orphanorum Tu leuamen oppressorum Medicamen infirmorum Omnibus es omnia That is to say Thou blessed Virgin Marie art the infallible l DVR Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians his hope 1. Thess 2.19 WHIT. pag. 796. But hee neuer put his trust in nor called vpon them as you doe the Virgin Marie hee called them his hope because he receiued great hope and ioy by his labours in their conuersion You make the Virgin an instrument of our saluation and therefore you trust in her but the Scriptures teach euery where to trust in God and Christ only As Psal 71.3 Ier. 17.5.7 1. Tim. 1.1 and 1. Pet. 1.21 hope of such as are in miserie the true mother of Orphanes Thou art the consolation of such as be oppressed the medicine of such as bee diseased Thou art all m DVR The sentence of the Catholike Church hath no vvhere alloued this but if it had it might be conueniently defended WHIT pag. 797. Duraeus can conueniently expound that which most absurdly taketh the office of reâ—eÌ„ption froÌ„ Christ and giueth it to the Virgin Mary in all to all men or in all necessities and other such like abominable speeches and full of strange blasphemie If happily you thinke our reproouing of these things be but some fighting with a shadow then doe you no more respect the glorie of God than the shadow of an Asse The second error in disputation wherewith you charge vs Logomachia is that wee often vse Logomachia which is when the sense is neglected and men contend about the word I vnderstand it well but which bee those our faults committed in this kinde Can you finde vs say they the Masse or Purgatorie in the Scriptures And is not this our demaund reasonable For where should these be found rather than in the Scriptures There was nothing wont to be accounted more holy than the Masse and there could nothing be inuented more gainfull than Purgatorie that neither of these now at last should be found in the Scriptures certainly it may well seeme a very strange and vnreasonable thing Belike then say you Trinitas the Trinitie Homousios coessentiall Persona a person are no where in the Bible because these very termes are not to be found there Neither say we so Campian nor will it follow at all hereupon and these things be altogether vnequally compared For albeit these very termes are not in Scriptures Epiphan contra Semiarian l. 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet the matter it selfe and the sense as Epiphanius writeth commeth to hand in all places and is easily euery where to bee found But your n DVR Did you neuer reade these vvords of Christ in his last Supper this is my body WHIT. pag. 799. Yea but Christ ordeined then a SacrameÌ„t not a sacrifice he offered himselfe a sacrifice only once vpon the Crosse Heb 9 10. not in his last Supper except you will say he died then also vvhich he must haue done to make it a sacrifice but he was then aliue it were most absurd to say he was aliue and dead at one time which he needs must be both then and in al your Masses if there be any sacrifice in the Masse at all Againe externall sacrifices as you say your Masse is are subiect to the sight outward senses but no man euer saw Christ to be sacrificed either in the Supper or in the Masse Therefore there is none neither in the one nor in the other DVR Jt vvas a sacrifice for Christ vvas really conteined vnder those former of bread and vvine and so the Masse is novv an vnbloodie sacrifice WHIT. pag. 801. You cannot prooue him to be so present there as you teach by no Scripture and if he were yet that was not therefore a sacrifice except you will haue his reall being in the Virgins wombe also to be a sacrifice in which he was conteined As for your vnbloody propitiatorie sacrifice first it is absurd for to sacrifice killeth a bodie but your Transubstantiation maketh a bodie secondly it hath no word of God for it thirdly it is needlesse Christs sacrifice being perfect fourthly Christ ordained that supper in memorie of his sacrifice not to be it selfe a sacrifice WHIT. pag. â—03 DVR Many of the Fathers call the Eucharist by the name of sacrifice WHIT. pag 805. Not because it is that same which Christ offered as you teach but because it is a memoriall and Sacrament of it DVR Purgatorie is most plainely prooued by the fact of Iudas Machabaeus in the second booke and 12. chapter WHIT. pag. 806. Those bookes are not Canonicall Scripture neither doth that act prooue a Purgatorie by your owne doctrine who say those that die in deadly sinne as those did there mentioned goe to hell and not to Purgatorie Masse and Purgatorie are not in this manner in the Scriptures seeing neither the names nor the things themselues any where do appeare yea they are plainly against the Scriptures For what else is either the Masse than as * Bustum coenae Dominica an empty sepulchre where is onely the title of the Lords Supper or what is Purgatorie more than a shamelesse merchandise of soules and an intolerable contempt against the blood of Christ Wherefore this is not a trisling contention about words but a most waightie one about matters of moment except peraduenture you make account of the Masse and Purgatorie not to bee matters of moment but words of Arte only As for the name o DVR The office of a Presbyter or Elder in the Gospell is the same that the Priests office vvas in the Lavve WHIT. pag. 807. It is not so for if the office did remaine why should the name be changed for Elders are neuer called Priests in the new Testament And there be ruling Elders in the Church which labour not in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments as the Priests did Presbyter and Sacrament it is appropriated from the common signification to some certaine and particular things as likewise many other names are to wit Ecclesia the Church Episcopus a Bishop Apostolus an Apostle Diaâ—onus a Deacon and these names wee willingly vse but so that wee carefully shunne their impertinent significations Neither was that indeede sufficient cause why you should register Matrimonie in the catalogue of Sacraments because S. Paul wrote thus Sacramentum hoc magnum Eph. 5. This is a great mysterie For in that place Sacramentum is vsed in a large signification for any mysterie not for that ceremony which may properly be called a Sacrament As for that counsell of Thomas Aquinas we doe very well approue it The third head Homonymia or kinde of deceitfull disputation which you say we vsually erre in is Homonymia equiuocation or a mistaking the sense of words whereof you propound two examples For say you we both confound the order of Priests because S. Iohn hath tearmed vs all Priests and also abolish choice of
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
profitable and fruitfull Finally what is a Christian life but that which is spent in the duties of charity for all Christians are bound vnto these duties Then notwithstanding all these Gregorie is still with vs. Nazianzen de haer Philosoph Nazianzene speaketh no lesse honourablie of this ciuill and sociable life than of the solitarie life of Monkes which your cloister men cannot indure Ambros in Rom. cap. 1. r DVR Ambrose codemneth suffragators not intercessors that is such as might informe God what we are not such as might commeÌ„d our vvants to him WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants without an intercessor as what we are without a suffragator If he do why should the one be allowed more then the other This new distinction of yours I thinke our Vniuersity men neither know not wil acknowledge or what is intercessioÌ„ but a suffragation or what do you els desire of the Saints but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them who thinke it necessary for them when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours as men doe in courts of Princes before they can bee brought to the King himselfe they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants Doth not this thing touch you doth not this speech draw blood of you who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests Hieron Ep. Å¿ DVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest and a Deacon as was betwixt Aaron and his sonnes and the Leuites Epist ad Euagr. And if there be equality it is in iurisdiction not in povver of order WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely that the Apostle doth plainly teach that a Bishop and a Priest are all one and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome not by Gods ordinance And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God which happely slipped from you vnawares their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man Hierome did too much contemne your Pope and other your glorious Bishops when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop by the law of God are all one doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests but also all Bishops t DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it least any of the Manichies vvho superstitiously and vvickedly abstained from blood might looke among the Catholikes WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere though your Gratian bee against it But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper But whosoeuer did it Gelatius censureth it thus The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious and strictly commandeth De consecrat dist 2. Comperimus Vigil lib. 1. cont Eutych that either the whole be receiued or it be wholly omitted Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature u DVR Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the visible presence of his humanity and not the humane nature himselfe WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary He therfore is vvith vs and not vvith vs because whom he left and from whom he departed in his humanity he hath not left nor forsaken in his Diuinity And againe in lib. 4. contr Eutych vvhen he vvas in the earth hee vvas not in heauen and novv that he is in heauen hee is not in the earth And againe hee vvas circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity this is the Catholike confession and faith vvhich the Apostles haue deliuered the Martyrs haue confirmed and the faithfull haue kept to this day If this be the Catholike faith then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre otheâ—vvise of the humanity of Christ The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs whereas you say Christ is present in both natures * DVR Chrysostome because hee savv many so addicted and giuen to theaters stage plaies and impious Interludes did thus admonish them lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures WHIT pag. 458. Be it so haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull saue reading of the Scriptures But vvho so readeth Chrysostome in Ioan. hom 13. in Epist. ad Coloss hom 9. de Lazaro hom 3. shall find that he required this simplie necessarily and generally of all men Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles Chrysost ad Coloss hom 9. in Ioan. hom 8. reade the Scriptures and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife the father with his children would conferre among themselues of the Scriptures But this neither can nor lawfully may be done in your Church yea it is a certaine proofe of an heretique for any to haue the Bible in his house What shall I say of Augustine who in the greatest and most principall controuersies as of grace predestination free will iustification the Scripture the Law the Gospel sinne good workes Sacraments and Church is wholly and fully ours I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars and collect but a little of euery thing Gregor lib. 4. Epist. 30. 34. Gregory the great though he was a Bishop of Rome yet will he take our part against you For tell mee doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke when peremptorily he affirmed that whosoeuer should call himselfe the x DVR Gregory condemned Iohn because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops as the Emperour had ouer the Kings vvho are subiect vnto them WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a povver or no it is not certaine but no man can be ignorant how the Pope affecteth it And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops but hath subdued the Emperour
Churches Apostasie out of these your owne Chronicles they are no secrets but such as any man that will reade and obserue may easilie discerne And since you call vs vnto Histories f DVR Two things here are of which you would persvvade the Reader one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous for whether you respect the aâ—â—bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome or the authority of the Councell or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter and of no smale importance I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie consider it well whether it touch your Pope or no and then answere fully concerning the whole matter A Councell was assembled in Africke of 217. Concil Carthag 6. cap. 3.1.7.9 Bishops whereof Augustine himselfe was one the glorie and starre of Africke I will set downe the story briefly Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates which should perswade the Fathers of Africke that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice wherein the priuiledge was recorded the Fathers wonder at this new decree and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin and that as they thought the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage which was himselfe present at that Councell had brought into Africke notwithstaÌ„ding they determine to send to Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch such as might receiue the true and naturall copies from the Bishops of those cities The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending but could not Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere Concil Afâ—â—c Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found so they writ to Celestine then Pope and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after and not to send abroad his Collectors lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily but perforce for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage which was now President of the African Councell and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes whereof Augustine was the chiefe were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes Aurelius of Carthage other the African Bishops yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke These things I haue related out of their truest records and of this kind I could rehearse many more so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches which also at length they obtained But because you aske the question and desire answere when Rome lost her faith so much commended and what that which once was ceased to be I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before yet theÌ„ did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop I will not too curiously search into the moments of times a mischiefe creepeth priuily for a time vnespied of men But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was that Gregory the great was the last good and the first ill Bishop of Rome He was no better then he should be and all that succeeded him were starke nought euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes so that now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church and hath possessed all the parts therof You force me Campian to open the sores of your Church which I had rather not touch but you are so vnreasonable that you neither spare vs nor your selues Barnard who was the only religious man your Church had for many yeares how often and how grieuously doth he bewaile the most desperat estace of your Church g DVR Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church but of the manners of the vvicked and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such as he describeth both heere and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell If I durst speaze it these are rather paâ—â—ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe Your Court vsually receiueth good men but maketh sevv good There the vvicked are not made better but the good farre worse A number of such places I could alledge out of him neither bewailâ—th lâ—ethe mixture of the bad as you say but the perishing of the good and the ruâ—ne of the Church A shamefull contagion spreaâ—â—â—h ouer the body of the whole Church Bernard in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer Pauli the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason mouing thereunto Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik Aeneas Syluius afterwards Pope writeth that charity was waxed cold and faith vtterly gone and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been when shee had lost both faith and charity But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church and that after hee changing his opinion when of Aeneas he was made Pius for that was euer his vsuall speech Cast
some filthines About the most of which seeing that you haue had an answere made you by him whom you name Reuerend Charke I maruell that you haue returned them to vs heere againe There must needs be great lacke of true imputations seeing that you haue no varietie at all of false ones And seeing that my fellow souldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligeÌ„tly in these things those things which are largely enough confuted by him shall bee run ouer now by mee briefely and shortly It shall bee therefore enough for mee to cut in sunder these your peeces which haue been before so broken in shiuers as that they might seeme able to hurt none Wherefore now spue out these your morsels of reproches And heare ye them If the wife will not or cannot let the maid come A filthie and vncleanely speech as it seemeth Luther wrote a little booke of marriage in the second part whereof hee remembers three causes whereby hee thinketh marriage may be dissolued The first is Impotencie another is Adultrie the third is Desertion Now hee expoundes that to be desertion when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no meanes bee perswaded to performe the office of due benouelence to the husband for there are some such froward wiues found that although the husband doe fall ten times into whordome yet they regard it neuer a whit Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband to fray his wife with words and to threaten hir on this manner If you will not another will If the mistrisse will not let the maide come With whom if threats preuaile not let him conuent her before others and bring the matter to the Church But now if she be neither moued with priuate threatnings nor by the publike reproofes of the Church then saith Luther diuorce her and take Ester into Vashties place Only to propouÌ„d these things in this maÌ„ner is a very euident confutation of Campians reproch For who doth not marke what counsaile Luther gaue to the husband not that he should presently take his mayd but that he should propose threats of diuorce to his obstinate wife and breake her stomacke by that meane Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of diuorce though I doe not defend yet you cannot accuse it c DVR You are ignorant that vvith vs only adultery is the cause of diuorce WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your owne Canons for to omit others see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed If any shall say that the Church doth erre vvheÌ„ shee decreeth that for many causes diuoâ—ce from bâ—dde and cobabitation may be had either for a certaine or vnlimited time let him be accursed Do not you now differ from your owne Councell as alâ—o from the Apostle For among you there be infinite causes of diuorce so as in so great liberty of diuorce it is maruaile that any marriage stood in force If Luther had at any time written any such thing as wee reade was written by Clement whom you brag to haue beene Pope of Rome what tragedies would yee haue raised Heare Campian I would haue you marke whereto this speech tendeth d DVR If you had seene some old copies or vvaighed the scope of the Epistle you might easilie haue seene that the place is corrupted WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement for I easily thinke that Clement would neuer speake so dishonestly But when you father Epistles vpon auncient Bishops such as they neuer writ God would shew your perfidie by manifest demonstrations For copies we haue none whether old or new but from you and many I haue seene and they all haue it Yet remember that you here confesse the Popes decretall Epistles to bee corrupted why 〈◊〉 forged which other where you perempâ—orily deny The common vse of all things Clement Epist 5. that are in this world ought to be to all men But through mens naughtines one said that this was his and another that and so there is a diuision made betweene mortall men Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians knowing this to bee so saith that all things among frieÌ„ds ought to be common Now among al things without doubt are husbands and wiues You may think you heare some Plato discoursing of the communitie of things alleadge some like place of Luthers What theÌ„ followeth after in those patches of yours For because the carnall knowledge of the wife is as necessarie to euery one as meate and drinke and sleepe are e DVR Tertul de Monog Hieron lib. 1. contra Iouinian vnderstand it only of those vvho are married that they might lawfully keepe and haue their wiues still WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretike Montanus that you greatly approue of And hee that knoweth not Hierome to bee further carried in the contempt of marriages then the Scriptures do allow of he accounteth the authoritie of Hieromes writings more then of the Word of God But the Apostle reiecteth this interpretation for when he commandeth that euery man should haue his wife to auoid foâ—nication vvho seeth not that this law concerneth the vnmaâ—ried who are forbidden fornication as well as the married And after in the 9. vers he speaketh to the vnmarried If they cannot absteine let them marâ—â—â— for it is better to marrie then to burne Therefore hee doth not onliâ— commaund that they vvho haue vviues keepe them still but that they vvhâ—â— haue not should marrie if they found it necessarie for them to auoid incontiâ—â—â—cie The Apostle commandeth 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that euery one for the auâ—iding of fornication haue his wife and euery woman her owne husband and that they that cannot conteine should marrie They therefore who haue it not giuen to them by God as that they can alwaies be without wiues to such it is necessary that they marry wiues if they will bee honest and chaste For I confesse that marriage is not necessarie for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of vncleannesse and lust But goe forward Marriage is much better than Virginitie and against this Christ and Saint Paul perswaded Christian men The same things doe not agree to all men and that which is most profitable to some one may be contrarie to the inclinations of others Virginitie is one of those indifferent things which are as they are vsed for it is not simply good for then it were vnlawfull at all to thinke of marriage but after a sort f DVR VVhat is this else but euen the same that Iouinian ansâ—vered vnto Hierome the rest of the auncient Fathers As Augustine shevveth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24 WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoeuer will be single for this only end that he may liue so much the more 〈◊〉 â—ase and in the more pleasure and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage do deserue to be blamed with Iouinian And this sort
the fatte would be in the fire Campian if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther for this is to shew your selfe a right Iesuite as indeed you are shamelessely and audaciously to breake out into rayling and specially to teare Luther with most bitter reproches This is your facultie and profession this you haue vndertaken to do whatsoeuer youâ— leaue vndone surely he is an happy man whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of such wicked men for he cannot chuse but be an excellent man whom wicked men do so deadly pursue But you obiect against Luther his Apostasie look to your selfe Campian if you may not bee more iustly accused of this crime for doubtlesse you are either an Apostata or you were a cunning hypocrite But if it be Apostasie to forsake Apostataes then was Luther such an Apostata For hee abandoned theeues heretikes Apostataes and separated himselfe from that Curch in which that daily Apostasie from religion 2. Thess 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell was now come to the height they then who would not be Apostataes must flie from the Apostasie of your Church But say you Luther spake not so reuerently of the Epistle of S. Iames as was fitting It is well all you can challenge him with is touching this Epistle only he neuer did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn neither the Epistles of Saint Paul or Saint Peter only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epistle of S. Iames Luther only reiected it vndoubtedly no neither was Luther ignorant what censure the auncient Church gaue of this Epistle * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius adueÌ„tured to write expresly of this Epistle thus b DVR But Eusebius onely saith that this Epistle vvas thought of diuers not to be vvritten by S. Iames and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it For after hee saith It was receiued of many Churches WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrest both the words and sence of Eusebius for he alleageth not other mens opinions but his owne direct iudgement But if wee admit that you say it must the rather bee counterfeit for if Saint Iames did not write it and yet hee calleth himselfe James the seruant of God and of our Lord Iesus Christ must it not bee forced â—aue the pen-men of the Scripture vsed to take other mens names vnto them If you deny it to bee written by Saint James you must needes confesse it to be Apocrypha and so after your sense Eusebius hath reiected this Epistle which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appeare And that hee saith many Churches receiue it and not all must needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames is counterfeit what can be written more plainely it may be you will except against Eusebius But tell vs why therefore not to stand with you Hieronym in Catalogo will you heare what Hierome saith who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome The Epistle of Iames is held to haue been published vnder his name by some other The one saith it is counterfeit the other writeth that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle but by some other Why then are you angrie with Luther whom you see not vnaduisedly and rashly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epistle but therein followeth the iudgement and censure of the auncient Church for from hence it is very cleare c DVR Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke what shall vve then say to Caluin vvho hath plainely denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues vvas vvritten by Saint Paul and if you had not been a deceiuer you vvould haue alleadged Hierome vvholy for it follovveth Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authoritie WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith It is thus held and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspition sheweth he not himself also doubtful of it Caluin had some reason because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul as this was of Saint Iames. What comparison is there in these two the Epistle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it as the author of it so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul so that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames must needes make it counterfeit But no such thing here Therefore may this be held to be canonicall though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul If you had read but a few lines more you should finde that I vsed no deceite neither had you causâ— to be so bitter And these words of Hierome prooue directly that the authoritie of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epistle But you will say it was afterwards receiued and Hierome witnesseth as much I inquire not how iustly that might be receiued in a succeeding age which once was reiected that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning it might gaine in time by mens calmnesse in iudging neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle Let it be as great as euer any booke had we verily receiue it and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures for whatsoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle or lessen the credit of it any way yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it and iudge it written by the Apostle or some Apostolike man and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle * Caluin in argument in Epist. Iacob I saith Caluin willingly and without controuersie receiue this Epistle because I see no iust cause to reiect it Therefore obiect no longer vnto vs other mens sharpe censures and hard speeches whereof we are no wayes guilty for what is it to vs what other men thinke of this Epistle who dispraise no part of it neither detract any thing from the authority thereof But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing which you make mention of let vs see the place that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale You tell vs of a Preface he writ vpon the Epistle of S. Iames such as I thinke few men know for it is no where to be found amongest Luthers workes yet by accident I light vpon that preface and read it from the beginning to the ending in which not any of those things is to be seene which you mention so that we may easily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the sequell when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lye so palpablie For Luther begins his preface thus The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie I much commeÌ„d hold very fitting profitable And in
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
of euils were rather increased then taken away DVR Yea but he hath shened his contrary iudgment vvriting his Cledonius WHIT. Nothing lesse but only hee affirmeth that he vvould subscribe to the Apollinarian heretikes if they could proue that they vvere receiued of the vvest Councell vvhich hee knevv they could not Nazianzene Nazianz. Epist. 4â— ad Procop. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should so vniustly iudge and so iniuriously write of them For he saith that he had deliberated with himselfe and fully resolued to auoid Episcopall Conuocations because he had neuer seene a good issue of any Synode Which howsoeuer it hath bin true of many which by reason of the ambition and busie medling of some haue not taken away auncient controuersies but rather haue sowed the seed of new contentions yet many Councels haue been approued and commended by their most wished euent Whereas therefore you appeale to Councels we will follow you in many in their most weighty censures and decrees for in all neither do you your selues iudge it necessary But let vs now heare you discoursing concerning Councels A waighty question say you concerning lawfull cereâ—â—â—ies was cleared in a Councell of the Apostles and Fldâ—rs assembled together The children beleeued their Parents and the Sheepe their Shephâ—ard commaunding in this forme of speech It bath pleased the holy Ghost and vs. Where you make mention of a Councell most excellent and aboue all exceptions in which nothing was done rashly peruersely and factiously as sometimes in other Councels it hath been accustomed but al things diuinely and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself and therfore if we did not beleeue this Councell we were vnworthy of the name either of children or of sheep This Councel resolued that important question concerning ceremonies and freed the neckes of Christians from that most grieuous yoke of Mosaicall rites whereby the greater cause of griefe is offered vs by you who haue imposed vpon the Church contrarie to the expresse commandement of this Councell another yoke much more intolerable then that of Moses For this is cleare and manifest that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you and imposed vpon the consciences of men are twice as many as those which in time past Moses by Gods expresse commaundement inioyned vnto the people of Israell August ad Ianuar. And this is that of which c DVR Angustine vvhen he vvrit this did not after your manner carpe at Ecclesiasticall ceremonies but shevveth that be vvould not haue them instituted at euery mans pleasure For in his first Epistle to Ianuariuâ— he thus vvriteth If the vvhole Church vse any of these it iâ— insolent madnes to dispute vvhether such a thing is to be done or no WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time and vvould haue vs rest contented vvith those few ceremonies vvhich are commended vnto vs in the Scriptures Ad Ianuar. Epist 118. cap. 1. Epist. 119.19 His vvords vvhich you alleage I vvillinglie embrace for vve vse and esteeme those ceremonies vvhich all Churches haue receiued as necessary for order and comelinesse But of this kind yours are not neither can you vvrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approue your Traditions seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ Augustine long agone complained namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies the state of Christians was become worse then the state of the Iewes themselues which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time how much more would he haue thus complained had he seene the great multitudes which were afterwards added to them But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning iudgment of the holy Ghost did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himselfe had ordeined were to be abolished how intolerable is your boldnes who contrary to the decree of this spirit and Councell haue obtruded vpon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies Did the Lord therfore abolish his owne ceremonies that he might establish yours did he abrogaâ—â— a few that he might bring in a multitude did he ease vs of lighter that he might impose heauier Whereby it appeareth that the diuine institution of this Councel which as it was before all other in time so aboue all other in excellency is most wickedly by you violated And is it to be thought possible that you who haue demeaned your selues so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors will be more respectiue towards others Nay there is not any Councell which you haue not long ago trodden vnder feete so that euery one of you are infoulded in a thousand excoÌ„munications And dare you Campian notwithstanding make mention of Councels which if they were in any force surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church then Publicans and Pagans There followeth this say you for the rooting out of heresie the foure general Councels of the auncient Fathers which were of such strength and authority that a thousand yeares since they were had in singular account euen as Gods word it selfe And we likewise doe freely confesse that the authority of those foure Councels was good and profitable Luthe de Concil Reade what learned Luther hath writ of those foure generall Councels and so also you may know our iudgement of them Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent vnto Gregorie Gregor lib. 1. Epist 24. who professeth that he doth imbrace and reuerence these foure Councels as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell For this were rather to violate the Gospell then to reuerence the Councels Although as I take it Gregories meaning was that what was decreed and concluded in these foure Councels out of Gods word against Arriuâ— Euâ—â—onius Macedonius Nostorius Eutyches and Dioscâ—ruâ— that he firmely embraced and would not suffer these decreet which are approued by the Euangelicall writings and in which this impious heresie is condemned to be reuoked and repealed no more then the Gospell it selfe neither can I imagine that it was Gregories purpose to affirme this of all these Councels that the Councell of Nice Constantinâ—ple Ephesus and Chalcedâ—n were fully equall vnto the holy Gospell in authority and dignity And so we our selues do not doubt that those things which these Fathers haue determined against those heretikes before named concerning the consubstantiall subsistence of the Father and the Sonne of the diuinity of the holy Ghost of the one person of Christ in two natures are as true as the Gospel it selfe not because these Councels so iudged and concluded but because in the Gospell the selfe same doctrine of faith is deliuered Further you say That also iâ—â—â—r owne country by our Parliaments the same Councels retaine their auncient right It is true indeed that in these and all other things which they propound if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures they doe still retaine their auncient right and dignity But lest you should
Dioscorus as for diuer other faults so especially for excommunstating the Pope vvas depriued of Episcopall authority Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He exteÌ„deth his madnes against him vnto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Sauiour and against thee who labourest to vnite the body of the Church Againe they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome vvhichus head of all the Churches depriued him because as Lucentius addeth hee presumed to call a Councell vvithout the authority of the Apostolike Sea WHIT. pag. 302. This councell is so far from confirming the Popes supremacy that it plainly ouerthroweth it for though Pope Leo with all earnestnes opposed against the honor and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople yet he obteinâ—â— of the Councell that degree of honor which he desired which he could not haue done if the Councell had acknovvledged the Popes supremacy Concerning Dioscorus he was depriued for many notable crimes as murther blasphemy against the Trinity burglary adultery and excommunicating the Pope and you make this last a speciall cause of his depriuation as though it were a more heinous crime then murther adultery and blasphemy Therein aduauncing your Pope as your manner is aboue the blessed Trinity The committing of the vineyard to Peter maketh nothing for your Pope who is not Peter nor any thing like him Proue that it was committed to the Pope and you say something The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope but also appertained to the other Patriarckes and Metropolitanes yea to the Emperors Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus say not a word of the Popes supremacy although they were the Popes Legates And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches his meaning was that it was the first greatest and most famous Church Chalcedon that thereby you may proue that the chiefe honour is to be ascribed vnto the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is vnto Peter I graunt Campian that this sea in time past was had in the chiefe place of honour and I know very well that the chiefe dignitie was attributed to the Bishop of this sea the reason whereof you may easilie perceiue out of the selfe same Councell For this was not done by any commaundement of Christ that the Church of Rome should excell in dignitie all other Churches of the world but the Fathers testifie that the cause why that Citie was inuested with greater priuiledge than others was this because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire You may finde the words themselues in the same acte which you cite Act. 16. But if as you say the Church of Rome ought to haue the preheminence aboue all other Churches in the world in diuine authoritie what then ment the Chalcedonian Fathers to affirme that there were some prerogatiues graunted vnto that Church for this cause alone in that Rome was the head of the Empire and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that Citie which was the Empresse of the world was worthie of some more honour than others And this honour to speake of was onely this that the Bishop of Rome should haue the preheminence of place in Councels the prioritie of speech in deliuering his opinion and the precedence in rancke and place And thus neither doe we our selues now much enuie this honour to the Romane Bishop but that if so it please him he may enioy it so that he doe not because he hath the chiefe place imperiouslie tyranize ouer his brethren as he hath done for many ages and perswadeth himselfe that he may doe it lawfully But seeing it pleaseth you to obiect vnto vs the CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon that you may challenge the chiefe honor as due to your Bishop of the chiefe Sea before I proceed further I would gladly you should resolue me in this question why the f DVR This was not the iudgement of the whole CouÌ„cell but of certeine men Neither did the Constantinopolitanes require that their Sea should be of equall authority with the Sea of Rome but that it should haue the like soueraignty in Ecclesiasticall matters and obtainâ— the next place to it WHIT. pag. 306. This was the iudgment of the whole Councell except the Popes owne Legates Paschasinus Bonefacius and Lucentius who in vaine opposed for the decree runneth thus These things we all say these things please vs all And contrary to your assertion these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equall priuiledge with the Bishop of Rome which equality of priuiledges cannot stand with the vnequality of authority Neither did prioritie of place proue that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authoritie sâ—â—ing this was only for orders sake otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of ConstaÌ„tinople should haue had the like authority ouer the Bishop of Alexandriâ— because he sate aboue him Fathers of this Councell made the Sea of Constantinople equall to the Sea of Rome for so they decree and diffinitiuely determine that seeing great priuiledges were graunted to the Church of Rome in respect of the Empire of the citie they thought it a matter of great equity that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate should enioy the same priuiledges which old Rome had done And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equall yet he could not by his best meanes effect his desire but that the decree of the Councell preuailed which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome And therefore me thinkes you haue but ill defended the honor and dignity of your Bishop when you alleadge the decree of that Councell Moreouer the Councell of g DVR The filth Canon of the Councell of Constantinople ascribed greater honor to the Romane Sea then to any other WHIT. pag. 311. This honor was only of precedence and place and not of authority as plainly appeareth in the words of the Councell it selfâ— Chap. â—8 and in that the like prerogatiue was graunted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople and therefore by the like reason he might â—rrogâ—â—â— authority ouer the whole Church Constantinople which you also cite Canon 5. decreed no other thing for the Romane Sea then that the Bishop of Constantinople should haue the prerogatiue of honor next to the Bishop of Rome And this we also confesse that in times past the Prouinces were so distributed that Rome had the chiefe Constantinople the next and so euery one in their owne order But what maketh that to this cause which we haue now in hand For this is not the honor which the Bishop of Rome challengeth vnto himselfe this not the height of power and maiestie which he so often arrogateth Ephes Conc. in Epist ad Nestor The Councell also of h DVR
370. When did I euer grant Campian so much I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury if I should adiudge them for Campian who are so farre different from him And for your kindred with them it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children for if you were the children of the Fathers you would hold the faith of the Fathers For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses because they sate in Moses chaire Neither are they the children of the Saints who hold the places of the Saints as Hierome Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter as Ambrose neither ought faith to be tried by persons but persons by saith as Tertullian hath written We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen and one teacher which is Christ And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers why doe you forsake many of their opinions therefore are these Fathers wholie on your side what is this else but dotage and to speake without witte or feare Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell Ambrose whether any euer said it or no I neuer knew neither is it greatly materiall the best most righteous men may sometimes be so farre bewitched as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth and you doe too openly bewray your malice by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction though at the first they seeme odious Certeinly I haue read many Papists and heard of some all passing shamelesse and malepere but more impudent then your selfe in all my life did I neuer know any There is no end of your lying you feare no mens censure there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye He you say hath written that Hierome is as surely damned as the diuell because he was iniurious to the Apostles a blasphemous a wicked and an vngodly man That Beza affirmeth not these things I protest and aâ—ow let any man that will see the place if it be otherwise let me be accounted very infamous For as for those first words that Hierome was damned aswell aâ— the diuell either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place as all the rest are or altogether forged as the most In the place alledged there is no such thing Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy I will set downe Beza his owne words that all men may know your impudency Euen Hierome Beza in annot noui Testam in Act. Apost cap. 23. saith Beza if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him is not only iniurious to the Apostle in that hee findeth want of moderation in this speech wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection Thus far Beza the matter of his complaint is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest in which Hierome as Erasmus testifieth in his Dialogues against Pelagius findeth some want of moderatioÌ„ not only so but euen in Christ himself he looketh for some imperfection of piety which reports of Hierome if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth why might not Beza iustly esteeme him in the one iniurious to the Apostle in the other so blasphemous against Christ For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest he should shew too much spleene or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ theÌ„ that the grace wherewith he was indued was imperfect But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes in wresting the Scriptures wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures or they are so weake and easie of themselues as they may be any way turned And truly he must be very desperate that should defend Hieromes interpretations Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin then of a thousand Augustines Luther is not moued though a thousand Austens Cyprians Churches be against him The answere is ready whosoeuer speaketh truth in that respect is more to be esteemed then a great multitude that could not discerne the truth They therfore that haue obserued the errors of the Fathers either those you haue named or the rest which heere also you recken vp Optatus Athanasius Hilarie Cyrill Epiphanius Basil Vincentius Fulgentius Lee and Gregory of Rome and haue admonished the Readers of them are so farre from malepertnes herein as that coÌ„trary they haue performed a work for the Church needfull profitable and acceptable to all good and godly men For as the true expositions of Scriptures are to bee expounded to the Churches so are the contrary to bee reiected Hierom. Paul August Hierome saith well it is the worst kind of teaching to depraue sentences of Scripture and to draw them perforce to serue our turnes Wherefore we professe with Augustine All writers and their sayings must bee i DVR That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks but by lawfull Pastors and doctors WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you is it because they are Monkes I thinke not or because they haue departed froÌ„ you That is the matter as it none might touch reade examine the scriptures but those who haue plight their troth to you neuer to assent to the Scriptures though they directly coÌ„tradict popish doctrin we would willingly harkeÌ„ to lawfull Pastors examining interpreting the Scriptures such as you haue none Because with you examinatioÌ„s must not be made by the rule of the scriptures but after the wil of the Pope and all your Pastors haue tyed theÌ„selues to the iudgemeÌ„t of the Romish Antichrist that that which they see they wil not see if it displease the Pope by whose spirit they are guided iudged according to the holy Scriptures the authority wherof is more excellent then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers but I follow those that come nearest vnto the Scriptures and when the Scripture it selfe is manifest I embrace it before them all Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers and examine them by the light of Scriptures we do here nothing vnwonted nothing boldly or arrogantly but you haue alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures as Tertullian speaketh Tertul. de Resurrect and therefore do so diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers that you may alwaies haue some place of refuge For seeing Scriptures faile you what remaineth but that you seeke aide from any euen the meanest But you tell vs why we do so much anoid the Fathers I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures For say you they that cannot away with set times of Fasting must needs be
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
new Sacraments new sacrifice and new doctrine of religion There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke neither abroad nor at home which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter though it had been neuer so slenderly Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity and the life of memory do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme that that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church then are all the Historiographers on our part and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous and such as can make no man afraid except it bee first granted that all Christians throughout euery age haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the seauenth Reason which is the Historie NOw you call vs to Historie the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie their names you set downe and like dumbe showes you carry them in great pompe as though Campian the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie What insolent new kind of Logicke is this to recken vp the Historians of the whole world and of particular countries and then conclude they are your owne Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon shall by and by become yours we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs many moe and more waightie testimonies they haue against you and such as giue you a deadlie wound else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie and diligentlie penning them exactlie and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times neither would wee haue published them in the world if they were so contrarie vnto vs as you surmise for who haue taken more paines to finde out or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories then our men without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories wee condiscend yet with this caution that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done but haue an eye to that which was then performed and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension rather than imitation and for the most part it happens that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ and euer the later writer the more corrupt But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions and very peruersly you slaunder vs that because wee doe not allowe all wee refuse all They that reforme what is amisse doe not blame the rest that is not faultie Striue while you list Campian and crie out of mazes and labyrinths at length will you nill you by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures And herein Campian you very much a DVR And vvhy may not Campian trumph for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies and yet you cannot tell vvhen one of them euer began in vvhat Popes time by vvhat meanes hovv it increased in the Church WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons not raylings But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt but being so manifest as it is what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning what I pray if you see a man sicke of the pestilence a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse a house ruinous and readie to fall a shippe sincking will you deny all these vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke the meanes how the city grew corrupt who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous and in vvhat daâ—e the shippe began first to leake And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this But doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred see a fevv of them Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor after him Zozimus Boniface Celestiue and theâ— successura Pope Syricius first foâ—bad Priests marriages The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images Pope Nicolas the second first taught the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled broken and eaten Pope Jnnocent the third first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation Boniface the third that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth The Florentine Councell that the Pope was aboue Councels Jnnocent the third brought in auricular confession If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more triumph when you demaund at what time vnder what Bishop by what way and proceeding was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome and the whole world and doe not doubt but that if any change and declining had been many writers would haue made mention of it or diuers or one at the least It is hard for vs to answere at what time neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees and by leisure to ripenes the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after This is manifest in such things as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie vntill they come to perfection you cannot deny but there was a great alteration of Religion in the Church of b DVR It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves for Philastrius Epiphanius Iosephus haue vvritten of them WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten Ierusalem what then was the change all at once shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church what time what way who
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
there can be any grace more ancient than faith But say you how can they beleeue who doe not yet vnderstand whether they liue or no and do they therfore not liue because they vnderstand not that they liue It is absurd Wherefore if they liue although they doe not vnderstand they do so a DVR But speake plainly if Infants haue no faith your nevv Euangelicall doctrine teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend vpon the faith of the receiuers must vanish WHIT. pag. 681. I do no thinke that Infants do beleeue there being neither reason nor Scripture for it And I answere that is not our doctrine you faine to bee Wee say that to men of yeares without saith it is a Sacrament but not a sauing Sacrament to children of beleeuing patents though they cannot for their yeares beleeue yet it is a sauing Sacrament as Circumcision was to the Infants of the Iewes For wee doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerfull vnto them after a hidden and vvonderfull manner As in the examples of Iacob Ieremie Iohn Baptist and others happily also they doe beleeue albeit they perceiue not that they beleeue That is hard say you bee it so Nor doe I speake these things as if I were wholy of that mind but to the end I may fish out your mind which our Vniuersity mâ—n doubtles make great account of But let vs heare Luthers medicine It is better saith he to omit it because except the Infant beleeue he is washed â—eâ—er a whit But this medicine came out of your shop not out of Luthers And indeed you haue offred vs many such like medicines very vnsauourie and ill fauouredly seasoned so that all your confections seeme to be corrupt But Luther did neuer perswade that Baptisme should be omitted he was alwaies earnest on that part that Baptisme should be giuen to Infants and therefore you are so much the more vniust in this place in that you would marre Luthers opinion with your medley For these things are so alledged by you as if Luther said it were better to omit Baptisme Therfore let vs heare Luther himself and let Campians medicine alone And yet saith he we deny not that Infants are to be baptised Luther aduers Cocâ—laeum nor do we anow that they receiue Baptisme without faith but wee say that at Baptisme they do beleeue by the power of the Word He addeth Or otherwise there would bee meere and intolerable lies when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do beleeue as intending not to baptise vnlesse it be answered in the childâ— stead I beleeue Wherfore doth the Minister aske whether he do beleeue if iâ— be a certaine thing that they do not beleeue as Cocleus maintaineth Then he concludeth thus But we hold that Infants are not to be Baptised â—f it be true that they in Baptisme do not beleeue Luther then maintaineth and determineth that little children do beleeue and he reproueth the Papists because they teach things contrary each to other while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet to the end he may be baptised they require faith of him Who seeth not to what these things may be referred so that hee must needs bee a most malicious man who maketh Luther in these words a perswader of so wicked an opinion And these things doe they speake say you being doubâ—full in their own mind what to maintaine positiuely Howsoeuer some doe doubt of the faith of infants yet wee all determine cleerely and positiuely that they are to be baptised Therfore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentanâ— dayes-man who was alwayes more enclining to your side than to ours But why doe you obiect the Anabaptists to vs who hate vs much more eagerly than you and not without cause b DVR I knovv you doe fight hotly against the Anabaptists but vvith vvhat vveapons Caluin vvas glad to flie to the Tradition of the Church for be brought no place of Scripture against them neither could be bring any WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures or more for the aduantage of Anabaptists then that this their heresie cannot be coÌ„futed by Scripture But are you ignorant that Caluin vsed Scripture to refell this And yet he produceth these places Gen. 17.4 Matth. 19.13 28.19 which sufficiently ouerthrow the Anabaptists And in the place you alleadge hee rather renounceth Traditions then flieth to them for any defence Jast lib. 4 cap. 16. sect 8. for we haue both coÌ„uicted them for heretikes by our arguments and also haue expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths who if they dwelt not with you could find no place to remaine in through the Christian world You passe ouer the rest of the Sacraments which I acknowledge to bee none at all nor doe I vnderstand which is that beast of many heads whereof you make mention vnlesse perhaps you meane that threeheaded beast of which Iohn writeth many things in the Reuelation Hitherto Campian Of Manners you haue examined certaine opinions and positions of our men in all which you haue found as yet neuer a Paradoxe For either the things that you obiect are such as that nothing can be truer then they or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a peruerse meaning But now as if you were some new Censurer and Master of the auncient discipline and seuerity you make search into our manners not I thinke to make them better but to make them seeme much worse than they be Although he that reproueth the manners of other it were meet that he should bee without fault And is there so great a change made of Rome vpon the sodaine is their life now such are their manners begunne to bee so goodly that you being returned theÌ„ce a Frier dare striue with vs about vertue shamefastnes and honâ—stie howsoeuer there be here many things done which ought not to be yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licenciousnes of sinnes in England as you your selfe haue seene at Rome the very towre of your religion and kingdome all men will iudge you to bee too too impudent Wherefore then doe you propose to vs those peeces of faults in Luther seeing among you not only some fragments of vices but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainely seene surely as long as those publike stewes and dens of whoores stand still in Rome you could scarce honestly make mention of manners But what are these peeces of faults in Luther Is it for that you reproue some crime in his life but that you neither can do nor go about to doe You obiect certaine sayings caught out of his bookes and as you are wont torne from the rest of the body of the sentence which seeme presently as soone as they bee propounded by you to make shew of
also happily at thy commaund though not to be drawne with thy hand speaking to the Pope WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme buâ— yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard which also Iohannes a Capistrano of the Pope and Councels p 77. and others of them haue handled and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power Pope must beare both swords The seruant is not aboue his master therefore i DVR What Catholike euer taught or wrote thus howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said The chiefe seate is iudged of no man WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith Dist 40. si Pâ—pa The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery the Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoeuer it teacheth and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer â—e doth The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope who had denied Christ and committed Idolatrie and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes so that in citing that authoritie you contradict both your selfe and your lawes it is lawfull for no man to accuse or reproue the Pope Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile him k DVR Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile by force vvherof the Pope cannot erre as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar nor doth it follow Peters faith failed not therefore no Popes faith hath failed who are his successors for Popes haue done and may fall into heresies as you will confesse and may erre in faith saith Pope Boniface Dâ—st 40. Papa which he could not do it this argument of yours vvere true Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles and the whole Church shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter If it be not then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters which I suppose you will not affirme And Augustine and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do you abuse their names therefore the Pope cannot erre The vulgar people commeth seldome and negligently to the Lords Supper l DVR If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie or the Masse you vvould confesse this argument to be good WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie who speaketh of the prayers of the godly as Tertullian Eusebius and Jerome expound him and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed as you call it the peoples negligence is no sufficient cause to make it priuate and yet to profit the people yea though they be absent you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so and say it is inough when it is in publike it the Priest handle it and heare it and beleeue it alone yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing may be saued by it therefore the Priest may celebrate priuate Masse Christ admitted onlie his Apostles to Suppe therefore Priests alone must m DVR The people also receiue the vvhole Sacrament vnder one kind WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so as though one part of a thing were the vvhole or as if Christ appointing both bread and wine ordained more then a whole Sacrament that Pope was wiser vvhich said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup as you doâ— De concil dist 2. cap. Comperimus Let them either receiue the vvhole Sacrament or refuse all DVR Christs vvords Drinke yee all of this proue nâ—t that all Christians must doe so WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it as those vvords take eate doe proue that all must eate and you may as vvell keepe both the elements from the people as one contrarie to S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.23 DVR The Passeouer might be eaten vvithout vvine WHIT. pag. 756. It might because God had not commaunded vvine but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper 1. Cor. 11.45 DVR The common people are aâ—t bound to drinke of the Cap for S. Paul saith As oft as ye drinke it to signifie they were not commanded so to doe WHIT. So he saith of the bread also As of as yee eate 1. Cor. 11.26 so that by your argument neither is the bread commanded them receiue the Sacrament the people ought to bee contented only with one part The title which Pilate fastned vpon the Crosse was written in Hebrew Greeke Latine therfore n DVR No Catholike doth so reason we say that title had in it a mysterie and Augustine proueth by it that the vvord coessentâ—all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be vsed in the Creede WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus as all men knovve which read their writings though you bee ashamed of it Tell vs what mysterie you meane if it bee worth the labour as for Augustine hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause yet you blush not to quote him prayers must bee read in the Churches in no language but either Hebrew or Greeke or Latine Harding That which is holy must not be giuen to dogges o DVR VVe say not that all but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that vvisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people and that they vvhich shevv themselues dogges and hogges must be barred from the Scriptures but this is nothing to the present question vvhether this reason be good vvhich Papists sometimes vse and vvhich here you should haue spoken to and not thus vvander therfore the vulgar people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures This is my bodie therefore the p DVR Christ said it vvay his bodie WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both to vvit of the bread vvith the mouth and of his bodie by faith Againe if that vvhich vvas in Christs hands vvere his reall body vvhen he said so then vvas transubstantiation before vvhich you deny and then he had tvvo bodies but if it vvere bread then is there a metonymie in his vvords as vvee truly say bread is turned into Christs bodie Fall downe before his footestoole q DVR Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture WHIT p. 761. That is false they teach onely that vve must vvorship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament not the myâ—teries and Sacrament themselues therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped God is no respecter of persons Pighius r DVR That vvas Pighius his error but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in vvords
is no more our fault then yours the controuersie is about the word of God You contend that you haue it I contrariwise defend that we haue it if you like not my iudgement why may not I dislike yours But you say we expound the word c DVR You doe so for you proue the sense of Scripture vvhich you alleage neither by authoritie of Fathers nor by decrees of Councels nor by the rule of faith that is the common vse and custome of Christians WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures as the Fathers themselues confesse and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places and such like meanes and so we proue the true sense of them The Fathers expositions often erre and varie one from another as their writings witnesse and you vvill confesse the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures as for the vse and customs of the people it is no rule of faith at all nor must vvee expound the Scriptures thereby amisse I againe auouch that it is false which you say Whither are you now come at last go one foote further forward if you can Why say you I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres This is nought else but a friuolous a foolish and an insolent bragge You haue not I say you haue not Campian You are euer heere deceiued and turne round againe as it were into a circle and are faultie in that same very thing for which you reprooue vs. Touching the Fathers I haue answered you alreadie In the questions of greatest waight they are wholly on our d DVR Jf it vvere so you vvould not extenuate their authoritie nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due but rely more vpon the Scriptures which are infallibly true you are driuen from the Scriptures and rake vp euen out of the Fathers ouersights whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies because wee say with Augustine that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures side in those of smaller moment their iudgemeÌ„ts are diuers and they make for you in very few and those of least importance How much better would it stand with wisedome that as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels neither you should obiect Ierome against me nor I Augustine against you Aug. contra Maximian lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side but that matter might be tried with matter cause with cause and reason with reason by the authority of the Scriptures Aug. Epist 111. ad Fortunatian For indeed as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs we must not haue any mens disputations howsoeuer otherwise they be meÌ„ of sound iudgement and worthie praise in like estimation as the e DVR No Catholike euer esteemed any mans vvittings to be compared vvith the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with but also preferre them before the Scriptures for they vvill not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures but by the Fathers and they sooner allovv a sentence of one Father than many Scriptures so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas Canonicall Scriptures Such an vnderstander saith he am I in reading other mens writings such would I haue other men to be of mine And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art learne of him what manner argumeÌ„ts may be taken out of the Fathers writings Diuinity or holy learning saith he vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily but it vseth the authorities of other f DVR VVe say not that the iudgement of one or tvvo of the Fathers but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you WHIT. 833.835 Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men opposing onely Scriptures vnto them so that apparantly they taught that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments vvhich no consent of men though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute Further I say pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs yea that all the auncient Fathers doe together with vs vvith one voyce condemne your halfe Communion Transubstantiation reall presence sole Communion bread-vvorshipping externall reall sacrifice seruice in strange language your Popes absolute iurisdiction and many other such like Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably These forsooth ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright nor greatly perplex you EDMVND CAMPIAN The tenth Reason which is all manner of Witnesses THis shall be to you a direct path so that the simplest that bee neede not wander out of it For who is Esay 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people so senselesse so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health that cannot see if he looke but a little about him the path of the Church so plainely trodden that cannot keepe it if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches and places that cannot be passed These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied and therefore most manifest vnto you If you will * Campian bringeth nothing in this place but a continuall begging of the question let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be All things do minister matter fit for our purpose Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination there may we finde such as through martyrdome Coelites are as ruddie as the red a August Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly There may we see I say those * Of which not one was a Papist three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit Poâ—â— Rom. Rome which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors There may wee see
is my follie which was not the follie of Eusebius and Sozomen for Eusebius who was present at the same Synod writeth that Constantine in the first rancke sate downe in a golden chaire And Sozomen saith there was a throne prepared for him and that a great one and aboue all the other place in the Councell it skilleth not greatly for what if he chose the lowest seate amongst the Bishops Euseb lib. 3. de vita Constant Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 19. but you thinke he did it rather forced by necessary dutie then moued by voluntarie humilitie marke then what Eusebius writes When he was come to the chiefe place he stood vp in the middest of the assemblie and there when a little seate made of gold was brought for him he sate downe Heere you see that Constantine sate in the highest place a seate of gold which was the chiefest and aboue all the rest as Zâ—zomen relates But these your proofes are passing strange they strengthen the cause of your Pope excellently well Now you passe forward vnto the Turks Turkes wherein you do too manifestly bewray your ignorance in historie For the Turkish gouernement neuer lesse preuailed then since Luther began to publish the Gospell Before he did ouer-run and like a troublous sea breake into all Countries with a furious and vnresisted violence But since Luther like a good husbandman began to sow the seed of the Gospell this raging sea hath as it were retired or stood still and conteined it selfe within his owne bounds Vicuna was kept by the Lutheranes and assaulted by Solyman but he returned with losse and with shame and prooue if you can that euer the Christians became weake or the Turks stronger by their default The Letters which you pretend as written from Solyman to Luther might with better reason haue bin sent to the Pope for the Turks are beholding to none more then your Pope as they well know and vnlesse they will be vnthankfull they will euer acknowledge it For if as our Sauiour Christ saith a kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand then the breaking of the strength of the Empire and weakning the power of Christians and consequently strengthning the Turks all must be imputed to him which rent and diuided the Romane and Christian Empires and of one kingdome made two As long as the prouinces and dominions of the Empire were vnited we were strong ynough against the Turks but after Pope Leo the 3. diuided the Empire the Emperour of Constantinople which before had much ado to resist the Turke was now no longer able to sustaine the burthen wanting the greatest part of his Empire There is then no reason why the Turke should thanke Luther but the Pope rather as he hath good cause It were too long to rehearse all the intercourse which hath passed betwixt the Pope and the Turke let vs now heare the conclusion They are say you onely professed enemies to vs. Certainely they haue infested them of the Greeke church more then the Latine So that if they be the best Christians that are most persecuted by the Turks the Grecians must goe before you Whereas you adde something of Altars and Images know you that the Idolatry of your Church is so great that the Turks themselues are ashamed and therefore they breake and euill intreate your Images and Idols wheresoeuer they find them Now you come to Hereticks the lees bellowes Heretikes and fewell of hell fire As long as there wants no Papists this fire will want no fewell The first you meete with is Simon Magus Indeed your Church is something more indebted to this Simon then the other but what of him He denied freewill vnto man and bragged of faith alone Where finde you that tell vs Campian for this is not affirmed by Ireneus or Clemens in the places alleaged he thought that all things came to passe by destinie and an ineuitable necessitie whereby he vtterly abolished mans freewill x DVR If you be a Caluinist then this must needs be your doctrine when as Caluin had so taken avvay all freedome that he hath brought a necessitie greater then Stoickes fate WHIT. pag. 882. I am a Christian you a Iesuite Caluin as you wel know neuer tooke away the freedome of will vnlesse you reason thus the will of man is not free in good things before it be regenerate by the spirit of God therfore there is no freedome of the will at all which verily hath no strength of consequent in it We hold no such opinion Neither did he boast of sole faith as you say but this was his opinion that from the doctrine of Iustification by grace and faith he let loose the raines to all impietie dishonestie where do we defend any such things Nouatianus would himselfe be Bishop of Rome and opposed himselfe to Cornelius the lawfull Bishop hoping by force to get the Bishoprick What is this to vs But he was an enemie to the two Sacraments of penance and extreme vnction y DVR It was not for this but because he tooke away the Sacrament of Penance in vvhich Priests do pardon sinne WHIT. pag. 882. Whether Penance was a Sacrament or no was not the thing in question betwixt Nouatus and the Catholikes but whether there was any place for repentance left vnto those that did sinne that the Minister might assure theÌ„ of remission of sins if they repeÌ„ted we grant that this power is giueÌ„ to the Ministers of the Gospell therefore we are far from the error of Nouatus He denied pardon and repentance to them that fell in persecution Herein he was an enemie of repentance Our case in farre different which exclude no true penitent from hope of pardon Manos wholie reiected baptisme as vnprofiâ—able and not necessarie Do we affirme any such thing We z DVR You take from Baptisme all power to remit sinnes and confirre grace as the Manicâ—es doe And yee Caluinists deny that the deed done doth confirre grace to them vvho beleeue WHIT. pag. 883. We beleeue and teach that in Baptisme sins are forgiuen which the Manichies vsually deny Therefore we differ much from them And as for the inuention of the deed done we reiect it euen in those who are indued with faith for what neede haue wee of any such inuention that grace is conferred and giueâ— by the deed done if faith be not wanting denie indeed that baptisme confers grace to the vnbeleeuer by the worke wrought he denied it to be profitable at all are we like him Austen and Epiphanius accompt Aerius for an Heretick so did few of the auncient Fathers besides these And if to condemne praiers for the dead Hierou ad Euag. in 1. Tit. and make equall a Priest with a Bishop be hereticall what shall be Catholick Hierome was altogether of Aerius his mind about equalitie of Priests for he determines them to be equall with Bishops by Gods law This was not that Aerius Socrat. lib.
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.