sundry respects to be warned before when wée shall depart out of this world and a thing which we couet and I see no reason why we may not for such respects craue it of the Lord. You would make men beleeue that we coniure Christ by his incarnation by his natiuitie baptisme fasting and temptation by his agony and bloudy sweat by his Crosse and passion c. When we pray to be deliuered by them hath not our Sauiour dotte these things for our deliuerance And did he not deliuer vs by them What blasphemie heresie or coniuration is there then in this praier as to say deliuer vs by thy precious death and passion You aske where we learned to pray for our forefathers offences I answer that wée reade that the Lord will visit the sinnes of the Fathers vpon the Children and therefore we desire the Lord not to remember the sinnes of the forefathers to bring punishmeÌ„t vpoÌ„ vs. It is a blinde collection wheÌ„ any gather herby that we pray for the dead that their sinnes may be forgiuen them These then bée the blasphemies and heresies which you Master Barrow doo accuse the booke of to shew that you did not lye and slander but how well you haue acquit your selfe let all those iudge which haue any sobrietie And now touching this that you did affirme the best part of the booke to be but as a péece of swines flesh and abomination to the Lord you goe about to defend your wicked spéech by the abuse which I told you before could be none answer for the things are holy in themselues although coniurers and Papists abuse them neuer so much Touching the Lords Praier we deale about it in the questioÌ„ of read praier For the articles of the faith you wold know what profe by Scripture we can make for that blasphemous Article that Christ descended into hell Also in your other booke page 76. these be your words Their forged patcherie commonly called the Apostles Creede or Symbole Athanasius Creede the Nycen Creede Let the world iudge what cause you haue to glory in your sufferings and whether ye be not liker Rabsaka who boasted also that God sent him against Ierusalem then any of the holy Martyrs of Christ Is there any Christian eare but will abhorre this beastly spéech when you terme the Articles of our faith a forged patchery And doo you not I say euen as a very Rabsaka most wickedly reproach all Churches both of old and in these dayes Athanasius Créed which is the Nycen Créed is drawne from the word It is the summe of the most glorious faith concerning the blessed Trinitie and some other Articles which all true Churches and Christians haue euer professed and doo professe And for the Apostles Créede if it were not in the time of the Apostles yet was it presently after that confession or prosession of the faith which euery one of yeres made which was admitted to receaue the holy baptisme It is euery part drawne expressely but of the sacred writings of the Prophets and Apostles And for that one article of Christs descending into hell it is not blasphemous nor yet hath in it any error vnlesse it be misunderstoote The Papists are very grosse in it and fabulous touching his descending to fetch out the souies of the pacriarches Others doo hold that our Sauiour in soule after his passion descended into hell though to no such purpose this is not blasphemie nor heresie The place of Scripture which seemeth to warrant that his soule descended into hell is in Psalme 16. Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell neither shalt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption Scheol doth signifie both hell and the graue and in this place say they which hold that his soule descended it must néedes be taken for hell because the soule goeth not into the graue Yet because Nephesh may be diuersely taken as it is vsed sundrie times in Moses for the dead bodie as also that it dooth signifie the vitall spirit and so it is no absurditie to say after a manner of speech that the life is shut vp in the graue so long as the body remaineth there hereupon some doo expounde these words he descended into hell to be no more but thus hee went downe into the graue And whereas the order of the articles seemeth to ouerthrowe this exposition because it is said he was dead buried and descended into hell they expound this clause he was buried he was inbaulmed as it is said when the woman powred the precious oyntment vpon him that she did it to burie him Matth. 26. Nicodemus brought Mirre and Aloes this dressing of the dead body say they was of the Iewes called buriall and the putting into the graue descending into hell Others doo take it that descending into hell is meant that he remained in the state of the dead Others that in his soule while he was vpon the Crosse he suffered the torments of hell as it is most certaine he did Now Master Barrow seeing the words be in the Scripture thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell and the matter resteth onely vpon the exposition what immodest and intemporate heat or rather furiouse outrage is this to crie out of a blasphemous article and to terme the articles of our faith our forged patcherie Also for singing of Psalmes I will note here vnto the reader your foule prophane speeches in page 180. thus you write Heere would not bee forgotten also the sweete Psalmodicall harmonie of the Vultures Crowes Gleads Owles Geese of the Leopards Beares Wolues Dogs Foxes Swine Goates pardon mee for thus the holy Ghost termeth and likeneth the prophane multitudes assembled in the false Church all these together with one accord simphonie and harmonie sing some pleasant Ballad or else vnto Dauids melodious harpe some Psalme in rime I say not rithme now or meeter well concinnate to the eare though neuer a whit to the sence purpose or true vse of the Psalme before the sermon to stir vp the spirit of their worthy priest or preachers who being rapt and rauished with this harmony goes to his geere informe aboue said where his mouth distilles and his lippes droppe such old parables such premeditat and well studied and chosen sentences as shall displease no partie vnles he be of too suspitious a nature Your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe doo shew themselues so vngodly and prophane vnto euery Christian minde yea vnto euery one which hath but a sparke of humane â—â—uility and modesty left in hun that I néede not to say much for albeit our Sauiour called the Scribes and Pharisies which were sworne enemies vnto the Gospell and sought by their counterfait holines to seduce others generations of vipers and serpents Herod that foxe and Saint Paule called the false Apostles dogs yet is it no excuse or colour for your prophane impiety against all degrees and sorts both of men and women which are no such enemies but loue and
that erreth Which is nothing els indeede but confusedly in stead of putting difference betwixt error and beresie to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in simplicitie and an hereticke In deed because S. Paule sayth That an hereticke is peruerted and sinneth condemned of himselfe Tit. 3. And that such cause offences and diuisions contrary to the wholesome doctrine which we haue learned Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnlesse they bee conuinced and obstinatly despise the iudgement of God and the iudgement of the Church conuincing them by the light of the word and seeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it selfe an heresie vnlesse it light into such a man as obstinatly will holde and teach it Or that euery error euen the least by obstinacie of man ioyned with it becommeth heresie Then you say thus in effect euery error is an heresie no error is an heresie This Master Barrow is your déepe skill which ye boast of that ye haue learned for if the man put the difference by his obstinacie it must needes be so Then let me aske ye where ye haue learned yâ— to deny the vnitie of the Godhead is not an heresie or yâ— trinitie of persons in the same or to deny that Christ is God or that he is man vnlesse the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obstinate Are not these and such like heresies in themselues although the men that erre in them be not conuinâ—â—â—â—â—t hold them ignorantly Agayne shew vs where ye haue â—â—â—rned that euery error euen to the least being in an hereticke becommeth an heresie Thus may the reader see how confusedly ye haue put that to distinguish errors which doth but distinguish betweene the men that doo erre In the next place where you say that the error must be duely conuinced vnto the conscience of the man that erreth before he can be so wilfully obstinate as doth separate him from the faith and from the communion of Christ ye speake some trueth but ye speake ye knowe not what For it ye could see it is so farre from cléering ye from presumptuous intrusion into Gods office that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye and your former words and somewhat which ye write elsewhere in this booke being laid with it becommeth a very snare for to hold ye Ye haue accused the Church of England condemned and cast her foorth for wilful obstinacie as quite separated from Christ now let vs see how duely ye haue conuinced out whole Church all the assemblies and all the particular members in the same and found them hereticks First remember your owne words in this place that ye doubt not neither euer thought but that the best Church which consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors and that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as I terme fundamentall c. Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worship in our people in our Ministrie and gouernment Ecclesiasticall albeit in the whole course of your writings your speaches be merueilous excessiue yet in the 180 181 182. pages of this your booke agaynst me ye plainly confesse them to bee such as right excellent Christians haue ignorantly erred and dyed in For speaking of those which suffered death for religion in our Church ye call them godly Martyrs saying that ye doubt not of their happie and blessed estate all their sinnes and these false offices and ministrie which they executed in their ignorance among the rest being forgiuen them These be your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe You acknowledge them to bee godly blessed Martyrs they erred you say in these things but of simplicitie through ignorance If those principall men were ignorant in these matters then is it no meruaile if all the rest in the land were ignorant in them which imbraced the Gospell Vpon this it followeth that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church vntill such time as she was duely conuinced of â—er errors and found obstinate And if she hath not been duely conuinced and found in such wilfull obstinacie as doth quite separate from the faith and from the communion of Christ then is she still or may bee the true Church hauing it may bee for ought that you knowe and there is no likelihood to the contrarie many thousands in her which are readie to shed their bloud for the holy Gospell of Christ And then how wicked and how accursed is your presumption in condemning her vtterly Nay say you but she is conuinced and all your assemblies and found so wilfully obstinate in maintayning her errors euen against her knowledge that she hath forfaited the couenant and is separated from the communion of Christ This is your bare accusation you may not cary away the matter so for then indeede ye may easily cleare your selues from wicked intrusion into Gods office but wee must examine 〈◊〉 ye graunt there must be a due conuincing first what it 〈…〉 be duly conuinced then when and by whome she hath been â—â— such sorte or so duly conuinced as ye charge her and yet found obstinate This is the rule that one brother offending is not to loose the dignitie and place of a Christian and to be reputed as an heathen vntill such time as he bee conuinced by the Church and found so obstinate that he doth despise her iudgement and authoritie This is the onely due conuincing and here is the onely power to east foâ—rth as heathen a man in some offence conuinced And shall not a Church haue as great priuiledge as a man Is it not more then absurd to say one man cannot be cast foorth as an heathen for obstinacie in some offence agaynst priuate admonitions but whole Churches may All the true Churches haue conuinced the Church of Rome and condemned her as obstinate not in some light offences in which true Christians may erre but as most blasphemous and Idolatrous against the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion teaching that no Christian man ought to ioyne with her But what Churches are they which haue conuinced the Church of England of such errors and found her so obstinate that they haue condemned her and willed all men to forsake her O M. Barrow you shall finde that all the godly Churches are so farre from this that contrariwise they acknowledge her for a sister Looke then againe vpon your horrible presumption and see who hath giuen you such power aboue and agaynst all Churches If ye minde obstinately to persist in your euill without warrant and euen agaynst this manifest worde of God being much better ye should fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes and seeke for pardon ye haue no way to shift or to colour your wickednes but this that men may bee conuinced of error by particular persons and that so
this booke agaynst me Master Greenwood sayth that Master Caluin would but diuide the soule and the bodie in ciuill causes but I would goe a note further Thus farre be your wordes How shall Master Caluine doo that is thus set vpon by such great diuines which haue so pursued him that he hath lost himselfe and they haue snared him in his owne wordes Alas poore soules I cannot but lament with pitie to see your blindenes for I knowe this is of meere ignorance that ye cannot vnderstand Master Caluine in a doctrine which yet is cleare by the Scriptures Ye say he inuented this politique distinction of the ciuill court and the court of conscience least he should keepe Princes back from the Gospell Then by your owne words it doth follow that if it be prooued that Princes haue power in such matters to make lawes ye do fouly abridge their sacred power by denying it And for that Master Greenwood saith I go a note further then M. Caluine it is his ignorance for let him reade well the fourth booke of his institutions and he shall finde hee holdeth this distinction not onely in ciuill causes but in ecclesiasticall canons And now to the matter I would I were able though in neuer so rude speech to lay it so open as that a childe might vnderstand I will doe the best I can and I will come vnto it by degrees Ye cannot see how there should be such a distinction of an externall action to respect men and not to binde the conscience before God Mark well and see There bee sundry sortes of cloath of sundry colours and there be sundry fashions of garments I am a minister of the Gospell I haue by mee a yelow gowne a gréene hat white hose a tawny coate I doo for some néede secretly where no man seeth me vse them my conscience is not polluted by them I sinne not But now I come with these garments into the publique assemblie I sinne grieuously What is the reason of this It is because the garments themselues the colours or fashions which were before God to the conscieuce of man indifferent are now altered and become not indifferent to the conscience before God In no wise For betwéene God and the conscience they remayne as they did But now the whole matter lyeth in this it is vncomely and offensiue before men Who cannot here see the distinction betweene the ciuill courte that is for the action before men and the court of conscience before God Will ye say because it is euill for a man to doo thus before men therefore it is euill to his conscience before God euen for the very dooing not respecting men Might I not alleadge a thousand things of this nature which I may doo and no sinne betwéene God and my conscience but the sinne commeth by the sight and view of men Nowe when the sight and view of men doth restraine me from dooing them openly the fréedome of my conscience in them is not taken away before God or my conscience is not bound by them before God but I am restrayned in the externall vse of them before men because they be not expedient they be lawfull but not comely We see how Saint Paul speaketh about this matter 1 Cor. 10 ver 23. 24. All things are lawfull for me but all things are not expedient all things are lawfull but all things doo not edifie This is meant onely of things indifferent for all which are in their owne nature euil be vnlawfull and all things simply good are expedient and doo edifie Then we sée by this there are things which are lawful vnto our conscience before God and in which our concsience retayneth still her fréedome before God euen when we are restrayned the outward vse before men This we may sée further in the same Chapter eate what is set before ye asking no question for conscience But if any say this was offered to Idoles eate not of it for conscience Conscience I say not thine but of that other When he sayth not thine doth hee not shew his conscieuce remayneth free before God euen when he is restrayned before men And when he sayth All things are lawfull but I will not be brought vnder the power of any thing 1. Cor. 6. vers 12. doth he not shew it is some bondage if a man haue not freedome to refrayne the vse of a thing lawfull This is one steppe towards our matter But what is this for making lawes either politique or ecclesiasticall to inioyne men to doo that which God hath left free or to restrayn the vse of the creatures which hee hath graunted libertie to vse This is your mayne reason Master Barrow I haue already shewed that he which shall enioyne or restrayne to lay it vpon the conscience before God committeth high sacriledge But the vse of things may be enioyned or restrayned in respect of men as shall bee profitable or vnprofitable comely or vncomely c. A good part of a kingdome doth consist of Cappers The people are giuen all to weare Hats and by this meanes those subiects doo fall into pouertie The Prince maketh a law that all his subiects shall at certaine times not weare Hats but Capps If the subiect shall now stand vp say to weare an Hat or a Cappe is frée before God and séeing God hath giuen mee fréedome of conscience to vse or not to vse no mortall creature hath power to binde my conscience Will not the Prince make answere thou foolish man I doo not binde thy conscience in the thing before God but I enioyne it as a thing expedient and profitable to my common wealth It is free for a man to eate any kinde of meate The Prince doth see it profitable that some kindes of meate should be spared and therfore doth make a law that at some times men shall abstayne from the same The Subiects shall make aunswere GOD hath giuen vs fréedome of conscience to eate no power can binde our conscience from it GOD hath made it lawfull and frée Will not the Prince make answere and say ye Annabaptists doo ye not knowe that there bee many things lawfull and frée to the conscience before God which yet are not expedient among men I doo not restrayne ye to take away the freedome of your conscience in it before God but it is profitable to my kingdome It is free for a man that hath grounds to sowe or to graze but if men be giuen wholly to grazing and corne waxe deare and the Prince maketh a law that whosoeuer occupieth such a quantitie of ground shall plow thus many acres doth he now binde the conscience or onely seeke the publike profite There he thousands of such like matters Master Barrow and therefore consider how foully ye doo abridge the power of Princes to the ouerthrowe of Common wealths in denying them authoritie to make permanent lawes in things indifferent But ye make one obiection more which is of some shewe and that
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry