and the Popes to be his successours He hath shewed also how the other Apostles were equal with Peter and how in other respectes they had lesse power for ordinarie continuance in their successours then Peter had But if I were of M. Iewels boasting humour I should now dissemble al this and write it in here a fresh as though nothing had benne said thereof before But I trowe wise men espie that smoky pride in him wel ynough I wisse lesse bookes might haue serued him for any good stuffe that is to be founde in them The fourth Booke conteineth a ful refutation of al that M. Iewel hath laid together in his pretensed Defence touching the Succession of Bishops in the Churche from the Apostles time vnto this present age Item a proufe of the necessitie of Confession WRITING the Confutation of the Apologie I had occasion to speake of the Succession of Bishoppes Thereto M. Iewel in his pretensed Defence hath replied at great length Wherein bicause he may perhaps to the vnlearned seme to haue some colour of aduantage against vs the matter being of good weight I iudge it not vnprofitable to bestow some labour and here to coÌ„fute his whole Defence touching that point whereby I doubte not it shal appeare how litle credite he deserueth if his sayinges be throughly examined where he blazeth forth most shew of learning That it maie appeare how directly he answereth the pointes of this Controuersie and of what pith his owne sayinges and how muche to the purpose his testimonies be and how truly alleged and that al be made the more plaine and cleere I wil reherse first the place of the Apologie that gaue me occasion to treat of Succession then the wordes of my Confutation against whiche M. Iewel bendeth the force of his Defence After this I wil laie forth his whole Defence sentence by sentence worde by worde as I finde it in his booke and so briefly as I can refel the same I am driuen to reherse that discourse of my Confutation againe bicause a great parte of the Defence depending thereof and being directed against the same onlesse it were againe by rehersal commended to the readers view and memorie our whole disputation would be obscure and vncertaine And this haue I donne also the rather to thintent the reader might haue that parte of my Confutation intier and whole whiche M. Iewel hath caused to be set forth in his booke pared hewed dismembred and altogether disgraced The Apologie parte 2. Cap. 5. Diuis 1. in the Defence Pag. 125. Furthermore vve saie that the miâ—ister ought laufully duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Church of God and that no man hath povver to vvrest him selfe into the holy Ministerie at his ovvne pleasure VVherefore these persons do vs the greater vvrong vvhiche haue nothing so common in their mouthes as that vve do nothing orderly and comely but al thinges troublesomly and vvithout order and that vve allovv euery man to be a priest to be a teacher and to be an interpretour of the scriptures Confutation fol. 56. a. Al from starre to starre leafte out by M. Ievvel Saing and doing are two thinges Ye saye wel in outward appearance Would God your doing were accordingly Albeit the manner of your saying had ben more coÌ„mendable if in so weighty a point you had spokeÌ„ more particularly and distinctly not so generally and confusely * Ye saye that the minister ought laufully to be called for so hath your Latine and duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God Why do ye not so why is not this obserued among you Gospellers What so euer ye meane by your Minister and by that office this are we assured of that in this your new Church Bishops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons or any other inferiour Orders ye haue none No holy orders among the gospellers Leâ—â— out by M. Ievvel In saying thus we speake not of our Apostates that be fledde from vs vnto your congregations Who as they remaine in the order which they receiued in the catholike Church so being diuided and cut of from the Church and excommunicate laufully they may not minister the sacramentes * For where as after the doctrine of your newe Gospel like the foreronners of Antichrist ye haue abandoned thexternal Sacrifice and priesthod of the newe Testament and haue not in your secte consecrated Bishops and therefore being without Priestes made with lawfull laying on of handes as Scripture requireth al holy Orders being geuen by Bishops only how can ye saie that any among you can laufully minister or that ye haue any lauful Ministers at al This then being so let me haue leaue to oppose one of these Defenders consciences And that for the better vnderstanding I may directe my wordes to a certaine person let him be the author of this Apologie or bicause his name to me is vnknowen let him be M. Iewel for with him gladly would I reason in this point the rather for acquaintaince and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Churche where my selfe had a rome How saye you Syr minister Bishop ought the Minister to be laufully called ought he duely and orderly to be preferred to that office or as the Latine here hath promoted or put in authoritie ouer the Church in the Apologie this Defender saith yea Leaft out by M. Ievvel Then answer me directely How proue you your selfe laufully called to the roume you take vpon you to occupie First touching the ordinary Succession of Bishops from which as you knowe S. Iraeneus Tertullian Optatus and S. Augustine bring argument and testimonie of right and true religion do you allow the same with those fathers or no If not then dissent you from the learned and most vncorrupte antiquitie which is not reasonable neither then are you to be heard If yea then how can you recken vs vp your succession by which you may referre your imposition of handes and consecration to some of the Apostles or of their scholers as the foresaid fathers did to repel the nouelties of heresies and defende their continual possession of the Churche Which if ye go about how can ye but to the great hinderance of your cause bewraye your weake holde For whereas succession of doctrine must be ioyned with the succession of persons as Caluine in his institutions affirmeth and Beza auouched at the assemblie of Poyssi in Fraunce and we also graunt Succession of doctrine ioyned vvith succession of persons how many Bishoppes can you recken whom in the Churche of Sarisburie you haue succeded as wel in doctrine as in outward sitting in that chayre How many can you tel vs of that being your Predecessours in order before you were of your opinion and taught the faithful people of that Dioces the doctrine that you teache Dyd Bishop Capon teach your doctrine did Shaxton did Campegius did Bishop Audley Briefly did euer any Bishop of that See
wordes be simply beleeued let my Confutation of the Apologie be vewed and there I shal be founde touching these odious pointes of these princes Variance with the Popes of their time to haue vttered these woordes farre otherwise then he here reporteth Confut. fol. 339. b. Concerning the case between these three Kinges of England and the Bishoppes of Rome for the tyme being I say litle If they did wel and the Bishoppes euil they haue their rewarde the other their punishment If otherwise or how so euer ech one at Gods iudgement shal haue his deserued measure But be it graunted al were true ye say though we know the more parte to be false Henrie the secōd S. Thomas Arch bishop of Canturbury King Iohn What though king Henrie the Second were euil entreated of Pope Alexander about the murthering of S. Thomas the Archebishop of Canturburie and King Iohn likewise of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius the thirde about the stirre he made against the Church for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop of Canturburie Henrie the .8 This is no iust cause to forsake the Churche King Henrie the eigth likewise of the Popes in our time about matters yet fresh bleeding Is this a good cause why ye who haue nothing to doo with Princes matters now ended and buried should forsake the Churche change your Faith change the whole order of Religion and condemne al before your time for a thousand yeres Bicause the Bishoppes of Rome haue done euil wil ye geue ouer the Faith of the Churche of Rome Bicause the Popes did wronge to Princes wil ye doo wrong to your selues Bicause the Popes were at Variance with these three Kinges wil ye be at Variance with God Bicause they excommunicated them wil ye excommunicate your selues I haue heard of a foole that being striken of one standing a looffe of would eftsones strike an other that stood next him But I neuer heard of any so foolish that seeing an other striken would therefore kill him selfe Verely your Apostasie and departing from the Catholique Churche is to weightie a matter to be defended with so light a reason Thou maist see good Reader that here I take not vpon me in Defence of those Popes to answere vnto these matters nor shortely as M. Iewel saith nor at length nor in light manner nor in sad manner which matters he calleth Tyrannical iniuries and iuste causes of griefe The more cleerely to shewe how litle good matter our new Vsurping Clergie haue to bring for the excuse and Defence of the Alteration they haue made in Religion and of their Schisme and departing from the Catholike Churche bicause in their Apologie they alleged these Practises of the Popes only I demaunde their tale for their better aduantage being graunted to be true whiche yet I saied expressely was knowen to be false for the more parte what reliefe their cause could haue thereby and how the euil doinges of the Bishoppes of Rome if it were graunted they did euil therein could be drawen to Defence of their owne worse doing To whiche demaunde M. Iewel by his silence in his pretensed Defence maketh al the worlde witnesse Defence Pag. 733. how vnhable he is to answere Howbeit in that place he vseth his common sleight by cutting awaie the chiefe parte of my tale wherein lyeth the weighte and so dischargeth him selfe of the paines of answering Any booke may so sone be answered Touching these Popes and these Kinges when M. Iewel or any of his felow Ministers shal truely and with sufficient reason proue vnto vs that Henrie the Second did wel when he gaue occasion that the blessed Martyr S. Thomas Archebishop of Canturburie was murdered that al King Iohns attemptes against the Churche for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop and primate of the same prouince were iuste and right and that King Henrie the eight did wel and according either to the holy Scriptures or doctrine of the auncient and learned Fathers when he tooke vpon him to be Supreme Head in earth of the Churche of England immediatly vnder Christe whiche no temporal prince euer tooke vpon him before and likewise when for maintenance of the same title he hanged headded and quartered so many holy and learned men of al degrees now blessed Sainctes and crowned Martyrs in heauen when I say either he or they or any of them shal proue this much vnto vs in such sorte as I said before then wil we say with them ô worthy Kinges ô naughty Popes yea then wil we saie too ô the crowe is white Neuerthelesse I doo not here iustifie al the deedes of the Popes But what so euer they did that is no sufficient cause why these menne should forsake their Faith and departe from the felowship of the Churche Item there Iewel But concerning the Maiestie and right of Kinges and Emperours M. Harding telleth vs they haue their first authoritie by the positiue Lavve of Nations and can haue no more povver then the people hath of vvhom they take their temporal iurisdiction Confutat Fol. 318. b. Harding If I haue herein spoken euil geue witnesse against me of euil Ye would faine finde a faulte I perceiue if ye wiste wherein You seeme not wel to vnderstand what you saie nor whereof you affirme But you allege the Scriptures Per me Reges regnant Prouer. 8. By me Kinges doo reigne And there is no power but from God very learnedly forsooth As though the auctoritie Rom. 13. that Princes haue by the positiue lawe of Nations and the power whiche they haue of the people were not of God as who vseth that meane to conueie that power vnto them Item there Iewel M. Harding euen in the selfe same booke vnder certaine general threates chargeth your Maiestie vvith disordered presumption by the example of Ozias the vvicked King vpon vvhom as he vntruly saith God sent his vengeance for the like Confut. fol. 298. a. Harding You would faine the Queenes Maiestie should conceiue hatred against me I perceiue M. Iewel and thereto you applie al your skil and cunning But Sir who deserueth more thankes at God and the Princes for the time being he that telleth them the Truthe and in time geueth warning to beware of Goddes Vengeance before it be to late or he that for his owne wordly interest holdeth his peace and leadeth them into a wrong way from the whiche if they returne not backe they are sure at length to feele either the temporal smarte of Goddes Vengeance in this life or the euerlasting smarte in the life to come Ye flatter ye flatter your Princes M. Iewel ye deceiue them ye blinde them ye worke al meanes possible that the Truthe be not brought to their vnderstanding least were it knowen and of them perceiued ye should be turned out of your welthy roumes and driuen againe to Geneua I had almost said Gehenna from whence ye came Certainely ye shutte vp the kingdome of Heauen from Princes and others so
Esaie Esai 5â— This is my couenaunt with them my spirite whiche is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mowth shal not departe from thy mowth and from the mowth of thy seede and from the mowth of thy seedes seede from this time for euer Lo here ye heare bothe the wordes of God and the Spirite of truthe by whom the wordes may be rightly vnderstanded promised to remaine with the Church for euer Thus we are wel assured that the Churche hath neuer failed nor wanted Goddes worde goddes Spirite and Goddes truthe But ye my Maisters of the new learning do say that the Churche failed and was destitute of Goddes worde and of his spirite of Truthe for the space of nyne hundred yeres and more vntil Martin Luther came and restored the lost Gospel By vertue of whiche Gospel neuer preached before ye claime the right of the Church and so would dispossesse vs wherein of necessitie ye must graunt one of these two either that Christe the Sonne of God promised more then he perfourmed whiche were heinous blasphemie or that your Churche hath continued til this day and shal continue to the worldes ende If to eschew the reproche of so wicked a blasphemie ye graunt the continuance of your Churche ye must tel vs where it was before Luther began to preache that ye cal the Gospel Name the place where was it Or was it somewhere without a place Dic quibus in terris eris mihi magnus Apollo If it were at al where were your Bishops What were their names or were they men without names Bring forth your Originals your Registers your Rolles of Bishops that folowed one after an other by lawful succession For this were a sure way for proufe of your right Tertull. In prascript Optatus August muche commended and vsed of the best learned Fathers Your Actes and Monumentes where be they Haue ye none of greater antiquitie then those late of Foxes making If ye had a continual succession how came Luther and Zuinglius first to the Gospel how was al the light quite out before how were al the fonteines of the water of life vtterly dryed vp before his time for so ye write in your Apologie This this can not stand together M. Iewel by no meanes as al the world may see So then it is we kepe our ancient Possession ye heaue and shooue to remoue vs from it We be of the howseholde ye are strangers We are the heires of the Apostles ye are forrainers We are the lawful Children of the Churche ye are Bastardes to be shorte and plaine whereas we are Catholiques what foloweth but that ye be Heretiques The case standing thus what great offence haue I committed if where I defende the common cause of the Churche being moued with dew zeale and iuste griefe of mynde to see your vngodly dealinges I forgete sometimes the flattering Titles wherewith ye woulde your proceedinges to be magnified and vse wordes more agreable to your desertes O ye saie I vse vncourteous and vnciuile speache Why sir if ye skreake like Frogges must we saie ye sing like Nightingalles If ye crowe like proude Cockes must we saie ye mourne like simple Dooues If ye byte vs like Mastiâ—â—s must we say ye licke vs like gentle Spaniâ—h If ye consume vs and deuoure vs like rauening Wolues must we say ye profite vs like good Sheepe Must we tel the worlde that your Serpentes be Fisshes your Snakes be Lamproies your Scorpions be Creauises briefly that your deadly Poison is holesom Triacle What were this but to please men and to deceiue Goddes people But let vs go from Metaphores and come to the plaine mater If your Doctrine be false as by most sufficient waies we haue proued it to be shal we be vnciuile excepte we sooth it If your deedes be vngodly as the worlde seeth and rueth shal we be vncourteous excepte we iustifie them If ye say Nay for Yea and Yea for Nay in Goddes causes shal we be blamed as men vnciuil and vncourteous except we vpholde your Yea and your Nay We can be content to lacke the praise of suche sinneful Ciuilitie of suche wicked Courtesie If any priuely pike money out of our purses steale our goodes robbe by the high waye kil men and attempte traison to their Princes person standeth it with good manner to cal them Pikepurses Theeues Robbers Murderers Traitours and whereas you and your felowes teache and stubbornly mainteine a false doctrine concerning the real presence that here I speake of no other pointes by the Churche and by Luther him selfe the first founder of your owne Gospel condemned for Heresie must it needes be an vncourteous parte to cal you Heretiques To touche some of your rawest Gaulles for making proffer to whiche ye wince and kicke so muche euery where â—nd specially where ye laye forth al my sharpe wordes with suche diligence gathered together out of my bookes into one heape before your Preface to the Reader For so muche as it is geuen forth by Luthers owne confession that by the conference and disputation which the Deuil had with him he was persuaded to defie the Masse and become enemie to the blessed Sacrifice of the Churche and your selfe M. Iewel haue geuen your verdite in fauour of Luther and Satan Sathans doctrine Sathan their Schoole Maister In the Replie art 1. Diuision 2. allowing Satans Doctrine in that point and Luthers conformitie imbracing the same also for your owne parte as you haue openly witnessed in your Replie what offence was it to say for whiche you shewe your selfe greeued that ye ioined with Satan and concerning the spite ye beare at the Masse to cal Satan your Schoolemaister That I called this new founded Churche of the Protestantes a Babylonical tower not without iuste cause It angreth you that I cal this new Church of yours for so a Gods name we must name it Your Babylonical Tower And this is for a heinous worde scored vp among the rest in your said Rolle you tel the Quene of it also in your Epistle to her Maiestie but how iustly ye be offended therewith let it be considered by that I shal here briefly declare Dissensions among the Protestantes Who knoweth not that is any thing acquainted with the affaires of oure age into how many Sectes they haue diuided them selues that forsooke the Catholique Churche sithence Luther beganne to leade vs a newe daunce in Religion what controuersies debates and strifes about the weightiest pointes of our Faith haue benne stirred vp and moste earnestly mainteined among them Who hath not heard of the brawling and skolding betwene Luther and Zuinglius and the vpholders of either side about the Doctrine of the Euchariste Neither hath the matter benne handled with any better quiet betwene the Osiandrines and the Stancarians touching the Iustification of man the one Secte attributing it vnto Christes Diuine nature the other vnto his humaine nature onely Againe what sturre hath benne made about
what saie you M. Iewel Is there no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste If there be why bring you S. Hierome to proue them both one If there be not S. Augustine shal laie to your charge that you are an Aerian Aerians which secte of Heretiques being otherwise Arians had their first name of one Aerius that was an Arian Priest The heresies of Aerius who bicause he could not be ordered Bishop beganne to teache certaine new heresies The first that there was no difference betwixte a Bishop and a Priest the nexte that no praier or Sacrifice ought to be made for the Dead the third that menne ought not to keepe the solemne and the accustomed Fastes of the Churche lest they should be vnder the lawe It shal be good for you and for your better purgation that you are not an Heretique of Aerius schoole to consider of S. Hieromes places better and seâ—ke why S. Hierome spake those wordes who in other places folowing hath leaft a plaine difference betwixte a Bishop and a Prieste What discretion you haue in the vnderstanding of olde Authours as by you it appeareth where so euer you cal for healpe at their handes Hieron in Esai cap. 19. euen so it is seene most euidently in this place where you allege S. Hierome to proue that there be but fiue Orders in the whole Churche two of whiche neither S. Hierome nor any other olde writer euer tooke to be Orders as we speake properly of Order Ecclesiastical as it is a Sacrament hauing his necessary ministers to do dewties in the Church in the time of publique Seruice So you deceiue your selfe alwaies bicause you are so ignorant VVhat inconuenience maie folovv if in any question it shal be lauful for one to vse the diuers significations of termes at his pleasure Presbyter Diaconus Diabolus For I would be loth to saie it were malice that you see not how a terme that hath many significations is vsed whether it be vsed in his largest nature or in some proper and singular signification restrained You maie if you liste so to abuse termes saie that al Elders are Priestes as some times you doo bicause this worde Presbyter importeth the signification both of Priestes and of Elders that euery Magistrate secular is a Bishop bicause he is an ouerseer whom Episcopus signifieth that euery seruant is a Deacon bicause Diaconus signifieth a Minister that euery il man that is a quareller is the very Deuil him selfe bicause Diabolus signifieth a quareller If you wil not see and take a daie better to consider when Authours doo vse termes in some large significations and when they vse them properly in significations restrained from the Generalitie your folie wil be suche er it be longe that euerie man shal see it In the allegation of S. Clement I thinke verely you groped and sensibly fealt your owne folie where he saith Clemens Epist 2. De Con. Distinct 3. Tribus gradibus that the Sacramentes of the Diuine secretes are committed vnto three Orders vnto the Priest vnto the Deacon and vnto the Minister You sawe plainely that S. Clement named expressely three Orders distincte and yet you saie that Deacons and Ministers as touching the name are al one This place of S. Clement ioyned with your owne Confession that Deacons and Ministers Minister touching the name are al one wil inforce you to confesse that termes are diuersly restrained from their generalitie without apposition or addition at al as the terme Minister whiche is general must needes signifie some distincte Order diuers from the Deacon Emong al the Authorities that you haue brought if you had alleged any that by naming of any number of Orders had therewith excluded al other that had not ben conteined within the same you had brought somewhat to helpe your cause Pag. 97. S. Hierome S. Clement S. Dionyse as their matter and occasion serued spake of certaine holy Orders that haue preeminence in the Churche as the Bishop the Prieste the Deacon the Minister or Subdeacon but they neuer so spake of these principal holy Orders that either they expressely excluded or meant any exclusion of the lower Orders Wherefore al your talke and stoare of Testimonies are to no purpose as beinge vtterly wyde of the matter you shoulde proue Pag. 97. It pleaseth here your ministerly grauitie and great wisedom first to scoffe out al the lower or inferiour Orders whose offices our Sauiour Christe him selfe executed in his owne person and therfore to kepe Order within the Churche whiles the sacrifice of the Masse was celebrated or any other Sacrament ministred the three lower Orders were decently placed the doore keepers Inferiour Orders the Exorcistes not Coniurers M. Iewel by your licence whiche terme now in English conteineth an infaime as the lawes made against them do witnesse the Acolutes the Readers As touching the pleasure you take in scoffing Pag. 97. 98. solacing your selfe therewith in this place we can not muche woonder that you mocke and ieast at Petrus Lombardus a man farre passing you in vertue and learning seing your scorneful head could not refraine from scoffing at S. Clement the holy Martyr of Christe that liued in the Apostles time and was appointed by S. Peter to be his successour in the See Apostolique and spare not to scoffe out the Order of Deacons who tooke place in the very Apostles time You would gladly to delite your folowers for a time make them beleeue that the Deacons office was for no other purpose but to holde a fanne in their handes to keepe of flies from the Communion Cup and yet that scoffing head of yours doth knowe that the Deacons had an office more proper vnto their Order then that and yet that office as base as your mery head would it should appeare considering to whom that seruice was donne to wit that nothing should chaunce vndecently about the precious bloud of Christe vpon the Aulter coÌ„secrated was in dignitie farre passing the highest office that is donne in the presence of the honourablest wordely Prince that is And wil ye see the great witte of the man After that he hath made mery with his good felowes his Disciples and scoffed at the office of the Deacons at Patrus Lombardus that holy and learned Bishop at S. Clement that blessed Martyr at the origine and foundatio of al the lower Orders as one that had quite forgotten what fonde partes he had plaied at length he commeth in confessing plainely that sundry of the Offices of the lower and inferiour Orders in the Primitiue Churche were appointed to very good and sober purposes And yet the man would haue them al suppressed in the ende bicause Ostiarius now keepeth not the excommunicates out the Acolute waiteth not on the Bisshop the Exorcistes caste not out Deuilles the Reader openly pronounceth not the Scriptures the Deacons prouide not for the poore yea bicause the Bishop preacheth not the Gospel And
debet esse iudex in causa propria The Pope maie not be iudge in his ovvne cause Harding The Pope maie be iudge in the cause of the Churche Though Leos Authoritie be not greate in his ovvne cause The .29 Chapt. yet in the cause of the Churche being so auncient so holy so learned a Father by your owne graunt it must be very great The wordes you bring are of your owne forging Wherefore as ye haue hitherto benne a forger of Doctours Scriptures the Canon lawe and Gloses so now you are become a forger of the Ciuile lawe With what wordes the lawe is written here anonne you shal see But be it true that Vlpian said for so you should haue said The Emperour alleged for Vlpian and not the Emperour as your skil in the lawe vnskilfully telleth vs no man maie minister lawe vnto himselfe Yet neither he not the Emperour euer forbad but that a man maie truely reporte of his owne matters Now Pope Leo that holy man and great learned Clerke in the place by me alleged doth not minister lawe vnto him selfe in his owne cause but for the better gouernement of the Churche and that peace and good order maie the better be kepte in the Churche reporteth a difference or diuersitie of power to be emong Bishoppes with likenesse of Order and honour as S. Hierome in his epistle to Euagrius coÌ„fesseth them to be of one merite and of one Priestehood In declaring whereof he speaketh of the right that the Bishoppes of the See Apostolique S. Peters successours ought to haue in the gouernment of the vniuersal Church through out the whole worlde This M. Iewel was not his owne priuate cause but the cause of the whole Churche in whiche he might geue iudgement But M. Iewel guilfully seemeth to put the case as though there had ben many Catholiques that called Pope Leo to lawe for vsurping the authoritie not dewe vnto him and as thoughe he had ben defendant against them al yea as thoughe he had stepte vp into his iudgement seate and there sitting as a Iudge in his owne mater had pronunced sentence for him selfe Whiche thing he did not nor euer was there any catholique man that laid any suche kinde of vsurpation to his charge he neuer stoode as defendant nor sate as Iudge in his owne cause but discretely and truely as occasion serued signified vnto the worlde his lawful authoritie and his â—uccessours as Kinges vse to doo in their titles of honour and stiles If M. Iewel wil calle his double wiued lawier vnto him and with him peruse the lawe that beginneth Qui Iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet â— Qui iu risdiccioni ff de iurisdict omn. iudic neque vxori vel liberis suis c. whiche is the true lawe that he should haue alleged and wil consider that Princes Kinges and Emperours vse to doo in their owne causes by very order of lawe and if he wil therewith searche out the right meaning of the lawe L. in priuatis ff de inoffic testamen In priuatis iudicus pater filium vel filius patrem iudicem habere potest he shal finde both that he hath fondely vainely and rashly alleged a lawe that he vnderstoode not nor made any thing to his purpose but onely to fil vp paper with wordes and also that it is one thing to saie Nemo debet sibi ius dicere as he falsely allegeth the Lawe and that it is a farre other thing to saie Qui iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet neque vxori vel liberis suis neque libertis vel caeteris quos secum habet For so is the lawe vttered by Vlpianus As for your marginal note out of the Decrees you shew how barrein and poore your mater is that for defence of it you are faine to runne for helpe to notes put in the margent of the Glose a very poore shifte God wote To your marginal note I answere The Pope as there the Glosse saith if there be a mater in lawe betwen him and an other man about a temporal thing ought not him selfe to be iudge in that case and to take the thing into his owne possession before it be tried whose it is but to choose Vmpeeres to sitte vpon it Now marke what followeth good Reader 16. q. 6. Consuetudo tamen si vult esse Iudex in causa Ecclesiae potest esse yet if he list to be a iudge in a mater concerning the Churche he maie be Certainely no one thing more concerneth the wealth tranquillitie and good order of the Churche then that whiche Leo intreateth of in the epistle 84. to Anastasius the Bishop of Thessalonica whiche in my Confutation to good purpose I alleged Iewel Pag. 111. Concil Aphricanum cap. 105. Superbum seculi typhuÌ„ It is vvel knovven that the Pope hath sought for and claimed this vniuersal authoritie these many hundred yeres Pope Innocentius vvas therefore reproued of pride and vvorldely lordelinesse by the vvhole Councel of Aphrica Harding The Aphrican Councel vntruly reported by M. Iewel The 30. Chapt. The Pope hath not sought for that whiche our Lorde gaue vnto S. Peter no more then S. Peter sought for it at Christes graunt The fame he maie iustely claime for so muche as it perteineth to the feeding and gouernement of Christes flocke and to the strengthning of the faithful as being the Successour of S. Peter That you saie of Innocentius is vtterly false He was not so reproued of pride and worldely Lordelinesse as more like a proud worldely Lordeling then an humble plaine handler of Goddes Truthe you saie Neither be those wordes superbum seculi typhum which you laie forth in your Margent to be founde in any Epistle of the Aphrican Councel to Innocentius nor be they spoken or written at al against Innocentius as you beare vs in hande Neither was Innocentius then a liue when the Aphrican Councel was holden but departed this life long before I graunt there is extant an epistle of the Aphrican Councel to the learned Pope Coelestinus in whiche Epistle Innocentius that blessed man is not once touched Neither was the charitie of that whole Councel so smal as to speake so il of a holy Bishop so long before departed The manner of those Fathers was to praie for suche specially for the Bishoppes of Rome deceassed rehearsing their names in their Masses and in no wise to reporte so il of them How be it in that whole epistle Pope Innocentius is not so muche as once named nor spoken of There we finde these three wordes fumosum typhum seculi that is to saie the smoky pride of the worlde or the vaine stoutenesse of the temporaltie but in a farre other sense and to an other purpose then M. Iewel pretendeth Whether he rightly vnderstode the place or no I haue good cause to doubte It seemeth that the Bishop of Rome in the cause of Appiarius whom
is the Priest which after the order of Melchisedech offereth vp vnto God those that beleue in him by a seruice of godly worship which passeth the law Why would you not see those wordes that folowed in Cyrillus M. Iewel First Christ had a Predecessour in his Priesthod euen Melchisedech the high Priest Secondly Melchisedech is here declared to haue offered vnto God and that Christ in offering vnto God fulfilled his figure whereas you would haue Melchisedech to make his oblation to Abraham and not to God Thirdly the thing offered by Melchisedech was not only bread and wine but Abraham the Father of al beleeuers was offered vnto God by Melchisedech And so Christe in his last Supper offered vnto God not now bread and wine only but by his almighty power he turned the bread into the seede of Abraham and so he offered vnto God al the faithful which by reason of their head Christ being truly conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine were also signified present as members ioined with the head and so were al offered â—nto God Now whereas Christ was of the tribe of Iuda that made for him for out of that tribe the Messias was looked for by the Succession of the hâ—â—se of Dauid as the Pharisees them selues confessed And thereby they ought to haue vnderstanded that their Succession from Aaron should yeeld vnto the Succession of Dauid who had said that his Lorde Psal 109. and Sonne should be also a Priest after the order of Melchisedech And the Iewes knew that they ought to haue yelded to their Messias as to their chiefe head so long before promised If you can shew vs M. Iewel that as Christ was prophecied of to put the Priestes of Aaron out of their places so Luther Zuinglius or Caluine was prophecied of to destroie the Succession of S. Peter we yeeld vnto you But as the high Priestes and Pharisees were neuer bound to yeeld vnto any maÌ„ but only vnto Christ at his first comming so S. Peters Successours ought neuer to yeeld but only to Christ at his second comming And so by al meanes the Succession is perpetual and the true Religion neuer lacked it visible and cleare as this new Religion doth which for lacke of it can not possibly stand long no more then that of the Arians or of the Nestorians did Sap. 4. For Bastard slippes take not deepe rootes And therefore though they seeme to florish for a time yet soone they vanish away But the Tree which Christe hath planted that onely shal endure for euer That saie we is the Chaier of Peter with al suche Successions of Bishops as keepe them in the vnitie of Peters Chaier Iewel Chrysostome imagineth the Pharisees thus to say Chrysost in Math. Hom. 39. Thou art not of the house of Priestes The Councel hath not graunted it thee the emperour hath not geuen it thee Harding You know this author is not S. Chrysostome and yet stil you name him so not so much as addiÌ„g M. Ievvel very ofte allegeth the writer of opus imperfeâ—ctum in Mattheum for Chrysostome knowing him not so to be Hom. 39. in opere imperfecto whereby we might vnderstand whom you meane wherein of purpose you doo vntruly Now to the matter This writter whether he was Maximinus Arianus as some auouche or who so euer he was doth not onely shew that the Pharisees might haue had suche thoughtes but also he sheweth that the signes and the true priesthod agreed al and mette vpon Christ who had his power not of men but of God And farther he addeth there in this wise Sacerdos qui est secundùm Deum omnem Sacerdotem timet offendere quia omnes ex Deo fieri arbitratur quamuis ex hominibus sit factus Euery Priest which is of God feareth to offend any Priest bicause he thinketh euery Priest to be made of God although he be made of men But you M. Iewel thinke no Prieste at al now to be made of God To be made I say For you wil graunt none other Priesthod then that Spiritual and internal Priesthod which is common to wemen and children as wel as to men As for external Priesthood you thinke none at al to be made and therfore you despise not only euery Priest made of men but also you despise the highest Priest of al to wit the Bisshop of Rome and al his predecessours being aboue thirtie Martyrs and mo Confessours and blessed Saintes that haue sitten in that See and haue exercised their power ouer the whole Church as it is wel knowen of S. Clement Eleutherius Victor Stephanus and others The Pharisees wordes may be truly applied to you M. Iewel For you wil haue no spiritual power to be in the Church but that which the temporal Counsel or Emperour Laie Princes made gouernours of Christes Churche in al thinges aÌ„d causes or some like secular Prince doth geue For these officers haue you made the supreme gouernours of Christes Church in al thinges and causes He that saith in al leaueth out nothing at al wherein the temporal Prince is not supreme Gouernour Therefore in your Church it is a good argument thou maist not doo the office of a Bishop preach absolue or Baptize bicause thou art not admitted thereto by the Ciuile Magistrate I wisse they of the Clergie in the Primitiue Churche would rather haue suffered a thowsand deathes then they would haue submitted the power which Christe gaue to them vnto the laie gouernours who although Christ alloweth them and commaundeth them to be obeyed yet were not made by him maisters of his Religion and of his Churche The power must come from the Apostles by lawful Succession which shal rule Christes Church and not from the Emperour or from the Kinge muche lesse from a woman or from a childe hauing otherwise neuer so good right to thinheretance of a Crowne Iewel Thus to maineteine them selues in credite for that they had Succession and continuance from Aaron and satâ— in Moyses chaire they kept Christs quite out of possession Harding They would haue done so in deede M. Iewel but he did put them out of possession bicause they would haue had there priesthod to continue longer then the prophecies had foretolde and Goddes Counsel had determined For the lawe and Prophetes brought al to Christe and there was shewed that a change should be made by him Bring vs forthe the like Prophecies that Luther Zuinglius Caluine or that lusty Gospeller Beza must put the Pope out of possession and forthwith by like Miracle bring you to passe that the whole Churche I meane al them that professe the Faith of the Romaine Church be dispersed and destroied as Christ dispersed and destroied the Iewes then we wil leaue the Pope yea Christ also and follow you and them as our second Messias But if as from Aaron til Christes first coÌ„ming the High Priestes ought to haue yelded their possessioÌ„ to no man that euer came so from S.
Fathers accompted euil in vvedlok vvorke Matrimonie it selfe were an euil thing God forbid any should so speake of Goddes holy ordinance But he meaneth the coniunction of the Husband with his wife in the acte of generation Neither yet vnderstandeth he the coniunction or acte it selfe in wedlocke to be an euil thing so it be not to the end to saciate luste and pleasure but to the ende to begete a childe that being againe begotten and regenerate may serue to fil the Citie of God as S. Augustine speaketh but the immoderate concupiscence and luste without the whiche that wedlocke acte is not done Whereof S. Augustine saith August de Nuptijs et concupiscent lib. 1. cap. 24. Cùm ventum fuerit ad opus generandi ipse ille licitus honestus concubitus non poterit esse sine ardore libidinis vt peragi possit quod rationis est non libidinis This immoderate concupiscence this inordination this rebellion of the fleshe and preuenting and ouerbearing of reason this filthy motion swaruing from reason whereof shame is taken without whiche the acte of Wedlocke is not donne is the thing whiche the authour of that vnperfite worke vppon S. Matthew and sundry holy Fathers haue called Malum asmuche to say an euil thing The euil thing of wedlock vvorke of married persons vvel vsed The three good thinges of marriage à cap. 10. vsque ad cap. 16. Whiche euil thing notwithstanding married personnes doo vse wel bicause of the three good thinges that Matrimonie hath by which it is excused Those three thinges are these Fides Proles Sacramentum Faith or Fidelitie Issue and the Sacrament whereof S. Augustine teacheth learnedly in his firste booke De Nuptijs concupiscentia ad Valerium By these three good thinges as S. Augustine and the Churche teacheth the vse of Matrimonie is excused not as an acte that of it selfe is euil is excused thorough ignorance or infirmitie whiche is rather an excuse of the partie that worketh but it is excused for that otherwise it should be a sinne excepte it had these three good thinges ioyned together Whiche when it hath the Circumstances to euery good acte behooful presupposed it is an acte lawful honest good and laudable Now this being considered whereas you M. Iewel iudge the holy Fathers to speake otherwise of Matrimonie then the honor and holinesse of that state deserueth you shew your selfe to be of the nūber of those deceiued men August de Nuptus et Concupis lib. 1. ca. 5. of whom S. Augustin saith thus Profectò errāt qui cū vituperatur libido carnalis damnari nuptias opinantur quasi morbus iste de connubio sit non de peccato Verely they are deceiued which when fleshly luste is rebuked thinke that marriage is condemned as though this disease were of wedlocke August de peccato originali contra Pelag. Coelestiū lib. 2. c. 37 and not of sinne Likewise he saith againe Quia iam ista conditione mortalium nunc simul aguntur concubitus libido eò fit vt cùm libido reprehendatur etiam nuptialis concubitus licitus honestus reprehendi putetur ab eis qui nolunt discernere ista vel nesciunt Bicause as the condition of men is now after Sinne the acte of generation and lust are done both atonce thereof it commeth to passe that when luste is reprooued the lawful and honest dealing of them together that be coupled in wedlocke is thought also to be reprooued of them whiche wil not discerne betwene these thinges he meaneth the acte and the lust or els know not how to discerne them To cōclude what so euer certaine Fathers say and how so euer they seeme to speake of Matrimonie this perteined nothing to the purpose Al your great number of allegations might haue ben leafte out for asmuche as thereby your Vowbreakers marriage is nothing iustified nor defended M. Iewels second Principle for defence of Vow-breakers marriages answered which is that Bisshoppes and Priestes were married in olde time Your second Principle for so you cal it wherein you put the chiefe confidence of this cause is that many Bishops and Priestes in olde time were married for so you dispose your wordes I tel you M. Iewel you haue not so much as one example for you that a bishop was married I meane that any was euer married in the olde Church and allowed in it after that he was Bishop That diuers and sundry married menne were for their vertue and holy life made Bishops I denie not ne neuer yet denied You allege al the examples of antiquitie that you can yet not so much as one to the purpose That Tertullian was a married man Tettulliā of a married man made Priest Spiridion made Bisshop frō being a married laie man S. Hilarie married by M. Ievvel In the Reioinder against the Sacrifice of the Masse fol. 172. b. and afterwarde made a Priest I graunte You say Spiridion the Bisshop of Cyprus was married and had children I denie that Spiridion being a Bishop was married but I confesse that being a married laye man before he was chosen afterwarde to be a Bishoppe and had one daughter named Irene Whether he had mo children I knowe not of mo children of his I haue not read You make S. Hilarie the bishop of Poitiers a married man Your proufe is the Epistle to Abra his daughter If I denie that he was euer married how can ye prooue it The Epistle to Abra is a peeuish Apocryphal and forged write as I tolde you in my last Reioindre where you vtter this same very stuffe in great sooth whereby the worlde may vnderstand what simple ragges ye haue wherwith to coouer your brethern the Apostates filthy lecherie That Prosper the Bishop of Rhegium was a married man you say it but you prooue it not And were it so yet it serueth not your turne bicause if he were maried it was before he was priest Neither haue you good authoritie for proufe that Chaeremon Chaeremō the Bishop of a Citie called Nilus whom you recken among married Bishops Euseb Hist Eccles lib. 6. cap 42. was married Eusebius saith that in time of persecution he fled vnto a Hil in Arabia with her that liued with him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and was neuer founde againe That she was his wife it appeareth not She might be some woman of his kinne or some other old womā that kept him and dressed his meate and attended him as a nourse of whom he had neede being a man of extreme age as Eusebius reporteth of him saying that he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say passing olde Polycrates Polycrates you say being a Bisshop sometimes said that seuen of his Fathers or Ancestours had ben Bishoppes What healpeth this your cause at al Marry say you the Greeke word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Ruffinus translateth it Patres Wherunto sticke you vnto the Greeke word
addeth priuilegijs omnibus custodit is quae reuerend issimis Clericis sacrae praestant cōstitutiones al Priuileges kepte whiche the Emperours lawes doo graunt vnto the reuerend Clerkes And saith farther Si verò Ecclesiasticum sit delictum egens castigatione ecclesiastica mulcta Deo amabilis Episcopus hoc discernat nihil communicantibus clarissimis prouinciae Iudicibus Neque enim volumus talia negotia omnino scire ciuiles iudices quum oporteat talia ecclesiasticè examinari emendari animas delinquentium per Ecclesiasticam mulctam secundùm sacras diuinas regulas quas etiam sequi nostra non dedignantur leges If the faulte be ecclesiastical and neede ecclesiastical pounishment and discipline let the wel beloued Bishop of God iudge and discerne it and let not the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle with it at al. For it is not our pleasure that Ciuil Magistrates haue at al the examination of suche matters seing suche matters must be examined ecclesiastically after the order of the Canons and the offenders must be punished by Ecclesiastical discipline according to the holy and diuine Canons whiche our lawes doo not disdaine to folow Seing Iustinian hath so ordeined no wise man that hath read his Lawes wil saie that either he in fringed those Priuileges or as one contrarie to him selfe made a lawe against the Liberties of the Churche without any mention of the former that he him selfe had made Wherefore Iustinian in the Law that you reherse M. Iewel is to be vnderstanded to speake of ciuil and tēporal cases and that in those cases no Bishop should be brought before the Lieutenant and Ciuil Magistrate except the Prince so commaunded it Now whereas you vpon those wordes say that a Bisshop maie be conuented before a Ciuil Magistrate we graunt and euer so said that in Ciuil causes and temporal maters of which Iustinian speaketh Bishops may be cōuented before a temporal Magistrate But that is not our question But this is that which we say The very point of this Question that it is not lawful for a Prince to cal a Priest to his seate of iudgemēt in Ecclesiastical causes And in this your owne authour Iustinian condemneth you He saith as you heard before Autent 83. col 6. vt Clerici Si ecclesiasticū sit delictū c. If the faulte be ecclesiastical let the welbeloued Bisshop of God iudge and discerne it Let the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle nothing at al with it For we wil not that Ciuil Magistrates haue the examination of suche matters And againe Cod. de Episco clericis L. Clericus Si verò crimen sit Ecclesiasticum episcopalis erit examinatio castigatio If the faulte be Ecclesiastical the examination and pounishing of it shal apperteine vnto the Bisshoppe But peraduenture you wil replie to this and saie that Iustinian in the lawe by you rehersed speaketh not onely of Ciuil but also of ecclesiastical causes and willeth a Bishop in qualibet causa in any cause to be conuented before the temporal magistrate if the Prince do so commaunde If you or your lawier make this obiection we answer that it can not be shewed out of al Iustinians lawes Anthent 83. col 6. vt Clerici that he willed a Bishop or Prieste to be conuented before a temporal Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause or to be pounished for any hainous offence before he were degraded of his Bishop And hereof if you had but a meane smattering in the Ciuil Lawe you could not be ignorant Besides that already alleged you find in the Code this Lawe Cod. de Episco Clericis L. Statuimus Statuimus vt nullus Ecclesiasticā personam in criminali quaestione vel ciuili trahere ad iudicium seculare praesumat contrae cōstitutiones imperiales canonicas sanctiones We ordeine and decree that no man presume to bring any Ecclesiastical person to the seate of iudgement of any seculare Magistrate in a criminal or ciuil cause contrarie to the Imperial Constitutions and canonical Decrees By this you see that it is against both the Emperours constitutions and Canons of the Churche that a Bishop should be conuented before a Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause As for the vantage which you seeke in those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause it is none at al. Had not you benne blinded with malice and your lawier with ignorance you might haue learned A Maxima amōg the lavviers that it is a Maxima and a Principle with the lawiers that Leges tales indefinitè loquentes intelligendae sunt secundùm aliam legem speciatim loquentem Such lawes speaking indefinitely must be vnderstanded by an other lawe that speaketh specially and particularly Wherefore seing the lawe Clericus in the Code and the Antentike vt Clerici in the new Constitutions make special mention that Bishops and Priestes should not be conuented before Ciuil Magistrates in Ecclesiastical causes and permitte no temporal Iudge to meddle with Ecclesiastical personnes excepte it be in Ciuil matters and that with a Limitation and a Prouiso also it had ben your parte and your blinde Lawiers also to haue vnderstanded those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause spoken there indefinitely by the other Lawes that speake more specially But then had you lost a peeuish sophistical Argument and menne had not knowen your worthy skil in the Lawe which no doubte wil appeare great by your practise Iewel pag. 637. 638. The Emperour Martianus cōmaundeth if the cause be criminal that the Bisshop be conuented before the Lieutenant vt coram Praeside conueniatur Harding For your credite touching Martianus commaundement you referre vs to the Code of Iustinian L. Si qui ex consensu de Episco Audient L. Cum Clericis de Episco Clericis As for the first you may tel your lawier that he hath fouly deceiued you and therefore is not worthy to haue his fee. That lawe Si qui ex consensu Cod. de Episcop Audient was neuer made by Martianus the Emperour but by Arcadius and Honorius and requireth neither Bishop nor Prieste nor Clerke to be conuented before the Lieutenant but declareth that if any by mutual consent wil haue their matter debated before the Bishop as an arbiter it shal be lawful for them so to do as euery man that either considereth the law or readeth the Summe set before it may easily see M. Ievv forgeth As for the other lawe Cum Clericis although it be Martianus decree yet hath it not those wordes vt coram Praeside conueniatur that the Bishop be conuented before the Lieutenant nor any clause or sentence sounding to that pupose For trial whereof I referre me to the booke and to any indifferent man that can reade and vnderstande it But suppose it to be true that the Emperour Martianus had geuen suche a commaundement what could it aduantage your cause M. Iewel You should proue
Gods minister to see iustice ministred and the Violences and iniuries of his Lieutenantes and Officers pounished and these ciuil causes of Felonie Murder and Rape to be truely and thoroughly examined ad vindictam malorum to the reuenge of malefactours wrote his letters to al them that had ben at the foresaid conuenticle at Tyrus and required them to appeare before him as before the syncere minister of God and to render accompte of their dealing against Athanasius in those Ciuil cases Of this mater See the Returne Art 4. Item the Countreblast lib. 2 Cap. 2. 3 For he might wel doo it and nothing further M. Iewel in proufe of his desperate cause that a Bishoppe was conuented in maters of Faith and ecclesiastical causes before the Ciuil Magistrate as his lawful and ordinarie Iudge Iewel Pag. 638. Iustinian the Emperour in the lavve that he maketh touching the publique praiers of the Churche saith thus we commaunde al Bishoppes and Priestes to minister the holy oblation Authentica constit 123. and the prayer at the holy Baptisme not vnder silence but with suche voice as maie be heard of the faithful people to thintente the hartes of the hearers maie be stirred to more Deuotion c. Aftervvarde he addeth further And let the holy Priestes vnderstand that if they neglecte any of these thinges they shal make answere therefore at the dreadful iudgement of the great God and our Sauiour Iesus Christe And yet neuerthelesse we our selues vnderstanding the same wil not passe it ouer nor leaue it vnpounished Hereby vve see that Godly princes maie summone Bishoppes to appeare before them euen in causes Ecclesiastical to receiue such pounischement as they haue deserued Harding For answere to this or any thinge that you can bring out of Iustinian for breuities sake I referre you to Iustinian him selfe By whose constitutions and Godly lawes it maie easily appeare how farre he was from claiming superioritie ouer Bishoppes or gouernment as supreme iudge in causes Ecclesiastical as he who decreed according to the definitions of the 4. general Councelles that in Spiritual causes the Pope of the elder Rome should be taken for the chiefe of al Priestes and aduertised Pope Iohn that there should be nothing moued perteining to the state of the Churche but that he would signifie it to his Holinesse being Heade of al Churches and declared that in all his Lawes and dooinges for matters Ecclesiastical he gaue place to the holy Canons made by the Fathers and willed that when any Ecclesiastical matter were moued his Laie officers should not intermelde but suffer the Bishoppes to ende it according to the Canons In this very Constitution whiche you haue alleged with these special wordes he committeth the Iudgement and pounishment of al sortes of offences committed by them of the Clergie to such as the Canons haue put in authoritie Authentica constit 123. Thus he decreeth Quotiescunque aliquis vel Sacerdotum vel Clericorum vel Praesulum vel Monachorum vel de fide vel de turpi vita vel quòd contra sacros aliquid Canones peregerit accusatus fuerit si quidem is qui accusatus Episcopus fuerit huius Metropolitanus ea quae proferentur examinato Si verò Metropolitanus beatissimus Archiepiscopus sub quo censetur si Presbyter aut Diaconus aut alius Clericus aut Praesul Monasterij aut Monachus Religiosissimus Episcopus sub quo hi censentur delata in accusationem examinato veritate cōprobata vnusquisque pro modo delicti Canonicis censuris subijcitor iudicio eius qui causae examinationem accommodat As often as any either of the Priestes or of the Clerkes or of the Prelates or of the Monkes is accused either of faith or of filthy life or that he hath done ought against the holy Canons in case he that is accused be a Bishop let his Metropolitane examine the thinges that shal be laid to his charge if he be a Metropolitan let the Archebishop vnder whom he is haue the examination If he be a Priest or a Deacon or some other Clerke or a Prelate of a Monasterie or some Monke let the Bishop vnder whose iurisdiction they are examine the thinges that be laid in accusation And when the truth is tried out let euery one abide the Censures of the Canons for the rate of the faulte by the iudgement of him that sitteth vpon the examination of the matter Againe how farre he was from the minde and wil that Bishops or any other whatsouer Ecclesiastical personnes should be summoned to appeare before him or his temporal officers in iudgement for any Ecclesiastical cause this expresse Decree which there also ye might haue founde sufficiently witnesseth Si Ecclesiasticum negotium sit nullam Communionem habento Ciuiles Magistratus cum ea disceptatione sed Religiosissimi Episcopi secundùm sacros Canones negotio finem imponunto If the matter be Ecclesiastical that is to be iudged let the Ciuile Magistrates haue nothing to doo with it But let the most Religious Bishoppes make an ende of it according to the holy Canons By these as also by the purporte of sundrie other Iustinians constitutions ordinances and decrees al menne maie see that he neither chalenged any supreme dominion ouer Bishops and Priestes in Ecclesiastical causes nor enacted this nor any other lawe as chiefe Gouernour of the Churche but followed the holy Councels and willed the Canons to take place and confirmed that which was decreed by them For special answer then to this special obiection made out of the 123 constitution I saie that Iustinian threatned to pounishe them with the seueritie of temporal lawes who would not be conteined in their duetie by Ecclesiastical discipline and order of the Canons that feare might force where loue and conscience could not binde Which policie we doo not mislike seing Duo vincula fortius ligant two bondes binde faster then one To be shorte Iustinian leaueth the correction of Clerkes offending in any thing against the Canons to the cēsures of the Canons And if any refuse to abide the order appointed by the Canons and vtterly shake of the yoke of the Canons then that is to say in the case of extreme stubbornesse and contempte of the Canons like a Godly prince he threateneth reuenge and pounishment In which case the Church doth now cal and alwaies hath called for the aide of the Seculare Arme against those that vtterly refuse to be corrected by the censures of the Church and seeme incorrigible So neither by the lawes of Iustinian neither by the example of Brunichildis neither by the Gloses that you so solemnely allege it can not be seene that Godly Princes might euer summone Bishops to appeare before them to receiue any pounishment at their handes as their superiours and supreme gouernours in ecclesiastical causes Peraduenture if we put on eyes of better sighte we maie see it hereafter if wee diligently attende what you saie Foorth therefore M. Iewel Iewel Pag. 638.
The Emperour Constantinus in his letters to the people of Nicomodia Theodorit li. 1. c. 19. speaking of the vvilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes saith thus Illorum temeraria praesumptio mea hoc est ministri Christi manu coercebitur Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande that is to saie by the hande of Christes seruant August cōtra epist Parme. li. 1. cap. 7. So likevvise S. Augustine saith to the Donatistes An fortè de religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Cur ergo ad Imperatorem legati vestri venerant Is it not lavvful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie shoulde pronounce in a case of Religion VVherefore then vvent your ovvne Ambassadours to the Emperour Harding If you had said M. Iewel that Constantinus in his epistle to the Nicomedians had threatned to pounishe Bishoppes and Priestes that were Arians that is cursed and abominable heretiques you had in some parte said the truthe But where you saie that he spake of the wilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes and adde not Arian Priestes and Arian Bishoppes you conceele parte of the true Storie and declare your malicious hart against Priestes and Bishoppes But to leaue that cankred spite of yours to the iudgement of God why doo ye not report the Emperours wordes as they are in your authour Theodoritus M. Ievvels corruptiō Wil you neuer leaue this your accustomed vile corruption Theodoritus saith not as you reporte but thus Theodorit lib. 1. cap. 19. Quòd si quis audacter inconsultéque ad memoriam laudē pestium illarū exarserit illius statim audacia ministri Dei hoc est mea executione coercebitur If any man be inflamed boldely and incircumspectly at the remembrance and cōmendation of those wicked and pestilent heretiques his boldenes shal be repressed straightwaie by execution done by me that am the minister of God And these threatning wordes of the Emperour are to be referred to the people of Nicodemia for to them the epistle was directed And hauing tēporal iurisdiction as power of life and death ouer them he put that terrour into their hartes that they should be neither in loue nor in admiration of those accursed Bishoppes whom he had bannished for the Arian heresie Or if M. Iewel wil haue those wordes of the Emperour to be referred as wel to the Bishoppes and Priestes as to the laie people Let him vnderstand that as it is lawful for any Prince to pounish heretiques that are excommunicate by the Churche and deliuered to the secular power be they Bishoppes or priestes So it was lawful for Constantine to pounishe these wicked Arian Bishoppes excommunicated and accused by the. 318. Bishoppes in the Councel of Nice And as the prince that now as an executour of Iustice pounisheth heretikes by death is not for that cōsideration neither iudge in causes of heresie nor supreme gouernour of the Churche So Constantine at that time had no iurisdiction ouer Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes albeit he bannished them and threatned them other pounishmēt if they fel in loue of those cursed Arians For the princes threatning of pounishment for heresie is no argument to build a superioritie in ecclesiastical causes As for the place whiche you bring out of S. Augustine you brought it before in your Replie to proue that Emperours might receiue Appeales in ecclesiastical causes Art 4. fol. 104. 105 106. And a sufficient answere was made vnto it in the Returne of Vntruthes vpon you Why conceele you that If you had ben studious of the truthe for Goddes sake you should haue yelded vnto it or if you had iudged it false haue confuted it and not let it passe in silence and now trouble the Reader with the same stuffe againe But peraduenture you wil saie that you neuer sawe that booke and therefore that you dissemble not the answer If it were credible that you would not see a booke written directely against you and one that toucheth you so neare this excuse were tolerable But seing it hath no colour of truthe there can be litle pretended to saue you from the gilte of dissimulation and hypocrisie in this case I answere you therefore as he did S. Augustine spake in that place against the stubborne Donatistes of whom Parmenianus was one whiche complained that the Emperour Constantine eos ad campum id est ad supplicium duci iussit commaunded them to be brought foorth into the fielde that is to pounishement And in reasoning against him he tooke aduantage of his owne doinges not as allowing the Appeale to the Emperour but as prouing him vnreasonable who for aduantage would appeale to the Emperour and when the Emperour had pronounced sentence against him would striue and repine at the sentence and saie that he being a temporal prince ought not to pounishe Bishoppes Like as if you M. Iewel hauing made the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche should saie in case you were condemned of heresie or of Simonie by the Prince Her grace ought not to condemne me in these cases a Catholique that flattereth her not with that title would reason against you and saie No sir Is it not laweful for the Queene to condemne you in a case of heresie and Simonie Why then made you the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche Euen so did S. Augustine reason against the Donatistes And bicause by their appeale to his Maiestie they had chosen him iudge in their cause and after said he could not condemne them S. Augustine vsed their owne weapon against them to cōuince their folie and said as you saie Is it not lawful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie should pronounce in a case of Religion Wherefore then went your owne Ambassadours to the Emperour c. But as the Catholique reasoning in suche wise against you can not be said by that to allowe the Queenes supremacie So S. Augustine in this talke against the Donatistes can not be said to allowe the Emperours authoritie in condemning of Bishoppes and other ecclesiastical causes For he answering an other Donatiste that said Augustinus epist 162. Non debuit episcopus proconsulari iudicio purgari a Bishop ought not to make his purgation before a temporal magistrate said If he be worthy to be blamed whom the temporal iudge hath absolued whereas he him selfe did not require it how much more are they to be blamed whiche would haue a temporal prince to be iudge in their cause By this it appeareth that he thought that Princes could not be iudges ouer Bishoppes Ibidem Moreouer he reporteth that Constantine who appointed iudges to heare their cause did it à sanctis Antistitibus veniam petiturus as minding to aske pardon of the holy Bishoppes for his facte And the same Emperour seing their importunitie in repairing to him as iudge said Optatus li. 1. cōtra Parmen O rabida furoris audacia Sicut in causis
Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
many as be so farre accursed of God as to beleeue your wicked generation that ye neither entre in thither your selues nor suffer others to entre The place where the wordes be with whiche you would incense the Queenes wrath against me hath no general threats as you saie but conteine such true matter as I am not a shamed of confute it if you can verely in your Defence ye haue not done it Ye confounde saie I the offices of the spiritual Gouernours and temporal Magistrates What Kinges Confut. fol. 298. a. and Princes maie doo what they be commaunded to doo and ought of duetie to doo in Goddes name let them doo and wel maie they so doo Who is he that gainesaith If by the pretensed example of Dauid and Salomon ye animate them to intermedle with Bishoply offices then beware they saie we that Goddes Vengeance light not vpon them for such wicked presumption whiche lighted vpon king Ozias for the like offence 2. Par. 26. I marueil you denie that the Vengeance of God lighted vpon king Ozias for the like Presumption to that whereunto by your monstrous lawe and Doctrine ye animate your Princes Whiche parte denie you That Goddes Vengeance lighted vpon him Or that the Presumption is like For proufe of the Vengeance ye haue the plaine Scripture 2. Paralip 26. whiche saith that Ozias pounished for presumption as he would haue burned incense to our Lorde at the Aulter of the sweete perfume whiche belonged to the office of the Priestes only to doo a Lepre rose in his forehead whereupon the Priestes draue him out of the Temple and he himselfe also made hast that he were gonne out 2. Par. 26 saith the texte eo quòd sensisset illicò plagam Domini for that streight waie he felte the plague of our Lorde Touching the Presumption it is like For in bothe it is an vndue geuing of aduenture to doo that thing which belongeth to Bishoply Priestly auctoritie aÌ„d power geuen vnto the Quene by the Parlament and priestly office And what is that which Bishoppes and Priestes maie doo whiche ye haue not by your Acte of Parlament geuen the Quene auctoritie to do What power or auctoritie is excepted where al thinges and causes be expressed where I saie by solemne othe taken before God and his holy Angelles ye binde men to acknowledge her for the chiefe and supreme Head for by your new worde Gouernoure ye take not awaie I trowe the meaning of your former worde Head in al thinges and causes as wel spiritual as temporal Ye know ye know M. Iewel this is a very large Commission for a woman to exercise in Christes Churche Tel vs not of your newe deuised Iniunction as for a poore shifte ye are wont to doo so thinne a cloke wil not fence you againste so greate a storme of weather Although the Queene that now is haue no great delite in the exercise of al manner suche auctoritie as ye haue put her in yet what if after her time there come in her place an other Prince King or Queene of an other manner courage and fansie whom it shal like wel sometimes for his pleasure strange deuotion ambitioÌ„ or pride to doo the office which by lawe of your Parlament is committed vnto him 2 Par. 26. as it is written of king Ozias that when he became mightie and of great power his harte was lifted vp and he would needes doo that whiche belonged onely to the Priestes office If it shal like suche a Prince be he your Soueraine Lorde or Soueraine Ladie to go into your Pulpites and there after your manner to raue and raile at the Pope at the Papistes and to tel the people a peece of your lusty Geneuian Gospel whereby they maie be stirred to allewdnesse and carnal libertie If I saie the Prince that shal succeede the Queene that now is shal take vpon him so to doo what wil ye saie in this case M. Iewel and your good Brethren Wil ye come vnto him and tel him Sir if it like your Maiestie you maie not so doo Wil ye saie that it belongeth to you and to such Ministers of the word as you are and to none elles Wil ye resiste him in that attempte and driue him out of the Churche if by that time ye shal haue any Church standing at al as the Priestes of Iewrie resisted and draue out of the Temple King Ozias If your hartes shal serue you so to doo and he replie against you saying that by graunt of your owne Parlament which is a most assured warrant ye haue geuen him the supreme power auctoritie and gouernement in al thinges and causes as wel spiritual as temporal and that therefore he wil vse and practise suche power as he maie by your owne graunte what haue ye then to saie Wil ye then face him out with your pretie litle worthe Iniunctions deuised by two or three Ministers Wil that serue the turne trow ye It wil not it wil not ye maie be assured Now let vs heare with what other matter M. Iewel chargeth me Item there Iewel Thus be saith vnto your Maiestie and vvith al his skil and cunning Confut. fol 277. Confut. fol. 328. a Confut. fol. 172. b Reioind 314. Conf. 87. a CoÌ„f. 269. b Rei 42. a. Conf. 43. a CoÌ„f. 269. a 323. b. 334. a. 338. a. 348. b. A bundel of Vntruthes laboureth to persuade your Maiesties Subiectes if any one or other happely of simplicite vvil beleeue him that the godly Lavves vvhiche your Maiestie hath geuen vs to liue vnder are 1 no Lavves that your Parlamentes are 2 no Parlamentes that your Clergie is 3 no Clergie our Sacramentes no 4 Sacramentes our Faith no 5 Faith The Church of England vvhereof your Maiestie is the most principal and Chiefe he calleth a 6 malignant Churche a nevve Church erected by the dâ—â—il a Babylonical Tovver a Heard of Antichriste a Temple of Lucifer a Synagoge and a Schole of Satan ful of Robberie Sacrilege Schisme and Heresie Harding First that I say thus vnto the Quenes Maiestie it is a grosse and a palpable lye and a lye in sight For al know that reade my Confutation that in my booke I directed not my wordes vnto the Quene but vnto M. Iewel and vnto his companions that conferred with him towardes the making of the Apologie That I saie in my Confutation The Lawes made in the Quenes time be no Lawes it is an other lye That I saie The Parlamentes be no Parlamentes it is likewise an other lye That I saie The Quenes Clergie is no Clergie although I said it not and so is it the fourth lye yet here I maie saie it is a very womanly Clergie if it be a Clergie at al. That I saie Their two Sacramentes are no Sacramentes The Faith of Heretikes not Faith but perfidie it is the fifth lye Sacramentes they maie be though Schismatical Heretical corrupte and polluted Sacramentes The manner
Ye are like to whitted Sepulchres Matth. 23. Liers euil beastes slow bellies Tit. 1. God shal strike thee thou painted wal said S. Paule to Ananias Act. 23. O ye foolishe Galathians Galat. 3. False Apostles guileful workers 2. Cor. 11. The enemies of the Crosse of Christe whose bellye is their God Philip. 3. O ye stifnecked and vncircumcised in hartes and eares ye haue euer resisted the holy Ghost said S. Steuen vnto the Iewes Act. 7. As Iannes and Iambres withstode Moyses so these withstand the truth 2. Tim. 3. Hye minded proude blasphemous Ibidem Their worde creapeth forth like a canker 2. Tim. 2. Their tong is ful of deadly poison Iacob 3. These Dreamers defile the flesh despise rulers and speake euil of them that are in auctoritie Iudae As beastes whiche are without reason Woe be vnto them For they haue folowed the way of Cain and are vtterly geuen to the errour of Balaam for lucres sake and perish in the treason of Chore. Ibidem Why tempte ye me ye Ypocrites said Christe Matth. 22 Wo be vnto you Scribes and Pharisees Ypocrites Mat. 23 Wo be vnto you blinde guides Ibid. O ye fooles and blinde Ibid. Ypocrite first caste out the beame out of thine owne eye and then c. Matth. 7. It were not harde Christian Reader here to lay forth a greater heape of wordes gathered out of the Scriptures which M. Iewel reproueth in me as vncourteous and vnciuile and proceding altogether of choler But these few may suffice for shewe that if we consider wordes only and not the Circumstance of the sentence and the iuste cause why they were with such vehemencie vttered the holy Ghoste may seme also chargeable of vncourteous and vnciuile speache by whose prompting the Scriptures of God haue ben written If the matter of M. Iewels greuous accusation depende of wordes considered in them selfe onely the Scriptures haue wordes that being put a parte sownde more roughly then any yet by the written or by him noted And so farre is that pretensed fault in both Testamentes nolesse then in my bookes But if al be to be weighed by the sentences wherein suche woordes be placed and by the deserte of them in whose reproufe they be vttered as reason is it should then I appeale to al men of iudgement the dew circumstances and causes wel considered whether I haue at any time passed the bowndes of a zealous defender of the Catholique Religion whereof I make profession That the vse of sharpe speache is conuenient according to the desert of M. Iewel and of his felowes LEt the rehersal of my whole sentences with their circumstance in whiche the wordes be founde that doo so much offend be differred vntil anonne And here to turne thy tale vnto you M. Iewel and vnto your felowes lette it be lawful for me to come vnto the causes by whiche I was iustly moued so to write and to the very thinges them selfe for which ye deserue so to be written of The oddes betwixte M. Ievvel and them of his side and vs. and with such courtesie of wordes to be greeted Who be you M. Iewel and who be they of your side Who am I or rather who are we For of my selfe I am content no accompte be made but only as I apply myne endeuour to defende the Churche and the Catholique Faith by you impugned As for vs say the worst ye can of vs we are Catholiques By your owne confession your doctrine hath not benne in al Churches at al times taught and therefore ye haue tolde vs we knowe not what of your Church that it is inuisible secret vnknowen and lurketh in corners no man can tel where and therefore ye are not Catholique We remaine in that we haue receiued ye are departed from that ye receiued The doctrine for whiche ye make suche sturre is it not openly knowen to al from what men ye had it and how late ye learned it Where was this fifth Gospel so muche as whispered in any knowen corner of the worlde before that lewd Augustine Frier Martin Luther brake his vowe ranne out of his Cloister and yoked him selfe to his wanton Nonne Where was your Sacramentarie doctrine preached before Frier Huskin that new named him selfe Oecolampadius likewise brake his solemne promise to God forsooke his Religion and coupled him selfe to a young yoke fellowe Before their time who heard the sownde of your Gospel Where had ye any Dioces any Bishoppe any Church any Priest any Chappel any so much as a Parrish Clerke in the whole worlde Tel vs not as ye are woont of Wiklef Huss Ierome of Prague Berengarius Bertram and a few other which were but byles and botches in the Churche and be in no wise worthy the name of Churche Forgete not what you say in your Apologie that Luther and Zuinglius came first to the Gospel Remember ye cal that time the first appearing the spring and the first grasse as it were of your Gospel If it be so how be ye Catholique or how be ye of the Catholique Churche which is so called in respecte of the vniuersalitie of times Vincētius Lirinen places and personnes As for vs on the otherside we are hable to shew you the continuance of our faith and Doctrine by orderly successions of Bishops going vpward euen from those learned and holy Fathers whom for none other cause but only for the Catholique Faith of Christes Churche most vniustly ye kepe in Prison to S. Gregorie who sent godly Preachers to conuert the English people of our countrie vnto the Faith of Christe and from S. Gregorie further vpward vnto S. Peter and S. Paule that preached the Faith in Rome and consequently vnto Christe him selfe If we would speake vnto you in the person of the Catholique Church whereof we are a parte we might say vnto you those wordes of Tertullian spoken to Heretiques Mea est possessio olim possideo prior possideo Tertul. li. Praescript aduersus haereticos habeo origines firmas ab ipsis authoribus quorum fuit res Ego sum haeres Apostolorum The Scripture and the right sense of the Scripture is my possession I am in possession of olde I claime possession by former right The Churche continueth to the worldes ende vvithout al intermission Matt. 28 Iohan. 14 I haue the assured originals from the first authours by whom it was set forth It is I that am the Apostles heire The Churche M. Iewel as ye ought to knowe continueth from Christes Ascension vnto the ende of the worlde without intermission and without exception of any age or yeres Wil ye haue vs proue it What can we say if ye wil not beleeue Christe nor God him selfe I wil be with you saith Christe al daies vnto the ende of the worlde Againe I wil beseche my Father and he shal geue you an other conforter to remaine with you for euer the Spirite of truthe whiche the worlde can not receiue God saith to Christe in
the despiser and prophaner of the holy Sacramentes the breaker of vnitie the enemie of God And for my warrant in so doing I haue the examples whiche here I laid forth before of the Prophetes of the Apostles specially of S. Paule S. Iude and S. Peter of S. Iohn the Baptiste of our Sauiour Christe him selfe Yea I say furthermore what is that sharpenes of wordes whiche in this case I meane when the auctoritie of the Councels and holy Fathers is so lightly contemned when Gods holy Mysteries are so turkishly prophaned when the Churche is so falsly sclaundered when vnitie is so with most certaine danger of Christian soules broken when the whole state of the Catholique Religion is so wickedly ouerthrowen briefly when God him selfe is so horribly blasphemed In this case I say what sharpenes of wordes is there which iuste griefe of a Christian harte and godly zeale causeth not to seeme not onely excusable but also laudable yea necessary yea with praise and reward to be honoured If when the Children of Israel defyled them selues in Fornication with the wemen of Moab God in anger said to Moyses take al the chiefe of the people Num. 25. and hang them vp in Gibettes against the Sunne that my wrath may be turned from Israel where there is so muche bothe bodily and spiritual fornication yea sacrilegious Incest not only coÌ„mitted but permitted but taught but couÌ„seled and exhorted and for some parte commaunded against the honour and wil of God our Moyseses and Aarons the true Gouernours withholden from executing their dewtie shal it not become vs whose hartes God toucheth at least with wordes to shewe the griefe of our mindes and with conuenient sharpenes of speache to rebuke the heinous wickednes that is committed and so for so muche as in vs lyeth to reuoke Gods people from it If Phinees being nor high Priest nor magistrate but only as yet a priuate man Ibidem was highly praised and rewarded of God for his zeale in killing one of the Israelites for whooredom committed with an harlot of Madian to stay Gods wrath shal we seme to deserue blame for vttering onely wordes in reproufe of so farre more heinous crimes if not to stay God from his iuste wrath nor the offenders from their wickednes yet the people of God from the like example What you are very nice M Iewel that finde so great faulte with me onely for certaine sharpe wordes bestowed in reprehension of your and your companions so diuers and so greeuous enormities You are not taken vp for halting as they say pardy Halting may haue some excuse of humaine infirmitie This that is reprehended in you is not only halting it is falling downe right Neither are you so muche to be rebuked for your owne wilful falling downe but muche more for that you studie and labour al that you can to pul al others downe into the pitte that your selfe are fallen into Now in this case the pitte being so dangerous is it not wel and dewtifully done to geue warning to Gods people to beware of it Al that I writte is for the peoples sake For with you and such as you are I haue litle hope to doo any good Suche ones the Apostle aduertiseth vs Tit. 1. not to deale withal Now how shal the people be dewly warned to beware whose senses be more liuely in worldly then in spiritual thinges excepte the dulnes of their minde be stirred vp with the feare of great peril And how can the greatnes of this peril be signified vnto them but with wordes of some vehemencie As for example If I should say to one that goeth forth by night sir the way you shal passe through is vneeuen by reason of litle holes and furrowes And you take not heede you may happen to stumble or perhappes to wrentche your foote Vpon this warning wil he be so careful how to go as if I say thus If you loue your life beware how you go that way for there be great pittes and dungeons that you shal hardly escape and if you fal you are sure to breake your necke The case is like in this behalfe M. Iewel The people be alwaies going foreward and for lacke of knowledge they passe forth as it were by night Now so farre as we are persuaded the way they go in at this day in England to be perilous as that whiche through Schismes and Heresies and other manifold wickednes thereof ensewing leadeth them to euerlasting damnation should we not deceiue them if we tolde them that Dungeons were but furrowes that deepe pittes were but stumbling holes and that there were no great Danger in the way For this cause therefore M. Iewel that the people of God might be the more a fraid to heare you and beleeue you and to folow your damnable waies I thought it good and expedient in writing against you and against the heresies of our time to vse shâ—rpâ—r wordes and speache of more vehemencie then otherwise I would haue done if I had written to you priuatly or so as knowing that my bookes should haue come to no mannes handes but to yours I knew you would wince and kicke at it But spare not litle care I therefore so that by my labour profite redounde to Christian People For what cause in writing my Confutation of the Apologie I vsed suche verdure of stile as might seme not ouer flatte but tempred with conuenient sharpenesse BEfore I began to set my penne to the paper I considered wel with my selfe what it was to stirre vp such Hurnettes and to prouoke such Waspes to anger Touched I them once were it neuer so gentilly I knew they would straight way flee at my face and buzze about me and that possibly I should not saue my selfe from their stinging Yet hauing a good harte and being right willing for the Truthes sake and for the Defence of Christes Churche to sustaine that Smarte what so euer it should be I tooke aduise with my selfe how to tempre my stile so as bothe Gods cause might seeme sufficiently defended and they not iustly offended Three vvaies of vvriting against an Aduersarie Whereas then there be three wayes of writing against such Aduersaries of the Churche vsed diuersly of the Fathers vpon diuers occasions of time place person and matter of which the one is colde softe meeke lowly and demure an other hote rough sterne and vehement the third tempred with a conuenient mediocritie betwen both though at the firste in my Answer to the Chalenge I inclined more vnto the softe and gentle waye afterward in my Confutation of the Apologie and in my Reioindre I chose the meane that by the one extreme I might not seeme to worke vpon choler and to seeke reuenge rather then Defence of Gods cause by the other to be too abiecte and to shew lesse confidence in our cause to thincouragement of such cockish Aduersaries Now commeth me M. Iewel and medling litle with the matter it selfe and
receiued of the Apostles Howe muche more stronger is that we saie now we folowe that which the Custome of the Church hath euermore holden whiche al this reasoning to and fro hath not ben able to plucke out of mens hartes and last of al which a ful General Councel hath confirmed So highly esteemed S. Augustine those things August li. 2. de Baptisme cap. 9. which M. Iewel of al other maketh lest accompt of And againe he saieth Concilia posteriora prioribus apud posterâ—s praepâ—nuntur Later CouÌ„cels preferred before the former for what cause The posteritie preferreth the Later Councelles before the Former Not as though the later should be contrarie to the former but bicause in the later CouÌ„cels the Church is alwaies better instructed through the contradictions of heretikes by occasion whereof matters are more exactely searched discussed and more clearely opened Like as the flint stoanes being knokte harde together fier flieth out and corne the more ye fifte it the purer it is tried so truthe by our aduersaries Contradictions is beaten out and doubteful pointes by long discussion and search are made plaine and cleare Therefore againe he saith Ibidem .li. 2. cap. 3. Ipsa plenaria Concilia saepe priora posterioribus emendantur cúm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat cognoscitur quod latebat The very former general Councells are oftentimes corrected by the later Councells when as by some trial of maâ—â—er that thing is opened whiche before was close shut vp and that is knowen whiche before laie hid Yeâ— and this is the chiefe and best fruite The benefit and fruite of heresies August in Psal 54. super versum Diuisi sunt prae ira c. that heresies bring vnto the Churche as the same S. Augustine otherwhere declareth where he saith The matter of the blessed Trinitie was neuer wel discussed vntil the Arianâ— barked against it The Sacrament of Penaunce was neuer throughly handled vntil the Nouatians beganne to withstande it Neither the cause of Baptisme was wel discussed vntil the rebaptizing Donatistes arose and troubled the Churche Thus M. Iewel if you geue eare vnto S. Augustine whose example you seeme to claime by you shal learne of him not to refuse and renounce the authoritie of General Councels but to obey them and to yeeld dew reuerence vnto them yea though they be later and as you cal them new Truth draue M. Iewel to iustifie al our Doctrine wherein he dissenteth from vs. The 21. Chap. This oddes therefore remaineth betwen you and vs that our doctrine yea euery pointe thereof in cotrouersie now is by your owne confession approued by the later General Councelles and so we defende no doctrine of our owne nor mainteine any prophane Nouelties of our owne deuise but we folowe Saluberrimam authoritatem the most holesome and sounde authoritie as S. Augustine termeth it of General Councels that is to saie we folowe the voice of the whole bodie of Christes Churche most truely represented in Councelles the voice of Christes spouse yea the voice of Christe him selfe speaking to vs by his Churche and so speaking that he willeth him whiche heareth not the Churche to be accompted for a Heathen Matt. 18. and a Publicane Contrariewise your Doctrine M. Iewel is not only not authorized in General Councelles but also is clearely condemned by the same as for example that one maie serue in steede of many the General Councel of Laterane condemneth your Sacramentarie heresie Yet we thanke not you but the truthe that you haue this muche confessed for vs. And as S. Augustine said of the Donatistes so we saie most truely of you Vt illa omnia vel loquendo vel legendo pro causa nostra promerent atque propalarent Aug. contra Donatist post collat ca. 34. veritas eos torsit non charitas inuitauit That the Donatistes shoulde vtter and bring forthe either by talke or by allegation out of a booke al those thinges for behoofe of our matter the truth forced them it was not any charitie that inuited them The truthe I saie M. Iewel not any loue you beare to our cause forced you to confesse that there is none of our errours so you terme sundry weightie pointes of the Catholike Faith that by some of the late Councelles hath not benne confirmed We take that you geue vs right gladly in asmuch as it declareth you to be conuinced by witnesse of your owne mouthe For if the pointes of Faith and Religion wherein ye dissent from vs be approued and confirmed by authoritie of the Churche in General Councelles who seeth not what a good staffe we haue to leane vnto And who is that Christian man whiche wil not humbly beleue the same The Thirde Booke conteineth a Detection of certaine Lies Cauilles Sclaunders c. vttered by M. Iewel in the second parte of his pretensed Defence Iewel Pag. 88. VVhere ye fantasie that the Bodie of Christe in the Sacramente hath in it selfe neither Fourme nor Proportion nor Limitation of place nor Distinction of partes S. Augustine telleth you Spatia locorum tolle c. Take awaie from Bodies Limitation of place and the Bodies wil be no where Augu. ad DardanuÌ„ epist 57. And bicause they be nowhere they wil be nothing Take awaie from Bodies the qualities of Bodies there wil be no place for them to be in and therefore the same Bodies muste needes be no Bodies at al. Hereof vve maie conclude that the Bodie of Christe vvhich you haue imagined to be contiened grosly and carnally in the Sacrament for as much as by your ovvne confession it hath neither Qualitie nor Quantitie nor Fourme nor place nor proportiâ—â— of Bodie therefore by S. Augustines doctrine it is no Bodie Harding Answer to the Obiection made out of S. Augustine to Dardanus against the real presence of Christes Bodie in the Blessed Sacrament The. 1. Chapt. THE great confidence you haue in S. Augustines two sayinges in his 57. Epistle to Dardanus may much better serue your turne to skirmish with Brentius a Master of youres Brentius the autor of the heresie of the Vbi quetaries and a graund Captaine emong the Lutherans who spareth not by publique write to teache the world that Christes Humanitie is euerie where as his Diuinitie is then against the Catholique doctrine of Christes Bodily presence in the Blessed Sacrament wherein no suche errour is allowed that Christes humanitie should be euery where with his Godhead but it is auouched that Christe by his omnipotent power doth make his Bodie present in as many places as the Blessed Sacrament is duely Natural qualities suspeÌ„ded from Bodies by Goddes special povver Exod. 3. Daniel 3. Exod. 14. and rightly consecrated You are not ignorant M. Iewel but that you know that God by his special power hath suspended from diuers sortes of Bodies sundrie natural Qualities as he did suspende the action of burning from the Fire as wel in the
written if you had not changed the honest worde blame whiche I vsed The honeste vvorde blame by M. Ievvel charged into the filthy vvorde handle into the worde of vnhonest meaning handle whiche you would haue men beleeue that I vsed how should there haue risen of my wordes any opinion of il meaning Verely M. Iewel in your alteration of my wordes and placing in the steede of the worde blame the worde handle that seemed to you to serue better for your filthy purpose to disgrace myne honestie if you coulde there appeareth an euident argument both of false and also of malicious dealing Your very frendes must needes mislike with you if they haue any honestie for this your vnhonest handling You are neuer hable to auoide it cast vpon it what colours you can What woulde you sticke to speake of me were I dead that are not ashamed thus to belie me being a liue and occupied in shewing to the worlde with what impudent lyes ye blotte your papers Yet of al your foule shiftes this is one of the fowlest and such as in common persons is called you know what I am a shamed to speake it you are not a shamed to plaie the parte The Apologie parte 2. Cap. 1. Diuision 2. Pag. 90. VVe beleeue that the holy Ghost vvho is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie is very God not made not created not begotten but proceding from both the Father and the Sonne by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto man and vnspeakeable c. Confutation Cōfut fol. 41. b As we acknowledge this article to be true and Catholike so we demaunde of these Defenders how they can proue the same Haue they either expresse Scripture for it or any of the first foure general Councelles whiche be esteemed of most authoritie We are sure they haue not Therfore we doo them to vnderstand that if they heare vs not we aduertise the Readers that feare God and loue his truthe that al truthe necessarily to be beleeued is not expressed in the Scripture and that other Councelles be to be receiued besides the foure firste whiche are allowed in England by Parlament * Left out by M. Ievvel as that wherein this point touching the Proceding of the holy Ghoste hath benne defined Concil Lugdunen Concil Florentin sub Eugenio 4. as also other definitions of the Church when vpon a new doubte rising an olde Truthe is by later publications declared c. * Iewel Pag. 90. Consider M. Harding notvvithstanding ye euermore tel vs of Fathers Fathers yet hovv contrary oftentimes ye are in iudgement to the same Fathers You saie that the Godhed of the holy Ghoste can not be proued by expresse vvordes of the Scriptures and thereof ye say ye are right sure Harding That M. Iewel is not able to proue by Scripture certaine truthes whiche with the Catholiques he teacheth touching the holy Ghoste What folie is in frowardnesse The. 3. Chapt. it appeareth by M. Iewels trauaile to proue the Godhed of the holy Ghoste by Scriptures which I neuer denied nor euer gaue him such issue to proue But where he confesseth a Trinitie and that the holy Ghost is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie whiche holy Ghost also he confesseth to proceede from the Father and the Sonne though al these partes be true and Catholique yet I saie he is neuer hable to proue any of these pointes by any expresse wordes of the Scriptures Thinges beleeued and yet not expressely writen in Scripture Where can he finde this worde Trinitie in this signification in al Scripture Where hath he this worde Person in this signification in any place of the Scripture Where hath he in any expresse wordes of the Scripture that the holy Ghoste proceedeth from the Father and the Sonne Or where hath he in al the Scripture that the holy Ghost is rather the thirde Person in Trinitie then the seconde These are the pointes that M. Iewel is charged to proue by expresse wordes of Scripture and not that the Holy Ghoste is God The word Transubstantiatiō abhorred bicause it is not foūd in scripture expressely The worde Transubstantiation they abhorre bicause it is no where founde expressely in Scripture and yet they acknowledge the worde Trinitie and the worde Person both First Seconde and Thirde though these wordes be no where founde expressely in these significations in the whole bodie of the Scriptures So can these craftie Iuglers and false peruerters of Goddes truthe doo when they be disposed changing them selues into al manner colours like the beast Chameleon excepte the colour of good meaning and plaine dealing into whiche for any long time they can not change them selues Iewel Pag. 93. I trust Gentle Reader thou vvilt not looke I should ansvver al M. Hardinges ordinarie idle talke So should I loose good time vvithout cause and be ouer troublesome to thine eares O saith he what a world is it to see these Defenders They whiche haue not kepte the Vnitie of spirite in the bande of Charitie whiche S. Paule requireth but haue seuered them selues from the body of the Churche tel vs now forsooth they beleeue that there is one Churche of God O M. Harding if vve haue herein saide il then beare vvitnesse of the il If vvee haue saide vvel vvherefore make you this bitter outcries c. Harding The Protestantes claime by the great visible Churche and by the litle inuisible Churche as it serueth best their turne O M. Iewel if your saying and doctrine were one The. 4. Chapt. I would neuer reprehend you but when you say one thing openly an other thing priuily and haue diuers pointes of secrete Doctrine contrarie the one to the other when ye are driuen to the straightes as now claiming by an inuisible Churche no where appearing many hundred yeres together whiche to say the truthe is no Churche at al and now by your great visible Churche spred abrode in al kingdomes when ye haue made your packe what is this in effecte but in woordes for the time to sette foorth your beleefe of one Churche gloriously and when time wil not beare out this gaie glorious Confession of yours then as your manner is to runne to Corners to seeke some comforte of an vnknowen Inuisible Churche where both the Ministers the preachers the Sacramentes the people and their whole life are al together inuisible In the saying wherof what doo ye elles but vtterly denie that one Churche which ye ought to Confesse Iewel Pag. 93. VVe say See Reader hovv vvel this ghear is proued M. Harding fol. 25. a. that our Doctrine and the Order of our Churches is elder then yours by fiue hundred vvhole yeres and more If ye vvil not beleeue vs yet beleeue M. Harding he vvil tel you euen the same Marke vvel his vvordes These they be It standeth not with Christes promises made to the Churche that he should suffer his Churche to continew in darkenesse these thousand yeres past And
yet this man had he ben in Italie and seene what is there continually donne howe the Exorcistes doo in deede cast forth Deuilles in manner weekely as diuers of our owne Contriemenne that haue ben present can reporte he would for very shame if any were in him haue kepte in that negatiue Verely I feare me he wil one daie procede further and vtterly denie the Order of Bisshops to be necessarie bicause he can franckely say that the Bishops preache not his lustly Caluinian Gospel Yet I trowe he wil be good maister to the Superintendentes of England that be of his owne profession of whom some preache not and some haue not the learning to preache nor yet to tel a wise tale The Apologie Cap. 3. Diuis 2. Pag. 98. Yet notvvithstanding vvee say that there neither is nor can be any one man vvhiche may haue the vvhole superioritie in this Vniuersal state for that Christe is euer presente to assiste his Churche and needeth not any man to supplie his roome as his onely heire to al his Substance and that there can be no one mortal creature vvhiche is hable to comprehende or conceiue in his minde the vniuersal Churche that is to vvit al the partes of the vvorlde muche lesse hable rightly and duely to put them in Order and to Gouerne them Iewel Pag. 98. M. Hardinges ansvvere hereto is too long and tedious Harding I dare wel saie it is too tedious to you and glad would you be to be rid of it if you wist whiche waie Acknowlege the truthe M. Iewel returne from your errour leaue of scoffing suppresse singularitie deliâ—e not in the vaine praises that your ignorant fauourers geue you feare God thinke you can not continue in in this Brauerie alwaies then shal you finde liking in my answere and thinke it nothing to tedious Certaine it is the mater is not so sclenderly to be answered Iewel Pag. 98. VVhere vve saie no one mortal man is hable to vvealde the burthen of the vvhole Churche of God M. Harding ansvvereth vvhere any thing is in deed there vvhether it maie be or not to discusse it is needelesse Therefore vvhether any one man can be superiour and Chiefe ouer the vvhole Church vve leaue to speake that so it is thus vve prooue Euery parishe hath his seueral vicare or person and euerie Diocesâ— his ovvne Bisshâ—ppe Ergo vvhat reason is it there be one Chiefe Gouernour of the vvhole Christen people c. His firste reason concludeth very vveakely Euerie Parishe is Gouerned by one Vicare or Personne and euerie Diocese is gouerned by one seueral Bishop Ergo there is one vniuersal Gouernour ouer the vvhole Churche of Christe Here is neither order in reason nor sequele in nature Therefore of any man vvould denie the argument M. Harding vvere â—â—uer hable to make it good Harding The iustification of this Argument The .10 Chapt. Yeas forsooth the Argument may be proued very wel by this axioma or dignitie in nature vpon the which the Argument is grounded That the whole ought to be gouerned by one general Head whose seueral partes can not be gouerned without seueral Heades If your leisure serue you you may nowe traine the Argument that I was neuer hable to make good as you say for lacke of order in reason and sequele in nature if ye altogether haue not forgotten your Logique whereof you set vs forth so often crakes into the very forme of a good and perfite Syllogisme If your courage then serue you to denie the Argument you shal but disgrace your selfe in denying the groundes of that arte wherein you haue placed a great parte of your glorie and put your selfe to paine to make vs some newe Logique of your owne that menne may trust too Searche diligently the cause without scoffing and wrangling why the seueral partes of the vniuersal Churche Parishes Dioceses prouinces are not hable to be kepte in any good order without seueral heades the selfe cause shal infourme you that the vniuersal Churche may muche lesse be kepte in order without one general Head Render what causes you can M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to auoide it before any learned companie but that the one shal folowe of the selfe same causes as wel as the other Whereas you runne to disprooue myne argument by making the like of euerie kingdome ruled by one Prince inferring Ergo there ought to be one vniuersal Prince to rule ouer the whole worlde I see no such absurditie in the conclusion of this Argument the seueral rightes of Princes reserued vntouched but that if you should talke with Aristotle that great Philosopher you should see good cause to graunt it If there were but one good Monarke in the whole worlde would there not be fewer broilles and warres in the worlde then nowe we feele Perhappes when the matter is wel weighed it may seeme the worlde was neuer in better state then when it was gouerned by one good Emperour Let a iuste Viewe be taken of Constantines time the Great Yet it must be confessed there is great difference betwixt the Ciuile gouernemeÌ„t of Princes who maie be permitted to rule their seueral Dominions without one general Head bicause they haue to do but with thinges of the worlde as with earthly goodes landes and such other thinges which may receiue diuers kindes of rule without danger of Soules and the Ecclesiastical gouernment whose chiefe respect is to keepe vnitie of Faith in the bonde of peace which may not receiue any alteration without great danger to our Saluation Therefore there is greater cause to haue one general Head or Supreme gouernour without whom this vnitie can not be kepte any long time Hiero. aduersus Iouinianum lib. 1. as S. Hierome witnesseth to rule the whole Churche in matters of Saluation then to haue one Head to rule ouer the whole worlde in wordely matters To your other scorneful Argument of one general Shepehearde to be hadde ouer al the flockes of 〈◊〉 throughout the whole world I wil frame answere when you can prooue that God hath as great care to bring al the shepe in the worlde to the selfe same glorie of life euerlasting as he hath to bring menne or that he hath appointed them any one general ende the whiche they can not atteine without the hauing of one general shepeherd to gouerne the whole kinde But S. Paule putteth al suche fonde reasons to silence by this question where he asketh 1. Cor. 9. Nunquid de bobus cura est Deo Hath God any such special care of kine and Oxen as he hath of menne Put vp such shepeherdes pipes for shame M. Iewel and leaue to piper vs vp such trifles If you minde thus to continue euery ignorant Reader at length shal espie what litle good stuffe ye vtter I made not these reasons for that menne should take them for very precise Demonstrations or for that euery one of them alone had ful force to conclude as though the whole weight
Al are committed to thee the one whole flocke to one Neither art thou onely the Pastour of al the sheepe but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours Demaundest thou of me howe I prooue it Forsooth out of the woorde of God Ioan. 21. For I praie you to whom I wil not saie of the Bisshoppes but also of the Apostles were al the sheepe so absolutely and indeterminately committed If thou loue me Peter feede my sheepe whiche sheepe The people of this or of that citie of this or of that countrie or kingdome My sheepe quod he Who now doth not euidently see that Christe did not appointe him certaine but assigned him al Where no distinction is made there nothing is excepted Thus you see how litle cause you had to saie why doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely without farther authoritie Iewel Pag. 103. And if this so large Commission be to Feede and feede so many vvhy then doth the Pope feede so litle Harding The Pope feedeth and why Christe appointed him to be his Vicare The stubbornesse of Heretiques is a lette The .18 Chapt. that his diligent feeding can not take place in many Howe manie Articles of the Christian Doctrine had the peruersitie of Heretiques wrapped vp in a Confusion and brought in doubte that fewe menne knewe howe to vnfolde them The Popes diligent feeding hath so by General Councelles through his authoritie and care assembled vnfolded and disclosed all the false craftes and sleightes of Heretiques that nowe euery man that wil maie haue in a readinesse by perusing the Canons of the Councelles what Doctrine is true and holesome what is false and heretical Of late yeares he emploied his diligence in calling all The Pope feedeth but some refuse his good foode and feede of Poison the Protestantes vnto the Councel of Trent he gaue them safe Conductes to come and departe without danger of their personnes and there during the time of their abode to propone argue and dispute of the pointes in cōtrouersie with al freedome VVhy the Ministers of England vvēt not to the General Councel at Trent most liberal and free Safe cōductes being graunted them But ye of England knowing your owne weaknesse and that ye were not so wel hable to prooue your doctrine in learned Assemblies as ye were with boasting Chalenges and bolde talkes to prate it out of pulpites emong the ignorant at home least with shame ye should there haue ben put to silence and prooued vnlearned wylily absented your selues Notwithstanding libertie was geuen you to come and saie for your Gospel what ye could and as it appeareth in the Actes of the same to frame your safe Conducte if ye desliked the fourme set foorth in the Councel in as ample manner for your owne safegarde and benefite as ye could deuise Iewel Pag. 103. Againe vvhere learned M. Harding to reason thus Christe is ascended into heauen Ergo the Pope is head of the vvhole vvorlde Harding Nay where learned M. Iewel to fashon suche peeuish argumentes of his owne deuise and fathering them vpon his Aduersarie to scoffe at them as if they were of his Aduersaries making If this Argument be naught let him amend it that framed it If it be ridiculous the Reader may see what a ridiculous head he hath that brought it forth My reason dependeth in this sorte If it had pleased Christ to haue remained here visibly emong vs alwaies and to haue taken continual order him selfe for the external gouernment of the Churche we should not haue needed any other general head but Christe him selfe who had ben sufficient But for asmuch as Christes bodily and visible presence through his Ascension was for good purposes taken awaie from vs that we might haue better occasion to exercise faith and the holy Sacramentes it was needeful that in his steede he should leaue some one General Vicegerent In. 24. caput Luca. and Vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose termeth him that should haue ful authoritie to rule the whole Churche The partes of this reason are wel linked together both by diuinitie and also by logique As M. Iewel hath framed it it serueth for nothing but to make sporte emong Prentises I allege not Christes Ascension for the ful and sufficient cause of hauing one general Head as M. Iewel would beare menne in hande if any be so simple to beleeue him The cause vvhy Christe hath placed his Vicare here in his stede Ambros in 24. cap. Lucae but as the occasion why he should place an other in the absence of his Visible person in his steede The necessitie of the Churche that disorder and confusion be auoided and that vnitie be kepte considered together with the great loue that Christe hath to the Churche is the ful cause why Christe placed in his steede a general Vicegerent Vicarium amoris sui the vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose calleth him Iewel Ibidem But ye saie God speaketh not novv vnto vs mouth to mouth c. Harding What rule is like to be if the Scripture be made ruler and gouernour Your drifte is in this place The. 19. Chapt. to put the whole gouernment of the Church quite from the Pope whom Chrysostome as I haue tolde you before taketh to be the vniuersal Head bicause he is S. Peters Successour and to driue vs to deliuer the whole rule vnto the Scripture and that being remoued quite from any one certaine sense and leafte to mennes Phantasies to descant vpon it What vnitie and good Order wil folowe thereof they of Germanie ye of England the Lutherans the Zuinglians the Caluinistes the Osiandrines the Zuencfeldians the Anabaptistes the new Puritanes that now spring vp so freshly and other sectes wherewith the worlde swarmeth haue tolde vs already the whiche could neuer yet come to any good vnitie and common agreement Ye leaue vs also an other sorte of gouernours Apostles Ephes 4. Prophetes Euangelistes Pastours and Doctours of whom S. Paule speaketh If these be the Gouernours appointed by holy Scripture how falleth it out that ye contrary to Scripture haue geuen the supreme gouernment of your Church of England to laye Princes some being vnder their nources gouernance some being women The cas◠thus standing if the Ministers agree not in doctrine hovv shal vnitie be made and the people kepte vnpoisoned If these forenamed the Apostles c. be the right gouernours how happeth it that they can doo nothing concerning Order to be taken for the Churche but by authoritie deriued from a mere laie power If these that is to saie the successours of the Apostles Prophetes c. be the right gouernours what if any of these iarre and fal at square emong them selues as it hath oftentimes ben seene either within the compasse of one Realme or in diuers Realmes and doo poison the people with sundry Heresies to whom shal we resorte to haue them called home and reduced vnto order whom haue
you least vs in this case as Iudge and supreme Gouernour to ende al Dissensions and to condemne perilous Heresies They of Germanie take them selues to be as good menne and to knowe the Truth as wel if no better as either D. Parker of Canturburie or M. Grindal of London or Bacheler Yonge of Yorke or any of the other wiued Priestes Monkes and Friers yea as M Iew. of Sarisburie him selfe Ye of England wil not yelde to them of Saxonie they of Lifeland Swethen Denmarke Pole Scotland Zuitzerland and Geneua wil not yelde them selues subiectes to either of you both And yet euery one of these sundry congregations wil preach stil the doctrine of their owne secte one coÌ„trarie to an other How now M. Iewel Let vs heare what wise tale you caÌ„ tel vs by whose authoritie we maie come from these great Dissensions and manifold Schismes to Vnitie Intreatie can not doo it Colloquies meetinges and Conferences of the learned of eche secte can not bring it to passe The more it hath ben attempted the worse ende hath euer benne concluded Haue not you leaft vs then a beautiful Church a blessed coÌ„panie of Ministers that wil not come to Order Yea leauing vs without any lawful authoritie of one Head to reduce vs to vnitie do you not leaue vs in endlesse strifes and indeterminable broilles Be we not much bound vnto you Were not the worlde wise and wel aduised to forsake al old orders and to put coÌ„fidence in this your new deuise The same selfe S. Chrysostome whom you allege to haue al ruled by the Scriptures sawe a litle farther then you see M. Iewel when he said that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter Chrysost in Matth. Homil. 55. Ambros in cap. 24. Luca. Theodoritus in Epist ad Renatum Cyprianus lib. 3. Epist 13. So did S. Ambrose when he named Peter and by a consequent Peters Successour the Vicare of Christes loue So did Theodoritâ—â— when he said the See of Rome holdeth the sterne and hath the gouernment of the Churches of the whole worlde You allege S. Cyprian though farre otherwise then he writeth and that out of that epistle in whiche he willeth Stephanus the Pope to depose Martianus the Bishop of Arles in Fraunce for Heresie and put an other in his roome whiche argueth a supreme authoritie of gouernment in the Pope you allege him I saie as if he said that therefore there are many Bishoppes in the Churche that if one fal into heresie the rest maie helpe But what if there be as many Heretique Bishoppes as there be Catholique as it hath commonly benne seene in the East Churche What if the Heretiques being more learned wil not yeelde Cyprian ad Cornelium lib. 1. Epist. 3. S. Cyprian in an other place spareth not to tel you that Schismes aÌ„d heresies rise of no other cause then for that the whole brotherhed that is to saie the companie of Christian people Obeye not one high Prieste that is in Christes steede Whiche saying by what reason it taketh place in euery seueral Dioces by the same it is to be vnderstanded in respecte of the whole worlde For as Heresies rise of disobedience of the people to their Bishop so they rise no lesse yea rather muche more as experience teacheth of the disobedience of the Bishoppes them selues if they wil not be vnder one Head And as the people are not kepte in vnitie but by being vnder one Bishop so neither the Bishoppes excepte they be likewise vnder one chiefe Head and ruler who is the Successour of Peter to whom as louing Christe more then the reste whiche the Scripture sheweth the charge not onely of the lambes and weaker sheepe but also of the great and stronger sheepe was committed as S. Ambrose before alleged hath wel noted Whether S. Peter were faulte worthy when S. Paule reproued him as you tel vs without proufe Defence pag. 103. it remaineth in question betwixte S. Augustine and S. Hierome But if there were any thing worthy of reprehension in S. Peter that S. Paule sawe there was great humilitie in S. Peter to agnise the faulte by the warning of his inferiour Likewise there was in S. Victor the Pope in that he would geue eare vnto S. Ireneus Of that S. Peters humilitie thus speaketh S. Cyprian in his epistle to Quintus whiche is also rehearsed of S Augustine August li. 2. de Baptis cont Donatist cap. 1. Nam nec Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem aedificauit Ecclesiam suam cùm secum Paulus de Circumcisione disceptaret postmodum vendicauit sibi aliquid insolenter aut arroganter assumpsit vt diceret se primatum tenere obtemperari à nouellis posteris sibi potius debere Example of humilitie to S. Peter For neither Peter whom our Lorde chose to be first and vppon whom he builded his Churche at what time Paule reasoned with him about Circumcision by and by chalenged any thing proudly vnto him selfe or stately tooke ought vpon him as to saie that he helde the Primacie or the chiefe rule ouer al and that suche as came newly to the Faith and were his aftercommers ought rather to obeie him But this kinde of humilitie is not found emong Heretiques The more courteously they be warned of their Heresie the more stubborne they growe and staie not so but doo the vttermost they can to make their parties as good as the Catholiques as by sundry olde heretiques to them that haue reade the Trâ—gedies by them plaied in the Churche is most euident How now M. Iewel What remedie Shal we resorte in this case to any Head that hath General authoritie or stand stil iarring and snarling the one at the other without alremedie For ought I see you are like to leaue vs stil in the briers Touching your gloses of the Canon Lawe they maie perhappes one daie if it shal be thought worth the labour be altogether answered in some one seueral treatise where doubtelesse it shal appeare to your smal estimation with what beggerly ragges and clowtes you haue patched together your clowted cloke Iewel Pag. 104. For the rest M. Harding saith One King is hable to rule one Kingdome Ergo one Pope is hable to rule the vvhole Churche Harding My talke runneth not so bare as you rehearse it your grace is alwaie to reporte worse then you finde I said that a King or Queene in gouerning a Realme ruleth not al in his owne person but doth many thinges by his Deputees and Officers Euen so why maie not the Pope in al Christendome take order by other fitte menne hauing from him commission notwithstanding his person be not present For very shame M. Iewel make not your Aduersaries tale worse then you finde it For by that you must muche discredite your cause Iewel Pag. 104. Of the gouernment of Princes vve haue daielie practise But of Popes that euer vsed this vniuersal Dominion ouer the vvhole Church of
God M. Harding is not hable to shevve vs one Harding The gouernment of the whole Churche exercised by the Popes actually If the Popes manner had benne to bring menne in subiection by the Sworde and force of Armes The 20. Chapt. as it is not whiche thing Kinges haue vsed to doo then had ye as wel knowen the Popes Vniuersal Gouernment whiche you had rather cal Dominion by practise as you doo nowe knowe the Kinges Or were it so that ye fealte so sensibily the paine of Excommunication as ye doo the tormentes that Kinges vse against Rebelles when they once drawe their sworde of correction you would muche more feare to offende the Pope then ye doo now the force of Princes But your manner is alwaies to feare him that hath the sensible rodde in his hande ready at a worde to geue the stroke the Pope bicause he vseth long patience before he striketh and when he striketh his stroke bringeth no bodily paine but causeth a spiritual separation of mannes soule for his contumacie from the vnitie of the Church and from God whiche is not sensibly fealte therefore ye feare to offende Princes and vtterly set nought by the Popes autoritie But what if none of the Popes hitherto euer exercised their vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole Churche of God whiche in deede is not true is theâ—â— right therefore any thing the lesse Not at al. The Duke of Sauoie you know hath in right the Dominion and rule of Geneua yet they of the towne suche is the spirite that your holy Gospel breatheth into the people like errant Rebelles haue kept him out of his right many yeres And what if this be not true that you saie What if diuers Popes maie be named that haue ruled the whole Churche both the East and the Weast as farre as any Christian Emperour extended his Dominion Maie you not then reuoke your stoute assertion You haue read I suppose of the great councel of Chalcedon vnder Pope Leo and of the great Councel of Lateran vnder Innocentius tertius and the Councelles of Florence and of Lions How saie you I praie you finde ye not there that the Greeke Churche as wel as the Latine Churche agnised the Popes Supremacie I denie not but that a fewe Heretiques or Schismatiques perhappes might disobeie him at certaine time and in certaine places But what then So doo rebelles oftetimes disobeye their Princes His authoritie notwithstanding tooke place through the whole Churche emong obedient Christians Iewel Pag. 104. But God be thanked it appeareth already to al them that haue eyes to see that vve haue not departed from the seruile obedience of that See But vpon iust cause and good aâ—ise Harding The 21. Chapt. Yea God wote vpon as iuste causes as they of Germanie rebelled against Charles the fift that noble Prince theire lawful Emperour or if ye list vpon as iust causes as they of Geneua departed from the Duke of Sauoie their lawful Prince or if ye wil wade farther vpon as iust causes as the Huguenotes of Fraunce haue to remoue their lawful king from the godly and accustomed gouernment of his realme by open rebellion now the second time What you accompte seruile obedience Seruile obedience I know not but of this I am wel assured that such gouernment as ye and they of your spirite vse in some places when the worlde serueth your turne for the establishing of your Gospel to worke your policies maie wel be called a yoke made of harde yron whereas the Popes yoke if it must needes be called a yoke Yoke of iron yoke oâ— wood bicause ye speake of seruile obedience is but of softe wood that is to saie light and easie As al theeues would gladly departe from the obedience of their lawful Iudge and cal it Seruile if that might be allowed euen so al suche aduersaries of the Catholique Churche can thinke euery smal cause yea being no iust cause at al sufficient to departe from the obedience of the Pope the chiefe Pastour whose office is to condemne al their Heresies as al your Heresies at this daie are condemned in the Councel of Trent by the Popes authoritie Touching the argument you make à contrario sensu Pag. 104. out of the wordes of Calixtus Epistle in Gratian if you had foreseene the folie of it I dare saie Distinct 12. Non decet M Iewelâ— ArgumeÌ„â— you would neuer haue printed it for very shame The argument is this What so euer is done without discretion of Iustice against the order of the Churche of Rome it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what soeuer is done by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be againâ—â— the Order of the Churche of Rome yet ought it to be wel allowed First your duetie had benne to haue laied the causes of your departure from the Churche of Rome before some lawful Iudge and haue proued the causes so alleged both true and iuste and not to make your selues iudges both of the sufficiencie of the causes and of your departure Nexte your duetie had benne to haue weighed wel this Argument whether it receiueth any deceitful sophistication The folie of M. Ievvelles argument shevved by the like either in it selfe or in his like Is this argument trowe ye good M. Iewel What so euer thing is donne without discretion of Iustice against the order of Goddes lawe it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what so euer is donne by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be against the Order of Goddes lawe yet ought it to be wel allowed And yet is this argument in al pointes like yours Suche Diuinitie suche Logique Wel maie this Logique be allowed in your new schoole at Geneua in any learned Vniuersitie of Christendome certainely it wil not be allowed Looke what faulte ye can finde in the later Argument the same maie ye finde in your owne This later maie be a glasse vnto you to beholde your folio in the first The Glose expressely founde contrarie to M. Iew. Verely where you founde these wordes in Gratian euen there in your owne Glose vpon GratiaÌ„ you found your Argument disproued with these very wordes Hic vacat argumentum à contrario sensu Here the argument deduced of the contrarie sense is voide and holdeth not This you saw or your gatherer for you Yet you would it should out be it taken wel or otherwise Thus you delight to be striking though we can soone heale your woundes For so you thinke to persuade the simple that ye haue muche matter against vs. The places of S. Augustine and of Pius that you allege Pag. 104. make nothing against the Pope therefore I marueile why you allege them seruing you to so litle purpose Perhaps this may be your manner of reasoning S. Augustine would not haue vs to geue ouer to any Bishops be they neuer so Catholique if they happely be deceiued and be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture Ergo
we maie not beleeue the Pope if he be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture Why did not you first proue that the Pope hath determined against the Canonical Scriptures wherin the whole weight of the mater lieth But your lucke is alway to leaue that vnproued which you should chiefly prooue and to encomber the Reader most with matters impertinent and quite besides the issue S. Augustines place would haue serued better to conclude that menne ought not to beleeue Heretiques whiche are certainely deceiued if they maie not beleeue Catholiques when they be deceiued But then where were your credite become who are proued to be suche Wolues and Traitours as S. Bernard spake of in Goncilio Remensi whiche Councel you allege so often times Pag. 104. Iewel Pag. 107. S. Hierome saithe Dices super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia Hieron Aduersus Iouinian lib. 1. Licet idipsum in alio loco super omnes Apostolos fiat cuncti claues regni coelorum accipiant ex aequo super omnes Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur Ye vvel saie The Churche is founded vpon Peter Notvvithstanding in an other place the same thing is donne vpon al the Apostles and al receiue the keies of the kingdome of heauen and the strengthe of the Churche is founded equally vpon them al. Harding M. Iewel allegeth this and other places to his owne confusion The. 22. Chapt. What il fortune hath M. Iewel euer to allege the Fathers to his owne shame That so he doth it appeareth by many other and by this very place of S. Hierome against Iouinian whiche he allegeth maimedly cutting of the halfe sentence For the other halfe sentence is this tamen propterea inter duodecim vnus eligitur vt Capite constituto Schismatis tollatur occasio Yet emong the twelue there is one chosen out to thintent he being ordeined Head the occasion of Schisme be taken awaie Thus S. Hierome there If I had nipte of such a notable peece of a sentence M. Iewel would haue benne at me with the Chinecough c. It had serued S. Hieromes turne better reasoning against Iouinian the Heretique who affirmed the state of Virgins to be of no greater perfection then the state of married personnes as M. Iewel doth also at this daie which heresie S. Hierome confuted neuer to haue graunted that S. Peter who had ben a married man was ordeined to be the Head of the Churche if it had benne as M. Iewel would persuade But bicause the truth was that S. Peter was appointed Head emong the Apostles S. Hierome doth not denie it but sheweth the cause why he was preferred before S. Ihon the Euangelist This is M. Iewels plaine dealing What is falsehod if this be not falsehod Iewel Pag. 107. S. Chrysostome of Peter saith thus Crysost in Matth. hâ—mil 83. Duplex crimen erat tum quia repugnauit tum quia caeteris seipsum praeposuit Peter vvas in double faulte bothe for that â—e vvithstoode Christe and also fâ—r that he set him selfe before the reste Harding The common saying is the blinde eateth many a flie Euen so doth M. Iewel for lacke of dewe consideration deuoure many a soule errour S. Chrysostome hath not one iote in this place that maketh for M. Iewel He speaketh of that stoute confidence that Peter had of him selfe when he said Mat. 26. Tvvo faultes coÌ„mitted by S. Peter Zacha. 13 Although they al meaning the reste of the Apostles shal be offended by thee I wil not be offended by thee Neuerthelesse he offended twise saith S. Chrysostome First in that he withstoode Christe and considered not what was alleged out of Zacharie the Prophet before who said I wil smite the shepeheard and the sheepe shal be scattered Yet S. Peter were it for the great loue and the affection that he bare to his Maister or were he touched with some ambition and trusted to wade through of him selfe without farther helpe of special grace warranted the mater that he would neuer fal from Christe There is one of his faultes The other faulte is Quoniam praeposuit se illis bicause he prefered him selfe before the other Apostles What meaneth that M. Iewel saie you What so euer you would menne should thinke of it it maketh no mater The right meaning of the place is that Peter offended the second time bicause he thought him selfe more sure as touching standing to his Maister then al the reste of the Apostles What is this to the meaning that you would faine wring out of this place that Peter was not Head of the Apostles In the selfe same Homilie before S. Chrysostome calleth him verticem Apostolorum the very Head and chiefest of al the Apostles EtiaÌ„ ipsum ApostoloruÌ„ verticem negare permisit Christ suffered saith he the toppe or head him selfe of the Apostles to denie him Againe S. Chrysostome faithe in an other Homilie as is afore tolde that Peter had committed vnto him the charge Chrysost hom 55. in Matt. and gouernment of the whole worlde Thus you may see how al thinges go against the heare as they say with you M. Iewel thus alwaies to allege suche sayinges out of the Fathers as further not your cause but rather hinder it So shal al they doo that fight against the Truth Ievvel Pag 107. Augustin epist 86. S. Augustine maketh Peter Felovve and Equal vvith the other Apostles Inter seconcorditer vixerunt Petrus Condiscipuli eius Peter and his felovves liued agreably together Harding Peter felow Disciple with the rest and yet Head of al by S. Augustine The 23. Chapt. Peter and they that were Christes Disciples with him liued concorditer for that is S. Augustines worde in good concorde together I graunt what conclude you thereof So did Christe and the Apostles liue in concorde and agreably together and yet there was a difference betwen them pardy If you harpe vpon the terme Condiscipuli Ioan. 15. Matt. 28. whiche you interprete felowes Christe calleth his Apostles in one place his frendes and in an other place his brothers And yet euery wise man confesseth a difference and that Christe was their Head and that they were his Disciples and subiectes Euen so maie we iudge of this Felowship that was betwen Peter and the reste of the Apostles How be it in the selfe same Epistle of S. Augustine S. Peter is called Caput Apostolorum Coeli ianitor Ecclesiae fundamentum Augustin epist 86. The Head of the Apostles the porter of Heauen and the foundation of the Churche Which saying not being S. Augustines owne but an other mans yet his sileÌ„ce in not speaking against it in that place proueth that he doth wel allow it And that to be euen so the same S. Augustine in a Sermone whiche he made to the people vnto whom he spake alwaies without al obscuritie the plaine truth calleth S. Peter Head of the Churche saying Augustin de tempo Ser. 124. Head of the churche Totius corporis
morbum in ipso capite componit Ecclesiae in ipso vertice componit membrorum omnium sanitatem in Petroscilicet illo qui dixerat etiam si oportuerit me mori tecum non te negabo He cureth the sickenes of the whole body in Peter the very head it selfe of the Churche and in the very crowne of the head it selfe he setteth in order the health of al the members I meane in the selfe same Peter that had said Although I were driuen to die with thee Mat. 26. I wil neuer denie thee Iewel And the very Ordinarie Glose geueth these vvordes to S. Paule Non didici ab aliis tanquam à maioribus sed contuli cum illis Gloss Galat 2. tanquam cum amicis paribus I learned not of Peter and others as of my betters but I had conference with them as with my Equalles and frendes Harding Difference betwen learning and conferring together Had M. Iewel learnedly considered the difference The 24. Chapt. that is bewixt learning and conferring he would neuer for very shame haue alleged thâ—s place of the Ordinarie Glose In learning the teacher is of greater dignitie In conferring what soeuer the personnes otherwise are either of one dignitie or of diuers as touching the act of conference they make them selues equal as doth the King with his Counsel when they laie their heades together to boult out one mater Yet no man maie thereof reason that there is no difference of state betwixte the King and them of his Counsel or that euery of the Counsel is of equal state one with an other What neede S. Paule had of S. Peter to haue matters decided by his authoritie Actâ— 15. it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles when he with Barnabas and others were sent from Antioche to Hierusalem to know whether the Gentiles were bounde to be circumcised But M. Iewels happe is alwaies to fal vpon places that bringe him smal worship or aduantage of his cause The Apologie Part. 2. Cap 3. Diui. 4. pag. 107. It vvas said indifferently to them al feede ye c. Confutation Wee denie that it was said indifferently to them al Feede ye Iohan. 21. yea or that it was said at al Feede ye To Peter and none elles was it said Feede my lambes Feede my sheepe .. Which worde of Feeding so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles proueth that it was not indifferently said to al Feede ye Iewel Pag. 107. It forceth not greatly vvhat M. Hardinge denie or graunte hauing neither reason nor autoritie but onely his ovvne But if povver vvere not geuen indifferently to al the Apostles tel vs then vvherein is the â—ddes VVhat had Peter more VVhat had the others lesse Or vvhat olde Doctour or learned Father euer savv this difference Harding M. Iewel is tolde where he maie finde his demaundes answered and are also here answered in parte Though we tel you this The 25. Chapt. and proue it neuer so plainely yet stil wil you wrangle The Fathers haue infinite places for Peters preeminence aboue the rest as I haue partely here but more largely in my Answer Ansvver to your Chalenge shewed Article 4. Yea the selfe same places of the Fathers that you allege to proue the contrarie apparently within few lines after doo vtterly and in plaine wordes so refute you as your selfe knowe that for very shame you durst not to allege any whole place of certaine the olde Fathers but Iewishly lefte them circumcised as I haue shewed before in sundry allegations of S. Hierome of S. Chrysostome of S. Augustine and of others wherby the Reader hath a viewe and maie conceiue what you haue done in the reste And yet suche is your impudencie as though you walked inuisible and none were hable to detecte your false dealing you cal importunately vpon vs to shewe the oddes and to tel you what authoritie Peter had more then the reste And to declare what olde Father euer sawe any suche difference If it maie please you to reade the fourth Article of my Answere to your Chalenge M.D. Saunders booke entitled the Rocke of the Churche and M. Stapletons Returne of your Vntruthes vpon you in iustificatioÌ„ of Vntruthes which you impute vnto mee there maie you haue moe olde Fathers then ye haue yet or euer shal be hable to make reasonable answer vnto A most plain and euident testimonie of the Popes Primacie ouer al the vvorlde Chrysost homil 1. de poeniteÌ„tia In the meane time tel vs what S. Chrysostome meant when he said thus in his first homilie de poenitentia Ecclesiae primatum gubernationemque Petro per vniuersum mundum Christus tradidit Christ hath deliuered vnto Peter the primacie and gouernment of the Churche through the whole worlde When ye can shewe vs suche a plaine testimonie out of any Father that S. Peter had not the primacie and supreme gouernment deliuered vnto him by Christ you shal seeme to saie somewhat Iewel Pag. 107. 108. Christe saide equally vnto them al. Receiue the holy Ghoste whose sinnes ye forgeue they are forgeuen Goe into the whole worlde Preache the Gospel to euery creature These vvordes perceiue equally vnto al. Peter had no more the holy Ghoste no more povver to forgeeue sinnes no more commission to go into the vvhole vvorlde no more authoritie to preache the Gospel then others had Harding Why are you so copious in bye maters wherein I neuer striued with you and so barrein in the principal mater that lieth in controuersie betwixte vs Equal power was graunted to the Apostles to gather the Church this was neuer denied you But their power was not equal to rule the Church after that it was gathered from euery coaste of the worlde The which point you disproue not Iewel Pag. 108. M. Harding saithe To the Reste of the Apostles it vvas not said at al Iohan. 21. Feede ye To Peter and to none els vvas it said Feede my Lambes Feede my sheepe Yet Christe him selfe saithe Quod vni dico omnibus dico Marc. 13. That I saie to one I saie to al. Harding M. Iewel fouly falsifieth the worde of Christ him selfe What M. Iewel wil ye neuer leaue your falsifying The 26. Chapt. And are ye not a fraide to corrupte the holy Worde of the Sonne of God him selfe Is our cause so good and substantial that ye can make no shewe of truthe a-against it but by foule corruption of the Scripture Where is this written Be ye not a fraide for your aduantage to deceiue the worlde with Scripture of your owne making And were it true that S. Marke had so written how can you wreste it to your purpose Thus it is good Reader Our Sauiour gaue a general warning not onely to the Apostles but to al menne beleeuing in him to be watcheful against our Lordes comming which shal be suddeinely at suche time as they know not and therefore said Vigilate
whiche beare the name of Christians And to the Apostles Christe said Matt. 28. I am with you al daies vntil the worldes ende If he be with them til the ende they likewise are in the worlde til the worldes ende But they liued not so long in this worlde therefore it is meant that from age to age and from man to man Christe will haue alwayes some to sitte in the Chaieres and Seates of his Apostles by ordinarie Succession vntil the worldes ende Of this Succession Dauid in the person of Christ spake in spirite saying to the Church For thy Fathers Psal 44. Sonnes are borne vnto thee Thou shalt ordeine them the Chiefe Gouernours ouer al the earth The Church answereth I shal be mindeful o Lorde of thy name in euery Generation and Generation therefore the peoples shal geue praise and thankes to thee for euer and from age to age .. So that the cause why the Churche continueth are the Gouernours by God appointed vnto it and as the Churche continueth from age to age so do they gouerne from age to age For the Visible Flocke of shepe can not long lacke their Visible shepeheard at any time but that the Wolues wil enter in and disperse them a sunder Iewel VVhen Christ beganne to refourme their abuses and errours they said to him Luc. 20. Mark 11. Beda in Lucam li. 5. cap. 80. by vvhat povver doest thou these thinges and vvho gaue the this authoritie vvhere is thy Succession Vpon vvhiche vvordes Beda saith They vvould haue the people vnderstand for that he had no solenne Succession that al that he did vvas of the Deuil Harding See vvhat cōueiāce M. Ievv vseth to helpe his cause Scarse one line hath passed your handes into the whiche you haue nor conueied of your owne head the worde Succession Whereas neither S. Luke nor S Mathew nor S. Marke nor S. Paule nor S. Hierome nor the Pharisees nor Bede whom you allege vsed that worde at al. But to make your tale sound against Succession M. Ievv falsifieth al his testimonies you driue al to that point and thereby you falsifie euery place that you bring as euery man shal finde who doth conferre the matter with the Originals and so al your Defence standeth vpon fialsified Authorities But our cause God be praised for it is so strong Christes true Succession that we neede not to care though al that were true whiche you allege For albeit the Pharisees would not harken to Christes Succession yet in deede he Succeded lineally to al the Kinges and Patriarkes and thereby to the Priestes also of the best Order to wit of the Lawe of nature and not of the Law of Moyses whiche was an inferiour Lawe in respecte of that of Nature Christ therefore had not onely a most perfite Succession which is described in the Gospel from Adam til Ioseph the husbande of the Virgin Marie but also with that his Succession he stopped al the mouthes of his Enemies For thus he said to them VVhat thinke you of Christe that is of your Messias whom you looke for Matt. 22. VVhose Sonne is he They say to him the Sonne of Dauid Christ saith to them Psal 109. How then doth Dauid cal him Lorde in spirite saying The Lord hath said to my Lord sit at my right hand vntil I put thy enemies as a foote stoole vnder thy feete If then Dauid cal him Lorde how is he his Sonne And no man was hable to answer him a worde Neither durst any manne after that daye aske him any moe questions Here it is first to be noted that the Scribes and Pharisees knew Christ to haue a Succession from Dauid For his Sonne they said he must be Therefore M. Iewel in making the Pharisees to acknowledge no Succession of his hath corrupted the texte of the Gospel and vttered a great Vntruthe The Pharisees knew that Christe should succede in the very beste line but they would not attende nor consider how that Succession was now brought to passe in the Sonne of Marie who being of the howse of Dauid had miraculously brought forth Christe the perfite ende of the Lawe So likewise M. Iewel knoweth that the Churche of Christe must needes haue a perpetual Succession but he wil not consider how it is preserued chiefely in the Chaier of Peter Ioan. 21. to whom aboue al others the sheepe of Christ were committed Wel Christe then geuing the Iewes to vnderstand that he succeeded in the line of Dauid Christ not only the Sonne of Dauid but also the Sône of God would haue had them farther to consider that he also was the sonne of God and so shewed that he who was Dauids Sonne was also called the Lord of Dauid his Sonne by flesh his Lord by Godhed which thing did put them al to silence Euen so that weake mortal and some time miserable and sinful man whome sitting at Rome M. Iewel despiseth when he heareth him to be according to the gifte of God the Vicare of Christes loue as S. Ambrose calleth him in feeding his shepe Ambr. in cōmment in Luc. c. 24. and the Successour of the chiefe Apostle he is surely astoined at it and would be put to silence if he were not worse then a Pharisee For admitting that the Pope were not S. Peters Successour but onely one of the lowest Bishoppes of Christes Churche yet who would not woonder to see him keepe his Succession so notably fiften hundred yeres together wheras al the Patriarkes and thousandes of Bishops besides are so mangled and so brought to nought But now if wee adde hereunto that the same is euen by our enemies confession and euer was the first See how muche more ought they to woonder at the special prouidence of God in that behalfe Therefore euen as it was miraculous that the line of Dauid was so notably preserued in so many changes and captiuities of the Iewes right so may we say of the Bishoppes of Rome in suche sorte as smaller thinges doo imitate the greater and may in their manner be compared to the greater Iewel Cyrillus frameth the Pharisees vvordes in this sorte Cyrillus in Cathen in Luc. 20. Thou Being of the tribe of Iuda and therefore hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthood takest vpon thee the office that is committed vnto vs. Harding Here againe you adde these wordes hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthode of your owne head M. Ievv falsifieth Cyrillus by adding vvordes of his ovvne Howbeit euen there Cyrillus sheweth that Christe had right by Succession which you should not haue conceeled had you dealt truly For there it foloweth Sed si nouisses ô Pharisee scripturas recoleres quòd hic est Sacerdos qui secundùm ordinem Melchisedech offert Deo in se credentes per cultum qui legem transcendit O thou Pharisee Christe had right also by successiō if thou haddest knowen the Scriptures thou wouldest remember that this
the Scriptures or of the auncient Fathers M. Iewel meant to shewe that by Gods worde we might forsake our Predecessours examples But S. Cyprian rather sheweth that if our predecessours be taken as they ought to be taken that is to say for those that keepe the tradition and doctrine of the Apostles that then their Tradition is Gods worde Goddes VVord not written For he putteth it to be Gods owne worde that Christe offered his Chalice mingled of water and wine Yet of water there is no mention in the storie of the Supper In what worde then is it written that Christe had water in his Chalice Verely in the worde of Apostolike Tradition TraditioÌ„ in the vnwritten word in the worde of General Succession For in al Churches he sawe water mingled with wine and being assured that the Apostles who saw Christe to do it taught it so doubted not to say that our Lorde taught vs by his example and worde to mingle water with wine and so to offer the Chalice Verely you were farre ouerseene M. Iewel when you alleged this example as being suche whereby your selfe and al them of your side are vtterly condemned And what should ye do Except ye would repeÌ„t which God graunt if it be his wil ye must needes adde lye vnto lye without ende or measure or geue ouer the enterprise wherof you made your boasting ChaleÌ„ge Iewel CoÌ„pare the vse of our Churches M. Harding vvith the Primitiue Church of God and ye shal easily see the right of our Succession Harding Diuersitie betvven the primitiue Churche and the Churches of this nevve Gospel Rom. 10. Ioan. 20. Tit. 1. Damasus in pontifi VVho sendeth you M. Ievvel who sent your felovves Ioan. 10. If I should compare your Churches with the Primitiue Churche of God so narrowely as I might from the beginning to the ending we should finde scant any shadowe in your Churches of the Primitiue Church There no man preached but he that was lawfully sent as S. Paule saith And sent he was either of Christ visibly and sensibly speaking vnto him as when he said to the Apostles as my Father sent me I send you or els by the Apostles as when S. Paule sent Titus and Timotheus and S. Peter sent S. ClemeÌ„t and so S. ClemeÌ„t afterward sent others and so froÌ„ man to man Now tel vs who sendeth you to preach Not the Bishops which are the Successours of the Apostles whom ye despise Who then Forsooth one is sent of the common Weale which neuer had power to send him an other of the Ciuil Magistrate who also had no such power An other runneth before he be sent and therefore commeth of him selfe and is an Antichriste Moreouer the Apostles and their scholars preached that Irenaus lib. 4. c. 3. which they had heard preached whether it were written or no as S. Irenaeus witnesseth But you wil haue nothing preached except it be written and neuerthelesse yee preache that which is neither written nor deliuered you by Apostolike Tradition but as euery vaine Iustin in Apolog. 2. Lib. 4. cap. 32. light and idle braine imagineth of it selfe They mingled water with wine so doo not you They taught the Supper of our Lorde to be the new oblation of the new TestameÌ„t as saith S. Irenaeus You saie there is no external Oblation of the new Testament beside Christes death In the Primitiue Churche he that had ben twise maried Tit. 1. could not be Priest according to S. Paules doctrine You teache it to be lawful to make him Priest that hath ben ten times married and onlesse euery Priest 1. Timo. 5. and Minister among you be married ye iudge not wel of him S. Paule speaketh of olde Widowes who might marrie no more you haue none such But what ende shall there be of wordes If I would go thorough an hundred articles together it should appeare that ye haue nothing like the Apostles or like the Primitiue Churche There were Exorcismes Insufflations holy Oile holy Chrisme Incense Altares De Eccles Hierarchia as we read in S. Dionysius of al whiche ye haue not one and condemne the hauing of them They fasted a certaine number of daies as they who keeping the example of Christe fasted the forty daies Ignatius Epist ad PhilippeÌ„s Actor 2. 4. et 5 Math. 19. whiche we cal the Lenten Faste They prayed watched gaue away al their goodes and vowed so to doo they vowed chastitie and most exactly perfourmed the same they commended the Dead to God with praiers almose and Sacrifices whiche thinges ye for the most parte despise and accompt superstitious Iewel 133. S. Cyprian saith Si canalis aquae c. If the pipes of the conduit Ad Pompeium contra Epist Stephani which before ranne with abundance happen to faile do we not vse to search to the head The priestes of God keeping Gods commaundementes must doo the same that if the truth hath fainted or failed in any point we returne to the very original of our Lorde and to the Tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that there hence we may take the discretion of our dooinges from whence the order it selfe and original first beganne Harding S. CypriaÌ„ alleged by M. Ievvel in an il cause The errour of S. Cyprian It is to be knowen M. Iewel that S. Cyprian vsed this saying in an euil cause as your selfe can not denie And therefore he defending a falshood was driuen to the very same shiftes whereunto al Heretikes are driuen He in deede was no Heretike For although he falsely beleued an vntruth and earnestly taught that those who had ben baptized of Heretiques if they came to the vnitie of the Catholike Churche should be baptized as hauing before no true sacrament of Baptisme yet he protested many times that he iudged no man that thought or taught the contrarie Cyprianus In epist ad IubatanuÌ„ contra Epist Stephani For he would not denie vnitie neither for that nor for any thing elles but liued a true Catholique and died a blessed Martyr Notwithstanding whiles he defended his errour he was deceiued in that Principle which now you allowe For whereas Pope Stephanus knowing that by SuccessioÌ„ the vse of the only laying of handes vpon them that had ben baptized of heretikes without baptizing them a new was deriued from the Apostles and receiued generally euen in Afrike it selfe vntil Agrippinus a Bishop of Carthage before S. Cyprian brake it whereas Pope Stephanus I say knowing this decreed that nothing should be changed or be taken vp a new S. Cyprian not being able to denie the tradition whereof Pope Steuen spake and which S. Cyprians predecessour Agrippinus first beganne to change fled to this common place that the worde of God was against the custome and therefore the custome ought to be broken The Pope defended with diuers other Bishops thâ—t the custome and Tradition was not against Gods worde Then said S. Cyprian
his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt but of the Pope and his vvord they say in any vvise vve maie not doubt Harding Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued no man doubteth thereof But onely what is the meaning thereof And then besides to vnderstand it the better we ioine vniuersal tradition with it and in al further doubtes we say the Pope or the General Councel is the highest and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies as we see by experience betwen the Lutherans and Zuinglians Ievvel Pag. 200. 201. Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding that the scriptures be the scriptures c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false So saith S. a In prooemi in Luc. Ambrose S. b cōt Fau lib. 22. Augustin and c 80. li. 6. ca. 2. Eusebius Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures Harding If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome to discerne the true scriptures from the false shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God to expound the holy Scriptures and also to determine any question arising thereon Neither doo we say that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie but that it is to vs better knowen and as a more liuely so a more plaine teacher then the Scriptures be For if we aske the Scriptures any question Clemēs Alexand. li. strō 1 be it neuer so hard as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted They wil answer vs no more then it is written But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions if the knowledge be behooful for mannes soule health it wil euer make him to eche question an answer and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes 1. Tim. 3. For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth And as you confesse that the Church hath shewed vs which be the true Scriptures so must you likewise graunte that the Church hath the spirite of God to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases yea euen in those which be not expressely written For where is it written expressely that the church of God should haue the spirit of God for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures to approue the true Scriptures and to condemne the false forgeries Luc. 10. Mat. 18. Christe said generally of al matters He that heareth you heareth me Item he that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican Of the Sacramentes of the Churche The thirde Chapter Iewel Defence Pag. 103. 104. M. Harding saith there be seuen Sacramentes vvhich as he saith do not only signifie a holy thing but also doo make holy those to vvhom they be adhibited But hovv can Matrimonie sanctifie a man and make him holy Or by vvhat institution of Christ conteineth it grace in it selfe and povver to sanctifie Harding Ephes 5. S. Paule answereth you thus Ye husbandes loue your wiues as Christ hath loued his Church And then he proueth the wife to be the flesh of the husband as also the Church is the body of Christe And so both waies the Prophecie of Adam is verefied Gen. 2. that two shal be in one flesh Sacramentum hoc magnum est in Christe Ecclesia Sacramēt Mysterie This is a great Sacrament or a great Misterie in Christe and the Churche For we stand not now vpon the worde but vpon the thing What is that great Mysterie First Matrimonie is alwaies a coniunction of two in one both by natural consent of myndes and also if it be consummate by corporal coniunction Now by Christes institution that coniunction is also made inseparable Matt. 19. when he said That which God hath ioined together let not man separate or put a sunder Nowe then this coniunction is made to be inseparable betwen faithful persons it is directed by Christ and instituted purposely to signifie his inseparable coniunction with the Church And whiles it is instituted of Christe to signifie that thing it is made a Sacrament or Mysterie whereunto Christe geueth grace and holinesse for that purpose For when any thing or action is appointed by Christ to signifie a holy thing in Religion that action is thereby made a Sacrament and doth sanctifie the worthy receiuers of it We see that Circumcision might be made and was vsed among some Infidels and to them it was no Sacrament Gen. 17. But when the faithful were commaunded to circumcide them selues to signifie the Circumcision of the harte which Christe should make in them that beleeued by his spirit and grace then Circumcision was made a Sacrament and did sanctifie the worthy receiuer Euen so it is in Matrimonie as S. Augustine saith August lib. 1. de Nupt. Concupis cap. 10. Ephes 5. Quoddam Sacramentum nuptiarum commendatur fidelibus coniugatis Vnde dicit Apostolus viri diligite vxores vestras sicut Christus dilexit Ecclesiam A certaine Sacrament of Marriage is commended vnto the faithful married personnes Whereupon the Apostle saith ye men loue your wiues euen as Christe loued his Churche Huius proculdubio Sacramenti res est vt mas foemina connubio copulati quà m diu viuunt inseparabiliter perseuerent Nec liceat excepta causa fornicationis à coniuge coniugem dirimi hoc enim custoditur in Christo Ecclesia vt viuens cum viuente in aeternum nullo diuortio separetur The thing doubtlesse of this Sacrament is The thing of the Sacrament of Matrimonie that the man and woman ioyned together in Marriage as long as they liue continew together vndisseuered and that it be not lauful for the one to be separated from the other but for fornication For this thing is kept in Christ and the Church that he lyuing with the liuing for euer by no diuorce be separated Here we learne not only that the name but also that the thing of a Sacrament is in the Marriage of Christians which thing doth sanctifie those persons that come worthily to Marriage For as Marriage was from the beginning ordeined to begete Children so by Christ it is ordeined to a higher signification verely not to be separated whiles the parties married together doo liue and thereby to signifie Christes inseparable vniō with his Church The chief signification of Matrimonie And as that vnion of Christ with vs is an inseparable sanctification to faithful men so is the signe thereof a special sanctification to them who married in our Lorde It is knowen that as S. Augustine assigneth there are tria bona matrimonij August li. de Nuptijs Concupisc fides proles Sacramentum Three good thinges are in Mariage the faith or fidelitie of wedlocke which the man and wife must kepe rendring duetie the
of Christes flesh the onely meane of Resurrection to life And therefore your long talke is to no purpose which you vtter in this place They shal liue by the spirite of Christe who gaue them Faith and Charitie But doth not therefore S. Iohn speake also of real eating as though one effecte may not be wrought by diuers meanes concurring thereunto Ego saith Cyrillus id est Cyrill in Iohā li. 4. cap. 15. corpus meū quod comedetur resuscitabo eū I wil raise him that is to say my body which shal be eaten shal raise him Thus you see plainely that touching this point no lesse Clerke then Cyrillus teacheth the same that I said which you haue vniustly and rashly controlled as you haue done the reste of the Catholike Doctrine That matters of faithe and ecclesiastical causes are not to be iudged by the Ciuile Magistrate The. 14. Chapter Iewel Pag. 637. That a Prince or magistrate maie not lavvfully calae Prieste before him to his ovvne seate of Iudgement or that many Catholique and godly Princes haue not so done and done it lavvfully it is most vntrue Harding I haue tolde you M. Iewel Confut. Fol. 299. ae that the duetie of Ciuil Princes consisteth in Ciuil maters and euer said that Bishoppes ought to be obedient to Princes in suche cases whither so euer they cal them And if they make any temporal Decree the Bishoppe who hath temporal goodes vnder the Prince must obey without grudge Confut. Fol. 302. ae or gaine saying so farre as the Decree standeth with the honour of God But that in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faith mere temporal Princes haue any authoritie of them selues to cal Bishoppes and Priestes to their Seates of Iudgement or euer did it lawfully we vtterly denie Ambrosius lib. 5. Epist 32. Priestes only ought to be iudges ouer Priestes by Theosius S. Ambrose said to the Emperour Valentinian Nec quisquà m contumacem iudicare me debet quum hoc asseram quod augustae memoriae patertuus non solùm sermone respondit sed etiam legibus suis sanxit in causa fidei vel ecclesiastici alicuius ordinis eum iudicare debere qui nec munere impar sit nec iure dissimilis Haec enim verba Rescripti sunt Hoc est Sacerdotes de Sacerdotibus voluit iudicare Quinetiam si aliâs quoque arguerelar Episcopus morum esset examinanda causa etiam hanc voluit ad Episcopule iudicium pertinere Neither any man ought to iudge me as stubborne seing I affirme that whiche your father of most renoumed memorie not onely answered in worde but also established by his lawes that in a case of faith or any ecclesiastical order he ought to be iudge that is neither vnequal in office nor vnlike in right or authoritie For these are the wordes of the Rescripte That is he would Priestes to be iudges of Priestes And also if otherwise a Bishop were reproued and a cause concerning behauiour and manners were to be examined he would this cause of manners also to apperteine to the Bishoppes iudgement Vpon these wordes of Theodosius alleged and allowed by S. Ambrose An argument prouing that a Ciuile Magistrat maie not be iudge oner Priestes in causes ecclesiastical and matters of Faith thus I reason with you M. Iewel He can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faithe that is vnequal in office or vnlike in right and authoritie But the Prince is vnequal to the Bishop in office and vnlike vnto him in right and authoritie For he hath no right nor authoritie to sacrifice to preache to binde to loose to excommunicate and minister Sacramentes Therefore the Prince can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in any ecclesiastical cause or mater of Faith Againe no man hath authoritie ouer his superiour But the Bishop in maters of Faithe and Ecclesiastical causes is superiour to euery Prince Therefore in those causes the Prince hath no authoritie ouer the Bishop And if he haue no authoritie ouer him he can not cal him to his seate of iudgement Furthermore were it true that the Prince were equal with the Bishop in Ecclesiastical causes and matters of faith yet could he not cal him to his seate of iudgement ff ad S. Trebel L. ille § Tēpestiuum quia par in parem non habet potestatem bicause the equal hath no authoritie or power ouer his equal But to see M. Iewels arte in facing out this mater let vs consider the authorities that he bringeth to proue his purpose And bicause he blaseth this saying in the toppe of his margent with great letters VVhat it is to be conuēted before a Magistrate Spiegelius in verbo conuenire A Bishop conuented before the Magistrate let vs first define what it is to be conuented before a Magistrate The lawiers saie Conuenire est aliquem in ius vocare To conuent a man is to cal him into the lawe and so Conueniri coram magistratu est in ius vocari à magistratu to be conuented before a magistrate is to be called into the lawe by the magistrate To cal a man into the lawe is a iudicial acte proceding of superiour authoritie in him that is iudge both of the partie so called and also of the cause wherefore he is called As if the Maior of London would conuent any of the Citizens he must both haue iurisdiction ouer that Citizen and also authoritie to iudge in that cause for whiche the Citizen shal be conuented But no ciuil magistrate hath authoritie by vertue of his temporal office to be iudge our Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes as it is before proued and shal hereafter appeare Therefore no temporal magistrate can conuent any Bishoppe or Priest before him in any Ecclesiastical cause But let vs heare M. Iewel Cod. de Episcopis et clericis L. Nullus Iewel Pag. 637. Iustinian the Emperour him selfe vvho of al others most enlarged the Churches priuileges saith thus Nullus Episcopus inuitus ad ciuilem vel militarem iudicem in qualibet causa producatum vel exhibeatur nisi princeps iubeat Let no Bishop be brought or presented against his vvil before the captaine or Ciuil Iudge vvhat so euer the cause be onlesse the Prince shal so commaunde it Harding Seing Iustinian as you saie of al others did most enlarge the Churches Priuileges is it likely that he would most of al others breake them And whereas he made a lawe Authent 83. Coll. 6. vt Clerici apud proprios Episcopos that Clerici apud proprios Episcopos conueniantur primùm Clerkes shoulde be conuented first before their owne Bishoppes in causa pecuniaria in a money mater and afterwarde before the Ciuil Magistrate if either for the nature of the cause or for some other difficultie the Bishop could not ende it yet he
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
non castè tamen cautè If ye doo it not chastely yet doo it charily Harding You mistake your marke M. Iewel naming Otho Bonus for Otho They were diuers menne as you might haue sene in the Constitutions that you allege wherein your skil in the Canon lawe appeareth If you had laid forth the place wholly as true and vpright dealing requireth it should soone haue appeared vpon how smal a matter you pike so great a quarrel Thus it is Iohannes de Athon who wrote the Glose vpon the Constitutions Legatine of Otho hauing declared how a Clerke by which worde is not meant onely a Priest as you alwaies interprete but any that is within Orders be they the lesser or the greater is to be pounished for hauing a Concubine at length after his manner demaundeth this question Sed quid dices de punitione ipsarum Concubinarum si ad suam excusationem coram Iudice ecclesiastico se asserant publicas Meretrices quaestu corporis viuentes But what wilt thou saie of the pounishment of the Concubines them selues if for their excuse they saie before the ecclesiastical Iudge that they are common whoores lyuing by the gaine of that filthy seruice of their body Now immediatly there foloweth the answer which M. Iewel bringeth against the Canonistes not without a litle point of falsifying by nipping awaie this word Hoc an ordinarie marke of his workemanship Hoc nipâ—e avvaie by M. Ievv a vvorde of important siâ—uification Videtur quòd Hoc crimen Meretricij sub dissimulatione transire debeat Ecclesia It seemeth that the Churche ought to passe ouer this Crime of whooredome vnder dissimulation that is to saie to dissemble it The cause why the Churche ought to dissemble this crime in suche wemen as professe publique whooredom whiche the author of that Glose saith not precisely but speaketh it as an opinion and as a thing that seemed to some menne reasonable I had rather M. Iewel heard it of an other man then of me Certainely he maie iudge it is not altogether without cause that al Christendome ouer whereas al other wemen be pounished for the sinne of the flesh onely the common and publique whoores be let alone vnder dissimulation Yet it argueth not that simple fornication is made no sinne If M. Iewel would haue read further in that Glose he should haue founde these expresse wordes by whiche the Canonistes are cleered and he further charged with a false sclaunder Dic tamen quòd hoc peccatum prosequi debet Ecclesia vt mortale Ibidem Yet saie thou by whiche wordes he signifieth his owne opinion that the Church ought to pursue this sinne Vnde illud vulgare Si non castè tamen cautè as deadly sinne Whereof it foloweth that continuing in suche life they might not be admitted to the Sacramentes of holy Church As for those other wordes whiche we finde in the Glose Si non castè tamen cautè they are there rehersed as a common saying not as a rule or a precepte of the Canon Lawe neither perteine they to clerkes more then to the laie sorte The circumstance of the place considered and weighed al thinges maie seme there to be wel and discretely said Of two that committe Fornication he doth lesse euil that dooth it secretely then the other that doth it openly For the open fornicatour increaseth the offence by his il example by the offence the people take of it and by the contempte of his owne fame and good name Of suche a one it is said there out of the Lawe quòd famae suae prodigus etiam quoad homines suspensus est licet occulta fornicatio quoad Deum turbet bonam conscientiam that being a recheles loser of his owne fame he is suspended also as concerning the estimation of menne although the pryuie Fornication doo trouble a good conscience as touching God So then if it be an il thing a man to be suspended among menne and to lose the fame of his honestie Crudelis est qui famam contemnit if he be accompted cruel and desperate that careth not for his good name if it be dangerous to the soule also to prouoke others to offend by il example al these euilles folowing the publique and open fornicatour though secrete fornication ought also hartily to greeue and vexe the conscience before God how shal not that vulgare saying seeme to geue good counsel Si non castè tamen cautè whereby a man is not animated at al to doo il but if he hap to do his vncleane lust If not chastely yet charily or wil not be staid from it is admonished to doo it charily though not chastly And if there were any il meaning in this vulgare saying as there is not though it maie be abused to cast some shadow vpon euil lyuers the iudgement of the Canonistes were not to be reproued thereof but the custome of the worlde from whence it proceeded Iewel Pag. 360. Likevvise saith Petrus Rauennas one of your notable Canonistes Extra de immunitate EcclesiaruÌ„ Pet. RaueÌ„nas vpon the Decretalles Quamuis tactus oscula sint praeludia incontinentiae in Laicis secus tamen est in Clericis Nam Clericus praesumitur ista facere pro charitate bono Zelo. Notvvithstanding handeling and kissing in laie Personnes be the occasions or beginninges of incontinent behauiour yet in Priestes it is far othervvise For a Priest is presumed to doâ— these thinges of Charitie and of good zele Harding Yet Petrus Rauennas saith not that Simple Fornication is no sinne That is the thing you haue taken in hande to proue against the Canonistes When touche you the point In Italie where this lawier liued to kisse a woman is taken for a certaine earnest of a wanton bargaine promised and therefore openly men kisse not women at first and last salutations as the vse is in England But bicause that thing maie be in it selfe diuers according to the diuers manners of Countries and therefore maie be deemed good nolesse then euil menne being bounde to iudge the best of that whiche maie be wel done or is at least indifferent the Lawier considering the vertue and degree of a Clerke saith that an euil presumption is not lightly to be taken thereof but willeth it to be taken for courtesie and charitable salutation as it is taken in England and in sundry other countries Extra de Prebend c. nisi in principio For the qualitie and state of the person doth oftentimes purge the suspicion that otherwise is woont to rise of any acte Let vs heare what other Gloses this Gloser bringeth for his purpose Iewel Pag. 360. 11. quaest 3. Absit in Glossa Likevvise it is noted in your Glose Si Clericus amplectitur mulierem Laicus interpretabitur quod causa benedicendi eam hoc faciat If a Priest imbrace a vvoman a laieman must iudge of it thus that he dooth it to the intent to blesse her VVhere also ye
haue fought a good fight I haue ended the rase I haue kepte the faith as for the reste the Crowne of righteousnesse is laid vp for me which our Lord the iust Iudge wil render to me in that daye And not only to me but also to them who loue his comming Here are first rehersed S. Paules workes to fight to ronne to kepe the faith Then is their reward rehersed which is a Crowne not onely of mercie but of iustice of righteousnes which God wil not only geue him but he wil render it to him and not onely to him but to al that follow his Faith Hope and Charitie And yet shal wee saye that God rewardeth not workes of such duetie as him selfe apointed That which God promiseth for working is due to him that hath wrought And this is the doctrine of S. Augustine and of al the other Fathers and Councels which might be at large brought forth but that the scriptures are therein so plaine that they onely suffice For he that beleueth not them wil hardly beleeue the Fathers or Councels In vvhat respecte is life euerlasting freely geuen and in vvhat respecte it is due for good vvorkes Rom. 6. Therefore to ende this question if wee looke to the cause of al our good workes seing it is not Nature which was corrupted but Grace which hath repaired Nature through Christe in that respecte life euerlasting is freely geuen and not deserued And so the Apostle saith Life euerlasting is the grace or free gifte of God But if wee speake of them who haue already grace by Gods gifte and doo now worke wel to them life euerlasting is by promise due for their good workes Hereof no man speaketh more circumspectly or profoundly then S. Augustine Augustin epist 105. VVhether vve haue merites who saith thus Quae merita iactaturus est liberatus cui si digna suis meritis redderentur non esset nisi damnatus Nulláne igitur sunt merita iustorum Sunt planè quia iusti sunt Sed vt iusti fierent merita non fuerunt What merites or desertes shal he that is deliuered boast of who if he were rewarded according to his deseruing could not be but damned Are there then no merites of the iust Yes verely there are bicause they are iust But they merited not to be made iust And againe Ibidem Quod est ergo meritum hominis ante gratiam cùm omne bonum meritum nostrum non in nobis faciat nisi gratia cùm Deus coronat merita nostra nihil aliud coronet quà m munera sua pòst Vnde ipsa vita aeterna quae vtique in fine sine fine habebitur ideo meritis praecedentibus redditur tamen quia eadem merita quibus redditur non à nobis parata sunt per nostram sufficientiam sed in nobis facta per gratiam etiam ipsa gratia nuncupatur non ob aliud nisi quia gratis datur Nec ideo quia meritis non datur sed quia data sunt ipsa merita quibus datur Et pòst Vnde etiam Merces appellatur plurimis scripturarum locis What then is the Merite of man before grace whereas nothing worketh our good merite in vs but grace and when God crowneth our Merites he crowneth nothing els but his owne giftes And afterward Whereupon life euerlasting it selfe which doubtlesse at the ende we shal haue without ende and therefore it is geuen to the Merites going before yet bicause those Merites vnto whiche it is geuen be not gotten of vs by our owne sufficiencie but are wrought in vs through Grace that Life also is called Grace for none other thing but for that it is geuen freely Nor therefore bicause it is not geuen to Merites but bicause the Merites them selues to whiche it is geuen are geuen And afterward It is called also in many places of the Scripture Wages Thus in effect then the Scriptures and after them S. Augustine and with him al Catholikes do say Life euerlasting is rendred or paid as wages or as a due rewarde to good workes But bicause the very same workes are not good but by Grace therefore the life euerlasting is also called Grace Both these partes we graunte the Heretikes denie the one to witte that good workes merite euerlasting life Of the Resurrection of the flesh attributed to the worthy receiuing of the blessed Sacrament The 13. Chapter I Said the Resurrection of the flesh is attributed in the Scriptures not only to the spirite of Christ that dwelleth in vs but also to the real eating of Christes fleshe in the Euchariste bicause in S. Iohn Christe saith Ioan. 6. he that eateth my flesh and drincketh my bloude hath life euerlasting and I wil raise him againe in the last daye Iewel Pag. 324. VVhere is your real and substantial eating Harding The eating of Christes supper was a real eating and thereto the wordes of S. Iohn doo apperteine as the very circumstance and also as al the olde Fathers declare namely S. Chrysostom and Cyrillus vpon that chapter Iewel Ibidem S. Augustine expounding the same vvordes saith beleue In Ioan. tract 25. and thou hast eaten Harding S. Augustine saith it though not vpon those wordes But he meant of the spiritual eating by Faith only You stil confounde eating by faith with eating really at the Sacrament Iewel Ibidem Nicolas Lyra Nicol. Lyra in Psal 111. one of your ovvne Doctours saith these vvordes of S. Iohn perteine nothing to the Sacrament Thus he saith Hoc verbum directè nihil pertinet ad Sacramentalem vel corporalem manducationem This saying of the sixth of Iohn perteineth nothing directly to the Sacramētal or corporal eating It vvas some ouersight of your parte M. Harding to seeke to proue the eating of the Sacramēt by those vvordes that by your ovvne doctors iudgemēt perteineth nothing to the Sacramēt Harding But it was a more ouersight of you M. Iewel to-blemish your credite by belying my doctor Lyra fovvly belied by M. Ievv if Lyra be my Doctor For Lyra neuer said the wordes that you allege Your cotation directeth the Reader to the Psalme 111. Read thexposition that Lyra maketh vpon that Psalme who liste he shal find him to saie no such thing In deede he expoundeth that Psalme of the Euchariste and saith quite cōtrarie to your doctrine Lyra in Psal 110. In praecedenti Psalmo actū est de Sacerdotio Christi eius sacrificio quod est Eucharistia in isto agitur de Eucharistiae efficacia In the former Psalme the Priesthod of Christ was treated of and his Sacrifice which is the Euchariste in this Psalme the efficacie of the Euchariste is treated of There ye haue a plaine testimonie bothe of Christes Priesthod and of his Sacrifice whiche he perfourmed otherwheres then vpon the Crosse which you denie For which cause specially I suppose ye cal him one of mine owne doctours In consideration whereof al the Doctours
of Christes Church be my Doctours they be not yours For that Doctrine is generally taught by them al. Lyra vnderstode Christ in the 6. of Iohn to speake of the Euchariste Ioan. 6. Thaâ— Lyra vnderstode the wordes of Christe spoken in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn of the Euchariste it is cleere bothe by thexposition of that Psalme and also of that chapter In the exposition of the Psalme to declare the benefite of the Sacrament worthily receiued hâ—… allegeth those wordes of Christe Si quis manducauerit ex hoc pane viuet in aeternum If any man eate of this Breade he shal liue for euer Touching the 6. chapter of S. Iohn vpon these wordes Operamini non cibum qui perit c. Thus he writeth Haec autem esca est Christi corpus in Eucharistia c. This meate whereof S. Iohn speaketh is the Bodie of Christe in the Euchariste as it appeareth by the letter following in whiche he speaketh very diffusely of the Sacrament of the Euchariste shewing what is conteined in it really Whereof it is said in this very Chapter hereafter my Fleash is very meate and my Bloude is very drinke Whereby the errour of Berengarius is taken awaye who said the Body of Christe to be conteined in this Sacrament as in a Signe For the whiche he recanted his saying as erroneus Thus Lyra. By these and by many other wordes there Lyra sheweth at large that he was of the opinion that sundrie sayinges of Christe in the 6. Chapter of S. Iohn perteine to the Sacrament Whereby it appeareth how falsely you haue belyed him The wordes which you allege M. Iewel to entwite me of ouersighte are not the wordes of Nicolas Lyra mine owne Doctor as you saie but of one Matthias Doring Matthias Doring who wrote Replies against the Additions of Paulus Burgensis printed with Lyras expositions Wherein as you haue deceiued your Reader with false forgerie fathering that vpon Lyra that Lyra neuer said nor dreamed of so you haue fowly corrupted also this poore Doctor Doring with cutting of his wordes pretending him to speake of these wordes of S. Iohn He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloude hath life euerlasting and I wil raise him againe in the last daie which I alleged whereas in deede he spake neither of these wordes specially nor of Christes whole discourse in that chapter of S. Iohn in general but onely of these special wordes of S. Iohn Nisi manducaueritis carnem filij hominis biberitis eius sanguinem non babebitis vitam in vobis Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his Bloude ye shal not haue life in you That the truth be knowen and your falsehed detected thus it is Burgensis had written these wordes Licet Iohannis sexto legatur Purgen Additione 1. in Psal 112. Nisi manducaueritis carnem filij hominis non habebitis vitam in vobis per hoc tamen secundùm Doctores non imponitur praeceptum necessitatis ad sumptionem huius Sacramenti prout Augustinus declarat Vnde sumptio huius Sacramenti corporaliter quantum ad populum vel Laicos cadit sub consilio potius quà m praecepto Although we reade in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man ye shal not haue life in you yet hereby after the Doctors minde we are not charged with a precept of necessitie to receiue this SacrameÌ„t but only the thing of the Sacrament By the thing of the Sacrament is meant the Vnitie of the Church as S. Augustin declareth Wherefore the receiuing of this SacrameÌ„t bodily as touching the laie people is such a thing as is rather counseled then coÌ„maunded Hitherto Burgensis Now coÌ„meth me in Doctor Doring whom M. Iewel would haue menne beleue to be Nicolas Lyra and findeth fault with Burgensis for alleging the said wordes of S. Iohn excepte ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man c. to this sense Matthias Doring in replica in Psal 110. that the corporal Communion as touching the laie people is a matter of counsel Per hoc non satisfit Haereticis modernis The Heretiques of our age wil not be satisfied with this saith he And why It followeth there Quia litera non habet illud dictuÌ„ fundamentum Bicause that saying that the bodily receiuing of the SacrameÌ„t in laye folke is a matter of counsel hath not his foundation out of the texte And therefore concerning the Sacramental Communion it hath not the force of a precept neither for the Clergie nor for the laitie as touching al according to the true vnderstaÌ„ding of that text Howbeit in the same place it is declared of what eating and drinking it ought to be vnderstaÌ„ded to witte of the spiritual For it foloweth he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Which S. Augustin expoundeth saying Hoc est manducare illam escam bibere illum potum in Christo manere Christum manentem in se habere This is to eate that meate and to drinke that drinke a man to dwel in Christ and to haue Christ dwel in him which is no thing els but to be in Charitie .. Then followe these wordes whereof M. Iewel would take aduantage Hoc auÌ„t omnibus indiffereÌ„ter est praeceptuÌ„ implicitè sed nihil directè pertinet ad SacrameÌ„talem vel corporalem manducationem Hoc verbum nisi maÌ„ducaueritis c. This is geueÌ„ in coÌ„maundement to al men indifferently by waie of implying But this saying Except ye eate the flesh of the SoÌ„ne of man c. This word or this saying perteineth nothing at al to the SacrameÌ„tal or corporol eating Thus farre Matthias Doring Thus you maie vnderstand M. Iewel the wordes you allege be not Lyras but one Doringes and the same haue relation not to the place of S. Ihon that I brought but onely to these wordes Excepte ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man ye shal not haue life in you Whiche wordes after that Doctours mynde importe not a precepte of necessitie of the Sacramental or corporal eating and so thinke I to And though he iudged they were not aptly alleged of Burgensis to proue that the bodily receiuing of the Sacrament is a mater of counsel and not of precepte bicause they perteine not to the Sacramental Communion at al yet the other saying he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude hath life auerlasting and I wil raise him againe in the last daie maie wel be alleged for benefite of the Resurrection of the fleshe to redounde to the faithful beleeuer of the worthy receiuing of Christes Bodie in the Euchariste for whiche purpose it was by me alleged You should haue sene these thinges better before ye had entwited me of ouersight Iewel Hovv liued then the Patriarkes and Martyrs and hovv shal children haue life vvho neuer receiue the Sacrament Harding Pag. 324. I make not the real eating