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B00812 A dialogue philosophicall. Wherein natures secret closet is opened, and the cause of all motion in nature shewed ovt of matter and forme, tending to mount mans minde from nature to supernaturall and celestial promotion: and how all things exist in the number of three. : Together with the wittie inuention of an artificiall perpetuall motion, presented to the kings most excellent maiestie. / All which are discoursed betweene two speakers, Philadelph, and Theophrast, brought together by Thomas Tymme, professour of diuinitie.. Tymme, Thomas, d. 1620. 1612 (1612) STC 24416; ESTC S95612 68,496 81

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Theophrast When the power which is in the seed that is to say when the preparation to bring in forme is come by daily encrease to full perfection it hath also obtained therewithall the forme of substance For forme necessarily followeth that perfection and neuer leaueth it For this cause Aristotle calleth Forme oftentimes by the name of Entelechia in regard of perfection either because it is an inseperable companion of perfect power or else because it doth fulfill and perfect it wholy Therefore as we say that perfection so also according to vsuall speech we say that forme is brought out of the power of the matter Philadelph Then it seemeth to me that forme is extracted out of the precurrent power no otherwise then act commeth out of the habit Theophrast The comparison which you haue made is fit to the purpose for by long custome and vse a Musitian or Harper hauing gotten a habit in deuiding his parts on his Instrument looseth not that habit though he fleepe but can readily when he awaketh shew his former skill according to his owne will Therefore as the act proceedeth from the habit or skill because the act cannot shew forth it selfe except the habit be first perfectly gotten so in like manner it fareth in the procreation of things For it is not Power that imprinteth the forme but an externall cause which notwithstanding being without the helpe of power should not haue strength enough of it selfe Philadelph I perceiue you well it is as if one hauing Science vseth it not yet when he hath will to make vse thereof he contemplateth and is in act a man of Science euen so what subiect so euer hath perfect power to beget a thing when the externall force of the agent commeth the same hath present action and forme And hereunto agreeth Aristotle who saith he which knoweth any thing if he haue his minde actually occupied in contemplation yet he keepeth his habit and hath not lost his Science in contemplating but doth rather amend and perfect it euen so that which hath receiued perfect power when the forme commeth putteth not off the quality of power but addeth thereto an ornament a perfection Thus you see I wel vnderstand you not peruerting your meaning I will now briefly repeate what hath beene spoken hetherto for my better memorie and also to let you see how well I haue obserued for my further knowledge that which at my request you haue deliuered to this effect following A briefe repetition of all that hath beene spoken Of all the things which the parent Nature hath brought forth the first constitution is made out of the inferiour and subiect matter and forme of the which two for as much as forme is farre the more excellent it is more often called forme then matter And as we doe see that the thing begotten is nothing permanent or stable but doth sometime fall and vanish away so that forme by which the thing did flourish cannot perpetually abide and cleaue to the matter but remoueth it selfe sometime and that very sodainly which shall be the destruction thereof But before forme came into matter it desired a certaine ornature and preparation of the same without the which it cannot enter there This preparation is called Power the which power is not so much as a portion nor the least mite of the approaching forme but onely a fore-running preparation or ordering of the matter Whatsoeuer hath begotten any thing is thought to haue employed and bestowed this power sometime by it selfe alone sometime with the seed or with a certaine Seminarie agreeing and answering thereto Therefore seeing power is a manifold and varying preparation of the body both out of those foure incorrupt beginnings of things which are the Elements with the temper made in the smallest proportion and wholy annexed together and a feat and comely conformation of the body with an apt coniunction of the parts therewith as also all commoderation and conueniencie of the naturall and in-set spirit this whole order of powers dependeth on the faculties and force of the seed and of him that cast the seed then when all preparation is fully finished which is when power is consumated then by a certaine naturall and ineuitable necessity the forme commeth and sheweth it selfe outwardly This forme is altogether simple without any composition of the formes of the subiects and yet is able to doe and further many things according to the seuerall faculties which it hath They which measure all things by the senses and haue an eye onely to the neerest cause contend and stifly holde that the forme is stirred vp and brought forth from out of the power of the matter which opinion they defend with strong arguments For the efficient or genitorie when he begetteth another thing of his name or kinde by himselfe or by the meanes of his seed or seminarie doth neither make nor yet put in the forme thereof but is the cause of this concourse onely namely that forme may be in the matter And this is that which is said to be the cause of the begotten and of the genitour which hath begotten But yet there is a more high most excellent workmaister who giueth forme outwardly by a certaine inspired motion This is the summe which hath bin hetherto spoken for my instruction Theophrast I commend your memory and collection in this repetition CHAP. IIII. Philadelph BY that which hath beene hitherto discoursed it appeareth that three things are in the composition of euery naturall thing to wit Matter Forme Temperament whereof two as principles namely Matter and Forme doe make euery thing but Temperament is onely in Matter which Matter is congealed and compacted out of the mixture of the first Elements of the world Now therefore declare whether the powers and forces of all things proceeded from these three and no more Theophrast Aristotle speaking of efficient causes propundeth some altogether without reason and some endued with reason and therefore saith Whatsoeuer things are the efficients of contrary works are partakers of reason and euery thing is deuoyd of reason which is the beginning of one worke onely hereupon I frame this argument Of the naturall causes and faculties which are without reason one cause is the beginning of one effect neither can moe or diuers effects proceede from one and the same but we obserue and see many effects and the same much different and vnlike of euery simple and naturall body therefore these cannot be referred to one common beginning but there must needes be many causes of these Philadelph Although this one beginning hath diuers causes and faculties yet I ascribe all those to Temperament except you shew vnto me that of these some doe proceede from Matter and some from Forme Theophrast First then I take this as granted from you that there are certaine forces and faculties in temperament Philadelph Should I denie that which is confirmed by the testimonie and opinions of all Philosophers Theophrast And
as by vse appertaineth vnto them together also with a fit and equall temperament of the Elements bringing to passe that euerie one singularly and particularly is of this or that temperament which some call the propriety of temperament and also the conformation and composition of the subiect is brought both to the whole body and also to the parts thereof by the faculty and power of the seed Thus haue I deliuered vnto you the two first orders of preparation according to my former diuision But the third preparation which is made by the vitall heate and spirit as it could not be finished by the contemperament of the Elements onely so more plainely and euidently then the rest it taketh originall and beginning at the seede For all men constantly affirme that the seede is full with heate and spirit and that it taketh such force from the Parents for the Parents intending to procreate and beget something like vnto themselues are preuented by death and doe faile before the same commeth to light as sometime it hapneth to seeds and plants after they are sowne and grafted prouident and industrious nature seeking the eternity of things looke what power and faculty was in the Parents to giue life and procreate the same hath she committed to a small portion of seede to bring forth the like by heate and spirit Let this for the present satisfie thy appetite another time you shall haue more CHAP. III. Philadelph YOu said before that power is a certaine preparation of Matter to receiue a certaine forme shew me now therfore I pray you whether these preparations which you say be in the seede are the same power or no Theophrast They are without all controuersie and doe returne into one and the same but for as much as there is nothing more common in the saying of the Philosophers then this word power nor more vehemently disputed of canst thou Philadelph shew mee how many wayes it is taken Philadelph If I be not deceiued I can The name of power diuersly taken 5. Metaph cap. 12. et 9. cap. 1. 2. 2. de Anima cap. 1. Aristotle first of all defined Power to be the beginning of motion and of alteration and for as much as the same is two-folde the one of effecting and the other of suffering hee therevpon decreed that there were two sorts of power saying that the power of effecting is the beginning of mutation in another whereof hee hath spoken much in his seauenth of Phisickes and the power of suffering is the beginning of mutation from another In cata qualitatis 9. Meta. capit 2. By which signification of the word he calleth the matter of euery thing power and the forme he calleth act and perfection Both of these are in the kinde of substances And for this cause somewhat is drawne to accidents which Aristotle is wont to call naturall power or impotencie For it is an hability or affection by whose helpe euery thing either doeth or suffereth Or if you please it is a certaine disposition or readinesse to doe or to suffer something to be done And thus he called all Arts powers of acting because they are the beginning of changing in another The like affections also he ioyneth to things that haue no life by the helpe whereof they doe either worke more speedily or else doe withstand and stop least by the force of the contraries they be changed into that which is worse the power of suffering is a certaine Diathesis whereby euery thing is readily conuerted into another state Theophrast Strike saile and anchour here a while for now you are come into your wished Hauen For the matter which we debate of now is the power of suffering which being in the matter as a certaine preparation maketh the same apt and fit for commutation and change Philadelph This is that power which Alexander Aprodisaeus said was the beginning put into matter whereby it was apt to take all things vpon it which should come out of it or from it Theophrast They which haue defined power to be a certaine preparation and ordering of matter albeit they thought it not fit to seeke further what manner of preparation that should be yet doe thrust vpon vs a prodigious false inuention and doe rather busie themselues about the name then seeke to know the things themselues Philadelph I pray you resolue me yet further concerning one doubt the which also is full of obscurity to many Whereas the Philosophers say that Forme is brought out of the power of the matter doe you thinke that these preparations when they haue receiued full perfection doe put from themselues Forme I know that Simplicius hath so written concerning this point in these words Nothing perfect commeth from that which is imperfect except power comming as a meane betweene addeth that which is wanting to perfection taking chiefe perfection from that which is most perfect I doubt not but these words of Simplicius are true yet I learne nothing by them Others teach me that power is a certaine quality which extendeth it selfe very farre both wayes obscure and very little in the beginning but soone after it getteth strength and waxeth greater by little and little and so by small degresse it commeth at the last to full perfection And then it is that Entelechia according to Aristotle which some call perfection and others a certaine continuall agitation As therefore this perfection seemeth to be finished by little and little from an imperfect and obscure preparation so the forme of euery thing which differeth nothing from perfection doth spring and arise from preparation and power For say they perfection is Forme and preparation power so that as at the last preparation is made perfection so power is changed into forme Theophrast Take heede Philadelph that you be not here ensnared and deceiued there are many false things which seeme true which couered with the cloake of truth seduce many through salshood into foule and shamefull errours for this which you haue now deliuered is a very subtill point that perfection is the forme of a thing which if you hold and allow you erre grosly Philadelph How then doe you thinke that there is difference betweene these Theophrast Very great difference euen as great as is the difference of kindes Perfection commeth from power and is by little and little consumated as is a young man to perfect age and the part goeth before the whole but the whole forme which succeedeth is on the sodaine whereof before there was not the least mite Perfection is a certaine patient nature as is power Forme is a nature efficient and the beginning of all motion Perfection is onely an accident but Forme is a simple and pure substance How then can it be that power by the degrees of encrease should passe into a sollide and expresse forme and so of a quality to be made a substance as if the genera suprema which haue no manner of conuenience with themselues and which
are more farre distant then are the things which are most contrarie should mutually passe one into another I denie not but that one qualitie may be changed into another and one substance into another because they haue one common matter but that in like sort qualitie may be changed into substance no thought of mans minde can comprehend and containe Philadelph Giue mee leaue to propound against you that which is holden by some concerning this point who say that the power which is in the seede is encreased by little and little vntill it come to full perfection Theophrast But I pray you tell mee by what acting force and prouoking power doe they say that encrease is giuen Philadelph Alexander answereth you that first there is infused into the seed a certaine beginning of motion which by a force taken from the begetting acteth vntill it come to some end and vntill by a continuing encrease it hath perfected it selfe and as it were entring the race ceaseth not vntill it come to the marke and end thereof vnlesse it be forcibly stayed in the course Theophrast You obiect and say that there is giuen to the begetting seede a certaine force and beginning of motion Doe they vnderstand that this beginning of motion is power Philadelph Yes verily they doe Theophrast And doe they say that the same beginning which is power doth acte continually and that it doth proceede from the first entred natures to the last consumated whereunto nothing can be added which we denie to be the highest and most perfect Philadelph They doe so Theophrast And doe they constantly affirme that this power is a quality Philadelph They affirme that Aristotle saith so Theophrast But no quality can at the first and by it selfe act but euery action belongeth to the forme that hath gotten substance which is a certaine efficient beginning Philadelph They denie not this Theophrast Seeing therefore they say that power is encreased by little and little vntill a perfect forme be made to what forme shall it first of all be ascribed Philadelph You must herein answere your selfe for I can goe no further Theophrast Wee say that in seede there are onely three things namely Matter Forme and Power Doth then that action of power leade at the first to the forme of seede Philadelph Whereto else should it leade Theophrast But that cannot be Philadelph What is the cause Theophrast Because whatsoeuer acteth acteth to this end that he may make the Patient obiect like himselfe neither doth the forme which is in the seede intend any other thing but that it may generate another seed out of it selfe Philadelph I knew this well enough before but the consequence of the matter hath enforced me not to denie it Now therefore I giue place and yet I affirme that the power which is in seede doth encrease it selfe by his owne force neither doth it desire any externall helpe For albeit the same power is thought to be a quality yet is it of a more high degree then are others for the which cause Aristotle hath called the same a Naturall power because as it is partaker of quality so also after a sort it is also partaker of Nature Wherefore in my opinion who so saith that the same can doe any thing of it selfe shall vtter no absurdity Theophrast These are wonderfull shifts be of what opinion you will onely know this If power doe act at the first and by it selfe when it encreaseth and finisheth it selfe it bringeth no other thing to passe but such another power as it is it selfe neither can it though it be encreased bring forme out of it selfe Out of the seed as out of the subiect is ingendered a liuing creature or a plant but there was neuer any in the ranke of the best Philosophers which held that powers should make forme or that a liuing creature is generated by the force of seede Philadelph And why so Theophrast That which is not yet but shall be hereafter is not now simply in being but how can that which is not be said to beget any other thing How then thinke you can it come to passe that the power which is in seede should procreate forme if as yet the same forme be not in it Or that the seede which is not yet that liuing creature should effect a liuing creature For if any thing be to be begotten out of these there must be some other thing put of necessitie which in act may obtaine forme and which may be the first efficient and chiefe cause of this procreation The which when Aristotle deepely considered hee decreed that there was a two-fold nature in the procreation of liuing creatures and of their off-spring One more imperfect which is made in seede and is not yet Another more perfect which being in act is simply such an effectrix as it is in that from whence the seede did spring The place is in the second booke concerning the procreation of liuing creatures where he putteth a difference betweene Nature and Art in these words Art is the beginning and the forme of that which is effected but yet in another The motion of Nature is in that which is effected proceeding from another nature which in act obtaineth the forme Therefore he holdeth that a nature is in the seede by which it is made and moued and the efficient nature in that which is in act This sentence Simplicius hath expounded more largely in these words or to this effect the nature and cause of euery motion maketh a subiect like it selfe and not another for as the nature of man maketh a man so the nature of seede can make nothing but seede For how shall that properly make a man which is in the seede which as yet is not the nature of man before such time as the man be made If the nature of the seede desireth to be changed and to haue a liuing creature perfected then properly the efficient and next cause is the paternall and maternall nature for the forme goeth before the act in the father and mother according to the which forme that which is in power is brought to act And by this meanes the nature of that which is generated if it be said to be efficient it is so efficient that the same is therewithall made And that nature hath properly the force of effecting which is such in act because nature is the procreatrix of that which is like it selfe Thus Philadelph you see that the force of the seed which we say is called power cannot be turned into the forme of a liuing creature how well so euer it fitteth it selfe or adorneth it selfe but there must be present a certaine thing as is such in act Philadelph These things which you haue now vttered seeme in my Iudgement most true But before you finish this matter it is conuenient that you explaine one thing which all Philosophers haue approued namely that the forme of euery thing is brought forth out of the power of the subiect
comprehend by any certaine reason Yet it is mans duty being set vpon the op●n Stage of this world to take a view of all the creatures of God to him knowne to search after such hidden causes therein soberly that he may magnifie the most omnipotent and wise Creatour of Nature CHAP. II. Philadelph YOu hauing spoken afore of the celestiall motions it resteth that you say somewhat concerning Water motion Therefore shew mee now I pray you the cause of the Seas motion wherein I haue observed a great diuersity somtime ebbing and somtime flowing one while calme and another while turbulent Theophrast The Sea in generall hath three degrees of motion the one calme and quiet continually as in that Archipelagus called Mare pacificum and Mare delzur which is seldome troubled with tempest that M. Anthonie Pigafetta sometime Knight of the Rhodes and one that did accompanie Magelanus in his first voyage and enterie into this Sea vpon the first discouery thereof testifieth that hee with his company sailed therein 4000. leagues in the space of three moneths and 20. daies In all which time being without sight of land they had no misfortune of winde nor of any other tempest Another degree of motion is in these parts of the Ocean called the Spanish Seas which doe moue and swell with surging waues like mountaines in such wise that the top Mast of one Ship going before another cannot be seene of the follower being as it were in a valley betweene two water hils In these Seas Ships cannot saile neere together least they fall foule one vpon another Otherwise in these Seas the passage is lesse perillous then in the narrow Seas for that the billowes waues of these goe whole and breake not the Sea in that channell being so deepe that a whole dry-fat of line may with a Lead be sunke therein without finding any bottome A third degree of motion is in that part of the Ocean commonly called the narrow Seas which coasteth Northward vpon England Scotland and Ireland and toward the South vpon Fraunce Flanders and so along the trade toward the the East from the West these Seas are sometime calme sometime by occasion of tempest very rough turbulent for that the passage of the Sea in that channell is interrupted with rockes and sands to the great hazard of them that saile therein Philadelph But for so much as the Sea is euer in motion either ebbing or flowing shew me I pray you the cause of such naturall and inter changeable motion which keepeth time and tide twise in 24. houres from East to West and from West backe againe to the East in the circumference of the whole Globe of the Earth Theophrast I finde in Writers such variety of opinion concerning this motion that I know not certainly what to determine to content you yet to giue you the best satisfaction I can herein you shall haue my conceite which neuerthelesse I submit to the iudgement of the more learned in Natures Schoole I suppose that there are two principall causes of the ebbing and flowing of the Sea The one supernaturall the other naturall The supernaturall and diuine cause is God who in the creation of all things by his spirit which he created as witnesseth Tertullian was the inspirer and animater of the whole vniuersall which Spirit serued the will of the Creatour as an Instrument to giue such motion to the Sea as wee see it hath appointing it bounds which it cannot passe without the will of the most mighty Commaunder Another naturall cause beside that created Spirit whereof Moses speaketh calling it the Spirit of God Iob expresseth by the similitude of Fire put vnder a Pot saying It is God which maketh the Sea to boyle like a Pot. Hereof I gather that there is a naturall fire of two sorts One in-set contained in the Marine Salt for the Sea generally is Salt euen to the North. And Salt as witnesseth Plinie yeeldeth the fatnesse of oyle and oyle by a certaine natiue heate is of property agreeing to fire And Iosephus Quersitanus and Christoferus Parisiensis affirme that Salt is both animall and vegetall hauing life in it as the radicall Balsam of Nature and to be the first mouing thing in the same which maketh to grow and to multiply and therfore serueth for the generation of all things so as with the Poets and ancient Philosophers it may be said that Venus the mother first beginner of all generation is begotten of the salt spume of the male For which cause Venus was called by the Greekes Aligines as affianced to the salt Sea The other naturall Fire the cause of the Sea flowing and ebbing is forraine or externall And this also is of two sorts One subterraneall which is as fire vnder a boyling pot For the earth hath more fire in it then hath water which fire lieth hidden in stones till it be beaten out with steele This subterraneall fire doth also cause the motion of the Sea being of substance liquide fluible moueable and altogether a passiue subiect to acting fire And when it beginneth to runne any way the precedent part therof by reason of the continuation cleauing together is thrust forward by the follower according to this sentence Vndam vnila sequitur one water followeth another Thus the Sea passeth to and againe from one Gulph to another For there are two Gulphes caused by two vast continents the one comprehending all Asia Africa and Europe and that other America Which two continents deuide the whole Sea into two parts of the world opposite one to the other East and West These two Gulphes rest at no time but like as Sea monsters doe they breath to and againe vntill the one haue engorged the other so full that it is compelled to pay vnto his lender backe againe that which is borrowed And thus the Sea hauing a naturall impotencie to stay it selfe in rest suffereth a certaine reciprocall motion into and out of it selfe without intermission which motion Aristotle calleth Talantosin The other externall heate causing the ebbing and flowing of the Sea is that which proceedeth from the Moone which Aueroes calleth the Lady and Mistresse of the Sea who by her beames and influences maketh the Sea hot and by the same heate doth beget exhalations in it wherewith when the Sea swelleth it floweth to the shoare and Sea bankes fulfilling the Hauens with Tide And the same exhalations being diminished and abated the Sea againe setteth in it selfe Therefore when by the Moones ascention and approaching to the South her light and heate is encreased then doth she make the waters to swell and flow But when she descendeth and enclineth to the Horizon her heate being by little and little diminished the waters doe fall and abate Thus all these causes working together the Sea doth moue in waight number and measure according to the ordinance of the Almighty Philadelph Lewes Vertomannus in his booke concerning Nauigation into East India affirmeth that the