scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
Religion whiche it first receaued neque heresis vlla illic sumpsit exordium and that no heresie did spring there But to our matter that forwardnes in the Latine Churche he confesseth I thinke in respect of Tertullian whose manifest testimonies he coulde not otherwise shift him of and therefore of him somewhere he saith thus I denie that any of the auncient Fathers in Christ his time or Scholars to his Apostles Pu. 435. or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges besides in any one worde mainteined your cause for Purgatorie or Prayers for the deade Mary Montanus of whom Tertullian receaued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes Againe I will not denie but you haue much drosse and dragges of the later sorte of Doctors Pur. 247. and the later the fuller of drosse But bring me any worde out of any that did write within one .100 yeares after Christ that alloweth prayer or almes for the dead Where as we sée by the later sort of Doctors he sheweth him self to meane such as were without one .100 yeares after Christ But of that one .100 yeares also together with Tertullian and the Fathers afore him vp vnto Christ we shall haue occasion to say more anone in our third Article Hauing therefore thus shewed in this first Article howe he chargeth the true confessed Fathers of the true confessed Church with this error as which he summeth vp together in an other place Pur. 458. and saith The error was continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Let vs now sée how he chargeth the same whole true Churche for some time with the same and that the more briefely because we haue nowe so often hard him say of so many times that it was the common error of that time and that time ij What he saieth of the whole Church in some of those times Pur. 382. Thus he saith in one place If we be asked how we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Churche for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the dead We answere that we denye the practise to be generall because wee finde it Is nothing generall but that vvhich you find in them not in the most auncient writers that liued within an hundreth yeares and more after the time of Christ But what say you to the later practise which for places then was generall though for times you count it particular And to the particular practise of later times we answere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise Againe in an other place 370. The same order that was before Epiphanius and error that was in Epiphanius time doe all the later Liturgies followe and therefore saye I all the later Byshoppes and Priestes and people because they vsed those Liturgies making memorie and prayers for all them that are departed in the faith What saye you then to that practise so generall In the memorie of all departed they followe the olde order in praying for all they followe the later error which had chaunged the sacrifice of thankes geuing into the sacrifice of prayer But more of the olde Liturgies nowe in the thirde Article which must be of the originall that the Fathers referred this their practise vnto iij. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And here first for perspicuitie I remember to the Reader what S. Augustine saith of fasting August â—pist 86. Casul In the Scriptures of the new Testament Video praeceptum esse Ieiunium I see that fasting is commaunded But what dayes we must keepe fast Non inuenio in illis literis euidenter praeceptum I finde not in those scriptures euidently commaunded And yet the fast of fortie dayes before Easter and some others both he many moe of the Fathers doe say to be Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— commended vnto vs in the Scripture of the new Testament but specially that it coÌ„meth expresly vnto vs of the Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— Apostles tradition without Scripture The like they say of prayer for the dead that it is expresly found in the holy Scripture But the certaine times that it is solemnely practised as vpon the burial day the third seuenth thirteth fourteth yeares day and also in a certaine speciall prayer of the holy Masse are they say eyther all or some of them of the Apostles plaine TraditioÌ„ though also commaunded to vs out of Scripture So say the Fathers and for their so saying let vs now sée what this maÌ„ saith of them And to omit because it requireth a longer treatie that he maketh in effect no lesse then heretiks of S. Augustine with others Infr ca. â— Pur. 214 for auouching sacrifice for the dead out of the booke of Maccabées as out of Canonical scripture Gregorie Bernard Bede whoÌ„ D. Allen alleageth vpon the place of Mathew 12 are of opinion Pur. 19. â— Gre. 4.19 Ber. Ser. in Cant Bed in Mar. 3. saith Fulke that sinnes not remitted in this world may be remitted in the world to come But howe happeneth it that Chrysostome and Ieronym which both interpreted that place coulde gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed Prayer for the deade the reason must needes be because the error of Purgatorie growing so much the stronger as it were nearer to the full reuelation of Antichrist Gregorie and Bede sought not the true meaning of Christ in this Scripture but the confirmation of their plausible error Then S. Chrysostome bylike will please him Pur. 251.247 Chris ho. â—4 in 1. cor 15. Such pitie may bring you into the pit of hell Pur. 237. but heare I pray you out of an other place I denie not but that Chrysostome doth alleage this example of Iob sacrificing for his children Cap. 1. for prayers to profite the dead What shall we say Those good men in that declining state of the Church to superstition being destitute of the cleare testimonies of Scripture to maintaine those plausible errors are driuen to such simple shiftes to vphold them as it is great pittie to see Againe But where learned Chrysostome that prayers and almes had any comfort in them for the dead surely he alleageth Scripture but he applieth it madly and yet he often applieth it to the same purpose Pur. 226. Amb. de obit Theod. Alas good man Likewise Ambrose commendeth Honorius the young Emperour for solemnising the funerals of Theodosius his father by the space of .40 dayes after the example of Ioseph Genesis .50 such superstition crept into the Churche first by emulation of the Paganes and after seeking for colourable confirmation in the examples of the
Iewel where he had Pur. 145.148 that the Church of God might erre Behold I pray you the confidence of this man in his answere therevnto Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath so substantially and learnedly defended that For many Pâ—testants neeâ— no other boâ— to become Câ—â—tholikes he neede not to haue any other man to answere for him Therfore if it were not to choke M. Allen in his owne coller I would trauell no further in this question How then doth he strangle the man The Church you say can not erre and that companie is the Church which hath the Pope for their head Very true both the one and the other If therfore it can be proueâ— that the Pope and all they that take his parte haue erred it is sufficiently shewed that the Churche maye erre Say then S. Augustine was in this error as you will not denie that the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ was to be ministred to Infants But of the same opinion he affirmeth that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church in his time was Therfore the Pope and all the Church did erre Reade Augustine contra Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. Whether he saith of Innocentius Qui denique paruulos definiuit nisi manduc auerinâ— carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse Which hath defined that Infantes except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man can haue no life at all in them And by eating the flesh of the sonne of man he meaneth eating the sacrament of his flesh and bloud as it is euident to them that will bestow the reading of Augustines discourse in that place Pur. 309. Againe in an other place And by the waye note here one practise of a notable error in Augustines time that the Sacrament of the Lords supper was giuen to children which wist not what it ment contrarie to the worde of God who requireth men to examine them selues before they receiue it Wherfore if any other practise were in his time or allowed by him contrarie to Gods worde we are no more bound vnto it then vnto this which euen the Papistes them selues Or els you can not â—eâ—l will confesse to be erroneous Yea he is not afrayde to preferre the very Pelagians in this poynt before all Gods Church of that time Pur. 390. saying In S. Augustines dayes of whose time the historie of the Church is By vvhat Historiographaâ— largely set foorth vnto vs who preached or writ agaynst that error which he and Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church as he confessed did hold that Infants must receiue the holy Communion or els they should be damned who preached against this error except perhaps the Pelagians that were horrible heretikes Agayne Why was it reuealed to the Pelagians Pur. 422. that Infantes might be saued without the participation of the sacrament of Christes body and bloud rather then vnto S. Austine Innocentius Bishop of Rome and as Augustine saith and the Catholike Fathers of that time which thought it was as necessarie for them to receiue the Communion as to be baptized The reuealing of his ignorant sawcines herein I reserue to the sixt Chapter Here I do no more but note what errors he layeth to the true Churches charge which bene these that you haue heard ¶ The fifte Chapter What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors THus haue we heard of him that the true Church may remayne the true Church although it erre and that it hath erred in many of the same articles wherein we do nowe erre and moreouer in many other articles beside wherein we do not erre wherof it followeth playnly that neither our erring nor these our errors no nor any other our errors are alone sufficient for him to depriue vs of the true Church And now not béeing able to depriue vs of the true Church if any man do yet thinke that for all that he is not constrayned to graunt to vs the true Church let the same man in this Chapter consider what reason he yéeldeth why our Fathers notwithstanding their foresaid errors had the true Church and he shal most euidently perceiue that by the same reason we notwithstanding our errors haue likewise the true Church He nameth somewhere Tertullian Cyprian Origen Ar. 61. Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Hieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. and saith of them as followeth But for as much as they holde the foundation that is Christ though they haue diuers errors and superstitions they were doubtles the members of the true Church of Christ Pur. 336 In an other place hauing said that in S. Augustines time they vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead and many other superstitions he addeth neither doth it folow that al that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vppon Christ the onely foundation haue perished Againe Ar. 74. We take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudgementes whom he condemneth or for what causes further then the worde of God teacheth vs namely that as many as haue not beleeued in the only sonne of God are condemned for their vnbeliefe other secret causes we remit to his secret counsel and knowledge Pur. 34â— In so much that where D. Allen presseth this newe founde Cleargie in our countrey for vsurping those Colledges other ecclesiastical prouisions against the willes of the first founders who meant them to such as should pray for their soules and not to suche as should preach agaynst the same he answereth of them likewise saith Whether any meant to mainteine preaching agaynst Masse or prayers for their owne soules as we know not whether they did or no so we count it not materiall c. and whether the buylders of such places be saued or damned it perteyneth not to vs to iudge or to enquire Agayne where D. Allen had shewed by example of S. Augustine of his mother and of others that they offered prayers and the sacrifice of the Altar for the dead Pur. 325 328. and therevpon concludeth saying Thus loe all these Fathers taughte thus they practised thus they liued thus they dyed none was saued then but in this fayth let no manne looke to be saued in any other nowe Nay saith Fulke not so For althogh they were in that time infected with some errors yet was the faith of their saluation in the only foundation Iesus Christ Pur. 238. c. in the only mercy of God Againe We confesse that in Chrysostomes dayes the onely foundation Iesus Christe was taught and the article of iustification by the only mercy of God was preached but yet we affirme that muche straw wood and other impure matter was buylded vpon the foundation whiche was a preparatiue to the kingdome of Antichrist which was not long after to be reuealed Pur. 287. And in an other place Cyprians
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
often as aboue in his Enchiridion graunteth the same fire to be also for the said mortall sinnes if one haue left committing of them but not yet fully redéemed them poenitentiae medicamentis with the plaisters of penance viij Of Limbus patrum And now we are come to your Doctors that you alleage agaynst Limbus Patrum The one is S. Augustine Pur. 56.60 Au. ep 99. of whose most cleare testimonie alleaged by D. Allen Because the (a) Act. 2. Scriptures make euident mention both of hell and of paynes I see no other cause why our Sauiour came thither according as we beleeue nisi vt ab eius doloribus saluos facerit But to ridde some of the paynes therof Fuisse enim apud inferos in eorum doloribus constitutis hoc beneficium praestitisse non dubito I am out of doubt that he was in hell and that he bestowed that gratious benefite vpon some that were in the paynes therof You are fayne to say that it is but the authoritie of a man But you haue another place a Gods name Where he semeth vtterly to deny that he came in that prison of hell And to make all sure you imagine what we will answere to it and then you make your reply But all besides the text like one that neuer saw the booke For he saith there as plainly as in the other place Fuit apud inferos Christi Anima diuinitas Aug. in Felicianū Arrianū ca. 17 18.15 Both the soule and the diuinitie of Christ was in hell But for what cause Vt anima animas reparet That his soule might repayre our soules and as aboue he said deliuer some soules out of their paynes there But not to suffer any paines there it selfe as the Arrians did blaspheme For if saith he in the words that you alleage his or the good théefes for it may be vnderstoode of either body being dead his soule is immediatly called to Paradise do we thinke any man yet so impious that he dare say our Sauiours soule in that three dayes of his bodily death apud inferos custodiae mancipetur is in hell committed to prison Lo syr what he vtterly denieth to wit that his soule was committed there to prison not that it came in that prison as to deliuer the prisoners Your other Doctor is S. Ireneus whom D. Allen first alleaged saying manifestly Pur. 55.59 Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. that Adam was Implens tempora eius cōdemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam Fulfilling the times of that condemnation which came by disobedience vntill our Lord came and then solutus est condemnationis vinculis he was released of the bonds of his condemnation And you answere that the name of Adam seemeth to be takē in these words rather for a name common signifying all mankinde then for a proper name Iesu how blindly Do you not know that he reporteth li. 1. ca. 31. that the proper Heresie of Tacianus was Adae saluti contradictionem faciens His ignorance that he gainsaide the saluation of Adam and after him S. Augustine Haer. 25. Saluti primi hominis contradicunt The Tacianistes gaynsay the saluation of the first man And do you not sée that he disputeth against that Heresie in the said place li. 3. euen from cap. 33. to 39. But you haue another place of his Iren. lib. 5. in fine where he plainly ouerthroweth our fantasie in that he saith of the place where Christes soule was those thrée dayes that it was suche a place as all his disciples shall rest in vntill the time of the generall Resurrection He saith not so he disputeth agaynst those old Heretikes Who said that immediatly assoone as they were dead they ascended aboue heauen and aboue the Creator and came to the mother or to their fayned father leauing their body for euer neuer to rise againe and therefore attayning al perfection and the highest promotion at once S. Irenée therfore auoucheth against them not only the Resurrection but also the order of the Resurrection and saith that if this were so then our Lorde giuing vp his Ghost vpon the Crosse would straight haue gone vpwarde leauing his body to the earth But he did not so Three dayes he conuersed where the dead were in the inferior parts of the earth in the middest of the shadow of death And then after that he arose corporally and after his resurrection was assumpted Séeing therefore no disciple is aboue his master saith he it is manifest by this that also his disciples soules shall goe he saith not into the same place but in inuisibilem locum definitum eis a deo into an inuisible place appoynted for them by God and there shall tarrie vntill the resurrection abiding the resurrection and afterwards receiuing agayne their bodies and rising perfectly that is corporally sic venient ad conspectum Dei so shall come to the sight of God to wit the whole man both in soule and body So he may well be vnderstood because the Soule of Christ also had the sight of God before his Resurrection Yet supposing that he thought neither so muche as the Soules to sée God before the Resurrection as some other Doctors did thinke vntill it was of late defined by the Church as I noted afore in the eight chapter yet that doth not declare as you pretende that he thought of Limbus Patrum otherwise then we do For you heard him saye afore that Adam at our Lordes comming was released out of that place béeing a place of captiuitie and nowe by him his soule is in that other inuisible place Whereof it followeth manifestly that by him the former place is not al one with the later And so thankes be to God I haue fully answered all that you alleage against Purgatorie or any other Article of the Catholike faith according to my promise in the beginning of this Chapter Whereby the Reader may perceaue perfect vnitie of faith to be betwixt the Fathers then and vs now notwithstanding all that you could bring And that so euidently that in most matters in most of the Fathers you were faine to pretend no lesse that one and the same man was not in vnitie with him selfe so that this chapter néeded not so much for defense of our doctrine as for the defense of the Doctors them selues against your childish and arrogant detractions ¶ The tenth Chapter That notwithstanding all which Fulke hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues and likewise euery one of those Articles standeth still in his force Euery one I say and much more al of them to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant BY the Summes or Argumentes of the chapters aforegoing the Reader may perceaue that being laide together they make a manifolde euident demonstration to the condemnation of the
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
are compelled to renounce the later which is the more proper and playnly peremptorie and to shrewde them selues in the former most vainly saying that the Church is called Catholike non ex totius orbis communione Epist 48. sed ex obseruatione omnium Praeceptorum Diuinorum atque omnium Sacramentorum Not of the whole worlds communion but for the keping of all Gods commaundements and of all the Sacraments By all this wrankling you winne nothing but this that you declare thereby the name to be ours and not yours as also by this that you defend your felowes for saying Vniuersal in stéede of Catholike and Congregation in stéede of Church Ar. 67. because say you they are so in English and are not els commonly vnderstanded You should haue said rather that they are so in Latine and then by your wise conceite one should tel the people of the gathering ouer all and they would vnderstand that better then the Catholike Church because these be Gréeke words Euen as if you would not name Baptisme vnto them but rather Ablution or washing Apostasie the cause of chaunging these vvords nor Heretike but a chuser nor Schismatike but a Cutter No my masters it was not for more perspicuitie it was not that you chaunged those knowen and worne names it was because they were preoccupated by vs afore you were borne and therefore were as a great blocke in your way to be remoued afore you could enter into the Christian hartes that you were to seduce for which cause your Apostasie hath gone about to chaūge trāslate more Greke names also thē those as you know Priest Bishop c. though they were vnderstanded well enough before Motiue 2. Article 19. 7. Heretikes The second rule is of the name Heretikes being the contrarie to the name Catholikes and therefore we néede now stand lesse about it That such as are of Christian men commonly called and knowen by the name of Heretikes are alwayes Heretikes in very déede To this Fulke agéeth not but correcteth it saying Ar. 65. Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deed and therefore say I Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius were Heretikes in déede because you confesse here cap. 2. that they were true Christians who called and counted them so But this not being for your vauntage you inferre otherwise And therefore the Papists being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians without doubt are Heretikes in dede Euen as vndoubtedly as you be true Christians that so call them That briefly is our answere to your rule though you answere it your selfe also where you say The Diuell stirred vp Tyrants Heretikes Popes Saracenes and Turkes Ar. 78. to destroy the Church who that counteth Popes to be Heretikes would so diuide What is now your answere to our rule Forsoth The true Christians were of the Arrian people who were people cōmonly called Christians called and taken for Heretikes What is that to the purpose but were they commonly called Heretikes euen so much as of the Arrians Euen as much as we now be cōmonly called Heretikes of you For you know pardie your selues that if you should in your talke and writing say Heretikes simpliciter as we do you could not be vnderstanded to speake of vs so as we be with all perspicuitie vnderstanded to speake of you Yea but although we be called Heretikes you say here cap. 7. pa. 80. yet in that our faith agreeth with the word of God we proue our selues in dede to be no Heretikes Witnesse here cap. 8. where al your deprauatiōs of Gods word are reuealed to your cōfusion 8. Protestantes Motiue 3. Article 18. The third rule is vpon the name Protestantes and such like That they haue always bene Heretikes who haue had such new names in respect of their seuerall faith and doctrine and always Schismatikes who haue had the like in respect of their seuerall cōmunion namely if they were obstinate therin To this Fulke answereth We desire most of all to be called Christians Ar. 65.66 coūting it a most honorable name although in reproch we be called of you Caluinists and Lutherans As the true Christians of old were of the Arrians called in reproch Homousians and Athanasians I told you in my Demaunds that to be like rather to this that Luther inuented to call vs Papists For we were you know before Luther began as they were before the Arrians began And neither they nor we then without a name What other thē was our name but the name of Christians In vnitie of the name were al together at that time And when afterward Arius and Luther began their partes what offended the old Christians I pray you to léese their old name And kéeping their old name what néede had the Arians to call them Homousians and Athanasians or Luther to call them Papistes was it of necessitie or of reproch And therefore on the other side the name Christians being preoccupated how could men talke of Arrius his faction or of Luthers factiō without some new names as Ariās Lutherās Therefore it was not of reproch but of necessitie in so much that your owne side also in theire talke in theire Edictes and in theire bookes specially one against another are constrained to vse those or other Names But we are not constrained nor do not call our selues Papistes but we call our selues still as before Christians or for more distinction perspicuitie Pacia Ep. 1. 2. ad Sy. Habetur in Bibliotheca edita Paris 1575 when we deale with you Catholike christiās For as S. Pacianus saith passing finely in his Epistle De Catholico Nomine to Sympronianus a Nouatian though he thē tooke him to be a Montanist Christianus mihi nomē est Catholicus vero cognomē Christian is my name but Catholike is my surname And therefore you may lōg desire the name of Christians before you get it The great count that you make of it is to our glory whose name it is But this is notable that howsoeuer you be ashamed of those names you confesse two other names graunting withall that they which choose to themselues such new names Ar. 87. are none of the Catholike Church to wit Gospellers and Protestants Specially where you say Ar. 65. As for the name of Protestantes came first of them that made protestation against the decree of Spires in Germanie Anno 1529. twelue yeres after Luther began and from that time hath bene attributed to professers of the Gospell Of whom soeuer it first came it is within the compasse of our rule And therfore you had good cause to adde and say Which name they do not so much delight in as you do in the name of Papists We delight euen so much in the name of Papists as in the inuention of your Patriarke Luther Howbeit we say not that a Catholike may to the Heretikes deny him selfe to be a Papist no otherwise
occasion 24. Priesthood and Sacrifice Mot. 21.38 Article 13. Heb. 7. In the 24. Demaund being of the Priesthood and Sacrifice I touch your Apostasie at the very roote For S. Paule saith The Priesthood being translated from Aaron and them of his order to Melchisedec or Christ and them of his order it is necessary that translation of the Law also be made That your Heresie of Caluinisme is not a méere Heresie that is a corruptioÌ„ of Christianitie in one or two pointes but a mutation of the whole new Law almost of Christ it commeth of this I say that you haue made a mutation of the new Priesthood And that you haue chauÌ„ged the new Priesthood or Priesthood of the New Testament I shew because you haue chaunged our Catholike Priesthood For this Priesthood wherin we serue came to vs from no other but from Christ and his Apostles The Priesthood that they delyuered our forefathers and we haue to this day kept the same vnchaunged To be perspicuous I come to particulares First the very Apostolike names Episcopus and Presbyter Note that is Bishop and priest we neuer went about to change them you haue labored to change them into these Superintendent and Elder Wherevpon it followeth that you haue chaunged the Apostolike order as it followeth the Apostles to haue chaunged the Aaronicall order because they chauÌ„ged the former names Pontifex Sacerdos for which we haue no English I touched this here afore in the .6 Dem. pag. 231. and you haue no where answered it but I finde where you haue holpen it For wheras the Fathers keeping those new names Isa 66. s 21. yet according to the Prophesie of Esay vsed euermore also the former names considering that the newe order no lesse then the old is a true species of that genus SacerdotiuÌ„ wheras we accordingly do in translating put the English word Priest not only for Presbyter Pur. 283. but also for Sacerdos you sir translating a passage of S. Cyprians do put the Priestes twise where he putteth Sacerdotes but where he putteth Presbyterum you shun the word Priest which is the very same and put your newe inuented word an Elder Secondly you helpe another argument of ours where you say I would desire none other place in all the scripture Ar. 29. Pur. 297. to ouerthrow the Popish Hierarchie which is the gretest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Eph. 4. He speaketh of Apostles Euangelistes Prophetes Pastors Teachers But where are Popish Byshops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors or Lectors Acolytes Ostiares By this you declare that you haue chauÌ„ged the order Hierarchie or Priesthood of the Primitiue church wherein as it is infinitly Eus li. 6. ca. 34. witnessed you cannot denie but the same degrées were which here you call Popish And doth not S. Paule him selfe in other places make expresse mention of Bishops Priestes Deacons And so you might aswell by your wise reason out of Ephe. 4. ouerthrow S. Paules Hierarchies Who also in the names of Deacons 1. Tim. 3. includeth subdeacons and the other inferiors as in the name of Priestes Tit. 1. he includeth likewise Deacons themselues And the like is common in the auncient Fathers who yet because Deacons or Ministers is a distinct order Sup. p. 251. do like better to call all vnder Priestes by the name of Leuites Pur. 383. because that was the generall terme in the old Law of all the varieties of them that were not Sacerdotes to call all to-together Clerum the Cleargie or in Clericos or in Clericali ministerio constitutos â—yp ep 66 or ad ordinatione clericaleÌ„ promotos Al which termes S. CypriaÌ„ hath in one Epistle with the names of Episcopus and Presbyter Sacerdos coÌ„mon to them both And it is but your ignorance to thinke that S. Paule should haue named them Eph. 4. considering that he speaketh there onely of the ministerie of the word only of preachers vt iam non circumferamur c. that we be not now caried about with euery wind of doctrine whereas these other are belonging to the ministerie of the Altar Which are two distinct offices as you may sée Act. 13. where some preachers had not orders as yet 1. Tim. 5. where some good Priestes do not labour in the word and doctrine Thirdly the Apostles Bishops Priestes were made by other Bishops and Priestes as also with vs it continueth to this day But yours be onely of Lay mens making as of Kings and other Ciuill Magistrates I passe ouer the difference of liuing Single Marrying as a thing extrinsical touched before in the .21 Dem. Pag. 250. Fourthly your selues confesse our orders to be good ynough in that hauing béen ordered by vs you séeke not to be reordered as Cranmer Parker Grindall Sandes Horne c. whereas we as you knowe account your Orders for no orders Ar. 50.51 To this you say You are highly deceiued if you thinke we esteeme your offices of Bishops Priests Deacons any better then the state of Lay men For we receiue none of theÌ„ to minister in our church except they forsweare your religion so their admission is a newe calling to the ministerie How true it is that you receiue none otherwise I passe that ouer But sir A nevv vvay to giue Orders we also make your ministers to abiure yet after that they be but lay men still And I would ask you if two Catholikes abiure with you one a lay man the other a Priest are they both Priests ipso facto O your diuinitie O your scripture As for the Sacraments of Baptisme Matrimonie we doe not iterate them after you though we supply the Ceremonies because a Bishop or a Priest is not the necessarie sole minister of them as he is of the Sacramentes of orders of our Lordes Body Which is a sounder cause then yours of reteining the forme of woordes and for as much as the Sacramentes take not their effect of the minister but of God For herevppon you allowe you say our Baptisme If that be ynough what néedeth Abiuring Yea belyke with you it is the Sacrament of our Lordes Body if a lay man or wooman also reteyne the wordes for as much as the Sacraments take their effect of God What is this but to deny the Priesthood and so to runne hedlong to Apostasie As that also where to defend Pilkinton not to be a mocke Bishop Pur. 343.428 Ar. 72. you bring no more but his excellent learning and diligent preaching Inueying against our Catholike Bishops as vnlearned or vnpreaching and therefore no Bishops Whereas in déede we that knew both sydes by experience can truly testifie that in Catholike Countries where your Desolation could not yet remoue the Orders of seculare and religious Preachers ther is more preaching to say nothing of the stuffe in so many Churches for so many in one yeare
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
yet to couer it as you hope Ar. 96. Pur. 423. For there were manye more Heresies at the firste preaching of the Gospell in and immediatelye after the Apostles time then at the laste restoring of the publike preaching thereof vnto the worlde in our dayes when the Gentiles continued constant and the Iewes without schisme in their errours This is iumpe as I saye in my 35. Demaund That you be not able to alleage anye excuse for your diuision into so many Sectes which the Arrians Donatistes and other olde Heresies might not as well alleage for excuse of their diuisions Aug. de agone Christi ca. 29. and so when S. Augustine noteth that as Donatus went about to diuide Christ euen so he him selfe is of his owne Donatistes diuided euery day into sundry pieces to tell him as you do vs that also in the Apostles time the professours of Christianitie were rent and torne into an hundred Sectes and Heresies You want but that whiche is soone had we know figures and prophetes of another olde Testament and miracles of healing the diseased of all sortes of raysing the dead and such other petite matters to make demonstration that Donatus then or Luther now is another Christ and then we must be forced to graunte that you are as the Apostles and they as you And yet for all that I thinke we should not be forced to graunt that you haue the trueth but rather it would folow per impossibile that the Apostles had not the truth But it is well that the Apostles were not the cause of those Sectes and Diuisions no more then we now their heires be cause of your Sectes and Diuisions Your owne Diuiding of Christ whiche is the Apostles and ours by Senioritie in right possession is the meritorious cause of them as S. Augustine told the Donatistes And the efficient cause is your denying of all Catholike Principles and holding of Onely Scripture and that but so much as you liste of your owne heades and to be interpreted by euery ones priuate fantasie which you call the Spirite Finally your Articles do fitte them all very well in so much that their Sectiones lightly be not made by going from any Article of yours but from some more Articles of ours as the Anabaptistes from baptizing of Infantes from lawfull swearing c. If the case had bene thus with the Apostles the world had neuer beléeued them Ar. 27. 40 They neuer afore now Next after this I note that the Protestantes were neuer in the world before our time Fulk saith With the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes we consent whollie in all pointes of Doctrine No not in one point at all vnles it be such a one as with vs also you consent in as I haue shewed cap. 8. and much lesse wholly in all pointes He saith further With Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gildas we consent though not wholly in all pointes of Doctrine yet in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Neither with them in any one pointe in maner aforesaid as I haue shewed cap. 9. Howbeit in this your owne saying you confesse my purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did muche more agrée with them in the cheefe and most substantiall Articles which you meane and yet were not of their Church could not be nor would not be If you say that you were then in those Heretikes Vigilantius and Iouinianus for I trow you will not say that you were in Aerius the Arrian nor in the Manichées nor Pelagians though they were your parteners in some pointes as we saw erewhile in the 38. Dem. that is a plaine confession that you were not in the Church of the Fathers Yet also that you were not in those Heretikes is plaine by this because they held no more of yours then the Fathers noted them for who would haue noted them also for denying prayer for the dead as they noted Aerius for it if they had denyed it as he did If you say that you were in that Church which went out of sight an 607. as you say here cap. 2. it is a chimera onely of your owne imagination you can not shewe any companie of Christians that departed from that Pope Bonifacius the thyrd and his adherents much lesse that they were Protestantes You come lower to Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ar. 27.30.33.34.75.77.95.97 Pur. 420.341.344.345 Ioannes de Gauduno al. de Gaudano you call him Bruno Andeganensis Wickleue Iohn Hus and Hierome of Praga with their Bohemians c. as Berengarius Apostolici Waldo with his French Waldenses and Pauperes de Lugduno and Albigenses the Grecian Image breakers the maried Canons somtime in England and Emperours that defended their maried Priestes Of these you say as you did of the Fathers We consent with them in the chiefe and most substantiall articles of faith sauing that in one place where you passe some of them ouer with silence least we should obiect that they held with you but in some one or two pointes Wal. tom 3. ca. 7.8.9 Melan. epi. ad Fred. Micon there you say But Wickleue I wene you will not denie but he was of our Church and Religion Against this ignoraunt wene of yours the Catholike may reade Thomas Waldensis that excellent writer our Countreyman the Protestant may reade Philip Melancthon who report sundrie articles of Wickleues which you your selfe will detest namely humaine merites as Pelagius helde them in so much that Waldensis doth exhort Catholikes to say at euery worde the grace of God as nowe we sée vsed in our language because Wickleue did teache his to haue alwayes in their mouthes merita propria their owne merites And Melancthon saieth Prorsus non intellexit nec tenuit fidei iustitiam Verely he did not vnderstande nor holde the iustification of faith He nameth fiue other pointes of like weight and besides them all Deprehendi in eo multa alia errata ex quibus iudicium de eius spiritu fieri potest Looking in Wicklefe I found in him many other errors whereby one may iudge of his spirite Of Hus the like is written by Luther him self Luther apud Roffen ar 30. Non recte faciunt qui me Hussitam vocant Non enim mecum ille sentit They do not well that call me an Hussite For he is not of my iudgement as there he exemplifieth in the Popes Supremacie c. And how say you to the seditious article as Melancthon calleth it of both Wickleue and Hus Con. Constan Sess 8. art 15.17 touching ciuill dominion that it is lost immediately if the King doe fall into mortall sinne Hauing shewed this in them whom you thought your selfe most sure of I néede not to goe particularly through the rest which otherwise and if it were not too long I myght easilye doe to your confusion For what a poore and fowle shifte is this of yours Whether Apostolici in Bernardes time were sclaundered
many thousand men haue in that new world receiued the faith of Christ as may be in this our old world So is the comparison at this present time But how much greater yet is the oddes if we looke backe to the times past and consider that in the Nations where now the Sectes are a few yeares agoe all were Catholikes they occupied all the Churches so many hundred yeares together as from the first conuersion of ech Nation Yea generally in all other Christian Nations also wheresoeuer whensoeuer euen from the Apostles time all were of our communion because all at ech time were of the Popes communion who for the time was and al the Popes from the first to the last of one communion no one of them separating himselfe from his predecessors communion as of purpose I shewed in the 28. Demaund This is the Communion of Saintes in déede not these scattered Sectes much lesse any one of them by it self alone as our English Protestantes c. Who also as I shewed in the 40. Dem. were neuer afore now therefore accordingly they professe to haue no communion with the Christians that liued before vs be now in Heauen in Purgatorie whereas with them also we haue communion of mutuall prayer helpe euen in the same manner as S. Augustine had whose communion is confessed to be the communion of all Saintes as this one place of his shall testifie for all where he sheweth that to be buried in the Martyrs Churche doth profite the deade in this that their friendes aliue remembring the place eisdem Sanctis illos Au. de cura pro mort ca. 4. vlt. tanquā patronis susceptos apud dominū adiuuandos orando cōmendent doe pray and commend them to the same Sainctes as clients to their patrones to be holpen with our Lord. This is the most glorious infinite Christian companie that our Countrey hath forsaken to follow a fewe miserable blind guides into the pitte of euerlasting ruine 48. By their fruites Motiue 39. In the next Demaund is noted according to S. Augustines writing against the Manichées De moribus Ecclesiae Catholicae the fruites of the Catholike Religion that Christ worketh in this foresaid communion both now euer in the good life euen of the common sorte of our seculare people and much more in the perfection of our Religious And contrariwise the waste of all perfection and of all vertue which the Protestantes Doctrine hath brought wheresoeuer it raigneth by setting men at libertie to doe what they liste with vaine securitie of Onely faith not the Catholike faith which onely is faith but of a new inuented faith or persuasion for euery one that he is predestinate That if euer any False prophetes mighte be knowen by their fruites Mat. 7. these may I néede not repete the rest that I say in this Demaūd to this effect Pur. 1. to 31 241.459 Ar. 94. whereof D. Allen also hath in his Preface said sufficiently Fulke in comparing with vs to the contrarie bragging at his felowes holines and rayling at some of our euill liues thinketh bylike that he can with wordes turne midday and midnight one into the other He nameth London as it is now and biddeth D. Allen if thou canst for thy guts name any citie in the world that is comparable vnto it Who would require vs to answere such beastly impudencie With like audacitie he rayleth at Rome as if it were hell it selfe I maruaile then how it commeth to passe that nothing more confirmeth our Countrymen in the Catholike faith nor alienateth them from the Protestāts then to goe and see Rome Whereof we haue innumerable experiences 2. Reg. 10. At one word we find there as the Quéene of Saba did find with Salamon whatsoeuer we heare by reading in S. Hierome c. Also by reuelation of our brethren whē we come to the place and sée with our eyes we are forced to say that halfe was not told vs. I hope the world shall know Rome to your confusion ere it be long by a booke that may with the grace of God be set forth to reporte the trueth As for London no true and godly English heart can but feare vnto it euen as to Sodome and Gomorre We néede to name vnto you no other citie but London it selfe when it was Catholike and let the Auncients be iudges betwene vs both They can tell you that if any good orders be there at this present they are lightly but the relikes of the Catholike time as it were feathers stickt downe by such as stole the géese So can they tell you of the whole realme and the like of all other realmes Pur. 238.236 You charge D. Allen that he appealeth to the yonger sort who haue not knowen c. But you charge him falsly He telleth good yong men that they must looke backe a great way to learne their duties of the blessed times past Which thāks be to God great numbers haue done and dayle doe and thereby returne and submit them selues to their mother the Catholike Church which if the elder sorte who know these thinges better then the yonger do not in like maner it is for no other cause but that they be more entangled with the world then the yonger are otherwise if the world were not on your side 2. Cor. 5. it is well knowen to them specially in whom God hath put the word of reconciliation that your ministers might in all places almost reade and preach to the bare walles 49 All enimies Moti 44. Article 4. The 49. Demaund noteth that it is our Church against which all enimies of Christ haue fought and which hath preuailed against them all As it is euident by this that our Church holdeth still all those truethes which Arrius Aerius or any other of hell gates did euer impugne and because it ioyneth friendship with no enimie but defieth them all alike whereas the Protestantes ioyne in opinion with many olde Heretikes and in friendship with all the miscreantes of this time because their endeuour is not against falshood but onely to ouerthrow our Church Against this Fulke hath nothing but rather with it expresly where he saith Ar. 11.15 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions and by the ayde of God obteined the victorie The true Church of Christ hath always stood stedfast when all Heretikes haue bene and shall be confounded 50 Sure to continue Motiue 47 After this I tell the Protestants that they were best to leaue their vaine kicking with Saul against the pricke Act. 9. because they can not preuayle as neither their prowders could The Fathers euen so tolde those prowder and mightier Heretikes in their time that the Church I say and namely the Church of Rome is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not ouercome And we sée that time hath iustified their saying And so will it iustifie our saying