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cause_n	action_n	bring_v	case_n	1,979	5	6.5772	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13028	An assertion for true and Christian church-policie VVherein certaine politike obiections made against the planting of pastours and elders in every congregation, are sufficientlie aunswered. And wherein also sundrie projectes are set downe, how the discipline by pastors & elders may be planted, without any derogation to the Kings royal prerogatiue, any indignitie to the three estates in Parleament, or any greater alteration of the laudable lawes, statutes, or customes of the realme, then may well be made without damage to the people.	Stoughton, William, fl. 1584.; Knollys, Francis, Sir, d. 1643.	1604 (1604)	STC 23318; ESTC S117843	177,506	448

them as by any of the reverende Bishops or venerable Archdeacons their Chancelors or Officials If there be ame exception alleaged by the defendant as of composition prescription or privilege the Kinges Iustices are as able to iudge of the validitie of these as they are now able to determine customes de modo decimandi or of the vse of high wayes of making and repayring of bridges of commons of pasture pawnage estovers or such like Trueth it is that of legacies and bequestes of Legacies how they may be recouered at the cōmon lawe goods the reverend Bishops by sufferance of our Kinges and consent of our people haue accustomablie vsed to take cognyzance and to hold plea in their spirituall Courts Notwithstanding if the legacie be of landes where landes be divisible by Testament the iudgement thereof hath ben alwayes vsed and holden by the Kings writ and never in any ecclesiasticall Court Wherfore if it shall please the King to enlardge the authoritie of his Courtes temporall by commandinge matters of legacies and bequestes of goods aswell as of landes to be heard and determined in the same it were not much to be feared but that the Kings Iustices the Kings learned Counsell and others learned in the law of the Realme without any alteration of the same law would spedelie find meanes to applie the grounds thereof aswell to all cases of legacies and bequests of goods as of landes For if there bee no goods divisible by will but the same are graūtable and confirmable by deede of gift could not the Kings Iustices aswel iudge of the gift of the thing given by will as of the graunt of the thing graunted by deede of gift or can they not determine of a legacie of goods aswell as of a bequest of landes If it should come in debate before them whether the Testator at the time of making his will were of good perfect memorie vpon profes and other circumstances to bee opened and made of the Testators memorie by livelie testimonies either the Admonitor must condemne the Kinges learned and discreete Iustices to be 〈◊〉 mentis insanae memoriae or els it must be confessed that they be as well able to iudge of the distraction of wits and vnsoundnes of memorie in a person deceased as they be to determine the question of Lunacie madnesse or idiocie in a man living If anie question should arise vpon the revocation of a former will of the ademptiō of a legacie or of a legacie giuen vpon cōdition or in diem it would be 〈◊〉 matter for the learned Iudges vpon sight of the Will and proofes to be made to define which is the first and which is the last will whether the legacie remayne or whether it be revoked whether it be legatum per rerum or 〈◊〉 whether condicionall or without condition And if it bee condicional whether the same be possible or impossible honest or dishonest and if it be 〈◊〉 whether the day bee past or to come But there lyeth no action at the commō lawe for a legatorie against the executor to recover his legacie I graunt But a creditor to recover his d●●t due by the testator vpon specialtie may bringe an action at the common law against the executor And then what is the cause that a creditor may recover his debt that a legatorie can not recover his legacie in the Kinges Court but onlie for that remedie could not be giuen vnto legatories complaynantes by any writt out of the Chancerie And therefore that such plaintifes might not be deferred of their right 21. Ed. 1. statute vpon the writt of consultation remedie in such cases to their great damage it hath pleased the Kinges by sufferance to tolerate the Church officers to determine these cases Wherefore if it might please the King to cause Writtes to bee made out of his Court of Chancerie for the recoverie of Legacies it were cleere by the common law of the Realme as from the statute may be gathered that the cognizance of these cases did not appertayne anie more to the spirituall Court. For then might the legatorie by that Writt bring an actiō against the executor to obteine his Legacie But how should that action be tryed How even as other actions of debt detinue or trover be tried namelie as the case should require either by the countrey or by the Iudges vpon a moratur in lege As Testamentes with their adherences so likewise matters of Spousalles Matters of mariages more meete to bee decided by the Kings then by the Bb. officers Mariages divorces c. togither their accessories by common right of the Imperiall Crowne did in auncient times properlie apperteyne to the examinations and sentences of the Emperours them selues to their Provostes Deputies and Presidentes of Cities and Provinces as by the several titles de Testamentis Legatis Fidei commissis Nuptijs repudijs divortio dote c. in the books of the civil law appeareth By the Law of England also the King hath the mariadge of an heyre being within age in his warde Widowes also that hold of the King in chiefe must not marie them selues without the Kings licence And by an Act made 4. and 5. Phil. and Mary there is a streight punishment provided against all such as shall take away Maydens that be inheritors being within the age of sixteene yeres or marie them without consent of their Parentes And what reason letteth them that the King might not as well haue the care and cognoyzance of all the cōtractes of mariage especially of the mariage of all children and Widowes in his temporall Courtes as he hath of some parties to bee contracted of the Dower of the ioynture of the dis aragment of the age of the 〈…〉 way of the deflouring and of manage without parentes consent in some cases or what a verie great alteration of the common Law could ensue in case the Kings temporall Iustices did examine and determine whether the contract were a pefect and simple or condicionall contract yea or no For if vpon the statute made by Phi. and Mary that Maydens and Women children of Noble men Gentlemē c. being heyres apparant c. and being left within age of xvj yeares should not marie against the will or vnknowing of or to the Father or against c. If I say vpon the publishing of this Act there hath no alteration of the common law hitherto followed it is but a meere superstitious errour to feigne that a change of the cōmon law must followe if so be this statute were extended to all children both Sonnes and Daughters of what parentage sexe estate or age so euer For if the King in his temporall Courts had the definitiō of all aswell as of some contractes made by children without consent of parents then should a multitude of lewde and vngodlie contractes made by flatterie trifling gifts faire and goodly promises of many vnthriftie and light personages

deforced wronged or otherwise kept or put from his lawfull inheritāce estate seysin c. of in or to the same by anie person clayming or pretending to haue interest or title in or to the same that then in all and euerie such case the person so disseysed deforced or wrongfullie kept from his right or possession shall and may haue his remedie in the Kings temporal Courtes as the case shal require for the recouvery of such inheritance by writt originall c. to be devised and graunted out of the Kinges Court of Chancerie in like maner c. It is there likewise provided that that Act shal not extend nor be expounded to giue anie remedie cause of action or suite in the Courtes temporall against any person which shall refuse to set out his Tythes or which shall deteigne c. his Tythes and offerings But that in all such cases the partie c. having cause to demand or haue the same tythes shal haue his action for the same in the Ecclesiasticall Courtes accordinge to the ordenance in the first part of that act mentioned and none otherwise Now then sit hence euery person whether he be laie or Ecclesiasticall having ●●ght to demand tythes and offeringes hath the partie from whom those tythes 〈◊〉 due bound obliged vnto him and thence also the partie not dividinge yeelding or paying his tythes doth actuallie and reallie deteigne the same and thereby doth vniustlie wrong the partie to whom they be due contrarie to iustice the Kings lawes sithence I say these things be so what alteratiō or disadvantage could befall or ensue to the common law or the Professors thereof if so bee it might please the King with his Parleament to haue the last part of this Act so to be explaned extended and enlarged as that the same might giue remedie in the Kings temporall Courts by writt original to be devised granted out of the Chācerie against any person deteigning his tythes and offerings● the Hospitall of St Leonards in Yorke of the Kings foundatiō and Patronage Hospitall of S. Leonard 1. 2. H. 6. c 2 endowed of a thrave of corne to be taken yerely of euery ploūgh earing with in the Counties of Yorke Comberlande Westmerland and Lancaster hauing no sufficient or covenable remedie at the common law against such as withheld the same thraves it was ordeigned by the King in Parleament that the Maister of the said Hospitall and his successors might haue actions by writt or plaintes of debt or detinue at their pleasure against all and every of them that deteyned the same thraves for to recover the same thraves with their damages And by a statute 32. H. 8. c. 44. it is enacted That the Parsons and Curates of five parish churches whereinto the Towne of Roysen did extend it selfe and everie of them the successors of every of them shall haue their remedie by authoritie of that Act to sue demaund aske recover in the Kings Court of Chancerie the Tythes of corne hay wooll lambe and calfe subtracted or denyed to bee paide by any person or persons Againe Vicars Parsons or Improprietaries do implead any man in the ecclesiasticall Court for tythes of wood beeing of the age of 20. yeeres or aboue for tyth-hay out of a medow for the which tyme out of mind memorie of man there hath onely some Meade-silver bin paied or if a debate hang in a spirituall Court for the right of tythes having his originall from the right of Patronage the ●uātite of the same tythes do passe the ●urth part of the value of the benefice prohibition in all these and sundrie other cases doth lie and the matters are to be tried and examined in the Kinges Courts according to the course of the common lawe vnlesse vpon iust cause there be graunted a consultation And if in these cases in maintenance of the common law the defendants haue relief in the Kinges Courts I thinke it more meete to leave it to the consideration rather of cōmon then to the iudgemēt of canon Lawiers to determine what alteration the common law could sustayne in case all Plaintiffes aswell as some defendants might pray the Kings ayd for the recovery of tythes especially seeing at this day the maner of paying tythes in England for the most part is now limited by the cōmon and statute lawes of the Realm and not by any forraigne canon law Obiect But there is some fact happely so difficile so secreat and so mystical in these causes of tythes as the same cannot without a very great alteration of the common law be so much as opened before a lay Iudge or of the hidden knowledge wherof the Kings temporall Iudges are not capable Answere Why then let vs see of what nature that inextricable fact may bee I haue perused many libels made and exhibited before the ecclesiasticall What facts touching the witholding of tythes are examinable in the ecclesiasticall Courts Iudges yea and I haue read them over and over and yet for grounde of complaint did I never perceave any other materiall and principall kinde of facte ' examinable in those Courts but onely such as follow First that the partie agent is eyther Rector Vicar Proprieiarie or Possessor of such a Parish-Church and of the Rectorie Vicarage farm possession or dominion of the same and by vertue thereof hath right vnto all Tythes oblations c. apparteyning to the same Church and growing with on the same Parish bounds limitts or places tythable of the same Secondly that his predecessors Rectors Vicars c. tyme out of minde and memorie of man haue quietly and peaceably receaued and had all and singular Tythes oblations c increasing growing and renuing within the Parish c. and that they and he haue bin and are in peaceable possession of hauing and receaving Tythes oblations c. Thirdly that the partie defendant hath had and received in such a yere c. of so many sheepe feeding and couching within the said Parish c. so many fleeces of woll and of so many ewes so many lambes c. Fourthly that the defendant hath not set out yealded or paid the Tyth of the wooll and lambe and that every Tyth fleece of the said wooll by common estimation is worth so much and that every Tyth lamb by cōmon estimation is likewise worth so much c. Fiftly that the defendant is subiect to the iurisdiction of that Court wherevnto hee is sommoned Lastly that the defendant doth hetherto deny or delay to pay his Tythes notwithstanding hee hath bin requested there vnto These and such like are the chief matters The Kinges Iustices are as able to iudge of exceptions against tithes as the ecclesiastical Iudges of fact wherevpon in the ecclesiasticall Courts proofes by witnesses or recordes rest to be made for the recoverie of tythes And who knoweth not but that these facts vpon proofes made before the Kinges Iustices may aswell bee decided by

the Kings prerogative Royall be duely advanced Which things if it might please them rightly to consider then let them humblie and seriouslie beseech our Sovereine Lord the King and States in Parleament to giue their consentes to such a law as the proiect ensuing may warrant thē the same not to be dangerous to the overthrowe of their civill studies The Proiect of an Act for the explanation and amplifying of one branch of a statute made in the first yeere of the raigne of Queene Elizabeth entituled An Act restoringe to the Crowne the ancient iurisdiction over the state Ecclesiasticall and also for the declaring and reviving of a statute made in the first yere of King Edward the sixt entituled An Act what seales and stiles Bishops and other spiritual persons exercising iurisdiction ecclesiasticall shall vse FOr asmuch as by one braunch of an Act made in the first yeere of our late Soveraigne Ladie of blessed memorie Queene Elizabeth entituled an Act restoring to the Crowne the auncient iurisdiction over the state Ecclesiastical Spirituall and abolishing all forraigne power repugnant to the same it was established and enacted That such iurisdictions priviledges superiorities and preheminences spiritual and ecclesiasticall as by anie spirituall or ecclesiasticall power or authoritie hath heeretofore bin or may lawfully be exercised or vsed for the visitation of the Ecclesiasticall state and persons and for reformation order correction of the same and of all maner errors heresies schismes abuses offences contempts and enormities should for euer by authoritie of that present Parleament be vnited and annexed to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme by meanes whereof it may now be made a questiō whether any Archbishops or other Ecclesiasticall persons having since that time vsed or exercised any such spirituall or ecclesiasticall iurisdiction in their owne right or names might lawfully haue done or hereafter may lawfully doe the same without speciall warrant and authoritie derived immediatly frō your Highnes by and vnder your H. letters patents And whereas also by a statute made in the first yeare of Kinge Edward the sixt entituled an act what seales and stile Bishops or other spirituall persons shall vse it was ordained that all and singular Archbishops and Bishops others exercising ecclesiastical iurisdictiō should in their processe vse the Kings name and stile and not their owne and also that their Seales should bee graved with the Kings armes And forasmuch also as it must bee highly derogatorie to the Imperiall Crowne of this your Highnesse Realme that any cause whatsoever ecclesiasticall or temporall within these your H. Dominions should be heard or adiudged without warrant or commission from your Highnes your heyres successors or not in the name stile and dignitie of your Highnes your heyres and successors or that anie seales should be annexed to anie promesse but onelie your Kinglie seale and armes May it therefore please the King at the humble supplication of his Commons to haue it enacted That the aforesaid branch of the aforesaid Act made in the first yeere of Queene Elizabeth her raigne everie part thereof may still remayne for ever be in force And to the end the true intent and meaning of the said statute made in the first yeere of King Edward the sixt may be declared and revived that likewise by the authoritie aforesaid it may be ordayned and enacted that all and singular Ecclesiastical Courts and Consistories belonging to any Archb. Bb. Suffraganes Colege Deane and Chapiter Prebendarie or to any Ecclesiasticall person or persons whatsoever and which haue heretofore bin commonly called reputed taken or knowne to bee Courts or Consistories for causes of instance or wherein any suite complaint or action betwene partie and partie for any matter or cause wherin iudgment of law civil or canon hath bin or is required shall and may for ever hereafter be reputed taken and adiudged to be Courts and iudgmentseats meerely civill secular and temporall and not hence foorth Ecclesiasticall or spirituall and as of right belonging and apperteyning to the Royall Crowne and dignitie of our Soveraigne Lorde Kinge Iames that nowe is his heyres and successors for ever And that all causes of instance and controversies betwene partie partie at this day determinable in any of the said Courts heretofore taken and reputed ecclesiasticall shall for ever hereafter bee taken reputed and adiudged to be causes meerely civill secular and temporall as in trueth they ought to be and of right are belonging and appertayning to the iurisdiction of the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme And further that your H. liege people may be the better kept in awe by some authorised to be your H. Officers Ministers to execute iustice in your Highnes name and vnder your H. stile and title of King of England Scotlād Frāce and Ireland defendor of the faith c. in the said Courtes and Constories and in the said causes and controversies Bee it therefore enacted by the authoritie aforesaid That all the right title and interest of in and to the said Courts and Consistories and in and to the causes controversies aforesaide by any power iurisdiction or authoritie heretofore reputed Ecclesiasticall but by this Act adiudged civill secular and temporall shall for ever hereafter actually and reallie be invested and appropried in and to the Royall person of our Soveraigne Lord the King that now is his heyres successors Kinges and Queenes of this Realme And that it shall and may bee lawfull to and for our saide Soveraigne Lord and King his heyres and successors in all and everie Shire and Shires Diocesse and Diocesses within his H. Dominions and Countries by his and their letters patents vnder the great Seale of England from tyme to tyme and at all tymes to nominat and appoint one or moe able and sufficient Doctor or Doctors learned in the civill law to be his and their civil secular and temporal Officer and Officers Minister and Ministers of Iustice in the same civill secular and temporall Courts Consistories which in and ouer his and their royall name stile and dignitie shall as Iudge and Iudges doe perform execute all and every such act and acts thing and things whatsoeuer in and about the execution of iustice and equitie in those Courts according to the course and order of the civill lawe or the Ecclesiasticall canons and constitutions of the Realme as heretofore hath bin vsed and accustomed to bee done by for or in the name of any Archbb. Bb College Cathedral Church Deane Archdeacon Prebendary or any other Ecclesiasticall person or persons whatsoeuer And that all and every such civill secular and temporall Officer and Officers Minister and Ministers Iudge Iudges in his and their processe shall vse one manner of Seale only and none other hauing graued decently therein your Kingly armes with certaine characters for the knowledge of the Diocesse or Shire And further bee it enacted c That it shall and may be lawfull by

before such time as he did heare or see the Parish Clerke to trudge with the Church-dore keyes to let in the Sextin to ring the bell for the saide Parson or Vicars induction and reall possession And if the people of every Parish had their consents in the choyse and approbation of their Minister were it possible to haue lesse acquaintāce with him then this For we avow that the people ought not to giue their consents vnto any Pastour before they haue seene him before they haue heard him devide the worde before they haue procured a good testimonie of his gifts from those who by the worde haue interest to approove him and lastly before they haue gotten sufficient notice of his condition estate conversation birth education and life Wherefore these thinges being carefully and diligently searched into not by one but by many not for a fee but of duty not for reward but for conscience not for one day but for many dayes I trust it will not still bee holden for an oracle that the people should haue as litle acquaintance with their Ministers as now they haue As for the seconde point that farre No partiall suits cā follow the election of Ministers by the people greater occasions of partiall suits should follow this manner of common electiō whereof we speake then nowe there is this is also I say not true nay that farre l●sse occasion of partiall suites should follow then now there is this I saye is true For by this meanes all partiall suites now happening may eyther bee extinguished or with lesse charges pursued then now they be For there can bee no suites much lesse can there bee anie partiall suites when neither Plaintif nor defendant may be foūd where also there can lie no writ nor any action be commenced For who be the parties betweene whom these partiall suites should arise Be there many Ministers who for one place and at one time are found meete for the same And do they sue and contende one against another which of them should possesse the place or should these so many partiall suites consist betweene the inhabitants of one Parish one part leaning to one side and another part cleaving to the other side Touching the Ministers we affirme that none may or ought to sue or sollicit any mans voyce directly or indirectly much lesse to labour for a place of Ministerie And therefore we desire by an irrevocable law according to the manner of the Medes and Persians to haue it enacted That as well every procurer and labourer for a voyce as also every suitor and sollicitor for a place of Ministerie bee adiudged ipso facto incapable for ever of the same place For the second touching partiall suits to arise betwene the No occasion of partiall suits about election betweene parishioners Parishioners about the election of their Pastour these suits for ought I yet conceaue wherein I graunt I may erre and conceave too litle may easelier bee dispatched then bee once begunne Parishioners ordinarily in the Countrie sue not ne molest one the other for pleasure but for profit they are not so lavish of their purses nor so carelesse of their thrifts as to iangle in vaine when before hand they know there is no hope of gayne And in deed what advantage or what pleasure should Ancientes divided against Ancientes and chief men distracted against chief men in a Parish about the election of a Minister reape by such a division and distraction Besides by our daylie experience wee haue learned that verie rarely or not at all about elections made by the people of any officers eyther in the Countrie or in Cities and Townes anie variance or partiall suites haue bene stirred betweene the Electors For though some times perhappes they varie in their iudgementes one from another yet rest they more wise provident then to empaire their owne estate to advance an other mans reputation And if in former times there hath no occasiō of partial suits touching publike Officers in the common weale No partiall suites can be among parishioners when one only is propounded to bee chosen by them fallen out betwene the people when out of a multitude they haue chosen one much lesse can there be any occasion of partiall suits if onlie there remaine but one to be chosen to be a Church-Officer For if all the ancients agree to chuse that one then is all the suite about him ended and if the greater part disagree yet this their disagreement can bee no occasion to breed and nourish suite and contention And why first because no other cause by the greater part ought to bee alleaged to withdraw their consent but only such a cause as the law should precisely allowe in the same case to be a iust cause Secondly because this iust cause before the day of election ought to be made known vnto the Magistrate and by him to bee approved so that if the greater parte vpon the day of election shall dissent not having before hande alleaged and provided a iust cause of their dislike the voyces of the lesser part as being supposed the better part shall prevaile confirme and make good the election Oh! heere is much saide my Lordes spoken of a choise election to be made by the Ministers people by proofes to be made before the Magistrate but here is not any one word spoken or any mention made of the Patrone of the Bishop or of the Archdeacon of presentation institution or induction And what an alteration and innovation would that bee and what a dangerous attempt were it to alter lawes setled and that Patrones should be curbed and that Bishops and Archdeacons should not medle in these businesses any more Well then to wipe away as much as in me lyeth this cavillous reproch obloquie from the servants of God who are chalenged to bee newfangled giddie-headed fanaticall spirites strange innovators and desirers of perilous alterations to wipe away I say this slaunder If it may please the King with his The forme of Church policie now in practise by the Bishops the platforme of Church policie desired to bee planted by Pastours compared together Princely wisdome to conferre the forme of pollicie now in vse and practise touching ordinations presentations institutions and inductions by Bb. Patrones Archdeacons with the maner of that platforme of Discipline cōcerning the substance of these things which is propounded And if the Propounders preferre but the commaundement of God before the traditions of men but the Kings Crowne before the Bishops Myters but a feast of fat things yea of fatt things full of marrow before leane spits and emptie platters but a feast of wines yea of wines fined and purified before sower vntoothsome whey I hope his Maiestie will gratiouslie vouchsafe so to protect the propoūders being his faithfull loving and obedient subiectes as that hereafter they shall not be charged with any moe so vniust and scandalous imputations

Archdeacons Chancelours and Officials Therefore there may be or wil be moe excōmunicated by their Lordships their Archdeacons Chancelours c. then in Communion The assumptiō though I cannot warrant the same to be simply true yet I may safely warrant it to be drawen from the Admonitors owne experience For I let passe sayth he that experience teacheth that men of stubbernes will not shunne the cōpany of them that be excommunicated c. and that they must bee excommunicated Bishoply excommunication hath manie deformities for keeping of company with them And so it will fall out that moe will bee excommunicated then in communion but this last consequence say I cā not follow vnlesse he first presuppose both his antecedents to be true And therfore because he must needs be intended to haue spoken of that kind of excommunication whereof he hath had experience it followeth that these deformities and inconveniences whereof he speaketh must needes be found in that excommunication which he his vse For of the other kind of excommunication hee neuer yet had any experience And then by experience he could not speake If he spake not of his owne experience but of the experience of some other men then haue we but litle cause to beleeue him because wee know not what maner persons those were from whom he drew his argument of experience and whether they reported deceytfully or truely of their own experience or no. And if this argument drawn from the experience of his owne maner of Discipline be of sufficiēt validitie to impugne as he weaneth that Discipline by excommunication which so much as he saith is cryed for and whereof as yet hee never had experience how much more effectuall then is this argument to overthrow that his own maner of discipline which he so long time to so small profit and with so great inconveniences deformities hath so vnprofitably practised For can there be any greater deformitie By discipline of Bishopply excommunication one may bee a community then that one member should be supposed to bee the whole body or that one man should make a communitie And yet this deformitie by his experience may fall out to bee seene even vnder that discipline which every ordinarie exerciseth For if by processe ex mero officio an ordinarie should excommunicate any one of his iurisdiction for not communicating with an idoll minister or for holding that Christ in his soule did not descend into hell or for denying reading to bee preaching and withall should pronounce all them to be men of stubbernes which would not shunne the company of him so excommunicated And for that cause also should excommunicate them as is here supposed lawful to be done were it not a cleare case that the body of that church must now be taken to consist only in the person of the ordinary one member to become the whole body For if all vnder his iurisdiction were once exco●●municated how could then any bee in communion with him And if they all were once excommunicated must not the ordinary then alone be the common vnion and so make a communitie And what a deformed kinde of excommunication then is that kind of excommunication whereby it may fall out that to be one is to be many and that to bee a church a company a societie and a fellow●hip is to be one of which nature and of which kind that maner of excōmunication which by Pastours and Elders is to be executed can not be as hath already bin proved If then excommunication now vsed be a deformed kinde of discipline and therefore as we say to be no more tollerated and if excommunication by Pastours and Elders bee a kind of discipline for the incōvenience thereof as hee saith not to be planted what maner of discipline by excommunication would he haue in th●se dayes The Admonitor would haue no excommunication at all trowe we would hee haue none at all verely I suppose none at all For so doe ●his words plainely insinuate by two rea●●s following First saith he the loose 〈…〉 of these dayes require discipline of ●●arper lawes by punishment of body and danger of goods which they doe will more feare then they will excommunication Secondly wee haue saith he a very good maner of discipline by the Ecclesiasticall commission which doeth much good and would do more if it were more common But why did he not speake plainely and why did he not affirme devoutly that discipline by excommunication was good where the church was in persecution and that it is not necessary nor so convenient vnder a Christian Magistrate as it may be otherwise For if Pastors and Elders were appointed ioynt officers only for tim●s of pers●cution and not to be vnder Christian Princes it followeth these ioynt officers ceasing that al accessaries appēdices and consequences of their ioynt offices must also cease vnlesse it can bee proued out of the holy scriptures that the offices of Pastours ought stil to continue that the offices of Elders ought not to continue because the offices of Elders with all their appendices haue bene translated by our Saviour Christ vnto Archbishoppes Bishops Archdeacons their Chancelours Commissaries and Officials For vnlesse these Officers be Christs Officers the discipline which they vse cannot bind the consciences of the people of God And for this cause is it very probable that he so cōmendeth discipline of sharper lawes discipline by the Ecclesiasticall commission For if these officers by their discipline haue not to doe with the consciences of men then is it no merveyle that men feare not their discipline And therefore if they wil be stil officers it is requisite that they call for such a discipline as might cause men to stand in awe of their authoritie But were they indeed the officers of God and had they indeede authoritie from God to execute discipline by excommunication as Pastours and Elders did in the primitive Church then were the loosenes of this age never so great yet that the children of God in Englande would more feare the losse of goodes landes bodies or lives then the censure of Gods officers is one of the Admonitors paradoxes And here I appeale the consciences of all the reverend Bishops and Prelates in the lande and let them answere me hardly if they iudge themselues to be the children of God had seven times seven thousand liues whether they had not rather seven thousand times be cōmitted to the Iaylor of Winchester then once be delivered over to the Iaylor of Hell And are not all the children of God in Englande their brethren And are they not all led by one and the selfe same spirit And how then can they lesse feare excommunication which is a delivery of the soule to Sathan then the punishment of body and danger of goods And yet touching this point of excommunication he seemeth Admonitor supposeth it to be a fault not to excōmunicate that Prince and Rulers and