remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
vs but a deuout mind for wheresoeuer a man so qualified speaketh he wil answere These be reuerend witnesses such as cannot be excepted against to whom Chrysostomes witnesse may bee added out of his Homilies de poenitentia Homines vtuntur atriensibus Homil. 4. saith hee in Deo nihil est tale sine mediatore est execrabilis Men vse dore-keepers in God there is no such thing for he is execrable or easie to bee intreated without a mediator And againe elsewhere De profect Euang. Nihil tibi opus est patronis apud Deum neque enim tam facile Deus audit si alij pro nobis orent quam si ipsi òremus et si pleni simus omnibus malis With God thou hast no neede of any Patrons for God doth not so readily heare if others pray for vs as if we pray our selues although we bee full of all manner of euils Wherefore they that set vp to themselues new mediators whether it be of redemption or intercession for by such nice distinctions our good Catholickes elude the authoritie of Saint Paul those men dishonour Iesus Christ our onely mediator 1. Tim. 2.5 and so make open shew to the world that they are the members of Antichrist The Dialogue Sectio XX. Vowes of Chastitie and marriage of Priests VEteribus Iudeorum sacerdotibus vxores ad vsum habere licebat c. It was lawfull for the ancient Priests among the Iewes to haue the vse of wiues because they a After that Dauid had sorted them not before had much time wherein they were not employed in the administration of their office but when the time drew néere wherein they were to serue in their turnes First hauing prepared themselues some dayes before they came vnto the Temple to offer to God but now there ought to be b VVhy doe you not obserue this as well as the other seuen Deacons and so many Priests as euerie Church may haue two Priests and euerie Citie one Bishop and for this cause ought they all of them to abstaine from women because they are all of them bound c VVhat night and day continually without intermission continually to attend vpon their office in the Church neither haue they any time of intermission wherein after their companying with their wiues they may d There was neuer any purification of Priests since Christs time yet many were maried neither is it needfull to purifie an vndefiled bed Hebr. 13 4. be purified as the Priests of the Iewes had for they are to offer euerie wéeke if not euerie day vnto strangers yet twise euerie wéeke for their Parochians and there are dayly some sicke persons to be baptised Saint Ambrose in his Commentarie vpon the third Chapter of the first Epist to Timothie The Answere THese Vowes and single life of Priests which our Papist here propoundeth for Catholicke proceeded first from the Deuill the spirite of errour and so Paul teacheth vs in the first to Timothie Cap. 4.1.3 neither is it any thing to the purpose that the ancient Fathers allowed of these errours and gaue them countenance in their writings for heretickes did so likewise aswell as Catholickes and the Fathers did it not of a set deliberate iudgement but of an extraordinary zeale and loue they bare to that kinde of life especially in Gods Ministers Castitas blanda est quemlibet ad se alliciens Ier in Math. cap. 19 Orig in Rom. ca. 12 lib. 9. Chastitie hath a faire shew and doth easily entice any man to it saith Ierome and Origen Potest aliquis de Castitate plus sapere quà m oportet sapere A man may haue a better conceit of Chastitie than hee ought to haue and that the Fathers sometime went beyond the bounds of sobriety in this point of doctrine let Chrysostome serue for example who writes thus in his first Homilie vpon Mathew Chrysost in Math. Hom. 1. Haec ipsa coniunctio maritalis malum est coram Deo non dico peccatum sed malum This verie coniunction of married couples is euill before God I do not say it is sin but euill And yet presently after in the same place he sayth Non potest fierie vt vna eademque res pro parte sit iustitia pro parte peccatum aut enim tota est iustitia aut totum est peccatum quia libido in maritis adulteris res vna est It cannot be that one the same thing should be partly righteousnesse and partly sinne but it must be either all righteousnesse or all sinne because lust in maried persons and adulterers is one thing You shall haue another example out of the west I meane out of Tertullian who though he were a Priest himselfe as Ierome witnesseth Descrip ecclesiast lib. 1 ca. 11. Tertul lib. de exhort ad castitat and maried too as appeareth by his Booke written to his wife saith notwithstanding In matrimonio deprehendo quae stupro competunt In matrimonie I finde some things which are competent to adulterie And againe Nuptiae ex eo constant quod est stuprum Marriage consisteth of that which is whoredome The like vnciuill out-roads against Gods holy ordinance may you finde in Ierome against Iouiniane and Heluidius and in his Letter to Gerontia and in some other of the ancient Fathers and therefore in all equitie you must thinke they are not fit Iudges to determine either of Priests marriage or vowes of Chastitie Howbeit let vs heare what they say The first is Ambrose whose reason drawn from the Priests vnder the law is now nothing worth among vs where neither of the Sacraments is so often to bee attended vpon but that your Priests for ought may appeare haue time inough to be purified in neither was this often baptizing and communicating general euery where or most where in Ambroses time Againe what impuritie or pollution can there bee in the true and lawfull vse of marriage doth Saint Paul say the bed is vndefiled Hebr. 23 4. De bono coniug cap. 11. Socrat. hystor lib. 1. cap. 8. and Austine Sancta sunt corpora coniugatorum fidem sibi domino seruantium The bodies of married folkes are holy if they keepe their faith betweene themselues and to the Lord. And doth not Paphnutius that worthy Confessor say in the hearing of all the Fathers in the Counsell of Nice Viri cum vxore legitima concubitus castimonia est The companying of a man with his lawfull wife is chastity Verily I see not why I may not answere Saint Ambrose as the voice of God from heauen answered Saint Peter in the like case those thinges that God hath purified pollute thou not I am sure Ignatius giueth him a sharper answere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 10 15 11 9. ad Philadelph That is to say Hee that calleth lawfull copulation and procreation of children corruption and pollution that man hath the apostaticall Dragon the Diuell dwelling in
for the repressing of popish insolencie First therefore where it is disputed that if our description of the Church be right then the ancient Fathers were heretickes and the vniuersall Church hereticall I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie Gal. 2.11 c. Act. 15.39 Act. 11.2 c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke and so was either Barnabas or Paul who were so stirred the one against the other that they parted asunder Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie for communicating to the Gentiles yet the Church was deceiued and not Peter 1. Co. 3 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie and euerie one that builds timber hay or stubble vpon the foundation is not an hereticke and therefore this loose talke is little worth Yea but let vs admit saith hee that there was such a Church as you imagine in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ though it bee most false nay you must admit it maugre your head neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word prooue it to be false and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it or imagining it as your selfe but so long as you vse such a generall defence as they of Sodome and Gomorha and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot the Cananites against Abraham and the old world against Noah and his familie there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth if Lot Abraham and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time by multitude by authoritie of Princes by traditions of Elders or by any thing else in the world but Gods owne mouth they had been as Sodome and like to Gomorha and yet for all that Peter the head Patron of Rome as you say and the Iewes that depended vppon him playd the hypocrites together and Barnabas a good man full of the holy Ghost and faith Act. 11.24 was led away with them to the same hypocrisie and though the scripture testifie of Lot that hee was a iust man Gal. 2.13 and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked yet by your leaue 2. Pet. 2.7.8 the prostitution of his daughters his drunkenesse and incest Gen. 19.8.31 c. doe plainely euince that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome Yea but Sodome was not the Church of God neither was there any Christian Church established when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites Well Let that bee graunted yet my reason is so much the stronger for if Strangers from God and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much that the one drew Lot the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient how much more may the vsuall slips and fals and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine for that 's more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe but this we say and are sure that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead waking againe 600. 2. Thes 2.7 yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed for Rome was not built in a day or vpon a suddaine and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly and so perceiue how he went on and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira Reuel cap. 2.14.15.20 though they were Gods faithfully Ministers yet doe wee not read that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites and Nicholaitans and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches Epist 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda liberiùs improbare non audeo I dare not freely as I should improoue many scandals of this kind because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist being a compound heresie of many simples grew on soft and faire and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance till the time came it should bee disclosed if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed the ancient Fathers and their adherents would haue laboured to restore it but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces they knew not the deepenesse of Satan Reuel 2.24 Math. 13.25 c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat til they were past weeding neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius Spiridion Ambrose Austine Epiphanius Gelasius Chrysostome Calixtus Cyprian Apollonius Paphnutius and others against outward braueries abstinence from flesh monkish idlenesse painted Images suffrages for the dead transubstantiation the halfe communion vnwritten determinatiōs set fastings forbidding mariage mans weak iudgment and such like flowers of Antichrists garland and if these had sayd nothing yet there were many other Fathers besides these and whether they tooke penne in hand and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew it were hard to tell yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie as you may denie it howsoeuer it be the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse the doctrine of Rome Reuel 17.9 which is the seat of Antichirst grew and increased a long time but thankes bee to God it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it 2. Thes 2.8 and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour till it conquer sinceritie and truth and breake forth into open absurdities so strange a matter in the Church of God Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell In proemio Quorundā patrum vtilis fuit religiosa suggestio retractandi de his quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers concerning retracting those thinges which because of the holynesse of the Church we may not receiue and yet by reason of custome dare