They are 6. in number The 1. is that when Christ on the Crosse cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me by this word me he should meane His Church For the which you have no reason in the world but the bare names of Austin Leo Athanasius Shew me their reasons See before â—ag 28.29 presse not their authorities Which your selfe also reiecteth when you list though when you list againe they must be your best yea your only reason But even these Fathers if they be vnderstood Pag 79. as * before I have shewed Cyprians meaning to be that Christ spake these wordes as doing now the part of the Suretie of his Church and as standing in the case of his Children whom now by his suffering paines he saved then they agree iust with our minde herein For then doubtles it was for the infinite paines which now he felt in our steed that he so cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Otherwise if you thinke they meant that Christ spake this by some strange Metonimy naming him selfe but meaning his Church that can have no good sense For how can it be that we were forsaken of God when Christ was on the Crosse Nay even there and then were we “ Act. 20 purchased vnto God not forsaken by God Againe your owne rule is which I like well that no Figure is to bee admitted in Scripture where there is no ill nor hurtfull sense following literally But I have shewed a little before a plaine easie and Christian sense heereof taking it literally that me signifieth Christes owne person namely his Manhood bearing nowe as our Suretie intollerable paines inflicted by Gods wrath vpon him and so he may mourne sorrowe that he was forsaken that is left in vnmeasurable paines with out feeling of any comfort or succour for the tyme. Wherefore neither you nor any of the Fathers ought to conceave that me heere should signifie not Christ properly but the Church Figurativelie What other construction you can make heereof I can not discerne Finally this 1. sense is contrary to your 2. and 3. following also to your 5. and 6. senses If eyther of these be taken as the true meaning of this place it cannot possibly stande with the rest although you allow them all as by and by we shall manifestly see Now then your sense what is it Even this that Christs humane nature was left helples to the rage of the Iewes which is a kinde of forsaking This seemeth to come neerest indeed to your liking by that which I observe in a Pag. 13 you But as I said this is directly contrary to your 1. sense to the rest following Also b Heere 11.50 before we saw how greatly Christes sufferinges specially on the Crosse differed from such as the godly doe also suffer Yea there is surely no reason nor shew of reason that Christ heere should so mournfully and so vncomfortably complaine that God had forsaken him if it were only but for such distresses as the godly also doe equally suffer at the hands of evill men Seeing most of theÌ„ at the hower of their martyrdoms doe never vtter any such shew as Christ heere did of a minde vncomforted Where also note this well that no godly man not Martyr did ever ascribe this forsaking of themselves to God in the time of their martyrdomes For though then they are oppressed with greater violence of bodily enemies yet they are assisted with far greater abundance of heavenly comfort even in the middest of the paines of death So that they never mourne nor complaine at such extreme dealing as Christ now did when hee said my God my God why hast thou forsaken me Wherefore it is a great shame to imagine that Christ was lesse able to indure such a dereliction or that he would thus complaine and mourne for it only Pag. 35. The bare names againe of c Austin Ambrose Hierom doe heere likewise no good This is but a weake kind of reasoning for so learned a Divine as you are Although also these very sentences of the Fathers I can easily admit if they import no more then they seeme namely that these outward afflictions on the Crosse were some cause and that not small of his complaint alwayes remembring that some greater cause also did concurre was conioyned with them Your 3. sense if I conceave it a right is that his being lâ—ft to bodily death caused him thus to mourne which is but as the last before And yet you seeme to meane not onely that but also because his d flesh now should want all feeling of his heavenly comfort for that while â—n that you 〈◊〉 His Godâ—â—ad deparâ—â— nowe froÌ„ 〈◊〉 body c. that it should remaine dead A marvelous exquisit far fet cause Yet me thinks as this crosseth your other expositions heere so it is flat contrary to the Scripture also which giveth after a sort to Christs dead Flesh this lively affection 〈◊〉 2.26.27 e my flesh shall rest in hope because thou wilt not leave my soule to remaine as all other flesh dying doth in the vnseene worlde of the dead neither wilt suffer thy holy one to see corruptioÌ„ Is it likely is it possible that he should so dolefully mourne that either he should bodily dy or that his body should want the sense of his divine presence so little a while when as in his mind hee speaketh so triumphantly of his constant and continuall ioy in God yea not excluding even his body though dead from participating in some sort therein as we read in the former place at large I beheld the Lord always before me for he is at my right hand that I should not be shaken Therefore did my heart reioyce my toung was glad moreover my Flesh shallrest in hope c. Now can a man in this exceeding generall and constant ioy so vncomfortably mourne in that sense as you vrge My God my God why forsakest thou my flesh It cannot be Many thinges more may be strongly alleaged against this opinioÌ„ As first seeing he perfitly knew thath as his flesh now should quietly rest and have a present ende of all his most bitter sorrowes so even all that while continually after his soul which was his best part should inioy perfit glory and comfort more then before it did Also seeing this senseles rest of his flesh was to be but for a very little while then presently to receave a most glorious and eternall felicity iointly with his Soul and with his Deity who can imagine that Christ would now ready to dy so extreamely mourne and complaine only for this cause as your fancy importeth Further he knew perfitly that this was the very appointment of God and for the fulfilling of Prophesies for the obtayning of his most desired purchase of our health for the more advancing of Gods glory yea and for the more advancing of his very
But neither shame nor Death to the holy Martyrs are d accounted by God nor by his servauntes as proper and true Curses Before pag. 9. 50. but the holy men are in trueth most glorious and blessed in them Againe the Saints and Martyrs can not bee properly Cursed and properly Blessed too in any measure Neither their Soules blessed vnles their bodyes be blessed also free from the true Curse although you seeme to denie this point Which strange and vncouth assertioÌ„ both heere and in many places mo you doe at least insinuat that is that the godly in their Soules are blessed but in their bodyes they still retaine Gods true proper Curse till the resurrection Which I leave to the consideration of the godly You say We must call things by those Names which God first allotted them That I deny If God since evidently have altered them and disposed of them otherwise But he hath so don in this case The afflictions and death which originally and naturally were punishments for sinne and are so still to the wicked the same to the godly as I have often said are since changed now are properly Chastisements of sinne and not Punishmentes nor Curses Only Christ hath suffered the whole proper punishment and true Curse or Vengeance of our sinnes and therefore on vs it is not it can not be laid againe in any part thereof You a Pag. 96. avouch some that denie Christ to have bene made a Curse or sinne But you must remember b Pag. 92. your owne place of Austin Maledictum est omne peccatum sive ipsum quod fit sive ipsum supplicium The Curse is all sinne which is twofold either that which we commit against Gods law or els the very Punishment of that sinne Nowe c Pag. 96. your testimonies do meane Christ was not made a Curse or sin the first way that is he was not in him selfe sinfull nor hated they deny not the second that he was made the proper punishment or Sacrifice for our sinne And thus though you lust not to see it yet my d Treâ—â— pag. 45. speach was sound and true If Christ dyed simply but as the Godly dye it might in no sort e Gal. 3. heere be called a Curse The reason is evident because the text heere doeth speak treat of the Curse of the Law against sinne such therefore was Christes Curse which he suâ—layned To conclude then his afflictions and death was neither Wages nor Chastisement nor Curse nor Consequent of any sinne in him Yet as God made him sinne for vs so he truely properly and in very deed laid the paine of his Curse vpon his body and Soule Which Curse of God vpon Christ as you f Pag 26 say truly was not in words but in deedes Wherefore my wordes g Pag. 2â— you openly pervert affirming that I say Death heere that is Christes death noted Galat. 3.13 â—ay in no sorte be called a Curse when I expresly even there and every where doe say the contrary Pag. 263. But a your greatest exception is that this Curse laid on Christ cannot be vnderstood of the whole Curse of God or of the Law Pag. 264. and therefore b you spare me not for c saying that Paul heere in his application out of Moses nameth a part of the iust Curse of the Law for sinne Treat 1. pag. 40. thereby meaning and inferring to his purpose the whole Where you must be so good as to vnderstand me by mine own words in other places Pag 290. For thus d you know e I limited my speach els where As touching the vehemency of paine Christ was as sharply touched as the very reprobats Treat 1. pag 81. And Christes sufferings were equall to the very Hellish torments in vehemency of paine and sharpnes Againe f This price equally in Justice must be kept so far as it is possible Pag. 26. And g Pag. 37. Because there was no impossibility no necessitie no reason but he might feele the full smart of our sinnes as there was that he should not feele the full continuance thereof and seeing Gods strict iustice requireth it to be so therefore it was so he suffered all the smart but not all the continuance of our punishment â— Also Pa. 23. Heeâ—e Pa. 13 Thus then plainly h I signified i those 3 Limitations which now are expressed that Christ suffered our whole Curse only so far as the possibilitie of thinges could admit wherein nothing was dispensed nor pardoned to him for there was no cause as I have often said Which doctrine how vnworthy it is of your strang contempt and outcryes against me I leave it to the godly Wise to consider Nowell Catechis Only marke if our k publike doctrine be not the same Vltima omnia pati voluir pro nobis qui vltima omnia commeriti sumus Diram execrationeÌ„ suscepit coÌ„tumelias etiaÌ„ omnes omnia probra atque supplicia c. But you will say thus we make it not the whole Curse of the Law Yes we cal it rightly the whole Curse for as much as Christ suffered it in his whole manhood See before pag 8. 1. The. 5.28 â— pa. 48. 52 even in l All the powers of his m Spirit Soule Body where that Curse in Deutero being a part was suffered only in the Body quickned by the Soul Also in other respectes this suffering of Christ may bee well called the whole Curse or PunishmeÌ„t of sin Pag. 11 12. â—nâ— 16.17 Pa. 27â— 280 as n before is declared After this o you thinke it strange that I say Christ suffered dyed iustly and was hanged on the tree by the iust sentence of the Law that so hee was by imputation of our state and condition vnto him sinfull 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 51.11 defiled hatefull and accursed All the which I avouch because he vndertooke by Gods ordinance as our Surety to receave our whole condemnation vpon himselfe so far as his owne nature and condicion could possibly admit Christ suffeâ— iustly to the ende that hee might wholly acquit vs. In regard whereof I aske Is it wrong for the Law to lay the penalty on the surety when the debtour can not discharge it Against this my assertion you say a Pag. 27â— By no sentence of the Law he hanged on a tree And a reason you give b Pag. 273 because to be hanged on a tree was no necessary part of the generall Curse of God vpon all sinners I answer to Dy for sinne was a necessary part of the generall Curse vpon all sinners What say you then to his Death Did he dy iustly Sure if Christ dyed by the rule of Gods iustice then he dyed iustly If he dyed not by Gods iustice then Wo and thrice Wo to vs. For it cannot be but Gods Iustice * Luc. 16.1 Deut. 10.1 Rom. 8.32 See before pag. 66. must
soule properly also For the one standeth with Gods iustice and with the Nature of man in Christ aswell as the other So farre for this Then e you addresse your selfe against another â—ag 289. even one of the chiefest reasons of mine which I make from the straunge and incomparable Agoâ—ies of Christ in the tyme of his Passion These invaded him as we read principally at 3. times 1. in the foretast of his Passion shewed vs in the 12. of Iohn 2. In the Garden a little before his apprehension 3. In his very extreame Passion it selfe on the Crosse The Scriptures f heeretofore I rehearsed at full Treat â— â—ag 49. 50. â—oh 12.27 Mat. 26.39 and 44. Mark 14.33 â—uk 22.44 and 43. Mat. 27.46 â—ebâ—â— 5.7 whence these piteous and vnspeakeable Agonies of his are notified vnto vs. Whereby to all that duely consider it appeareth so cleare as the Sunne at noone day that The paines of his Passionâ— which plainly now he felt and feared because he knew he was to feele them further vnto death were the proper and direct cause of those Agonies But we assume that such straunge and lamentable things and behaviour in Christ were not the effectes only and meerelie of his bodily paines and death or of the feare of them Therefore Christ felt and indured more then his meere bodily paine and death by the testimonie of the Scriptures which thing a Before 14.25.5 you deny In your whole discourse you gainsay * Pag. 17 22. 23. 2â— 34. c. the Proposition that the paines of Christes Passion or the naturall feare of them was the proper and direct cause of those Agonies or that these Scriptures doe imply so much The Assumption you graunt and acknowledge that the meere bodily paines and death of Christ or the feare thereof were not the only nor the proper and direct Cause of these Agonies in him For b Pag. 29â— you are resolved that the cause of Christes Agonie could not proceede but from his Submission to God or Compassion to men or froÌ„ both These you name elswhere a c Pag. 23. â— religious Feare d Pag. 124. 20 21. Devotion and Pietie to God pitie to men c. And thus you resolutely denie my Proposition For you meane it seemeth that Christ suffered paines in his Soule by reason of the strength and zeale of these his Holy Affections and that these were the proper and maine Causes of that his most wofull and miraculous Agonie Complaint Therfore not any extraordinarie Paines inflicted vpon him by way of proper punishment as my Proposition intendeth But this your Assertion I simply denie that Christes Holy Affections his Piety and his Pity were the proper and maine Causes of that his most wofull and miraculous Agonie Complaint And then my Proposition standeth firme that his Paines inflicted on him by way of proper Punishment and Vengeance for sinne were the proper and maine Cause thereof Wherefore let vs try your proofes for it and then mine against it But before we com to them you must know that this your Resolution as you call it is first most vaine also directly contrary to your selfe and then altogeather vntrue and presumed by wide coniecture as God willing presently I shall shew For the first I hartily intreat the Christian Reader to marke wel to consider how your L. doth contrive 3. notable Equivocations in these few wordes Christ suffered in his Soule the wrath of God Notable Sâ—â— phistrie which you e Pa 243 24â— 245. 248. seeme to grant but in truth you do not and if we ad also the paines of Hell then hee opposeth a fourth fallacie against vs. And these 3. or 4. are the only Pillars of his Doctrine For the 3. former your first Equivocation is in this word Christ Suffered and about it wee deale in this place now The common and ordinary phrase of men vnderstandeth heerein His feeling of paines inflicted on him by way of proper punishment and satisfaction for sinne â—t Christes â—fering or â—â—lion is proâ—â—ly which he vndertooke for vs. Only this in the ordinarie and vsuall maner of speach is signified by Christes suffering or his Passion and so doe we alwayes vnderstand by it But you cunninglie take another rare sense of this word as it signifieth the Affections of the Minde in Christ wholly bent to Holines Righteousnes Obedience of God that so he might exactly perfitly keep his iust Law Which 2. partes of Christes Mediation are greatly differing â—â—e before pa. 18. 52. 64. and ought not both in trueth to be called His Passion or Satisfaction for sinne Therefore speake plainly I beseech you and deceave vs not call not this His Soules suffering but his Soules Holines Righteousnes And seeing you meane This was the proper maine cause of Christs Passion Suffering wheÌ„ he wrought his satisfactioÌ„ for sin now at the last end of his life chiefly I simply denie it 〈◊〉 Treat 1. pag. 68. 69. all Reason reclaimeth against it and to that which I alleaged for further reproofe thereof you answere nothing Your next Equivocation is in this See before pag 52. Hee suffered †in Soule your next in Gods wrath Both which I have plainly shewed before As also your 4. Before pa. 49. 19. * Fallacy which may be called Fallacia Accidentis But Sit I hope you will not thinke to beare downe all afore you with nothing but with cunning Before pag. 16. 53. yet vaine deceipt countenanced out with cruell and hatefull wordes Further you are in this your Resolution directly contrary to your owne selfe Before pa. 36. 64. as before I have briefly yet sufficiently shewed Againe where you censure your selfe very sharply for your resolutnes in this cause Pag. 17. * It is curiosity to examine presumption to determine impossibility to conclude certainly what was the true cause therof Thirdly “ Pag. 290. where you make but 2. causes submission to God Compassion to men elswhere but one * Pag. 23. Religious feare But †Pa. 17. c. before you very precisely made 6. If you agree no better w th your self I have small hope that you will agree with vs. Last of al this your resolution making Christs Piety Pity to be the only proper maine Cause of all his wofull Passion is vtterly false and vntrue having no grouÌ„d but meere coniectures But before I vnâ—â— my reasons against your Assertion Your 6. Causes of Chr. Agonie vntrue let vs view all your particulâ—â— Causes see if any one of the can be good †Pag. 18. Your 1. Cause is Sâ—â—mission to the Maiesty of God sitting in iudgemeÌ„t Against whom 〈◊〉 in what cause sate he now in iudgment when Christ was thus astonished Agonized therewith Of necessity it must be one of these three wayes 1. Gods Maiesty great iustice now at this time might sit in iudgement
against vs so consequently yea chiefly against Christ him selfe as our Ransom-payer and Surety in our steed If you meane that thus Christ with SubmissioÌ„ beholding his Father in iudgement at this time was cast into this Agonie it is the verie trueth and the same that we maintayne For this denyeth not but that he had real paines inflicted froÌ„ the Father as from a iust iudge against vs in him who were thus acquitted by him And thus if Aust and others a Pag. 3â— sentences be vnderstood that the Compaint on the Crosse was not Christs in respect of him selfe but in respect of his Church for whom then there he answered before God comming now to execute iudgement for their sinne so they are wel rightly vnderstood otherwise there is no trueth in them namely as you seeme to vse them Second God might be considered now as iudging Satan the prince of this world and overcomming him for vs by the victorie of Christes sufferings which he was nowe about to vndergoe that thus the Divell as b Pag. you note out of c Aug. Austin might be vanquished in our Cause not by Gods absolut and meere power but also by doeing iustice so we deliuered Thus where d Pag. you apply e Ioh. 32. Now even at hand is the iudgement of this world Now eveÌ„ shortly shall the prince of this world be cast out and I if I were lift vp from the earth will draw all men vnto me If you meane it in this sense as you seeme to doe it serveth well But that in this respect as God proceeded against Satan and for this cause Christ should bee cast into these dreadfull scates sorrowes and bloudy Agonies what man of iudgement would imagine What colour of likelihood is there in it Rather this were properly cause of great ioy and triumph indeed as sufficiently I have shewed in my f Ph. 5. former treatise wherevnto you answere not Your testimonies touching g Ioel Heb. Psal men sinfull wherevnto may be adioyned h Lucâ— an other of the like somewhat opening those places make nothing to the purpose at al. For these could not by reason of their Sinnes induce the very presence of Gods Maiesty beeing in anie measure revealed vnto them but Christ in him selfe being free from all sinne could be in no such case No better also is i Isa â— that of the Angells meere Creatures vayling their faces at the glorious presence of God the Creatour of all but Christ the Mediator was not a meere Creature but alwayes personally vnited with a greater power then the Angells were and alwayes sustayned by it vnles only in case of his Iudgement and Passion proceeding vpon him from God as is before noted when purposely the Godhead hid him selfe as it were and withdrew his wonted Comfort that the manhood might be subiect â—o full Punishment for vs as was appointed by God Although even nowe also the Godhead did sustaine his manhood thus being overloaden with paines otherwise it could not a â—efore â— 42 but have ben quite overwhelmed Third Gods Maiestie and iustice may be considered sitting in iudgement meerely against sinfull men If you meane heere against the sinnes of the Elect Christ knew the eternall and sure decree of God which had turned the Cup of vengeance alreadie from them vpon himselfe as being their Suretie so that this commeth to our Assertion as is aforesaid Or touching the Reprobates doe you think that Christ heere so vehemently wished them better whom he knew God hated or that for pity of them he fell into this Agonie and sorrowful prayers First Christ saith a little b 〈◊〉 17. â— before He would not so much as pray for them Yea it is certaine Christ rather would have greatly reioyced to see the due execution of Gods most holy and deserved iustice which is a speciall part of his high glory According to that which is written c 〈◊〉 58.10 The righteous shall reioyce when he seeth the vengeance he shal wash his feet in the bloud of the wicked And men shall say verily there is fruit for the righteous doubtles there is a God that iudgeth the earth Againe if Christes mournfull prayers were to wish better to the Reprobat how can that stand where he saith Let this Cup passe from me he should have saide from them Neither this also might he say from them as knowing perfectly his Fathers and his owne will directly to the contrary Your next supposed Cause d 290. Compassion towards men coÌ„tayneth 3. severall causes e 18.19 heere 1. for the Reiection of the Iewes 2. for the Dispersion of his Church 3. His zealous griefe generally for the sins of the world All these I grant were alwayes in Christ and caused no doubt alwayes heavines in him yet no more then a godly and heavenly minde could and would cheerefully digest and beare Wherefore you strangely deceave your selfe if you thinke that these any or all of them did so far exceede in him as to procure his most dreadfull and bloudy Agonie For the Reiection of the Iewes what reasons bring you a Luke 〈◊〉 Christ wept over their City Ergo Now at his Passion he was driven into his dreadfull Agonie for this cause and that rather now then when hee so wept expresly for them I deny this argument how will you doe to prove it I b Treat 〈◊〉 pa. 6. â—7 have shewed from hence the contrary wherevnto nothing is answered that seeing when a little before hee throughly intended expressed his affection about that matter yet therby he fell into no such Agonie but only wept and mourned for them therefore now in his Passion where he speaketh not a worde of them it is strange to say that his Pity of his CouÌ„try men the Iewes should drive him to sweat bloud and thrice to pray with teares and strong cryes that this Cup of grief might passe from him and thrice to yeeld him selfe againe to Gods will saying Not my will but thy will be done This verily cannot stand with any reason Again that his expresse Compassion towardes the Iewes a little c Luk. 19. Mat. 24. before he prepared him to his Passion plainly sheweth that now in the Garden and so still forward he gave him selfe wholy to other thoughtes matters Namely such as coÌ„cerned his great work in hand that is to be are the Paines which now chiefly he was to suffer for mans redemption at Gods hands Wherefore this work of Christ at this time performed and wrought by him Note is by a proper and peculiar Name iustly called his Passion not not his Compassion Againe you say For their sakes Moses desired to be wiped out of Gods booke and Paul could have wished him selfe to bee separated from Christ for his brethren the Israelites Ergo Christ at his Passion was cast into that strange Agonie for the griefe of their reiection This also
hath no shape of any reason in it It proveth that Christ surely had very great pity and commiseration of them but nothing els in the worlde Besides Christ might have far greater pity of them then Moses or Paul had and yet hee was able to cary his affection far more patiently and quietly then they were able which would rather keepe him from such an outwarde distemper as was even in them Also Christ knew exactly Gods Counsell and purpose for their reiectioÌ„ which those holy men were not so particularly sure of Wherfore Christ might better stay the vehemency breaking out of this affection which in such a case must needs tend against the knowen will of God In those holy men it might better break foorth very strongly as it did seeing they knewe not particularly Gods decree heerein so as Christ knew Lastly those holy men it seemeth having their thoughtes wholly defixed on their vehement pity towardes the Iewes earnestly and constantly wished that the Cup of Gods eternall wrath might come vpoÌ„ them selves that the Iewes who deserved it â—pecially â—ul who â—â—vâ—edly â—proveth yeâ—â—th Rom. 1. might scape But Christ in his Passion contrariwise desired that the Cup which hee tasted to be too bitter and too violent for him might passe away from him selfe Thus here is no semblance of reason in this for your purpose But against you heere are 4. worthie things to be noted If we consider this first that these most servent desires of these rare men were holy and not sinful Because their thoughts being wholly altogeather for the time defixed on their love to their Brethren in the flesh that they might be saved and that Gods glory might be infinitly more ample if he saved so many hundred thousands which now almost seemed to them as lost then it would be in their own particular salvation onely and thus for the tyme not thinking it seemeth vpon their own immutable Election and Salvation not any thing els saving only that they could desire their brethrens salvation yea though it were with their owne damnation for their sakes if so it might stand with Gods will which no doubt alwayes they implyed though expressed nor thus I take it plaine enough that these sinned not in this their desire and I suppose you take it so too in that you alleage them ground your reason of Comparison vpon them Nowe from hence I observe these 4. notable pointes â—â—â—e 1. That if God Omuipotent and only Soveraigne Lord will he may inflict Damnation and the paines of Hel vpon meere men not for them selves but for others not for their own sins but for the imputed Sinnes of other men much rather then may hee doe thus to Christ whom God sent indeed and ordayned for that purpose â—â—g â—76 Flatly contrary to your Assertion That which there you mention is the ordinary common rule The Soule that sinneth it shall Dy. But in Christ this was eatraordinary and singular that The iust dyed for the vniust 2. Wee see heere that there may be possibly a Death of the Soule a Curse and Separation froÌ„ God which is in it selfe neither Sinne nor conioyned with sinne necessarily but meerely a Suffering of Punishment from God for the sinnes of others imputed 〈◊〉 73.310 Contrarie to you also yea generally every where Third That extraordinarily there is greater love even among meere men then only to dy bodily one for another though vsually and ordinarily a greater can not be found among men which is it that a Ioh. 13 1â— Christ meaneth But how much more the may the love of Christ towards his Elect be farre greater Contrary to b Pa. 107 1â— your assertion Fourth Wee see here that these holy men without feeling any paines inflicted by Gods wrath but onely through an earnest and mighty Compassion of love c Pag. 293. have their mindes drawen so wholly to thinke on this speciall thing above their reach that during the time they turne not themselves to any other cogitation Even as the eye being bent inteÌ„tively to behold any thing for that present discerneth nothing els Whereby it coÌ„meth to passe that these wishes of these holy men ravished with Pity and Zeale are not reckoned sinfull in theÌ„ though they were directly against their owne SalvatioÌ„ which otherwise they knew was immutable with God and certainly reserved for them in Heaven This you d Pag. 293. acknowledge may be in men yet you will not skoffe at them as e Pag. 144. cast into a traunce by it nor reproch them with f Pag. 299. infernall confusion How much lesse ought you so to deale with Christ but specially to acknowledge that his marveylous perplexity may well be a meanes that his suddainwishes against his own constant purpose Gods will were yet no sinnes And that much rather even for this because Christ had infinitly more cause by his Paines theÌ„ felt and feared to be in his minde both more amuzed and also amazed then those men had by their affections Thus far of this As for the g Ambroâ—â—â— leâ—om Aâ— Bâ—de Fathers which h Pag. 19. you cite if they meane as they seeme to do that now at his Passion among other causes of sorrow there waÌ„ted not this even his great Pity towards his forlorn CouÌ„trymeÌ„ theÌ„ we ioyne with them If they meane as you would have them that this was the maine and chiefe cause of his extreame sorrows and amazednes therein I vtterly leave them Howbeit this heere note in them that these Fathers avouch Christ feared not his bodily Death and Passion for thereof only they speake heere questionles You contrariwise say that Christ feared bodily death for thereof also i Pag. 26 〈◊〉 you discourse and had more cause as you thinke so to do then any of his members haue Third touching k Pag. 19 〈◊〉 his regard of his Church generally the same answer serveth as is given to the last point before If you vrge that these Fathers are so resolute for these Causes as their wordes heere pretend then your self abuseth them more theÌ„ ever I did or meane to do â—ag 17. where you say a it is curiosity to examine presumption to determine impossibility to conclude as these doe what was the true cause of Christs Agonie Fourth Pag. 20. b you alleage his inward sorrow and zealous grief for the sinnes of the world to be the maine and chiefe cause of his Agonie Surely even to rehearse these your argumeÌ„ts is refutation of them enough All these are proper parts of his Holines Righteousnes as I have said but no proper partes or causes of his bloudy most dreadfull Agonie that is of his Sacrifice satisfying for sinne Only his * Heb. 2.10 Paines were which then he felt and feared Neither in respect of these your supposed causes could he say Save me froÌ„ this hower nor Let this Cup passe from me as
was not contemptible to God himselfe by your assertioÌ„ It was not therefore that onely but some other death farre more dreadful and intollerable which made Christ man being also God in such wise to tremble and quake In deed Christ had farre greater cause as you say to feare even his bodily death then any of his Members have For it was therefore because death approched vnto him clasped fast with Hell so that he could not by the ordinance of God meddle with one but he must feele the other And thus he did not contemplate and looke on them a farre of nor had to doe with one more then the other but by suffering one he felt both and by induring one he indured both And thus in deed Christ was left by God to the full naturall sense of his bodily torments But the Godly and the Martyrs deale only with bodily Death the paines of Hell or of Gods wrath they feare not because they know by Christes suffering the same they are abolished removed farre from them Sin staÌ„deth not threatning theÌ„ in the prefence of God as it stood now at this time against Christ our Suertie and Ransom-payer Nay they deale not with Bodily death wholely and naturally for they have Gods comfort with them to mitigate it which Christ nowe felt not Yea they mind not their paines very much for their great hope and ioy presenly following but this was all overclowded in Christ at this instant Therefore he had exceeding great cause to be affrighted and terrifyed to cry out with bitter teares though the godly have cause to triumph sing in Death Thus also you forget * my argumeÌ„t 〈◊〉 1.51 that Christ alwayes charged his Disciples not to take their bodily Death heavily for righteousnes sake Ergo He him selfe would never be so dismayed with the feare of it Heere you have a notable sayinge in the margen whiche must not be forgotten we must preferre Christes suffering before all Martyrs * not for his paines 〈◊〉 26. but for his patience Not for his paines but for his patience A rare distinction If you could make vs believe that the greatest patience is tryed and discerned where the smallest paines are then you said somewhat I know Christes patience was perfit in all his paines both small great and so is not the patience of his servants in their paines neither small nor great But what is this to our purpose We speake not of his inward habit of patience which our faith beleeveth to be in him but of the outward triall and discerning thereof by naturall meanes signes wherevnto it pleased him now to submit his patience after the verie course and operation of Nature Wherefore as Christ had in him indeed farre more patience then we have so it is out of doubt when he came to the chiefest trial thereof in his Passion he would not in any wise as he did shewe lesse in vse then many men doe vnles the trial encouÌ„tring thereof in him were infinitly greater By this also we may see how vaine your next coniecture is that he feared in his Agonie Corporall castigation above his strength 〈◊〉 22.24 For why may not Martyrs and others feare as much cruelty extraordinarie torments at the handes of men as Christ had cause to doe Againe why should the feare of any whatsoever meere bodily paines so overcome his patience as outwardly it seemed at this time Why should he not be able to beare it quietly And principally seeing he knew well enough before what his death should be and that God had vnchangeably appointed it for him Wherefore in no wise ought he so to shunne and shrinke from his meere bodily paines if they were no greater which hee suffered If a Pag. 2 you meane that he felt greater concurring in and with his bodily punishment inflicted by the wrathfull hand of God b Pag. 2 armed with infinit vengeance then you say well and we acknowledge it Your other c Pag. 2. 27. Cause is for that by death his body should want a while the feeling of Gods presence But did not Christ perfitly know that this was Gods decree and certaine appointment yea his owne most free will purpose And shall we imagine that Christ would expreslie pray against that knowen will of his Father yea against his owne Call you this d Pag. 2â— greater perfection in him then was in other men Againe could this thing in any reason be such a horrible griefe vnto him to have his flesh ly dead without paine for a day and a few howers yet his Soule coÌ„tinually living and inioying the coÌ„fort of God and that for such an occasion as to procure thereby the Salvation of mankinde would the thought of this make him sweat bloud for grief and to need an Angell from heaven to comfort him and to pray 3. times vehemently that this Cup might passe from him verily it is vnreasonable to thinke so Which Cause also if it were true is flatly contrary to your e Pag. 29â— owne resolution But of all these I wonder where you have found anie inkling that any of these may be beleeved to bee the true and effectuall cause of Christes most dreadfull Agonie You say excellent f As be 〈◊〉 have nâ—â— pag. 28. well but by your practise in all matters so farre as I see you never meane to observe it g Epist paâ— in Gods cause let Gods booke teach vs what to beleeve and what to professe h Pag. 91 I love to followe and not to lead the holy Ghost In matters of so great depth I dare not wade without or before my guide Againe i Pag. 41. what I reade in Gods worde that I beleeve what J read not that I doe not beleeve Shewe mee then where you read in Gods word any or all these to be effectuall Causes of this strange Agonie or some sure grounde whence evidently we may gather so much or els for my part I shall never bever beleeve you Your Sixt and k Pag. 27. c. last maine Cause is that Christ by this his bloudy sweat and vehement prayers did nothing but voluntarily performe that true bloudy Offering and Priesthood prefigured in the Law This we simply grant it hindreth not our Assertion Except you meane voluntarily in such sense that hee was not also vrged therevnto by any violence of paines or feare procuring it in him naturally Wherein you seeme to labour by bringing some Fathers and misapplying some Scriptures â—ag 29. and doe say that a you are content to admit also this exposition and of this with all the rest you pronouÌ„ce that b they are sound and well agreeing with Christian pietie â—ag 37. Yet is it contrary to c your resolution also yea it is contrary to the Scripture â—ag 290. expressing his d feare and vehement sorrowes and e discomfort to have caused his Agonie â—â—â—h 14. 〈◊〉 â—4
is the proper principall cause of his Agonie But what can bee meant by This Hower vnles the Paines of his suffering set and appointed by God for him to beare at this determined time from Gods Iustice for sinne What is this Cup but the bitter tast of the same Paines aforesaid This I hope was not his Holines and sanctification which so troubled and molested him not his Piety nor his Pity Nay finally he himselfe expresseth the true Cause even his excessive Paines his overabounding Sorrowes and anguish saying My Soule is full of paines or full of sorrowes even vnto death Heere hee nameth the Cause For which Cause also even of intolerable and vnsupportable sorrowes and paines it must needes be that he cryed at his end My God my God why hast thou for saken me This then manefestly was the only proper and principall cause of Christes most dreadfull Agonies and perplexity in his Passion even excessive Paines and the intire want of feeling of Gods comfort Pag. 17. and nothing els How hard soever b you make it I c know not why to shew the proper principall cause thereof Treat 1. Pag. 72. And heere wee will remember againe what is taught by Authority in England The rather for that you take on as a man impatient because I doe affirme that our doctrine not yours hath the publike Authorie for it Pag. 334. You d call it an egregiously an insolent and impudent speach well becomming an alehouse c. And yet in the verie next b Pag. â—â— page in plaine termes you graunt the same to bee taught in our Homily of Christes Passion for you say thus the Hom teacheth The Justice of God pursued Christe with most paynefull smart and anguish even vnto death and forced the weaknes of his humane flesh to cry My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Heere I am sure you think not that our Homelie maketh Christs Pietie or Pitie nor yet his meere Bodily paine to force him thus farre Nor in those wordes next following there c Hom â— Pass 2. O that Mankinde should put the everlasting Sonne of God in such paines for the grievousnes of our sinnes And in trueth that the Homily is farre from both these your meanings I have plainly shewed d Pag. 6 before Adde heerevnto the full and large declaration heereof in the authorised Catechisme e Nowe techisâ—â— Christ suffered not only a common death in sight of men but à lso was thoroughly touched with the horror of eternall death he fought and wrastled as it were hand to hand with the whole army of Hell before Gods iudgement seat he put him selfe vnder the heavy and grievous severitie of Gods punishment he was driven to most hard straights hee suffered for vs and went through horrible feares and moct bitter sorrowes of the minde that he might in all things satisfye the iust iudgement of God appease his wrath For to sinners whose person Christ did heere beare not only the sorrowes and tormentes of present death are due but also of death to come and everlasting So when hee did take vpon him and beare both the guiltines and iust paine of Mankinde damned and lost he was affected with so grievous feare trouble and sorrowe of the minde or soule that he cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Finally the Annotation of our great f Bibl. 1591. â— Bible authorized and appointed to be read in our Churches iustifyeth all this saying g Annoâ— Luk. 2â— Christ here felt the horror of Gods wrath and iudgement against sinne I pray who is that Egregious lyar now I hope for my part I have spoken the truth in avouching my doctrine that forenoted Proposition Assumption also by you denyed to be our publike doctrine and fully authorized in England Wherefore you may meane some other to be h Pag. â—â— a giddy Spirit lately buzzing in the peoples eares the coÌ„trary I hope I am clear from it And thus it remayneth that we conclude even our whole Reason to be firme true which is i Pag. 9â— before delivered The paines of Christes Passion which now he felt and feared were the principall and proper cause of those his Agonies But his meere Bodily Paines and death or the feare of them caused no such things and lamentable effectes in Christ much lesse did his Pietie and Pitie Therefore Christ felt and feared Paines more and infinitly greater then meere Bodily paine and death which were the principall and proper Cause of this strange plight in him Which consequently can be none other by necessary reason then the Paines and sense of Gods wrath in his spirite properly Therefore Christ suffered that also and not only in Body as you hold Howbeit you have yet heere and there some exceptions against this our doctrine which are not to be cleane neglected First you say â—ag 290. a I extend Châ—istes Agonie too farre because I will have it proceed from b the intollerable sorrowes and horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell Treat 1. â—â—g 80. I shew not there the Cause of Christes Agonie and Feare I shewed it of purpose in the c beginning Why did you not refuse that Treat 1. â—ag 6 7 You ought to have dealt directly against that which I expresly mention to have ben the cause Thus I said His Sorrowes and sufferings for the redemptioÌ„ of sinnes The Cup of Affliction and sorrowe which now he felt and was to feele yet further Caused him to mourne and feare Say then plainly that this Cause is mistaken and too farre extended or els you say nothing to vs but by indirect and pâ—aeposterous collectioÌ„ Now if this Cause which we gave and doe give be true and right as I hope it is before proved more then sufficiently then I doubt not it is as true also by invincible reason that Christ suffered the intollerable sorrowes horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell Which I hope also is as fully proved â—â—g 91. 117 being the effect of our d Assumption before Seeing it could not be his meere Bodily paines much lesse his Holy Affections as you hold that brought him to this miraculous miserie and distresse wherein wee see by the Text hee was Therefore they were the intollerable and incomprehensible dolours of his Spirit questionles which wrought the same There is no other sorrow in the world to be found which can be imagined to be the Cause possibly â—ag 290. And then my other wordes also which e heere you cruelly coÌ„demne shall stand well enough * That Christ as touching the vehemency of paine was as sharply touched as the Reprobats themselves â—reat 1. â—â—g 81. yea if it may be more extraordinarily Though you labour with might and maine to make them amount to Haeresie open blasphemie But why do you not bend your odious outcryes and accusations against that Authority before truly cited
begging only no further proceeding at all It is written â—â—rk 6.34 a He began to teach them many things Also b And Iesus aunswered them and began to say 〈◊〉 13.5 Take heede least any man deceave you 〈◊〉 10.45 c. And c He began to cast out them that solde in the Temple 〈◊〉 1.1 c. And d All that which Iesus began to doe and teach 〈◊〉 24.2 And e Tertullus began to accuse Paul saying c. It were very simple to say that the Scripture meaneth these things were only begun and no more Nay verily they were heere don to the full Againe as Christ was indeed astonished grievouslie perplexed so he did at the first but begin to be thus and then afterwards grew to the full Now these degrees and proceedings of Christ in his sorrorwes that they were not at the highest at once this worde heere he began may very well signifie For the text following doth invincibly shew that he did fully come to the extreamity of astonishment began not only For did he but begin when hee swet clotted bloud trickling from his body to the ground Also when an Angell was sent from Heaven to refresh and comfort him did he then but begin to be heavy Againe when most moornfully he complained that his Soule abounded with sorrowes even vnto death Finally when he 3. severall tymes prayed to his Father with strong crying teares and feare that the Cup of Gods punishments now given him to drinke might passe from him if it were possible which at other tymes he most perfectly knew that it neyther could nor should escape him wherevnto may be added that at last when he so dolefully complayned that his God had forsaken him was hee now all this while but begining to be troubled and sad You would have mademe ashamed of it if I had had any such thought in my minde Wherfore the text is no way abused as you pretend in that after he began I shew froÌ„ these places that he grew to be mightily astonished grievously perplexed As for Ierom if he deny this I must crave leaue to dissent from him I bring you say “ Pag. 29â— a fardell of phrases to expresse his Agonie he was amazed astonished forgetfull distempered overwhelmed and all confounded in the powers of his soule and senses of his body Yea and I thinke all to little sufficieÌ„tly to expresse our Lords sufferings for vs. All those words which I vsed and many mo cannot shew all that vnspekeable vehemeÌ„cy of Sorrow which now cast him into such a plight So far of it is that * Pag. 28â— I do the Lord of glory wrong when I labour but to shew how he loved vs and to what basenes of our nature he submitted him self for our sake For al these are but meere effects of natures infirmitie if it be oppressed with any infinit sorrow feare Seeing then Christ might be and was nowe thus infinitly afflicted as we have shewed why should we feare to acknowledge extreame Effectes in him where we have extreame Causes Nay God forbid that we should reioyce in any thing so much neither can wee praise magnify him for any thing so highly as we may ought for this extreame abasing of Christe for vs. 〈◊〉 Pilip 2. â— Remember your owne wordes out of Austin that there is in som men Insipiens honorisicentia a fond intent of honoring Christ. If there be any such surely this is one point thereof which you maintaine Mr Calvin a worthy Minister of Christ â—alvin â—ath â—6 and a pillar of the Church is bolde and saith Fatemur certe hanc esse crucis stultitiam quae scandaloest superbis hominibus We consesse indeed such is the basenes and folly of Christes Crosse that proud men cannot away with it In another place where I shewed from the more to the lesse â—eat â— pa. 57 howe Christe might have for the suddain the powers of his minde astonished and yet no decay in him of faith nor of obedience nor of patience nor of loue like as there is not in a man benummed bound in his senses more then Christ was namely in a man a sleepe or amazed with a violent blow on the head For thus any reasonable man would haue conceaved me seeing who would imagine that I thought Christ now to be altogeather so without sense as one that sleepeth or that lyeth in a swoune Heerevpon you aske me skoffingly Pag. 299. a was Christ a sleepe or in a swoune b cast into a traunce Pag. 120. or c in a fit of a Lethargie But what I doe thinke of Christs Agonie I haue said before Pag. 121. Indeed as d you grant that Amazednes and Astonishment commeth naturally from sorrowes and feares and that Pag. 293. both in these causes and effects there be divers degrees so I thinke in Christ both the one and the other was in the extreamest and most violent degree that might be And therefore no marvaile though his AstonishmeÌ„t were far greater then is to be seene in any man ells that ever was or shal bee The Lorde made Solomon to excell all others in e wisedome 1. Chro. 1.12 and riches and treasures and honour so that there hath not ben the like among the Kings which were before him neither after him shall there bee the like Of Christ I iudge we may altogither as truly and as fully say that the Lord made him so subiect to infirmities to suffering of sorrows that there hath not ben the like among meÌ„ which were before him neither after him shall there be the like And yet none of those your former imputations are true Pag. 300. But f for my life I cannot answer this that followeth All that Christ suffered was and must be meritorious with God The suffering of Hell paines which astonish and confound all the powers of the Soule and senses of the Body neither was nor could be meritorious with God Therefore Christ suffered not such paines as did astonish and confound his bodily senses and powers of his Soule I deny your Assumption Not only all Christs paines were meritorious but even all his very infirmities also his wearines his hunger his sleepe and so his astonishment amazednes being in him but a meere natural weaknes and infirmity was exceeding meritorious in him and highly accepted with God Man hath his meere infirmities all agreeable to Gods will but Christ directly and properly glorified God in and by them more then can bee vttered I say in every point whatsoever of his Humane infirmity and basenes wherevnto hee humbled himselfe If it seeme a hard phrase which in my former Treatise I vsed saying Christ at this instant became forgetfull of that which before he knew my meaning is and so still I speake now he remembred not he considered not Which many times wee vse to name forgetting but indeed strictly and properly it is
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
thereof Which in trueth these our wordes in question doe well performe He came vnder the Dominion of Death or Went to the societie of the Dead following presently after these wordes Dead Buried And thus your 2. Rule alse Consequence of order is rightly kept For euen in respect of time it is certaine that Christs whole person perishing froÌ„ hence was wholy ioyned to the Dead after the precise separation of his Soule and body which was his Death And his Buriall being the visible part thereof in good reason may be set before that which signifieth the whole contayning also his Soules invisible going vnto the Dead Lastly if there be no more in this but a stronger emphasis meerely a more full-signifying phrase it might well come after termes of lesse emphasis Your 3. and last Rule Proprietie of Wordes is plainly for vs and against your selfe For that which we strive for is the a Pa. 157 169 17â— native and proper sense of Hades even according to the etymologie of it and according to common vse You if you vrge it to signifie Hel do indeed make a †Pa. 171. Figure in it viz. Synecdoche a part for the whole as before we haue shewed As for the other word heere in the Creed katébe or katélthe Hee descended or came vnder it is not necessarie to take it alwayes to signifie a locall going downe specially thus ioyned with Hades For thus it may aptly lively shew the fall or whole casting down of a mans person from the state of life to death and vtter destruction out of this world as also men are said to stand vp and spring vp when they live Or it may serue to expresse the Force and Dominion of Death which Christ came vnder when he dyed Or the abasement and humiliation of Christ yeelding submitting him selfe so farre that is not onely to Dy but also to come vnder the strength and force of death by lying held subdued as it were for so long time in it All this the very property of the word katebe admitteth very easilie and Ruffinus liketh it where he interpreteth this phrase â—uffin in â—â—mb Descendit in mortem He descended vnto Death If any thinke this to be somewhat figurative yet it is verily so familiar and easie to all people as that other word in this Creed is He sitteth at the right hand of God yea it is farie easier indeed And heerein all the later famous learned and godly Restorers of Religion in a maner doe ioyne with vs as Mat. Bucer P. Martyr Bulinger â—â—slitut Olevia c. Yea M. Calvin liked this also wel enough though yet he seemeth to leane more to another sense viz. Christes Hellish sufferings which indeed is a true doctrine as before is declared though to this place of the Creed I thinke not so fit Now these men your L. ought not to skorne nor reproch though you have leave to deale so with me Their pietie learning and authoritie is such with all that love the Gospell as will overwaigh your big wordes and high lookes and whatsoever els you are lifted vp withal aboue our mediocritie Hitherto we haue answered admitting the authoritie of these wordes He descended to Hades But wee are in truth to know â—ere that as you cite them and vige them they have no such authoritie credit as hitherto we have yeelded vnto them And that for 3. causes First for that your TraÌ„slating and terming them He descended into Hel is corrupt partiall and vntrue Which I trust is manifest by that which I have shewed before touching the true property natural vse of Hades If you say among vs all men do so speak heere and translate hades Hel. I pray you coÌ„sider that this article as also I think this whole Creed was at first written in Greek and not in English Wherefore the English terme how comon so ever must not preiudice vs nor the truth in this matter as very vnreasonably a you indeavour to make it to do â—â—g 420. Convince vs evidently and soundly by Greek authoritie that Hades is alwayes Hell or that Hades is never applyed to the condicion and state of the godly deceased and then I will yeeld or els my sufficient proofes before to the contrary will convince the vntrue and partiall translation Another reason to deny vtterly the authority and credit of these wordes He descended to hades so to hold them vnable to make any argument as from our Creed is because this speciall clause of Christs descending to Hades or to Infernum is new and lately put into our vulgar Creed called the Apostles Creed b Ruffin Symb. Ruffinus witnesseth who lived about 500. yeeres after Christ that it was not at all in the Creed in his time I say not at allâ— neither in the Romane Creed nor yet in the Creed of the Easterne Churches His words are these Sciendum sanè est quod in Ecclesiae Romanae symbolo non habetur additum Deseendit ad inferna sed nee in Orientis Ecclesiis habetur hic sermo Will you say Ruffinus lyeth Or can you bring to the contrarie any proofe I think not yea I am sure you can not Then if there were no such Article as this nor anie such wordes any where in the Creed for the space of 500. yeres after Christ I mervaile what authoritie they haue now to be taken necessarily for a distinct article in our Creed and as differing materially from Dead and Buried Sure it is a Namely Desâ—â—â—le Hades to new to be receaved for doctrine which b Pag. 13â— sprang vp so late Yea thus c Erasm 〈◊〉 Symb. Caâ—â— 4. Erasmus may seeme to haue some colour for his coniecture that about Thomas Aquinas time they might peradventure be put into this Creed Third we can not see but that whensoever whosoever put it first into this place they signified heereby it seemeth that Christ went to Limbus a place vnder the earth where they imagined the blessed Patriarkes rested For this was indeed the opinion generally of the ancient Christians even for “ Limbus inter tayâ— before Châ—â— descendinâ— bades waâ— our set â—câ— oâ— the Crâ—â— a long time and stil is retayned among the Papistes though now growen much worse theÌ„ it was of old But this you iustly coÌ„demne as an error as wel as we how generall and how ancient soever it be Now also though this were the 1st meaning of this Article whensoever it fiâ—fte tooke place in the common Creed yet this was not Hell this giveth no furtherance to your assertion that Christ went into the place of the Damned in tormentes But Thaddaeus Jgnatius Athanasius haue these very words Yet they say not any where that they were in that set forme of the Apostles Creed * Which â—â—deed they 〈◊〉 had not which we now have Also they are cleane against your opinion heere as presently wee shall see You will say yet