Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
Note also that of the teachers spoken of to the Corinthians the Apostle saith themselues shal be saved 1 Cor. 3.15 albeit theyr vvork of affected eloquence do burne and vanish away as smoke Whereas contrarily of the teachers of erroneous doctrine he saith They haue not God neither serve the Lord Iesus but are accursed For proof whereof see the Scriptures here alleadged before 4. Finally because the Apostle writing els where to the same purpose and to the same Church of Corinth doth himself playnely declare that this is his meaning As namely in 1. Cor. 1.12.13.17.19.20.21 2 Cor. 2.17 4.2 11.3.4.5 6 For which cause it may well be thought that the Spirit of God in this place did in great wisdome and of purpose compare theyr entising speach and vayne eloquence to vvood hay and stubble which are combustible aÌ„d cannot abide the tryall of fier that whereas they did much glory in this course they might euen by this resemblance now see and consider the vanity thereof and how vnworthy it was to be suted with the foundation which is Iesus Christ As on the contrary he resembleth the teaching of the Gospell in simplicity and playne evidence of the Spirit to gold and silver which will abide the fier and to precious stones which are of great valew to teach them by this comparison that albeit such maner of teaching seemed base in outward shâ—â—â— and were of small account with men yet it is in deed precious such as will endure the tryall and is accepted with God as being the right handling of the word and sutable with the foundation Iesus Christ Thus much I thought to write here for the clearing of the true sence and meaning of this Scripture Which by reason of misunderstanding is perverted not onely by the Papists to mainteyne theyr feyned Purgatory but by many Protestants also partly to vphold such errors annd doctrines as they hold against the word of God partly to defend theyr estate notwithstanding that such errors and false doctrines be retayned among theÌ„ Now by this which hath ben said the Reader may see both how ignorantly this Scripture is misapplyed by Mr Iacob and his Scribe and that being disappoynted hereof they have not so much as the apperance of any one Scripture to alledge in defence of theyr Church-estate But it comes well to passe as * Beza in 1 Cor. 3.10 one sayth of Purgatory-fyer that theyr Church constitution is built of stubble wood and hay so as the flame of God being now kindled agayne there is no marvell that in our memory it is for the most part already set on fyer For Mr Iacobs aunswer in Pag. 192 As also for the exceptions he bringeth here of errors simply fundamentall c. of the Martyrs of the Church of Englands conuiction obstinacy c. For these I say because they are all borrowed from Mr Iacobs Replyes following whither himself referreth vs I have there purposely handled them and therefore will I not here stand vpon them but thither refer the Reader for them As namely for Mr Iacobs Reply in Pag. 192. to the aunswer therof in Pag. 203. c. For the exception of errors simply fundamentall c. to Pag. 22. 51. 114. 144-147 c. For that of the Martyrs to Pag. 8. 29. 40. 41. 44. 46. 54. 67. 79. 162. 182. For the Church off England theyr conviction obstinacy c. to Pag. 42. 53. 78. 103. 108. 126. 127. 130. 131. 132. 140. 161. 174. 175. 203. c. Finally for these and all such like to the whole Treatise following where Mr Iacob this mans Rabbi both speaketh himself and is aunswered agayne Yet before we proceed vnto it let vs see what the third note is which he would further have here to be observed D. B. His Preface to the Reader Section 4. 3. Thirdly I vvould desier the Reader to observe the vvresting and misaplying of certen places of scripture vvhich partly in this Treatise and also in other their vvritings they alleadge for their absolute and peremptory separation from the Churches of England VVhich I haue thought not amisse here to sett dovvne that thereby the Reader and themselues vppon better consideration off the ende and scope of the holy Ghost in these places may see hovv they vvrest and misapply them cleane contrary from the true and naturall sence thereof The scriptures vvhich they alleadge for theyr separation are these Then the sonnes of God saw the daughters of men Gen. 6.2 Yee shall keepe therefore all mine ordinances and all my iudgments and doe them that the land whither I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out therefore shall ye bee holy vnto mee for I the Lord am holy and I have separated you from other people that you should be mine Lev. 20.22.26 So the children of Israell which were come agayne out of captiuitie and all such as had separated themselves vnto them from the filthines of the Heathen of the land to seeke the Lord God of Israell did eate c. Ezra 6.21 Departe departe yee goe out from thence and touch no vncleane thinge goe out of the middest of her be ye cleane that beare the vessels of the Lord. Esa 52.11 Fly from the middest of Babell and departe out of the land of the Caldeans Ier. 50.8 And fly out of the middest of Babell and deliuer euery man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lorde Ier. 5â— 6.45 Come not yee to Gilgall neither goe ye vp to Bethauen Hos 4.15 Come to Bethell and transgresse aÌ„d to Gilgall and multiply transgression c. Seeke not Bethell nor enter into Gilgall and goe not to Beersheba Amos. 4.4.5 Saue your selues from this froward generation Act. 2.40 And when certen were hardned and disobeyed speaking euell of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the Discipels c. Act. 19.9 Therefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lorde and touch no vncleane thing and I will receive you 2 Cor. 6.17 And I heard another voice from heaven saying goe out of her my People that ye be not partakers in her sinnes and that ye receyve not of her plagues c Rev. 18.4 These are the very mayne grounds on vvhich theyr separation is builded vvhich being duly vveighed vvith the scope of the text you shall very easely finde that not one amongest them all vvill hold in proportion vvith this time nor beare the separation they gather from them First because either they concerne such times and states as the people that liued in them vvere professors of or subiect vnto open grosse Infidelitie either HeatheÌ„ or AntichristiaÌ„ Idolatry not in some particuler customes outvvard ordinances but in the vvhole body and povver of Heathen Antichristian religion such as could not possibly stand vvith true faith and religion at all VVhich can not be said of these times present standings vvithout open vntruth 2. Or els
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
hold be avayleable vnto you 2. That therefore the Proposition of your first and maine Argument is not generall but admittet limitation and so your greatest defence is of no weight as is shewed †before 3. That your answer to the Second Exception is of no force howsoever here and every where you refer vs to it Pag 5. For which also we refer the Reader to what is said in that place in defence of that Exception And for the allegation of 2 Cor. 6.14 vnto that which is said concerning it in defence of the First Reason Pag. 67. H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 4. Reason IN this your defence of your 4. Reason you renew your Sophistrie and that which is worse you will not be told of it Is it because of the goodnes of your Reason that I deny no Proposition Nay it is for the badnes of it because all is nought all deceitfull and sophisticall Therefore I must distinguish euen so still as I did before and my distinction is good cleerelie discouering all your fraude What say you against it First you say Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed aswell as the rest of their worship seruice Aswell Forsooth I trow not that is not as much Their inwarde impietie and false faith against Christ the onely all-sufficient Sauiour is farre more accursed and diuelish then their bare outward orders separated from the rest of their faith But whosoeuer ioyneth simply and indifferently either to Turkish ot Popish Assemblies doeth ioyne vvith their vvhole and vvorst abominations vvhich haue no communion or coherence vvith Christ in deed Neither can vve also if vve ioyne therein The case is not like vvhen vve reteyne and vse some of their outvvarde orders in our Assemblies And here you note that I graunt Some thinge may be ioyned vnto our Christian faith in England which would vtterly destroy it Most true And here I note your most vnchristian and false dealing vvith me in affirming othervvise of me As I have expressed in the beginning about the taking of my First maine Proposition there Which see further in pag. 6. Lastlie my reference to the ansvvere of your First Reason is a fit and full Refutation of you here Neither is your Defence any thing against it as there appeareth Also this your Reason includeth Maister Cranmer Ridley c. to be no true Christians neither as hath bene often alleadged FR. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 4 Reason SOphisticall distinctions all men know are the woonted refuges of bad causes That yours is such I shewed before Now as it was so you leave it still even idle and frivolous It was between the whole function and exercise of publik worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assēblies and between the outvvard calling to the Ministery and ceremonies among them The first thing I brought against it was this Who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature vvith the former Now this you passe by like a smooth Priest as if you saw it not And that which followeth after you say is the first of my answer Look againe and see if you speak truth and leave this dealing Yet what say you now to that which I asked next vvhether the one vvere not asvvell as the other false Antichristian and accursed Your answer is they are not asvvell that is not asmuch But is not this meer Sophistry Is not Antichrists forbidding of Meats and Mariage asvvell Antichristiā and accursed as his Masse Supremacy Iustificatiō by works c. Yet in the “ Mr Iacobs Replyes to the 7. Reason seventh Reason following you say they are not asmuch Doth not he that stealeth but one horse steale asvvell horseflesh as he that stealeth five of six though he steale not as much When you say in the sixt Reason †Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reasō The Samaritans accompted the Idols of the Heathen to be Gods asvvell as the God of Israel do you meane that they counted them as much Or if Mr Iacob be deemed a learned man asvvell as Mr Cartvvright shall we think it asmuch By your leave I deny it Asvvell properly taken respects the quality of a thing Asmuch the quantity Yet so you confound them as all one Thus traveling with a distinction you have brought forth confusion Pag. 95. 96. 97. Further where your words and myne were before of the rest of their vvorship and service now you change them into these their invvard impiety and false faith against Christ Belike you see your cause to be very bad when you will not keep eyther my words or your owne but chaunge them every foot as you do But now if after all this chopping and chaunging I graunt all this which you say what are you the nearer Be it as you say that the one of these is more accursed and divelish then the other as all sinnes are not equall but one more grievous then another yet evē this maketh against you and thus you give the cause For now you can not deny but they are both of them accursed and divelish though the one more the other lesse Can you then as you stand in that constitution which is accursed and divelish yet be reputed for true Christians and true Churches If the Papists for to justify their outward constitution should thus alledge That the Turks invvard impiety or vvhole publik vvorship vvere more accursed and divelish then that outvvard constitution of theirs would this any whit help them Nay should they not thus yeeld their owne case to be accursed and divelish though the other to be more Behold then how well you defend your Church and how cūningly you yeeld the cause Where in the next place I asked if God in his vvord hath given any cōmaundement more for the latter mentioned before then for the other Pag. 96. At this you are as mute as a fish you have not a word to speak for your self Now seing Gods word approveth neyther but condemneth both seing also both of them are of Antichrist that sonne of perdition is it not evidēt that they are of the same nature and that the one asvvell as the other is false Antichristian and accursed before God It skilleth not then for the question in hand whether of them be more or lesse They that have the least of Gods curse will fynd it heavy ynough howsoever you flatter your self and speak peace to others when there is no peace To the second point by which I shewed your distinction to be idle and frivolous you answer not a word neyther Vnles it be that you yeeld to it in those words where you confesse you retayne vse some of their outward orders in your Assemblyes For if you meane it of the particulars †Pag. 96. there mentioned then you yeeld vnto it except you had shewed by the word of God that having communion with Antichrist in
be here in the field of this world Mat. 13.19.24.37.38.41.43.52 compared with Gen. 28.17 1 Cor. 3.16.17 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Ephes 2.21.22 Mat. 8.12 16.18.19.28 21.43 22.12.13.14 25.1 c. Luk. 8.1 11.20 13.18 17.20 â—1 Ioh 1.49.51 Act. 1.3 1 Tim. 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.5 2. Tim. 2.20.21 3.5 And further if Christs meaning were that men should here still deare and partake with the knowen wicked and prophane notwithstanding that their estate then by this it would follow that there should neyther be vse of ExcoÌ„munication in the Church nor punishment of malefactors in the Common-wealth Which could not but be the destruction of both And is directlie contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles in other Scriptures As namelie in Mat. 18.17.18 and 26.52 Rom. 13.4 1 Cor. 5. chap. 1 Tim. 1.20 Finally this their doctrine aforsaid is against the expresse coÌ„maundement of God the heavenly order of Christ in his Church and the continuall practise of the Prophets Apostles and faithfull in all ages For which see these Scriptures Gen. 17.14 and 19 12-16 Lev. 18.29.30 and 20 22-26 Numb 16 23-26 Ezra 6.21 9.14 Esa 8.12.18 and .44.5 52.11 Ier. 15.19 Ezeh 22.26 zach 2.7 8.21 22.23 Mal. 3.16.17.18 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18 Act 2.40.41.47 and 5.28.29 and 17.4.7.34 and 19.9 Rom. 16.17 1 Cor. 1.26.27 and 5 4-7 2 Cor. 6.17 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 2 Ioh. vers 6.10 11. Iud. vers 3.21.22.23 Rev. 2. 3. chap. 14.9.12 17.14 18.4 20.4 5. That the people may tolerate ioine with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed Which doctrine is contrarie to these Scriptures 2 Cor. 10.4.5 Mat. 28.20 Act. 2.40 3.23 4.19 9.26 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 12.32 6. That the gifts of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the Ministery c Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the Scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Levit. 22.25 Ezech. 44.8.9 c Numb 1.51 3.10.38 16.40 18.2.3.4 Act. 1.20.26 13.2.3 14.23 7. That the Church may yeeld obedience vnto other Lawes Canons traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Covenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mat. 6.24 Iohn 10.4.5 Rev. 14.4 22.18.19 Heb. 3.1 c. 8. That the Church may read other mens words vpon a book and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esay 29.13.14 Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Exod. 30.9 with Psal 141.2 Rev. 5.8 8.3.4 Iud. vers 20. Ephes 4.7.8 6.18 1 Pet. 2.5 9. That it is lawfull to ioine with the Ministery of dumb and Idoll Priests and to receive the Sacraments at their handes Which doctrine is contrary to Mat. 15.14 7.15 24.24.25 Esa 56.10 Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16.5.9.24.26.39.40 c. 1 Tim. 3.2 6.5 2 Iohn vers 6.11 10. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to ceasse preaching and forsake his flock at the Commaundement of the Lord Bishops Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9 16. Esay 62.1.6.7 Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11.12.13 Act. 4.18.19.20 5.29 Amos 7.12.13.14.15 2 Tim. 4.2 11. That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receive in and to cast out by the Keyes of his Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17.18 Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12 Num. 5.2.3 12. That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false Prophetes in their Ministery Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 7.15 2 Iohn vers 10 11. 1 Cor. 10.18 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 18.4 Iohn 10.5 13. That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romish Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christs Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14.27 Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 5.3 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Iohn 3.35.36 Rev. 9.3 14.9.10.11 19.14.15.19 14. That there may be a prescript Leiturgy and set forme of service in the Church framed by man Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esa 29.13.14 Mat. 15.9 Mar. 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephes 4.7.8 Col. 2.23 15. That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Civill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull governour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25.26 Mar. 10.42.43 Luke 22.25.26 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 17.14.16.18 16. That men may giue the titles of Christ Iesus to these sonnes of men his mortall enemies to call them their Archbishops Lordbishops Fathers Lords c. Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Pet. 5.3.4 with 2.25 Mat. 23.8.9.10 Esa 42.8 and 48.11 Prov. 17.15 and 24.24 Esay 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministery by Iewish and Popish tythes Chrisomes offerings c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Heb. 7.12 1 Cor. 9.13.14 1 Thes 5.12.13 Pro. 27.26.27 Phil. 4.10.18 Rom. 15.27 Gal. 6.6 These are the points of false doctrine mentioned * before in the proof of this Reason Pag. 155. Which you have left altogeather vnanswered as also your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. And thus are you driven againe and againe whether you will or not to yeeld the cause That which you adde in the next place of your not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof is answered before in the second Exception and sixt and seaventh Reasons Where you say you are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Act. 13.14 and 16.3 and 21.23.24.26 and 3.1 you say nothing to any purpose For what though you be not in all respects like those Iewes Are you not therefore to be separated from So in deed you would conclude But then tell vs if Corah Dathan Abiram the Apostate Iewes vnder IeroboaÌ„ the corinthian infidels Papists c. might not alledge some particular exceptioÌ„ wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separation be made from these The Scripture teacheth otherwise Num. 16.25.26 2 Chron. 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Rev. 18.4 Secondlie consider the case here spoken of Act. 19.9 and compare it with your estate and practise and see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from you as was then from them The words are these When some were hardned and disobeyed speaking evill of that way before the multitude Paul departing from them separated the disciples Act.
19.9 Compare now your case with theirs and aunswer for your selves Are not you hardened against the truth Let your writings against it your imprisonning banishing and killing for it give evidence Do you not also disobey it Let your constitution and practise be witnesse And do you not speake evill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of your Ministers beare record your books also and yll speaches of your Prelates Iudges people c. Therefore by that Scripture you are to be separated from Wherevnto may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2. Save your selves from this froward generation Thirdly where you obiect That Paule did not separate from all the other Iewes as he did from these Act. 19. and shew it by Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 I answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to do For first the Iewes were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true way and order of God Rom. 9.4 Levit. 20.22.24.26 Luk. 16.8 c. Secondlie Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the world that they should first preach it to the Iewes Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 13.46 Thirdlie the Iewes ministery and ceremonies being the ordinances of God him self and given in writing by Moses the man of God were therefore now when they should cease to be buried with honor Act. 15.21 and 21.30.21.22.23.24.25 Heb. 8.5.13 and 9.1 c. These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to do as they did in those places meÌ„tioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which never yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stand in the “ Rev. 13.16.17 18.2 2 The. 2.3.4.8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministery and worship were never the ordinances of God but taken out of * Rev. 17.2.4 18.3 9.3 c. the whores cup of Babylon for which God never gave Commaundement to go vnto them but to depart from them as being daughters of the great Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 18.4 with 17.5 Adde herevnto that even from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid when they put from themselues the truth and would not receive it the Apostles departed and separated themselves yea and shook of the dust of their feet against them teaching others to do so likewise Act. 13.46.51 and 18.6 and 28.25.26.27 28. and 19.8.9 To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered before And hitherto of your generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid is proved to be vntrue Touching the CoÌ„clusion Now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of truth iudge whether we or you hold Paradoxes In that which you speak of the reformed Churches you are deceived if you think they allow your present estate and Church constitutioÌ„ Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie In the answer to Mr T.C. Mr A.H. c. as is declared at large in ‡ other treatises which yet remaine vnanswered Where you say we our selves heretofore have acknowledged and professed it viz your generall Assumption to be true you are againe deceived We have alway testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appointed to exile and to death besides many other iniuries and grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause We have in deed acknowledged and do acknowledge that you professe divers excellent truths but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed practized by law in England doth make you in that estate true Christians never any of vs that I know of did once acknowledge Therefore till you shew the contrarie I must needs think you do falselie burthen vs all and speciallie such of vs as you have mentioned here in particular To that of the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already Yet for more evidence of the truth I will annexe some particular speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs themselves both then and in former tymes Maister Bradford speaking of the dayes before Queen Marie said ‡ Act. monum In the conference vvith Archb. Heath The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreover * In his first speach vvith D. Harpsfild That the scripture knoweth not any difference between Bishops and Ministers which men call Priests And that the Scripture speaking of Bishops cannot be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Maister Hooper held Hooper on the eight coÌ„mandment That a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the Scripture in case of Religion as to drive a camell through the eye of a needle And againe he saith The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be now a dayes And againe What blindnesse saith he is there befell in the world that cannot see this palpable yll that our mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse tyme then our Bishops horses bee a brideling Iohn Bale an exile for the testimonie of Iesu writing vpon the Revelation affirmeth The Image of both churches vpon Rev. 13.1 17.3 That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beasts head Rev. 13. and 17. are none other then the proud glittering tytles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authority to make it seeme glorious to the world having within them conteined the great mystery of iniquitie What â—her els saith he is Pope Cardinal MetropolitaÌ„ Primate Archbishop Diocesan Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parson Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemy For offices they are not appoincted by the holy Ghost nor yet once meÌ„tioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and evident against you And writing vpon the 14. of the Revelation he hath these words To receive the beastes marke in their forheads and hands Ibid. vpon Rev. 14.9 is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles have made onely for their owne covetousnes and pompe and neither for the glory of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian common wealth And also to be sworne to the same to subscribe to it to give counsel or ayde to it to mainteine it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punish and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so