well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy