is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
wee must tell him that where hee talketh of fiue hundred traytors that maintaine the present ecclesiasticall gouernement hee is out of reason and account and doeth nothing but rayle as well beseemeth his libelling humour The state and iurisdiction of bishops nowe in England dependeth externally on the Prince to him they are subiect and from him they receiue lawe finally they thinke it vnlawfull to rebell against him condemning all rebellious practises to pull downe his authoritie and to bring them vnder but the proud and insolent Consistory claymeth power aboue princes and rendreth in Ecclesiasticall matters account to none but God as they professe the same acknowledgeth it felse subiect to none and prescribeth lawes to Princes yea teacheth and putteth in practise rebellion against them and therefore when there is speach of loyaltie and obedience let the Libeller henceforth take heede how he compareth the most factious and suspicious gouernment to Princes that euer was to our ecclesiasticall gouernours which in their doctrine and life cannot bee noted of any disloyaltie And finally let him holde his peace and thanke God for the princes clemencie For it is not the innocencie of his Clients nor the eloquence of the aduocate that can cleare the disciplinarians from faction In such bad causes repentance and submission is best defence the next is silence And therefore wisely did he passe ouer that offence for which Iohn Vdall was conuicted and condemned Onely this fault hee committeth herein that forgetting howe before hee had promised to answere for him now hee leaueth him to answere for himselfe and like a man that had lost both memorie and wit runneth out into an idle discourse of othes Ex Officio and an inuectiue against Iudges and furiously rayling at the State calleth such as speake in defence of it Traitors and Rebels To terrifie the Iudges hee cyteth certaine Textes of scriptures ill fitting his purpose For neither as hee sayeth are his consortes Saintes nor doe they suffer for holinesse nor are they put to death howsoeuer they deserue it That sentence of 1 Iames 1. Iames rather belongeth to them If any man deemeth himselfe to be religious and refaineth not his tongue but seduceth his hart his religion is in vayne or that rather Woe bee to 2 Matth. 23. you Scribes and Pharises ye hypocrites yee are like to whited sepulchres faire without and within full of bones of dead men and all filthinesse And albeit Iohn Vdall had the name vnwothy to be a Preacher yet neuer any worse deserued it being euery way vnsufficient nor tooke a more factious course This fellowe braggeth hee was no murtherer yet if hee had proceeded further I knowe what woulde haue followed So arrogant hee is that hee imagineth all fooles but such as like his fancies But if the 3 Pag. 49. Iudges haue so little skill in condemning such a Minister as Iohn Vdall why doth not this great Clarke shewe it this is impudencie to condemne such reuerend learned men of ignorance and to shewe no reason Besides this in lawe there ought to be no respect of persons Howe then can there bee such difference betwixt ministers and others if ministers offend as well as others Either this man meaneth to challenge immunitie or els hee meaneth if euer he bee a Iudge to respect persons Some haue painted Iustice blinde but this man woulde haue them iudge with spectacles His accusation against such as speake in defence of the state will neuer be prooued he racketh and teareth their sayings as a man lying without conscience and shame yet will they not reach to his purpose Concerning master Dalton whom he accuseth as the Bishops factor it is an easie matter to answere hee hath more honestie learning and lawe then is to be found in all the Puritanes distempered braynes The cause he defended was not the Bishops but of religion learning and the Church Hee chargeth the Bishops that they write in a certaine 1 Admon a g. M. M. p. 252. booke that it is not lawfull to bestowe such liuings vpon laye men as are appoynted by lawe to preachers of the word But neither doe the Bishops say it nor is that booke that is quoted the Bishops nor is it likely that so graue men had so litle to doe as to busie themselues with the answering of such a vaine Libell as Martin and Martins barking sonnes But whose-soeuer the saying is it is iustifiable for if the liuings bee appoynted by lawe to preachers what law is it to infringe law that the Queene doeth keepe the temporalties of Bishops in her hands during the vacation is by law not against law So likewise it is lawfull to holde some Ecclesiasticall liuings that be appropried As for Wiclefs words against the excesse of his times they are euill extended against the want of ours and are voyde of reason for what reason is it that for the default of one a succession should be spoyled as he would haue it But sayth hee who woulde not thinke the superfluities of Bishops liuing better bestowed vpon such a man as Sir Francis Walsingham that right honourable Chancellour and benefactor of the Church and Countrey then vpon any Bishop Wherein hee doeth wrong to the memory of that good knight and in needelesse discourse bringeth his name in question To his supposall I answere that there be very wise men that thinke the liuings of Bishops better as they are and I thinke hee would so say if hee were aliue and were asked the question for no man was more desirous then hee of true honor neyther is any thing more dishonourable then to rise by the spoyles of the Church that hee pretendeth to loue nor to take that to him selfe which was giuen to other vses Neyther doe wee reade of any that hath risen by the spoyles of the Church that hath long prospered or enioyed them nor haue the Papistes any thing to obiect against vs more then sacriledge and spoyle of the Church As for the superfluities of bishops there is order taken Take foure of the best bishops in England and there will bee found eight knights euery one whereof shall farre ouermatch them in reuenues Take eight bishops next in liuing to the greatest and there will bee found two hundreth esquires euery of which shall ouerpasse them diuers yeomen clownes and marchantes doe farre excell the rest Why then should any enuie to men of learning and qualitie the estate and liuing of knights esquires yeomen and clownes It will bee sayde these haue it by inheritance but why should it not as well be lawfull to haue it and winne it by industrie as by inheritance But I am glad I know why all this while the petitioner barketh so loude Hee woulde haue great men fall to spoyling that hee might light vpon some reuersion or like a dogge gather vp crummes vnder the table when men shall ryot with Churches rapines well for his good will when churches come to be spoyled let him out
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
taketh not thereby away apostolical superiority ouer ministers as these manglers of scriptures doe that to build vp one seate of the consistorie haue hewen diuerse scriptures in pieces and racked mens wordes against their meaning neyther in word nor conceit did he euer oppugne the present gouernment Bishop Elmar sometime before hee came abroad into the world supposed the liuings of bishops to bee too great hee knew not then the malice of men nor the state of things now he confesseth therein his ouersight is it not lawfull for him to amend his error especially seeing some men thinke it lawful from knowledge to fall into puritanisme and from a right course to run into error yet do we not vse the benefit of their doubling let them double as much as they wil so they double not with God The like is to be said of bishop Bollingham who if hee erred in speaking against bishops Rochets for against the state I see not where he speaketh yet did hee the same away by repentance but we stand not on mens opinions nor pamphlets nor priuate writings we would once the names of Caluin and Beza and others were laid aside and the cause were examined by scripture and antiquitie which is not partial this T. Cartw. did once professe but now he hath forgotten himselfe would he come backe againe to his old hint he should soone see his owne error if he striue against himselfe no maruell it is if hee striue with others but if he come abroad he must come better furnished with scriptures and reasons Not content to alledge some the libeller ere he passe will needes belye others and among them 1 in his defence of the princes supremacie Doctor Bridges it may bee the consistorie hath giuen him a dispensation to lye for he saith that Doctor Bridges doth iustifie Aerius opinion whereas contrariwise hee saith that albeit Hierome and others did hold that a bishop and priest was one yet was no Aerian whereby it appeareth that hee confesseth Aerius to bee an heretike and denieth others to be Aerians He shamefully likewise belyeth my lorde of Canterburie 2 Pag. 654. lin 54. whom he falsely quoteth maketh to confesse elders for such elders as these men would haue neuer entred into his cōceit only he confesseth that there were ministers in the beginning of the Church that liued in community with bishops which now that the number of Christians is so encreased were not requisite for then should there be infinite nonresidents that he neuer imagined there ought to be elders of the Geneuian making his reasons brought against them doe declare Neyther did the author of the admonition made against the drunken surfet of Martins puritanisme set downe any wordes that import that there was an Eldership vnder the lawe as the libeller affirmeth the wordes are contrary why then should hee imagine that the authors meaning was contrary to his wordes it was saith hee first so set downe admit it were must all compositers errors bee allowed for text I perceiue these fellowes are angrie when a man woulde correct a fault and therefore I feare hee will not amende his fault in lying but I haue heard saith hee that that booke was subscribed by the bishop of Canterburie Lincolne and London as if any thing were more common then vntrueth in the mouthes of puritanes and therefore no maruell if hee haue heard a leasing The author of the remonstrance without any supposall saith plainely Pag. 166. that there neuer were any Church consistorie and therefore what fondnesse is it to suppose him to say that which hee denieth but admitte hee shoulde say if it were in the lawe and Gospell that it were to bee continued yet doth it not followe that it was in the lawe or after for of supposals no direct assertion can bee made vnlesse that which is supposed bee graunted neyther can any man enforce any such conclusion as the libeller imagineth nay hee shall sooner presse the little wit hee hath out of his braynes then gayne such a conclusion for the assumption viz. that the Geneuian Aldermanshippe began vnder the lawe and was practised vnder thè Gospell is but a franticke conceyte in this discrasied mans brayne neyther my lorde of Canterburie sayth it nor any of our side that I knowe Why doeth not the man therefore proue it the reason is euident for that vntrueth cannot be proued let him therefore presse what he can out of the assertions aforesaid he shal sooner wring vergis out of a flint then wring his Consistorie out of scriptures But saith he one Mathew Sutcliffe controlleth both whereunto if he durst haue set to his name I might haue answered that one W. St. and his promptors are deceiued Now I must answere that one certaine worthlesse libeller mistaketh for neither is it true which he auoweth That I protest there was neuer any such gouernement by elders vnder the Gospel yea and such arguments haue I set downe that Th. Cartwr and all the faction haue taken terme to answere neither doe I controwle others that haue trauailed before me in the same argument for all of vs agree that there was neuer any Geneuian Eldership in the world before the erection of it at Geneua and that the Eldership that was in time past was composed of Bishops or of Priestes assistant to the Bishops which were Ministers of the word and sacraments and such as in part in our cathedrall Churches yet continue The third vntrueth is That he saith I suppose if there were Elders vnder the Gospel they were not now necessarie Pag. 213. which the author of the remonstrance affirmeth For I doe not speake of Elders but generally of gouernement conclude most strongly against the platformers That they may not haue their discipline and why forsooth because first it was neuer found in scriptures nor practise and secondly because diuers orders are founde in scripture for externall gouernement which now are out of vse so that both the antecedent being false and consequent nought it is not possible the conclusion should be good but what should I talke of antecedent and consequent with this companion that vnderstandeth neither Logicke nor termes of reason The fourth lye is that I deface forreine Churches writing against the Eldership in Latine make the rent of our Church deeper For I speake in the defence of the state to salue those wounds which these fellowes haue made to pece the rents of our church I neuer speake of forreine churches but honorably neither am I curious in other mens states neither doe I deale with Beza but as with a graue and learned man in this point mistaken destitute in this cause both of wisedomect learning although I haue bene badly requited at his hands againe which course if Beza others would haue taken these contentions that haue troubled our Church woulde neuer haue growen to this height but they would be writing talking against vs yea censuring
vs with their consistoriall presumptiō and yet did we not deale against their churches For that I wrote against the presbyterie I did it in respect that the same was obtruded to our church by a certaine vnlearned bold Italian that I wrote in Latine the cause was the Italians and Bezaes dealing for their presbyterie in Latine and also to let others vnderstād that our cause is such as we are able well to defend against Beza and all consistorials whatsoeuer and therefore seeing we meane not to obtrude our gouernement to them and so professe in our bookes let thē keepe their consistorie to thēselues and make much of it that it fal not to the ground for it is in very weake case Bezaes simple discourse doth yeeld it no comfort If any doe come forth to reply I do protest it is he that maketh the stirre and not I. and therefore for cōmon ease it were best for al to keepe silence but if they meane to prate of the glory of the consistory which our platformers esteeme as an idoll they must expect an answere and let not Beza thinke that his fond disputes against vs in his late three halfe penie pamphlet shall passe for oracles To returne to the libeller I answere that neither is it true that we handle the matter doubtfully for we are all resolued in our positiōs against thē nor that they hold their opinions resolutely for neither concerning the institution partes authoritie nor office of their consistorie doe any two of them agree neither doth it seeme probable that euer they wil agree they are at such contention among themselues for neither doe they knowe what they would haue nor wherefore Secondly I say that this argument is most simple and mishapen for suppose that two or three should handle the cause of the Church simplie it were no reason for the ignorance and simple dealing of two or three that the Chuch should be ouerturned and that new lawes and lordings shoulde come in place yet this is his wise conclusion because all doe not agree in all pointes that the matter must be called in question and bishops be displaced that certaine coate cardes in short ierkins may come in place to rule all either by their diuine inspiration or else according as Th. Cartw. the oracle of discipline shall determine which reason if it were admitted then howsoeuer we reteine the present gouernement yet shall wee for euer be discharged of the consistorie the patrons whereof contrarie one another most absurdly in infinit places write most irresolutely and strangely Lastly to bring the ecclesiastical state into question He alledgeth first that our lawes expect a further reformation that such as haue written against papistes puritans haue found imperfectiōs in our gouernemēt Which if he meane in the frame of our discipline or in respect that we haue bishops or want consistories he is abused they neither expect such a reformatiō nor auow any such thing by a certaine statute of K. Henry 8 power was giuen to 32 persons to gather into one body such lawes ecclesiastical as were nether repugnant to the lawes of the realme nor prerogatiue royall That they had as the petitioner saith authoritie to correct good lawes or to make new lawes is the first vntrueth The second vn trueth is That D. Cranmer other learned men did collecte the lawes into one booke for the booke that came forth with the title of Correctio legum Angliae was gathered not by D. Cranmer but by D. Haddon and that very simply without iudgemēt insomuch as al men of iudgemēt disliked it afterward himselfe also was ashamed of it nay contrary to the authoritie giuen him by statute he tooke vpon him not to gather lawes together but to gather a packe of new fancies together and to make new lawes coontrarie to the Ecclesiasticall lawes of the realme yea contrarie to equitie and reason as I shall iustifie if any will challenge me for it The lawes of nursing of children and marriages will verifie all that I say yea and his owne testimonie giuen of it Last of all the lawe whereby this collection of lawes was authorised is now repealed and not necessarie For albeit all doe not yet some knowe what is lawe but suppose ecclesiastical lawes that are in force should begathered together doeth it therefore followe that ecclesiasticall lawes must be all changed howsoeuer it is let not the aldermen bragge of these lawes for therein the authoritie of Bishops is confirmed churchaldermen not so much as mentioned they must therefore looke in some other place for in this booke their Consistorial conceites are not to be found In the booke of Common prayer there is a Commination prescribed to be vsed vntil an order of discipline practised in the primitiue Church should be restored But what maketh that for the establishment of the consistoriall discipline which was neither in the primitie Church nor in the cogitation of the authors of that booke the meaning of the booke is onely that the commination there mentioned shoulde be vsed vntil such time as in the time of Lent offenders might be brought to humble themselues as they did in the primitiue Church and that more fauour might be giuen to the execution of ecclesiastical lawes which is that discipline which they desire these felowes withstand and therefore hereafter I thinke wil not call for discipline for if the same were once executed then would not euery contentious person degorge his malice against lawe nor libellers and scismatickes be suffered to declaime against the state nor euery vnlearned mate be suffered to preach false doctrine and reuell at all antiquitie Neither doeth it followe because in the ordination of Mininisters it is saide take thou authoritie to preach the worde of God that euery Minister is apointed a preacher and that none are to be appointed Ministers but such as can preach which is that they desire And this libeller affirmeth for the exception which doth abbridge the lawe is 1 This practise is condemned by the law inciuile est ff de legebus cautelously and malitiously left out wherein he sheweth that his cause cannot stand but by forging and forcing the wordes are Take thou authoritie to preach where thou shalt be so appointed These fellowes disdaine appointmēt would runne before they be sent but vnlesse many had more learning and discretion it were better that some of those that take on them to preach were set to reade and such as runne so fast were made to sit still In Flaunders according to the rules of this discipline they would needes at the first haue euery one to preach but when they sawe the great inconuenience that came of it they put them to reade Caluins homilies on Iob. but suppose that in the point of discipline of Lent or in the number and qualities of preachers we haue not that we desire doeth it therefore followe that the Ecclesiasticall state
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
which is sayde of a hundred thousande handes hee answereth that it is meant of a subscription to a supplication which if it were graunted yet woulde the same bee very strange if not rebellious for what is such a supplication but a coniuration or at least 1 Armatae preces armed prayers But saith hee Martin doeth not there exhort to rebellion neyther doe wee charge him with it but wee say that hee speaketh seditiously and that he insinuateth that puritans if they should not haue their supplication graunted would either haue gone away discontent or taken part with the enemie and that the packe of puritans entend rebellion for that appeareth First by confession of Martin that insinuateth they had many ready to maintayne that cause and next by those vagrant rogues that came downe into all shires with billes crauing subscription which is nothing but the beginning of a coniuration for neuer did so many ioyne but in rebellion nor can such a nomber confederate themselues without danger to the state And if the Prince were not exceeding clement she would teache them the payne of subscriptions and confederation for to obteyne alteration of State especially when Martin threatneth that so many would strike a great stroke which is very true for so many and lesse too being well armed and gouerned are able to fight with any prince in the worlde Neyther will it serue that hee sayeth that the speach is Tropologicall for it is rather Diabolicall and trayterous The wordes of 2 Vindiciae con tyrannos Iunius Brutus that for the eldership sayth it is lawfull to mooue stirres are disclaymed by the Libeller but litle knoweth he who is the authour of that booke for it was made eyther by Beza or Hotoman and conteyneth nothing but consistoriall doctrine Neyther doe I thinke that he will disclayme T. C. that meaneth to fight so stoutly that if euery hayre of his head were a life hee woulde afforde them all in defence of his platforme Nor of Goodman Gilby Whittingham and the Geneuians without whome this cause cannot stand Therefore if the Libeller renounce rebellion and the doctrine of it he must also renounce the nource of rebellion the Consistorie and all his deare darlinges vpon whose bare names as it were vpon emptie barrels hee buyldeth his consistoriall barriquades and bulwarkes Where they threaten troubles if they may not haue the discipline the Libeller answereth that thereby they meane scholasticall troubles while both partes write concerning discipline but that cannot be the meaning of the author for he meant troubles that would ensue and not which already were But the contention about discipline in writing before that time was at the hottest Neither is there any other sence to bee drawen out of the wordes but that great and bloody stirres would be about discipline if the same might not otherwise be obteined finally it is the common proceeding of the consistorie that without wracke and force did neuer enter either at Geneua or in France or Scotland Whereunto Th. C. in the conuenticle or synode in Warwickeshire as is supposed layde a good foundation for there the discipline was set downe there subscription and promise was made that all ministers should aduance it by all their power No doubt they meant as well force as fayre meanes for therein they haue neuer bene scrupulous Hee answereth also in defence of the Scottish ministers but he sayth nothing of the Roade of Ruthuen and Sterlinge and concealeth most dangerous matters wandring from the purpose in a generalitie of wordes Hee did not remember that 1 A noble precedent of consistoriall excommunication Galloway at Saint Iohnston cursed both the men that should take part with the King and their horses and speares and how Iames Gibson vsed the King very homely and how Iohn Cooper refused to obey the King And howe Andrewe Meluin vsed very tart speeches towarde him and yet obstinately refused to acknowledge him selfe bounde to answere his contempt these matters the petitioner eyther vnderstoode not or would not call to remembrance hee also seemeth to bee ignorant how vpon such like insolent behauiour the King tendring certaine articles to the Scottish Preachers as first that they should yeelde their obedience to the King secondly that they should not pretende Priuiledge thirdly that they should not meddle in matters of State fourthly that they should not publikely reuile his Maiestie that they neuer yeelded to subscribe A notorious argument of singuler insolencie in them if it bee as is reported and simplicitie in the petitioner that going about to cleare his cause giueth occasion of further matter against it Where wee alleadge that Brutus Iunius a Consistoriall writer or to speake more playnely Hotoman or Beza sayth that the people of themselues may set vp Gods seruice and abrogate superstition and that it is lawfull for the people by force of armes to resist the Prince if he hinder the buylding of the Church which these men take specially to consist in the eldership And where also wee set downe many trayterous speeches out of Goodman Gilby Martin T.C. and others the Libeller answereth first that these authors wrote against tyrants and enemies of religion as if the pretence of religon were sufficient to arme the subiects to depose the prince wherein is declared that these men accompting those that stop the eldership enemies of religiō hold that such princes as hinder the eldership may be deposed also which is an answere euill beseeming a man professing allegiance to her Maiestie and pretending to bee of the best sort of subiects Secondly hee saith that the same speeches are alledged by the Papistes to condemne our doctrine but that answere maketh much against the Puritans and not vs for wee condemne both that practise and that doctrine and those that haue giuen such a scandale to the Church They embrace it and therefore are condemned as perturbers of the State And albeit nowe they alter their hint and teache obedience changing faith with time yet that was their opinion once and I doubt not will bee as oft as time serueth Thirdly hee answereth that the doctrine of the consistorie dependeth not on two or three which we doe not affirme in this cause for we say that these opinions are generally imbraced of that faction and of the chiefest of them and that the same is so ioyned with the consistory that without the same it can not be mainteined for if the prince bee chiefe gouernour of the church the consistorie hath no place and if the consistory haue place away goeth the princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes Lastly he giueth out that our English bishops as well as the consistoriall faction haue rebelled against princes which answere first is not concludent for the offence of one is no protection for others secondly it is false The petitioner ought to haue shewed who these rebels be and where their rebellion is defended by bishops such as now we haue If he cannot shew them
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
barking curres as this which without reason baull at lawes and antiquitie and if they had might would bite also Article 36 There be many Churches in England that haue scarce had 12. sermons in 12. yeeres Answere The cause why in some places there are so fewe sermons preached is for that the liuing is appropried and that such as haue it haue no care of mens soules let the articulator therefore article against them and not impute their faultes to the cleargie that cannot doe withall if among the cleargie hee knoweth any that doe not their duetie or that preach not their sermons why doth he not name them that order may be taken that sermons may be had according to lawe If he can name none why doth he mention many And if there be any default herein why doth hee deface the state and not rather blame those greedie persons that by taking away the liuings of Churches are cause of this disorder Wherefore to answere him let him this vnderstand that there are mo learned Preachers and Sermons preached in England proportion for proportion then eyther in Fraunce or Scotland howsoeuer the same seeme to him to be refourmed Article 37 Erasmus paraphrasis should be had in all Churches Answere Accuse them that haue it not There is none more guilty then the brother-hoode of Puritans that condemne all good learning and care for none other bookes then the Geneua Bible Caluins institutions and Bezaes Comments excepting alwayes Caluins Commentaries on Iob and Martyrs common places in English Nor haue other cause to like of Erasmus paraphrasis but that now all their exercises bee nothing but light and fantasticall paraphrases except alwayes some heauie and malicious inuectiues Article 38 Ecclesiasticall persons shoulde not play at unlawfull games as Cardes Dice c. but they offende more then any other that pretend conformitie Answere I tolde you that this Reuellors purpose was rather to rayle then amend any matter Why doth he not name these gamesters and vnlawfull games and proue that such games as are vsed are vnlawfull nay when he hath proued what hee can I doe thinke that honest recreations that some ministers vse are more commendable then the sabothes exercises of most puritans Article 39 Non residents should distribute the 40. part of their liuing to the poore of the parish which they doe not Likewise they should mayntayne schollers Answere I knowe none more hard-hearted then the Puritans nor more bountifull then the Clergie to the poore As for Pettifoggers and Scribes they do skinne the poore and helpe them not Nothing therefore could bee more vnseasonable then this accusation For albeit the Ministerie by the spoyles of Patrons and griedie Gulles and wicked vexations of Puritans are almost now the poorest of the parish yet are they not sparing to giue euery man according to his facultie And as for some bishops it shal be prooued that they are as ready to maintayne and preferre learned schollers as the Puritans to impouerish them and spoyle them the rest let them answere for themselues Blush therefore you sacrilegious Church-robbing Puritans the ruinors of all churches and shame to talke of liberalitie and maynetenance of schollers For by your barking and by your spoyles and by your crying out against the reward of learning and by that pouertie and contempt you haue brought the ministerie into you haue almost ouerthrowen the ministery in Scotland religion in France would ouerthrow both in England And what should we els looke for at their hands seeing in racking of Rents exteremitie of dealing vsurie and vnlawfull practises of gaine and Turkish and inhumane crueltie diuers of these zelatours of puritanisme passe both Turkes and Heathen Article 40 The Queenes Iniunctions are not read quarterly as they should be Answere They are read as oft as neede is and if any negligence bee committed it is by the Puritans that bring all lawes into contempt sure they are contemned more by them then any for they openly impugne them not onely neglect them But admit they should be read very often yet would not the Puritans heare them nor obey them For they neyther respect her Maiestie nor her lawes but in despite of both seeke to establish a new gouernment and newe Iniunctions for which if they doe not shortly reforme themselues there will bee such penance inioyned them that they will better remember Iniunctions all their life long Article 41 Holy-dayes should bee spent in godly exercises Bishops bestowe them prophanely in playing at Bowles hearing Comedies and Tragedies Answere Very vnlikely it is that such fellowes as this should teach Bishops how to bestowe their time seeing there is none bestoweth these dayes worse then the hypocriticall secte of Puritans that in slaundering factious declayming against lawes and gouernours in chambring and chambring exercises yea and in worse matters doe bestowe their time in corners doing things which you may conceiue I may not vtter and therefore these are prophane and wicked hypocrites As for honest exercises why may they not be vsed vpon holy dayes so it be not in times of seruing God Wherefore vnlesse the Libeller can shew both better law and reason against bowles and other exercises well vsed and shewe cause why Tragedies may not be heard his accusation will rather seeme to proceede from malice then other cause and hee will bee taken for a prophane sencelesse hypocrite that is offended with bowling and exercises of learning and yet thinketh it lawfull to make an occupation of lying slaundering and defacing of good men and alloweth the secrete and parlour conferences of his fellowe Puritans and many other bad practises whereof some are comicall others tragicall and most of their discipline fabulous or a comicall fable Article 42 The Bishops be not without superstitious paintings in their chambers and diuers Churches haue them not abolished Article 22 To condemne the historicall and ciuill vse of painting is vnciuill and sauoureth of Turcisme Other vses of painting bishops haue none neyther is there now any superstitious vse of payntings in church wyndowes but those that are if they displease the Libeller he may haue downe at pleasure when hee will set newe glasse in their place The paintings that doe more harme are in apparell ruffes yea womens faces and their furniture wherein I would the Puritans did not commit both Idolatrie and other follie Wherefore seeing he is in the way as hee pretendeth of Reformation let these abuses of pricking pride painting be remoued also let him take heede that superstitiously he doe not make an idole of his discipline that both out of church and common wealth is to be abolished Article 43 The wiues of Ministers and Deacons should bee allowed by the Ordinary and two Iustices of peace But many forward Chapleyns regarde not this Answere In disdaine this scorneful wretch calleth learned Ministers Chapleins sparing neyther his aduersaries nor friends the Puritans that are for the most part trencher Chapleins nor others But what such lewde
mouthed Libellers and enemies of the Ministerie professed doe call honest men it is not materiall I know none marieth but such as haue allowance sufficient of their choyce If they haue not let the offenders be corrected and not innocents be disgraced for others offence why they should be called forward I know not seing none is so forward in marrying as the Puritan sort of whom I knowe none that hath the gift of continencie but would they cease to disgrace others I could for my part be contēt they should vse their libertie prouided alwayes they make not too great post haste nor without regard and consideration of their future wiues qualities leape into sodaine mischiefe Article 44 The clergie people goe not in their habits and square caps Answere What do the Puritan people forsooth they square it out for the most part in new fashiond conceited apparel are all clad in Satin veluet and costly apparel and braue it like people of a new gouernment some for humility sake goe in flat caps others go like clownes in russet clokes well they may for their religion is a russet religion good for none but russet cotes such as fauour populer gouernment fitting none but our rusticall platformers whose maners are rude vnciuill that men go not more orderly this faction is cause which maketh warre against the ministery and by all meanes seeketh to offer them scorne Article 45 The Bishops Officials allow none to be absent from their owne parish vnlesse they will pay a Marke for a licence yet law suffreth men to heare Sermons other where Answere Law restraineth men to their owne parishes but lust would be gadding abroad to see what is done elswhere for which if any officials graunt licence contrary to lawe there is law to correct them but why this man should be so offended with taking money for licēces I see no cause seing his deare friēds yea himselfe too vseth more taking then giuing and considering that Pettifoggers Scriuanoes such as the authors of this booke seeme to be liue by taking take without licence and contrary both to licence and law and haue wonne more by taking then others by long seruice and for all their pretended hypocrisie will neither spend nor loose commoditie for their puritane cause why men should not be suffered to frequent factious sermons there be diuers causes it is the way to faction sectes heresie and tumults and diuers other disorders Article 46 Songs in Churches should be distinct and modest Answere So they are but the Libellers eares were percase so out of tune that he could not iudge when he heard them for how can his eares be in tune whose wits not long since were in so great discord In the opinion of all wise men that can iudge and haue skill our church musicke is distinct modest and graue and farre passing the discordant tunes of Puritans Article 47 None of the Queenes subiectes should call one another hereticke nor scismaticke but we are so called and Puritans too by certaine Libellers Answere Yea and that very iustly too if you mayntaine this Libell and your newe booke of prayers and their most seditious and hereticall pamphlets of T. C. and others neither are they Libellers in so calling you nor doeth the Iniunction protect factious mates but quiet and good subiects such as you will not shew your selues to be rayling and reuelling at Lawes and gouernours in most shamefull sort and therefore disdayne not to be called by your names nor wonder if you be beaten with your owne weapons Article 48 Bishops and their Chapleyns seldome make a legge at the name of Iesus vnlesse it be at the reading of the Gospell nor remember Iesus but when they lustily sweare by Iesus Answere All Puritans vtterly mislike this bowing at the name of Iesus this semypuritan and demychristian misliketh the omitting of it therein condemning all his companions as contumacious lawbreakers and not proouing any matter against his aduersaries for which both one and other haue cause to mislike him but especially for lying and slaundering of Gouernours wherein hee sheweth his full malice and choler in charging them and want of matter in conuincing them The Puritanes speake nothing without protesting doe you not call that swearing no it is forswearing for when they protest deepest then commonly they dissemble most and performe least yea many of these seeme with the Priscilianites to haue litle regarde of othes as appeareth by their examinations If he knew any of his aduersaries that offendeth in swearing I doubt not but they shoulde heare it Article 49 The Queene accompteth them good subiectes that acknowledge her Maiestie to be sole supreme gouernour ouer all her subiect in all her Dominions The Bishops doe not Answere If nothing els were to bee respected but this poynt then were all lesuites and Seminarie men and other traytors good subiectes for they doubt not to giue her the title of sole supreme Gouernour ouer all her subiects but that she hath authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes and iudge in Ecclesiasticall causes and to appoynt Iudges and officers to iudge therein that no other hath power ouer her Maiestie neither Iesuites nor Puritans will confesse therefore vnlesse they acknowledge all the rest of her Maiesties prerogatiues and shewe more obedience to Lawes then hitherto they haue done they can not so easily scape the notes of disloyaltie Article 50 The Bishops haue not punished offendors against Iniunctions but are onely carefull to vrge subscriptions othes ex officio c. Answere If the Bishops haue not done their dueties why doest not thou make thy selfe party and accuse them they stand vpon their defence why commest thou not foorth in thy likenesse to charge them In the meane while take this answere that offences must first bee knowen and then punished and secondly that bishops haue suffered as fewe knowen offences to escape vnpunished as any other officers thirdly that those offences that tend to the ouerthrowe of the State are most narrowly looked vnto and lastly that he is a lewde mate that doeth picke quarrels with others for not executing those Lawes which himselfe doeth mislike As concerning their vrging of subscriptions and conuenting those that are disobedient to law the Bishops haue offended in nothing more then that they haue not bene more peremptorie in vrging them no State nor Gouernours euer suffered such notorious disloyaltie so long vnpunished Article 51 Bishops take extraordinarily for licences to preache contrarie to their owne aduertisements of licentious Preachers no licence is required Answere Shewe who they bee that take so much and who these licencious Preachers bee or els men will esteeme thee a licencious Libeller for mine owne part I knowe none more licencious then thy selfe and thy consortes which with all impunitie speake against Lawes and take to themselues libertie both to liue and beleeue as they list and for taking surpasse all other takers taking both from Church and
directions Neither is the inquisition which we haue deriued from the pope but vsed of al nations contrariwise the inquisition of the cōsistorie is like to the Spanish inquisition the papal proceeding For as in the Spanish inquisition so in the consistorie a man is called knoweth no accuser and whether hee confesse or not hee is sure to abide the order of the consistorie and what they command the ciuill Iudge performeth And therefore if all must away whatsoeuer is borowed from the pope away must the consistorie goe and their excommunication of princes and their absolute tyrannie Quaere if Christ were before the bishops should answere Putcase Quaest 17. beeing demanded of his doctrine I spake openly c. Aske them that hearde me whether he should be committed as M. Bambridge M. Iohnson and other godly ministers This question touching Iohnson and Bambridge concerneth the ecclesiasticall state nothing at all Answere For their cause was heard and ended at Cambridge before the Vicechanceller and his assistants so that it should seeme to bee a case put besides the cause in handling But in the same wee may see that these fellowes meane no lesse to ouerthrow the state priuiledges and iurisdiction of the Vniuersities then of the bishops Marke it therefore you my masters of the Vniuersities These fellowes whom you foster in your bosomes meane to touch your freehold also neither can they conceale their malice against all men of learning To answere this absurd question I say that I cannot chuse but wonder that any shoulde bee so blasphemous and wicked as to compare Christ Iesus the sonne of God vnto Iohnson a factious companion and a wicked heretike Out of Cambridge hee was expulsed for his mutinous Sermon and other leude behauiour From thence he went to Middleborough a retrait of such kinde of fellowes There hee declined into Barrowisme wherein hee now continueth hauing augmented his opinions with many newe fancies of his owne Bambridge a man somewhat wiser then Iohnson yet neyther to be compared with Christ nor any verie discreete or modest Christian Christ neuer declaimed against the state of priests nor did hee spreade newe doctrines nor did he spurne against gouernours These haue done al these things and it is the cōmon practise of all such as bee of this sort Christ did not refuse to answere directly and confessed that he was the sonne of God These stand not vpon their innocencie but vpon tearmes of lawe Neyther doth the example of our Sauiour fit them For hee being asked of his doctrine in generall coulde not otherwise answere then in generall These refuse to answere in particular poyntes which he did neuer and therefore iustly were committed A matter iustifiable both by the lawes of God also the lawes ciuill canon and common If being to answere in the Starre Chamber or Chancerie vnto certaine articles they shoulde answere That they deliuered nothing but publikely and will the examiner to aske them that heard and saw they would bee sent to other places to aduise vpon the matter Further I say it will not fall out in proofe that those men which haue bene conuented before the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical are either godly or wise or ministers therefore false it is that he affirmeth them to bee godly ministers and very scandalous to the state whom he setteth forth as a state persecuting Christ Iesus whereas in deed these men by defacing the Church and the gouernours thereof by teaching of erronious doctrine and by raising of stirres about a new gouernment which was neuer heard of in Christs Church do shew themselues enemies of Christ of his Church and of his Gospel and therefore together with Iohnson of whom themselues are now ashamed to bee cast out of the Church vnlesse they shew more signes of amendment Quaere Putcase Quaest 18. if by the iudiciall lawes by the Court in Chauncerie or Starre Chamber any man be forced to sweare before hee knowe the cause at least in generall whereunto he is to take his oath Suppose a man should graunt so much Answere albeit the vse be not alwayes so what will he conclude That the high commissioners proceede contrarie to lawe His purpose is so to doe but his argument will not so conclude vnlesse he shewe that they doe not also declare in generall the summe of the matter to which euery one is to answere But that he cannot doe and therefore I returne him backe to his prompters to frame his case better and doe reiect him as alledging matters not concludent In the meane while let him vnderstand thus much that the proceeding of Ecclesiasticall courtes in exacting of othes is not onely confirmed by all lawes but also by the practise of Geneua the patriarchall sea of puritans Quaere whether Bishops be not bound to confirme children Putcase Quest 19. aswel as Ministers to marrie with a Ring And whether may not popish young men not being confirmed refuse the Communion He would conclude Answere that because Bishops neglect some part of their duetie it is lawfull for his consortes to breake all lawes but the sequele is naught That children are not confirmed the fault is in parents that bring them not of these seducers that preach against confirmation not in Bishops And therefore if any refuse to receiue the Communion it is no reason he shoulde receaue benefite by his owne negligence but rather be punished for both faultes In that he ioyneth popish young men together with fantasticall young Ministers which refuse to marrie with the Ring he doeth not amisse for they doe both consent in oppugning the state and therefore are both to be punished neither will the pleading of the Bishops negligence if any be serue either of them Quaere Putcase Quest 20. whether an Ecclesiasticall Iudge may punish Bristowe for writing that our Communion booke is an apish imitation of the Masse-booke seeing the statute giueth onely that authoritie to Iustices of peace and whether Bristowe deprauing the Communion booke may be depriued of all his spirituall promotions for his first offence c. Item whether the lawe doeth not fauour the puritan as much as the papist The case is absurdly put Answere for it supposeth matters vnprobable as that Bristowe should haue certein spiritual promotions in England had onely offended in speaking against the Communion booke whereas the man did wilfully flye out of his countrie for his mislike of the state and practised diuers treasons and for the same being apprehended committed to prison died there Onely this thing is herein commendable that puritans papistes are very fitly ioyned together in this case Both deny the supremacie alike both depraue the gouernmēt-alike both rayle against our Communion booke alike and therefore that all may be alike both deserue to be vsed alike To the question I answere That the lawe accepteth not of persons but whether Th. Cartwright or Penrie or Bristowe or Allen
or any other offend it doeth decree them to be punished if they be caught Neither haue they wrong that are depriued of their ecclesiasticall liuings for their first offence in deprauing the Communion booke For the statute doeth not onely authorize ciuile Iudges to proceede ciuillie but also ecclesiasticall Iudges to proceede to depriuation according to ecclesiasticall lawes But this companion either did not reade the statute or would not report it for then his falshood should haue appeared and his calumniation in leauing a prouiso out of the statute should haue bene reproued Concerning the Communion booke I say it is not materiall what either Bristowe or this Put-case saith of it being both enemies of the state and lying without reason and conscience The puritans haue gone about to reforme it but their new booke is such as they may be greatly ashamed of it being full of false doctrine and fauouring a fond and loose gouernement and fraught with most vaine discourses and verball speeches Quaere Putcase Quest 21. whether adulterie is to be punished by the Ordinarie seeing the punishmēt thereof without any sauing to the spiritual court is giuen by statute to Iustices of peace and whether a man may be punished by two corporall or pecuniarie punishments in two seuerall Courtes for one and the same cause The put-case tryeth himselfe to be a very proper fellow Answere to become a procter speaker in the behalfe of adulterers fornicators Percase it concerneth him neerer then I am aware of but let him against the next time vnderstand the case better that he speaketh in For it is a shame for a procter in these cases not to vnderstand the difference betwixt adulterie fornicatiō and also to say that the lawe giueth the punishement of adultery to Iustices only for in that statute there is not so much as mentiō of adulterie but of bastardy And how bastards may be gottē in lawful wedlocke he wil hardly define considering the Common law which saieth that all children borne in matrimonie the husband being Intra quatuor maria are lawfull For my part so that adulterie and fomication bee punished seuerely I doe not care That the statute doeth not hinder the ecclesiastical Iudges proceeding it is euident for that there is no clause to annull his course neither is it the intendement of the statute to fauour such lewde persons But saith he it is no reason that one should be punished both in the ecclesiasticall ciuill courts for one fault wherein he doth not only contrarie vs but Th. Cartwright also who giueth the cognition of felonies and treasons to his newe consistorie and would haue offenders herein to acknowldge their faultes there also which is directlie contrarie to the statute lawes To answere his question I deny that offenders which are for incontinencie cōuented are twise punished for one fault for both the Ecclesiasticall and ciuile court make vp their full punishment Neither doe they against lawe that for reasonable causes the partie consenting do commute the penance This I wot if the ecclesiastical Iudges would deale as some Iustices of peace haue done in this case that fornication such matters should for the most part passe without examination or controlement Quaere if any Ordinaries haue contriued promulgued Putcase Quest 22. and published Articles in his own name without assent of her maiestic vnder seale and inforced her highnes subiectes to subscribe vnto the same and for not subscribing haue suspended or depriued them whether an Ordinarie thus doing 25. H. 8. c. 19. 1. Eliz. c. 1. may not be imprisoned and fined at the Queenes pleasure If the Put-case would haue made any inquirie Answere whether Th. Cartwright his fellowes haue offended against the statute prohibiting the making of ecclesiasticall Canons hee might haue found it out easily For the acts are euery where extant their doings knowen And yet are they not fined nor al of them imprisoned for it Neither do the ecclesiasticall Ordinaries refuse to bee punished if they can bee conuicted of any such notorious offence The subscriptions which haue bene required were no newe lawes as these fellowes conceaue but confirmations and allowances of the olde yet nothing hath bin herein done but by allowance As for the proceedinges vsed against the Consistorialls they haue bene most milde and gentle not for denyall of subscription as this man pretendeth but for other factious seditious and lewde behauiour obiected to them and remayning in record whose cause let him moue as oft as he will yet shall he neuer haue honor by it Quaere Putcase Quest 23.24 25. whether an Ordinarie may cite a man to appeare before him in his court to depose as witnesse c. Item whether a man shall be examined by othe of any thing that soundeth to his reproch c. Item whether if an Ordinary cite men Ex officio to sweare to accuse themselues in causes neither Matrimoniall nor Testamentary a prohibition wil lie against him or not Item whether the cause depending in the Starre chamber the Ecclesiastiall Iudges shoulde not cease their proceedings And last of all whether the Iudges and wisest lawyers doe not condemne the proceedings of prelates To most of this I haue already spoken Answere and doubt not but therby there appeareth neither reasō nor honestie nor law nor ought else saue malice in this demaundants questions Yet thus much I answere further First that if the Iudge could not call witnesses before him there would bee no triall nor proofe in matters of doubt Secondly that in diuers criminall causes both Gods lawes and the lawes of this realme doe require that the partie answere vpon his othe Thirdly that there lyeth no prohibition for that the Ordinarie dealeth in causes orderly and according to warrant of lawe Neither is it reason that the Ecclesiasticall Iudges should cease doing of iustice against all the perturbers of this Church because there was sometimes one matter depending in the Starre-chamber against some fewe of them For where the ecclesiasticall Iudge is prohibited to proceede in one cause yet doth he notwithstanding proceede in others of like nature concerning other parties Much rather then ought they to proceede not being prohibited and in cases that are diuerse especially now that the cotumacious dealing of the Puritans is by the iudgement of the reuerend Iudges and most sufficient lawers in England condemned and the cause now dismissed the courte and diuers consultations brought after prohibitions graunted out of some courts in that cause Neither doe I thinke that either maister Cooke a man too learned not to knowe and two wise to fauour such perturbers of the state as the seare or any Iudge or learned lawyer wil condemne the proceedings of ecclesiasticall courtes in these cases as being contrary to lawe The writte in the Register which seemeth to giue leaue to Ordinaries to sweare men in causes Testamentarie and Matrimoniall is proued to be miscōstrued
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens