encreased But these thyngs are not de substantia Sacramenti and therfore not sufficient to proue that the Supper is not sincerely ministred M. Bucer likewyse in his censure vpon the booke of Cōmon prayers is of the same iudgement his wordes be these The thirde chapter M. Bucers opinion is of the substance forme and breaking of bread vvhiche all doe vvell inough agree vvith the institution of Christe vvhome it is manifest to haue vsed vnleuened breade and easy to be broken for hee brake it and gaue to his disciples peeces of the breade broken Touching the forme and figure vvhether it were rounde or square there is nothyng declared of the Euangelistes And bicause this breade is vsed onely for a signe and not for corporall nourishemente I see not vvhat can be reprehended in this description of the breade vvhiche is in this booke excepte some vvoulde peraduenture haue it thicker that it maye the more fully represente the forme of true breade T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. I haue spoken of this bread before in generall and if M. Doctor did not disagree with himselfe we are here well agreed For first he fay the it skilleth not what bread we haue 〈◊〉 by and by he sayth that he wisheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice likewise assigneth which is to auoyd superstition and it is certaynly knowen by experience that in diuers places the ignorant people that haue bin misseled in poperie haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kneeled vnto it and held vp their hands whilest the minister hathe giuen it not those only whiche haue receiued it but those whiche haue bin in the Churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I know and haue seene with my eyes Another reason is alleadged by M. Bucer whiche is that there being some thicker substance of bread and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consideration of the mind which is conneyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the frute of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther (*) Or else you speake of a matter you know not Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto him or be corrupted or else were not euen in his owne time here thought good substantiall and sufficient when there is some cause by act of Parliament afterward found I meane in the second booke of King Edward to mislike water cakes and to change them into common bread Howsoeuer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thing to talke of a water cake in the vse of y e supper in King Edwards dais before they were iustly abolished and another thing now being reuoked after they were renioued Io. Whitgifte I am constant and agrée with my selfe in the truth I thanke God for it I knowe the kind of bread to be indifferents my priuate iudgemēt I haue in my Answer vttered But in such matters I submit my selfe to the determination of the Church to whome God doth giue his spirit most aboundantly so long as it followeth and embraceth the truth The daunger that you speake of is in the forme and figure of the bread not in the other qualities nor in the substance and therfore not perteyning to any thing that I haue spoken For the question is of leauened or vnleauened breade not of roundnesse or squarenesse c. Although the forme and figure also is indifferente and in the power of the Churche to appoynt wherfore there may no schisme or diuision in the Churche be made for it M. Bucers censures were vpon the firste booke in King Edwards time not vppon Bucers censure vpon the first booke 〈◊〉 King Edwards days the second therefore you are deceiued The Church hath authoritie in things indifferent to abolish or reuoke as occasion serueth and therefore that circumstance is not worthe the noting Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 1. Besides that we be called by the example of our sa ionce Christ to vse the supper vsual and common bread for what time our Sauioure Christ celebrated his supper there was no other bread to be gotten but vnleauened bread there being astraight charge giuen by the law that there should be then no leauened bread and it is not to be doubted but that if there had in then when he celebrated his supper as at other times nothing but leauened bread he would not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bin made for that purpose of celebrating his supper Io. Whitgifte It was not vsuall bread but properly appoynted for the celebrating of the passouer Christ vsed vnleuened bread and then to be vsed and not otherwise vsually and commonly for their vsuall and common bread was leauened wherefore this maketh against you and if you will haue the commaundements that appertethe to the eating of the passouer perpetuall Pa. 130. Sect. 2 and to be referred to the celebrating of the Lords supper as by that precept 2. Chro. 35. before alleadged it seemeth you would then must we make it a matter of necessitie to haue vnleauened bread but as that is 〈◊〉 so is this also for the kind of bread is indifferent although as M. Bucer sayth it commeth nearer to the institution The kind of bread of itself indifferent of Christe to vse vnle uened bread b cause he did celebrate his supper with it if there wer not other circumstances and reasons to moue the Church sometimes to vse the contrary Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. But this is a grosse ouersight of M. Doctor both 〈◊〉 this section and that whiche goeth 〈◊〉 fore that he hath not learned to make a difference betwene that which is not ncerely done that which is not at al done For in the former 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the Admonition bicause they conclude that for as much as there is no examination therefore it is not 〈◊〉 and sincerely ministred For saythe he the examination of the communicantes is not of the Iubstaunce of the sacrament and in this section he saith that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacramēt whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therefore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred but he ought to haue vnderstanded that if eyther the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it which is the institution which things are only substantiall parts were wanting that then there should haue bin no sacrament ministred at all but they being reteyned and yet other things vsed which are not conuenient the sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popish baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spittle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumperie it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely and another thing to minister so that that which is of
to no other as the diligent reader may easily perceiue But howsoeuer the words of Cyprian sound certayne it is that neyther that in the. 20. of Numeri nor this in the. 1. of the Acts can proue any election made by the people Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Lin. 1. No certayne forme of electing ministers commaunded in the scriptures But I saye that in the whole scripture there is no commaundement that it should so be nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or generall rule but that it may be altered as time and occasion serueth For in suche matters not commaunded or prohibited in scripture touching ceremonies discipline and gouernmente the Churche hathe authoritie from time to time to appointe that whiche is most conuenient for the presente state as I haue before declared T. C. Page 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you saye these examples are no generall rules (*) It will fal out that you haue neyther examples of all Apostles nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times Examples of all the Apostles in all Churches and in all purer times vncontrolled and vnretracted either by any the rimitiue and purer Churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stande If it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not always safe to follow But what if there be commaundement also ▪ In the (a) You are driu to a streight when you are glad to serch a mandatum out of the ceremoniall law eight of the booke of numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites whiche preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be broughte before the Lord and before the people the people should lay their handes vpon the Leuits heads whiche what other thinge is it than to declare their liking of them and by that ceremonie to consecrate them and set them apart for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands I graunt you but so he speaketh bycause the approbation was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of hands But me thinketh I here your old answer that this perteyneth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law But take heede what you say for if you will admitte neyther the generall examples of the new testament nor the commaundements and examples of the old take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoyle vs of the chiefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs (b) Not so but you seeme to bring vs to plai udaisme to playne Catabaptistrie which you say you are so afraid of For to proue the baptisme of children and yong infants what stronger hold haue we than that God commaunded in the old Testament that they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the new Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families where by al likelyhoode there were children Now we say that there is this commaundement in the old Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and throughout why shoulde it not then be necessarie in this as well as in the other Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to proue 〈◊〉 generall commaundement 6. of the Acts the Apostles commaund that the Church shoulde seeke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certayne Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessary as namely the sacramentes And as for discipline and gouernmente I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the Gospell if to haue excommunication be to haue discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernmente of the Church Io. Whitgifte You do still petere principium and build vpon a false grounde for I denie that you haue examples either of all or of any of the Apostles or that this kind of election hath bin in all Churches in al purer times c. and albeit for the proofe of this sufficiēt is said before yet will I adde something now also All the places of scriptures that you haue The diuersitie of electiōs in the Apostles time hither to alleadged are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. whiche places neither agrée in persons that were to be chosen nor in the manner and forme of choosing For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle the. 6. of Deacons the. 14. of Byshops and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were ioyned with Paule for the collecting and distributing of Almes Al men do graunt that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediatly from God and therefore dothe differ from all other elections of Pastors Deacons c. But to let thys passe I pray you consider the diuers manner and forme vsed in all these places In the firste of the Acts Péeter made an exhortation to the disciples he appoynted out of what company the newe Apostle shoulde be taken the Apostles presented two after prayers made lots were giuen foorth and the Apostle was chosen by lot and not by voice but immediatly taken and reputed with the eleuen Apostles In the. 6. of the Acts the twelue Apostles willed the whole multitude to looke out seuen men of honest report c. to be Deacons and the whole multitude did choose seuen and presented them to the Apostles and the Apostles prayed layed theyr hands on them In the. 14. of the Acts Paule and Barnabas ordeyned ministers in euery Churche with praying and fasting In the seconde Corinth eyghte At Paules request the Churches appoynte certayne to bée collectours for the poore Saynctes with hym whyche of all these examples woulde you followe will you name them to the people or shall the people name them too you Will you haue two put vp togyther and one of them chosen by lotte Or will you haue the whole people for to choose and you to lay on handes or will you only haue the Bishops to choose to bée short will you pray only at the election or will you both pray and fast or haue you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples and so to make one rule where vnto all Churches at all times must of necessitie be bound I told you before that M. Caluine saith plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts no certaine rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers and M. Beza li. confess ca. 5. is as plaine that there can be no certaine rule gathered out of the Beza 6. of the Acts or out of that in the first his words be these In the election of Matthias lottes were cast but for a peculiar cause
bycause the Churche was then vnder Persecution doth both diminishe increase y e number of professors the Crosse therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell for sodde I say bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors doe increase rather than diminishe in the time of persecution yet is it not so with hypocrites and dissemblers who would séeme to professe the Gospell and whom also we must count professors bycause we sée not their hartes This is manifest by this example In the time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie how many was there in London that séemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same but when the time of persecution came vnder Quéens Marie what became of that number howe fewe was there then in comparison doe you not thinke that if God should send a triall there would be founde in that citie many false brethren Moreouer in the time of prosperitie true Christians may without daunger shew themselues and remaine in their cities though the number be neuer so great but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places We may learne in the. 8. of the Actes that the Churche wholy remayned at Ierusalem vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer and that then they were dispersed shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution were few in comparison True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged yet in the meane time was the number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished Thus then you maye vnderstande if you please that this is a good reason to say the Church was then in persecution and therefore very few incomparison that embraced the Gospell both in the respect of the visible Church generally and also in respect of the same Churche particularly in euery ceuntrey or citie And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche but that séede must haue time to grow in and I speake of the externall professors of the Gospell That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the kéeping together and often méeting of such Churches as be persecuted confirmeth my meaning for I saye they kept together in the time of persecution and you affirme the same wherevpon I also conclude that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution is a cause of better knowing one another theirs is or rather more frequent yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with another or to consider one another or to knowe one another as they haue for they then admitte none into their societie at their méetings but such as are knowen to be brethren and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall And I thinke that those which haue béen exercised eyther in Fraunce or elsewhere in any suche time of persecutiō know this to be true that they know none so throughly or are acquainted with none so intirely as with such who haue béen with them in the time of persecution You would fayne if you coulde confute a knowne truth and a manifest thing for who would denie but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution muste of necessitie be knowne among themselues and beste iudge who is fittest among them for any function Chap. 6. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 3. Secondly in the Apostles time all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrits c. were vertuous and godly and suche as dyd sincerely professe the worde and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed to them nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites dissemblers drunkardes whoremongers c. so that if anye election were committed to them they woulde be sure to take one lyke to themselues T. C. Page 34. Sect. I. To your second difference I answere that in deede there be Hypocrites in our Churches now and so were there then but more nowe than then I graunt you that also but there is no greate daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or Bishop for that in such open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so sincerely so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they doe is in closer and secreter matters But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware how euill successe the preaching of the Gospell hath had here for want of discipline and good Ecclesiasticall gouernmenie you bewraye a greate ignorance For althoughe a A daungerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes there be Hypocrites which beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednesse is onely knowne to God and therefore can not be discouered by men yet in * the churches of Christ there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least which are knowne For eyther vpon Admonition of the Churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte off by excommunication if they continue stubberne in their synnes and so are none of the Churche and therefore haue nothing to doe in the election of the Minister of the Churche And me thinketh you shoulde not haue bene ignorant of this that although there be tares in the floure of the Church which are lyke the wheate and therefore being grounde easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loafe yet there are no acornes which are bread for swine And although there be goat s amongst the flocke of the Churche bycause they haue some likelyhoode with the sheepe feedyng as Mat. 25. they doe giuing milke as they doe yet in the Churche of Christ there are no swine nor hogges it pertaineth to God onely to seuer the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the Churches can discerne betwene wheate and acornes betwene swine and sheepe Io. Whitgifte There be not onely Hypocrites which deale syncerely in nothing no not in publyke actions but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life who woulde no doubte be as corrupt in elections if they might haue to doe therein as they are in other matters In saying that the Church is now ful of Hypocrites drunkards whoremongers Drunkards whoremōgers in the visible churche c. I derogate no more from the good successe that the preaching of the Gospell hath had than the lyke or greater faultes dyd from the same in the Churche of Corinthe and Galatia The Churche is a net that gathereth together of all kinde of fyshe Mat. 13. it is a fielde wherein the deuill soweth tares as fast as the
by M. Doctor that they are but for a time Io. Whitgifte If you meane Prophetes in the respecte of the gifte of telling thinges to come Act. 11. suche as Agabus was then be they temporall but yet ordinarie for the tyme wherin Prophetes in some respecte ordinary they were But if you meane Prophets in respecte of their dexteritie and readinesse in expounding the Scriptures suche as Barnabas was and Simon Lucius Act. 13. c. and Saule Likewyse suche as Iudas and Silas Actes 15. and suche as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paule speaketh of 1. Corinth 14. I sée no cause why eyther the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary or the â—ffice and gifte temporall excepte you haue a libertie to make temporall and perpetuall ordinarie and extraordinarie what you please But seeing you woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture I pray you proue this that you haue sayde eyther of the Aposâ—les Euangelisâ—s or Prophetes by the Scripture séeing you teache that of them which seemeth to be contrary vnto the Scripture Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinarie and continuall functions of the Churche are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole Churche as are those which are called Elders or they which take charge of one parte of the Churche whiche is the poore of euery Churche as are those which are called Deacons Those agayne that be called Presbyteri which we tearme Elders of the Churche and haue to doe with the whole Churche are eyther those whiche teache and preache the worde of God and gouerne too or else whiche gouerne onely and do not teache or preache Of the first kinde are Pastors and Doctors Or the second are those which are called by the common name of Elders or auncientes Of all this ordinarie function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayde before that they are no vncertayne and vndefinite ministeries but suche as are limitted vnto a certayne Churche and congregation And first of all for the Pastor or Bishop whiche is heere mentioned whiche name soéuer we consider of them they doe foorthwith assoone as they are once eyther spoken or thought of imply and inferre a certayne and definite châ—rge beeing as the Logitians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnlesse he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watcheman vnlesse he haue some citie to looke vnto Or howe can a man be a master vnlesse he haue a seruaunt or a father vnlesse he haue a childe Nowe if you will saye that they haue a charge and they haue flocks and cities to attende and watche vpon for a whole shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their Cities and their charges Io. Whitgifte This diuision also is of your owne inuenting neyther haue you any mention of Seniors as you call them or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi whiche you would haue to be so perfecte a rulè of ecclesiasticall functions As for Pastors and Doctors you knowe that diuers bothe auncient and late writers as namely Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and Bucer c. do confounde them and the reason that Hieroine vseth can not be well denyed because the Apostle sayth not as he dyd before of the other alios Pastores alios Doctores some Pastors Eph. 4. and other some Doctors but he ioyneth them togither and sayth alios Pastores Doctores some Pastors and Doctors M reouer I sée not howe you can iustifie your diuision of Seniors by the worde of God as I shall further declare in that place where Tract 17. you more largely speake of them In the meane time I sée no reason why your vnpreaching and vnministring Seniors shoulde haue any perpetuitie in the Churche more than Apostles for the cause that I haue before alleadged neyther haue you yet proued that the Deacons office is onely to prouide for the poore you haue examples to the contrarie as I haue declared in my Answere To be shorte I vnderstande not howe you can make Doctors gouernours of any seuerall parishes and Churches except you will make them Pastors But bicause you onely speake héere and proue nothing I will differre a further answere vnti l I heare more sounde argumentes You saye a shepheard can not be vnlesse he haue a flocke c. all which is true but he is also a shepheard that hath mo flockes and he is a shepheard that hathe a generall care and ouersight of many shepheards and many flockes For he that hathe many flockes and many shepheards may haue one master shepheard to sée that all the rest doe their duties and that the shéepe be kepte in good order And thoughe euery seuerall Citie haue seuerall watchemen whiche watche by course yet maye there be one that hathe an especiall care ouer all and is appoynted to see the rest do their duties So one master maye haue many seruauntes one father many children Wherefore if you vse this reason to improue the office of a Bishop it lacketh mighte if to proue that a Pastour muste haue a flocke no man dothe denie it but if to conclude that no man maye preache vnlesse he haue a certayne flocke there is no sequele at all in it for first you muste proue that the onely office of a Pastor is nowe remayning in the Churche and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments except he be a Pastor of some certayne flocke for that doe I constantly denie Chapter 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3. First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to eade in all Churches but arrie till they be hyred in one And therfore when the Bishop hath layde his hande of Petitio principij them â–ª they are no more Ministers than before his hande came vpon them bicause they haue no charges and therefore the patrone or person that hireth them to reade and setteth them a worke are their Bishops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the Diocesse Io. Whitgifte These be but words grounded vpon this false principle that none oug te to be admitted into the ministerie but suche as haue a certayne cure and charge which you are neuer able to proue eyther by Scripture or good reason but the contrarie is manyfest by bothe Chapter 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole Diocesse or Prouince or Realme to be their flocke or Citie to attende vpon is contrarie to the pollicie or good husbandrie of all those that woulde eyther haue their Citie safe or their flockes sounde For who are they whyche woulde appoynte one for the watche of a thousande townes or cities when as all they whiche loue their safetie woulde rather haue for euery citie many watchemen
may be admitted into the ministerie except he haue a certayne flocke committed vnto him And that then it is not lawfull for him to preache out of his owne cure These questions woulde be answered and these contrarie spéeches of yours reconciled if it be possible For vndoubtedly they do not agrée with your former talke Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Then had euery flocke his shepheard or else y Act. 14. 23. shepheards Nowe they do not onely runne fisking from place to place a miserable disorder in Gods Church but z Esaie 5. 8. couetously ioyne liuing to liuing making shipwracke 1. Ti. 1. 14. of their owne consciences and beeing but one shephearde nay would to God they were shepheards and not wolues haue many flockes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 50. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. You say also that euery flocke had his shephearde or else shepheards And to proue that one flocke had moe shepheards you cyte Act. 14. which maketh nothing for your purpose yet I deny not but one flocke maye haue moe Pastors for I see nothing in the worde of God agaynst it To be shorte you say nowe they go fisking from place to place and couetously ioyne liuing to liuing c. beeing but one shepheard haue many flockes If you meane by fisking from place to place such as preache in diuers places and not in their owne cures onely your phrase of fisking is to light and scurrilous When you alleadge any reason why men may not goe from place to place to preache where they thinke it necessarie you shall eyther be answered or yeelded to In the meane time I thinke it agreable bothe to Gods worde and conscience Agaynst couetously ioyning of liuing to liuing you alleage the. 5. of Esay which is farre from your purpose for the Prophet speaketh there of suche as oppresse the poore and will not suffer them to haue a place to dwell in yet I do not allowe suche as couetously ioyne liuing to liuing of what kinde or degree of men soeuer they be Io. Whitgifte To the abusing of the. 14. of the Acts by the Admonition nothing is answered by T. C. nor to the. 5. of Esay Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 51. Sect. 1. But I see no cause why one good and diligent Pastor may not rather be credited with moe flockes than a slothfull vnskilfull or negligent with one You thinke I suppose that there be dyuers parishes in Englande which might be ioyned in one and so committed to one man and why may they not be so in like manner when they be distinct T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 1. And heerevpon also is ended another question that the Answerer maketh whether one may haue many flockes which is whether one shepheard may be many shepheards one watcheman many watchemen For if his residence be necessarie in one place then he oughte to content hym selfe with one Io. Whitgifte My question is this why one man may not aswell haue diuers parishes when they be distinct as he may when they be ioyned togither for the compasse the number and the distance of place is all one you confesse Pa. 34. lin 10. that the one may be and the reformed Churches in Fraunce dyd so vse it where as I am credibly enformed and you before séeme to affirme sixe Townes or mo were committed to one Pastor This béeing lawfull I sée not why the other shoulde not be so in like maner neither haue you answered to any one worde in this parte Chapter 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 51. Sect. 2. I speake not this to encourage any man to take more vpon him than with a good conscience he may well discharge And I woulde wishe you to absteyne from iudging too farre when you see a man that hath mo liuings vse himselfe vprightly and carefully in them all and otherwyse profitably to the whole Churche T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 2. And whereas you would haue men charitably iudge of those whiche take many liuinges ▪ surely if so be that he taketh many flockes not to the intent to haue more liuing to maynteyne an ambicious pompe or to satisfie a greedie desire of hauing more than inoughe but to this ende that he may bring in a more plentifull haruest vnto the Lorde it were good that he would be content to take but that liuing of all his flockes which he nowe hath of one especially where one is able to keepe and maynteyne him and his familie honestly Else let him heare what (*) you mighte haue spoken in the singular num ber for any pl ralitie you 〈◊〉 vsed Councels others haue thought of those which haue more benefices than one Io. Whitgifte You kéepe no order in answering my booke but place and displace at your pleasure onely to this ende as it should séeme that you would not haue your Reader perceyue what you omitted vnanswered But I will followe you and examine what Councels and other haue thought of suche as haue more benefites than one for in this portion you vtter but words and take vpon you to iudge mens intents and purposes and to prescribe them their stipende Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 3. In the. 15. Canon of the Councell of (a) T. C. vseth most corrupte Councell for his defense Nice it is commaunded that no clearke should be placed in two Churches and he addeth the reasons wherof the first is that it is a poynt of marchaundise Mat. 6. and of filthy gayne The seconde that * no man can serue two masters The thirde 1. Cor. 7. that euery one ought to * tarrie in that calling wherin he is called Io. Whitgifte T. C. alleageth the secōd Councell of Nice to dete mine controuersies It should séeme that you woulde gladly make men beléeue and it is very like that you your selfe are also persuaded that this Councel was the first Councel of Nice For else why doe you in the nexte section place Damasus and name the second tome of the Councels when as Damasus was long time before this your Councell of Nice and the same Councell is in the seconde tome of the Councels Least therefore the Reader may be deceyued I let him to vnderstand that this Canon héere by you alleaged is a Canon of the seconde Councell of Nice holden about Anno. 795. or 781. and one of the corruptest Councels that euer was wherein not onely praying to Saincts adoring of Reliques but also worshipping of Images c. was confirmed But yet let vs examine this Canon of that Councell In the ende of that same The Canon of the seconde Councell of Nice examined Canon it is thus written Et haec quidem in hac regia ciuitate in his autem quae extra sunt locis propter hominum inopiam permi titur And these things are to
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
authoritie he woulde be loth to reiecte I am sure least he shoulde lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the olde writers which he hunteth so diligently after in this booke wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonitiō so great contemners And it is not hard to shew the same in twentie places more as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke where as there are diuers things not to be followed of the ministers now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the ministers that nowe are as they were then eyther to the. 12. or 70. disciples Io. Whitgifte And of those circumstances wherof there is no comm̄aundement howe proue you whiche be indifferent whych be vnlawful or not conueniēt to be followed which necessary why is it not as necessarie by this example of Iohn that they shoulde be baptized in Ioroane or that they shoulde confesse their synnes before they be baptized as it is that they shoulde bée publikely baptised If you take vppon you to interprete without authoritie and grounde ofscripture it is méete that you should shew verie good and substanciall reason I demaunde the lyke touching the places alleadged out of the Acts where you reteyn what you list refuse what you list alter as you list as though you were lorde ouer the Scripture and had omnia iura tam diuina quà m humana in scrinio pectoris all lawes as wel diuine as humane in the coffer of your breast lyke to the Pope But to these places of the Actes I haue answered in their due place Your s ffes make not your cause one whit the better Of twentie places you recite not one And of diuers things some indifferent some not to be followed other some comaunded to all ministers spoken to the twelue or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none speaking without ground or reason is but pratling I knowe that in one action there be diuers circumstances of diuers conditions and natures but if any of them be necessarie at all tymes to be obseiued the Necessarie cir cumstāces are commaunded same is conteyned in some commaundement in the Scriptures and therfore well sayth Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius is then strong when as we are able to shewe that that whiche is doone is done according to some rule or commaundement Now if you can shew me either rule or commaundement in scripture that vppon no occasion we may preache or baptise in priuate families I yelde vnto you What examples doe proue without commaundement But if you can not this doe your examples proue what was then done and what in the lyke cause may be doone nowe but they make not any generall and perpetuall rule Nowe touchyng these and suche lyke circumstances in my opinion M Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo maketh a full resolution which may satisfye any reasonable Zuinglius man His wordes be these There is here three errours about circumstances that is the elementes of the worlde The first is of the tyme for they thoughte that baptisme was not rightly administred except it were in the fyrst day for the tyme is of no greate weight so that we take diligent heed of this that none rashly or negligently differre it longer than is conuenient for by this occasion it may come to passe that the baptisme of children might be taken away An other errour is touching the circūstance of the person for they thought that baptisme could not be administred of no other than of a priest when as notwithstanding euery man may minister it euen a woman if necessitie require the thirde errour is in the circumstance of the place bicause it is not necessarie that the insant shoulde only be baptized in the Churche Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptisme was ministred in Cornelius house Actes 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacramentes To the. 1. Cor. II. it is answered before Surely this church of Englande Baptisme an house dothe not permit the sacramentes to be ministred in priuate places except there be a congregation and then not vsually but only in certaine cases T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1. An other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of his arguments For S. Paules baptizing in the house of the Iayler had bene more fit for him for vnto his place it may be easyly answered that Cornelius hauing so greate a familie as it is lyke he had and besydes that dyuers souldiours vnderneathe him and further his frendes and his acquayntance whiche he had called had a competente number and as many as would make a congregation and as could co mmodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to bothe these examples and other such lyke as that S. Paule baptized in the house of Stephana is easy For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the minister nor for the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses whiche otherwyse they would haue done in open places and then those houses whiche receyue the congregation are not as I haue shewed for the time to be counted priuate houses and further in places where the gospell hath not bene receyued nor no churche gathered but one onely householde embracing the Gospel I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where shoulde the Ministers preache or minister the Sacramentes more conueniently than in that house where those professours of the gospell be nowe to drawe this into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the churche and congregation standeth of diuers houscholdes is a token of greate want of iudgement in shuffelyng those things together whyche for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be myngled Io. Whitgifte The example of Peters baptizing in Cornelius house is sufficient to proue that then it was lawful to baptize in priuate families the example of Paul baptizyng the iaylour and his familie proueth the same But it ministreth a more readie answere to a quareller bicause Paul then being prisoner had not such libertie to make cheise of his place as Peter had But they are both verie fit examples for my purpose the bignesse of Cornelius familie or the smalnesse is not materiall to this question for we speake of the place not of the persons And whereas you say that in Cornelius house there was a competent number and as many as would make a congregation I answer that so it is with vs when baptisme is ministred in priuate families for wheresoeuer Math. 18 two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ there is a congregation To your seconde answere of the difference of tyme bicause that was in tyme of
as it hath done from time to time S. August in his epistle Augustine ad Ian. in y e place before of me recited saithe that the passion of Christe his resurrectiō his ascētion the day of the cōming of the holy ghost which we cōmonly call Whitsontide is celebrated not by any cōmaundement written but by the determination of the church And it is the iudgement of al learned writers that the church hath authoritie in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God But of this I haue spoken partly before and intende to speake more largely thereof in the place folowing where you agayn make mention of it Admonition In this booke days are ascribed vnto saincts kept holie with fastes on their euens prescript seruice appointed for them which beside that they are of many superstitiously kepte and obserued and also contrarie to the commaundement (z) Exo. 20. 9. Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. Leuit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God Six days thou shalt labour and therfore we for the superstition that is put in them dare not subscribe to allow them Answer to the Admo pag 173. sect 2. pa. 174. 175. pa. 176. sect 1. 2. Your collection hāgeth not together for how foloweth this these holidays be superstitiously obserued of some therfore you may not allow thē why should other mēs superstition hinder you from lawfully vsing a lawful thing The saboth day is superstitiously vsed of some Abuse of thin ges doth not condemne the things so is y e church so is y e crede the Lords praier many things else and yet I hope you wil subscribe to thē You heap vp a nūber of places in the margent to proue y t which no mā doubteth of y t is this portion of the comandemēt Six days shalt thou labour c. the meaning of which words is this that seing God hath permitted vnto vs six days to do our own works in we ought the seuenth day wholly to serue him Euery mā hath not bodily labour to do but may serue God aswell in these six dayes as in the seuenth And certainly he doth not by any meanes breake this cōmaundement which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serue god ▪ For this is the cōmandemēt Remember that thou kepe holy the Sabboth day as for this Six days thou shalt work is no cōmandement but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth thā to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the seruice of God And it is asmuch as if he should say Sixe days thou mayst worke so do some translate the Hebrewe worde The place alleaged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose ther is not one word there spokē of any holy days dedicate to saints but only the Lord signifieth that their sacrifices feast days wer not acceptable vnto him bicause they were done in hypocrisie without Esay cōdemneth the maner of sacrificing fayth so that he reproueth modum not factum their maner of sacrificing that is their hypocriticall kynde of worshipping him In the seconde of Esdras 1. in the place by you quoted I see not one worde that may serue for your purpose the wordes you quote be these I haue led you through the sea and haue giuen you a sure way Uaine quotation since the beginning I gaue you Moses for a guide and Aaron for a Priest In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holydays but of suche as were obserued among the Iewes and abrogated by the commyng of Chryste And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth that wee whyche bee strong should not despyse them that are weake nor condemne them though they vse not the christian libertie in dayes and meates That in the fourth to the Galat. Ye obserue dayes moneths and tymes and yeares c. Sainct Augustine ad Ianuar. Episto 119. expoundeth Augustine on this sorte Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar quia posterus dies est aut quia luna sic fertur vel proficiscar vt prospera cedant quia ita se habet positio syderum non agam hoc mense commertium quia illa stella mihi agit mensem vel agam quia suscepit mensem I know there be other that do otherwise expounde that place and that truly euen as they doe also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain Iewish feastes as Sabboths newe Moones the feastes of Tabernacles the yeare of Iubilie and such like abrogated by the gospell and yet superstitiously obserued of some But these places cā by no means be vnderstode of the days obserued by vs called ▪ by the names of saintes dayes for they were ordeined since the writing of this epistle And that you may vnderstād the differēce betwixt the festiual days Difference betwixte the Papists holidays ours obserued of the Papists the days allowed now in this Churche it is to be considered First that their Saints days were appointed for the honoring and worshipping of the Saints by whose names they were called oures be ordeined for the honoring of God for publike prayer and edifying the people by readyng the Scriptures and preachyng 2 The Papistes in their Saincts dayes prayed vnto the Sainctes we only pray vnto God in Christes name 3 They had all things done in a strange tong without any edifying at all we haue the prayers and the Scriptures red in a tongue known which can not be without great commoditie to the hearers 4 To be shorte they in obseruing their dayes thinke they merite therby something at Gods handes We in obseruing our days are taught farre otherwyse The Church euen from the beginning hath obserued such feastes as it may appeare in good writers Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fastyng on the euens of suche feastes or rather absteyning from fleshe you know it is not for religion but for policie and as I thinke the same is protested in that Act where suche kynde of absteyning is established And therfore these be but slender quarels picked to disalowe suche a booke Io. Whitgifte All this haue you ouerskipped for what cause you know best your selfe ¶ What kind of preaching is moste effectual Tract 11. The firste Diuision Admonition The fiftenth and sixtenth Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. feeding the flocke diligently nowe teachyng quarterlye then preachyng (o) 1. Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season nowe once in a moneth is thought sufficient if twice it is iudged a worke of supererogation ▪ Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. These be but wordes of pleasure God bee thanked there bee ministers and suche as you mislyke of whiche feede their flocks diligently and preache in tyme and out of tyme according bothe to S. Peters and S. Paules
agaynst ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons examined Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. Sect. 1. Nowe that I haue shewed that the places quoted by the Admonition are for the most parte to the purpose of that they be quoted for I wil adde a reason or two to this purpose before I come to answere to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor Here I must desire the Reader to remember which I sayde before when I spake agaynst non residencie the multitude difficultie of those things which are required of the minister of the word of God And withal I wil leaue to the consideration of euery one the great infirmitie and weaknesse which is in men both the which considerations set togither it will easily appeare howe vnmeete a thing it is that the minister shoulde haue any other charge layde vpon him seeing that it beeing so weightie an office as wyll require all the giftes he hath be they neuer so great it must needes fall out that so muche as he dothe man other calling so muche he leaueth vndone in this Io. Whitgifte The Reader may easily iudge howe fitly they were alleaged in that they néeded your commentarie to teache the application of them which otherwyse woulde haue asked some cunning to make them to serue the turne But as the places be vnfitly quoted by them so are they in déede as slenderly defended by you as may appeare in your Replyes and my Answeres Your first argumēt why ecclesiastical persons may not exercise ciuil offices is this The multitude and difficultie of those things whych are required of the minister are suche and the weaknesse and infirmitie of man so great that the minister can not execute any other offyces c. This had some likelyhoode in it if the minister should execute any office contrarie or repugnant to his ecclesiasticall function But séeing I haue before declared that such ciuill offices as be nowe committed to Bishops and other of the Cleargie be necessarie helpes to their other callings and moste profitable for the good and quiet gouernment of the Churche this argument of it selfe falleth to the grounde But why may you not as well reason thus the multitude and greatnesse of those things that are required of a Christian be suche and the infirmitie and frayltie of man so great that if he did nothing but giue him selfe to spirituall meditation and neuer meddle with worldly affayres he were not able to doe his full duetie therefore no Christian man may practise any suche thing or meddle in worldly and ciuill matters This argument is the roote of Anabaptisme Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. in the midst And what the hande of man is able to reache heerein it is to be considered in the Apostles whome if the office of the ministerie dyd so wholly occupie and set a worke that they could admitte no other charge with it yea and were fayne to cast of that whych they had it is cleare that none of those which lyue nowe can beside that function admit any other publike calling The story is knowne in the Acts that the Apostles euen during the tune that they kept togither at Ierusalem Act. 6. and taught the Churche there were fayne that they might the better attende vnto preaching and praying by which two thyngs S. Luke summarily setteth foorth the office of the ministerie to giue ouer the charge of prouiding for the poore vnto others bycause they were not able to do both Now for so much as the Apostles endued with suche giftes as none haue beene since or shall be hereafter could not discharge togither with the office of the minister that also of the Deacon howe shoulde any man be founde that togither with that office can discharge the office of a ciuill Magistrate And if the Apostles would not haue the office of a Deacon whiche was ecclesiasticall and therefore of the same kynde with the ministerie ioyned vnto it howe muche lesse wyll they suffer that the ministerie should be ioyned with a ciuill offyce and therefore of an other kynde For reason teacheth that there is an easier mingling of those whych are of one kynde than of those whiche are of dyuers kyndes Io. Whitgifte It is euident that the Apostles from the ascention of Christ into heauen vntill Why the Apo stles left of the Deaconship Caluine this time did execute both the office of the Apostles and the office of Deacons also Wherby it is manyfest that these offices may at sometimes méete togither in one and the selfe same person And M. Caluine vpon the. 6. of the Actes sayth That they dyd not altogither caste off this care for the poore sed leuationem quaesijsse vt suo muneri intenti esse possent but that they sought an easing thereof that they might be intentiue vnto their offyce The causes therfore that moued the Apostles to leaue off from executing the one that is the Deaconship is to be considered One cause was the great encrease of the number of Christians whiche was nowe growne to suche a multitude that the Apostles coulde not well both make prouision for the poore and gyue them selues also bothe to preaching and praying An other cause was the murmuring and grudging of the Gretians who thought that the Apostles had more regarde to prouide for their owne countrey men the Iewes than for the Erecians béeing straungers vnto them Wherefore the Apostles béeing willing to eschewe this grudging and repyning dyd for auoyding the suspition of partialitie will the whole multitude to choose them Deacons and both those causes be expressed in the beginning of the. 6. hapter of the Acts. The thirde cause was for that the Apostles knewe that they shoulde shortly be dispersed and that their office was to goe from place to place to plant Churches and preache the Gospell so that they coulde not nowe execute the office of Deacons as they dyd whilest they remayned togither This beeing so as it can not be denied there can be no likely argument gathered of this place that ecclesiasticall persons may not haue some kinde of ciuill functions And if a man well consider howe busie and troublesome an office the Deaconship was at that tyme the Churche béeing in persecution and the number of poore great he shall easily perceyue that there is no comparison betwixt the troublesomnesse of that office then and the ciuill offices nowe committed to ecclesiastical persons which be so farre from hindering their ecclesiasticall functions that they worke the cleane contrarie effect And yet it is certayne that the Apostle S. Paule and Titus with Luke or as some thinke Barnabas did togither with the office of preaching make collections for the poore 2. Corinth 8. Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. somvvhat tovvards the ende Agayne how can we iustly reproue the Papistes for the vse of bothe the swords spirituall an materiall when as we are founde in the same faulte our selues And surely
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of