but also a matter of
eldershyp excommunication and the office of Deacons as it is thought for that the Saduces of whome so often mention is made in the gospell are thought to haue had that offyce to prouide for the poore for those that know the Hebrew tongue doe vnderstand that tsaddikim and tsedacah do not only signifie iustice and iust men but also almes and almes men I say these and others more translated from the law vnto the gospell but neyther you nor your Clement shall euer be able to shew that the Lord euer translated any thing from Gentelisme into the gospell We reade in the Actes that all the Gentiles were commaunded to conforme them selues vnto the Iewes in the abstayning from bloude and strangled meate for a tyme but we can neuer finde that the Iewes were commaunded to conforme them to the Gentiles in their ceremonies the reason wherof is because the one was sometymes the law of God and therefore he that had conscience in it was to be borne with and the other came from men and out of their forge which the Lord would neuer geue so much honor vnto as to make other men by any meanes subiect vnto them But what if there were no such offices amongst the Gentiles Paganes as Archiflamines or Protoflamines whereof before I shew the coniectures which I haue I must geue the gentle reader to vnderstand that I am not ignorant that there are diuers which say there were such offices amongst the Gentiles and namely heere in Englande that there were 25. Flamines and three Archiflamines wherof were made three archbyshops of London Canterbury and Yorke and. 25. Bishops as Platine hath in the chapter Eleutherius And Galfridus Monemutensis in hys seconde booke and first chapter And Lumbarde in hys fourthe booke speaketh of it as of a generall thing that was in all places where Paganisme was But if so be that the relygion of other Paganes dyd follow and was lyke vnto that of the Romaines which is very probable they being then the rulers of the whole worlde in a maner vnto whose example all men doe lightly conforme them selues euen without commaundement then there is great likelyhoode there were no such archiflamines or protoflamines out of Tullie which sheweth that there was amongst the Romaines dyuers kindes of priestes whereof some were called flamines of a seuerall attire which they ware alwayes of their heades other pontifices and a thirâ—â—â— sort were called Salij and that the cheefe of these Flamines was called flâ—meâ—â—â—alâ—s who was also distinguished from the rest vp a white hatte but of any archiflamines or protoflamines he maketh no mention at all and therefore it is lyke that there was neuer any such office amongst the Paganes And if there were I haue shewed how wycked it is to say that Peter framed the mynisterie of the gospell by it Now let it be seene of all men how strongly you haue concluded that the names of archbyshoppes are not antichristian when as it is most certen that he was a piller of antichrist vppon whome your reason is grounded The tymes wherein Volusianus lyued declare suffyciently how little credite is to be geuen to hys testimonie which were when the masse had place if not so wycked as it was after yet notwithstanding farre differing from the simplicitie of the supper which was left by our sauiour Christ And Eusebius is of more credite in thys then Volusianus which sayth of the reporte of Dionisius byshop of Corinthe that S. Paule made Dionisius Areopagita byshop of Athens he sayth not archbyshop but byshop although he speake twise of it And in the preface before hys workes it is fayde that after hys conuersion he went to Rome to Clement and was sent with others of Clement into the West partes and that he came to Paris and was there executed whether so euer of these opinions is true that falleth whyche Volusianus affirmeth And if eyther Volusianus or you will haue vs beeleue that Dyonisius Areopagita was archbyshoppe of Athens you must shew some better authoritie then Eusebius or Dyonisius byshop of Corinthe and then your cause shall haue at the least some more coloure of truthe Erasmus followeth which sayth Titus was archbyshop of Crete whom I coulde answere with hys owne wordes for I am sure he will graunt me that Titus Timothe had one office the one in Ephesus the other in Crete but it appeareth by Erasmus hys owne wordes that Timothe was but byshop of Ephesus therefore Titus was but byshop of Crete For Erasmus in hys argument vpon the first Epistle of Timothe sayth that S. Paule did enfornie Timothe of the office of a byshop and of the discipline of the church If eyther he had bene an archbyshop or an archbyshop had bene so necessary as it is made hee would haue instructed hym in that also And I pray you tell me whether Erasmus or the Greeke Scholiast be more to bee beeleeued in thys poynte out of whome is taken that whyche is in the latter ende of the Epystles to Tymothe and Tytus where they bothe are called the first elected Byshoppes that euer were eyther of Ephesus or Creta For my parte I thyncke they were neyther Byshoppes nor Archbyshoppes but Euangelistes as shall appeare afterwardes But it maye be suffycient to haue sette agaynste Erasmus authoritie the authoritie of the Scholiaste And if heere you will cauill and say that the Scholiaste whych sayeth hee was Byshoppe denyeth not but that he also was an Archbyshoppe because an archbyshop is a byshop it may be answered casely that the Scholiaste dyd not speake nor wryte so vnproperly as to call them by the generall name of byshop whome he myght as easely haue called if the truth woulde haue let hym by a more proper and particular name of archbyshop And further in thys dyuision of the mynisters the archbyshop and the byshop are members of one dyuision and therefore one of them can not be affirmed and sayde of an other for that were contrary to the nature of a true dyuision And yet I haue a further answere bothe to Erasmus and Volusianus and whatsoeuer other haue written after thys sort that they speake gaue titles to those men they wrote of not according to that which they were but according to the custome and manner of that age wherein they wrote And so we may read that Vincentius and Nicephorus wryting of Victor speake farre otherwise of hym then Eusebius doth which notwithstanding wrote of the same man which they dyd The one calleth Victor the Pope of Rome And the other sayeth that in glory he passed all the byshops before hym which Eusebius neuer maketh any word of Euen so Volusianus and Erasmus lyuing in the tymes when as they which were the most esteemed in the ministerie were called archbyshops call Titus and Dyonisius archbyshops vpon whome depended the cheefe care of those churches which they gouerned There followeth Anacletus an other of these witnesses which
That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is later Ierome and you confesse that thys was first that the byshop was all one with the elder and first also by the word of God then I conclude that that is true You both doe likewise confesse that it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude that that is false for all that is false that is later Furthermore Ierome in the same place of Titus sayth after thys sort As the elders know them selues to be subiect by a custome of the church vnto hym that is set ouer them so the byshops must know that they are greater then the elders rather by custome then by any truth of the institution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the church in common Now seing that Ierome confesseth that a byshop and an elder by God his institution are all one and that custome of the church hath altered thys institution for the taking away of thys custome and restoring of the Lordes institution I say as our sauiour Christ sayd why doe you breake the commaundementes of God to establishe your owne traditions for the one is the institution of God and the other the tradition of the church and if a mans testimony be so much with M. Doctor let hym heare what the same Tertullian fayth whatsoeuer sauoureth agaynst the truth shall be accompted heresie euen although it be an olde custome Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon hys head after thys sorte In the apostles tymes there were schismes and heresies but in their tymes there were no archbyshops ordayned to appease them therefore the best meanes of composing of controuersies and keping concorde is not by hauing an archbyshop to be ouer a whole prouince That there was none in the apostles tymes thus it may appeare If there were any they were eyther ordayned by the apostles and their authoritie or else without and besides their authoritie If there were any without and besides their authoritie then they are therefore to be condemned the more because in their tymes they starte vp without their warrant And if the apostles dyd ordayne them there was some vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned but there was no vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned therefore the apostles dyd not ordayne them The vse wherunto M. Doctor sayth they were ordayned was to compose controuersies and end schismes but to thys they were not vsed whereupon it followeth that if there were any they were vnprofitable That they were not vsed to any such ende it shall be perceiued by that which followeth At Antioche there rose a great and daungerous heresie that had in a manner infected all the churches which shaked the very foundation of the saluation of Gods children that was whether fayth were sufficient to iustifie without circumcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What doe they now Doe they ordayne some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one cheefe to whome they will referre the controuersie or vppon whome they will depend nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controtrouersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose then S. Paule which was amongst them Why doe they sende abrode for remedy when they had it at home why with great charges and long iourneys which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the dore what doe they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the churches of the vniuersities and of London to desire their helpe in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule and Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or minde of some one it must needes be answeared wyth S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the churche and yet there were the apostles wherof euery one was better able both sharply to see and to iudge incorruptly wythout affection then any archbyshop that euer was If therfore in so great aboundance ouerflowing of the gifts of God and in that time when as controuersies might haue bene referred wythout daunger of error vnto one only thys ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the gifts are les and the danger of error more to make an archbyshop for the deciding of controuersies and auoiding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to whych so euer of the apostles the controuersy had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue geuen a true sentence of it And if any can shew me one man in these times of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce the truth of euery question whych shall arise he shall make me somewhat more fauorable to the archbyshop then presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter should lye only vpon his hand seeing that the apostles whych could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them and seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersy is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mennes minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to cōfute falshode it is euident that S. Paule doth hold forth as it were a buckler against the frowardnes of certaine the authority of the church Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the apostles time and by them how commeth it to pas that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to pas that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are found I hold of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whych are sayd to be the cause of the archbyshop ordaineth a cleane contrary to thys that M. Doctor commendeth For when two or three prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. And how commeth it to pas that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and loking euery day when he should geue vp hys last breath commended vnto the church a perfect and an absolute ministery standing of .v. parts wherin he maketh mention not one word of an archbyshop and sayeth further that that ministery is able to entertain the perfect vnity and knitting togither of the church Do not all these things speake or rather cry that there was not so much as a step of an archbyshop in the apostles times And if you will say that the apostles did ordaine archbyshops as you haue in dede sayd do now againe when as there is not one word in the wrytings of them I pray you tell vs how
there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or byshops in euery congregation Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery churche thys was no doubt the first step Afterwardes he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content them selues to be byshops of one church but to desire to be byshops of a diocese whervnto although it seemeth that there was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreed often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuailed and thys was an other step Then were there archbishops of whole prouinces whych was the third stayer vnto the seat of antichriste Afterwards they were Patriarks of one of the .iiij. corners of the whole world the whole church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to saye of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine byshops And these fower stayers being layd of Sathan there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherin he nowe sitteth Hauing now showed howe thys Lordly estate of the byshop began and vpon what a rotten ground it is builded I come to shew how farre the byshops in our time are for their pompe and outward statelines degenerated from the byshops of elder times And heere I call to remembraunce that whych was spoken of the poore estate of Basile and Theodorete and if M. Doctor will say as he doth in deede in a certaine place that thē was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easely answeared that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good emperors But that shall appeare better by the Canons whych were rules geuen for the byshops to frame them selues by In the. 4. councell of Carthage it is decreed that the byshops should haue a little house neare vnto the church what is thys compared wyth so many faire large houses and wyth the princely palace of a byshop And in the same councel it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of hys house after the commen sorte and that hys table and diet should be pore and that he should get him estimation by faithfulnes and good conuersation And in an other councell that the byshops shoulde not giue them selues to feastes but be content wyth a little meate Let these byshops be compared wyth oures whose chambers shine wyth gilt whose walles are hanged wyth clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden wyth plate whose tables and diets are furnished wyth multitude and diuersity of dishes whose daily dinners are feastes Let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those olde byshops were aliue they wold not know each other For they would thinke that oures were princes and oures woulde thinke that they were some hedge priests not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no byshop sitting in any place should suffer any minister or elder to stand Nowe I will report me to themselues how thys is kept and to the pore ministers whych haue to do with them and come before them The byshops in times past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the gospell to haue a number of men before and behynde them And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought relygion into hatred and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captaine of two hundreth then a byshoppe because he had gotten him a sort of seruing men to waight on hym An other example not vnlyke and likewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a byshop Now in our dayes it is thought a commendation to the byshop a credite to the gospell if a byshop haue 30. 40. 60. or moe wayting of hym some before some behynde whereof three partes of them set apart the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the church and commōwealth also with all kynde of disorders and greater incommodities then I minde to speake of because it is not my purpose And heere I will note an other cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of byshoppes wherin although I will say more in a worde for the pompeous estate then M. Doctor hath done in all hys treatise yet I will shew that although it were more tollerable at the first now it is by no meanes to be borne with * In the ecclesiasticall story we read that the inscriptions of dyuers epystles sent vnto byshops were timiotatois kyriois We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations which Ambrose byshop of Millain had As for the title of most honorable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country for all those that know the maner of the speach of the Grecians do well vnderstand how they vsed to call euery one of any meane countenaunce in the common wealth where he lyued kyrion that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelistes vse the worde Kyrios to note a meane person as when Mary in the. 20. of Iohn thinking that our sauiour Christ had bene the keper of the garden calleth hym Kyrion So likewise in Fraunce they call euery one that is gentilman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they will say also fainng your honour Now we know thys word Lord in our countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupyeth and therfore those titles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as oures are And as touching Ambrose house albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildinges of our byshoppes yet the cause whereupon thys rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth geuing ouer hys office dyd retayne hys house and that which hee had gotten But our byshops doe maynteyne thys pompe and excesse of the charges of the church with whose goodes a great number of idle loytering seruing men are mayntayned which ought to be bestowed vpon the ministers which want necessary finding for their families and vpon the poore and mayntenance of the vniuersities As for these riotous expences of the church goodes when many other mynisters want and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lordes and maiestrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the church by thys meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in a certayne place where thys is handled more at large By thys which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of thys excesse and stately pompe of the byshops namely that
certeine noble and rich men being chosen to the ministerie and lyuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before others also assayed to be like vnto them as we see in that poynt the nature of man is too ready to follow if they see any example before theyr eyes But there is no reason because Ambrose and such lyke dyd so therefore our byshops shoulde do it of the churches costes Nor because Ambrose and such like dyd tary in their trim houses which they had built them selues of theyr owne charge before they were byshops that therefore they shuld come out of theyr chambers or narow houses into courtes and palaces builded of the churches costes An other reason of thys pompe and statelynes of the byshoppes was that which almost brought in all poyson and popishe corruption into the church and that is a foolish emulation of the maners and fashions of the Idolatrous nations For as thys was the craft of sathan to draw away the Israelites from the true seruice of God by theyr fond desire they had to conforme them selues to the fashyons of the gentiles so to punish vnthankefull receiuing of the gospell and to fulfill the Prophesies touching the man of sinne the Lord suffered those that professed Christ to corrupt theyr wayes by the same sleyght of the Deuill Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he myght promote the Idolatry and superstition whereunto he was addicted chose of the choysest magistrates to be priestes and that they myght be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to follow them And the christians and christian Emperours thinking that that would promote the christian relygion that promoted superstition and not remembring that it is often times abhomynable before God which is esteemed in the eyes of men endeuoured to make theyr byshops encounter and match with those Idolatrous priestes and to cause that they should not be inferior to them in wealth and outward pompe And therfore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence thys pompe and statelynes of byshops haue come are so corrupt and naught the thing it selfe which hath rysen of such causes can not be good And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbyshops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Byshops haue besides the names almost nothing common with those which haue bene in elder tymes before the sunne of the gospell began to be maruellously darkned by the stincking mistes which the deuill sent forth out of the bottomles pit to blynde the eyes of men that they shoulde not see the shame and nakednes of that purpled whore which in the person of the cleargy long before she gat into her seate prepared her selfe by paynting her wrythen face with the couloures of these gorgeous titles and with the shew of magnifycall and worldly pompe For the deuill knew well enough that if he should haue sette vp one only byshoppe in that seate of perdition and left all the rest in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that hys eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to gette into that and when he had gotten it yet being as it were an owle amongst a sort of birdes shoulde haue bene quickly discouered But I haue done only thys I admonishe the reader that I doe not allow of all those thinges which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbyshoppes and the Archbyshops of olde tyme or our byshoppes and theirs Only my entent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how smale cause there is that they should alleage theyr examples to confirme the Archbyshops and Byshops that now are Concerning the offices of commissionership and how vnmeete it is that mimisters of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shal be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew and Luke the reply is made before The place of the fourthe of the first to the Corinthyans is well alledged for it teacheth a moderate estymation of the mynisters and a meane betwene the contempt and excessiue estymation neyther can there be any redyer way to breede that disorder which was amongst the Corinthyans as to say I holde of such a one and I of such a one and I of such an other then to sette vp certayne mynisters in so hyghe Titles and great shew of worldly honoure For so commeth it to passe that the people will saye I beleeue my Lord and my Lord archbyshoppe whatsoeuer oure parson say for they bee wyse men and learned as wee see it came to passe amongst the Corrinthyans For the Apostles because they hadde a shewe and outwarde pompe of speache they caryed away the people For althoughe Saynt Paule sayeth that some sayde I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo I of Cephas yet as it appeareth in an other place they helde one of thys braue eloquent teacher an other of that For hee translated these speaches vnto hym and hys fellowes by a fygure All that rule is tyrannycall whiche is not lawfull and is more then it oughte to bee and therfore the place of Saynt Peter is fitly alleaged whereof also I haue spoken some thing before You are you say of Hemingius mynde and thincke that thys opynion smelleth of Anabaptisme I haue shewed how you haue depraued and corrupted Hemingius and desire you to shew some better reason of your opynion autos ephe will not suffice vs You say that if we had once obtayned equalitie amongst the cleargie we would attempt it in the laitie In what starre doe you see that Maister Doctor Moyses sayth that if a man speake of a thing to come and it come not to passe as he hath spoken that that man is a false Prophet if your prophesie come not to passe you know your iudgement already out of Moyses The Pharisies when our sauiour Christ inueighed agaynst their ambytion accused hym that he was no freende to Cesar and went about to discredite hym with the cyuill Magistrate you shall apply it your selfe you will needes make the Archbyshoppe c. neyghboures vnto the cyuill Magistrates and yet they almost dwell as farre a sonder as Rome and Ierusalem and as Syon and S. Peters Church there so that the house of the archbyshoppe may bee burnt sticke and stone when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the cyuill magistrate In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the archbyshoppe is alleaged the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioch which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those times was from that which is now For there the Councell sheweth that euery Byshoppe
let him as though there were some variance betwene the people and the minister or as though he were afraide of some infection of plage And in dede it renueth the memory of the Leuitical priesthode whych did withdrawe himselfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinnes of the people Likewise for Mariage he cometh backe againe into the body of the church and for baptisme vnto the church dore what comelines what decency what edifying is thys Decencie I say in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and after that sort where he can worst be harde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the primitiue church both the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sitting amongste the rest to the ende he myght be the better heard rose not that only but that he stode in the midst of the people that his voyce might as much as might be come indifferently to all their eares and so standing both prayed and preached Now if it be said for the chapters Letany there is commaundement geuen that they shuld be red in the body of the church in deede it is true and therof is easely perceiued this disorder whych is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end and partly in the further end of the chauncell For seeing that those are red in the body of the church that the people may both heare and vnderstand what is red what shuld be the cause why the rest should be red farther of vnles it be that either those things are not to be heard of them or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or midst of the church And if it be further sayd that the boke leaueth that to the discretion of the ordinarye and that he may reforme it if there be any thing amis then it is easely answered again that besides that it is against reason that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduise and discretion it should be well or euell wyth the church Besides this I say we see by experience of the disorders whych are in many churches and dioceses in thys behalfe how that if it were lawfull to commit such authority vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill quitten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience wherof being so easely sene and so easely reformed there is notwythstanding so greate and so generall an abuse And the end of the order in the boke is to be obserued which is to kepe the praiers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell whych how maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole Liturgy or in the most part of it both that I may haue no nede to repete the same in the particulares and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so ofte as M. Doctor sayeth very vnskilfully and vnlike a deuine whence so euer thys or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the church of Christ Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whych is prescribed wherin the authors of the admonition declare that their meaning is not to disalow of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys forme that we haue For they expound themselues in the additions vnto the first part of the admonition It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himselfe to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyrs testimony which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers He sayth in dede the auncient fathers say that there hathe bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the churches although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easely that M. doctor speaketh thys rather by coniecture or that he hath heard other mē say so for so much as that Doctor whych he hathe chosen out to speake for all the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptised they pray for them selues for hym that is baptised and for all men that they may be mete to learne the truth and to expres it in their honest conuersation and that they be found to kepe the commaundements that they may attaine to eternal life but is this to say the there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chefe poynts vpon the whych they conceiued their prayers If you had alleaged thys to proue what were the matters or principall poyntes that the primitiue church vsed to pray for you had alleaged thys to purpose but to alleage it for a profe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mētioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer whych is the asking of our petitions in the name and through the intercession of our sauior Christ without the whych there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that either you litle know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as muche as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the church let that go thys that I haue sayd is to shew that when M. Doctor hapneth of a good cause whych is very seldome in this boke yet then he marreth it in the handling After he affirmeth that there can be nothing shewed in the whole boke whych is not agreeable vnto the word of God. I am very lothe to enter into this field albeit M. Doctor dothe thus prouoke me bothe because the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstand that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynte as for that some fewe professors of the gospell being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Notwythstanding my duetie of defending the truthe and loue whych I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrey constraineth me being thus prouoked to speake a fewe woordes more particularly of the fourme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof doe appeare it may please the Queenes maiestie and her honourable Councell wyth those of the Parliamente whome the Lorde hathe vsed as singulare instrumentes to deliuer thys realme from the hotte furnaice and iron yoke of the popishe Egipte to procure also that the corruptions whych we haue broughte from them as those wysh whych we being so deepely dide and stained haue not so easely shaken
skill and vnderstanding then he hath of that court The reply vnto the next section in the. 89. 90. 91. 92. 93. pages WHereas vnto the Admonition prouing out of the thirde of S. Mathew that preaching muste goe before the mynistring of the sacramentes you answere first that it is agaynst all Logicke to conclude a generall rule vpon a particulare example you shall vnderstande that that which Iohn dyd in that poynt he dyd it not as a singular person or as the sonne of Ê’acharie but as the mynister of the gospell and therefore it appertayneth as well to all other mynisters as vnto hym For as it is a good conclusion that for so much as Peter in that he is a man is borne to haue and by common course of nature hath two legges therefore Iohn and Thomas and all the rest haue so euen so for so much as Iohn by reason of hys ministery had neede first to preach then to baptise it followeth that all others that haue that ministery committed vnto them must do the lyke Secondarely you say that it doth not appeare that he preached immediatly before he baptised them with water And yet S. Mathew after that he had shewed that he preached repentaunce which the other Euangelistes call the baptisme of repentance he addeth that then the people were baptysed of him which also may appeare in the Actes where S. Paule noteth thys order to haue bene kept For although betwene the story of hys preaching and that which is sayde of hys baptising there is interlaced a description of hys dyet and of hys apparel yet these wordes then came vnto hym c. must needes be referred vnto the tyme which followed hys preaching And where as you say that it is manyfest that our sauiour Christ was baptysed without preaching I would know of you what one worde doth declare that when as the contrary rather doth appeare in S. Luke which seemeth to note playnly that our sauiour Christ was baptised when the people were baptysed But the people as I haue shewed were baptysed immediatly after they heard Iohn preach therefore it is lyke that our sauiour Christ was baptysed after that he had heard Iohn preach And it is very probable that our sauiour Christ which dyd honoure the mynistery of God by the hand of men so farre as he would voutchsafe to bee baptysed of Iohn would not neglect or passe by hys mynistery of the word being more precious then that of the sacrament as it appeareth by Iohn that our sauiour Christ was present at hys sermons for so much as S. Iohn doth as he was preaching to the people poynt hym out with the finger and told them that he was in the middest of them which was greater then he And there is no doubt but those words which our sauiour Christ sayd before hys supper although they are gathered by the Euangelistes into short sentences were notwithstanding long sermons touching the fruite of hys death and vse and ende of that sacrament And thys order of preaching immedyatly before the mynistring of the sacramentes is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Actes of the Apostles But I will not precisely say neyther yet doe the authors of the Admonition affirme as M. Doctor surmyseth of them that there must be preaching immediatly before the admynistration of the sacramentes Thys I say that when as the lyfe of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde of God there must of necessitie the worde of God bee not red but preached vnto the people amongste whom the sacramentes are mynistred And forasmuch as I haue proued before that no man may mynister the sacramentes but he which is able to preache the word although I dare not affirme that there is an absolute necessitie that the word should be preached immediatly before the sacramentes be mynistred yet I can imagine no case wherein it is eyther meete or conuenient or else almost sufferable that the sacramentes should be mynistred without a sermon before them for the mynister being as hee oughte of necessitie to bee able to preache oughte so to doe And if it be sayde that hys health or voyce will not serue hym sometymes to preache when he is able enough to mynister the sacramentes I say that eyther he ought to begge the helpe of an other mynister hard by or else there is lesse inconuenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament vntill hee bee strong enough to preach then ministring it so maymedly and without a sermon wherby it is sene how iust cause M. Doctor hath to cal these blynde and vnlearned gatherings which he with hys Egles eye and hys great learning can not scatter nor once moue After thys M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church and thys accusation he followeth in many wordes and in dyners places wherein as in a number of other places of theyr booke the authors of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus which is that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant that is by and by expounded otherwyse then it is ment of hym that speaketh it so that that which is geuen with the ryght hand is receiued with the left For the authors of the Admonition declaring theyr vtter mislyking that there should be in stead of a preaching minister a reading mynister if I may so call hym and in stead of preaching reading are vntruely expounded of M. doctor as though they condemned all reading in the church And heere he maketh hym selfe worke picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper to proue that which no man denyeth for besydes thys treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 1â—0 page and so lighteth vs a candel at noone dayes It is a token of a nature disposed to no great quietnesse which rather then he would not striue striueth with hym selfe And although the cause be iust and good which he defendeth yet I will note in a word or two how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in hys handes hee defyleth whatsoeuer he toucheth First therefore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whether the word of God is not as effectual when it is red as when it is preached or whether reading be not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayeth then the comparyson of the profite and efficacy betwene one and the other is absurde yet I will answere to both I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectuall red as preached For S. Paule sayth that fayth commeth by hearing hearing of the word preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke fayth by is preaching and not reading And although reading
and that the mynister made prayers and thankes geuing in the hearing of the people which is that which the Euangelistes call the blessing and hath bene of later tymes called the consecration and after that the people were partakers of them that then thys being done the deacons dyd cary of that which was left vnto those which were not present for that corruption of sending the communion vnto the houses was then in the churche agaynst which I haue before spoken now if to cary to a priuate house the breade and wyne which was blessed or set a part by prayers by obeying the institution of Christ by the mynister be to mynister the sacrament of the supper then Serapions boye of whome mention is made by Eusebius mynistred the sacrament For Serapion being sicke as I haue before shewed and sending hys boye to the mynister for the sacrament receiued the same at the handes of hys boye for that the mynister being sicke could not come hym selfe so by M. Doctors reason Serapions boye mynistred the sacrament And a man would not thinke that one that hath bene the Quenes Maiesties publike professor of diuinitie in Cambridge should not know to distinguish put a difference betwene mynistring the sacrament helping to distribute the bread and the cup of the sacrament And if M. Doctor could not learne thys in bokes yet he might haue eyther sene it or at least heard tell of it in all the reformed churches almost where the Deacons doe assist the mynister in helping of hym to distribute the cuppe and in some places also the bread for the quicker and spedyer dispatch of the people being so many in number that if they should all receiue the bread and the cuppe at the mynisters hand they should not make an end in eight houres which by that assistance may be finished in two which is tha◠that M. Caluin sayth For he sayth the Deacons dyd reach the cup maketh no mention of the bread And if thys be to mynister the sacrament then they that cut the loafe in peeces they that fetch the wine for the supper they that poure it forth from greater vessels into glasses and cuppes or whosoeuer aydeth any thing in thys action doe mynister the sacrament then the which thing there can be nothing more ridyculous In the ende M. Doctor to shut vp thys matter sayth that it is the first steppe to the mynistery and so ioyned of S. Paule in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothe But what a reason is thys to be a Deacon is the first step to the mynistery therefore the Deacon may preach and mynister the sacraments when as the contrary rather followeth For if it be a step to the mynistery then it is not the mynistery but differeth from it and so ought not to doe the things that belong to the mynister But I deny that it is or ought to be alwayes a steppe to the mynistery I knew that it hath bene the vse of long tyme I know also that there be very many which interpreate the place of S. Paule where he speaking of the Deacons that behaue them selues well that they get them selues a good bathmon that is a degree to be a mynister or a byshop But I will shew a manifest reason why it can not so be vnderstanded which is for that as the functions of a Deacon or a mynister are dyuers so are the giftes also wherby those functions are executed likewyse dyuers And therefore there may be some men for their wisedome and grauitie discretion and faythfulnesse and whatsoeuer other giftes are required in hym that shoulde doe thys office of prouyding for the poore and to be a good Deacon which notwithstanding for some impediment in hys tongue or for want of vtterance shall neuer be able as long as he lyueth to be a good mynister of the word and therefore the giftes being dyuers wherewith those offices must be executed although it is neyther vnlawfull nor vnmeete to make of a Deacon a mynister if he haue giftes for that purpose yet I deny that S. Paule appoynteth that the Deaconship shoulde be as it were the seede or frie of the mynisters or that he meaneth by those words that the Deaconship is a steppe to the pastorshyp Which may yet also further appeare by the phrase of speach which the Apostle vseth For he doth not say that they that do the office of Deaconship well shall come to or get a good standing but he sayth that in so doing they doe gette themselues a good standing that is they get themselues authoritie estimation in the church whereby they may be both the bolder to doe their office and whereby they may doe it with more frute Whereas when they liue naughtely they neyther dare doe oftentimes that which they should doe nor yet that which they doe well taketh so good effect because of the discredite which commeth by their euill behauiour And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hetherto nothing to proue why either Deacōs ought or else haue wont eyther to preach or to mynister the sacramentes And albeit M. Doctor be not able to shew it yet I confes that it hath bene in tymes past permitted vnto them in some churches to baptise in other some to preach and baptise and sometymes also to mynister the supper but I say also that thys was a corruption and vsed at those tymes when there were many other grose vntollerable abuses from the which I doe appeale vnto that which was first that is the institution of the Apostles which lymitted and bounded euery function within hys seuerall limites and borders which it ought not to passe Vnto the three next sections contayned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages touching that which is called the introite and fragments of the Epistles and Gospels and the rehersall of the Nicene Crede I haue declared before the causes of our mislyking neyther meane I to stand to refute the slaunderous surmises which M. D. rayseth of the authors of the Admonition wherby he would bring thē into the suspitiō of Arrianisme to whom all those that feare God beare witnes y they are most far from He him selfe notwithstanding once again in the last of these three sections 96. page doth lay the manyfest foundations of that part of Anabaptisme which standeth in hauing al things common saying directly agaynst S. Peter that in the tyme of the Apostles Christians had proprietie in nothing And further geuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Catabaptistes and such as deny the baptisme of yong infants in matching that with those things which the church may although not without incommoditie yet without impietie be without and of the other syde vnto the papistes whilest he sayth that we reade not of any women which receiued the Lords supper in the Apostles tyme For thys is that they alledge to proue theyr vnwritten verityes when as
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
So M. Doctor wryte he careth not what he write Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorshyp will geue waight to that which is light and pithe to that which is froth or else he would neuer answere thus For then I will if thys be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the pastor or byshoppe which preacheth the woorde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a byshop or a pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimony of all the scriptures and yet hee reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the scripture For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duetie of a senyor described in that place therefore there is no duety at all and consequently no senyor Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as thys place hath bene vsed to proue a pastor or byshop in euery church therfore it can not be vsed to proue these elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to them selues nor falsification of the place but only a must before M. Doctors eyes which will not let hym see a playne and euident truth which is that the word elder is generall and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne only as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule And whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the place of the Corinthes may bee vnderstanded of cyuill magistrates of preaching mynisters of gouernoures of the whole churche and not of euery particulare churche and fynally any thing rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderstanded I say first that he styll stumbleth at one stone which is that he can not put a difference betwene the church and common wealth and so betwene the church officers which he there speaketh of and the officers of the common wealth those which are ecclesiasticall and those which are cyuill Then that he meaneth not the mynister which proacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church onles he shoulde meane a Pope and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which gouerneth a whole prouince besides that it is a bolde speach without all warrant I haue shewed before that the word of God alloweth of no such office and therefore it remayneth that it must be vnderstanded of thys office of Elders The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayeth of the place to the Romaines where speaking of the offyces of the church after that hee had set forth the office of the pastor and of the doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Churche whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only the other in prouyding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places I shoulde adde the sentences of the wryters vpon those places as M. Caluin M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easely appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to daily with the scriptures and to make them a nose of waxe in alledging of these to proue the elders that all men might vnderstand what terrible outcryes he maketh as in thys place so almost in all other when there is cause that he shoulde lay hys hand vpon hys mouth Thys I am compelled to wryte not so much to proue that there were senyors in euery church which is a thing confessed as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations And as for the proufe of elders in euery congregation besydes hys confession I neede haue no more but hys owne reason For he sayeth that the office of these elders in euery church was in that tyme wherein there were no christian magistrates and when there was persecution but in the Apostles tymes there was both persecution and no christian magistrates therefore in theyr tyme the office of these elders was in euery congregation I come therefore to the second poynt wherein the question especially lyeth which is whether thys function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche And it is to be obserued by the way that where as there are dyuers sortes of aduersaryes to thys disciplyne of the church Maister Doctor is amongst the worst For there be that saye that thys order may be vsed or not vsed now at the lybertie of the churches But M. Doctor sayeth that thys order is not for these tymes but only for those tymes when there were no christian magistrates and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which hauing christian magistrates yet notwithstanding retayne thys order still And to the ende that the vanitie of thys distinction which is that there oughte to bee senyors or auncientes in the tymes of persecution and not of peace vnder tyrantes and not vnder christian magistrates may appeare the cause why these senyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church is to bee consydered which must needes be graunted to bee for that the pastor not being able to ouersee all hym selfe and to haue hys eyes in euery corner of the church and places where the churches aboade might be helped of the auncientes Wherin the wonderfull loue of God towards hys church doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of hys dyd not content hym selfe to appoynt one only ouerseer of euery church but many ouer euery church And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian magistrate not able to ouersee all hym selfe nor hys eyes can not bee in euery place of the paryshe present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well now as in the tyme of persecution as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an auncient or seignior is required Onles you will say that God hath lesse care of hys church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate then he hath in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant In deede if so bee the auncientes in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplyed the roume of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things which belonged vnto hym then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church the office of the senior or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate shuld haue ceased But when as the auncient neither dyd nor by any meanes might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrant thē vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why
our honoures or our commodities and wealth but as I haue sayd our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death that he might shew vs an example and forthwith speaketh of God which rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of these things Fourthly if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer which is that the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys and say that these thinges or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away Therefore it is to be obserued what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothe and in hym all that hee should keepe all these things not vntill the tyme of peace or to the times of Christian Princes but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church being a part of that order and gouernment of the church which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be changed So that we haue not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no commaundement but we haue also a straight commaundement I say the onely examples ought to moue vs for what way can we safelyer follow then the common hygh way beaten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles and of all the churches Things also growing and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment whereby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles aduise haue gone but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaundement and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene and a hundred and fifteene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past but sayth that it ought not now so to bee For sayeth hee the tymes alter the gouernment and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of prosperitie as in the tyme of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayeth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vnder a tyrant onles thys be a reason that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the tyme of the Apostles as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times greater necessyty vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauaile were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery then are the mynisters of these dayes Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes when the mynisters were so well and so richly replenished with such giftes much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the mynisters of these dayes wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge and dyligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose handes so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes other handes then the mynisters now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier then theirs were haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had Agayne if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted therefore pore churches with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well are worthy double honour whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured that is haue that wherewyth shee might honestly and soberly liue if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders which being poore were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church because they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires to wayte of the affaires of the church how much more ought there now to be senyors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so pore and when there may be chosen such for the most part thoroughout the realme as are able to liue without charging the church any whit as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon that is free and without charges as much as is possible and so loth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those which were poore dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thincke that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue thys office without charge ought to receiue thys order of auncientes Moreouer those that be learned know that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall that
not be husbandmen crafts mē c. yet may haue ciuil offices I thinke far otherwise that although neither be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable then the other For seing after the ministery of the word there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde then the office of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen to lay some lyghter charge of exercising handy craft then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate least the efficacy and power of the simplicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these gloryous shewes And least whylest the mynyster haue the woorde in one hande and the sword in the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubt with them selues whether the feare out ward shew of the mynister caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word But M. Doctor sayeth that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall it is so and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so muche as they together with the care of relygion procure and prouide for the things wherby we may quietly and commodiously lyue here where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly spirituall which you take marchandyse husbandry and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God returne to hym agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to hys glory so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bring hym downe to the plough as promote hym to the courte And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasticall because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes I meruayle that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences and appoynting bodely punishmentes which are meere cyuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with An other of Maister Doctors reasons is that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes aswell as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law because by executing them he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betwene hym and the byshop yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it For wee know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the lawes then as hys similytude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght and is no simylitude As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples which may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech afterward in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lord toke from Moses being so wise godly a man the priesthode gaue it to Aaron and to hys successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church make it famous renoumed in the world he gaue thys order It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lord did not tary vntil Moses death but toke the priesthode away frō Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elie or Samuell And thys may be also easely seene for that in a maner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche these offices were mynistred by seuerall persons and then met were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and myserable And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and mynister the sacramentes For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices because Elie and Samuell being mynisters did so the Princes and Iudges may preach the word and mynister the sacramentes because Elie and Samuell being princes and iudges dyd so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to defende one confusion bringeth in an other As for Elias killing the false prophetes and our sauiour Christes whipping out of the temple it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may cal for fire from heauen as Elias dyd and being demaunded answere nothing as our sauiour dyd as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set by thys a man may proue that the mynisters may be fyshers and tent makers because Peter and Paule being mynisters dyd fyshe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a councell that rather then a mynister should haue two benefices he might labor with hys handes to supply hys want withall When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he dyd commit nothing les then any ciuill office vnto hym And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before as a thing incident to the office of a byshop and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now that maketh thys a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thincke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgement that the church in the tyme of persecution may make ciuill officers