publisht by Mr. Petit of the Temple and Mr. Attwood of grays-Inne being Gentlemen whom I do mention honoris causa and really they deserve to be honor'd that they will spare some time from the Mechanical part of their Callings which is to assist Clients with Counsel and to plead their Causes and which I acknowledg likewise to be honourable to study the true Interest of their Country and to show how ancient the Rights of the People in England are and that in a time when neither Profit nor Countenance can be hop'd for from so ingenious an undertaking But I beg pardon for the deviation Of the three branches of Soveraign Power which Politicians mention which are Enacting Laws Levying of Taxes and making War and Peace the two first of them are indisputably in the Parliament and when I say Parliament I ever intend with the King The last has been usually exercis'd by the Prince if he can do it with his own Money yet ' because even in that Case it may be ruinous to the Kingdom by exposing it to an Invasion many have affirmed that such a Power cannot be by the true and ancient free Government of England supposed to be Intrusted in the hands of one man And therefore we see in divers Kings Reigns the Parliament has been Consulted and their advice taken in those matters that have either concerned War or Leagues And that if it has been omitted Addresses have been made to the king by Parliaments either to make war or peace according to what they thought profitable to the publick So that I will not determine whether that power which draws such consequences after it be by the genuine sence of our Laws in the Prince or no although I know of no Statute or written Record which makes it otherwise That which is undoubtedly the Kings Right or prerogative is to Call and Dissolve Parliaments to preside in them to approve of all Acts made by them and to put in Execution as Supream or Soveraign Magistrate in the Intervals of Parliaments and during their Sitting all Laws made by them as also the Common Law for which Cause he has the nomination of all Inferiour Officers and Ministers under him excepting such as by Law or Charter are eligible otherwise and the Power of the Sword to force Obedience to the Judgements given both in Criminal and Civil Causes Doct. Sir You have made us a very absolute Prince what have we left us if the King have all this Power what do our Liberties or Rights signifie whenever he pleases Eng. Gent. This Objection Doctor makes good what I said before that your skill did not terminate in the body natural but extend to the Politick for a more pertinent Interrogatory could never have been made by Plato or Aristotle In answer to which you may please to understand That when these Constitutions were first made our Ancestors were a plain-hearted well-meaning People without Court-reserves or tricks who having made choice of this sort of Government and having Power enough in their hands to make it take place did not foresee or imagine that any thoughts of Invading their Rights could enter into the Princes Head nor do I read that it ever did till the Norman Line came to Reign which coming in by Treaty it was obvious there was no Conquest made upon any but Harold in whose stead William the First came and would claim no more after his Victory than what Harold enjoy'd excepting that he might confiscate as he did those great men who took part with the wrong Title and French-men were put into their Estates which though it made in this Kingdom a mixture between Normans and Saxons yet produced no Change or Innovation in the Government the Norman Peers â—â—ing as tenacious of their Liberties and as active in the recovery of them to the full as the Saxon Families were Soon after the death of William and possibly in his time there began some Invasions upon the Rights of the Kingdom 〈…〉 gat Grievances and afterwards 〈…〉 plants and Discontents which grew to that height that the Peers were fain to use their Power that is Arm their Vassals to defend the Government whilest the Princes of that Age first King Iohn and then Henry the Third got Force together The Barons call'd in Lewis the Dauphin whilst the King would have given away the Kingdom to the Sarazens as he did to the Pope and armed their own Creatures so that a bloody War ensued for almost forty years off and on as may be read in our History The success was that the Barons or Peers obtained in the close two Charters or Laws for the ascertaining their Rights by which neither their Lives Liberties or Estates could ever be in danger any more from any Arbitrary Power in the Prince and so the good Government of England which was before this time like the Law of Nature onely written in the hearts of Men came to be exprest in Parchment and remain a Record in Writing though these Charters gave us no more than what was our own before After these Charters were made there could not chuse but happen some encroachment upon them but so long as the Peers kept their greatness there was no breaches but what were immediately made up in Parliament which when-ever they assembled did in the first place confirm the Charters and made very often Interpretations upon them for the benefit of the People witness the Statute de Tallagio non concedendo and many others But to come nearer the giving the Doctor an answer you may please to understand that not long after the framing of these forementioned Charters there did arise a Grievance not foreseen or provided for by them and it was such an one that had beaten down the Government at once if it had not been Redressed in an Orderly way This was the Intermission of Parliaments which could not be called but by the Prince and he not doing of it they ceast to be Assembled for some years if this had not been speedily remedied the Barons must have put on their Armour again for who can Imagine that such brisk Assertors of their Rights could have acquiesced in an Omission that ruin'd the Foundation of the Government which consisting of King Lords and Commons and having at that time Marched near Five hundred years upon three Leggs must then have gone on hopping upon one which could it have gone forward as was impossible whilest Property continued where it was yet would have rid but a little way Nor can it be wonder'd at that our great Men made no provision against this Grievance in their Charters because it was impossible for them to imagine that their Prince who had so good a share in this Government should go about to destroy it and to take that burden upon himself which by our Constitution was undeniably to be divided between him and his Subjects And therefore divers of the great Men of those times speaking with that
in the Property of the Peers and Church whose Lands five parts of six have been alienated and mostly is come into the same hands with those of the King and Peers have inherited likewise according to the course of nature their Power But being kept from it by the established Government which not being changed by any lawfull Acts of State remains still in being formally whereas virtually it is abolished so that for want of outward Orders and Provisions the people are kept from the Exercise of that Power which is faln to them by the Law of Nature and those who cannot by that Law pretend to the share they had do yet enjoy it by vertue of that Right which is now ceased as having been but the natural Effect of a Cause that is no longer in being and you know sublata causa tâ—llitur I cannot say that the greater part of the people do know this their condition but they find very plainly that they want something which they ought to have and this makes them lay often the blame of their unsetledness upon wrong causes but however are altogether unquiet and restless in the Intervals of Parliament and when the King pleases to assemble one spend all their time in Complaints of the Inexecution of the Law of the multiplication of an Infinity of Grievances of Mis-spending the Publick Monies of the danger our Religion is in by practices to undermine it and the State by endeavours to bring in Arbitrary Power and in questioning great Officers of State as the Causers and Promoters of all these Abuses in so much that every Parliament seems a perfect State of War wherein the Commons are tugging and contending for their Right very justly and very honourably yet without coming to a Point So that the Court sends them packing and governs still worse and worse in the Vacancies being necessitated thereunto by their despair of doing any good in Parliament and therefore are forced to use horrid shifts to subsist without it and to keep it off without ever considering that if these Counsellers understood their Trade they might bring the Prince and People to such an Agreement in Parliament as might repair the broken and shipwrack'd Government of England and in this secure the Peace Quiet and Prosperity of the People the Greatness and Happiness of the King and be themselves not only out of present danger which no other course can exempt them from but be Renowned to all Posterity Noble Ven. I beseech you Sir how comes it to pass that neither the King nor any of his Counsellors could ever come to find out the truth of what you discourse for I am fully convinced it is as you say Eng. Gent. I cannot resolve you that but this is certain they have never endeavoured a Cure though possibly they might know the Disease as fearing that though the Effects of a Remedy would be as was said very advantagious both to King and People and to themselves yet possibly such a Reformation might not consist with the Merchandize they make of the Princes Favour nor with such Bribes Gratuities and Fees as they usually take for the dispatch of all Matters before them And therefore our Counsellors have been so far from suggesting any such thing to their Master that they have opposed and quashed all Attempts of that kind as they did the worthy Proposals made by certain Members of that Parliament in the beginning of King Iames's Reign which is yet called the Undertaking Parliament These Gentlemen considering what we have been discoursing of viz. That our old Government is at an end had framed certain Heads which if they had been proposed by that Parliament to the King and by him consented to would in their Opinion have healed the Breach and that if the King would perform his part that House of Commons would undertake for the Obedience of the People They did believe that if this should have been moved in Parliament before the King was acquainted with it it would prove Abortive and therefore sent three of their number to his Majesty Sir Iames a Croft Grandfather or Father to the present Bishop of Hereford Thomas Harley who was Ancestor to the Honourable Family of that Name is Herefordshire and Sir Henry Nevill who had been Ambassador from Queen Elizabeth to the French King These were to open the matter at large to the King and to procure his leave that it might be proposed in Parliament which after a very long Audience and Debate that wise Prince consented to with a promise of Secresie in the mean time which they humbly begged of His Majesty However this took Vent and the Earl of Northampton of the House of Howard who ruled the Rost in that time having knowledg of it engaged Sir R. Weston afterwards Lord Treasurer and Earl of Portland to impeach these Undertakers in Parliament before they could move their matters which he did the very same day accompanying his Charge which was endeavouring to alter the established Government of England with so eloquent an Invective that if one of them had not risen and made the House acquainted with the whole Series of the Affair they must have been in danger of being impeached by the Commons but however it broke their designe which was all that Northampton and Weston desired and prevented Posterity from knowing any of the Particulars of this Reformation for nothing being moved nothing could remain upon the Journal So that you see our Predecessors were not ignorant altogether of our condition though the Troubles which have befallen this poor Kingdom since have made it much more apparent for since the Determination of that Parliament there has not been one called either in that King's Reign or his Son 's or since that hath not been dissolved abruptly whilst the main businesses and those of most concern to the publick were depending and undecided And although there hath happened in this Interim a bloody War which in the Close of it changed the whole Order and Foundation of the Polity of England and that it hath pleased God to restore it again by his Majesty's happy Return so that the old Government is alive again yet it is very visible that its deadly Wound is not healed but that we are to this day tugging with the same difficulties managing the same Debates in Parliament and giving the same disgusts to the Court and hopes to the Country which our Ancestors did before the Year 1640. whilst the King hath been forced to apply the same Remedy of Dissolution to his two first Parliaments that his Father used to his four first and King Iames to his three last contrary to his own visible Interest and that of his people and this for want of having Counsellors about him of Abilities and Integrity enough to discover to him the Disease of his Government and the Remedy which I hope when we meet to Morrow Morning you will come prepared to enquire into for the Doctor says he will
admired if not adored by the people and considering too that all the power they leave him will serve but to enable him to defend us the better from Popery and Arbitrary power for which latter Monarchy was first Instituted Thus we may exercise during a Parliament or two love-tricks between the Prince and his people and imitate the hony-moon that continued for about two years after his Majesties Restauration till the ill management of affairs and the new grevances that shall arise which will be sure never to fail till our true cure be effected notwithstanding the care of the new King and his Councellors shall awaken the discontents of the people and then they will curse the time in which they made this election of a Prince and the great men for not hindring them Then men will be reckoning up the discontents of the Peers sometime after they had made a rash choice of H. the 7th in the field who had then no title when they saw how he made use of the power they gave him to lessen their greatness and to fortifie himself upon their ruins when it comes to this and that the Governing party comes to be but a little faction the people who never know the true cause of their distemper will be looking out abroad who has the Lawful title if the next Heir be not in the meantime with an Army of English and Strangers in the field here as is most likely and look upon the Prince of Orange or the next of kin as their future Saviour in case the Duke be dead in the mean time and so the cause of all their distrust taken away thus most men not only discontented persons but the people in general lookt upon his Majesty that now is as their future deliverer during our late distractions when his condition was so weak that he had scarce wherewithall to subsist and his enemies powerful at home and victorious abroad which will not be I fear our case I Prophesy then because you will have me use this word that if Nobles or people make any such unfortunate choice as this during the distractions we may be in upon his Majesties death we shall not only miss our cure or have it deferred till another Government make it but remain in the confusion we now suffer under and besides that shall be sure to feel first or last the calamity of a Civil and Foreign War and in the mean time to be in perpetual fear of it and suffer all the burden and charge which is necessary to provide for it besides all the other ill consequences of a standing Army To conclude I assure you in the Faith of a Christian that I have made this discourse solely and singly out of zeal and affection to the Interest of my Countrey and not at all with the least intention to favour or promote the Cause or Interest of the D. of York or to disparage the Duke of Monmouth from whom I never received the least unkindness nor ever had the honour to be in his Company and to whom I shall ever pay respect suitable to his high Birth and Merit Noble Ven. Well Sir your Reasoning in this point has extreamly satisfied me and the Doctor I suppose was so before as he averred therefore pray let us go on where we left Eng. Gent. I cannot take so much upon me as to be Dictator in the Method of our Cure since either of you is a thousand times better qualified for such an Office and therefore shall henceforth desire to be an Auditor Doct. Pray Sir let us not spend time in Compliments but be pleased to proceed in this business and we doubt not but as you have hitherto wonderfully delighted us so you will gratifie us in concluding it Eng. Gent. I see I must obey you but pray help me and tell me in the first place whether you do not both believe that as the causa causarum of all our Distractions is as has been proved the breach of our Government so that the immediate Causes are two First The great distrust on both sides between the King and his People and Parliament the first fearing that his Power will be so lessened by degrees that at length it will not be able to keep the Crown upon his head And the latter seeing all things in disorder and that the Laws are not executed which is the second of the two Causes fear the King intends to change the Government and be Arbitrary Noble Ven. I am a Stranger but though I never reflected so much upon the Original Cause as I have done since I heard you discourse of it yet I ever thought that those two were the Causes of the Unquietness of this Kingdom I mean the Jealousie between the King and his People and the Inexecution of the great Laws of Calling Parliaments Annually and letting them sit to dispatch their Affairs I understand this in the time of His Majesties Grand-Father and Father more than in His own Reign Eng. Gent. Then whoever can absolutely lay these two Causes asleep for ever will arrive to a perfect Cure which I conceive no way of doing but that the King have a great deal more Power or a great deal less And you know that what goes out of the King must go into the People and so vice versa Insomuch that the People must have a great deal more Power or a great deal less Now it is no question but either of these two would rather increase their Power than diminish it so that if this cannot be made up by the Wisdom of this Age we may see in the next that both the King will endeavour to be altogether without a Parliament and the Parliament to be without a King Doct. I begin to smell that you would be nibbling at the pretence which some had before his Majesties Restauration of a Commonwealth or Democracy Eng. Gent. No I abhor the thoughts of wishing much less endeavouring any such thing during these Circumstances we are now in That is under Oaths of Obedience to a Lawful King And truly if any Themistocles should make to me such a Proposal I should give the same Judgment concerning it that Aristides did in such a Case The Story is short After the War between the Greeks and the Persians was ended and Xerxes driven out of Greece the whole Fleet of the Grecian Confederates except that of Athens which was gone home lay in a great Arsenal such as were then in use upon the Coast of Attica during their abode there Themistocles harrangues one day the People of Athens as was then the Custome and tells them that he had a design in his head which would be of Infinite profit and advantage to the Commonwealth But that it could not be executed without the Order and Authority of them and that it did likewise require secresie and if it were declared there in the Market place where Strangers as well as Citizens might be present it could
Impositions upon the People this is reserved to the Parliament it self and the Execution of all Laws to the Judges and Magistrates And I can think of no other Affairs of State than these Doct. Do you intend that the Council for chusing Officers shall Elect them of the King's Houshold that is his Menial Servants Eng. Gent. No that were unreasonable except any of them have any Jurisdiction in the Kingdom or any place or preheminence in Parliament annexed to such Office but in these things which concern the powers and Jurisdictions of these several Councils wherein la guardia della laberta as Machiavil calls it is now to be placed I shall not persume to say any thing but assure your self if ever it come to that it will be very well digested in Parliament they being very good at contriving such Matters and making them practicable as well as at performing all other Matters that concern the Interest and greatness of the Kingdom Doct. I have thought that the Ephores of Sparta were an admirable Magistracy not only for the Interest of the People but likewise for the preservation of the authority of the Kings and of their lives too for Plutarch observes that the Cities of Mesene and Argos had the same Government with Lacedemon and yet for want of erecting such an Authority as was in the Ephores they were not only perpetually in broils amongst themselves and for that reason ever beaten by their Enemies whereas the Spartans were always victorious but even their Kings were the most miserable of Men being often call'd in question Judicially and so lost their Lives and many of them murdered by Insurrections of the People And at last in both these Cities the Kings were driven out their Families extirpated the Territory new divided and the Government turn'd into a Democracy And I ever thought that this expedient you propose for I have heard you discourse of it often before now would prove a more safe and a more noble reformation than the Institution of the Ephores was and that a Prince who is a lover of his Country who is Gracious Wise and Just such a one as it has pleased God to send us at this time shall be ten times more absolute when this Regulation is made than ever he was or could be before and that whatsoever he proposes in any of these Councils will be received as a Law nay as an Oracle And on the other side ill and weak Princes shall have no possibility of corrupting Men or doing either themselves or their People any kind of harm or mischief But have you done now Eng. Gent. No Sir when this Provision is made for the Execution of the Laws which I think very effectual not to say Infallible although it is not to be doubted but that there will be from time to time many excellent Laws Enacted yet two I would have passed immediately the one concerning the whole Regulation of the Elections to Parliament which we need very much and no doubt but it will be well done that part of it which is necessary to go hand in hand with our Settlement and which indeed must be part of it is that a Parliament be Elected every year at a certain day and that without any Writ or Summons the People Meeting of course at the time appointed in the usual place as they do in Parishes at the Church-House to chuse Officers and that the Sheriffs be there ready to preside and to certifie the Election And that the Parliament so Chosen shall Meet at the time appointed and Sit and Adjuorn as their business is more or less urgent But still setting yet a time for their coming together again but if there shall be a necessity by reason of Invasion or some other Cause for their Assembling sooner then the King to Call the Councellors of these Four Councels all together and with the consent of the major part of them intimate their Meeting sooner but when the day day comes for the Annual Meeting of Another Parliament they must be understood to be Dissolved in Law without any other Ceremony and the new one to take their place Doct. I would have this considered too and provided for That no Election should be made of any person who had not the majority of the Electors present to Vote for him so the Writ orders it and so Reason dictates for else how can he be said to represent the County if not a fifth part have consented to his choice as happens sometimes and may do oftener for where seven or eight stand for one vacant place as I have know in our last Long Parliament where the Votes being set in Columns he who has had most Votes has not exceeded four hundred of above two thousand who were present Noble Ven. This is a strange way I thought you had put every Man by himself as we do in our Government and as I understood they do in the House of Commons when there is any nomination and then if he has not the major part he is rejected Eng. Gent. This is very Material and indeed Essential but I make no doubt but if this Project should come in play in Parliament this and all other particulars which would be both needless and tedious to discourse of here will be well and effectually provided for The next Act I would have passed should be concerning the House of Peers that as I take it for granted that there will be a Clause in the Bill concerning Elections that no new Boroughs shall be enabled to send Members to Parliament except they shall be capacitated thereunto by an Act so it being of the same necessity as to the Liberty of Parliament that the Peers who do and must enjoy both a Negative and Deliberative Voice in all Parliamentary Transactions except what concern Levying of Money Originally be exempted from depending absolutely upon the Prince and that therefore it be declared by Act for the future that no Peer shall be made but by Act of Parliament and then that it be Hereditary in his Male Line Noble Ven. I am not yet fully satisfied how you can order your Matters concerning this House of Peers nor do I see how the Contests between the House of Commons and them can be so laid asleep but that they will arise again Besides the House of Commons must necessarily be extreamly concerned to find the House of Peers which consists of private persons though very great and honourable ones in an Instant dash all that they have been so long hammering for the good of all the People of England whom they represent were it not better now you are upon so great alterations to make an Annual Elective Senate or at least one wherein the Members should be but for Life and not Hereditary Eng. Gent. By no means Sir the less change the better and in this Case the Metaphysical Maxime is more true than in any viz. Entia non sunt multiplicanda sine necessitate for
and a Recruit of an equal number come in And in three Years they shall be all new and no Person to come into that Council or any other of the four till he have kept out of any of them full three Years being as long as he was in And this I learnt from your Quarantia's at Venice and the Use is excellent for being in such a Circulation and sure to have their intervals of Power they will neither grow so insolent as to brave their King nor will the Prince have any occasion to corrupt them although he had the means to do it which in this new Model he cannot have These Men in their several Councils should have no other instructions but to dispose of all things and act in their several Charges for the Interest and Glory of England and shall be Answerable to Parliament from time to time for any malicious or advised Misdemeanor only that Council which manages the Publick Revenue shall besides a very copious and Honourable Revenue which shall be left to His Majesty's disposal for his own Entertainment as belongs to the Splendor and Majesty of the Government have Instructions to serve His Majesty if he pleases to command them and not otherwise in the regulating and ordering his Oeconomy and Houshold and if they shall see it necessary for extraordinary Occasions of treating Foreign Princes and Ambassadors or Presenting them and the like Ostentation of Greatness to consent with His Majesty moderately to charge the Revenue to that end I verily believe that this Expedient is much more effectual than either the Iustitia of Aragon was or the Ephores of Sparta Who being to check the King almost in every thing without having any share in his Councils or understanding them could not chuse but make a sullen posture of Affairs whereas these both seem and really are the King's Ministers only obliged by Parliament to act faithfully and honestly to which even without that all other Councellors are bound by Oath As for the other Council now called the Privy Council the King may still please to continue to nominate them at his pleasure so they act nothing in any of the Matters properly within the Jurisdiction of these four Councils but meddle with the Affairs of Merchants Plantations Charters and other Matters to which the Regal Power extendeth And provided that His Majesty call none of the Persons employed in these other four Councils during their being so nor that this Council do any way intermeddle with any Affairs Criminal or Civil which are to be decided by Law and do belong to the Jurisdictions of other Courts or Magistrates they being no established Judicatory or Congregation which either our Government or Laws do take notice of as was said before but Persons congregated by the King as his Friends and faithful Subjects to give him their Opinion in the Execution of his Regal Office As for Example the King does exercise at this time a Negative Voice as to Bills presented to him by the Parliament which he claims by Right no Man ever said that the Privy Council had a Negative Voice yet former Kings did not only as their Advice as to the passing or not passing of such Bills but often decided the Matter by their Votes which although it be a high Presumption in them when they venture to give him Council contrary to what is given him by his greatest Council yet never any of them have been questioned for it being looked upon as private Men who speak according to the best of their Cunning and such as have no publick Capacity at all But if this be not so and that this Council have some Foundation in Law and some publick Capacity I wish in this new Settlement it may be made otherwise and that His Majesty please to take their Counsel in private but summon no Persons to appear before them much less give them Authority to send for in Custody or Imprison any Subject which may as well be done by the Judges and Magistrates who if Secrecy be required may as well be Sworn to Secrecy as these Gentlemen and I believe can keep Counsel as well and give it too Nob. Ven. But would you have none to manage State-Affairs none Imprisoned for secret Conspiracies and kept till they can be fully discovered you have made an Act here lately about Imprisonments that every Person shall have his Habeas Corpus I think you call it so that no Man for what occasion soever can lie in Prison above a Night but the Cause must be revealed though there be great cause for the concealing it Eng. Gent. This Act you mention and a great many more which we have to the same purpose that is against Illegal Imprisonments shews that for a long time the Power over Men's Persons has been exercised under His Majesty by such as were very likely rather to employ it ill than well that is would rather Imprison ten Men for Honourable Actions such as standing for the People's Rights in Parliament refusing to pay Illegal Taxes and the like than one for projecting and inventing Illegal Monopolies or any other kind of oppressing the People This made first Magna Charta then the Petition of Right and divers other Acts besides this last take that Power quite away and make the Law and the Judges the only Disposers of the Liberties of our Persons And it may be when the Parliament shall see the Fruit of this Alteration we are now discoursing of and that State-Affairs are in better hands they may think fit to provide that a Return or Warrant of Imprisonment from one of these Four Councils which I suppose will have a Power of Commitment given them as to Persons appearing Delinquents before them wherein it shall be expressed That if the Publick is like to suffer or be defrauded if the Matter be immediately divulged I say in this Case the Parliament may please to make it Lawful for the Judge to delay the Bailing of him for some small time because it is not to be judged that these Councellours so chosen and so instructed and to continue so small a time will use this Power ill especially being accountable for any abusing of it to the next Parliament And I suppose the Parliament amongst other Provisions in this behalf will require that there shall be a Register kept of all the Votes of these several Councils with the names as well of those who consented as of such who dissented And as to the former part of your Question whether I would have none to manage State Affairs I think there are very few State Affair that do not concern either Peace and War and Treaties abroad the management of the Arms Militia and posse Comitatus at home the management of all the Publick Moneys and the Election of all Officers whatsoever the other parts of State Affairs which are Making and Repealing of Laws punishing high Crimes against the State with Levying and Proportioning all manner of