and their dutie and of the churches duetye to them Rom. 13. Lastly the Gouernours wee speake of in their gouerment are placed as farre vnder the Pastors and Teachers as they are vnder the Apostles and Prophetes which if they dare say it of y ◠Magistrates they are them-selues become plaine Annabaptists and do cleane ouerthrow the most rightfull soueraigntie of Princes ouer all persons and causes as well Ciuill as Ecclesiasticall A fourth reason is seeing oure Sauiour Christ in setting downe the Ecclesiasticall Presbytery speaketh according to the Jewes for otherwise the Apostles could not haue vnderstood him when he sayde tell the congregation or Churche which was the title then giuen vnto the Ecclesiasticall Senate and his wordes of hauing as a Publican and Heathen doth manifestly prooue he ment to speak according to their custome It must needes be that hee did according to the places afore brought ordayne a Presbytery of Pastors Teachers and Elders like vnto theirs of Priestes Scribes or Teachers of the Law and their Elders which gouerned onely In y ◠fift place y ◠precept of S. James which willeth them to sende for the Elders of the Church when they be weak therby plainly declaring that y ◠Church ought not onely to haue a Pastor and a Doctor whose cheefe attendance must be on reading exhortation and doctrine But also many who ought alwayes to bee ready at the instant calling of diuers and many at once that none in y ◠necessary worke bee neglected it followeth thereby that beside them there ought to be such other elders as may admonish the vnruly comfort the weak minded patient towards all Lastly all those places which say Elders were ordayned Churche by Church that an accusation must not be taken against them vnder two witnesses and such like doe establish these for seeing the wordes are generall to both as haue bene prooued before and no circumstance doth restraine them nay the circumstances vphold y ◠general because in the first place Lukes purpose is to declare howe the Apostles broughte the Churches to a perfect and full order of Church-gouernment and in the other the Apostle had spoken immediately before of both sorts Wherfore vnlesse they will ouerthrowe all certayne sense of these places and that notable rule of interpretation that the wordes and sense of places are not to be restrained but vpon repugnance of places or playn circumstaunces of Text they must here vnderstande both sortes of Elders And thus much out of the Scriptures nowe out of the Fathers IGNATIVS AD TRVLL There is no Churche which can stande without her Eldershippe or Councell Tertull. Apoll. Cap. 39. If there bee anye that hath committed such a fault that hee bee put away from the partaking of the Praiers of the Church and from all holy affayres or matters there bee presidents certain of the most approued auncientes and Elders Theophilact on the place of Mat. interpreteth tell the Church tell the Gouernours thereof Ambrose 1. Timoth. 5. Complayneth that the Teachers and Ministers of the Word suffered this to weare out of the Church or rather of pride whilste they onely would seeme to doe somwhat Nowe all knowe that the Elders which they called Sacerdotes Priestes were not worne out of vse therefore hee may meane this and this sheweth what the Fathers meant And CIPRIAN confirmeth that as manifestlye that it remayned in his time where he sayth Lib. 4. Epi. 22 whē either examining whether al things agreed to them which should be in those who were prepared for the Ecclesiasticall function We gaue it to Optatus we with the Elders Doctors and readers ordain him Teacher of those which heare Which sheweth there were Elders for Gouernment which were not occupied in any publike diuine seruice distinguished not onelye from the Preachers but Readers Ierom also saith The Christian Church also hath her Eldership Ier. 2. lib. in Isa Which when he meneth it of such as the Jewes had it is plain hee meaneth those which we doe as may appeare by his wordes of the Jewes Elders Ad Galas quest decim They chose saith he of the wisest of their company for gouernors which shoulde aswell admonish those that had any corporall pollution to abstaine from the assemblies as to reprooue the breakers of the Sabboth A reply to the variable collections following against the Discipline HItherto we haue had whatsoeuer force he coulde make against the seuerall pointes of Church-gouernment handled before Now because he thoght the stenche of the former dung was not strong ynough to ouercome the sweete sauour which the Worde casteth vppon the Discipline hee hath tumbled together as hee thinketh a great many diuersities and contrarieties drawn from the writinges of those which seeke the Church-discipline whereby he woulde faine fasten vppon it that it is not to bee yeelded vnto because the Authors are not At any accorde or resolution amongst themselues nor yet with other learned men Also vppon hie olde song that these matters are in the liberty of the Church it is a very nice and a dangerous scrupulosity rather then to vse that aright which hath beene once abused that a man shoulde goe aboute to deuise and to laye oute new plat-formes in Church-matters in which of necessitie such difficulties will daylye arise that cannot by anye reache of mans wit bee forecast and will breede not only a continuall toil but also infinite daungerous innonations both in the Church and common-wealth Concerning which slaunderous dealing of his I will first generally speake of it and then make aunswere to his seuerall collections adding vnto euery one of his open contradictions inconueniences of their side not only drawn from the diuersitie of mens iudgement which in the best thinges are through humane infirmity at oddes but such as shew the cheefe defendors to bee at warre with them selues in the points which they mayntayn with the holy doctrin which they must needs confesse Now may it please the Reader in the first place to consider what iniutye this man doth not onelye to the Discipline but also to our holy Religion in this manner of dealing For by this reasoning of his it shall come to passe that the Religion when it was first preached by the Apostles because it was ioyned with contrarieties and strifes as of those of the Circumcision with the rest and sometimes with bitternesse and difference betweene the Ministers whilste one woulde haue one that had forsaken the worke go with them another woulde not sometimes tumultes and disorders following the same it might well haue beene refused and east away seeing the Professors were at variance contended and many inconueniences in the reason of man followed their preaching By this meanes the whole religion which is in truth maintained of vs and of our brethren whom now they call Lutherans as an vncertain and vngrounded religion because of contrariety between vs in the
e Church of France is ridiculous For thogh they say that Ministers Elders and Deacons are for Church discipline whereby discipline they mean y e order of y e Church generally yet in the gouernment of the Presbytery they ioyne onely the Elders with the Ministers and to the Deacons they giue nothing but the care for the poore and to giue aduise as the French Churches say is not onely graunted to Deacons but vnto all as â—uâ—re occasion shall serue Concerning the difference of widowes T. C. saith Where the conditions fall out which are set downe in 1. Tim. â— there they ought according to that rule to be established Wherin he agreeth with Daneus and the booke of Discipline doth not deny but that where there are such women and causes they maye and ought to bee so founde of the Church and are to serue the Church in such seruice as they shall put them to onelye he findeth no one peculier and proper seruice wherevnto they are tyed but are to bee imployed by the Deacons vnder whom they are contayned and in all this there is no difference worth the speaking of much lesse contradiction In the next y e question is only of a circumstance how long they shold continue wherein if Berna differ somewhat from vs what is that vnto the matter in hand what hurt to the substaunce of the cause The next obiection doth aunswere it selfe that as they vsed them then in some respects as the Deacon to Catechise and such like which they thought the straightes of the Church draue them vnto â—o otherwise for their office we do see they do in their confession acknowledge That the church must he gouerned with the policie which Christ hath ordayned that the offices of elders and Deacons are part of that policie Also y t it is a part of his Gospel is confirmed to be perpetuall to haue such a gouerment in their publike writing to y â— ende As fond is the next out of Daneus which declareth that although the Churches after the Apostles chose the Elders and Deacons to be perpetuall yet it also sayeth there is no such thing defined of in the Scriptures which proueth that it is a circumstaunce which may be altered according to the estate of the Church In the next he quoteth Bucer as repugnaunt to T. C. but nameth no place where we shall finde it Daneus doth not contrarie him but acknowledging it the order of God doth onely shew what was done in smal churches adioyned to the great and populous there beeing sufficient persons in the one which were not at the first in the other notwithstanding the Apostles ordayned it Church by Church Actes 14. And euery Church muste haue them to send for Jam. 5. and the causes of them which are to be assistaunt to the Pastor to administer the ecclesiastical censures to watch ouer the people and admonishe them are a like euery where Now if the Churches be too little the bodyes of seuerall congregations ought so to be ordred as they may haue all the members which Christ hath set for the perfection and beauty af his body vpon all the wals of Hierusalem there must be watch-men and vpon Euery habitation of mount Syon vppon her meetinges and Congregations there must be this presence of God as a cloude by day and a fire by night For looke what places they can bring for the perpetuity and for the right of euerye Church for a Pastour The same or lyke may be brought for the Elder Whereof it commeth that Ignatius sayde as he is alleadged before No Church can stande without her Eldership And Iustinus made his apologie wherein this Eldership is mentioned for all Churches Wherefore whatsoeuer Daneus graunt was done for a tyme till the Churches might conuenientlye bee brought to a conuenient stature neither beeing too high nor too short and to be beautifull bodyes neyther wanting a member nor hauing one too much that muste not preiudice the institution of Christ which Daneus confesseth When he sayth they must looke to the Church house by house and publikely also to the whole and to the sicke Of two Consistories in a city it may be he hath reade of but in one particular Church of two Ecclesiasticall Senates I will then beleeue it when he bringeth vs a more certaine direction then yet hee hath done to finde it and if they did seeing the inconueniences as he sayeth bring it to the right order what preiudise is that to the trueth In the next poynt of counsels there is no contrarietie betweene the admonition and the French Churches order For they say they may definitiuely define causes in a prouintiall Synode although I can not find those wordes by his quotation And the admonition saythe so except there be a generall counsell and they will haue it there For there is no reason if they will order it fitly at hoam to carry it to a generall counsell And I pray are these two so contrary They may ende it and they may ende it except they thinke it better to referre it to a generall counsel In passing from this difference to the next he setteth peremptorilie that it is manyfest that there is no certayne forme of electing Ecclesiasticall officers vsed by the Apostles but reason he sheweth none whereby it maye appeare So that if his Doctorship saye it we muste take it from him as vndoubtedly as if he had it by reuelation For confutation of which folly we may say thus much That seeing in the Ministers examination is to be had of knowledge of doctrine of ripe nesse to expound the Scriptures and in a worde of aptnes to teach it is manyfest that as the gouerning of this action belongeth to the Eldership and is to be done with publike prayers that besides the gouerning Elders there must be ministers who maye be able throughly to iudge and examine to conceiue publike prayer and to deliuer to the Church by doctrine exhortation whatsoeuer is expedient in this case Which thing is euident not onely by the perpetuall reason of it but also by the constant and vnchaungeable practise of the Apostles in the first of the Actes in the sixth of the Acts in the 14. in the 1. Tim. 3. of Tit. 1. Onely it is to be noted that it is not committed to one no not so much as to ordayne much lesse to elect but the ordination is by the Eldership And Timothy could not carry the matter away but had a charge for his owne part To keepe him-selfe pure and not to communicate with other mens sinnes whatsoeuer other Elders did in this case Now as this order is certayne and vnuariable both in the reason and practise of it so the circumstaunces whether it shall be by 6. or by 7. Ministers by a conference only or by a synode sauing where it may be the more the better is left to the disposition of the church Wherefore it is
woorke vvhich tendeth to no other end but that the truth being found we might al ioin togeather in godly peace an holy vnion to serue him ioifully together froÌ„ generation to generation The reasons which specially did cause this mater to be taken in hand are either in respect of the substaunce of seuerall points in question or of the time wherin they are brought in question For first considering that the question is not as the aunswerer would beare the world in haÌ„d as in publike sermons it is euery day vncharitably vpbraided about trifles things of no vvaight as of variable ceremonies matters of circumstances which yet are to be squared by the sacred Canons of holy Scripture but about matters of no small importance euen of the great and waighty cause of Christes kingdome by vvhat lavves and offices his heritage is to be gouerned protected that is of the whole Discipline of the Church of Christ whether it be to be ordered by the vncertayne and deceiueable waights of humane constitutions or by the infallible Oracles of Gods most holy testimonies And that the aunswerer doth very confidentlye challenge as thogh not only by vs but byal churches reformed in manye writinges verye well knowne he vvere not already aunsvvered that by the worde of God vve vvoulde prooue a certaine gouernement of the Church vnder the time of the Gospell and that this he doth very closlye and colourablie at his pleasure adding to and detracting from the question as in the treatise shall appeare and vvith smooth vvordes and artificial euasions though sometimes vvith more gaule then comelynes and more scoffing then substaunce labouring to cast a myst before the eyes of the Reader and to beare dovvn the cause with svvelling vvordes of vain ostentation And concerning the time seeing that novv by the meanes of the vnaduised stirre vvhich by the reuerende Fathers is made in this Church of England al the faythfull seruauntes of Christe Iesus are in some sort called to beare vvitnesse vnto the truth and that vvithout verye good grounde it vvere not meet that any reasonable thing shoulde be refused of such men as vve be not onely to satisfie the expectation of all men desirous to knovve the truth but also to discharge our dutie to our Lord and Master Iesus Christ and to her gracious maiesty and all her good subiectes vve coulde not keep the pen from paper but vvere as it were inforced to beare this necessary vvitnes to a truth not so much by the reason of man impugned and resisted as by manifest and plaine places of scripture to be approoued and confirmed and for the dayly profite of the Church most behoosefull of euery man to be rightly vnderstood and in euery Congregation vvith all reuerence and diligence to be practised and religiously obserued For what man indovved vvith the feare of God and a reuerent loue of his Prince continually beholding the diligent hand of the seditious papists to waxe stronger and stronger through the stopping of the mouths of the sincere ministers and so many I might say innumerable soules for whome Christe Iesus shed his moste precious bloude to remaine in miserable captiuity and bondage of blindnesse and ignoraunce the very chaine of darknesse and iniquity for lacke of teaching and instruction and these non-residents and blinde guides which in some sort make a pray of God his heritage to bee so cunningly vnder-propped and maintained and so many thinges of so euil nature in themselues so pernicious to the church of God so dangerous to the state of this commoÌ„ wealth so offensiue and burdenous to all people of any conscience and knowledge to be so mightily backed and defended what man I say hearing and seeing the daily and pitiful complaints of the poore people for lack of good pastors and of the reioycings of vvicked euill men in the trouble of the faithfull Ministers to the great dishonour of almighty God and contempt of many most wholsome Lawes by her most excellent Maiesty set foorth and established can be so carelesse and vndutifull as not to applye him-selfe in some sort or other that these great enormities may be detected and remooued Accept therfore gentle reader the godly labours which were employed in setting foorth this little Treatise thinke it not straunge that it commeth foorth so soone or so sodenly but take it as a stay an help vnto thee till some more larger discourse shalbe adueÌ„tured wherin the holy scripture is made the onely iudge of this coÌ„trouersy so much as coÌ„cerneth the reasons of the lavves of this land is nothing at al touched as wel because the purpose of this reply vvas to instruct the coÌ„science by the proper means thervnto ordayned of God as because the shortnes of time could not suffer any more the pen vvhich vvrote this is of an other profession vveigh vvell and examine the reasons here inserted vvith the iust and euen ballaunce of God his holy sanctuary and let thine eye be single in iudging and no doubt but thorovv God his grace though peraduenture the stile may be somevvhat harsh and euery point not so finely adorned with the flovvers of mans eloquence yet the plaine simple euidence of the truth euen in her nakednesse and proper beauty shal so shine and cast her bright beames into thy conscience that if thou reape not so much profite as vvere to be vvished at the least vvyse this cause may receiue more fauourable interpretation and be esteemed as a thing vvorthy of due consideration Thus hoping of the blessing of God tovvardes thee and of thy charitable receiuing of the labours vvhich were enterprised to do thee good I cease anye further to hold thine eyes from the vvorke it selfe moste humbly beseeching God euen the father of our Lord â—esus Christ to be mercifull vnto this land to giue vs speedy and vnfayned repentaunce to turne his plagues from vs to ouerturne and confound the diuilish and blouddy treacheries of all seditious popish and other traiterous vndermyners of the state to plant true and godly loue among vs and to set vp the kingdome of his sonne according to his vvorde to the prosperous continuance of the most honourable and peaceable estate of the Queenes highnes to the reioycing of all faithfull and true hearted subiectes and to the glorie of his moste holye name for euer Amen Faults escaped Page 32. line 12. for Nicodemia read Nicomedia pa. 43. lin 5. for would read should pa. 56. lin 6. for rotted read rotten pa. 80. l. 11. for from read after p. 91. l. 11. for by read of pa. 92. li. 1. after God read doth pa. 120. li. 7. for he read they pa. 105. li. 6. after vpon read vs. pa. 128 line 10. read exercise ceasing pa. 131. li. 20. for commit read commute pa. 133. li. 3. for railing read calling pa. 146. li. 1. for hast read his own heart pag. 157 li. 13. for trueth read fruite ⧠Of the certaine
is not to be shut out in the Deacons which lesse importeth their libertye and saluation much lesse are they to be debarred in their Pastors and Elders vppon whome as Peter sayth the flocke dependeth Where hee sayth the people chose without the Apostles it is shewed already howe his owne wordes checke him and the trueth is plainly to bee seene in the Texte that neyther the people without the Apostles directing them nor the Apostles without the people consenting vnto them made that Election As for shutting out of the Byshops and Church-gouernours it is meruaile why hee shoulde feare it vnlesse iealousy which is fearefull where no feare is hath blinded his eyes That of the Apostles doing without any expresse worde from Christes commaundement is aunswered before in that alleadged concerning the Saboth Cap. 1. and is further manifest by the example of the Apostle Paule who beeing not with the other Apostles yet followed that rule Acts 14. That he saith there is no certaine forme of their Election hee is refuted by his owne wordes following where he sheweth out of the Text their election to haue beene of this sort that vppon the instruction of the Apostles the people in presenting them necessarily therewithall gaue their consent as the Apostles did in accepting them to their ordination As for agreement of all Churches in all circumstances of this point he hath his aunswere before but that he willeth to be shewed what is ordinary and what is extraordinary His aunswere is that the Apostles instructed the people and they consented which is ordinary as appeareth in that it is kept in all Elections of the Church Actes 1. Actes 14. and 2. Cor. 9. 19. but that which was extraordinary was the presentation of the people the special cause whereof him selfe hath declared out of the text In the rest it is straunge that hee requireth reconciliation where there is no repugnaunce but all the places ioyne hande in hande together For y e first in y e election of the Apostle it lay in the liberty of y e church onely to choose some For the Lot beeing the voyce of God was to assigne which of them should bee the Apostle and this circumstance maketh strongly for the trueth which is mayntayned For if where God is to strike the principall stroke yet the peoples consent is to bee taken as farre as may bee howe muche more is the authoritye of the whole Church to be sought for where the Election is onelye to bee done by men as the Apostle speaketh Galat. 1. The obiection of the manner of the election Actes 6. is aunswered before As for the number of 7. who is so simple as not to knowe that the number is to be varied according to the spreade and greatnesse of the Churches where they are and the multitude of causes affayres to be dealt withall As for no imposition of handes in the first and 14. of the Actes it is too simple and scarse tollerable in a catechist seeing such thinges are to be gathered out of other places otherwise one may thinke there were no praiers in the celebrating of the Communion Acts 20. because there is no mention of it in that place which yet were very absurd considering that the order which S. Luke described in the Churche at Hierusalem prooueth that they continued in breaking of bread and praier And if such seely obiections need to bee aunswered as inforcing diuers formes of elections then also wee may proue diuersities of Communions some of the cup and bread together some of the cup alone some of breade alone by Act. 2. Act. 20. 1. Cor. 12. Wher he saith Titus only is willed to appoint priests belike the Jesuites translation was before him when he translated Presbyterous Priestes and that so dazeled his eyes that hee coulde not consider the wordes following that he shoulde do as hee had set him an order which was not to do it without the consent of y e church except Paul would lift vp Titus aboue himselfe Barnabas who chose Elders by voices And if the answerer had bene ignorant of y e vse of y e scripture which oftentimes giueth y ◠action to y e principal directer which yet belongeth to many more as Paule in one place saith Tim. receiued grace by the laying on of his hādes 2. Tim. 6. which in 1. Tim. 4. he declareth to haue beene done by y e laying on of y e handes of the Eldership yet his skil in Logick should haue shewed him y e deceit of this Sophism Titus appointed Elders therefore he appoynted thē without the consent of y e people Of this kind are al the reasons following As al reformed Churches iumpe not in al circumstaunces therefore they shut out the consent of the people In other Churches the Elders of euery congregation haue the chiefe directiō in the electione yet not without the consent of y e people therfore it is fitly according to their example ordered that the Church shoulde once for all gyue vp their interest into one mans handes for the continual election of many Churches The sentence of Maister Beza doth very fitly require an vpright conscience to set down what is expedient according to the circumstance of time and place Which if it had beene found in him at this time and in this matter he would not haue shut his eies against the manifest light of words going before which declare manyfestly that it is a perpetuall and vnchaungeable poynt in Church-elections which neither Church nor magistrate may alter that they be made with the consent of the people His wordes in that place are these Then therefore not in Churches buylded vp must all thinges be committed vnto the suffrages of the multitude neither yet are the Pastours to be chosen without the consent of the whole Church But all thinges are so to be moderated of the Elders and Christian Magistrates that neither they bring in tyrannie into the Church which surely should be done if they shoulde call any vnto publike function of their owne wil neglecting the consent of the multitude neither that the popular state of the Church degenerate into popular rule Neither are these wordes of Beza onely sufficient to shew his corruption but the title of the chap. where he taketh this obiection doth minister sufficient aunswere seeing it declareth that Beza in all that place speaketh not of the consent of the people which he made perpetuall in the chap. before but of the maner how he gaue their voyces which is but a circumstaunce And thus much both generally and particularly for the vnfolding of his vnfit and slender allegations Now followeth a confirmatition of the trueth it selfe which is It is substantiall vnchaungeable in churchelections that they be made by the body of euery Churche the Elders directing the people and them-selues to giue their free consent The reasons of which assertion are these First what soeuer are the wayes of the Apostles in ordinary
contayne And the same authour DE PRESCRIPT ADVERS HERET We may not giue our selfe the liberty to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will we haue the Apostles for Authours which themselues brought nothing of their owne will but the Discipline which they receiued of Christ they deliuered faythfully to the people Which sentences seeing they can not be vnderstoode of the circumstaunces must be taken of the Substantiall poyntes which wee haue declared So the same Authour speaking of the like matter EPISTOLA LIB 1. EPIST 8. It is adulterouse it is wicked it is sacriligious whatsoeuer is ordayned by humaine fury that the diuine disposition shoulde be violated To the lyke effect LIBERIVS the Romane Bishop requyreth of the Emperour To leaue the trueth as it is in this behalfe or else to make all newe THEODORET in the sixeteene Chapiter of the seconde booke of the Ecclesiastical history which their iudgment shall be moste manyfestly auouched in the particular parts of this discipline of God which followe And thus much for the first and moste generall point which giueth both light and strength vnto the rest Now because him selfe willeth the particuler plat to be layed and prooued in the particulers which hath long ago beene done in many bookes and namely in the booke of Ecclesiasticall Discipline which hath receiued no answere as yet as whatsoeuer on their side of any worthinesse hath seene the light hath beene aunswered it shal be very profitable both to aunswere him and to maintaine the trueth in those particulers wherein hee seeketh to vndermine the same and first of the generall property of the Offices and then of the Offices themselues Of Election with consent of the people COncerning Election the wordes of this answerer be these Pag. 83. I doe thinke verily that in no Church the whole number of the people are permitted to haue a free Election of their Pastor c. Pag. 88. Also her Maiestie being the head member of this church whether she shall be alowed a voice by her highnes proctor among the people of one parish alone or in al parishes in the realm in chosing their minister what voice whether a negatiue coūtermāding al others or no or whether her highnes shal haue no suffrage therein at all Both which if they be not to the derogation of her highnesse prerogatiue royall let indifferent and wise men iudge And a little before in the same page I will only put this great canonist in minde of the 13. chap. of the counsell of Laodicea which doth forbid these elections by the multitude or people which as Origin sayth is pricked forwarde or caried away with clamors fauour or rewarde And to the same effect page 97. Item page 99. he obiecteth thus So that by this reckoning men women and children for all the faithfull bee interested shall haue voyces in election of their Ministers If any dissent all must be dashed if we followe that rule Againe page 100. For his flocke is but an handfull in comparison of hypocrites and many are called but few are chosen neither are al true beleeuers always indowed with such measure of wisedome and discretion as that they are able to sounde the aptnesse of a man in learning for the ministery nor yet haue all so profited in true mortification as that they can weane them-selues from those disordered affections which cleaue fast to euery one of vs either more or lesse so long as we remaine in this world and therefore in such cases the mo that do deal in any actiō the more disorderly troublesome for the most part it falleth out to be To the seconde I say it contayneth a promise of such quietnesse and peaceable issues of this populer election as if you turne ouer ecclesiasticall hystories neuer or seldome hath happened but the clean contrary And a little after Now it had beene very requisite that our Authour for the appointing of these democratical elections the better vnto vs should with proofe out of scripture for euery particuler haue shewed whether Women or children of some reasonable discretion shoulde haue voyces in the election of their Minister whether he should be chosen by all by the greater part or by the better part Whether the wiues voyce shoulde bee accounted seuerall or but one with her husbande or whether shee mght discent from her husband or the father from the sonne Whether the Patron not dwelling in the Parish shall haue a voyce or dwelling there but a single voyce Whether the greater number of voyces shall bee accounted in respect of all the Electors or onely in respect of him which is to bee chosen hauing more voyces then anye other hathe Whether all absent shall bee accounted to discent or to assent Whether sicke men or other necessarily imployde that would come and cannot maye sende the Proctor beeing no Paryshioner or compromit their voyce to a Parishioner Item Page 94. Discoursing largely about the places of Scripture alleadged to this purpose He sayth that course of election mentioned in the Actes was not vndertaken for satisfying anye expresse commaundement by Christ but vpon an especiall occasion of the mutiny of the Greeks against the Hebrewes Againe in that page 94. that of the Actes speaketh of Deacons onely and is not read elsewhere in all poynts to haue been obserued either in chosing of an Apostle Act. 1. of Ministers Acts. 2. or of Bish Titus 1. There also the whole multitude made choise without the Apostles who mēt therby to auoid al suspicion of corrupt dealing Which two circumstaunces no man will I hope require in the chosing eyther of a Bishop or a Minister especially that the Bishop and other of the Cleargie shall bee debarred from any stroke in that action seeing therein there cannot be the lyke cause of suspicion Also the Apostle calleth them togeather and prescribed vnto them what they shoulde doe in that poynt of externall policie and that according to the present occasion offered without any prescript worde but onely by the instinct of Gods spirite Further that the Apostles set out the qualitie of the men to be chosen but tied them to no certayne forme of election to be obserued neither doe we reade what forme of election they then vsed Againe that the Disciples were to looke out and chose such as they thought fitte to be trusted with the Church-stocke but the Apostles reserued to them-selues the appoynting of them to their office if they should be founde to be such as were described Moreouer that the Deacons were appoynted for the further ease of the Apostles in some part of their function Lastly that the disciples presented them to the Apostles censures who by imposition of handes did as it were consecrate and authorize them to the function of Deaconship Now if by this act our authour mind so hard to curbe vp al churches as that he will accuse thē to giue a counterbuff to the holy ghost which in their ordinations
doe not agree herewith in all circumstaunces or that he will tell vs that something extraordinary was here in this action not to bee followed then must hee shewe by direct Scripture what was ordinary and what was extraordinary and must reconcile other places of Scripture concerning like action which doe not agree in all poyntes with this In the first of the Actes two were presented one is chosen by lot and no imposition of handes heere seuen are chosen the manner not set downe by the multitude and being presented to the Apostles they all appoynt them and lay their handes on them In the 14. of Actes Paule and Barnabas are sayde Chirotonesasthai autois presbuterois and to haue fasted but no mention is made of imposion of handes heere all the Apostles did appoynt thē Hous katastesomen In the first to Titus he onely is willed to appoint priestes Hina catasteses presbuterous according as Paule prescribed vnto him Nay let him shewe vnto me any two refourmed Churches of diuers nations iumpe in all circumstaunces heereaboutes or anye one of them which permitteth this action without intermedling of the cheefe Pastours vnto all the Disciples or multitude of beleeuers in the sayde Church which yet haue an interest in hauing a good Minister but as I take it the cheefe swaye and moderating of such actions are in all other refourmed Churches in suche men to whome this trust is especially recommended And hath not likewise for auoyding of sundry inconueniences the whole Churche and Realme of Englande by Parliament whereunto euery man in the eye of the law is saide to haue consented reposed this trust in a fewe chosen men of ecclesiastical functiō Euen M. Beza him selfe concerning the place of the Actes doth say There is no cause why hereof anye man shoulde prescribe anye speciall rule but if the conscience be vpright it will be easie to set downe what is expedient according to the circumstaunces of tyme and places The reply vnto the former words Although the aunswerer in this large and tediouse discourse hath brought no new matter in substance which hath not alreadie beene sufficiently refelled so as no new encounter by publike writing as a supply hath beene made against the same yet shall it not be without fruite to the reader First to note out his tumultuous and insincere dealing his contrarietie with him selfe his agreement with the Papistes and then hauing particulerly layd◠open the nakednesse of his seuerall obiections briefly as before to set downe the plaine simple trueth out of the Scripture His tumultuous and insincere dealing appeareth in that pretending to haue greatlye sifted the wrytinges of this controuersie and to haue exact knowledge of the orders of reformed Churches in this behalfe hee is not ashamed in stead of incountringe with the truth to frame him selfe an vnknowne aduersary that is in steed of ouerthrowing the consent of people in Church-elections to make warre against a meere populer Election not gouerned with the fore-direction of the Elders which hath no ground in the scriptures and was neuer maintained as him selfe confesseth but by Anabaptistes and in steede of manly buckling with the substantiall pointes of Church-election with the foreleading of the Presbytery with the due consent of the people cowardly to betake himself vnto the changeable circumstances of the same as who should present the Elders or the people howe the people shoulde signify their consent by lifting vp their handes or otherwise by themselues or by proctors and diuers such other Which in the particuler answere following shall be declared howe according to the word of God they may vpon diuers circumstances be diuersly carried His contrariety to him felfe is apparant by these three partie-coloured assertions First that the people did chose without the Apostles Secondly they were to choose but the Apostles reserued to themselues the appointing of thē to their office if they shold be found to be such as were described Thirdly that the people presented them to the Apostles censures For that hee sayth they chose without the Apostles is directly contrary to that he sayth they presented them to the Apostles Censures so that their Election was to be disanulled and made none vnlesse by the examination of the Apostles they were founde aunswerable to their description His agreement with the papists and namely with the Romish Remists Testament doth notably appeare in that they appoynting as he doth the fift verse of the 1. of Titus to the consent of the people in the Election of their Minister they doe more breefly but as fully and plainly and with more curtesy to the trueth set downe both his assertions reasons and auncient Testimonies in these fewe words following And here it seemeth that he did not only consecrate them whom the people had elected before but him selfe also made choyse of the persons no mention being heere made of any other election populer which though it vvere long vsed in the primitiue Church yet for diuers causes and specially for continuall tumults partialities and disorders which Saint Augustine much complaineth of in his time was iustly taken away and other better meanes of their designement appointed See concil Laodic cap. 12. 13. So much the Papists Again how he iumpeth with the spirite of these Jesuites sauing that still they yeelde more to the trueth then he in saying That the Apostles shewed the people what to do without any prescript worde but onely by the instinct of Gods spirite may appeare by their words which they vse vpon the like occasion of Peter in their annotation on the 15. verse of the 1. Chapter of the Actes Which Peter saie they did not vpon cōmaundement of Christe written but by suggestion of God his spirit and by vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the old Testamēt to that purpose So far the papists And thus much generallye of his discourse Now of his particuler obiections the first is that he thincketh in no Church the whole number of people to haue free election of their Pastor If by free election he meane the due consent of the people either he speaketh against his knowledge or he knoweth not that he pretendeth seeing their confessions other their writinges and practize do in the knowledge of all those which know any thing in this matter euidently conuince him as may appeare by the quotations in the margent If he meane that the people should beare the whole swaye without the gouernment and direction of the Elders hee misseth the marke whereat hee aymeth Concerning the Queenes Maiesties prerogatiue royall which he would gladly oppone against the cōsent of the people in Church-elections First he could not be ignorant but that all acknowlege that the Christian magistrat as a principal member of y e congregatiō where he is ought to haue an interest in y e election answerable to his place aswel for aduise as consent Secondly the supreme magistrate according to the high authority which God hath committed vnto him ouer all
Church-gouernement that is thus to be followed that which they did ordinarily vnchangeably is ordinarily vnchangeably to be done that which they did vpon circumstances when those circumstances fall out as appeareth by these places 1. cor 4. 17. Which shall put you in remēbrance of my wayes in Christ as I teach euery where in euery Church And 1. Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren that you remember me in all thinges hold fast the ordināces as I deliuered thē vnto you And Phi. 4. 9 Which you haue learned receiued heard seene in me those things do the God of peace be with you 2. Tim. 3. 10. But thou hast step by step attained vnto or fully known my doctrine course purpose faith long-suffering loue patience c. Tit. 1. 5. Appoint Elders as I haue set thee an order 1. Tim. 3. 17. These thinges haue I written that thou maist know how to behaue thy selfe in the howse of God Now that these were the vnch hangeable waies of the Apostles in elections is cleare by the examples which haue been touched before For in the 1. of the Actes the Apostles by Peter directing the action in the sixt by him or some other for they could not al direct speak at once what soeuer were the variable circumstaunces they kept this inuiolable that they people woulde giue their consent in the election And in the 14 chap. such circumstaunces ceasing they obserued this thing inuiolable Katapolin Church by Church Secondly If it were not ynough for a temporary charge to haue praise in the Gospell thorowe all the Churches but as the Apostle sayth such a one was also chosen by the consent of the Churches to be a fellow with him-selfe in carying the liberality of the Churches then much lesse can it be ynough in a perpetuall charge of such waight vnto the Church to depend vppon the iudgement of one or many without the consent of the Church but y e first is true 2. cor 8. 19. therefore the second Thirdly if in euerye matter of great waight and importaunce belonging to the whole body of the Church whether seuerally in one particuler congregation or ioyntly in many the consent of the people by the whole course of Church-gouernment in the obseruation of the Apostles was requyred then the same is to be kept in this action which concerneth the particuler Church and common assemblye as much as anye other Now that the peoples cōsent was so requyred is euident by this induction following So Peter yeeldeth an account to them of the circumcision of his going into the Gentiles and satisfieth them before the Church Acts. 11. 2. 18. The Church sent foorth Barnabas to Antiochia ver 22. The churches of Antiochia Actes 15. sent Paule and Barnabas to Hierusalem about the controuersie of Circumcision And when they came to Hierusalem they were receiued by the Church and of the Apostles and Elders vers 4. And after the Apostles and Elders had come togeather to looke to that matter and had discussed the same then it seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church to sende chosen men of their owne companye to Antiochia with Paule and Barnabas then they wright the decree vnto the churches after this maner The Apostles Elders and the brethren So in excommunication their consent is required 1. Cor 5. 4. 7. 12. So in absolution the Church doth forgiue y e offense ratify their loue towards him who hath offended 2. Cor. 2. 7. 8. So in calling vppon the Minister to execute his charge the Apostle woulde not him selfe but willeth the Churrh to say to Archippus Take heede to thy ministery which thou hast receiued in the Lorde that thou fulfill it Colos 4. 17. Lastly seeing in the iudgement of all interpreters according to the trueth the Apostle reckoning vp three manner of callings the first of man that is mās ordinaunce the seconde by man that is from Gods ordinaunce by the meanes of the Church the third by Jesus Christ that is immediat without the meanes of the Church doth therby signify that the two latter only belong vnto church-elections because that in the Church none must take any honor but he which is called as was Aaron it followeth necessarily that their sole-election which by their own confession is the ordinance of man to be vnlawful and that which is by the consent of the people according to the Apostles obseruation as they themselues cannot deny to be the onelye ordinary full way of calling allowed of God This point also hath such manifest witnesse of antiquitie as before all equall Judges the cause must passe on our side For Counsels these twoo following shall witnesse not onely them-selues but by their mouthes the Decrees and censures of the Church from time to time 2. Tom concil can 8. The councell of Paris Let none be ordayned againste the will of y ◠citizens but to whom the election of the people and of the Clearkes with moste full consent haue requyred And before they say of this it is their decree that according to the Canons of the decrees it be obserued Orleans Canon 10. 11. Let it not be lawfull to get anye Bishopricke by rewardes or by other procurement but by the will of the King according to the election of the Cleargie and of the people And after besides this according as the old Canons haue decreed no Bishop maye bee giuen vnto the people againste their will Ignatius ad Philadelp It is meet that you as those which be the Church of God should choose by voyces your Bishops And the Greeke scholiast on the 14. of the Actes saith it is to bee noted that the Disciples with fasting and prayers did make election by voyces Cyprian hauing labored to prooue that the Church ought not to communicate with their Ministers which had sacrificed to Idols because they had power to choose new sayth God commaundeth the Priest to be set before the whole Synagogue that is doth ordayne and shew that briestly ordinations ought not to be made but with the conscience of the people assisting that the people beeinge present eyther the crimes of the euill shoulde be detected or the good shoulde be published and that shoulde be a iust and lawefull ordination which hath beene examined by the suffrage and iudgement of all men which afterwarde according to diuine institutions is obserued in the Actes of the Apostles c. Epist Lib. 1. Cap. 4. So Gregor Naz. in apologet Chrisost lib 3. Sacerd. So much for election the church offices follow That euery Minister of diuine seruice in the publique Congregation ought to be apt to preach COncerning this poynt the wordes of the aunswerer are these page 2. And as it seemeth such as Paule propoundeth to euery Minister as a perfect idaea which is requisite in him which is that he bee able to teache sounde doctrine to comfort to correct to instruct
compasse of the ordinarye power of the Church who beeing immediatelye called of God coulde not be demissed by the Church For seeing no calling can bee made voyde but by the authority which made it that which hath immediately proceeded from God can not be repealed but by his voyce Now seeing the immediat voyce of God and Christ did not onely not make voyde but further establish the calling of Aaron and Peter how could y e Church meddle with that Or how coulde the rule giuen to the Church for to direct their mediate elections rule the immediate calling of God And if this be not playne inough to cause him to see the difference which is as greate as that which is betweene GOD and his Churche the voyce of man and the voyce of GOD Let him vnderstande it by an other example of lyke reason It hath beene prooued alreadye both by the Scriptures and Fathers that none shoulde be admitted to the Ministery by the Church but such as were sufficiently qualified by ordinary meanes or gyftes giuen them alreadye of God vnto the same function Now if to defend the Bishoppes in admitting Taylors Shomakers Weauers Chaundlers Harpers beeing also men furnished with no gyftes one shoulde alleadge the calling of Amos who by God was taken from the sheepfolde beeing neyther a Prophet nor sonne of a Prophet woulde it not be a manyfest dallying in the sight of God and man But rather as the ordinary power of the Church can not heerein imitate the Lordes prerogatiue because they can not as God with their calling powre in gyftes into the personnes whereby they shoulde bee inabled to their office So they muste not followe the prerogatiue of GOD in this because they are rather to bee gealouse and suspicious for the Churches sake though other-wyse they are bound to hope the beste of a repentaunt Sinner ouer him leaste he shoulde agayne betraye the cause of GOD which in God is farre other-wyse who not onelye knoweth the heartes of men but also what strength he will after gyue him and if hee let him fall hee knoweth how to tourne it to the profitte of his Church Now as these examples in this respecte approche not vnto the matter in debate So the example of AVGVSTINE a Manachie or such lyke because the question is not of such as were before their ministerye such or carryed away with the common ignoraunce before they knew the trueth but of suche as firste seruiuge GOD in his appoynted seruice doe not onely leaue the holy altar and fire but renouncing that betake them-selues to a prophane and idolatrous seruice and priesthoode Wherin he receiueth answere also vnto his allegations of the fathers and counsels which if they should speake of such as fell in capitall pointes from the true seruice of God of which somtimes they were Ministers they should then be directly contrary to the fathers and general counsels which shal anon be brought as direct and manyfest on our side The lyke is to be answeared vnto Viret and the example of the French Churches Hauing thus aunsweared his obiections the truth is confirmed sufficiently by the reasons following out of the Scriptures and auncient witnes from the councels and Fathers 1 Whatsoeuer God hath commaunded to be done in the lawe to declare the honour he hath of his right seruice how he will haue his Ministery beautified and fenced against the cauilles of all which are perpetuall equityes of such their prescription 1. Tim. 3. 7 that is still and perpetuallye to binde the Church 2 But such is the order which now we speake of as may appeare by the 1. King 23. 9. and by the 44. of Ezech 13. 14. 15. c 3 Wherefore this order must be kept holy and vndefiled We know it will be obiected that these commaundementes be in the olde Testament not in the new and that they are ceremoniall They who shall so obiect must consider the old Testament is of equal authority with the new and therefore seeing God hath once established this law for the Church-ministery they must not repeale it but by the same authoritie vnlesse they will make with y â— Manichees one iust God for the law and an other mercifull for the Gospel So that vnlesse it maye be shewed eyther that this law was onely a shadowe for a tyme to come or was made for some cause peculier for that tyme and those persons which they can not doe because of the perpetuall equityes before assigned It followeth that this must stande for an holy and induring constitution of God And in trueth such aunswere vndermineth at once both the glorye and perfection of God his holy Scriptures not onelye in our iudgement but in the iudgement of all wryters holy and prophane who haue continually alleadged the sentences and commaundementes of the olde Testament euen for the matters of the gouernment of the Church The Apostle prooueth the mayntenaune of the Ministerye for preaching of the Gospell by the lawe made for the maintenaunce of the Priestes in the 1. Cor. 9. he prooueth women ought not to exercise authority by the places of Genesis and in the first of Tim. 2. Cyprian as all know that read him prooueth the election of the people by the place of Numbers and that men are not to attempt further then their calling by the places of Dathan Abiram Uzza in the carrying of the Arke and such lyke If this exception serue howe shall we any longer with the Fathers and Godly wryters of our age stoppe their mouthes for the proofe of the Baptisme of Children with the reasons from Circumcision drawne out of the lawe Nay that they maye see they can not vndermyne the gouernment of Christe with such aunswers but they must also shake the brazen Pyllers of the Sacred authoritye of the Magistrate Let them shew with what Argumentes they can stoppe the Mouthes of Papystes in maintayning the Supreame authoritie of the Prince and our moste gratious Soueraigne in Ecclesiasticall causes to reforme religion according to Gods word to plant Church-officers by the rules of the same and according therevnto to depose Abiather and set vp Sadotk to call synodes Ecclesiastical when need is or when the Church-gouernours neglect their dutye other then by the examples of Ezechias Solomon Jehoshaphat Josias and by the pregnant reasons drawn from them Wherfore let them leaue these euasions and shifts vnto popish diuines to whom they appertaine But least they should thinke we haue but one piller to vpholde this trueth and that onely in the olde Testament let them answere the reasons following out of the newe If Paule did rightly think It so vnlawfull to take Mark such a one as went from them from Pamphilia and accompanied them not vnto the worke y â— he would rather be at sharp strife with Barnabas the sonne of consolation and be seperated from so worthy a companion in all his labors then accept Mark herein being iustified aboue Barnabas by S. Luke
sauing Priests of the Seigniory would be the the first weary of it For if I knowe their disposition they are as vnpatient as any men to bee at controlment and moste of all by a poore Minister It hath alwaies bene the practise of y e subtile Serpent who that hee might vndermine the authorye of Gods Embassadours and bring the Messengers of the most highest vnto disgrace to lift vppe some who neglectinge the moste essentiall duetyes of a Pastoure and Elder in feeding the flockes and being a Pattern in their whole life and example vnto them are wont to climbe into the ambitious throne of exercising a vsurped ecclesiasticall Dominion and a Lordship ouer their fellow-ministers that whilste by their place and pompe they might amaze the people as beeing men of great learning and wisedome and might also by their authority make the poore Ministers as the aunswearer sayth Priuat Ministers to speake when they wil wryte to what they list and to be their Commissaries cryer y t is their mās man to promulgat his sentence of excommunication at his pleasure hee might also bring to passe that which the Prophet Jeremy complayneth of in both The Prophets prophesie for reward and the Priestes exercise dominion * by their meanes and my people loue it so and what will they doe in the ende Which we see hath not onely won much vnto the cause of Sathan in popery but also it keepeth much power vnto him amongest those who do professe the Gospell For by this meanes it commeth to passe that they will goe 5. mile to heare a Lord preach when they will hardly come to Church to heare their owne Pastour By this meanes they becomme so irreuerent or rather sawcie with their Pastour that they care no more for his admonition and rebuke then for the bleating of a sheepe by this meanes they maye call him before a Commissarye a lay-man as he speaketh they may fetch out Excommunications thicke and three-folde if hee appeare not and so not only not haue him not to exercise dominion ouer them which Peter forbiddeth but also be Lordes ouer their Pastour beeing but priuate personnes which the lawe of reason disaloweth Which pollicy of Sathan although it become odious in the sight almost of all men but especially of true and louing subiects who are greeued that some not onelye exercise Lordship ouer theire fellow-ministers but also pearche so high as they pray vpon the right of princes whilste they forsoothe may not eate flesh in Lent or on a Fryday but by a Byshoypes lycense yet this man who hath giuen his tong leaue to reuile the Ministers with diuers slaunders reproches cannot content himselfe with that but must open his mouth against the due authority of the Ministers of Jesus Christe In which respect wee account our selues bounde by the Canonicall obedience which we owe vnto y e Archbishop of our soules Jesus Christ according to y e Canons which he hath made in his worde first to shew how this man disordereth y e questiō according to his maner voweth consent as it seemeth with the Jesuits in these his assertions proofs and then hauing discussed his allegations to confirm the plain truth by holy authority of scripture and worthy witnes of ancient times In the entrance therfore the Answerer is not content only to fly from y e issue whether according to the word of God the minister shold exercise the censures of the Church according to y ◠word of God which with vs is executed by Commissaries meere lay-men vnto another thing namely what inconueniences the excommunication committed to the pastor might bring but also to set vpon a matter neuer affirmed by vs that a minister should without the rest of the ecclesiastical senate perform this thing His agreement with the Papists may appeare manifestly by their Annotation the 4. ver of 5. cap. 1. Cor. Their wordes are these Though he commanded the Acte shoulde be done in the face of the Church as such sentences and censures bee at this day executed also yet the iudgement and authority of giuing sentence was in himselfe and not in the whol multitude as the Protestants and populer sects affirm Wherfore seeing his cause is that which is betweene the sworne enimies of GOD and his Church we are not to fear but the truth which hath preuayled so often against them shall also carry the Garland from this newe Wrestler His first reasons are drawne from the inconueniences which hee thinketh will come vnto the Church by this means as requiring rather like a Ciuilian not a diuine what is safe then what is according to God his wil Amongst which he demaundeth whether the Authour had not rather be vnder the forme that nowe is then vnder the infinite dictatorship of his owne minister which I aunswere by another Question why should the ministers censures proceeding by the equall authority of an Eldership vpon causes determined by God his worde in a small volume be more infinite then y e Commissaries who cannot but proccede according to the infinite and contradictorye Canons of their Law who can excommunicate vpon non apparaunce for a matter of 12 pence Is it liker that one Minister shal haue many elders more tied to his wil pleasure then one Commissary his own affections Againe may not their appeale from one Eldership to a Conference or assemblie of many Ministers and Elderships be as safe as from the Commissary to another Byshop And if it were granted that the Byshop should haue authoritye in euerye particuler Churche yet with the Ministers consent vnlesse he will iustle one lawe against another why were it not more reasonable safe then as it is nowe in the Byshoppe alone Seeing then the Minister might haue more particuler knowledge of the causes in his Congregation then the Byshop and yet if hee were rash the Byshops wisedome might stay him And if the Byshoppe shoulde suspende the Minister vppon abuse of his authoritye yet hee were not at the same poynt he was before because then they which did not abuse their authoritye mighte exercise it still And if the Byshoppe dwell in the Parish and had preheminence yet hee shoulde not draw the execution of Discipline to himselfe onely but to holde it in common with him But what doe I answering his cauelles agayuste the Lawe seeing I doubt not but the Abstractor will soone aunswere his cauill in this behalf For the fountayns which are in his Booke already are not yet dammed vp by the answerer Wherefore I passe to his incōuenience which he fetcheth from the want of discretion in y ◠Minister which is What if hee vpon want of discretion doe excommunicate some greate peere of his Parish vppon some surmized cause whose indignation may turne the whole church to great mischeefe To this I answere that vnlesse the Byshops seat aboue a Pastors be so sanctified as Hierome sayth by humain constitutions as that it can alwaies proceede with
not only without reason but also sence contrary to his professed knowledge to proclayme warre amongst the Churches for this matter of circumstaunce when they all haue the substaunce agreed vppon in Gods worde and doe not tye them-selues or others to the particuler circumstaunces It is also as absurde that he setteth downe as a contrarietie to the election of the Elders and people that they allowed the Officers chosen by the Consistorye or by voyces of the people or by one Minister as thogh that were derogatory to a right order to ratifie that by good authority which was at the first imperfectly donne Yet that is most absurde which he doth obtect againste the authour of the Abstract as though he were contrarye to this order because he woulde haue the people giue their consent seeing as hath beene shewed these may not only agree but ought vnseperably to be ioyned togeather in Church-lections For if eyther by silence or otherwyse they signifie their consent and the election be not made but sufficient deliberation be giuen them to shew iust causes of their dislyke or gladly to accept them It is all one as hath beene prooued in the treatise to that purpose In the next obiection he must first prooue that we dissent before he haue an answere for to haue it done by the Consistorye and to adioyne a conference are not contrary The next is answered in the treatise of the election of Church-officers The next is an vntruth For the confirmation De la dis Eccles sheweth that the people giue their consent and approbation according to the 14. of the Actes Page 233. The next we take but for a poore cauil grounded vnlesse hee make it appeare which he speaketh of some which hold it lawfull to picke a quarrel and leaue the ministery vpon a slaunder In deed if at one mans pleasure for truthes sake they be put out to seeke an honest way to lyue is not vnlawfull nor contrarye to the decree of the French Churches that they be chosen to be Ministers their whole life vnlesse they be discharged lawfully vnto which decree all agree The next of depositions receiueth the same answere which the elections doe for the authority which electeth must be that which deposeth and the Discipline of Fraunce meaneth no otherwise And of Excommunication ther is the like iudgement The Author of the Abstract can best expound his meaning and his words bear no such collection as hee gathereth For in saying the Minister may do it and that by Lawe in his charge aswell as the Byshop in his Diocesse He doth not authorize the Byshoppe to doe it alone but with due consent to whome it doth appertaine In the nexte when hee sheweth who that some bee which make decision of controuersies incident to euery Presbytery otherwise then if they can with contentation agree of the trueth amongst themselues we will giue his aunswere to it In the meane time we iudge of it as of the rest that it is vntrue The like of the two other excepting Brown for whome he hath his aunswere and of the next about God-fathers Concerning the next poynt the which he sayth of the Churches of Fraunce that they think it lawfull to baptize without an assembly I can not beleeue it vnlesse I haue better direction then the 7. article of their Discipline in which I can finde no such thing though I finde some other articles there which he hath aledged thence wherefore I feare that it is a fiction Concerning Holy-dayes let him firste shew that the Churches obserue them in maner of a Sabboth wholly to rest from their labour and then T. C. with his reasons or the churches with theirs must giue place to the truth The diuersity about popish Priestes is aunswered before in the tretise of that matter The next are but slaunders to which he gyueth no credite by anye testimonye and are confuted before in the treatise of the Doctor It is also a manifest vntruth that T. C. mislyketh wholly That anye are suffered to preach nor hauing a Pastorall charge For he speaketh generally of such as haue no charge neither Pastorall nor Doctorall For he would haue both tyed to a certayne place yea the Elders Preaching in other mens cures or charges wherevnto men are not lawfully called wee condemne according to the iudgement of the French Churches neither doth he note any wher we might finde the contrarie In ordaining of ceremonies the admonition meaneth no otherwise than the Frenche Churches for though the Eldershippe abollishe those which are vnprofitable yet it may be don with consent alowance of other Churches for which cause hee entreateth of conferences page 30. 31. c. That hee saith of the admonition as though they misliked a prescript forme of prayer is an vtter vntruth for there are not anye wordes which shewe they mislike a prescript forme of prayers As for vnleauened bread it is but proper to Geneua onely now our Church hath alowed the other why should he then make any difference or strife about it The matters of mariage or such like heere named as they are handled with vs are ciuil but as they become doubtfull in any question of God his worde or what is expedient for the Church to doe for auoyding of offence belongeth vnto the Ecclesiasticall seigniorie and so that difference is aunsweared In the other also it is defended as vnlawfull for a Minister of the Worde to be occupied in Ciuill affayres Againste this he in vaine bringeth an exception in Elders which rule onely Neither is it simplye a Ciuill thing to giue testimonies in writinges for to doe it for matters Ecclesiasticall as for soundnesse of fayth for assuring them to be receiued which were excommunicate or such like it is an Ecclesiastical not a Ciuill action Touching the order of the French Church for publishing of Bookes we consent that where the Discipline is established and an order taken that men with modesly in a Synode may be sufficiently heard and satisfied that it ought to be in force and as an Eeclesiasticall order obeyed from which yet a man may swarue being dryuen to gyue defence to the truth of God The next setteth his conceits in the laughter of all men For maye we not mislyke that he which ordayneth shoulde bydde the ordayned receaue the holye Ghoste which he can not gyue nor hath promise that his imposition of handes shall distribute auye gifts and yet alow that that place for instruction be repeated and intreased of Concerning his long srory of subscription this may be sufficient shortly to aunswere both to shew our â—uitye in iudgement with the Churches and also to satisfie the Church of England First therefore we say that we haue alwayes beene readye according to our dutye to subscribe to her Maiesties supreame authority and to the Articles of religion concerning the doctrine of fayth and of the Sacramentes which is all that is requyred by law Secondly when as it is