hee shall thereby incurre the high displeasure of these Rabbies which he shall be sure to haue sticking vpon him vntill they can waite him as good a turne yet I say againe vvhat is left to the magistrat The iniurie is confessed afore There shall need no triall of the fact where so many witnesses may be vsed to prooue his confession afore if now he should denie it All that the magistrat hath to do is to set down what recompense I shall haue for my sayd iniurie and to tax my charges If you say nay hee will heare the cause againe Indeed I confesse he had need to do so But so both I and the partie should be doubly charged and troubled Besides that course would turne to the vtter discredit of the presbyteries that their dealings fitting in the seat of Christ should come to be scanned by those that are but humane ordinations For so some of them by colour of the Apostles words do debase magistracie And therefore peraduenture they will thinke it meet that vpon certificat from them the magistrats should so prōceed to adiudge me a recompense and to rate mine expenses without any further adoo Some such thing it is though not in this very case which the ministers of the low countries haue desired Thus a very graue man borne amongst them reporteth of this matter Ministri nullam habent coërcendi potestatem nec habere volunt Tantùm cupiunt vt magistratus puniant eos qui ipsorum mandatis parere detrectarent Quod nunquam sunt facturi nisi prius de tota causa legitime recognouerint actoribus aut accusatoribus ministris consistorij Quod seniores ministri alienū à suo ministerio esse similiter iudicant In haec absurd a inciderunt propter reiectam episcoporum authoritatē c. The ministers there haue no povver to correct any man neither vvill they haue any Only they desire of the magistrats to punish such as should refuse to obey their cōmandements vvhervnto the magistrats vvil neuer yeeld except they may take notice of the vvhole cause againe by ordinarie course of lavv the ministers of the consistories making thēselues either plaintifs or accusers VVhich the elders and ministers do iudge not to be agreeable to their ministerie And they are fallen into these absurdities he had also before named some other through their reiecting of the authoritie of bishops You see their desire in this case and it may in mine opinion bee stretched to the former And then as I haue shewed through scandales offences consciences and I know not what pretences challenges and counterfait prerogatiues the iurisdiction of their elderships will be so large as the ciuile magistrats iudges and lawyers shall not need to be greatly troubled These things with all the premisses of this chapter considered I dare say you long to know by what authoritie they challenge to deale in all these so many and so infinite causes And to satisfie your longing the learned discourser shall first speake his mind Our sauiour Christ sayth he in the vvord church alludeth to the Ievves Sanedrim vvhich had the hearing and determining of all difficult matters amongst them the like vvhereof he vvilled to be established in his church for administration of gouernment What you will say but weightie matters How come they now to al matters euen to Robin-hood maigames and may poles Ye say truly but Cartvvright will supply this defect For indeed this discourser shot many bowes too short This vvas the policie and discipline of the Ievves and of the sinagogue saith he from vvhence our sauiour tooke this and translated it vnto this church that vvhen any man had done any thing that they held for a fault that then the same vvas punished and censured by the elders of the church And M. Beza Quod ius fuit Synagogae sub lege cur non valeat in ecclesia sub euangelio authore Christo Math. 18.17 non video I see not why the same authoritie that the Synagogue had vnder the lawe shoulde not continue now in the Church vnder the Gospell according to Christs institution in the chapter mentioned Indeede if Christ haue ordained any such matter it is good reason it should bee so But because they will needs bring vs to the Iewes let vs see what prettie tales they will tell vs of those times They say and it is true that the Priests were the Lawyers of the land And would they be so now If the same pollicie continue why should they not They tell vs further that in ciuill causes when there did arise anie doubt in law amongst the Iudges the decision thereof did belong to the Priests iurisdiction If that also were a good pollicie and that it be continued by Christ then I see no reason why it should not againe be now established in all places They say that the 17. of Deuteronomie from the beginning of the eight verse vnto the ende of the thirteenth doth intreat of the ecclesiasticall Senate where it is said that iudgements betweene bloud and bloud between plea and plea c. did belong to the priestes and that it was death for any man not to rest in his determination If this pollicie be in like manner continued who then in the common-wealth but the ecclesiasticall Elderships Matters of bloud and of all pleas Who would not take those points to be more ciuil causes It is true But they tell vs that when the priests dealt in any of those causes they dealt not in them ciuilly but ecclesiastically It will trouble a man to find out their sleights But one example to this purpose you shall haue When such a doubt did rise saith Beza Non de facto Not of the facte for that was meere ciuill but Deiure what the law was in such a case then the Ecclesiasticall Eldership determined thereof and that doone the ciuill Iudge gaue sentence of the facte accordingly As though there should be two Courts in Westminster hall one for matters of fact in ciuill and criminall causes consisting of temporall Iudges and another for matters of Conscience for all sortes of offences and for matters of lawe consisting of ecclesiasticall persons some Pastors and Doctors assisted in solemn maner with their church Aldermen Suppose then I pray you that you are by chaunce in Westminster hall such a difficult matter in lawe as is pretended commeth before the Iudges of some fact whereupon downe they come from their seats and go to the Elders May it please your Maisterships there is such a cause before vs which seemeth to be a foule matter if it fall out as the bill or declaration is laid what is the law in this point The Elders consult together resolue them The Iudges giue them a legge returne to their places the cause falleth out according to the complaint and so they pronounce the sentence as the Aldermen taught them Suppose I say all these things
therefore we confesse that their subiectes ought to obey their ciuile commaundements which may be kept without the breach of Gods law and that not onely for feare but also for conscience sake Thus farre Zanchius whose iudgement in this pointe will be esteemed of I suppose hereafter when all that either is or can be sayd by any man to the contrary will fall to the ground or vanish like smoake If it be saide that Zanchius writeth truely but that my allegation of his wordes is altogether impertinent for that the Bishops of Geneua had neuer any setled right in the ciuile gouernement of that citty I am not the man that will either iustify mine owne discretion or impugne any thinge which may bee brought for the ciuile proceedinges of that state or of any other so as they carry no false groundes of Diuinity with them which may prooue daungerous vnto our owne such as haue bene since published for the authorizing of subiectes in many cases to depose their Princes Christ refused to be a deuider of priuate mens inheritances and then surely it doth not become me to be a decider of any titles to countries citties or kingdomes I pray for all and will not further meddle with any Now it remaineth that hauing made relation vnto you of the premises as you haue heard I should also acquaint you more particularly with the alteration that was made at Geneua in the order and forme of the gouernemente of the Church Wherein you shall finde some greater variety both of actions and pollicy M. Beza speaking of the reformation of religion in that citty sayth that Christes Gospell was established there mirabiliter wonderously A wonder the common saying is doth last but nine dayes but that wonderfull course which he speaketh of will not bee forgotten I suppose in hast As you haue heard that the Bishop of Geneua was dealt withall for the principality of that City so was he vsed as touching his Bishopricke The Ministers cryed out that his Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction was as vnlawfull as his ciuile Wherevpon the Bishopricke was dissolued and that forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement vtterly abolished whereby that citty had bene ruled in church-Church-causes from the time that first it receiued the profession of christianity Together with the ouerthrow of which Bishopricke all the orders constitution and lawes of the Church which had beene in framing by all the learned men in christendome euer since the Apostles times were at one stroake quite chopte of and wholy abrogated vnder pretence forsooth of the name of cannon lawes the popes lawes and I wot not what Wherein the ministers dealt as wisely in mine opinion as if some king succeeding fower or fiue of his predecessors whome he hated should therevpon ouerthrow all the lawes that eyther they or any other of his predecessors had euer made before him Maister Caluin being charged by some as it seemeth with the rashnesse which was vsed at Geneua in this point doth excuse it thus in effect vz. that they deale therein as men doe with rotten houses they ouerthrewe all the whole forme of ecclesiasticall building as once as it were into a rude heape out of the which they might the better make choyse and take of that olde stuffe as much as liked them to build withall againe afterward Indeede there are many builders in these dayes of such a kinde of humor Nothing will content them but that they build themselues And therein also they are very inconstant Now this must downe now that must vppe now this must bee chaunged and that must bee enlarged here the workemen mistooke me this is not in good proportion away with it I will haue this square chaunged into a rounde and this rounde altered into a square A fitter metaphore could not well haue beene found to haue shewed the vnstayed minds of such manner of reformers But to proceed The auncient forme of ecclesiasticall gouernement with all the Elders thereof being thus ouerturned as the citezens in the framing of their newe ciuill gouernement had an especiall eye to the manner of the ciuill gouernement of their neighbour citties and states adioyning so had both the magistrates and the ministers at the first also great regard of the ecclesiasticall pollicy in the same citties relying principally vppon their forme of Church-gouernement and vppon their orders and ceremonyes in that behalfe prouided But this Church Modell was also shortly after wholy misliked For the ministers perceiued that as they thought the ciuill magistrats had too great authorie giuen vnto them in church-causes that they themselues had a great deale too little Maister Caluin speaking of this manner of reformation calleth it but a correcting of the Church And Beza yeeldeth a reason why Farellus Viretus contented thēselues with such a simple Church-gouernement vz. in effecte to my vnderstanding not that they were ignorant what insufficiency there was in it but because in such a hurly burly and great chaunge of things they could haue no better and afterwardes when they woulde faine haue bettered themselues the rest of the ministers that should haue ioyned with them therein were fearefull to attempt so soone any new alteration The same yeare that Geneua was assaulted vz. 1 5 3 6. Maister Caluin came thether and was there admitted non concionator tantum hoc enim primum recusarat sed etiam sacrarum liter arum doctor not onely for their preacher for he had refused that before but also for a doctor of the holy scriptures In which place hee was scarcely warme when like a man of courage reiecting all feare hee tooke in hand to frame a new platforme for the gouernement of that Church or as Maister Bezaes word is ecclesiam componere to compound the Church being of likelyhood before in his opinion tanquam dissoluta scopa as a dissolute Chaos and vndigested bundell And in very short time hee did so farre prouaile therein as that hee caused the cittizens being assembled together to abiure their former popish gouernement as they termed it by Bishops and to sweare to a certaine draught of discipline paucis capitibus comprehensam comprehended as Beza saith vnder a fewe heades What the forme of this draught was I finde it not any where mentioned But whatsoeuer it was it appeareth that both he Farellus and Viretus so vsed themselues in the administration of it as that the rest of the ministers and the chiefest of the cittie grew quickly very weary of it For through their rough dealing in diuers pointes especially in opposing themselues against the orders of Berne before that time receiued there and particularly for their obstinate refusing to administer the Lordes supper with vnleauened bread according to a resolution giuen to that effecte by a Synode at Lausanna of the ministers of Berne which resolution since Beza calleth iniquissimum decretum for these and such like causes I say they were al three of them within nine monethes after
or Church-rulers They that dare propound such ridiculous things as these are defend thē may say maintaine what they list Shomakers Peuterers Barbers Pinners Pointers Painters being chosen to be of this synagogue to become presently therby our pastors leaders watchmē of our souls Christs vicars Gods prelats Bishops Archbishops continuing their occupations hauing nothing to doe with the word sacraments would haue been accounted by all the auncient Fathers to haue beene rather the conceit of some frantike madde men than of any that had either learning or iudgement CHAP. XII They cannot agree where to find their Elders qualities described I Thinke it can hardly be shewed in the scriptures that God himselfe did euer ordaine any speciall officers either ecclesiastical or ciuill but he likewise appointed what maner of men they should bee in respect of their abilities and vertues for their faythfull discharging of them Which maketh mee more than to suspect that these pretended Elders for all the outcries made in their behalfe to be indeed but counterfaits in that they cannot agree among themselues where they are described The forme of praier made at Geneua and practised in Scotland and with diuers alterations offered not long since to haue beene by parliament established in England others that follow them do thus describe them The Elders must bee men of good life and godly conuersation without blame and all suspition carefull for the flocke wise and aboue all things fearing God And for all these qualities the chiefe place alledged as I thinke is out of Numbers where it is saide That God appointed Moses to choose 70. men of the Elders of Israell to beare the burthen of the people with him which Moses hauing performed the Lord according to his former promise tooke of the spirite which was in Moses and put it vpon the 70. ancient men when the spirit rested vpon them they prophecied and did not cease Out of which words I find nothing for thē except they wil haue them Prophets But I do here dispute nothing let thē speak for thēselues Welsurely then saith a discouerer of vntruths that came lately from Scotland They are ignoraunt in the cause of Christes gouernment that will affirme these were Ecclesiasticall officers The very place it selfe and all the circumstances thereof doe prooue them ciuile And where it is said that the seuenty Elders prophecied it can no more prooue them to belonge to the gouernement of the Church then the like gift bestowed vpon Saul can make him a Church officer Bannosius he relieth not vppon the booke of Numbers for this matter but if you will be content with Exodus he can fet thē thence with a wet finger marry you must haue it by way of collection Si ex praecepto Domini c. If by the Lords commandement the gouernours of the common wealth of the Hebrewes were men of courage fearing God men dealinge truely hating coueteousnes multo magis tales esse debent Presbyteri c. Much more these Elders ought to be such valiant men In good time And other place out of the old Testament for this purpose he nameth not any which sheweth he was brought to a very low ebbe There is a description of the visible Church which they say was printed at Rochell Wherein these Elders are thus described They must be of iudgment and wisedome endued with the sprite of God able to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea c and to that end besides the place of Numbers mentioned they quote another out of the Chronicles where Iehosophat speaking of the iudges of the high Court for all causes at Ierusalem saith thus shall yee doe in the seat of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart and in euery cause that shall come vnto you from your brethren that dwell in theyr cities betweene bloud and bloud betweene lawe and precept statutes and iudgement yee shall iudg them Where I note the warines of these fellowes in attributing vnto their Elders Commission to discerne betweene cause and cause plea and plea that they leaue out purposely betweene bloud and bloud c. For the which Beza will not giue them any thankes at all hauing deuised a tricke as after it shall appeare how they may deale in those matters aswell as in the other Indeed in all alike But this place rather serueth to shew their opinions what causes the Elders are to be Iudges in then to describe their qualities otherwise then that they must be faithfull men They will play smal play befor they sit out And thus you haue what they bring to this end for ought I finde out of the old Testament with such good agreement as hath beene declared Which causeth me to imagin that the Lord neuer thought of any such officers in the time of the Law For if he had Moses surely in mine opiniō would haue described their qualities aswell as he did the 70. Iudges and other officers to diuers purposes by him appointed and not haue lefte them especially such noble Prelates and Cherubins to be described in this sort hit I misse I by gesse But peraduenture there are more pregnant places in the new Testament to supply some want in Moyses whereuppon they doe iumpe with one consent and good agreement together I would be glad to see that but he liueth not I am perswaded that shall euer see it When proude men dissent they are hardly reconciled in matters of wit and learning Let vs try them The qualities required to bee in an Elder are sette downe by the Apostle in the Epistle to Titus saith Bannosius and some others in these wordes thus in effect An Elder must be vnreprouable the husbande of one wife hauing faithfull children which are not slaundered of riotte neyther are disobedient not frowarde not angry not giuen to wine no striker not giuen to filthy lucre but harbarous one that loueth goodnesse wise righteous holy temperate c. Nay sayth Caluin though there be two kindes of Elders yet contextus statim ostendit hic non alios quà m Doctores intelligi hoc est qui ad docendum ordinabantur The Text doth shew that here no other are to be vnderstood but Doctors that is those that were ordayned to teach With Bannosius agreeth Iunius and with Caluin Cartwright So that as yet we haue no certainty But let Beza be heard and then all shall be well You shall heare both Beza and Iunius iointly They are out of all doubt that where the Apostle in his Epistle to Timothy doth describe the qualities which are required in a Bishop there also and in the same wordes he setteth out the Elder in like maner For that the word Bishop doth cōprehend in that place both a Minister of the word and the ruling Elder also Now then we haue him and because we haue beene so long seeking for him you shall haue him at
in their printed Supplication against all the new Iulianistes and Atheists mentioned CHAP. XXII They take from Christian Princes and ascribe to their pretended regiment the supreme and immediate authority vnder Christ in causes Ecclesiasticall IN the beginning of the reformation of Religion in Germany the learned men there opposing themselues verie mightely against the Popes vsurped iurisdiction did verie learnedly and soundlie shew and proue to their aduersaries the soueraigne authority of Christian Kinges and Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall within their owne dominions and countries Which authoritie vppon the banishment of the Pope as well there as after also in England was both there and here vnited by diuerse laws vnto the interest of their Crowns and to the lawfull right of ciuile regiment This doctrine since that time hath beene so very throughly maintained by sundrie notable men as Brentius against Asoto Bishop Horne against Fecknam Bishop Iuell against Harding and many other learned men against such other Papistes as haue taken vppon them to impugne it that I am perswaded had it not beene that newe aduersaries did rise opposed themselues in the matter the Papists before this time had beene vtterlie subdued For either vppon the attempt in Geneua for the erecting of the Consistorian gouernment which cannot endure any superior authority ouer it in causes Ecclesiasticall when Caluin and Viretus were banished the Citty or else vppon their restitution and after they had preuailed in their said attempt the Ministers there whether in reuenge of their banishment or least their Magistrats should at any time to come giue eare to the aforesaide Doctrine I will not saye but vppon some such occasion they did presentlie thrust themselues into this question that with such spitefull railing and bitternes as though they had conspired with the Pope and his Proctors against al other reformed churches that reiecting their pretended Discipline or new Papacie indeed had submitted themselues vnto the said lawfull authority of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall And hereof it came to speake the trueth plainelie that Caluin could not abide that King Henrye the eight should bee tearmed the head or supreme gouernour in Earth of the Churches of God within his Dominions And writing to one Myconius how certaine men in Geneua perswaded the Magistrates there Ne potestate quam illis Deus contulisset se abdicaerent that they woulde not depriue themselues of that authoritie which God had giuen them he tearmeth them according to the Consistorian language prophane spirites and mad men whom saith he if we speaking of himselfe and his fellowes shall ioine together to encounter and with a valiant and inuincible zeale fight for that holy authority vz. CoÌ„sistorian c the Lord with the breath of his mouth will destroy The saide Myconius in like sorte reporteth to Caluin from Basill how some in those borders did write to the like purpose in the behalfe of Christian Magistrates alledging the examples of Moises Dauid and other godlye Kinges which saith hee in effect is to make them Popes and then addeth quid si laici huiusmodi argumentis fuerint persuasi what if lay men shall be perswaded by such argumentes Indeede that will cutte the throate of all your soueraigntie But of all others that haue opposed themselues to Christian Princes in this matter besides Martin-Marre-Prelate and some such like companions amongest vs Viretus for rayling scoffing and biting passeth and excelleth Those that stand in defence of the Magistrates authoritie he resembleth to white Diuels and saith They are false Christians though they couer themselues with the cloake of the Gospell and the reformation of the same And againe The Ministers that haue forsaken the Romish Church in seeking to get the Magistrates and peoples fauour against the Pope Priestes and Monkes haue so despised the state of Priestood and Ministery of the Church and so magnified the state of the Magistrate that they now feele the fruict thereof he meaneth that the goods of the Church are thereby gone and wasted Further saith he they thought it a goodby reformation in the Churche to abolishe all the Canons and decrees with the good Statutes which the auncient Fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned to maintaine good Discipline in the Church They haue put all into the Magistrates handes and haue made them maisters of the Church which he tearmeth to be nothing else but the changing of the Popedome the taking away of both swordes from the Pope and giuing them to Princes the euerthrowing of a spirituall Pope and setting vppe a temporall Pope which vnder another colour will all come to one end Nay hee taketh vppon him to prooue that these Temporall Popes as hee tearmeth them are more to bee feared if they take roote and will be worse theâ— the Spirituall Popes and that so the olde Popishe â—yr 〈◊〉 is not taken awaie but onely changed and disguised And his reasons are First that the olde Pope had not the Temporall sworde in his own hand to punishe with death but was fayne to praye aide of the secular power which the neâ—e Pope's need not to doe Secondly that the olde Popes had some regarde in their dealinges of Councelles Synodes and aunciente Canons c. but the newe Popes will doe what they list without any Ecclesiasticall order bee it right or wronge Thirdlye because it chaunceth ofte that these newâ— Popes haue neither learning nor knowledge and yet these shall bee they that shall commaund Ministers and Preachers what they list on paine of their sworde and ministerie and shall appoint them lawes touching their estate and ministery and likewise to the whole Church Giue him also the hearing a little further I praie you Who so vseth such meanes to reforme the fault of the Pope doth not reforme the Church but deforme is more then it was before c. This I dare say that I see already in some places that vnder title of reformation by the Gospell some christian Princes haue in ten or twentie yeares vsurped more tyranny ouer the Churches in their Dominions then euer the Pope and his adherentes did in sixe hundred yeares And lastly If there be any Magistrates in these daies which vnder the title of authority and power that God hath giuen them c. will make the Ministers of the Church subiect vnto them as the Pope hath made them subiect to him and his c. the same doe verily set vp a newe Pope changing onely his coate and maske And thus far Viretus in his thirde Dialogue of white Diuels which was not written I feare by the instinct of anie good spirite nor without some euill direction translated into English of purpose to seede the seditious fier that our turbulent Copper-smiths following this Dâ—sciplinarie tract haue kindled alreadie amongest vs. I haue omitted his earnestnes in the behalfe of his own and Caluins Discipline that the authority thus denied to Princes might be yeelded to them and
hands the carefull charge or procuration of Churches as pertaining to their dutie Good Kings and Princes do maintain true religion and by the aduise of their priests vvhen any great defections happen do pull dovvn the false And where Cartvvright doth charge the Papists to constraine their Princes for the keeping of their decrees be they good or bad although it be true in deed that they do so and that those of his owne stampe likewise vvhere they raigne are nothing more fauourable vnto them as farre as their might will reach yet as he doth in this matter prefer himselfe and his adherents before them it is but a meere cauil For the Papists holding this ground that their Councels and Popes in such their decrees and conclusions as it pleaseth them to make cannot erre that being graunted it followeth of necessitie that euery Christian Prince ought to put them in execution and to punish those that shall oppose themselues against them So that vvhatsoeuer they do impose vpon the Church they affirme it is good euen as Cartvvright doth his discipline which he would intrude vpon vs both of them ioining in this point that as wel Cartvvrights new ministery as the popes priesthood will be the iudges of their owne decrees whether they be good or bad and then what leaue they to the Christian magistrat more the one sort then the other Surely this wall riseth very slowly as yet but peraduenture the third part will be higher thē the other two when you haue viewed them iudge Our meaning is not sayth Cartvvright vtterly to seclude the magistrat out of our church-meetings for often times a simple man as the prouerbe sayth the Gardiner hath spoken to good purpose c. He may be assistant and haue his voice in such assemblies Out of question you deale very bountifully with your soueraign But to helpe him in building this part of his wall I will set downe what is the vttermost that he yeeldeth to herein if hee haue not retracted the same as afterward it shall be considered The Prince may call a councell of the ministerie and appoint both the time and the houres for the same The ciuile magistrat is not vtterly to be excluded from such assemblies as do meet for the deciding of church-causes and orders he may be there assistant and haue his voice but he may not be either moderator there nor determiner nor iudge Neither may the orders or decrees there made be sayd to haue bene done by the Princes authoritie And therefore in times past the cannons of councels vvere not called the Emperors but the Bishops decrees Princes may be assistant in councels and ought to defend the same assembled if any behaue themselues there tumultuously or othervvise disorderly the Prince may punish him The Prince ought to confirme the decrees of such councels to see the decrees executed and to punish the contemners of them Thus hereof Cartvvright and now come in the papists It vvas lavvfull in times past for emperors to call councels to appoint both time and place for the same And maister Harding confesseth that princes may do so still by the aduise of the clergie Princes and their embassadors according to their estates haue most honourable seats in all councels may sit there as assistants giue their aduises make exhortations to the Bishops to be very circumspect and carefull and in the end may subscribe vvith them to the causes there decreed But they may not sit there as iudges moderators or determiners and therfore in their subscriptions they vvrōt not as bishops did definientes subscripsimus but consentientes Neither vvere the councels called Imperatoria but Episcopalia Princes may be assistant in councels Nay sayth Saunders they may be presidents ouer Bishops in councels ad pacem concordiam retinendam vt nullum fieri tumultum permittant tumultuantem vero custodiae mancipent and cause such assemblies to auoid all delaies All Christian princes ought to confirme the decrees of generall councels to see the decrees executed and to punish the contemners of them Compare these places with Cartvvrights words and tell me what great difference ye find betweene them But what if Cartvvright as I sayd haue retracted these points then it must needs be confessed that the Papists do yeeld more to Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical then the puritans CHAP. XXIIII Their disagreement in suppressing the authoritie of Princes in church-causes and in the aduancing of their ovvn IT appeareth in the latter end of the two and twentith chapter how by a fine distinction of raigning vnder Christ as he is onely God and vnder Christ as he is mediator they first would exclude all Christian princes from their lawfull authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall ascribing no more vnto them then as if they were heathens except it be to execute their pleasures and to maintaine them which they say is the dutie also of all the heathen rulers and secondly how by the same distinctiō they lift vp their own horns as if it were so many popes challenging euery one of them together with their elderships to be Christs immediat vicars for church-causes vpon earth In the substance of which doctrine although they do all agree yet when they come to the particular grounds whervpō they would gladly lay their foundations of it there they are distracted and do confound themselues I meane not to enter here any further into this matter then as cōcerning the sayd distinction with the seuerall branches thereof Cartvvright bestoweth soure leaues to prooue that no ciuile magistrat may be called the head of the particular church within his dominion And his cheefest reasons are drawn from the parts of the distinction mentioned Now when he laboureth so much vpon this word head hee knoweth that we meane thereby nothing els but a chiefe authoritie and he wrangleth of purpose that whereas his opinion is direct that no ciuile magistrat as he is a ciuile magistrat hath any office in the Church he might dazle the eies of his reader as though he could bee content to maintaine the right of the crowne and did only insist vpon the word head But to muster them together about the said distinction Cartvvright sayth that our Sauiour Christ as hee is the sonne of God only or as he is onely the Creator and preseruer of mankind coequall vvith his father he is the gouernour of kingdoms and common-vvealths and not as hee is the sauiour and redeemer of mankind But the humble motioner doth tell vs from Scotland another tale peraduenture vpon the credit of the brethren there Christ sayth he hath all povver and superioritie aboue all principalities either in heauen or in earth he is Lord of lords and King of kings and the Prince of kings in the earth he is Lord of all kingdoms and common-vvealths to dispose and rule them at his pleasure
then you perceiue what Bezaes distinction meaneth with what good discretion both hee and his followers will needs make two Courts of that which was but one It is a very great maruel that any wise men should insist vpon these so apparant and childish fooleries In all the Courtes I thinke in the world since there haue beene anie the same that were Iudges of the lawe were Iudges likewise to trie the fact except it be in England And yet heere also euen in the triall of factes by twelue men we haue not two Courts for one matter but all the euidence witnesses and whatsoeuer else that doth appertaine for the finding out of the fact are brought before the Iudges of the law They sift and examine euerie point and circumstance that so the Iurie may bee fully informed and they are indeede the chiefe directors as it is meete in the whole matter And as it is and hath beene in all the worlde so it was in all the Courtes appointed either by Moses or by King Iehosophat in Iewrie It is true that all difficulties that did rise amongst the Iudges of inferior Courts in the country whether they were of law or facts and likewise all appellations from lower Courts did belong to the high Court at Ierusalem to bee heard and determined But doth that proue one Court to bee two Nay it is most apparant that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the Iewes Synedria they may challenge to themselues aswell the ciuill gouernement of the common-wealth as the ecclesiasticall of the church For so was the forme of gouernmeÌ„t then according to the testimonies of scripture of all the Iewes the Rabbines the Talmudists Iosephus others And I greatly doe suspect it that in time they will begin to claime it I find them so wauering and vncertaine in this matter As yet fiâ— they cannot abide to heare of it But obserue them how they stagger Beza in his booke against Erastus whereunto hee himselfe and seuenteene other Ministers of Geneua subscribed and which was the booke indeed that Erastus did confute both he they all of them were in doubt of this point An verò ciuilem aliquam coÌ„eÌ„rtionem habuerit ex iure ecclesiasticum illuà apud Iudaeos synedâ—ion definire vix possumus habuisse tamen posterioribus saltem temporibus negare nec si velimus possumus c. We can scarcely define whether the ecclesiasticall Eldership amongst the Iewes had any authoritie of right to vse ciuill punishments that it had at the least in the later times if we would denie it we cannot It is very well said And then I trust it will be confessed that as long as that authoritie continued hee had beene a fond man that should but once haue dreamed of the former distinction of making one Court two vz. the one of fact and the other of law and of dealing in ciuill causes ecclesiastically or I know not how Yea saith Beza but though they had such authoritie probabile est it is probable that it was procured ambitione maximorum pontificum by the ambition of the high priests How like you this When he is so pressed both by scriptures and with other authoritie that hee cannot chuse but confesse the point in question see how substantially he would seem to auoide it with his Theologicall demonstration Probabile est But that I doe the man no iniurie hee hath an other shift of descant to helpe himselfe herein Though they had any such authoritie exiure by the law saith he yet Hoc nihil ad nos It doth not concerne vs. Why if the same pollicie that the Iewes had bee continued by Christ in his Church how commeth it to passe that this doth nothing concerne vs It is abrogated Belike euen as much and as little of the pollicie must continue as is in force at Geneua But who did abrogate it Christ. Where When hee said Reges gentium dominantur eis vos autem non sic The kinges of the nations beare rule ouer them but it shall not be so with you They seeme to bee much beholden to this peece of scripture it serueth them vnto so many purposes But if they presume in this sort vpon the continuall fauour of it certainly it will leaue them when they least suspect it If the Iewes Eldership had to deale in ciuill causes that Christ had puâ—posed to haue continued that form of gouernment in his Church in all pointes sauing in that he would haue said thus The priests of the Iewes did beare rule ouer them and had to deale in ciuill causes but it shall not be so with you It is to bee wondred ar that Beza should content himselfe with such vnlikely so very improbable conceites But it seemeth that vpon some better aduisement with himself and his fellowe subscribers they grewe all of them ashamed of these shiftes And therefore in his booke of excommunication which hee lately published hee is become in some sort another man Now both he his said felow-Ministers are out of doubt Ex clarissimis testimoniis By most clear testimonies that the authority which the priests had in ciuill causes was gotten by bribes Ex licentia iurisdictionis perturbatione through the libertie and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions which confusion Christus nunquam approbanit Christ neuer approued Ah very well though they haue turned ouer an other lease and for Probabile est do bragge of most cleare testimonies yet concerning Christs wordes they are gone backward For his commandement Vos autem non sic is now turned as you see into Nunquam approbauit which carrieth with it no other force than is ascribed to a negatiue collection But for all their most cleare testimonies he must haue better eyes than mine that can discerne any thing by them sauing their inconstancie and that there is cause to suspect therby as I said that when their credites are increased they will not greatly sticke to breake the bounds of their said distinctions deale as well with matters of fact as of law For els besides all the premisses what meaneth this new ground of Diuinitie published of late in print to the worlde from Geneua Ciuiles quoque lites antequam Christiani essent magistratus vt verisimile est ex Apostolica doctrina amicè citra vllum ferè strepitum componebantur The ciuill contentions before there were any Christian magistrates were compounded as it is likely according to the Apostles doctrine by the Elderships friendly and without any suites of law So as now if this question were once determined whether that may bee lawful when there is a Christian magistrate that is lawfull to bee doone when there is none there should as you see bee no more suites in law for ciuill causes in the lande their Elderships haue intituled themselues vnto them and ingrossed them all by right into their handes You will say it is true that they haue done so indeede if
that question were resolued but that point standeth vppon an if Nay assure yourselues it is past peraduenture they would take it in great scorne that such a matter should rest vndecided Where it is held by the Churches of Heluetia that such Elderships as they of Geneua talke of are needlesse where there is a Christian magistrate and thereupon the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury for disputations sake reasoning that if there were any such Elders then yet it doth not followe they should bee receiued now Cartwright and his schollers are peremptorie that the offices of those Elderships are the rather to bee continued vnder a Christian magistrate And the learned Discourser sayth as confidently in the like case that the same authoritie which the Church had before there was a Christian Magistrate doth still continue when there is one or else as he addeth we would be glad to learne how this authoritie was translated from the Church in which it was once lawfully vsed vnto the ciuill Magistrate Agreeable to both which resolutions is that saying of Trauerse That Heathen Princes being become Christians doe receiue no further increase of their authoritie than they had before while they were in paganisme It is well By these rules then all is theirs They are Kings Princes the very immediate vicegerentes of Iesus Christ vppon earth And good reason they should then haue both the swords nay twenty swords if there were so many And besides seeing they haue to deale in all causes they must haue all lawes in the closets of their brestes at the least authoritate let scientia come by Cartwrights deuise vpon the suddaine into them how it may at leysure But hereof sufficiently Howsoeuer they crie our against our Bishoppes for intermedling with mo matters than they are able to discharge yet you see into what an infinite sea of affaires they would thrust their Elderships allowing generally that in themselues which formerly they haue condemned in others As by the next Chapter it will appeare more plainely vnto you CHAP. XXVI Those things they reprooue as vnlawfull in others they allow in themselues THere is nothing better knowne than with what contempt and bitternesse diuers amongst vs haue written against the authoritie of Bishoppes especially Archbishops and yet I perceiue that if they might attaine to such an authoritie it would bee well enough accepted For thus their Maister Beza writeth What was ordayned in times past concerning the appointing of prouinciall Synodes by the Metropolitane appeareth manifestly by the olde Canons Neither are we the men who if the ruines of Churches were repayred doo thinke eyther that order or some other like vnto it to be reiected So as these two things bee obserued That a tyrannie be not brought againe into the Church as though the holy Ghost were tyed to some certaine seate or person and that all thinges should be doone to edification c. Indeede hee is already the Primate Archbishop or Metropolitane in effect of all the prouince of Geneua or at the least hee easily foresaw that if anie such order should bee restored againe amongst them hee was the onely man for that great preferment When this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the sixt Canon of the Councell of Nice is brought and vrged to proue the authoritie right and iurisdiction of the Bishop of Alexandria ouer the Churches in diuers countries there mentioned then it must signifie nothing in that place if wee shall beleeue Cartwright but onely a dignitie or preheminence in meetings to goe or sit before the rest But if you talke of the power authoritie and iurisdiction of their Eldershippes then sayth Danaeus Vox potestatis in hac disputatione significat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of power signifieth as this Greeke worde doth properly import And what is that Forsooth Ius authoritatem alicuius gubernationis illi traditae id est alicuius reigerendae regendae Right and authoritie of some gouernment giuen vnto such a power that is of the gouernement and rule of some thing Nowe if this worde might haue beene so happie as to haue retained this signification in the sayde Councell of Nice where there is speach of Bishops Cartwright had beene put to his plunge and Bezaes annotation mentioned would not haue helped him a rush There is nothing more vsually obiected against the present estate superioritie and authoritie of Bishoppes than the place of Peter Neque vt dominantes in cleris Not as though yee were Lordes ouer the Clergie And that of Luke 22. Vos autem non sic But you shall not be so And it will not bee admitted in anie wise that wee should expound those places of ambitious affectation of tyrannous practise or of the abuse of such superioritie â—or iurisdiction But if you will speake of the right authoritie and iurisdiction of their Elderships the case is cleane altered There are some as it seemeth beyond the seas who seeing the pride of the consistorian gouernement doe affirme That the power of the Church is onely spirituall and not any external exercise practise and right of any authoritie power and gouernment With this opposition so much derogating from the dignitie of their Elderships Danaeus is mooued and answering that conceit sayth that although the power of the Church ad animarum salutem sit comparata be instituted for the health of soules yet notwithstanding it hath necessarily annexed vnto it an indissoluble band an externall exercise practise and vse iuris gubernationis of lawe and gouernment Against this aunswere replye as it seemeth is made with the same places mentioned that are vrged against our Bishops Whervpon Danaeus to make all thinges cleare addeth these wordes to his former aunswere and publisheth the same from Geneua Nam quod c. Whereas it may bee obiected out of Peter Non dominantes c. Not bearing rule c. And out of Luke Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so Facilè soluitur it is easily aunswered Damnatur enim partim abusus non vsus illius potestatis partim illius cum ciuili confusio for partly the abuse is condemned not the vse of that power and partly the confusion of it with the ciuill power Which is the verie aunswere that wee doe make and approoue beeing extorted from them by Gods good prouidence for the stopping of our mens mouthes who vppon pretence of those places haue opened them so wide against the lawfull authoritie of our Bishops It hath beene greatly grudged-at by these reformers that Bishoppes are allowed to bee of the vpper house of Parliament and saine they would haue them out if they knew how Notwithstanding for ought I can finde they haue enioyed that honourable prerogatiue euer since there was an high Court of Parliament in England And still the worde of God is made the pretence for whatsoeuer they desire so as euer you vnderstand that they
not to expecte for the vnderstanding of those things which are spoken in the Scriptures out of the words themselues sed imponere but to impose a meaning vppon them non referre sed adferre not to deliuer the true sense of them but to bring a sense of their owne not a yeelding to the wordes but a kind of compulsion inforcement or violence offered to make that to seeme to be contained in thē quod ante lectionem praesumpserit intelligendum which they presumed should be vnderstood by them before they read them Whosoeuer doe deale with the Scriptures in this sort well they may speak proud things exalt themselues promise mountaines bragge of the Prophets of Christ of his Apostles and verisimilia mentiri as many such men in former times haue done whereby for a season some may be deceaued but yet as Sainct Cyprian saith mendacia non diu fallunt It will come to passe as alwaies it hath done hitherto that after a short time the couering of their deuises with so many sleights and falshoodes groweth to be detected and then they are paid to their vtter discredite the wages and full hire of such vnrighteous dealing CHAP. XXXII What account the sollicitors for this pretended gouernment doe make each of other WE haue Christ and his Apostles and all the Prophets on our sides we are assured wee see Gods glorie The order that we contend for is that which God hath left the euerlasting truth of God The matters that wee deale in are Gods and we may not for our parts leaue them The matters we deale in are according to the very will of God There is nothing in our bookes that should offend any that either bee or would seeme to be godly Gods cause by vs is truely and faithfully propounded No no Gods cause is the matter why wee are troubled well may they confer and yeelde for neuer shall they ouerthrow the trueth which we vtter It is not possible for vs to conceale the trueth wee can doe nothing against it but for it Wee are the poore seruaunts of God and professors of the Gospell we are the poore little ones of Christ we are the foolish things of the world chosen to confound the wise wee propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teach the writers both olde and new for the most part affirme the examples of the Primitiue Church and of those which are at these daies confirme We stay our selues within the bounds of Gods word wee seeke not to pleasure our selues but the Lord and our bretheren we seeke not the admiration of men we will patiently abide vntill the Lord bring our righteousnes in this behalfe vnto light and our iust dealing as the noone day We are of immortall seede we are the lawfull successors of those men who through faith quenched the violence of fire we are those vnto whom the Lorde made this promise I will not faile thee we may boldly say the Lorde is my helper I will not feare what man can doe vnto me we are the chiefe seruaunts of God most worthy faithfull and painefull Ministers feeders of Christs flocke vnreprooueable modest and watchfull Nowe we the seruauntes of God must reason with you the Proctors of Antichrist Paul spake frankely against superstition so doe these Paul was accounted a foole in the world so are these Paul counted mens traditions dong and drosse so doe these They haue one common cause Paul was persecuted and so are these Our side detesteth sinne and wickednes preaching the gospell with all faithfull diligence Our Ministers quietly suffer all euill at the handes of the Magistrates onely refusing to doe euill at their commaundement as did Iohn Baptist Peter and Iohn the Euangelist professing they must rather obey God then men God knoweth we altogether seeke to doe good There is none of our side God be praised but that he hath some competent knowledge of the Scriptures and in life very honest Ours doe follow Christ and labour so to doe more and more They of the wicked sort take part with their aduersaries but the godly doe ioine with vs. We deserue praise of the law and of the Church of God Our zeal when they raile vnmeasurably is to be measured with the zeale of Moises Elias of the Prophets of Iohn Baptist of Paul of the Apostles of Iohn the elder and of Christ. Indeede there is almost nothing spoken in the Scriptures to the commendation of the true Prophets and Ministers of God or which may well be applied to such as truelie feare the Lord and walke in his waies but they seeme to appropriat the same vnto themselues and their followers with the same faith and sinceritie I feare that one in the Gospell sustaining the person of those which trusted in themselues that they were iust and despised others saide vz. O God I thanke thee that I am not as other men extorcioners vniust adulterers I fast twise in the weeke I giue Tithe of all that euer I possesse There is also another reproofe sette downe by the same Euangelist of such kinde of men which I wish they maie look in time to escape Yee are they which iustifie your selues before men but God knoweth your hearts To whome though for mine owne part I leaue them to be iudged yet I haue thought it meete to let you vnderstand what Barrow and Greenewood not priuately but in Printe haue published of them Two men who peraduenture haue beene themselues of the same minde and integritie that these presentlie are of and by their owne harts they doe take vppon them to iudge of these mens hartes nowe They meaning our English Consistorians are most pernicious deceauers presumptuous shepeheardes chiefe Rabbines Baalmites wretched disciples of Caluin blasing starres and paragons of the Countrye new founde Martins saincts glosing hypocrits with God fasting pharisaicall preachers miserable guides counterfeyt false prophets Sycophants trencher-priests that will cunningly insinuate into some great noble mans house Pharisies in precisenes outward shewes of holynes hypocrisie vaine-glory couetousnes resembling or rather exceeding them Conscience brokers most daungerous and pestilent seducers Sectary precise preachers abalienaters of the harts minds of the people from theyr pastors to draw them to themselues The perfidy and apostacy of these reformists is great The perfidye and treacherye of these miserable guides treacherous watchmen sworne waged marked souldiers of Antichrist garding his verye throne and person building the harlotte a false Church Theyr dealing is counterfeyt and corrupt They intangle poore soules by theyr counterfeyt shewes of holynes grauitie austerenes of manners c. These Scorpions so poyson and sting euerye good Conscience so leauen them with hypocrisie c. that such proselytes as are wonne vnto them become twofolde more the children of hell then they
not past an hower before they had in an other company depraued peraduēture most egregiously And maister Beza you must imagine hath bene an old courtier and knoweth wel what policie meaneth Plaine dealing certainly is best but often-times it falleth out that it is not the readiest way for hammering and busie farre reaching heads to compasse their purposes If this excuse do seeme too simple let any that list make a better No man doth wish it more heartily as I thinke then my selfe that maister Beza should thinke well of the present church-gouernment established in England so he do it plainly faithfully and directly which will not happen I feare it in hast Neither haue I alleaged his former words to that purpose as though I tooke all that for gold which he can make to glister The point I prosecute is this that you might perceaue how they begin to leaue off from vrging the Geneuian platforme with such important necessitie as formerly they haue done But most of all it pleaseth me to see how maister Cartvvright draweth homeward For as the Anabaptists by their madnesse kept maister Caluin within some good compas and as maister Beza hath bene compelled in some sort to retire himselfe from his former eagernesse so assuredly the phrenetical giddinesse of these our new vnbrideled schismatickes who for pretended puritie are many degrees beyond al the Sauoyan disciplinariās hath wrought a miracle to my vnderstanding vpon M. Cartvvright For heare him how for feare of falling into flat Donatisme he was fain to plead against one that had bene his scholer in the behalfe of the church of England so bitterly before by himselfe impugned The ordinarie assemblies sayth he of those vvhich professe the gospell in England are the churches of Christ which he proueth in this sort Those assemblies vvhich haue Christ for their head and the same also for their foundatiō are Gods churches Such are the assemblies of England therefore c. Againe they that haue performed vnto them the speciall couenant vvhich the Lord hath made with his churches of pouring his spirit vpon them and putting his vvord into their mouthes are the churches of God but such are the assemblies in England therefore c. Hereunto may be added sayth he further the iudgement of all the churches of Christ in Europe all vvhich giue the right hand of societie in the house of God vnto the assemblies vvhich are in England Againe to prooue that the church of England is the church of God notwithstanding it want the pretended discipline he vseth this distinction that as it is in mans body so is it in this matter there are certaine parts essentiall and such as vvithout the vvhich a man cannot stand and some seruing either to his comlinesse or to his continuance And of this latter sort he maketh the discipline and lastly he writeth thus To say that the church of England is not the church of God because it hath not receaued this discipline me thinks is all one vvith this as if a man vvould say It is no citie because it hath no vvall or that it is no vineyard because it hath neither hedge nor ditch Thus farre maister Cartvvright In which his manner of speech you find a very great alteration from his ancient stile And as concerning the necessitie whereof I intreat the wind you see is turned There is no more necessity in England of the Geneua platforme then that euery citie in this realme should be walled about And besides the pretended discipline is become not to be any longer of the essence of the church but as appertaining to the comlinesse of it But how these things will accord with the premises namely his subscriptiō before mentioned to the new booke of discipline where the same discipline is made to be essentiall or whether maister Cartvvright hath changed his iudgement againe since he writ that answer to Harrison I will leaue it to be discussed by them that know his vnreuealed mind better then I do In the meane time that which he hath graunted I thinke it meet to take hold of And this I will adde vnto it that if maister Cartvvright would but conferre with some that haue skill in fortification to know of him whether an old thicke wall of lime and stone made many hundred yeares since or a new sleight wall slubbered ouer and wrought with vntēpered morter some few yeres ago whether I say of these 2 walles are of better defence for any citie I should be in good hope that he would in short time leaue the disciplinarie walles of Geneua and content himselfe with the ancient fortifications of the church of England and the rather because he seeth as I sayd in the former chapter what a giddie and itching humor his nouelties haue bred in the vnstayed sort of many fantasticall people CAP. XXXV Of the pretended commoditie that the elderships vvould bring vvith them and of the small fruits that they bring sorth vvhere they are THat which hath bene sayd of the commendation of this pretended regiment may fitly be applied to this place But now further of the commodities which they say it would bring with it inseparable consequents belike thereof I will trouble you only with three mens testimonies who it seemeth haue collected together that which is thought fit to be published to this purpose If vve had this gouernment God vvould blesse our victuals and satisfie our poore vvith bread hee vvould cloath our priests vvith saluation and his saints should shout for ioy It is best and surest for our state and there is nothing comparable to the establishing of it for her maiesties safetie It vvould make men to increase in vvealth and that they vvould not easily be dravvne after any great man to sedition and rebellion That her Maiesties person hath bene so oft in danger that we haue had some dearth of late yeares and that the Spaniards attempted to inuade this land they ascribe it to the want of this their gouernment It vvould cut off contentions and sutes of lavv c. by censuring the partie that is troublesome and contentious and vvithout reasonable cause vpon euill vvill and stomacke should vex and molest his brother and trouble the countrie If this gouernment vvere restored then you should see learning nourished young and olde called from blindnes to light from wickednes to vertue and pietie Then many woulde change their studies from Law Phisicke Musicke scholing c. and manye would leaue their trades and parentes would thinke theyr cost well bestowed and diuerse waies comforted to preferre their children to the studie of Diuinity Then there woulde be an vnity of the Church Then should the Papist quaile the Anabaptist waile and the Atheistes be amazed There could not bee so many seduced hanged aud quartered as there are Then no licences could steale away mens daughters the people should finde out the trueth and perfection of
priest prophets if they be Christs substitutes as he is a prophet and kings by the same proprietie of speech if they be Christs immediat substitutes as he is a king And so I will go to the next chapter wherby you shall perceaue more particularly that call them as ye list they challenge authoritie like princes or rather popes to deale in many matters CAP. XXV In vvhat causes more particularly their elderships are to deale as they pretend YOu haue heard before of certaine of the seuerall and ioint offices of their counterfeit church-aldermen and likewise in the chapter how they challenge to themselues in their elderships the whole gouernment in all church-causes Now for that it might bee doubted how farre these words Church causes should extend they haue taken great paines to cleare their meaning in that behalfe and so haue vsed the matter to my vnderstanding as that they haue left out no one cause of what nature soeuer but that either directly or indirectly by hooke or crooke they haue brought it vnder their lee and with-within their compasse Read their sayings and then iudge as you see cause All crimes saith Knox that by the lavv of God deserue death deserue also excommunication as vvilfull murderers adulterers sorcerers vvitches coniurers charmers giuers of drinke to destroy children open blasphemers as denyers of the truth raylors against the Sacraments c. And hovv will they proceed in the execution of this censure vpon such manner of sinnes the same order doth specifie A superintendent must direct his letters of summons to the parish church where the offender dvvelleth or if the offender haue no certaine dvvelling place then to the chiefe tovvne and best reformed church in that diocesse vvhere the crime was committed appointing to the offender a certain day and place vvhen vvher he shal appeare before the superintendent his assessors to heare that crime tried as touching the truth of it and to ansvver for himselfe vvhy the sentence of excommunication should not be pronounced against him Here are then new summons and nevv citations Here is authoritie challēged not only to appoint such offices and to vse such iurisdiction but that which seemeth strāge to me indeed to trie a murderer and such like offendors as touching the very facts whether they committed them or not Do they impanall a iurie thinke you as we do in England for triall of the fact or are the elders of the consistorie iudges of the facts as they be of law That is not expressed But what if the partie vpon his summons appeare not That is no great matter Inquisition being taken of the crime he is the next Sunday to be excōmunicated not for his contempt in not appearing but for the very fact it selfe as in their form of excommunication in such cases it is expressed For the inquisition of the crime taken in his wilfull absence shall be a conuiction for his soule let his body escape the temporall magistrats hands as it may This is round dealing A man is condemned of murder and neuer heard for sitting but of one citation in a matter of life and death out goeth their excōmunication Call they this proceeding after the new discipline But to follow this case to the end It happeneth that this murderer is aftervvard pardoned by the magistrat but yet though hee professe repentance he may not be receaued till after fortie daies of triall and vntill hee hath satisfied the kinred and friends of the man that vvas slaine You may say what if they will not be satisfied That I warrant you is prouided for Then ought the church to put moderation to the vnreasonable in case the ciuile magistrat hath not so done before It is very well what the king will not they may Besides when it is sayd that the church ought to put such a moderation you must vnderstand that except the parties do agree to be so put out flieth againe as I suppose their foresaid slipperie censure Againe for all other offences that fall not vnder the ciuile svvord and yet are slanderous and offensiue to the church as fornication drunkennesse vsed svvearing curssed speaking chiding fighting bravvling and common contempt of the order of the church breaking of the sabboth vvāton vain vvords vncomly gestures negligēce in hearing of preaching or obtaining from the Lords table vvhen it is publikely ministred suspicion of auarice or of pride superfluitie or riotousnesse in cheare or raiment c. All these likewise do come by certaine degrees within the compasse of their censures all according to the word of God you must suppose or els you do them wrong Vnto these may be also further added ministers apparell vvomens lasciuious dissolute or too sumptuous attire either publikely or priuatly dauncing all games that bring losse stage-plaies of all sorts haunting of tauerns or tipling houses all inordinat liuers and all such like matters according to the discretion of the eldership cuirelinquenda sunt vvhervnto they are to be left From which discretion it proceeded as I take it that for some disorders committed in Edenburgh about a Robin-hood which the prouost and bailifs would haue staied the vvhole multitude vvere holden excommunicate But yet I haue not done with these causes They grow vpon me more and more And it is no reason that our owne brotherhood of England should be pretermitted They vz. the elderships shall suffer no levvd customs saith the admonitioner to remaine in their parishes either games or othervvise You know their meaning Maipoles Ales maigames moricedances all must downe How doth Robin-hood stick in their stomacks Besides all that haue liued vvith offence to the congregation although they haue suffered the punishment of the lavv for it yet because they offended therby both God the church they are vvithin the limits of the elderships to be censured by them The demōstrator is also very bountiful The office of the church gouernors saith he is to decide controuersies in doctrine and maners so far as pertaineth to conscience and the church censures That is if any shall refuse their said decision they will not indeed whip him or hang him those are ciuile punishments But so farre as the church-censures will reach haue at him Will he run to trouble his neighbour either to the Chancerie to the Kings-bench or cōmon pleas may haue both cōscience and iustice of his eldership at home Such a fellovv shal pay for it It is wisely therfore considered of the humble motioner where he telleth the lords of her maiesties priuie coūsaile that the church is to censure such a partie vvho is apparantly troublesome and contentious and vvithout reasonable cause and vpon meere vvill and stomacke doth vex molest his brother to trouble the countrie Apparātly troublesome that is apparantly to their conceits without reasonable cause vz. to be approued by thē And how can they know how reasonable the cause is except
they examine both the fact and be skilfull also what the law of the land is in such a case Must he bring his learned councel to their Aldermens barre to proue his cause reasonable but what should I moue such a trifling question Well pardon me for it and to make you an amends you shall heare Cartvvrights opinion of these matters It is this vz. that euery fault that tendeth either to the hurt of a mans neighbor or to the hinderance of the glory of God is to be examined and dealt in by the orders of the church This brings before their consistorie of elders all matters of right all pleas reall and personall and all pleas of the crowne as I imagine Snecanus also saith Quoduis peccatum c. Euery sinne is here to be vnderstood both against our neigbor against God howsoeuer it be cōmitted by force or by fraud by vvords or by deeds purposely or ignorantly manifestly or secretly But yet the Demonstrator goeth further Hitherto we haue heard nothing to purpose but only of sinnes committed But he will not abate you an inch of all the sins which the scholemen do call sinnes of omission VVhatsoeuer is enioined saith he as a dutie to be done by euery christian if he leaue it vndone he is to be compelled by the gouernors of the church to do it It is also of a maruellous reach that the admonitioner speaketh of when he affirmeth that by this their discipline euery man may be kept vvithin the limits of his vocatiō Peraduenture it wil be a harder matter then they looke for to be able to discerne of the limits of euery mans calling But if they will needs take so much vpon them because they haue once said it then if any man be he prince or subiect exceed the limits of his calling where their elderships are established it tendeth surely to their condemnation that may reforme him and doe it not But it may be that some wil say we haue heard of Knox of Danaeus of the Demōstrator of the admonitioners of Snecanus of Cartvvright and we know not whom but what sayth Beza of this matter we would be glad to heare him I cannot blame you for you shall be sure that he wil come in with one trick or other beyond his fellowes You haue heard al the sinnes almost that are reckoned vp already as falling within the bounds of the elderships iurisdiction But if we shall beleeue Beza and speake indeed properly as he would haue vs no sinnes as they are sinnes do belong to the elderships to be dealt in but as they are scandala that is as they offend the godly consciences of Gods children For example I heare a man blaspheme God or breake any other cōmandement of the first table or I heare or see him cōmit some sinne against the second table vz against his neighbor as against my self by doing me some iniurie either in word or deed either in my goods or in my name now in this there are offred me 2 kinds of iniuries the first the cheefest is the greefe of conscience that I cōceiue in respect that such a mā hath brokē Gods law therby not only woūded my hart but giuen an ill exāple which may peraduenture corrupt others The second iniurie is by his hurting me in my goods or fame Now forsooth in this second respect I may go to the ciuile magistrat but may not come to the eldership by any degrees but only in the first respect vz. because my neighbor in hurting of me hath violated the law of god so woūded my cōscience Neither must I complaine to the eldership with any mind either to haue him punished or to haue my iniuries recōpensed but only to bring him to repētance to seeke the good of his soule By this deuise you may perceaue that although he seeme in words to dissent frō the rest that haue writtē more bluntly yet in effect he agreeth with thē or rather hath increased their pretēded iurisdiction For by this means they may not only take vpon thē to enter into euery action but they would bind euery particular man whosoeuer to become an informer to their court Besides wheras he sayth that in the said second respect we may go to the ciuile magistrat it is but a mist that he casteth before mens eies For be it in a matter of words that I pretēd my selfe to be greeued and so complaine to their eldership Beza al the rest do hold that the partie cannot passe their fingers vntill he haue submitted and reconciled himselfe vnto me And in such a matter who will desire more For if he looke for damages in monie he will be held cruell And then what is left for the ciuile magistrat Againe my neighbour pretending that I haue done him iniurie either in his lands goods or fame chargeth me with the particulars which being indeed false he saith are true wherupon my conscience being wounded that he should sin so horribly against God first by lying then by iustifying his lie I cōplaine to the consistorie The matter is heard I am cleared And except he submit himselfe both to aske God and mee forgiuenesse the censures of the church proceed against him and so that way also he is debarred from the benefite of temporall law in so much as he can haue no colour to begin sute againe for that wherein hee hath acknowledged me to haue bene by him wrongfully charged What is here then left for the ciuile state to deale in Furthermore in a matter of iniurie done vnto me in my lands or goods I pretend to that court that such a man hath wounded my conscience in breaking Gods commandemēt by such his iniurie offered vnto me well it may be the partie will denie it and then my proofes must be produced If I iustifie my complaint the offender must likewise in this case submit himselfe vnto me and acknowledge the iniurie If hee will not so do the censures proceed and so he is debarred as it is sayd before if hee do then on the other side I must of necessitie forgiue him the offence which greeued my conscience or else I also do come within their compasse Well I do therefore forgiue him and shall I neuerthelesse prosecute him in forme of law for the iniurie done to me Hereunto maister Beza sayth thus Vix potest condonâsse iniuriam dici qui de priuata iniuria fratrem non contentus primùm arguisse deinde adhibitis testibus admonuisse ad magistratus vsque tribunal illum reluctantē persequitur He cā scarsely be sayd to haue forgiuen an iniurie vvho not contenting himselfe to haue first reproued his brother for his priuat iniurie and to haue admonished him before vvitnesses doth notwithstanding dravv him against his vvill to the magistrats seat of iustice But be it as he confesseth afterward that in such a case a man may go to the law to omit that