gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
in b But that place you find not in this booke some other place but at this time we must treat of our vocation to answere him and his complices how and by what vertue we exercise our ministry c This I deny that you come to your calling in this sort for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastours nor continuance in that trueth which yet you say only neuer proue We are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is to say by the right succession of Bishops and Pastours and by the coÌ„tinuance of one Catholique faith deriued froÌ„ the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally d That trueth indeede hath alwaies coÌ„tinued and shall by the meanes of faithfull teachers but neither with you nor by meanes of your teachers is at all proued by there places Math. 5. Ephes 4. for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine manifestly shining like the light set on the table to giue light to all those of the house and not vnder the bushell to be shadowed with darkenes Saint Paul e Peruse the place you shal finde that though Paul reckon vp there those ministeries which should fully be sufficieÌ„t for the Church yet he once meÌ„tioneth not your gretest Prelacâ—es Howsoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be necessary and most necessary for the pompe of your Church that so the better she might answere her patterne Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christs Church shall may grow to her perfection yet neuer bee acquaâ—nted with them after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie I meane of the Apostles Prophets and EuaÌ„gelists he doeth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted being for the edification of the mistical body of Christ the which is the Catholique Church vntil saieth he that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him He taketh his similitude of many that come from diuerse waies and meete all in one way f Indeede hee plainely there teacheth thaâ— there shall bee alwaies to that ende teachers in he Church but hee saieth not that they shall so succeede one another either in person or place aâ— you would â—eene thereupon to builde For no such line of continuall locall or personall succession from his time to this day can be produced And thus hee meanes that the spiritual edification of the Church ordeined of Bishops Pastours and Doctours shall endure vntill that the Gospell be preached through all nations By the effect of the which Gospell both French Spanish English Greeke Persian Arabian Latines Barbares with many other nations which were too iediâ—â— to name haue met together hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith by the Apostles and their successours for euer As the some of God before he suffred did attaine arriue to the perfectioÌ„ of his age euen so his misticall body of the Church shall continue in this world vntill it be perfect in his members and that the number of the chosen be accomplished And euen as a materiall building caÌ„not be perfectly atchieued without g We see and heare of many great goodly buildings in the ende perfited in building whereof there haue beene many and sometimes long intermission continuance of workemen and masons euen so the spirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued without the succession of Biâ—â—ops and Pastours preaching or causing the word of God to be preached which is the very spiritual building the which hath beene euer common and visible in the Church according to the prophecie of Esay h Sap. â—1 say you wel hit the place is in Esay 62. Sap. 61 â—ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preâ—eruation of his Church hee did say as it were representing the state of Hierusalem I haue established and ordeyned i But few such haue beene in your time of succession these many yeares watchmen vpon he walles the which shall neuer holde their peace neither day â—or night These watchmen are those that haue annouÌ„ced to vs our salâ—ation They are the trumpets of Iesus Christ which neuer haue left their â—ounding in the true Church of God from the Apostles time vnto this â—resent day AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines discourse against heresies called and accounted by his frendes A notable discourse to that purpose made by Thomas Sparke Pastour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591 Chapter first CALVIN we esteeme and account of as of a rare singular minister of Christ his writings as they well deserue wee thinke reuerently of and you haue tried them to be of great force power to shake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him though you in your third word take it and therefore set it downe for graunted that we doe It seemeth you thinke scorne that hee should charge your Priesthoode not to bee of God and so to cal you to an accouÌ„t of your vocatioÌ„ Indeede I caÌ„not blame you that it grieueth you that that should be called into question seeing it is a thing you haue bragged on so long haue gained by at the hands of the blind ignoraÌ„t both al the credit wealth you haue especially seing also that what words soeuer you vse to countenance the matter yet you shall neuer be able to iustifie it Howbeit as though not onely you were able to answere Caluin to the full in this point but also as though there were either some great impiety or vanity at the least in his words you recite them twise admonishing your Reader that they are his wordes Be it that they be so what haue you saied either to argue the least folly in theÌ„ or to iustifie your vocation in such sort as therein he proueth you must or els it cannot be of God First you woulde proue Caluin in these wordes to offer you wrong in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth that vnlesse you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatioÌ„ it cannot be of God because the Ciuill law prescribeth that one should proue his right of possession before he demaunde it and that he should restore the spoile before the suit proceede But who seeth not that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iustifie his demauÌ„de that either you must shew that god is the authour of your Priesthoode or els confesse that you are not called of God then anie thing that you haue noted out of the Ciuil law can proue that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands Because you are an Archdeacon it should seeme that you would faine that men should thinke to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office that you haue some skill in the
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
that thus Amâ—rose Lactantius and Luke testified their good liking of them Wherefore though I be no body in coÌ„parison of those therefore hereby vnable to â—onour you as those did them yet being but as I â—m giue me leaue my good Lord as farre as the credite of my poore testimony will stretch to testifie that way my good will according to their example towards you And thus presuming of your fauourable acceptation of this my offer I cease from any further troubling you at this time beseeching as alwaies I pray and will for you the Lord of heauen and earth in these busie dangerous and sinnefull daies so inwardly to encourage and strengtheÌ„ your noble heart and the heart also of your right vertuous Ladie and duetifull wife as that you both and all yours may be so adorned decked and beautified with all necessarie and comfortable giftes and graces of knowledge faith zeale and sinceritie in Gods holie religion and with all true vertues both of bodie and minde readie alwaies to bee shewed in your life and conuersation that you may all goe on and finish your daies most constantly and comfortably in all true Honour and happines from generation to generatioÌ„ to gods glory the churches needfull example to your owne eternall saluation Amen Your Honours alwaies at commaundment most ready THOMAS SPARKE The preface to the Reader PLutarch a noble Philosopher a This preface for the most part of it might a protestant write against the popisâ— church heresies and prelates and a diligent Historician writeth in the life of Demetrius a king of Macedonie that wheÌ„ an olde womaÌ„ came to him beseeching him to heare her speake and he made aunswere that he had no leasure the woman looking vpon him saide to him againe with a loude voice why haue you no leasure 〈◊〉 rule as a king should Which wordes so pearced the kinges heart and so â—â—eatly preuailed in him that he forthwith gaue her audience and from â—â—at daie none came to him for any matter but gently and with all diâ—â—gence he did heare them and discusse their causes Boysterously were â—â—â—se wordes spoken of a subiect and not with that reuerence that was â—â—eete to be giuen to a king Notwithstanding as Cicero witnesseth in â—â—e second of his Tusculanes Tristis res est dolor sine dubio aspera â—mara inimica naturae ad patiendum tolerandumque difficilis â—orowe is a grieuous thing without doubt sharpe bitter and an enemy to â—ature harde to suffer and forbeare Sorowe as I suppose constrayned â—he seely woman to speake as shee did veras exprimere voces and â—o vtter the truth On the other side consider not onely the gentle naâ—ure of this noble Prince but also his great wisedome in considering â—othing to be more seemely for a gouernour then to heare mens causes â—ndifferently and to see all wronges redressed Nihil saieth the same Plutarch tam egregium tamque proprium Regis esse videtur quà m iusticiae opus Nothing is so excellent and so properly pertayning to him that is a magistrate as iustice I haue redde that the Tribunes which were officers chosen for the defence of the Commons of Rome had their gates or dores neuer shutte neither by day nor by night in token that thither might bee the recourse of all them that had neede of succour So ought euery gouernour whether hee bee spirituall or temporall to bee a succour and as it were a castle and a fortresse to them that bee vnder his tuition Dion Cassius in his â—ookes that he wrote de principe amongst other precepts willeth chiefâ—y and aboue all things that whosoeuer be the head of the people be a diligent worshipper and folower of God next that hee bee louing to his subiects if he will haue them to be faithfull to him and loue him as subiectes should their Prince For it is not of likelyhood saide Dion neither doth nature permit but that he that loueth should be loued wheÌ„ we see dogges to fawne and horses to neye to them of whom they be cherished Againe he would haue such rulers to call themselues shepherdes and feeders of men rather then otherwise So Homer calleth a king pastorem populi a shepherde a feeder of the people And Plato in his Dialogue called Minos writeth that Minos RadamaÌ„thus which gaue lawes to the men of Crete were the true shepherdes of men which was not spoken of so noble a Philosopher without a iust cause for nothing doth more nourish mainteine vpholde a common wealth then law which as Tullie in secundo de natura deorum sayeth est recti praeceptio prauique depulsio a commaunder of that which is good and honest an expulser of all that is nought and vnhonest Now as a shepherdes care is to see his sheepe fedde in wholsome pastures to be kept safe from wolues al other beastes that would wery destroy them if any in the flocke be infected with any outwarde scabbe or inwarde maladie to remedie it betime or if the contagion admit no helpe but is incureable to haue such a one away from the flocke that he hurt none of them that be whole Euen so must he that will be a shepheard of men study for the good ordering and quietnes of the multitude ouer whom he hath charge and that al enormities that might disturbe a common wealth whether it be spiritual or ciuill be expelled and that all faultes be redressed with due correction vsing lenitie and severity after as hope or dispaire of amendment shall appeare Neither hath the name of a shepheard lacked his preheminence at any time That good Abel ad cuius munera Deus respexit to whose gifts and sacrifice God had respect was a shepheard Abraham in whole seede God promised that all nations should be blessed was a shepheard so was Isaac his sonne and Iacob his nephewe his sonnes also Moyses that noble captaine and deliuerer of God his people was a shepheard in the lande of Madian Dauid of whom b Here is StepheÌ„ named for Paul Act. 13. S. Stephen sayd that God gaue this testimony Inueni Dauid filium lesse virum secundum cor meum qui faciet omnes voluntates meas I haue found Dauid the sonne of Iesse a man after mine owne heart and minde which shal doe all my will c There is no mention of Stephen Act. 13. This noble king Dauid was a shepheard These I suppose almightie God woulde haue to be ensamples to all them that be in authoriritie for as Paul sayth Quaecunque scripta sunt ad nostram eruditionem scripta sunt Al thinges that are written are written for our instruction that as they fedde that seely innocent cattell so should all Magistrates that professe his sons name learne to gouerne the people in the obedience of his doctrine that they might be innoceÌ„tes manibus puro corde nec iurantes in dolo proximo suo Innocents of their hands and
reason is there to the contrary but that according to the rules of decency the preface and the booke whereunto it is a preface shall be conformable one to the other And yet though this be the very methode and matter good Reader of all this his long tedious preface which I thus brieflie haue laide open before thee the poore silly man the authour thereof seemeth to haue conceiued such a liking of his owne doings therein especially towards the latter ende thereof that gloriously and triumphantly hee breaketh out into wonderful complaints amplifications and exclamations against vs. Alas poore man that hee was thought hee to meete with no reader but that would graunt him all these thinges at the first asking Or thought hee that hee had so cunningly and artificially knit those things together that no man could espy the childish losenes of them From his first generall farre set and yet vnnecessary discourse of the duety of all officers hee so suddenly falleth into the next of the properties of Christes sheepe that it was great maruaile that the man â—ooke no great harme by it But hauing recouered himselfe 〈◊〉 litie speaking belike before his wittes were well come to him â—ee neuer can hit after of any thing to the purpose For not onely all his matter and woordes besides a fewe naked assertions of his of the trueth of certaine points of his religion and falshoode of ours skipping in heere and there â—here is nothing but the circumstances of application altered one of vs might far more aptly and truely haue written against them But as those things sufficiently conuince the man and his preface of grosse folly and vanitie so if we consider but howe he hath wilfully sought to abuse his reader in cyting the ancient father Irenaeus and others to persuade his reader by his authoritie to obey their prelates and traditions we shall as plainely finde in the man palpable impiety For page second he cyteth his fourth booke and forty three chapter to proue vnto vs nowe that wee must obey their Church now speaking vnto vs by their prelates because then Irenaeus tolde the heretiques a thousand and foure hundred yeares agoe and more whom indeede the pastours of the Church that then was continued soundly in the purity of the Apostolique doctrine that they were to obey the pastours of the Church that had succession from the Apostles Which any maÌ„ may see bindeth not nor teacheth vs to do the like to theirs vnlesse they could proue theirs to be such as there Irenaeus speaketh of Likewise whatsoeuer else in this preface of his to like purpose he hath alleadged out of Irenaeus Augustine Chrysostome CypriaÌ„ Hierome or the scriptures theÌ„selues is abused for that which they spake of that pure true Church of Christ and her faithfull ministers that he would drawe his reader to think to be spoken euen of the Church of Rome as it is now and hath beene of late yeares and of her prelates which are in nothing almost like either the Church or ministers that they speake of But this is not all his fault in alleadging this testimonie of Irenaeus thus to confounde the prelates and Church with the true pastours of Christ and his pure Church a thousande fower hundreth yeares agoe whereunto theirs are no more like then darkenesse is to light but that also wilfully the easilier belike to beguyle the simple reader hee concealeth that that immemediatly followeth the former words Which is this Quisâ—câ—â— ostendimus cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secuÌ„dum placitum patris acceperunt that is which as we haue shewed with the succession of their Bishoppricke according to the will and pleasure of God haue receaued the certaine gifte of trueth and so hee hauing skipt ouer those wordes which hee thought as it should seeme in his conscience would and might be denied not to fit their prelats he goeth on with that that followed these wordes saying Reliquos vero qui absistunt à principal successione quocunquè loco colliguntur suspectos habere tanquam haereticos oportet which is in English but the rest which goe from the principall succession in what place soeuer they be gathered together wee ought to suspect as heretiques Wherein euidently it appeareth he left out the former words staÌ„ding in the author in the midst betwixt the former part of the sentence and the latter here alleadged by him to make the reader beleeue that Irenaeus minde was to teach men simply to obey such prelates without exception as haue ordinarie outward and locall succession downe from the Apostles and that that kinde of succession in place and office is the principall succession that he speaketh of which who so hath not ought by and by to bee suspected of heresy But indeede take al his words together and marke them especially those which craftily he had gelded the sentence of in his quoting of them and it is most cleare that Irenaeus here teacheth obedience onely to such Bishops as succeede the Apostles in the certaine gift of trueth that by principall succession he ment nothing else but succession to the Apostles in that gift of trueth and that therefore he would haue vs to suspect all those to be heretiques that lack succession vnto them in that howsoeuer and wheresoeuer they succeede them else Which is the very cause why according to this rule we think no better of their popish bishops priests then we do what successioÌ„ soeuer otherwise they bragge of for that sure we are that long ago they are gone from this principal succession in trueth This he knew euery one would perceiue if he had faithfully cyted Irenaeus wordes as they lye and therefore hee thought best to shew how he could followe the example of that olde fox Sathan who for his purpose in like maÌ„ner mangled the 91. Psalme Math. 4. It seemeth also that these words quocunque loco colliguÌ„tur in what place soeuer they be gathered together though he recite them in latine he would faine haue smothered for traÌ„slating the rest he omits these doubtles because without any exceptioÌ„ yea euen of Rome it selfe thereby Irenaeus would teach that they ought to be suspected to be heretiques that will not obey those pastours that succeed the Apostles in the gift of truth Which indeede the Bishops of Rome hauing had so little care to doe this great while if this rule of Irenaeus may bee followed they cannot possibly escape this suspition The credit therefore of theÌ„ waying more with the writer of this preface then his owne he thought it was better thus to leese his owne by thus shamefully abusing his reader in prouing this testimony after the popish manner then once to hazard the credit of his holy fathers the popes by right faithfull and honest dealing therewith Howbeit this kinde of dealing of his may giue iust occasion to all that are wise euer hereafter to looke better to the fingers of all such fellowes then vpon their bare
remedy but that we must needs grant all this to be true he taketh occasion to triumph and to frame a bitter inuectiue against our Religion and liues so concluding his wordy preface with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake vs our Religiō to ioine againe with thē in theirs All which because it is nothing but the vaine malitious wordes of a foolish aduersary without proofe or shadowe of proofe which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of I might very well let passe with this onely answere that whatsoeuer he hath here said braggingly either in the commendation of his Religion Church or to the disgrace of ours is vtterly false and that I haue plentifully proued it so to be in sundry places of this my answere Howbeit seing this is not only his brag but the brag also a nūber of times of Iohn de Albine in the booke following indeed is in effect the only thing by taking whereof granted most subtily they all their fellowes seeke to beguile their simple readers it shal not be amisse because here first we meete with it least otherwise the Reader should be too ready to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle to the preiudice of the truth somewhat to say to make both the vanity falshood hereof to appeare to euery one First therefore it is worthy the marking that the mā though as hee plainly sheweth hee had here a full purpose at least in wordes to giue as great countenaunce as he could to his cause that yet he seekes to giue it credit but by the testimonie of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time in the meane time omitting that which is to be preferd before all these namely the testimony of the vndoubted word of God reuealed set downe in the scriptures wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires which hath no countenance from thence and as the fashion of other of his companiōs in this case is For hereupō it is that there is nothing more cōmon in their discourses then to labour by all meanes they can the disgrace of the written word of god and to establish the credite of a word vnwritten which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practise of the Church of Rome To this ende they bestowe so much paines as they doe at least to make shewe of proofe that the scriptures are so darke and obscure so insufficiēt for the direction of the Church in all matters and of so vveake authority of themselues without the authority and testimonie of the Church to countenance them that without the foresaid vnwritten word no man could either fully or certainly be setled and established in the truth So that herein this is their drift that they indeed being without all sounde warrant out of the canonicall scriptures for those thinges which wee count erroneous in thē they yet may make their followers beleeue that they haue as good ground as need be for them in that they can proue thē by the tradition of the Church which they call the word of god vnwritten and which they hold to be not onely aequal vnto the other that is written but also far more full and certaine for the determining the trueth of all controuersies And therefore Soto contra Brentium Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechisme and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoplie are not ashamed to confesse reckening almost all the pointes in controuersie betwixt them and vs that they haue their ground and warrant from tradition not written in the scriptures And hereupon it is that there is nothing more common with any of them then when wee presse them with this that the opinions for the which we striue with them haue no warrāt in the scripture yea that the scriptures rightly vnderstoode are flatte against them therein to flye to tradition which is the cause that this fellowe him selfe was so busie before to abuse Irenaeus for the countenance of that onely foundation of their Religion For this cause we may doe say of them that iustly by their owne confessiō as Tertullian saide of the hereticks in his time they cannot stand if they be driuen once to determine al their controuersies by the scriptures de Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for vs Christian reader for all this lewde bragge of his we appeale to these scriptures of god and onely wee allowe of them as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to trye in all matters of Religion the pure golde from the counterfait crauing no further liking nor allowance in any thing then by them wee are able soundly to proue and confirme that which we say and teach And the ancient holy fathers and so the Christian regions in al ancient prescription of time which are the things that he here brags of as it appeares in all sound monuments of antiquity euer since these scriptures were written for the determining of controuersies in their times haue alwaies taken this course to cōfute confound all aduersaries to the truth As for their owne authority or the authority of any other before them no further credit they craue then as they are foūd to agree with these scriptures otherwise the more that haue couseted the lōger they held the worse This I haue made manifest by plētifull testimony of the ancient fathers thēselues cap. 3.5.23 And therfore whiles he sends vs thus to the fathers Christian regions consent prescription of time he sēds vs but about the bush for when we come to thē they will send vs backe againe to the scriptures But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else then at or by the canonicall scriptures in the iust iudgement of god they plainly bewray themselues to euery simple mā to haue but a bad cause that they so shun the light and refuse the most certaine most indifferent triall of it which questionles is by these scriptures whose neither authority nor indifferecy without blasphemy may once be called in question Indeed I read that whē they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures the Marcionites pretēded for the defence of their heresy their paraclet or cōforters visiōs instructiōs that likewise the Mōtanists did fly to their prophecy the Valētinians to their dreams of their Aeons the Manichees to their fundamētal Epistle the Iewes to their Talmud the Turks to their Alcaron belike lest these should be foūd vnlike these their predecessors they will thus fly from the vndoubted authority of god speaking in the scriptures to the vncertaine and variable authority of man Yet if this were true that he saith that they haue the auncient holy fathers the common consent of all Christian regions pre scriptiō of time of their side it were sōewhat some likelihood it were that things were with thē as he saith I must needs cōfesse
is the thing that Caluin telleth you you must shew or els you must confesse your calling is not of God seing it is but to an office of your owne boldnes deuised and taken in hand And yet this being a thing which to iustifie your calling it stood you vpon most in the best maner you could to haue proued yea without the profe wherof all that euer you haue saied or can say of neuer so ordinarie a comming thereunto is merelie vaine friuolous yet you saie you will not meddle with it here at this time but you put it of to another place not once finding time place in this your discourse to speake a word of it againe Wherein at the first entrance in the eies of the wise you haue giuen your Priesthood a greater wound then al that you haue saied concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereūto can euer heale vp againe For this thing being the most pertinent material thing that could be your drift and purpose in this discourse considered for you to haue laboured about as about the soule of your cause to giue al the rest life how could you perswade your selfe but that in thus shifting of this though so thrust vpon you by your owne citing of Caluins words but that euerie one would straight iudge that you did it not because you had no will to haue proued it but because you feared that your skil would not serue you substātially to doe it And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wisdōe thus to passe it ouer as though you could saie enough thereof if you list then by entring into it to lay open your weakenes to your frends in so great a matter at your first entrance into your booke Howsoeuer you haue thought it the safest waie in this place to say nothing hereof for sauing your credit to make shew as though you would say enough in some other in the mean time euē here the nature of your popish Priesthood considered I confidentlie aduouch that neither you nor all you togither can euer proue indeede that it is of God For the Scripture teacheth vs that Christ hath an euerlasting Priesthood and that he executed that office here and doth stil there where he is for his Church so perfectlie that he hath this prerogatiue that he needeth no successors to cōtinue his office as the Priests of Aaron had nor anie other either to offer any new or to iterate that sacrifice which he offred himselfe for the saluation of mā he hath offred one so perfect so perfectly once for al He. 7.23.24 10 10. c. which prerogatiues the massing Priesthoode robbeth him of first in that they will bee his successours in the office of Priesthoode and thē in that they take vpō thē to offer him again in sacrifice to his father for the sinnes as they say both of the quick dead most blasphemously make thēselues in their offering him againe to his father mediators betwixt him and his father praying him as it appeareth in there masse-book that he would fauourably looke vpō and receiue those hoasts which they there offer vnto him for the soules of such and such Ex missâ pro defunctis ex secretis Werefore I dare be bolde to say that so far of is it that their Priesthoode is of Gods ordinaunce that most certainly it is of Sathans owne deuising and is most iniurious to the death and passion of Christ and therefore Antichristian Howbeit seeing you haue left Caluins assertion that it is not of God standing without any refutation and so are contented vntil you better aduise your selfe what to say against it to let it stand still in the meane season to render vs account of your cōming vnto it vpon condition that wee will make ready our papers when you haue answered vs to answere you how we come by our Ministery I am content to accept of this your condition and so to heare first what you can say for the iustifying of your vocation and after when and where you cal for it to yeeld you an account of ours But then in the meane time I must put you in minde and pray the gentle reader to marke it that for any thing you haue saied yet Caluins assertion against your office of Priesthoode it selfe that it is not of God standeth in full force You write that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is say you by the right succession of Bishops pastours and by the cōtinuāce of one catholique faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies wtout the interruption of it vniuersally This you say indeede but what haue you either here or els where in this your notable discourse for so either you or your frends cal it brought vs to proue this you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. a place out of Esay with is there Cap. 62.6 though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61. but neither any of these nor al these togither do proue your saying to be tru For taking the places in your own sēce the things therby proued are only these first that the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies so shined that it hath giuē light at al times in one place or other to thē within the house that is that be wtin the true Catholick Church to such as be neare thereūto and within the sight thereof and that Christ wil haue continually euen vntill his second comming and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection his trueth continued in his Church by faythfull Pastours and Ministers and to this ende serueth also in your opinion your similitude taken from a materiall building which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done which yet caryeth with it a dissimilitude euen in the thing wherein you resemble it vnto the Church For we see by daily experience that in material buildings if they be great there are often tymes great and many interruptions and ceasings of the workemen and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected But bee it that these places proue these things and that your vnapt similitude hath no vnfitnes in it what is all this to the purpose doth it hereupon follow that you come to your offices of Priests Bishops as you haue saied Because Christ hath alwaies will to the ende preserue and cōtinue the light of his trueth by the faithful ministery of some in his church which is a thing which we alwaies haue constātly firmely beleeued to be true because he hath had hath and wil euer vnto the ende haue a holy catholicke Church against which the gates of hel neither hath at any time doeth nor euer shall vniuersally preuaile shall it hereupon follow that therefore your Priests Bishops are the mē whom Christ hath alwaies and yet doth vse to this ende or that amongst thē there hath alwaies beene the right succession in one Catholicke faith Their
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
forgate one thing that doeth hinder greatlie your commission You should haue shewed God that the commission which he gaue you was like to breede no lesse mischiefe amongst the Papists thē Moses did amōg the Aegyptians For I e And you know we haue iust cause so to thinke and say am sure if anie to trie you would take your oath that you would sweare that the Pope is as ill as Pharao and we as hard hearted as the Aegyptians Therefore why did yee not demande of him a rodde to conuert into a serpent and to passe drie foote ouer the redde Sea f Our vocation is ordinary the message we haue olde and ancient sufficiently confirmed by all the miracles cronicled in the Scriptures and therefore this was needelesse Why did yee not require at his hande that it might please him to authorize his worde preached by your ministers with signes miracles and tokens as he did when hee sent your fellowes the Apostles seeing that you are Prophets how commeth it to passe that you haue not foreseene that wee would not beleeue you for who is hee although he were a Deuill that could not saie as much But we haue one disauowe which God hath giuen to manie which doe report that they doe come from him which doeth greatlie ouerthrowe the authoritie of your commission g These many moe such like doe so fitly paint your Prelates therefore it is that we shun thē as we doe He doeth saie in the 14. of Hieremie the Prophets preach falsely in my name I haue not sent them I haue not commaunded them nor I haue not spoken vnto them but they prophecie vnto you false visiōs and naughty diuinations to deceaue your heartes And likewise in the 27. Chapter I haue not sent them saieth the Lord God they prophecie in my name falsely to the intēt I should forsake you and that aswell you as your prophets should perish Item in the 29. Let not your Prophets seduce you that are amongst you nor your southsaiers and doe not marke the dreames that yee dreame for they doe prophecie falsely vnto you in my name seeing that I haue not sent thē saieth the Lord. c. So that although it were true that God hath sent you as it is false we might with a iust cause pretend an excuse of ignorance and to saie with great assurance that that * Gen 20. Abimilech saied vnto God g That you cannot for you haue the Scriptures of the old and new Testament if you had grace to preserue you frō such blindnes as yee shew in refusing our doctrine which is so warranted as it is there where hee threatned that he would kill him because he kept Abrahams wife O Lord God saied he would you kill a poore simple nation Shall it be saied that we beleeue all those that faine to come in your name haue not you commāded vs by the Apostle * 1. Ioh. 1. h And therefore we are so bold as to try your popish spirit by the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures That we should not beleeue euery spirit and that the Angell of darknes doeth transforme himselfe into an Angell of light Haue not you commanded to bee writen that we should beware which way we take and that such a waie doeth seeme good the which notwithstanding doeth leade vnto damnation and perdition If anie saying that he is our Princes seruant i But we haue both and vnlesse wee can proue we haue beleeue vs not should come to demande a summe of monie in his masters name and that hee had neither his hand nor his seale to warrant his demaund would not wee send him awaie like a false merchant fearing that he would deceaue vs then with greater reason ought we to feare the committing of our faith the hope of our saluation into their hands whom we know not nor that cannot shew anie miracles k You were deceaued these words be not there to cōfirme their preaching as the Apostles did * k Mat. 28. Qui confirmabant sermonem sequentibus signis That is which did confirme their preaching with signes or miracles following l Because there is not like reasō and cause as thē whi◠doe not they say as he saied whose successours they professe to be the signes of my commission Apostleship haue beene accomplished among you with signes and miracles 2. Cor. 12. The XVII Chapter YOu proceede charging vs to haue begon reformation by force but as yet you haue not proued it Vpō the beginning thereof in these later daies or not long after wee graunt some stirres did arise in Germanie France and other places but therein it hath fallen out no otherwise with the renuing and reuiuing the Gospell of Christ then it fell out with the Apostles when they beganne first to preach it For we reade Act. 17.19 that then stirres and tumults there were vsually raysed vp by the enemies thereof to hinder the course thereof And as long as it is not to bee lookt for but that alwaies it will haue some enemies what else can be hoped for but when it springeth beginneth to florish there wil be some stirres and contentions betwixt the frendes and enemies thereof But as the Apostles when for these stirs sake they were charged to be seditious persons might truely cleare them selues in that not they nor the professours of the Gospell were at anie time the authours thereof but rather the enemies thereof so may wee in this same case also doe For either they haue begun of your selues who haue thought by force to stoppe the course of the Gospell or if any haue begon by others as some did in Germanie by the Anabaptistes our men haue beene the forwardest by their writings and otherwise to condemne their doings therein And yet though it should haue fallen out or it may bee proued that in some one place or other there haue beene since this late detection of Popish enormities some disorderly tumults and in the same some vnlawfull force vsed wherewith some indiscreete persons of our side may iustly bee charged as long as it is a thing which we neither like allow nor iustify in them what reason is there that that should be obiected as matter of sufficient disgrace to all the rest of vs and to our Religion also Is it impossible for such thinges to fall out sometimes amongst them that professe Gods trueth euen in well ordered common weales Then truely of al men in the world the men of your profession will bee proued to haue least acquaintance with Gods trueth For neuer were there more broiles hoate contentions and force more vsed to compasse your wils then haue beene amongst you euery seuerall order of Religious men euery abbey euery Cathedrall Church if the stories were searched ministers vnto vs infinite demonstration that there hath nothing beene more vsuall amongst you O the lamentable and most sauage cruell dealing that hath beene vsed
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
let these thinges passe and to proceede to the scanning and examining of that which you haue set downe in this Chapter you beginne with an arrogant and false bragge that all ancient doctours Greeke and Latin since the Apostles times and all the ChristiaÌ„s of the foure quarters of the world that were in those daies made their promises and vowes c. as you doe now You are wonderfull generall Master Albine and your words are very confident and swelling shal we thinke that you are a maÌ„ of that learning and reading that you speake all this vpon your owne knowledge why then hauing such a cloud of witnesses such an army royall alleage you so few of them nine or ten be the most whose names you haue brought vs in al this Chapter and these you haue brought forth vpon the stage dumbe or tongue-tied if we wil here them speake we must take the paines to attend vpon them by your direction at an other time and surely in other places then you haue pointed vs we must heare a good sort of these speake for you or else we shal neuer finde them willing to yeelde either you or your cause any one word good or bad As for vowes and promises which you make to God vnlesse thereby you meane onely such vowes and promises as both you and we make in our baptisme to renounce the Diuell and al his works c. for then you haue not so much as named vs one father Greeke or Latin nor yet any one Christian of any of the foure quarters of the world you speake of And indeede you haue amongst you such rash foolish vndiscreete and superstitious vowes and promises a number for the which you could not nor cannot truely alleadge any ancient and holy father or Christian indeede thereinto giue you any countenance Such bee you vow of single and chast life vniuersally amongst you tyed to holy orders your vowes and promises to God some of you alwaies some for a time to absteine with opinion of holines and merit from flesh and whitmeate your vowes of pilgrimage to coÌ„mit idolatry at this Saints shrine picture or at that and a number of like stampe of which kinde of vows promises if you meane I say first your glory in theÌ„ is your shame for these are but plaine wil worships condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss 2. the very bronds marks of such as according to S. Pauls prophesie in the later daies should depart froÌ„ the faith giue heede vnto spirits of errour and doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vowes were better neuer made theÌ„ made being made they are of the nature dangerous consequence that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashnes in making of them then rather quite to giue them ouer theÌ„ with such superstition and impiety to seeke to keepe them as is vsed breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you For it is plentifully proued both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth couÌ„cel of Toledo that oathes that caÌ„not be performed without sinne are vnlawfull not to binde And you cannot be ignorant that Gratian causa 22 quest 4 produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end and the namely out of Isidor there he hath noted set downe this for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be In malis promissis rescinde fidem in turpi voto muta decretuÌ„ quod incautè vouisti ne facias impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur that is in euill promisses performe theÌ„ not in a filthie vow change thy purpose the which rashly thou hast vowed doe not it is an vngodly promise which is fulfilled with sin And rather then men that haue vowed promised a single life through the force of inward coÌ„cupiscence should burne and fal either to fornicatioÌ„ adultery or any other vncleannes or filthines of the flesh with were as heaueÌ„ earth all the world knowes coÌ„moÌ„ fruits of your priestly vow of single life the ancieÌ„t Doctours that you brag of here so much would haue theÌ„ to marry and to repent of their rash vow as it is euident in Cyril in his third 16. bookes vpon Leuiticus in Cyprian li. 1. Epist 11. in Epiphanius himselfe coÌ„tra apostolicos l. 2. and in August de bono coniugali de sanctâ virginitate cap. 34. But by the vowes and promises that you speake of seeing you cite no fathers for any other I will take it that you meant onelie those that you vse to make to God in Baptisme Now theÌ„ yet therein vnderstand you striue without an aduersary For we in our baptisme doe as solemnly make those vowes and promises to God to renounce the Deuill the world the flesh wtall their fruits to beleeue in God and serue him all the daies of our life as euer any of you did or doe But you say further that al these holy Doctours ChristiaÌ„s you spake of at their baptisme did vse those very ceremonies that you doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings which you doe vse in your Catholique church which we call papisticall for the proofe of the trueth whereof you name vs certaine places out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen Chrysostome Augustine Basil and Arnobius what are these all the ancient doctours and Christians since the Apostles time that you speake of Though it were graunted you that these seuen in these places were for your ceremonies which you vse in baptisme yet this were farre from all that you spake of before Thus to beginne withall euery bodie may see that you are a far mightyer man in bragging theÌ„ you dare so mâ—â—h as to make shew you are in prouing all you say But to passe by this fault herein you haue committed a second fault worse then this first For whereas you alleadge these fathers here to couÌ„tenance your whole pompe of ceremonies now vsed by you in Baptisme there is not you know well enough or else you are not so cuÌ„ning in these places as you would haue men thinke you are the halfe of your ceremonies fashions so much as barely mentioned by them in these places Exorcisme abrenuntiation crossing thrise dipping and anointing are all that I can finde any of these in any of these places to haue mentioned but that they vsed the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and anointings that you now vse as you say I finde not Your Chrisme that you anoint withall must haue as you hold balsom in it and in them I finde onely mention of oyle and none of any balsom your formes of exorcising and adiuring set downe in your seruice bookes are not found in any of these places nay it is well enough knowen they are of younger yeares by a faire deale But what are these few ceremonies the names whereof and vse whereof in some sort they had
mercie and Christian compassion vnles there had beene some such great reason of their doings Well then because venter non habet aures the belly hath no eares and a minde desirous and greedy of gaine will neuer be satisfyed I wil not take vpon me any further to wrestle against this argument onely I warne you that euen in this respect you be not any longer found within the number of those walkers that Paul tolde the Philippians often of and then when hee wrote vnto them told them of them weeping which were enemies to the Crosse of Christ for they sought their owne and not that which was Iesus Christs cap. 1. For then he wil go on with you as he did with theÌ„ tell you that your end is damnatioÌ„ your belly is your God your glory your shame because you mind earthly things cap. 2. And in the meane time vntill by this warning you caÌ„ and will learne to take heede for this argument sake to giue ouer to plead any more for your praying for the deade to ease soules in purgatory amongst an 100. other questions that hang vndecided thereabout amongst you I pray you learne to answere this how it chanceth that since the light of the Gospel came amongst vs in these later daies to the detection and consumption of your glorious AntichristiaÌ„ kingdome we hauing heard before tydings of so many that apparitions of soules that are troubled there and would be eased are growen now to gayson and rare And if you would haue your doctrine thereof run currant as a plaine and resolute point I pray you also let vs vnderstand how it came to passe not long since that S. Thomas More and the Bishop of Rochester two deepe and profound learned men and martyrs also of your Church as your freÌ„ds accouÌ„t theÌ„ agreed no better thereabout For Sir Thomas More held there was no water in purgatory because Zachary calleth it a lake wherein there was no water the other held there was both water and fire because of the Psalme which saieth by water fire thou hast brought vs to a refreshing and the Bishop of Rochester held that their executioners there were the holy Angells and the other held that out of all doubt they were Deuils And vntil you haue learned to answere these our questions and to reconcile these your owne Doctours this shall be sufficieÌ„t to shew that you haue neither all the doctours Greeke and Latine nor all the Christians of the foure quarters of the world ful and whole of your side in these foure points as you bragged you had in the beginning of this chapter And the rather because touching this particuler and last point both the vanity and vntrueth thereof you your selues haue confessed in that some of you as AlphoÌ„sus by name haue writeÌ„ that the Greeke church could neuer yet be brought to be of your mind for purgatory nor the Armenians and that namely as he saieth because there is almost no mention thereof in the fathers especially that were Greekes aduersus haeres l. 8. 12. The XXXVIII Chapter ANd if I did not thinke a What are the ceremonies in baptisme auriculâ—r confession praying to Saints and for the dead either all or the most material things of your religion that we oppugne or was your prouision onely in a readines for those that it would be b You pretend feare of being too tedious caused you to particularize no more but lack of souÌ„d proofe for any thing that we withstand in you caused you both thus coÌ„fusedly sâ—amlingly to run thorow this and to passe ouer the rest too tedious for the Reader I would set forth the rest of our Catholique doctrine the confirmatioÌ„ of it by the testimony c If you had done this indeed it had bene somewhat but it being the onely thing that of all other you should haue done and thus to passe it ouer with a brag what you would haue don but for had I wist bewraieth the penury of your cause especially you not so much as once bragging that you would proue any of theÌ„ by the Scriptures of such a number of not only doctours but therewith all holy confessours martyrs which haue suffered for our religion and that haue taught vs both by word of mouth and by writing all that we doe vse at this day teaching vs to liue and die in it and for it d You ground your question vpon a supposall that you could haue beene as good as your brag which you neuer could haue beene and therfore at least vntill you had made better proofe of your cuÌ„ning that way you might haue spared this â—uestion I would haue you answere me vnto this Doe you thinke that they be in heauen or in hell I know well that meere scrupulosâ—y of conscience will make you not expresse plainely that that your workes doe teach and that you will remitte this question to the iudgement of God But this is not to the purpose for I doe not demauÌ„d of you any absolute answere as if you had beene in heauen or hell to see it but this to vtter in your conscieÌ„ce what you thinke of those that haue holden mainteined and confessed our faith whom you call Infidels and superstitious Papists are they condemned If you say yea then wherefore was the bloud of Christ shed on the e For all true beleeuers and for al such of yours that ere they died got hold of the foundation a right and yet for you to say as you doe is no better theÌ„ blasphemy for though al dying in the grosnes of popery were condemned yet it is well and a happy thing that Christ died Crosse it had beene better that he had neuer suffered if this were true If you say that God would be mercifull to theÌ„ because their errour proceeded of ignorance and so that he wil haue pitty of vs because of ours But I know that you will say that we are nowe vnexcusable because that wee doe refuse the trueth that you doe preach By the selfe same reason our ancesters caÌ„ alleage before God no good excuse for asmuch as they doe make no accouÌ„t of the receiuing of such ministers as you are that haue preached the like gospell that you doe announce vnto vs f These things follow not at al for so the foundation be held soundly euery errour that a manholdeth liuing or dying condeÌ„neth not S. Hierom all the Christians of his time are then condeÌ„ned because they would not receaue the Gospell of VigilaÌ„tius who did euen as you doe preach that we should not allowe the exposition of the Doctours nor honour the reliques of martyr S. Augustine is likewise condemned because he wrote and preached against the g AeriaÌ„s you mean I think Arrians who taught as you doe that it is an offence to praie for the dead And to be briefe if that which you doe preach ought to be called the gospell